“you can love and respect the artist and the art and still critique it” *as an artist i highly appreciate that like i need some CONSTRUCTIVE critisisim to keep improving my work thank u*
The "poc can't cosplay as their favorite character thing" reminds me of when I was a kid playing pretend with my friends, I was always assigned Mulan because I was asian while everyone else got to pick what princess they wanted to be. I wanted to be Ariel :(
"black people also die" is the best thing I've ever heard. since i saw that tiktok I've been thinking about how black people are so underrepresented in media, especially horror because we die too, we run from things, we.... EXIST
When I was in elementary school, boys tried to lift my skirt to see my thick leg hair and said I was a man. It is more than an aesthetic. It is about the representation and normalization of POC bodies
It's so easy to make darker skinned people have the 'dead' look. U just need to use greyer brown tones and contouring. Take notes from coraline! Wybie fits the spooky vibe completely.
@I have no personality outside my sexuality I meant more the grayish tones of his skin. I definitely think it should be applied to darker skinned people as well. Edit: I dont know about wybie being mixed though I always thought he was just supposed to be light skinned since we've never seen his parents, but its definitely a possibility.
Lol, it’s easy to make a dead looking POC, if you just hit up a morgue for some research. It’s not like their aren’t Black and Brown corpses, all over the world, to check out. These people act like only White people have dark thoughts, deal with macabre topics in their folklore, or struggle with their own mortality. The Goth aesthetic is born out of a certain attitude and emotional state. Pretty sure feelings and thoughts don’t pass by people who don’t “fit the aesthetic”
I mean it's not EXACTLY the same aesthetic, but look at Coraline. It has poc in it and it has that same vibe as his films, proving that he could add poc and it still work.
Yeh, and thats why I love Laika, the studio who did Coraline, because they have a very diverse characters in their movies. Not just diverse in race but overall representationof different minorities. They literally had another film with a gay character in a kid's show but it wasn't the stereotypical gay character we see on the mainstream media.
No one said he couldn't, just that he doesn't HAVE to. There's no need to force POC into a project if you don't understand how to write or present them.
Yesterday I learned that Corpse Bride is based on a Jewish folktale and he just removed all Jewish elements from the story. I really don’t like how he treats other cultures, ethnical groups and religious groups. If you’re curious, the story is called “The Finger”. Edit: it’s a Russian-Jewish folktale. It wasn’t mentioned by the person I learned it from, but I was corrected.
@@Definitelynotabot4 if you read any version of the OG tale, some are a bit more explicit, it becomes VERY apparent. Like he almost took the story word for word in some parts.
Tim Burton proved himself wrong with Frankenweenie (2012), which has POC characters. Toshiaki is Japanese, and Nassor is most likely Egyptian (his character is a reference to the movie Mummy, and his pet is seen buried in an Egyptian-style mausoleum, so it’s very likely he is ethnically Egyptian). Nassor’s design is primarily based on Boris Karloff, who’s father is half Indian on his mother’s side, which he retains some ethnic features from. So while Nassor’s ethnicity is not as clear as Toshiaki’s, he’s most certainly not white. They are quite visually distinct from most of the other characters, but they fit in with his claymation style perfectly, which just goes to show Burton dragging his feet for so many years to add POC characters to his film was absolute bullshit. They fit into the style fine.
His movie Mars Attacks also had black main characters, even though this was a minor character there was also a cop character in Edward Scissorhands who was black. Now I love the Burton aesthetic and I also love his movies (well his older ones) but his excuse for not being more diverse is pretty yeah... I can understand not wanting to offend people with how some characters are being written (as someone who wants to be inclusive and diverse when making characters I try to make sure to avoid what could be seen as tokenism or harmful representation, I believe everyone deserves to see themselves represented and have a character that looks like them) but it shouldn't be hard for him to do research or something.and like you said his past movies contradict that
@@cheshirerose2001 i havent seen mars attacks, and i was primarily referring to main characters so edward scissorhands is on thin ice (badumtsss). ive seen that movie so many times and i dont even remember the cop lol there was also his adaptation of charlie in the chocolate factory, where the oompa loompas are played by deep roy, who is primaruly kenyan. the oompa loompas are also clearly meant to be an indigenous tribe of sorts, but honestly? that makes it even more uncomfortable bc they literally get colonized. now, the whole "work in the factory deal in exchange for chocolate as payment" and oompa loompa land were in the book, and i know burton wanted to make a more faithful book adaptation, but like... there were layers that he added which really did not need to go there. in the original print of the book, they were depicted as being from africa, but then in the 70s revised version, they were white bc even Dahl himself realized how uncomfortable that whole colonization plot is, especially since the utilization of slave labor specifically for chocolate production is particularly common in africa... sorry for rambling there. it just struck me as really uncomfy. i will say frankenweenie is a very good movie tho, and toshiaki is even voiced by a japanese man so thats a plus. im not sure if youve seen it, so i recommend it! i just wasnt sure if by "older" movies you meant like beetlejuice or what, bc frankenweenie is turning 10 years old this year so its not exactly NEW either. he really returned to form with the claymation and humor, with the added plus of less racism.
@@cheshirerose2001 Also Harvey Dent aka Two Face was played by Billy Dee Williams. And Tim planned on making Williams Two Face eventually down the the line in a sequel. I also heard he wanted Marlon Wayans to play Robin. But that never happened because Burton and WB had a fight over his movies being too dark for kids.
He definitely has an issue with not being able to envision his art with PoC, but he'll never change so instead of trying to get unwilling artists to do that, why don't we try and lift up PoC creators to the level of Tim Burton who can envision these stories 🦆
Yes! I don't *want* Burton doing Day of the Dead themes, he'd def make missteps over Mexican culture, even if he had a ton of Mexican artists consulting him. What would be good is if he co-produced with a Mexican studio though!
The fact that Tim Burton himself stated that he felt uncomfortable with black/poc being added into shows and then argued that he never became upset about the lack of yte people in black/poc entertainment boggles my mind; like hello? The fact that black/poc people had to create a space to have movies that included themselves speaks volumes onto itself.
Well...the gothic scene is a minority scene. Its not meant to be super inclusive, but I think a cute brown chick would look cool as a character America would love it, but it's his art...its his universe. Samuel Jackson looked pretty damn good.
I remember being in 8th grade as a mexican 12 year old and i wanted to be “emo” so bad but there was only pictures of extremely pale thin and blue eyed women and men. I even had friends who told me I probably wouldn’t have been able to fit that aesthetic because im too “tan” even now i get insecure spending too much time in the sun because in the back of my head i might not fit the aesthetics i like if i get too dark.
I hate how aesthetics are more important than the roots of different subcultures. Like for goth its literally music but aesthetics are now much more important and everybody is dismissing the music and its so sad :'( don't worry about the aesthetic,be yourself and be whatever you want to be !
@@edina4902 as an Elder Emo THIS. I'm SO sad people told OP they couldn't be emo because of their skin colour. I knew plenty of POC emos in highschool and in MySpace. It's about the clothing and music. Skinny jeans and mostly all black with graphic tees. I still dress emo to this day! 😁
As a Mexican ‘baby bat’ I say f- it and go for it. I’m more of the Goth/Grunge aesthetic myself. but there’s plenty of Emo poc. It’s all based off music, not looks. So don’t worry to much about it because your beautiful/Handsome inside & out. Just try it out. it’s better to live happy & comfortable with yourself then caring about what people think for the rest of your life. It’s a hard thing to do, but you got this. (Yea I’m aware this is a year late-)
I know so many black and Latina goth girls and tim Burton fans. They are a large part of that and the anime fanbase and I wish they were represented in the art that inspires them. 🖤 This was a really good video girl.
As a black person who LOVES tim burton style and has spent more money on Jack Skellington merch than id like to share, ALOT of those comments “supporting” him, were REACHING lol. I love Tim Burton style and can ALSO admit that theres a problem with diversity in his films. See how easy that was?? 🙄😒
@@sirin...... EDIT: I originally completely misunderstood the comment I was replying to because it was rather late at night after a crappy shift at work, so I'm sorry for being a dumbass. The below take is redacted and Tim Burton is explicitly racist, based on the original comment I responded to and the stuff discussed in the video. I'm sorry for misreading. The redacted statement for context: I haven't seen the full video yet so my opinion might change, but from what i have seen and heard of tom burton, he is more implicitly racist than explicitly racist. He has biases and prejudices, but that doesnt mean he actively hates on black people.
Well, the ones that defend him/racists are more than likely not black - they never see the issue with these sorts of things cause they can't relate, so do you & continue to ignore the dusties honey, lol
he doesn't want to "force" diversity, but he was perfectly fine forcing Emma in miss peregrine into an ethereal blonde girl when that literally wasn't her character at all.
As an Asian person I really appreciate this because as a kid I wanted to be white so bad like I wanted blond hair and blue eyes and lighter skin. And it was mainly because that’s all I saw on TV and adds and everywhere. Thank you for touching up on this toppic.
@@santaclaus723Are you dumb? You’re chastising a person for sharing a depressing time in their childhood where they questioned and hated their identity because of the oppression they faced as a CHILD. THEY WERE A CHILD.
That aesthetic that he uses is called German Expressionism. So if you use the aesthetic you're using German Expressionism. It started in the Cabinet of Dr Caligari which was directed by a german jew.
To those who say “Tim Burton doesn’t owe you diverse casting” obviously not. But equally we don’t owe him unquestioning support. If you put art out in the public eye - especially if you’re selling it - you will face criticism. Obviously we don’t want said criticism to be hateful, we want it to be constructive, but it’s still important to make that criticism. Even if Burton himself never listens to it, the conversation can affect how other artists approach their work. As for my Halloween costume, I’m going as a murder of crows - I’ve got a shirt painted with fake blood and I’m currently sewing some little stuffed birds to go on my shoulders. 😄
Absolutely agree that you can question him and criticize the fact that his aesthetic is not your type. The only irony here is that if someone or when someone has a whole black cast or any other race somehow no one sees anything wrong. So are we just ignoring that side of things or is that their way of "balancing the field" because of "history?
