He had some advantages working in his favor. Cold air, so the plane flies well, and he reacted quickly so he didn't lose too much altitude. Skin of his teeth, but he pulled it off.
The M20C is retractable gear. Could explain the breathing. Looks like he knew his plane and his DECIDE process that day took him back to the airport environment where he even had time and energy to line up to a paved surface. Every scenario is different.
I have choose an altitude prior to take off if engine quits. It varied depending on the airport terrain - were there is more risk, turn might be lower. If there is a safer choice - altitude might be higher. 800' is the min. and the key is dropping the nose and keeping your airspeed up.
I practiced the impossible turn at altitude during my aerobatic rating. Discovered I could do a 180 in 400ft in that aircraft type, allowing 3 seconds for shock factor/recognition. I doubled that altitude to allow for real world conditions and incorporated it in my takeoff safety brief for that type. I think it’s certainly worth doing such an exercise in your aircraft type. I also cannot advocate strongly enough for aerobatic training. Makes you much smoother and more authoritative with the flight controls, confident in the pre and post-stall flight regimes, and improves spin recognition/recovery - all useful skills in a turn back scenario. Oh, and it’s tremendous fun! To be clear, I’m a random internet commenter not advising or recommending one way or the other about the impossible turn - what you choose to do if you’re ever unlucky enough is up to you. But one way or another, strongly recommend aerobatic training, if only for the fun of it.
400 AGL is very reasonable. I often fly even lower every day for work. It just depends on the situation. When I train with people, we work on 270° turns from 300 AGL both up wind and downwind at cruise speed, which is a pretty good emergency simulation for low level utility work.
1000AGL you’ll completely be able to make it back to the runway and probably have to slip it in. And YES, the plane behaves a bit differently when the prop is stationary vs windmilling.
Doesn’t seem worth betting your life on. If you’re talking about Richard McSpadden, he was the former commander of the Thunderbirds and AOPA’s safety guru. Either he was flying or the 9,000+ hour commercial pilot he was with was, and they both lost their lives trying it.
The impossible turn is often anything but impossible. What’s impossible, is trying to do this when the pilot doesn’t know how to properly control the aircraft, especially at low level. I think you’re right, people panic. THAT is the killer. 1000 AGL as you’re suggesting is a piece of cake. 300 AGL starts getting sketchy especially when conducting a 270° turn instead of 180°.
I did practice this once, and I did successfully turn the plane around and land at the departure runway. I don't recall the altitude I started at, but the plane felt super unstable and was sinking like a rock when making the turn. As people have noted, it isn't "impossible" but the odds of success vs the risk of a stall isn't considered worth it. If this is something you practice, and you understand the altitude required and can maintain a stable airspeed, you can train yourself to do this and not stall the plane and injure yourself in the process. But, I wouldn't even attempt it below 1000 feet and having practiced it to the point I knew it would be a high degree chance of success.
A bit of luck- some make it, some don’t. I’ve seen noob pilots make it and tier 1 pilots die. With that in mind, I think best option is straight ahead because if you spin; you’re dead!
It’s difficult to see this as a positive example. There was an easy field straight ahead right when the engine quit, and lots of airport property with no low level banking once he made it back.
If he had landed on the cross runway he would not have had to do those very low level turns - the total required would have been 270 degrees, not the about 400 degrees that he turned (right a lot, left a good bit, then finally right a bit). It is the turn where you lose height, after all.
It depends on a lot of variables to attempt the so called "impossible turn"which is, by the way, not impossible. What is the configuration of the airport, where is the wind coming from and how strong it is, is this a partial loss of power, what is the visibility, what is the temperature (density altitude)...etc. Not all situations are the same. He took the best decision in this case, proof is that he landed back safely. You can bank the plane aggressively, as long as you are not pulling Gs, and keep coordinated or slight opposite rudder during the turn if you are close to stall speed, to prevent a stall spin. Bush pilots do that every day! Learn your plane and how it behaves in slow flight phases will keep you on the safe side of things in case you need to attempt that kind of maneuvers.
