Fake Pinarello Dogma - just how does a fake Dogma ride?
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- Опубликовано: 5 окт 2024
- Fake Pinarello Dogma - the real deal Dogma`s are the finest race bikes in the land, so whats a cheap fake Dogma like in comparison?
Many of you will know that here at vintage velos we love the Dogma (shame its not a bit older and made of steel...) and we jumped at the chance to borrow a fake Pinarello Dogma out for a few hours for some direct comparison - was there a difference between real and fake - hell yeah, there`s a notable difference at times - but, suprisingly, not much at others!
*Note - I do not want to get into wether its right or wrong to purchase a fake bike - thats a totally different video - these fake Dogma`s exist in numbers and are out there on the roads and I wanted to know just what they are like and how to spot a fake one.
#fakedogma
www.vintage-velo.org
I got a fake Dogma F in the rim brake version. Got it to around 7.8kg incl pedals and accessories. I like it a lot. Fastest bike I own. Free of issues after around 8k km. I don’t care how it compares to the real thing. It’s just a nice bike and good enough for me. I’d never put Pinarello decals on it, though. Mine is completely without decals.
Probably a good way of setting up a fake dogma, Dan
My F8 "Chinarello" from 2015 is still very good for me - no problems at all. I am an overweight amateur, so I wouldn´t be able to tell the difference from a real F8 or any other brand anyway. Had a real Willier and a Sensa before I got my Chinarello. I have been riding in every conditions and terrains with a big smile on my face and money to spend on electronic gearing and genuine low weight wheels for the mountains.
I love my bike...even though it´s fake.
Amen to that, if it puts a smile on your face what more can you ask, Dan
i would LOVE to see a blind test of this...a real and a fake one, specced up to look identical and run the test again...obviously not practical to make happen, but I often wonder with bike comparison tests how much comes down to bias and knowing which is the inferior bike, therefore looking for defects. Like being told youre drinking cheap wine and thinking it tastes bad.
Yep, but take my word on this - you would definatly notice the difference when over 250 watts, even blindfolded, Dan
Thanks for being fair. People really get emotional about this topic and its nice to just see a balanced take
Thanks - I was wanted to compare the ride, Dan
Hello to all the wonderful folks and cyclists out there! 😊 Three years ago, I got my hands on the Chinarello F12 and have covered around 25,000 kilometers since. Assembling it was a bit of a challenge, especially threading all the cables and wires through the frame-a tiny bit of a hassle, but nothing major. I encountered a few minor issues initially, like a slight creaking in the seat post, but I managed to sort that out.
I installed a mechanical Ultegra disc groupset, although, I think I should have go in the direction of the Di2 groupset due to the complexities of the handlebar's bends, which can cause issues with cables. Shifting gears wasn't as flawless as I anticipated because of that. Also, I would like to mention that I am a heavier rider, around 92/95kg (depends), 193cm tall, and the 59.5 frame size fits me like a glove.
Despite being a heavier rider, the frame has proven to be exceptionally robust. I haven't spared a moment pushing it to its limits-no creaks, no complaints, just relentless performance.
Despite my initial skepticism about buying this frame, I've been convinced it was a good decision. So, my next purchase will be the Yoeleo G21 gravel bike, which will replace my Cube Nuroad Pro aluminum. 🙃
you can fix the cable issue with smaller cable (4mm). I do that for my bike and they work very well for that, just take few step to take cable good fit at head tube and that will work very smoth.
What is the frame name and store you ordered from? I’d like to buy one I just don’t have a reputable source for a frame yet.
@tyrbaldur5317 same here. I would like to buy one but don't where. I know alibaba or aliexpress but would love to know the specific store $3k is a lot to loose on a scam
I had a lovely Chinarello F12, apart from a few finishing issues such as sharp edges at the junction port and the handlebar internal routing it was lovely to ride. Not 100% sure how much difference the weight is compared to a real one, but the Chinarello frame was around 1.2 kg.
I know the factory made it as I'm in the industry, so no worries whatsoever if you build it properly.
Did a really long review until RUclips took it down, bloody joy drain!
Did you compare it to a real f12? I wonder if the carbon layup has improved, Dan
@@vintagevelos9517 Didn't have a chance, but after reading Weightweenie's forum it is not far off tbh. I think it is T800 carbon.