Poor Henry Selick. I know Tim Burton produced both James and the Giant Peach and The Nightmare Before Christmas, but damn give the actual director of the films some credit guys.
Tim Burton created Nightmare Before Christmas the only reason he didn’t Direct it was because he was working on the Batman sequel at the time . Henry Selick is a great director too Coraline is his best movie
I love Tim Burton’s style, aesthetic & his films, but I still acknowledge that what he said was hurtful & illogical. Constructive criticism doesn’t equal us hating someone.
I think “Don’t Starve” and its characters perfectly disprove Tim Burton’s point about looking dead bc they have a very similar aesthetic while also having poc characters
And that game is not in black and white, it has colours. The reason black characters would look weird in a movie like Corpse Bride, is because it doesn't fit the colour pallete, that is a fact
I think POC writers/artists should take this as an opportunity to do their own creations and put their own spin on the horror/goth genre instead of waiting for this guy to do it. I love his work, but I would prefer actual POC to tell the stories they want to see represented. Me being Mexican, I would like to see other mexicans tell stories about Day of the Dead, la Llorona, and other folk tales, since it would feel more authentic and well-structured. That’s just my opinion of course, everyone has a valid reason to feel a certain way about the subject.
I totally agree. Which is why my main issue is with the industry gate keepers. because the truth is, if you and I write a book, make art or what ever, we would not get the same recognition. Even if the book etc is as good.
@@theliterarywitch exactly like yes it would be amazing for more poc to make their stories but people aren't gonna listen. People already listen to Tim Burton which is why it's up to people like him to include everyone
@@theliterarywitch yes yes yes to this ! it frustrates me when peoples discussion is around responsibility being on white writers, directors, creators and yes but also who is funding, producing, distributing these stories ? there are poc writing diverse stories but lacking opportunities to share them more widely ~
Stan culture is so bizarre. Tim Burton has an Emmy AND a Golden Globe AND his films have been nominated/have won dozens upon dozens of awards. I don't think he is at all insecure about the quality of his work. As Foucault said, “A critique is not a matter of saying that things are not right as they are. It is a matter of pointing out on what kinds of assumptions, what kinds of familiar, unchallenged, unconsidered modes of thought the practices that we accept rest.”
You can receive plenty of awards and still need to work on your inclusivity skills I mean look at Steven Spielberg's Movies where are the black and Brown people when we're not being stereotypical? Just saying if these folks are so awesome is it only because they were able to make so much money for so many years without putting Back and Brown people in their films unless we are portraying a negative version of our race? just curious.
My favorite is when people of color cosplay anime characters and the comments are all telling them "that character isn't black" yet when white people cosplay these *Japanese* characters who ARE NOT WHITE no one blinks an eye. I think anyone should be able to cosplay any character no matter the race or ethnicity.
yes! I'm a black person and I'm so scared to cosplay anyone other than Katara in public for that exact reason. My favorite cosplay is Kenma from Haikyu and I doubt he'd ever see the outside world because I'm so scared that someone will say something like that and ruin it for me
@@kaisetic3150 I don’t know you but I’m a Japanese person and I personally think you would look incredible in a Kenma cosplay. Skin color and race don’t matter and I’m sick of white people acting like they own our content 😭 you do you and you’ll look better than Sam smith over there I promise
So many ppl draw Emily black and she’s absolutely GORGEOUS. Ofc she has blue skin but they give her textured hair and “black features” and she fits BEAUTIFULLY. And fan casting has the save woman of color as Emily and she’s PERFECT and I can picture her in a Tim Burton/live action Corpse Bride movie!
Okay but Emily is white....? As a POC I really would appreciate if we have our own characters that are people of colour. Not having to erase the fact she's white and make her black or Asian or any race really.
@@inkubator320 exactly! I was so bummed that they are doing that with the new Little Mermaid movie! They even had a black AND deaf mermaid named Melody they could have done a movie on!
@Emma McMahon Not only that, but they act like they made their first black princess, as if Tiana doesn't exist (great character, btw). In general, I don't think you need a character that has the same skin color or whatever to relate or "feel seen."
As someone who grew up obsessed with Tim Burton, now that I’ve grown up I’ve become much more in love with Laika studios. Laika had the first ever openly gay character in animation in the movie Paranorman! They’re really incredible and invent new tech for stop motion films with every movie made. They also made Coraline lol
@@radmochi7495 for real! He wasn’t used for tokenism and they didn’t make fun of him either lol I think it’s pretty great. He’s such a himbo tho I love him
There's no queerbaiting, no heavy implications and tiptoeing while avoiding being upfront about it, he says it at the end so matter of factly and it's great. He doesn't have to say to the audience "I'm gay! I'm a boy and I also like boys! Isn't that so shocking, because I'm so masculine presenting??" he brings it up in a casual conversation that he has a boyfriend. No sensationalism. It's just a fact :)
as a white person and a large horror fan, this is something i’ve never thought about, and i’m really thankful you took the time to speak about this. “not thinking about” issues like this is a privilege and it’s something i’m still working on but this is a great video and really helpful.
It really makes me so happy as a black person when I see comments like this of people acknowledging their privilege and backtracking to think about this kind of stuff more... I wish there were more people like you who wouldn't just start arguing whenever anyone acknowledges their privilege and start denying stuff. It is the bare minimum, but its still something. So yeah, thank you ig for that.
As a black girl, I used to watch anime and when I did, I felt it was really wrong for me to do this. I also got immersed in alternative dressing but felt like I could never fit the aesthetic because I was black. So many people made fun of me when they found out when I watched anime, as it wasn't "meant for me". I'm sick of it. People say that racism doesn't exist anymore, but there is an undercurrent of it. Especially for POC who are females. Do something about this. Now. I felt like I was wrong as a 10 year old and couldn't tell my mum that I liked anime because I was a POC. It's really sad.
Lol my dad read me the filth for watching Naruto when I was like 12. He used to call me and my sister Chelsea and Stacy. Anime is super mainstream now so we won
why was that wrong? because of your race? but i think, if anime is from japanese, and your race is on quote 'wrong' to enjoy it, wasn't that means white people cant too? and only asian is rightful for watching anime? sorry i had to edit my opinion here because i don't think commenting twice is good. also sorry for my bad english
I've been told i don't fit the aesthetic of cute because I am so tall. They are just outing their own narrow mindedness but idk how to reply in a way to actually make them improve rather than be defensive or insult me. I think one of the reasons that kpop/eastern Asia culture has gained popularity is the wider variety of looks & it's more acceptable to be cute & like things often deemed childish as an adult, for men too.
@͔ Anyone can put their input in at this type of conversation especially when it's to support the side that's excluded. And not you blaming the people who had nothing to do with the whole Russia vs Ukraine thing, acting like the people are the ones to bomb parts of Ukraine ☠️.
@@NotAnotherKuromi This, I'm like 5'5 and like many people I hang out with are like 5'2-'3 and I feel like a gaint but I like cute stuff and want to be cute but I just feel like I can't even as far as I *shouldn't* and it's a constant fight with myself wanting to do things then feeling wrong because I want them
@@thelying2594 5'5" isn't even that tall imo, although I might be giantly biased lol. Try not to let the silly people put you down & just wear what you want & rock it. Looking at others with similar aesthetic & likes might help you see that there are lots of others out there with the same taste who appreciate cute stuff, it helped build my confidence.
What annoys me about the “forced diversity” argument is that so many people use it to defend not ever including poc. I also don’t want to be an afterthought for diversity points, but just including poc in your work isn’t “forced diversity.” Contrary to popular belief, we exist out in the wild too. There doesn’t need to be a “reason” for us to be in your story, which is an argument I often hear as well. We do, in fact, just exist.
@@manifestationsofasort Honestly, big agree! I more so refer to the instances when people add poc and then do nothing with the character, showing they were an afterthought. But forced diversity probably isn’t the best term to describe that, it’s more so creators being lazy and just not wanting to be held accountable for it.
This just reminded me. In an art class of mine, we were told to draw ourselves as Tim Burton characters. And I'm a mixed-race Mexican-german. So I had a bit of trouble finding references but I was still able to fit my drawing to his aesthetic. I'm an amateur self-taught artist, so there's no reason someone as talented as Tim Burton can't fit people of color into his works.
Do you realise his movies happen in 18 to 19th century Europe? Do you know how rare would be to find someone black or mixed over there? If it was an African movie where 80%of cast were white you would be call everyone involved racist, being mixed myself I'm just embarrassed of how much your narcissistic ass needs to have your will of having someone like you in the movie just because you want to feel glamorised ... To me seems stupid to put a black or mixed character in Europe at the 18 th century Europe...
I don't understand how adding other races to a cast is being "politically correct". They're people they exist in the world, if anything it's weird to never include them and act like they don't exist.
Tim Burton stans really can't grasp the idea that you're allowed to enjoy art while critiquing the artist... I am a huge marvel fan and I enjoy the movies immensely but I'm never going to deny that they are built on military propaganda and are seriously lacking female and POC representation... Y'all need to chill.