Unless the engine has internally locked up, the prop will windmill and cause more drag than a stopped prop. Yes, he was on Bob Hoover's razor's edge. This is not recommended. He could have taken the other runway more safely. When practicing steep turns close to the ground or when they are necessary to survive, keep in mind that airspeed (airplane flying) is far more important than altitude (stall and airplane falling.). Also understand that the airplane cannot stall itself. We tend to blame the critical angle, when the wing stalls, rather than the pilot, what is necessary to cause stall. Notice how the crop duster comes up out of the field, gets slow, turns back (this should be impossible), and the nose immediately goes well down onto the target (the next swath run) fifty feet upwind. He, unlike this Mooney pilot, is not trying to maintain altitude and ride the razor's edge. He is using energy management, the law of the roller coaster, dynamic neural stability, basic airplane flying to make steep turns at 1 g. When you practice your impossible turn, leave the runway downwind at a slight angle to have an upwind radius reducing turn back and a teardrop return to the centerline extended going back. Bank steeper than you think necessary to make the runway so that you will be able to level the wing when very low. You can take some bank angle out later if needed. Immediately release all back pressure as soon as you bank and let the design safety feature of dynamic neural stability work. What does the airplane want to do? The nose will go below the target, the runway or airport property. Take that nose tuck out with a little back pressure now on the yoke. The airplane wants to return to trimmed airspeed quicker than necessary. Now you know weather you will make it and can go for a survivable off field site if not able to make the airport. This technique will not get you as far from as low as this Mooney, but you will not stall in a 1 g 80 degree bank that will give you a quick look. With the engine working and a moderate load, the Pawnee will get you back to the field fifty feet upwind in 16 seconds. Only two of my engine failures started at a thousand feet or so. So I didn't try to return to the field I was spraying after the low ones. I always had zoom reserve airspeed, however, and was able to maneuver to survivable (no damage in most) landing zones. Except in large cities, there are many survivable landing zones.
Enjoying your content! I think you should link the original videos in your descriptions though. Attempting to reproduce the impossible turn from 1000' agl seems unrealistic to me, since in a typical circuit pattern you'd be turning crosswind at 500' - 700', by which point the turn isn't quite as impossible due to the change in direction. I think it's considered impossible because it's usually considered before you reach that point... when you'd be very low?
Bragging about this is like bragging at winning Russian roulette. Mc spaz set the aopa safety standard. He made a video saying it’s possible sometimes and he proved himself wrong.
Well, for my two cents worth, I would advise against your "test". I would, however, suggest a different course that would build to it. First would be, if you have the computer tools of an MSFS as an intro to the subject, and have the settings at the most difficult and accurate so you can see what works and what doesn't, and where wrong moves kill you. Then a next possible step might be in a suitable aircraft, but to go to the approved flight maneuvers training area, fly at altitudes for stall practice and such maneuvers, and practice there. Simply assign a hard floor at a safe recovery altitude, find a road or such as a "runway" then take off and try it there. If you can make the 180 turn and back on the alignment of the road, and at or above your hard floor, you will have a better chance of knowing what is possible, and not. Of course, this exercise would need to be performed in each aircraft you fly in, and include this with all the other currency and skill building work. There are other details you may wish to work on the above, but this is the outline to being prepared with such an emergency, and how to deal with them. Like you mentioned as a key, is immediately get the nose down, configured appropriately, and make use of your best L/D to get the most performance you can (also as a glider pilot you also learn how to use the "back side" of the L/D curve to your advantage in certain situations). As a short side note, is if you can gain access to glider training, it will go a long way in having experience with "power off" no go around landings. This training is, in my mind, critical in that it will reduce levels of panic and replace it with confident experience, which would be important in a life and death situation that requires instant action. So when the power fails, you simply go from a power pilot to a glider pilot and start to seamlessly engage those skills, increasing your odds in your favor for a survivable experience. Well, maybe more than two cents worth, oh well.
@@aagrumpyonetoo9974 all sensible recommendations, although I would advise against using MSFS, as it doesn’t accurately replicate flight dynamics. Good as a procedural trainer, but not for stick and rudder skills. X plane would be better in that respect, though still not perfect.
Yes he had DA and huge skills. Is he an aerobatic guy? But I dont like it cause it says to average pilots... 'go ahead you can do it.' 50 years ago the teaching was straight up ... keep straight ahead and fly into the crash, you spin, ur dead.
He had some advantages working in his favor. Cold air, so the plane flies well, and he reacted quickly so he didn't lose too much altitude. Skin of his teeth, but he pulled it off.
“There it is…push” keep that in your head on every takeoff.
Did the turn with my instructor at around 300 feet in a TMG. Gliders are awesome.
The M20C is retractable gear. Could explain the breathing. Looks like he knew his plane and his DECIDE process that day took him back to the airport environment where he even had time and energy to line up to a paved surface. Every scenario is different.