The Dogma is never a lightweight bike hence Sky/Ineos used Lightweight wheels at some point.
Most of the real frames are from CN anyway, the BOB version is shipped to Italy for painting (blanks).
MOST components are from Taiwan if I remember correctly.
@@fastestmilkman3840 Big brand they said "Made in Italia or US" but real life it doesn't. They just assembly them at Italy and did an paint job and most item come from the factory at China, and it just have few factory in the world have a mould and skillful worker to do a carbon frame for big name and if you take a time to looking for them you can easily buy exactly the raw frame big name used but need some final finish (big name also do that before paint job). My brother working on a company like that and they make frame for big name with specs from them, the company also do bulk order for they own model and selling them on market too but you need spend more money for they QC so your frame will be top quality like 5000$ frame without paint job on that with 500 - 700$.
Probably made in the same factory without the way over the top price
I would think running the machines at night, Dan
you will get more quality if you pay more for them, it like tier 1 2 3 for quality. Tier 1 take 650 and tier 2 take 500$....
Have a Chinarello F12, been riding it for 3 years now and no problem with its durability.
The only problem I have is the QC, the seat post slot is slightly angled 2-3 degrees to the right and the handlebar's computer mount is also angled a bit to the right.
I have the same experience with the bike''s handling, the pinarello's geometry is there making it a delight on technical turns but it lacks that surging feeling compared to the original.
That surge you get from the real deal would be sorely missed, Dan
It might not perform to Pinarello Dogma standards, but if you like riding rather than racing, you are doing it looking good!
It probably exceeds Pinarello QC😂
Thank you for explaining to the greater public that you get what you pay for. I had a real Pinarello Paris for six years , I am 72 yr male and recently purchased a Pinarello dogma with sram etap and zipp wheels. I can vouch for the superiority of Pinarello. I smashed some of my PR’s on Strava with my new bike. Much more power uphill and goes downhill like a dream. So stiff, nothing lost waving from side to side, everything through my muscle power is put directly into the bike.
The Paris is a fine bike - many pro teams rode them in the mid to late 00`s - and age is no real barrier - I was gobsmacked by how good some of the 80 year olds were at L`Eroica, Dan
@@vintagevelos9517 Perhaps you misunderstood, I love my Pinarello Paris but the Dogma is the updated version.. UH 65 carbon much stiffer and an aero dynamic frame. The Paris remains my favourite paint job … a masterpiece
"Much more power uphill." WTF? Must have bought the one with the e-assist? Last time I checked all bikes (without e-assist) go uphill only as fast as one can pedal, no matter what decal is on the downtube.
Lol…. your Pinarello is 100% made in China and your performance advantage is not the frame, it’s the wheels.
@@larryt.atcycleitalia5786 Corrections for jealous troll. Power to weight ratio increases climbing speed with a lower cadence and a stiff frame. Pedalling fast in a low gear will not make you faster uphill.
I love the sound of those Italian engines all quiet and efficient, genuine class.
Correct me if I’m wrong but aren’t Pinarello frames produced in Taiwan and shipped to Italy? Love your videos and always look forward to the next!! Cheers!
You are correct - all Pinarello frames are made in Taiwan and shipped raw to Italy for finishing - made in Italy sticker is a bit misleading... Dan
Brought a team wiggins dogma F10 this summer, sram red group. And quarq PM. Got to ride up the tourmalet, ventoux alpe dhuez telegraph galibier etc. absolutely awesome loved it 🇫🇷🇫🇷🇪🇺🔥🔥🔥🔥👊❤️ can’t fault it, now it’s riding the roads down under 👍
Nice ride, Dan@@krisbowditch827
I've seen some pretty horrendous paint mistakes from them on the retailer side. They may as well let them do it in Taiwan
still 100% better than any road bike with disc brakes. fully external routing would have made it 200% better
Certainly for the user, Dan
Nice video! I also heard about these fakes and horror stories about low QC, but later, met 2 guys one had a fake Dogma 65.1 and his friend, fake Colnago. They've put several thousand miles on them riding both in US & Europe and had no complaints. If there wasn't demand, there wouldn't be a supply!🤣
Most people seem happy with their choice, Dan
Hey Dan , great video.