And what’s really just depressing about the MCU portrayal of Steve Rogers (no offense to Chris Evan’s acting choices as the character)…the character was created by jewish creators as a response to anti-semitism. He’s intentionally visually the “poster boy of Whiteness” then is motivated to defend the marginalized. “Oh so you want AMERICA Propeganda? HOLD MY BEER.” Which, the first Cap movie *kinda* got. But by the second act or so + all the films featuring Steve moving forward…that all got conveniently forgotten in favor of the “easier” Military/Spies&Conspiracy storylines. (At least the people who made “The Falcon and the Winter Soldier” remembered Captain America’s actual themes (and that Sam Wilson did, actually, succeed Steve in the source material), as well as brilliantly contrasted Steve’s Cap against John Walker’s “Cap” while ALSO acknowledging that MCU!Steve Rogers *just doesn’t get it and Can’t get it* which Bucky acknowledges *to Sam.* ) …unfortunately Disney is Disney. There’s still A LOT of anti-blackness going on in addition to the other issues. Anyway…yeah. We can like media, acknowledge what it’s trying to do (OR what it’s not. Or is claiming to do but…just. Isn’t. [squints at yet another “first gay character!” while Owl House gets its final season cut short and nearly canceled after the second season, ALL the queer subtext removed from Ducktails once it got put on Disney+, etc) and still criticize it
Soo true...I'm a marvel too and I'm blaq..I'm willing to take a step back and admit there's some racism in Marvel considering there's a strong blaq female main character in a comic that could've been a massive hit but was ignored..and there was also a character in the comics that was a blaq female but they changed it to a yt person (sorry forgot the characters/comic names)..problematic but marvel overall is awesome though and their movies are kinda revolutionary with their cgi and Cinematography
It's wild how literally most of the inhabitants of the planet are POC yet we're still at grips with yt supremacy like we need permission to be represented 👁️👄👁️
@Jeremiah Noar No one is begging anyone to put POC I'm media. They are commenting and making objective observations on the lack of their presence within the space. When a producer of any medium of media decides to cast a POC, it is not to "appease the masses"; representation and even simply existing on the big screen is important after incidences like white America being upset over Rue from hunger games being black or Little Mermaid being black for a musical (when things like this have already been done countless times before for remakes i.e, Cinderella and the Wiz, but because the aforementioned examples weren't explicitly targeted towards black audiences there was a problem). You claim it's forced diversity, you swear up and down "it's not bias"/"I'm not racist", when you say uneducated ignorant things online, like how POCs existing in your favorite movie is merely being done to appease the masses. So when is it ever okay to put them in? In explicitly POC targeted/advertised media? Never? Do they just not exist? And if they do, why do you act as if their existence is solely political and can only be, in order to "appease them". "Just put em in the damn movie, that'll quiet them." @ Me if you want to continue this conversation because I'm done, and you sound like a joke.
@@sequoialawson5302 not begging to put POCs in media? That's what your comment was about. That there aren't enough POCs in some spaces therefor, you believe more need to be put in to correct that. you're also pulling on things from my comment that weren't even there. I never said that black POCs existing in a movie is always to appease the masses. I didn't even say that's what's happening most of the time. But I can acknowledge (as you should to) that there ARE movies where they intentionally changes the color/gender of a character in the name of inclusivity or representation. Don't believe me? Look at Ghost busters 2016 (which bombed pretty bad). Or the new all female "Ocean's Eight. You brought up an example yourself. The Little Mermaid remake. How does casting a black actor as Arial add to the story? it doesn't. So if it's not done for the sake of story, then why do it? And actually, that's a pretty good litmus test. If a character from a familiar property has their race or gender changed in a newer version and the ONLY reasoning behind it is "it's for representation" then it doesn't add anything to the story as a whole. Yes POCs exist. And yes, the casting of some fictional work aren't representative. So what? It's a story. Stories aren't meant to mirror reality, they're meant to reflect truths from reality. So when is it ok to have a POC in a story? Whenever the story calls for one. simple answer. When it makes the story better. and putting them in just because the movie doesn't have enough of us doesn't necessarily make the story better.
Lemme make it clear that Lolita the book and movie have nothing to do with lolita fashion. The aesthetic associated with Lolita the movie is called nymphet fashion. Lolita fashion is derived from French rococo era fashion silhouette and is combined with kawaii/goth/classic etc. aesthetics to achieve different substyles.
@@amandacaballero3624 The term Coquette is more common for fashion associated with the Lolita movie, so that might help if you're searching for more info on what it looks like. Think it's a very "young flirty femme Americana" type of fashion
It's sad how Hispanic women are made fun of for having long arm hair, one of my best friends is Hispanic and even as kids I've always loved her longer arm hair (I was legit jealous, I accept my own body now 🤣) I thought and still think it's cute AF 🥺💜
Yeah, it's really sad. I have a lot of body hair, i remember one time at my job, my boss looked at my arms and said "si así está el camino cómo estará el pueblito" lmao i only laughed but internally i felt reaaaally bad
he is very creative so imagine the possibilites with the hair skin and culture of black people being included, I never cared about the fact that he didn't have diversity on his movies but it would be nice to see some characters like that.
That's true. My friend dressed up as Zoro from one piece and this random group of people came up to us and said "Zoro isnt black". I was like wtf. Just because our skin is different doesn't mean we cant cosplay our favorite characters. We just the black version of the character.
@@nemishka93 um first of all you. Can change your skin color to darker and at the end of the day you can take it off but for darker skin people they can’t take it off it’s there natural shade.
@@nemishka93 I’ve literally seen multiple Asian and white people Cosplay as Tiana. As long as there’s no blackface or cultural insensitivity no one cares. If anything I’ve seen people using them as an example of how to cosplay black characters without using blackface.
As a huge fan of Tim Burton, I really REALLY do want to see him hear these critiques and add some diversity! The people reaching and putting words in your mouth should calm the hecc down.
Why do you like a racist. He literally kicked a hole in a wall because the people who were working with him on tnbc didn't want to name oogie boogie that because it was literally a racist nickname towards black people. Not to mention he completely whitewashed a Jewish folktale.
If you’re white, dark skinned, poc or asian you can cosplay whatever you want. And I love Tim Burtons films and his art. Anyone can be any aesthetic and please don’t mix Lolita and Japanese Lolita (I’m Japanese Lolita, a vintage and doll aesthetic.) LOVE YOURSELF ❤️❤️❤️❤️
@Dr.Sawbones yeah, that I understand. Now the "has a weird feeling considering his first ever live action film specifically has an all Asian cast" is the part I do not understand. What is the weird feeling? Does that mean that this is an example that we are judging him wrong? That the aesthetic of the film he made was perhaps not the best and maybe it was offensive? (to clarify i've never watched that film nor i dislike Burton. I am genuinely curious since i want to have an opinion considering all sides. Again, no hate)
I feel like some people are so attached to his works that criticizing any part of him or said works feels like an attack on their character. Which is absolutely wild. Nothing is above criticism, even your faves. *_Especially_* your faves
TBH a huge "dang I'm an adult now" moment for me was when I started to reasses my favorite stuff (books, movies, series, etc) and actually was able to admit to their flaws and recognize I like the work despite those flaws (or even despite the artist), while still thinking about the reason for them to exist and how they could be fixed/lessened.
@@koalaeucalyptus I fully believe that you should follow your own morals and that if someone/something upsets you to the point where it truly does change the way you engage with the media (outside of the artist) then yeah. Let it go and move on. That being said, I know if I swore off all of my favorite media related things because they were created by/starring/involved with someone problematic, I wouldn't be able to watch anything, lol. Enjoying something really should go hand in hand with critically engaging with it.
I really dislike his point on forced inclusivity. What makes forced inclusivity feel forced is keeping stereotypes… poc just exist in the world, you don’t need a specific reason in order to exist as a poc and it should be the same in movies. As long as you don’t make your character stereotypical it probably won’t feel forced, just like there’s a poc there and they exist, like in the actual world. It’s also true for other marginalized groups like poor people (in a non-romanticized way), plus size people and many more Edit: the default shouldn’t be “thin, white and able bodied unless there’s a specific reason to be anything else” is what I was trying to say
I think what he meant to say is that he doesn't want to have things like quota. He doesn't want to be like: "I need to at least cast a poc" And more like if he finds someone during casting then why not?! But as Salem mentioned he casts mostly the same actors so ......... I do agree with you that it really feels forced when the only dimension of some characters are that they are poc or part of the LGBT+ community. However, I also think that it feels forced when there's a pb of realism (which doesn't apply to Burton) but for example I like TV series like GoT ppl from the north are pale white and the more you go south the more there are poc and it doesn't feel forced. Or in historical pieces, etc. Imo, the pb is more about main characters' diversity than just the cast as a whole. Taking GoT again as an example there are not many important poc :/ and here lies the pb of representation I think. When the MC is Black or Asian or anything else, usually so is the rest of the cast. Looking at children cartoons I never saw one with a poc as an MC. I hope I was clear enough to not cause an uproar 🤗
Omfg I completely agree with u. His point just insinuates that the world is segregated into different races. Like it’s normal everywhere in the world to have different people of different skin colour, by creating characters with the skin colour, it isn’t forcing inclusivity because u create the character. It’s literally just their skin colour, u don’t have to create a personality or character to fit the skin colour.
@@noxart2410 I can think of one or teo because I loved them i.e. Juniper Lee and the American Dragon ^^ am listing these in case anyone wants to check them out and not because I wanna argue. I really dont have enough insight on the topic being from a racially homogenous but nationally and religiously diverse end hence culturally tense Slavic country
@@noxart2410 I understand what you’re saying but Burton is creating his own universe, his plots don’t tend to take place in a specific location on the globe so he can pretty much do whatever he wants (and when it comes to story telling, he sure does).. Also important to note is the fact almost all of his characters are thin, cishet , able-bodied and neurotypical, which doesn’t change based on location in the world, people from these groups are everywhere. As an artist I truly appreciate his work and aesthetic, but, as Salem mentioned in the video- it doesn’t exclude him from criticism, and I do think criticism is due here.
As someone who was a 'Burton freak' from about 1988-1999 (yes I am old) one thing I noticed early on about him is he doesn't take criticism very well, and can be very defensive about his creative process. I suppose it's just a sensitivity to being so often rejected for who he was. He could've just said 'hey you're right I'll do something about it' but that would be the answer of someone who's open to suggestion. Aesthetic is no excuse for him though - tons of his movies don't have an overly Burtonesque look; Mars Attacks, Big Fish, Pee Wee's Big Adventure, Batman... they all have plenty of characters who could be represented by POC. Ironically all the movies goths booed for not being goth enough.