I have choose an altitude prior to take off if engine quits. It varied depending on the airport terrain - were there is more risk, turn might be lower. If there is a safer choice - altitude might be higher. 800' is the min. and the key is dropping the nose and keeping your airspeed up.
I practiced the impossible turn at altitude during my aerobatic rating. Discovered I could do a 180 in 400ft in that aircraft type, allowing 3 seconds for shock factor/recognition. I doubled that altitude to allow for real world conditions and incorporated it in my takeoff safety brief for that type.
I think it’s certainly worth doing such an exercise in your aircraft type. I also cannot advocate strongly enough for aerobatic training. Makes you much smoother and more authoritative with the flight controls, confident in the pre and post-stall flight regimes, and improves spin recognition/recovery - all useful skills in a turn back scenario. Oh, and it’s tremendous fun!
To be clear, I’m a random internet commenter not advising or recommending one way or the other about the impossible turn - what you choose to do if you’re ever unlucky enough is up to you. But one way or another, strongly recommend aerobatic training, if only for the fun of it.
400 AGL is very reasonable. I often fly even lower every day for work. It just depends on the situation.
When I train with people, we work on 270° turns from 300 AGL both up wind and downwind at cruise speed, which is a pretty good emergency simulation for low level utility work.
1000AGL you’ll completely be able to make it back to the runway and probably have to slip it in. And YES, the plane behaves a bit differently when the prop is stationary vs windmilling.
Training paid off
Really enjoy your channel and commentary. Do be careful while experimenting with the impossible turn that you have planned.
Doesn’t seem worth betting your life on. If you’re talking about Richard McSpadden, he was the former commander of the Thunderbirds and AOPA’s safety guru. Either he was flying or the 9,000+ hour commercial pilot he was with was, and they both lost their lives trying it.
The impossible turn is often anything but impossible. What’s impossible, is trying to do this when the pilot doesn’t know how to properly control the aircraft, especially at low level.
I think you’re right, people panic. THAT is the killer.
1000 AGL as you’re suggesting is a piece of cake. 300 AGL starts getting sketchy especially when conducting a 270° turn instead of 180°.
Your like a comedian but very educational
I believe AOPA safety institute has done a good impossible turn video. I believe that’s the guy you talked about who passed this year.
I did practice this once, and I did successfully turn the plane around and land at the departure runway. I don't recall the altitude I started at, but the plane felt super unstable and was sinking like a rock when making the turn.
As people have noted, it isn't "impossible" but the odds of success vs the risk of a stall isn't considered worth it. If this is something you practice, and you understand the altitude required and can maintain a stable airspeed, you can train yourself to do this and not stall the plane and injure yourself in the process.
But, I wouldn't even attempt it below 1000 feet and having practiced it to the point I knew it would be a high degree chance of success.
A bit of luck- some make it, some don’t. I’ve seen noob pilots make it and tier 1 pilots die. With that in mind, I think best option is straight ahead because if you spin; you’re dead!
It’s difficult to see this as a positive example. There was an easy field straight ahead right when the engine quit, and lots of airport property with no low level banking once he made it back.
That stall horn blaring in that bank over the trees omg. If I didn’t know the outcome I thought he was going to stall. This was insane! Nope.
'Tis but a side slip into landing
If he had landed on the cross runway he would not have had to do those very low level turns - the total required would have been 270 degrees, not the about 400 degrees that he turned (right a lot, left a good bit, then finally right a bit). It is the turn where you lose height, after all.
Would have it been better if the pilot made a left turn to get back to the runway?
It depends on a lot of variables to attempt the so called "impossible turn"which is, by the way, not impossible.
What is the configuration of the airport, where is the wind coming from and how strong it is, is this a partial loss of power, what is the visibility, what is the temperature (density altitude)...etc.
Not all situations are the same. He took the best decision in this case, proof is that he landed back safely.
You can bank the plane aggressively, as long as you are not pulling Gs, and keep coordinated or slight opposite rudder during the turn if you are close to stall speed, to prevent a stall spin. Bush pilots do that every day! Learn your plane and how it behaves in slow flight phases will keep you on the safe side of things in case you need to attempt that kind of maneuvers.