I’m not a fan of carbon bikes, would prefer a well made steel bike instead, like the type you show on your channel..
But like you said
‘ its horses for courses’.
Looking forward to your next video.
All the best!
Just wait for the next video - seriously old school steel coming up... Dan
So for the recreational rider averaging 150-200w for 2-3 hours on a Sunday morning there's no difference? It sort of misses the point though for most, because the joy of riding the genuine article is *knowing* that you're riding the genuine article. It's a bit like wearing a pair of Armani jeans, not that I do! On the one hand, the majority of riders aren't at the level where the actual performance makes even the slightest difference, but on the other hand what pleasure can you take from knowing that your're riding a fake?
You would notice the difference - as mentioned, the fake just feels a bit dull - too much cheaper fibre in the frame - and you definatly notice if you sprint for a sign... Dan
The pleasure comes in knowing that you just saved 10K
Altghough I won't change my Colnago dream mapei for anything new it's still an interesting topic, tank you for spending time giving your feedback !
Being french I think I have an answer to your question about people on the sides of the road => mushroom season (they mainly collect boletus edulis or simply called "cèpe") + some if not most in your video are hunters (mainly those with vans, minivans, 4x4..), maybe fishers too (not sure about that, there are restrictions in some places).
Now I do like a Mapei Colnago... Dan
That's good public service. I never even knew there was such a thing as a fake Pinarello, and because of you, I know to not buy one. If one is going to break the bank on a real one, we want the Pinarello's capabilities, not merely its looks.
To be honest it would be easy to be fooled by a dishonest seller as well, Dan
I love rim brakes
I had a fake Dogma, trained and raced for 3yrs and won plenty of crits and road races on it (Im a sprinter). Given I sell my bikes every year having this for 3yrs was a bit of a record. Didn’t have one issue with it. I’d definitely buy another one. And by the way ALL carbon Pinarello are made in China (not even Taiwan).
Chin/Taiwan... now thats a hot topic of debate online... just not Italy... Dan
Dogma is made in Taiwan.
@@tommyfreckmann6857 lol….no but you keep telling yourself that. It’s made in China.
@jboles1862 look up Carbotec wise guy.
@@tommyfreckmann6857using t1100 grade carbon . Has some standard
Great vid Dan I have ridden a real one super quality but outside of my (at the time now retired but still getting a move on) price range, now on classic steel with carbon fork which performs brilliantly for the age. Not sure for £2+k you can get any better though. Cheers Noel
Its a lot of bike for £2k, real deal F8 is way better in my opinion, Dan
I love the cafe break chats!
Feels like a nice way to end a ride, Dan
Back in the days when these fake Dogma and Tarmac first emerged from the china factories, around 2013, team mates of mine all got hands of the fake F8 and almost became a team bike. The spotting difference back then was the fake one will always use a BSA standard bottom bracket, whereas the real one uses Italian thread. After all these years, I wonder if this is still true? If Dan can confirm one in the video has BSA BB. Cheers
Alas I didn`t pull it apart or check the print on the BB - though you could easily tell it wasn`t real when you rode it hard, Dan
I would never buy a fake Dogma. Not because I'm snob but because I think the real one (and the fake) is one of the ugliest bikes on the market.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, Dan
With how terrible the QC is(selling hundreds of them), if I wanted one(I don't😅), I'd rather buy a knockoff
both are made in china😅 and overprice so definitely im not buying
It's not fake! It's a Chinarello!
Yes, Chinarello is a brand 😊
If one is concerned about top performance, low weight, and high price, there's good options out there, like the aluminum Treks, for example.
yep, and, as mentioned, a used F8 is an exceptional buy... Dan
I rode a couple... the F8, 10, and 12. I preferred the F12 to my Tarmac. hilarious.
there's fake f12 too?
I have 2 Pinarello, 1 Think 2 and an F10, originals, I always started from the principle that it is better to have a real used one than a copy, but I have to be honest, the copies today are so close to the original that the trouble sets in, then I say to each his own, would you be ready to put a fake Rolex Daytona on your wrist rather than a real one while knowing that the price justifies the means, the same goes for bikes, but whose fault is it? to the manufacturer who charges more than €4000 for frames or even €6000 for 1 Pinarello F, is very creasy , at what point does that become stupid?