Wether he is racist or not he is definitely not inclusive, as a goth person I've seen lots of gothic poc that look amazing, I love the tim burton aesthetic, I love his movies, I love the stories and even though I'm not a poc I would love to see stories that include them. I'm an artist who loves horror and creepy, spooky things and my dream is to do animation one day, hopefully I can create something that all sorts of people can relate to, but I hope even more that artists who are poc get to tell those stories themselves.
The internalised racism is crazy. Most (if not all) problems can be traced back to colonialism and racism. People are so comfortable with how the society is that they refuse to see it any differently than the way they were socialized. And of course, when you're on top of the ladder, very few would actually like to understand the problem of those below them. Blindness to one's privilege is a serious problem. Please check your privilege people!
no mate america is insane and any opinion or thought that comes from it is so exaggerated and obnoxious its actually pathetic. no one cares. people have other things to care about than america
Burton grew up in historically segregated Burbank ca so I don’t expect a lot from him in the way of diversity. It was very homogeneous over there at the time. A lot of people grow up like this with no diversity in their lives. I don’t expect people like this to create work that reflects stuff outside of their limited experiences. I enjoy a few of Burton’s classic projects and leave it at that. Now Neil Gaiman is the other side of the coin. No not goth exactly but appeals to the community no doubt. He pulls from a ton of different cultures in his work but I also assume that’s due to him growing up in the UK in close proximity to several people of different cultures and ethnic backgrounds. I always see people who look like me in his works now that he has more creative control. I definitely appreciate that.
As a white guy I never realized that he didn't cast Black actors or write Black Characters. And that's the problem. Even if he wasn't intentionally not casting Black people, he was apart of the culture that normalized a lack of Black representation. He normalized all white casts and western aesthetic beauty. Its undeniable that Burton takes inspiration from other cultures view and ideas of the dead and how they deal with the dead. Yet those characters in his stories are still always white.
Thank you for being a white male and actually listening and considering what she had to say.. I was start to feel like hopeless while going threw these comments :/
IMO, I think that’s flawed logic. People make stories about people that look like them. I’m middle eastern, so of course I like to make mostly Middle Eastern characters. It’s not my responsibility to make Asian, White, Indian, etc. representation. You can’t make artists give your group representation, as an artist myself, I find it annoying when people tell me that I don’t draw enough of whatever race. If you want representation?? Don’t beg for it from other artists, make it yourself. Also, if people can’t relate to a character at all because they are a different skin tone than you, then it’s on you for being shallow.
@@chervoviytuz but the point is America isn't just composed of white people. Considering Tim Burton is an American. Its a melting hot pot of multiple races and ethnicity. So to not have people with varying race or ethnicity is not only an inaccurate portrayal of America, but is also damaging to POC.
@@neilcalamba7746 If Tim burton doesnt want to draw them, he doesn’t have to. It isn’t racist to not draw someone. If you want to create representation for every race, do that on your own :) nobody owes anyone representation.
I'm so glad ur highlighting the connection between gothic subcultures and being skinny; my love for alt fashion and the lack of body diversity within it is such a huge hurdle I face in recovery bc I constantly fear I will no longer 'fit the aesthetic' :')
As someone who has was a Tim burtons fan in the past, just because you like a piece of media doesn’t mean you have to defend the creator (especially when they’re being rightfully criticised) All the points in this video were amazing and Salem’s makeup is gorgeous :)
True! Another example is that I like songs from the band Mindless self indulgence but i dont support them (bc they said slurs they cant reclaim), and i only listen to their songs that are reuploads so i dont support em (^__^)!!
Exactly! I have always loved Tim Burton’s work and I still do but his problem with diversity in his movies is something I can’t ignore and is an obvious problem. You can be a fan of someone’s work and even still be a fan of the person and still acknowledge the problems.
Very well said! Art criticism is a very large part of the art community, and is important for creative growth. I personally find an entirely white cast in all his films feels forced and awkward. People shout out about forced diversity without realizing the "only whites" casting is forced and often times unrealistic.
Very true. There was also a point where every actress had platinum blonde hair (in general, not in his films) like you can't even have different hair colors. There was a movie with Jake Gyllenhaal AND Ryan Reynolds . . .That seems forced.
It really depends on the movie, but even if you made a historically accurate movie about the Rus in 800, even in THAT society they may have had non-white people, because globalization is not new just much more prevalent. Maybe if the movie was made about early colonization of Iceland it would make sense to restrict it to white only actors... If making a movie about China before first contact between the Roman Empire and China you'd have 0 white actors.
@@joannawinters6592 yeah, you could argue that because his movies take place in fantasy land, an all white cast is perfectly reasonable. But then we have Tim burton (and others) purposely dreaming up and creating this fantasy land where... everyone is white! They just sit down in their creative brain storming sessions and think to themselves "but what if this make up world was only white people". Sounds a bit...
As someone who loves the Tim Burton aesthetic and was raised on Nightmare Before Christmas and Frankenweenie I still feel yucky about his view on diversity and what he’s said about POC being in his films. POC would be just as effective in his aesthetic as white people are. I love his art and aesthetic but not him as a person.
Never let the creator's personal views and opinions taint respect and admiration for their art. They must be separated as different entities as many others have poured their creativity and work into making these pieces of Tim Burton's art and to invalidate their work would be criminal. I completely agree with your opinion.
@@Nathan-jc7wy - No, not never. Sometimes art is a subconscious expression of the artist's values and if you don't want to absorb that or help propagate it to others, it's valid to evaluate and discard.
can we talk about how salem can pull off anything she wears? i love how she bases her outfits off of the video's topic too. also this was the perfect video for halloween, and i loved it. (i dont know her pronouns my bad if i got them wrong)
As an artist and director with a lot of sway he can stay true to his original visions, however at the end of the day the film industry is a business. The choices he is making aren't good for business. His last few movies have underperformed. If he wants to continue to work he needs to make his films more accessible to a diverse audience or he will become antiquated and unemployed.
Saying some races or skin colors don't "go with your aesthetic" seriously sounds like he is too lazy to improve or experiment a little. He is a pro, so he is supposed to know how ridiculous this sounds from a character design point of view. It's like saying Cats don't fit my style so I'm not going to acknowledge their existence or at least TRY to make a concept art of a cat, ever. Sounds like an excuse a very immature amateur artist would come up with.
Agreed! I've seen even 'kawaii/pastel' artists refuse to draw black people or darker skinned people in general bc it doesn't 'fit'. Like????!!!!! WHAT DO U MEAN???? REFERENCES ARE SO HELPFUL
No, it is literally just that - it does not fit his aesthetics so he does not want to. Yes, many things do really exist in this world, but that does not mean they will inspire us or that we should include every one of them just because, solely, they exist.
First of all, Tim Burton is Jewish; he's not European nor "white" but, one could easily argue that the reason one of the first self-made American millionaires was a black woman who provided beauty products to fellow black women. Would you prefer that all wealthy powerful corporations headed by European and Jewish people just make everything and cater to you "inclusively" and thus take the spots from smaller black business owners and artists? You do realize that the whole "integration movement" in America essentially nuked the African American economy and their small businesses as the novelty of white and Jewish owned buisnesses proved to be more enticing for African Americans. They are a small demographic which makes up what, 14%? Even less in European Countries. You are being tricked AGAIN by white and Jewish corporations into demanding something that will be extremely economically and socially destructive in the long run, but whatevs..
@@yeetnama9094 Being Jewish does not make you European even if there are Jewish people all over the world now lol? I really do not understand your point of view, i mean i do, but i beg to disagree because of many points there : First of all even if I am European myself, European and Hollywood and commercial movies themselves really do not include anything related to my nationality or my country, In many ways i fail to "recognise" myself there and they really do not cater to me l, because you know, even in Europe there are many various nationalities and tribes within those countries and nationalities. Implying that being of white race is just being white (sentences like : shut up you are just plain white), is racist also in it's core belief because it implies that no one of "white race" has no cultural heritage and cultural/national diversity in it's core roots, which is i think we can agree bullshit that can say only those who are not aware of such complex themes. So to circle around, no even if i am white i am really not catered to or included in the commerical movies. I do not even fit Eurocentric beauty standards, hell i do not even fit general beauty standards lol. What bothers me more is perpetuating some gruesome stereotypes about my country, such as portraying us always as terrorists, or war criminals (you know how in American movies there are always either Russian or Serbian guy who are terrorists, lol), which is a really dangerous game since it enhances some wrong believes that are opening old - and current - political wounds and perpetuating some false propaganda about us when in reality only we know what really happened in our country and we are suffering to this day for it, but the world still see us as barbarians, criminals etc. I am writing this because i would like for people of all colors to understand that even "white" nations are struggling because of geo-political tides, and that being born white or being born in Europe really does not make you privileged if you are born in the country that is considered to be the underdog. Just like ethnic minorities in other countries, who are just living the ilusion of the democracy, same goes for us except that we are a "minority" in Europe. Secondly, i consider the whole commercial industry trash. Really. In every single point And i would say that the best solution is just to stop trying to fit in there and impose yourself there, just stop consuming it and turn to creating your own content, for the people who would love to see it. Because really, no one of us is going to win in battling huge corporations, not in this way that is because this is the way the whole society is made up right now. Only when the people bring down that system, some things in the other industries will change, for now it is just a useless fight. Why would everyone want to be in the Hollywood movies and commercial magazines and all of that i really do not get it? Do i come to Africa and cry that i do not fit their beauty standards lol.? Of course not. Why then the constant need of ethnic people to fit Europe's beauty standards, because culturally those are 2 different continents and of course that part of the world is going to have some other beauty standards based on their specific cultural imprint. That is not racism, that is just natural. It is not enough for you that you are deemed beautiful in your country but now demand that every single culture in this world finds you beautiful? I am sorry i do not get it, it just seems like a spoiled personality trait. Really, for many of us who are marginalized in this society there are far bigger problems than if you are seen as beautiful in XY countires.
i think one important thing that people forget about when discussing Burton that I find endlessly frustrating is that The Corpse Bride was actually based on a Jewish folk tale and yet the characters aren't Jewish and the story has no hints of Judaism (the characters are married in a church, a Christian wedding, etc.)