Unless the engine has internally locked up, the prop will windmill and cause more drag than a stopped prop. Yes, he was on Bob Hoover's razor's edge. This is not recommended. He could have taken the other runway more safely. When practicing steep turns close to the ground or when they are necessary to survive, keep in mind that airspeed (airplane flying) is far more important than altitude (stall and airplane falling.). Also understand that the airplane cannot stall itself. We tend to blame the critical angle, when the wing stalls, rather than the pilot, what is necessary to cause stall. Notice how the crop duster comes up out of the field, gets slow, turns back (this should be impossible), and the nose immediately goes well down onto the target (the next swath run) fifty feet upwind. He, unlike this Mooney pilot, is not trying to maintain altitude and ride the razor's edge. He is using energy management, the law of the roller coaster, dynamic neural stability, basic airplane flying to make steep turns at 1 g.
When you practice your impossible turn, leave the runway downwind at a slight angle to have an upwind radius reducing turn back and a teardrop return to the centerline extended going back. Bank steeper than you think necessary to make the runway so that you will be able to level the wing when very low. You can take some bank angle out later if needed. Immediately release all back pressure as soon as you bank and let the design safety feature of dynamic neural stability work. What does the airplane want to do? The nose will go below the target, the runway or airport property. Take that nose tuck out with a little back pressure now on the yoke. The airplane wants to return to trimmed airspeed quicker than necessary. Now you know weather you will make it and can go for a survivable off field site if not able to make the airport.
This technique will not get you as far from as low as this Mooney, but you will not stall in a 1 g 80 degree bank that will give you a quick look. With the engine working and a moderate load, the Pawnee will get you back to the field fifty feet upwind in 16 seconds. Only two of my engine failures started at a thousand feet or so. So I didn't try to return to the field I was spraying after the low ones. I always had zoom reserve airspeed, however, and was able to maneuver to survivable (no damage in most) landing zones. Except in large cities, there are many survivable landing zones.
Enjoying your content! I think you should link the original videos in your descriptions though.
Attempting to reproduce the impossible turn from 1000' agl seems unrealistic to me, since in a typical circuit pattern you'd be turning crosswind at 500' - 700', by which point the turn isn't quite as impossible due to the change in direction. I think it's considered impossible because it's usually considered before you reach that point... when you'd be very low?
Bragging about this is like bragging at winning Russian roulette. Mc spaz set the aopa safety standard. He made a video saying it’s possible sometimes and he proved himself wrong.
Well, for my two cents worth, I would advise against your "test". I would, however, suggest a different course that would build to it.
First would be, if you have the computer tools of an MSFS as an intro to the subject, and have the settings at the most difficult and accurate so you can see what works and what doesn't, and where wrong moves kill you. Then a next possible step might be in a suitable aircraft, but to go to the approved flight maneuvers training area, fly at altitudes for stall practice and such maneuvers, and practice there. Simply assign a hard floor at a safe recovery altitude, find a road or such as a "runway" then take off and try it there. If you can make the 180 turn and back on the alignment of the road, and at or above your hard floor, you will have a better chance of knowing what is possible, and not. Of course, this exercise would need to be performed in each aircraft you fly in, and include this with all the other currency and skill building work. There are other details you may wish to work on the above, but this is the outline to being prepared with such an emergency, and how to deal with them. Like you mentioned as a key, is immediately get the nose down, configured appropriately, and make use of your best L/D to get the most performance you can (also as a glider pilot you also learn how to use the "back side" of the L/D curve to your advantage in certain situations).
As a short side note, is if you can gain access to glider training, it will go a long way in having experience with "power off" no go around landings. This training is, in my mind, critical in that it will reduce levels of panic and replace it with confident experience, which would be important in a life and death situation that requires instant action. So when the power fails, you simply go from a power pilot to a glider pilot and start to seamlessly engage those skills, increasing your odds in your favor for a survivable experience.
Well, maybe more than two cents worth, oh well.
@@aagrumpyonetoo9974 all sensible recommendations, although I would advise against using MSFS, as it doesn’t accurately replicate flight dynamics. Good as a procedural trainer, but not for stick and rudder skills. X plane would be better in that respect, though still not perfect.
Impossible for most aircraft and most pilots…
Yes he had DA and huge skills. Is he an aerobatic guy? But I dont like it cause it says to average pilots... 'go ahead you can do it.' 50 years ago the teaching was straight up ... keep straight ahead and fly into the crash, you spin, ur dead.
Dan gryder has it right.
yikes way off centerline.
This test has already been done :) ruclips.net/video/dFVFKq3QqXo/видео.html