As a regular Pinarello rider I can assure you in this case the difference was obvious when riding, Dan
I received a fake dogma f last week.
I measured the weight first.
The frame weighs 1kg, the fork 380g, and the handle 400g.
Previously, my bike had frame + fork = 1350g,
The bike weight was 7.1kg.
The appearance was absolutely identical.
There are some parts where the decals were structured slightly differently on purpose.
Therefore, now that assembly is complete, I am curious about how rigid it will be when ridden with strong force.
Was your previous one a real Dogma? Dan
@@vintagevelos9517 My previous bike was a different brand. What I meant was that it has exactly the same shape as the real Dogma F.
@@vintagevelos9517Dan, which Dogma do you have that you were comparing this fake one to?
Think 2.1, F8 and F10, Dan@@tommyfreckmann6857
Yep, same shape, the one I rode reacted very differently under load, Dan@@알란-i1c
The only problem I see with faked or copied products is when they're being sold as the real thing and people are scammed out of their money for what's usually an inferior product, other than that fake it till you make it.
for sure, some people will get caught out with fake/real deals - though as I point out, looks like a Dogma, doesn`t ride like a Dogma, Dan
Great video, appreciate the honesty
Thanks, Dan
Great video, I've had a fake 65.1 for nearly 10 years, apart from some minor cracks around the bottom bracket crankshaft housing ( about 5 mm), I love it and weighing 65kg, I'm not putting too much stress through the frame, I fully agree that it weighs about a kilo more than the true Pinarello frame, but I paid $550.00 AUD for it so no complaints and a great ride with DI2 ultegra.
Is there such a thing as minor cracks? If its just the paint them maybe, if its carbon then... Dan
To be fair to yourself, Pinarello has an X range of endurance bikes. There is even a Dogma X 👍
I think I was getting mixed up with the team edition XLite frames... and I was getting very cold... Dan
There's a Chinarello Catma out there too. Lol
No doubt, Dan
Hi there
And, by the way, there were flood warnings in place for the Vendee so the locals were looking at the river level!
Yep, think you are right with flooding - mad week of weather... Dan
If you can't afford the genuine Don't play on it.
With genuine Pinarello your getting the best carbon & craftsmanship money can buy.
And the real deal is a totally different beast... Dan
Host reminds of the Great Allan Peiper.
I`ll take that, Dan
Great video, I am interested in pricing up a fake one, where can you point me in the direction of a seller?
So many people say that the fake Pinarello's are as good as the real ones, why not get the real version of something in your price range instead? why get a fake Pinarello and then claim people who have a real one are stupid for spending so much money on a bike?
Definatly a difference between this fake Dogma and the real deal, Dan
Those real dog is definitely better than Chinarello but with my maximum 1 sec 700w output, most people will never unlock the full potential of the real dog like in TDF.
@@ChinarelloCATMA I would say above 200 watts you`ll notice the difference, Dan
I had a fake Dogma F, it's pretty ok frame. To be honest, I would buy it again, but only for my second bike, my first bike have to be the over-priced genuine bike
Sounds fair, Dan
As always, thanks for sharing Dan 👍
Ultegra 6800 is fantastic. They really nailed the look and performance of it.
Yep, spot on and it doesn`t fail as easily as Dura Ace, Dan
The question is how did you get the fake one and did you confirm witth Pinarello about the fake frame? It would be interested to do a loading test comparing real fake carbon frame.
I borrowed the bike from a buddy who bought the frame/forks and wheels from the usual oriental supplier - no need to do a test, I can confirm its NOT stiff, Dan
i do ride a chinese cheap carbon. and using it since 2020. i ride 3x a week. no sign of cracking.
Yep, pretty sure the ones that collapsed were few and far between - plus look at the Giant that just collapsed and landed them in big trouble... Dan
One of the most copied frame series in cycling history I suppose. I do wish I can afford the real deal, but a single dogma f frame costs more than 6000 usd here, which is more than my elves falath pro and, both of my fake dogma frame (one rim and one disk) with all the components combined...