@@thebestcheese4940 not at all! While I and my immediate family have not practiced for a couple of generations, I do have several Jewish family members and Jewish friends, and I have both heard the story from them and been told how the Corpse Bride is basically a christianized ripoff of the original story.
@@addietrademark432 damn.... i'll make sure to google it! watching the video i was rmbing about this movie and thinking fondly of it, but whew. this sure changes it all! thanks a lot for your answer :-)
just food for thought: I am Mexican and honestly I would not want aTim Burton monetize dia de los muertos. Disney and James Bond already did it. If you dive deep, it has definitely changed the tradition dynamics both in Michoacan and Mexico city. (now making a big show for tourists) I understand your comment to make a point but I believe that will give a bigger problem with appropriation so counterpoint on that proposal! All in good faith Salem!
This is what I was curious about! I feel like it would be difficult and almost more controversial for him to create a movie about something he obviously has zero respect for. I was curious as to how how artists in general could walk the line of inclusivity without stepping over into appropriation. I know where the lines are personally, but in a general sense it seems like a move like that for him would anger people more.
I'm sorry for that. It's a sad reality most people fail to acknowledge appropriately. I'm curious how you'd feel regarding Megalo Box 2 : Nomad It's an anime. About boxing but the it's pretty interesting. Please let me know if you're interested (or Not) in telling me what you think of its representation of Mexican/South American-Hispanic culture
I agree. It would have to be him only producing and letting people in the culture do it. I think he can do what he does which is tell eurocentric horror stories or stories set in colonised america and still make it diverse in casting.
Small nitpick: lolita didn’t start out as pastel and bright colors. Gothic Lolita was first then the sweet ones became popular later. Otherwise I loved your video
@@loveoflife3081 as karlymarx said, the book is unrelated. In the video they said made it a point that lolita is hyper femme originally sweet and later on gothic which wasn’t true. It’s not that big of a deal and doesn’t negate the overarching theme of the video thus why I said “small nitpick”
as a poc, I feel like poc’s aren’t necessarily excluded from trying different aesthetics but I feel like more pocs pressure on me to explain myself when I like “white people” things. I haven’t had the experience of a white person telling me i can’t participate in a certain aesthetic but more of my poc friends will call me “not black”
Yes hard agree, or saying you are expressing or a bad example, when they are the ones being a bad example limiting poc but letting white people not have such expectations of limitations. Her being into alt fashion, anime & K-pop surely she just have received the same judgement?
idk i've definitely experienced both, especially when you get to more online spaces and ask for advice, even if you just mention being poc in passing. that might just be because i mostly into goth aesthetic but i have had a lot of people, both poc and non-poc, tell me that i can't wear the clothes i enjoy wearing :/
It feels so gross to me that Tim Burton is clearly aware of his lack of diverse casting and favouritism toward white actors, and rather than trying to do better or acknowledging the issues, he just uses his aesthetic as an excuse, as if people of colour or people who aren't skinny can't be goth too. I know when I saw Miss Peregrine's Home for Peculiar Children I noticed that the only person of colour was the villain, and that bothered me, but I didn't really think about Tim Burton's involvement and how this is a pattern of his, at the time. To be honest, I don't really think directors like Tim Burton tackling stories to do with other cultures or themes of race is a good idea because they'd 100% mess it up, but I think just simply acknowledging that people that aren't white and skinny exist by allowing them to be in his films is really the least he could do. Alternatively, if he felt he wanted to make films about other cultures and stuff it'd be cool if he got writers/directors from those cultures to create the films alongside him. Rick Riordan did a similar things with a series of books where he got other authors of different backgrounds to write about their mythologies/traditions in a similar way to how he wrote the Percy Jackson books, because he knew he wouldn't be the best person to tell those stories but he wanted to help those stories be seen.
I’m a millennial goth who grew up never questioning the “genius” of Tim Burton films, but I really appreciate this take. I didn’t really think about it growing up but I think this is an important call out. So many of your video topics have me looking at things I take for granted in new, fresh ways. I appreciate you and what you do
Damn. I’m so grateful for this video. Not fitting the “aesthetic” was something that has always deeply affected me. Especially in my teens. I felt like I couldn’t wear anything because I was too brown and too chubby and my hair is curly. Especially when I grew up around white passing people. Hearing that this is something that affects lots of people is really helpful and I don’t feel so alone in it. And it really helps me realize that it’s not my skin or my shape or my hair that’s the issue. It’s the lack of inclusion.
“Poc can’t cosplay as their favourite character thing” reminded me of when I would play pretend in 1st grade, I wanted to be a vampire and everyone called me a vampire (for pretend) but I realized “Oh, I can’t be a vampire. I’m not pale.” :(
As an artist myself I feel some responsibility to consciously be a part of the inclusivity trend, including more diverse body types, ages, and skin tones in my work. But on the whole, variety is just more fun! Why limit yourself to the same standard over and over? Branch out! Draw something new! 🖤 Excellent video as always🦆
20:21 I literally stopped wearing kawaii clothes and sold all my stuff bc I got so tired of people telling me that, as a black girl, I can't be kawaii. It literally made me feel like I was appropriating when I put on the clothes so I just stopped.
That's super messed up! I love kawaii black girls, we need more of us! Like chocolate and strawberries no one can do it better! I'm sorry you had to deal with those folks..if you ever pick up kawaii fashion again you will have this..random commentors' support 😂💖👸🏾
As a long time Tim burton fan, I was very disappointed when I got word recently that he was publicly excluding poc in his casting bc we didn’t fit his aesthetic. His aesthetic is everything to me, he’s what got me into the magic of spookiness and goth styles all together, but I’m also saying this as a dark-skinned arab. So people saying that Tim burton was very clear about the fact (at the time) that he consciously excluded people who looked like me was beyond heartbreaking ;-; In more lightening news, Tim Burton recently showed his hand in creating the show adaptation of the Addams Family on Netflix called “Wednesday” and she is canonically Latina and has perfectly balanced the aesthetic of the Addams Family AND Tim Burton. Is the show just an adaptation? Yes. Is it good? I haven’t watched it myself other than the trailers (my older sister watched it and thought it was amazing but looking at Twitter they had a LOT to complain about. Then again it’s Twitter so- LOL). Does this leave me hopeful for what Tim may start to consider more in his later works? Yes it does :3
I feel like in this situation we need to distance ourselves from asking old white creatives to change and care about representation. Instead we need to start actually supporting POC creatives, writers and directors. I came to realise specially in YA books that most writers are white women and Poc simply do not exist in their universes and if they do it's not very frequently and their lack of exposure makes them ill-equipped to portray Poc in a respectful manner. We as people have power, regular people made ppl like Bella poarch famous simply for doing the bare minimum. If we want to see an industry that represents us well (not just cheap caricatures), we need to start supporting Poc creators enough to make companies view them as profitable.
This makes sense. I’ve always wanted to write amazing stories with a lot of diversity, I’m just always afraid I’ll portray it in a disrespectful or inaccurate light. I don’t have a lot of exposure, and I’m not quite sure how to get more exposure either, so…?
It’s also to just appreciate proper art, what I mean by this is sometimes even PoC content isn’t well done and just a remake of white content except it’s ✨PoC✨ which is again the bear minimum. I am saying this as a PoC who has been taking in PoC content for a while now but is kinda frustrated at the lack of creativity and originality
I just want to add, that using Bella Poarch (a PoC woman) as your example isn't the best option, but you are 100% valid that her platform grew by her doing bare minimum. However, because of her now big platform, she is using it to her best ability to create (in my opinion) fantastic music that speak about her personal experiences (ie: her song Inferno is based about her SA experience). Maybe you should've used predominantly white groups like Team Ten, Tana Mongue, & etc who did way worse as an example. Idek how those groups even have platform, but they still do.
I’m willing to bet 99% of the dislikes are people that don’t want to watch the whole video because they don’t agree with it. I love the aesthetics of the time burton style, I’m a goth myself, but seriously how can you say death doesn’t fit everyone
Well, different culture sees death differently; I wouldn’t even bother to fit into that. His work is too hopeless 😭 we see death in a different light spiritual, while his is visual present looks like they’re aging as the movie is rolling
I’ve noticed in recent years an increase in diversity, seeing new faces and characters that’s really exciting. You can see the change start from his 2019 film ‘Dumbo’ (with multiple poc) to Burton’s new upcoming Netflix series ‘Wednesday’ starring Wednesday Adams as Jenna Ortega (of Mexican and Puerto Rican background). Maybe he’s had a change of perspective since Peregrine in 2016.
I feel like she def should have included and talked about this in her video to actually talk about what she wants to talk about but didn't so im glad u commented this bc I didn't know he was doing that, glad he is including more poc as it shouldn't be THAT hard if ur as popular as he is bc Ima go out on a limb here and say poc have always been in his audition rooms so im glad poc are getting the opportunities they desire and deserve in his movies
I remember one time I dressed up as a character from one of his films called Vincent as the kid. And was instantly told how his aesthetic wasn’t fit for me as I was black and even made. So hearing my favorite stop motion animator say how my skin wouldn’t fit his aesthetic was kinda hurtful.
I’m a black cosplayer and no matter what character I cosplay I will get the “that character isn’t black” line. It’s hard to do anything you love knowing you’ll be immediately judged for something you can’t control.
I’m so sorry this happens to you. I’m white and not into cosplay but I do know how much joy it brings people. I wish I was into it because it looks so fun. But please keep going, keep finding that joy. I think I’d tell those people imagination is the heart of cosplay (I think anyway) so they should use theirs. ❤
Sigh people is just so judgemental, it is a cosplay, it won't change the original character, just like how gender bending characters is fun, it is a "what if" a different take, just let it be people
Your friends are a little uptight. Last year my niece went as the joker and she's a girl but she looked really cute. Isn't it supposed to be about the outfit and makeup you use.
Please continue cosplaying whoever you want! I'm Japanese and it drives me nuts when people (racists) are suddenly into racial accuracies of cosplaying characters, but have no qualms about white people cosplaying Japanese characters (or just characters of color in general). These are just flimsy excuses to veil their anti-blackness. Just ignore them and keep doing what you love!
That hair comment really hit me, I’m Arab, with a TON of hair, it was my very first insecurity, it started very young (maybe the age of 4-6), I was surrounded by the idea of being hairless as more beautiful, and having hair as “dirty” and “unfeminine”. It’s awful. I believe that hair removal shouldn’t be pressured onto every women, I think we should be brought up to be confident in it, then later make the choice PERSONALLY on whether or not we would rather keep it or not. However, I’m still so incredibly embarrassed of my hair, I love long sleeves, I love to cover my hands with them. I’m 14 now.
I really hope this way of thinking changes for you in the future, I'm Greek and we also tend to be hairy (both guys and girls) and I have a few friends who were born with lots of hair on their bodies, arms, face etc, but I'm telling you they look AMAZING!!! I personally wouldn't have noticed that if they haven't mentioned it themselves cause it really doesn't make you any less beautiful!!! I hope you can love yourself the way it is, cause based off of the ppl I know who are naturally very hairy, you're probably veeeeery pretty yourself!!! :))
As you grow you'll become more confident. I won't say it's easy and you'll immediately grow out of it bc that's just not the case. The media pushes a standard of beauty that doesn't fit us. You're still very young, so seeing this is difficult for you. I understand. I had the SAME issue when I was a tween/teen. As a 21 year old college student I don't really mind it as much as I did when I was little. Sometimes I'm a bit insecure about my body hair but it's definitely not as bad. It'll get better with time.
@@pianomelo1046 tysm for ur reply, I’m not sure if I’ll ever be completely be confident just because it’s such an intense insecurity that started out so young but I sure hope so. Even little things like pulling my mask up all the time because my moustache is so visible if I don’t wax it that week I hope to grow out of. But for now, thanks for ur encouraging words :).
He can say he doesn't want forced diversity to justify not having more people of colour but tbh his quirkiness a bit forced to me these days. my dominant impression of Alice in Wonderland was "look how wacky my film is" which I know, Alice in Wonderland :P but I've seen other Alice films that were utterly bizarre but felt less like it was trying so hard to be, if you get me. The strangeness was baked in to the project, it wasn't just a sticky marinade. I dunno I just think he peaked a long time ago, I don't feel the same spark in more recent stuff that I did on earlier films
Burton _did_ spit on Lewis Carrol's grave with that rendition of Alice. Even animated Disney version kept better the spirit of the book (and I'm pushing the envelope with that statement).
The thing about "poc can't cosplay as their favorite characters" reminds me of when I was in 4th grade and I got paired in group full of girls with lighter skin than me for a roleplay/ skit thing about how people with money should treat homeless people. My friends legit told me that I should play the homeless person cause I looked like I could be homeless.
I'm gonna be honest, I didn't really understand why everyone was so pressed at first. Now that I've been educated on the history of his films and the gothic subculture, I feel a lot differently. You're so right about the fact that he HAS to know about these issues in the goth community because he's surrounded himself around it for so long. Thanks for the eye opener
This is exactly why I love Salem bc she doesn’t just sit there and try to cancel people or trends, instead she explains what they did wrong an give us and them a New perspective to look at. Thank you for everything that you do Salem🤍😊🙌
I love Tim Burton's works. And I also critique him on his lack of diversity while respecting the work that he creates. I love Tim Burton films and watch them every Halloween; I also acknowledge that he really needs to include more diversity in his films because they're really lacking in that department.
Why should he do that tho? the lack of diversity doesn't seem a problem to me, everybody has their own battles based on their own experience, maybe for Tim Burton the rappresentation of poc people isn't a priority in his creative work and I think it's perfectly fine, there are many other artists that chose to direct their work towards the achievement of a more inclusive society, but nobody should feel imposed to add something to their creative work in order to satisfy people's believes. Art is strongly influenced by one's own experience in life, it's a way of expressing one's unique pov, we cannot push our believes into the artists that we like, we cannot push Tim Burton to add more diversity in his work, he probably never thought much about minorities and focus his life on different things, that's perfectly normal, because I repeat, everybody has their own battles and problems. I hope my thought is clear, it can be a little bit difficult for me to express what I'm thinking by text and in english.
@Zenarx maybe he could express himself better, but I don't see nothing wrong wtih that either, we cannot impose our own believes in other people's creative work, if for you diversity is important, then follow and support the artists who are using their work to achieve a more diverse society, but I don't see the point in trying to change Tim Burton's aestethic and artistic work, because it's HIS work, the result of HIS own experience, probaly very different from the poc's experiences.
@@pedroloto the thing is, that his movies are famous, and he's someone recognized, if he's just closing himself in a bubble where black people don't exist then that's bad aswell i mean, i get what you mean, but he's someone inspirational and so his films, his job his more big than what he is
@@pedroloto i really understand what you say, and i agree at some part, but people are getting hurted by his lack of representation like, we aren't asking for more than a few black characters
Artist here! I would like to point out that diversity is actually super important to character design, outside of ethical and political conversations (although those are very important too). Otherwise you get what is very popularly known as "same face syndrome". Your work begins to look less interesting and unique over time because you've found yourself in a rut of drawing the same face and body types over and over again, making your overall portfolio rather dull. Good artists can work with a huge variety of character designs and shapes in their work WHILE keeping their style intact, it's one of the basics. Different silhouettes and contrasting color schemes (aka your main characters having different skintones, hair textures, body types, and details) for your characters makes each one stand out and look much more memorable. Imagine if every character Walt Disney ever drew looked exactly like Mickey Mouse but with different ears. That wouldn't be a stylistic choice. That would just be lazy. What I'm getting at isn't that Tim Burton is a bad artist, but that creating diverse characters is not and should not ever be "out of someone's style". That's a cop-out response. This is one of the first things you learn when studying design, which I'm more than sure he has.
As a fellow artist, I was going to comment about the "same face syndrome" too but I found your comment and since it's very well explained, I'll leave a like instead to help it rank higher.
I love this take bc it's so true. People can argue these things all day long but you'll find that the dismissive ones have never had to feel like anything other than the default. I've loved Tim Burton since I was a kid and I was a punk/scene kid. You'd be shocked (or maybe not) how much bullying and stuff came strictly from me not being "pale enough" bc "Black people aren't ____". This is typically by the same kids that would racistly call me Aunt Jemima.
honestly i have big respect for you as a creator. you take things that are SO controversial and argue it to a big audience, while expecting hate, backlash, etc. definitely one of my favorite RUclipsrs because you say what must be said, TRUTH MATTERS! and discussion between these topics is always good. tysm salem 💕
I dont get how being black just "dont fit his aesthetic", for example, a black corpse bride character would probably have also blue skin, but dark blue and it would look fire. And the color palette would still work, especially bc emilys hair was dark blue too
The thing with Corpse bride is that her face and her colouring already looks like she could even be black but how is that supposed to be showed in the story? She supposed to say she is black?
I was thinking the same thing!! Iv'e heard people argue that "It wouldn't make sense for Emily to be anything but white because it takes place in Victorian England!!! She came from a wealthy family, and black people were slaves and servants back then!!" But that's such bullshit. Tim burtons movies aren't about depicting reality. They're about suspending disbelief and entering a reality similar to our own, but where fantastical events can take place. So if we can imagine a world where we can accidentally marry the dead, or a girl can crawl through a little door in her house and enter an alternate dimension; why is it suddenly "too unrealistic" if in THIS Victorian England black people weren't slaves or servants. Why is a world where white power structures don't exist more incomprehensible than resurrection, ghosts, zombies, and talking animals? They don't want historical accuracy, they want a white narrative that they can relate to.
Because racist people will use anything as an excuse to hide their racism. The people who make these arguments dislike Black people and the idea of their favorite characters being Black is horrible to them. I've seen backlash against so many Black folks of any shade. Racists will use any reason that sounds even remotely excusable and not offensive to justify themselves. Aesthetic - I'm not racist it doesn't match the vibe, even though BIPOC/POC have worn certain or designed certain aesthetics for years. Not realistic: Would gladly ignore and suspend disbelief of other fantastical portions of films/tv/videogames in the supernatural genre but not when it comes to race, and also ignores wealthy Black folks from other countries. Historical accuracy: fashion is never historically accurate in films, people often mix different elements of cultures in supernatural genres, there are literally dead corpses walking around how is that real in any sense.
Watching this in 2022 and Wednesday by tim burton is on netflix with literally the whole family being portrayed as Latinos. I think he did listen to you guys...
And what If they lived in a place that was not multicultural/racial in the movies? What If the story just didn't involve anyone of different races and creator did not imagine them? Do you know those non multiracial places just exist too in real life? Forcing diversity is exactly what you are doing. Just place a Poc in just to have one instead of Poc having their own stories and being naturally added in, that is what you are encouraging.
@@aleera8257 why does it matter.... if i as a black person move to japan, where nearly everyone is japanese, does my story need a reason tied to my race? why can't i just randomly be there? it shouldnt even matter. Throw a black person into a 1910s movie set in france, there doesnt need to be some explanation. POC can just exist places, both irl and in media...