Yep, but as I mentioned, a real used F8 would be twice the bike... Dan
I wonder if the front end stiffness might be due to the crash your friend had?
Nope - no creaks/cracks or noises and not just front end flexi, flexi all over and everyway when you start to push hard, Dan
I see real F10s from 2017, Dura-Ace Di2, going for around 3000 -- $5000 USD. Is the Chinarello that much less expensive???
Nope - just buy a good used F8 or F10 real deal - similar price and just better, Dan
It would seem then there is not enough difference to justify price.Ill stick with my 1978 carlton/pinnarelo🤔
Would depend on your use - if speed is the game then real deal is the only option, Dan
I'd be too worried about the quality of the carbon weave. It would always be on my mind during every fast/bumpy decent. 🙈
To be honest, that thought grew in the back of my mind over the course of the ride, Dan
Not sure what type of wheels you’re using but giving a review of a frame without changing wheels is not a review I can take seriously.
I typically use 32 spokes front and rear and the only thing that has ever happened going hard uphill is my shoe unclipped from the pedal 😂
For sure changing wheels would have been usefull - but I could see the frame flexing all over the place on hard efforts, Dan
Great review ❤cheers from OZ🇦🇺 we do see a few of these on the rd.
Aus... you guys are brave - here in the UK the roads are terrible abd the traffic very angry but you guys have those road trains,,, Dan
@@vintagevelos9517 we have a law that cars must give 1.0 meter distance when under 60km limit and 1.5 over 60km/h of course not all do this and a camera is useful in case of an accident.
Yes cycling safety is the most important thing. Have been knocked off a few times but luckily only skin came off. Cheers from Oz 🇦🇺
C’mon man. I could give two f’s if there’s fake Pinny’s on the market, they’re established and big enough to handle the sales thrash - but pimping fake FFWD’s, a cool, small family company in Holland, sucks. Sure - I hear your mea culpa of this vid not being about ethics… but it is.
Hello! Exactly what portion of the bike is fake? Just the frame? Or does it also have a fake group and brakes too? Just the frame weighs 1kg more?
The frame and wheels are fake, rest is real - so from that its fair to assume the frame is over weight - I included the weight footage as I was suprided by the weigh in, Dan
@@vintagevelos9517 other than the frame and wheels all the other parts are identical? What about the tires? I purchased a fake grevil frame set and it was roughly 250 grams overweight
I've worked in the cycling industry coming up on thirty years.
I don't think I've ever seen a more irresponsible review.
Do not buy one of these, you are risking your life. There are too many examples of them completely failing.
Is it worth dying just to impress other people posing with a brand..?
Did your parents never teach you the hypothesis of jumping off a bridge because someone else did..?
To the reviewer, you should absolutely be telling people not to buy these.
You are damaging the industry of the sport you espouse to love.
Saying that this bike gives the same aerodynamics as the genuine product is promoting it's theft of those proprietary developments.
Also to say that the bike is good and safe to ride after smashing in to the back of a car "because there hasn't been any problems" is so preposterously incompetent on your part it beggars belief.
Only if it had been professionally scanned can you think that. Even then it's not guaranteed as scanning is not perfect.
I recently had a customer who is an internationally competing junior have a fork steerer that had been in an accident catastrophically fail after it had been scanned and certified safe. Luckily he was cruising on the flat and not injured.
I see you have a more recent video where you call a vintage bike outright "Dangerous!!!" in the title and thumbnail, yet here gloss over the issue as to dismiss it.
Congratulations, the video got many more views than your others. I hope exposing viewers to harm was worth it.
I think the responsible thing you could do is take down this video. A follow up video with why and where you went wrong would show you understand why.
I'll stay subscribed and hoping to see better from you in future..
While I appreciate your comments I think you missed the point of this video - there are more fake Dogmas on the roads than real ones and a lot of riders wanted to know what the real, honest difference is - I tried to be as even handed as possible. Was I concerned about the potential accident damage? Yep, of course, and I`m pretty sure that came over in the video. You are correct in that even an xray inspection doesn`t always show up carbon damage - though if you watch the "death stems" video we do touch on accident damage and frame inspection plus how even brand new frames can and do collapse though mercifully rare. Should someone buy a fake Dogma? Watch to the end and my advice is clear, no, buy a good used F8 (though that could be crashed and you wouldn`t know it but the other option is £10k plus for a brand new real Dogma which kind of misses the point)... I think we have to agree to disagree on this one, Dan
Are you sat at the cafe in Vouvant (Vendee) in the video?