@@blushpinkbunny you're terribly wrong, I can have weeks on end that I will not see anyone outside of my race and culture. So no you don't randomly always exist as a poc even in real life therefore you don't have to always exist in any story or movie either.
@@Imxel21 'White' is sort of a fallacy for the Victorian era. Many non-Europwans would conscider Dracula as 'white', whereas the most important thing that set him apart was that he was a foreigner. Europe is really a lot more variates than just 'white'. If he hadn't of been rich and aristocratic he would have been ostracised much more than he already was. He would have to be atleast Nordic to be accepted by English aristocracy. And then he'd still be a foreigner. The story would have been the same if Dracula was Asian, African, etc. As long as he was rich, aristocratic (in his own right), and an anglophile still. He would never have been accepted into English society though. So if you wanted to make a story accurate to England, you couldn't make anything with poc English aristocracy, or nobility just outsiders and lower class. Not that there were many ppc in England until the 20th century (so few as to be of note). But you could very easily make that story accurately in France for instance. Tim Burton's aesthetic is almost always positioned on landed characters (old money). He could easily just make stuff up and insert poc where there weren't any (middle and upper classes), or focus on poorer class characters, or more modern settings (outside of the cities is still very ethnically homogenous), or outside of England. But he's not interested in that.
"This isn't a situation where people of colour are criticising Tim Burton by not understanding his artwork, if anything it's peple of colour begging him to be part of his unverse, because the truth is that there are a couple of people who are being excluded, who feel left out, who feel like outsiders, like they have nowhere to belong. And I just find it incredibly ironic when the whole point of his artwork and narrative is about dismantling the feelings associated with being an outcast." As a die hard Tim Burton fan this is honestly so true and amazingly worded!
I feel like this whole "doesn't fit the aesthetic " it's kinda saying that he doesn't view poc as having classic beauty in a more poetic way. He can cast who he wants but it is kinda bad that he doesn't see other facets of beauty on poc rather than just the standards
honestly that type of thought disgusts me. its basically saying non white people cant exist in a beautiful quirky world - like how is that supposed to make poc kids feel who love these films but dont see themselves in it ? like sorry hun but you dont fit the ✨aesthetic✨
@@followingheartlines oh it killed me as a kid being on goth tumblr and not having representation. Not saying black goths aren't there, but I was so brainwashed by white majority media that I didn't seek them out at first. Once I started following BIPOC people I felt so much better about myself. Representation matters 😭
@@mightymeatymech I mean, just playing devils advocate here, I’m a poc myself, but i think the fact that his aesthetic is deathly looking people, and everyone knows you get PALER when you die, the take makes sense? It’s just badly worded
@@BunnyGxre Like she said in the video he can easily portray poc in other ways like monolids, bigger bodies, curly hair, and other features. He clearly just doesn't think we as poc are good enough.
i agree with all the points you made in this video, also especially loved the part where you talk about POC having to constantly defend their femininity; as an indian woman, that really hit lol, as soon as you don't fit the beauty standard, you're criticized for being unfeminine, but even being feminine is demonized and seen as weak, so there's really no winning. also, girl, you are literally distractingly beautiful. i could not stop looking at your eyes in this video, they're such a pretty shape and so expressive, and just. you as a whole are freaking gorgeous. thank you for making content that takes women of color into account and makes us feel represented and seen
Yeah like you can still give off a death look on poc like you can add some white contacts and some dead things like bones. Also I love your necklace and makeup in this video it looks amazing and very spooky.
@@trixxartarchive7705 i tried that a few months ago when i got into his work and noticed the lack of poc. The character turned out so cool even thought im extremely amateur at design...i was confused as to why there was such a lack of diversity when it could look amazing, especially since he is supposed to be so creative
It's interesting that toward the end you say Day of the Dead would be a good concept for Burton to work with. In interviews leading up to the release of Corpse Bride, he actually cited Day of the Dead imagery as an influence on his depiction of the land of the dead. As also a (half) Latina, it made me excited at the time (I was like 14), but I've since become low key resentful that he played with Latin imagery while excluding Latinos from his work.
I was made fun of for my arm hairs so much in high school that before we went on a beach trip i made my mom help me wax my whole body and got a really bad rash because of it. I was never self conscious about my arm hairs before that. Now i still think about it
I feel your pain. i started waxing and threading my mustache at a young age because children at school would make fun of me. every now and then people still mention that i have body hair. like bruh. thanks for reminding me, i totally forgot
girrrrl your videos are always so intellectual & well thought-out & insightful & you're literally so f*cking smart. you're encouraging important conversations that need to be had and i'm so happy you're continuing to do so despite people's stupid comments. it's brave and takes major courage! tbh getting hate comments means you're talking about REAL SH!T and it's reaching A LOT of people, which is positive! keep going boo boo xxx
As a half latina, I was always teased by boys that I'm hairy everywhere. I felt like a gorilla and always begged my dad to let me shave. When I finally got permission to use a razor, I shaved my arms first and then my back since those were the spots kids noticed first. Til this day, I still shave my arms. I still think my hairy arms would be put off by people now. I'm pale with dark long hairy arms. It's hard to embrace it
you are beautiful, I have hair on my arms and the kids that point that stuff out are the same ones who are the most insecure about themselves, pay those bozos no mind and love yourself the best way you can, stay safe
Latino is not a race, if by latino yall are meaning mestizos, amerindians are more hairless than white anglosaxons. Your mediterranean heritage on the european side of your latinamerican family is what gives you the hair. We descend from the greatest civilizations mankind has seen, the greeks, the romans. They were and are all very hairy people, the Mediterraneans. And also among the most beautiful people on earth!
@@mrducky1635 it matters because latino is not a monolith. We come in all colors, like coffee. This means we look extremely different from the next person yet we all share a cultural background. “Half latino” makes it sound as if its something genetical, which it isnt
“you can love and respect the artist and the art and still critique it”
*as an artist i highly appreciate that like i need some CONSTRUCTIVE critisisim to keep improving my work thank u*
👏
yes exactly -a fellow artist
i love ur pfp!!
Same
This! Nobody gets anywhere when all they got around them is yes men, the world needs (constructive) critisism
The "poc can't cosplay as their favorite character thing" reminds me of when I was a kid playing pretend with my friends, I was always assigned Mulan because I was asian while everyone else got to pick what princess they wanted to be. I wanted to be Ariel :(
Oh my god this always happened to me as a kid! I even had a person say I looked exactly like Mulan even tho I’m not even Chinese 😭
I'm so sorry for what you went through =(
Pfft
Same
Hi I'm tiana
Lol as a ginger I was ALWAYS Ariel. Typecast
:(
"black people also die" is the best thing I've ever heard. since i saw that tiktok I've been thinking about how black people are so underrepresented in media, especially horror because we die too, we run from things, we.... EXIST
Blacks are the first to die in horror movies
@@poech2pep271 yeah it's a common trope. they dont want us around so they get rid of us first
@cinamonrollcutie 2 *jordan, but yes
THIS!! We don't get much representation, but when we do it's either stereotypical, negative, or barely there.
But like…what if y’all didn’t 👀👀💦
When I was in elementary school, boys tried to lift my skirt to see my thick leg hair and said I was a man. It is more than an aesthetic. It is about the representation and normalization of POC bodies
Bro at such young age it’s sad you g boys are manipulated Into thinking woman having hair is bad
Oh my god, I’m so sorry you went through that. I hope you’re feeling better
Dude everyone has leg hair, not everything has to be racism
@@nicolemelo8994 thick leg hair though, they mean
@@nicolemelo8994 woooooosh
It's so easy to make darker skinned people have the 'dead' look. U just need to use greyer brown tones and contouring. Take notes from coraline! Wybie fits the spooky vibe completely.
@I have no personality outside my sexuality I meant more the grayish tones of his skin. I definitely think it should be applied to darker skinned people as well.
Edit: I dont know about wybie being mixed though I always thought he was just supposed to be light skinned since we've never seen his parents, but its definitely a possibility.
I thought Wybie was white :00
@@j0ph11el hes just light skinned. His grandma is darker skinned and also black.
Lol, it’s easy to make a dead looking POC, if you just hit up a morgue for some research. It’s not like their aren’t Black and Brown corpses, all over the world, to check out. These people act like only White people have dark thoughts, deal with macabre topics in their folklore, or struggle with their own mortality. The Goth aesthetic is born out of a certain attitude and emotional state. Pretty sure feelings and thoughts don’t pass by people who don’t “fit the aesthetic”
True ! I as an artist didn't understand why anyone would think it's hard ??? Like no , it isn't hard at all.
I mean it's not EXACTLY the same aesthetic, but look at Coraline. It has poc in it and it has that same vibe as his films, proving that he could add poc and it still work.
THIS
Wybie! Iloved him
Yeh, and thats why I love Laika, the studio who did Coraline, because they have a very diverse characters in their movies. Not just diverse in race but overall representationof different minorities. They literally had another film with a gay character in a kid's show but it wasn't the stereotypical gay character we see on the mainstream media.
EXACTLY! Agree 💯%
No one said he couldn't, just that he doesn't HAVE to. There's no need to force POC into a project if you don't understand how to write or present them.
Yesterday I learned that Corpse Bride is based on a Jewish folktale and he just removed all Jewish elements from the story. I really don’t like how he treats other cultures, ethnical groups and religious groups. If you’re curious, the story is called “The Finger”.
Edit: it’s a Russian-Jewish folktale. It wasn’t mentioned by the person I learned it from, but I was corrected.
Forreal? 😮😬 WTF
Wow. So one of his most notable works is actually an appropriation of Jewish culture, done in the style of German expressionism. This is so bad.
**spits drink**
Really???