Sure am, well spotted, Dan
@@vintagevelos9517 thought so, I have a place near Mouilleron so have spent 25 years visiting and riding those roads
I know Mouilleron well - was there for the tour depart a few years ago (2918?) - guessing you know Glenn and Rachel who had a place in Mouilleron and recently moved to Vouvant?@@stevevoller
It's a bike...like all the other bikes out there. It won't go round corners any better than any other bike.
Hmmm..... got to disagree with you there - how a bike handles a high speed corner with a bump half way around varies a lot in my opinion, but I`m no expert... Dan
@@vintagevelos9517 Avoid the bump.
If you know what you are missing then it will never be or do. Brave ride🤟
Once you`ve ridden the real deal you can tell the difference - though suprisingly good at medium power rides, Dan
3:23 👍😍
5:20 👍
Well,, there is a reason why bootleg knockoff manufacturing is against international laws. Not only is it trademark / intellectual property theft but in the case of something like a bicycle it’s dangerous… humans are jumping on these things and traveling at high rates of speed on roads and trails. Anyone included in the ring should be held legally liable even if there part only involves content creation where ads are played and profits are gained. Yea you may get a rig that won’t break apart at the front dropouts when breaking hard but what about the next frame that comes off the line behind it? And just consider this, if knock offs weren’t illegal and discouraged by the parameters of law then innovation will surely be stifled. Designs are protected by law for a reason, to incentivize new creations by giving the creators a chance to profit. From these protections, culture and science progress and the people benefit. Take profits away by allowing pirated works will only ensure that no one person and or company will consider getting into the business of creation, invention and innovation. The original version of a bike like this is expensive for a reason. The first model of a new design has to be priced to pay for the R&D that went into the final as well as safety testing. Wind tunnels and the salaries that make them work are expensive. This is sad… how would you feel if some one snatched your video as seen here and used ai to swap out your face to call it their own and started collecting plays and google ad money?
You are correct - though as I mentioned, there are loads of these bikes on the roads and a lot of miss-information about them - I wanted to do an unbiased video on how they ride in comparrison, that is all, Dan
It's not well known, but often the official manufacturer of a given item is also the largest bootlegger. I recall a scandal of 20 some years ago wherein the largest publisher of CD's in Europe (Bertlesman I think) was found to be sending ~5 unlicensed copies out the back door for every licensed copy they sent out the front door. Only the lowest quality counterfeit items are clearly counterfeit, you can be buying bootleg items in a store or on the internet every day and not suspect that they are so.
So, it could be the source of the fake frames, is the same producer that makes the real ones.
It's enabled of course by the modern business model wherein nobody does anything themselves and everything is subcontracted. If a little office in an EU country designs the brand and handles the marketing, and everything from engineering to production is outsourced, these days piracy is almost guaranteed.
thanks
I just wouldnt have confidence in it
I can appreciate that, Dan
Took my fake F12 to the Alps this summer, absolutely fine, no problems for me.
I have owned a fake F10, ridden all over NYC+suburbs…totally bulletproof, not a creak or rattle, all bolt points were tight when I let her go.
As I mentioned in the video, every owner of a fake Dogma likes them, Dan@@bullet72012
All of Asia ride these with great groupsets. Honestly can't justify the massive difference in the real deal.... But lots of friends have no issues with these. Put 1000ks on these, and not a thing. Supply and demand.....lol. probably made from the same factory ...
Yep, same moulds for sure - very different feel on the road though, Dan
Chinarello.
Technically Taiwanello... Dan
Best value bike, below Usd $4000 will get you something nice 🎉🎉🎉
A used F8 or F10 real Dogma makes great value, Dan
5:27😜
Why bother?....buy the bike you can afford and enjoy the journey...the only person you are fooling is yourself🙈
Cervelo or Madone is much better looking and at reasonable price points.
Could well be, Dan
Una gran bicicleta
chinarello
Is the name on the street.... Dan