@@Definitelynotabot4 if you read any version of the OG tale, some are a bit more explicit, it becomes VERY apparent. Like he almost took the story word for word in some parts.
Tim Burton proved himself wrong with Frankenweenie (2012), which has POC characters. Toshiaki is Japanese, and Nassor is most likely Egyptian (his character is a reference to the movie Mummy, and his pet is seen buried in an Egyptian-style mausoleum, so it’s very likely he is ethnically Egyptian). Nassor’s design is primarily based on Boris Karloff, who’s father is half Indian on his mother’s side, which he retains some ethnic features from. So while Nassor’s ethnicity is not as clear as Toshiaki’s, he’s most certainly not white.
They are quite visually distinct from most of the other characters, but they fit in with his claymation style perfectly, which just goes to show Burton dragging his feet for so many years to add POC characters to his film was absolute bullshit. They fit into the style fine.
His movie Mars Attacks also had black main characters, even though this was a minor character there was also a cop character in Edward Scissorhands who was black.
Now I love the Burton aesthetic and I also love his movies (well his older ones) but his excuse for not being more diverse is pretty yeah...
I can understand not wanting to offend people with how some characters are being written (as someone who wants to be inclusive and diverse when making characters I try to make sure to avoid what could be seen as tokenism or harmful representation, I believe everyone deserves to see themselves represented and have a character that looks like them) but it shouldn't be hard for him to do research or something.and like you said his past movies contradict that
@@cheshirerose2001 i havent seen mars attacks, and i was primarily referring to main characters so edward scissorhands is on thin ice (badumtsss). ive seen that movie so many times and i dont even remember the cop lol
there was also his adaptation of charlie in the chocolate factory, where the oompa loompas are played by deep roy, who is primaruly kenyan. the oompa loompas are also clearly meant to be an indigenous tribe of sorts, but honestly? that makes it even more uncomfortable bc they literally get colonized. now, the whole "work in the factory deal in exchange for chocolate as payment" and oompa loompa land were in the book, and i know burton wanted to make a more faithful book adaptation, but like... there were layers that he added which really did not need to go there. in the original print of the book, they were depicted as being from africa, but then in the 70s revised version, they were white bc even Dahl himself realized how uncomfortable that whole colonization plot is, especially since the utilization of slave labor specifically for chocolate production is particularly common in africa...
sorry for rambling there. it just struck me as really uncomfy.
i will say frankenweenie is a very good movie tho, and toshiaki is even voiced by a japanese man so thats a plus. im not sure if youve seen it, so i recommend it! i just wasnt sure if by "older" movies you meant like beetlejuice or what, bc frankenweenie is turning 10 years old this year so its not exactly NEW either. he really returned to form with the claymation and humor, with the added plus of less racism.
@@cheshirerose2001 Also Harvey Dent aka Two Face was played by Billy Dee Williams. And Tim planned on making Williams Two Face eventually down the the line in a sequel. I also heard he wanted Marlon Wayans to play Robin. But that never happened because Burton and WB had a fight over his movies being too dark for kids.
The cop is Edward Scissorhands was black
"people of color characters" you mean characters of color
He definitely has an issue with not being able to envision his art with PoC, but he'll never change so instead of trying to get unwilling artists to do that, why don't we try and lift up PoC creators to the level of Tim Burton who can envision these stories 🦆
THIS IS THE COMMENT IVE BEEN LOOKING FOR THANK YOU
YESSSSS!!!
this
Preach! 👏
Yes! I don't *want* Burton doing Day of the Dead themes, he'd def make missteps over Mexican culture, even if he had a ton of Mexican artists consulting him. What would be good is if he co-produced with a Mexican studio though!
“Black people also die” LMFAO pls the way he just says it always makes me laugh😭💀
Fr 💀
IKR!!
damn i always thought they were immortal....
@@afterimage1925 "black don't crack" actually means there is no aging process and one can only be killed like a vampire. It's true, I was there.
@@robinswampangel ohhh okay i get it now!!!
The fact that Tim Burton himself stated that he felt uncomfortable with black/poc being added into shows and then argued that he never became upset about the lack of yte people in black/poc entertainment boggles my mind; like hello? The fact that black/poc people had to create a space to have movies that included themselves speaks volumes onto itself.
Well...the gothic scene is a minority scene. Its not meant to be super inclusive, but I think a cute brown chick would look cool as a character America would love it, but it's his art...its his universe. Samuel Jackson looked pretty damn good.
@@aestheticbeatz5700 the Goth scene isn’t racially exclusive. Tf
@@aestheticbeatz5700 Yeah, uh, liking a certain aesthetic doesn't make you apart of a minority. And it isnt exclusively for white people. 😐
I want to know where this information is? Because that's a big accusation...
@@PersonTP google it
I remember being in 8th grade as a mexican 12 year old and i wanted to be “emo” so bad but there was only pictures of extremely pale thin and blue eyed women and men. I even had friends who told me I probably wouldn’t have been able to fit that aesthetic because im too “tan” even now i get insecure spending too much time in the sun because in the back of my head i might not fit the aesthetics i like if i get too dark.
I hate how aesthetics are more important than the roots of different subcultures. Like for goth its literally music but aesthetics are now much more important and everybody is dismissing the music and its so sad :'( don't worry about the aesthetic,be yourself and be whatever you want to be !
@@edina4902 as an Elder Emo THIS.
I'm SO sad people told OP they couldn't be emo because of their skin colour. I knew plenty of POC emos in highschool and in MySpace. It's about the clothing and music. Skinny jeans and mostly all black with graphic tees. I still dress emo to this day! 😁
As a Mexican ‘baby bat’ I say f- it and go for it.
I’m more of the Goth/Grunge aesthetic myself. but there’s plenty of Emo poc.
It’s all based off music, not looks.
So don’t worry to much about it because your beautiful/Handsome inside & out.
Just try it out.
it’s better to live happy & comfortable with yourself then caring about what people think for the rest of your life.
It’s a hard thing to do, but you got this.
(Yea I’m aware this is a year late-)
I know so many black and Latina goth girls and tim Burton fans. They are a large part of that and the anime fanbase and I wish they were represented in the art that inspires them. 🖤 This was a really good video girl.
I think they might be happy with his latest work then, Wednesday and Gomez Addams are both played by legitimate hispanic actors
same with brown girls lol
This was a really good comment girl
Just say poc
I mean sure but there is a difference there. There are plenty of white latinas but there are no white black people.
As a black person who LOVES tim burton style and has spent more money on Jack Skellington merch than id like to share, ALOT of those comments “supporting” him, were REACHING lol. I love Tim Burton style and can ALSO admit that theres a problem with diversity in his films. See how easy that was?? 🙄😒
Uh? He literally threw a fit because his coworkers didn't want to name a character a RACIST name towards black people?
@@sirin...... EDIT: I originally completely misunderstood the comment I was replying to because it was rather late at night after a crappy shift at work, so I'm sorry for being a dumbass. The below take is redacted and Tim Burton is explicitly racist, based on the original comment I responded to and the stuff discussed in the video. I'm sorry for misreading.
The redacted statement for context: I haven't seen the full video yet so my opinion might change, but from what i have seen and heard of tom burton, he is more implicitly racist than explicitly racist. He has biases and prejudices, but that doesnt mean he actively hates on black people.
@@sirin...... I think you may have misunderstood their comment..they never implied that he wasn’t problematic…
@@sirin...... Fam you can like someone’s work without liking the person who created it.
Well, the ones that defend him/racists are more than likely not black - they never see the issue with these sorts of things cause they can't relate, so do you & continue to ignore the dusties honey, lol
he doesn't want to "force" diversity, but he was perfectly fine forcing Emma in miss peregrine into an ethereal blonde girl when that literally wasn't her character at all.
THANK YOU
@@punkinboi yeah olive was the one with floating abilities
@@TaeThei ooh, is it a good book? I wanted to read it after watching the film, but never got to it, maybe I should try
@@Sabrina-vc9yt thanks, I'm definitely going to read it)
@@sawsanmohammed1513 I know! I thought I was remembering the story wrong because I remember Olive was like the young sister and it felt weird to me.
As an Asian person I really appreciate this because as a kid I wanted to be white so bad like I wanted blond hair and blue eyes and lighter skin. And it was mainly because that’s all I saw on TV and adds and everywhere. Thank you for touching up on this toppic.
You do realize not all white people have blue eyes and blond hair? Like are you dumb?
@@santaclaus723Are you dumb? You’re chastising a person for sharing a depressing time in their childhood where they questioned and hated their identity because of the oppression they faced as a CHILD. THEY WERE A CHILD.
@@santaclaus723 bro what
And now people want to look Asian because of k beauty trends, just goes to show how dumb media is. Every race is beautiful.
@@notaspeck6104 More like how dumb people are.
He doesn't need to be the only creator of gothic-style movies. As a black goth, I'm writing about the gothic lifestyle from my perspective.
We love to see it 🖤
Link please? (Nvm, found it!)
that the attitude i like
That aesthetic that he uses is called German Expressionism. So if you use the aesthetic you're using German Expressionism. It started in the Cabinet of Dr Caligari which was directed by a german jew.
@@aestheticbeatz5700 and?
To those who say “Tim Burton doesn’t owe you diverse casting” obviously not. But equally we don’t owe him unquestioning support. If you put art out in the public eye - especially if you’re selling it - you will face criticism. Obviously we don’t want said criticism to be hateful, we want it to be constructive, but it’s still important to make that criticism. Even if Burton himself never listens to it, the conversation can affect how other artists approach their work.
As for my Halloween costume, I’m going as a murder of crows - I’ve got a shirt painted with fake blood and I’m currently sewing some little stuffed birds to go on my shoulders. 😄
That outfit sounds so cool! And this is probably the best way to say the problem, it feels like you hit every nail👌🏻
That's a lovely costume idea. I was a hotdog lmao (but hey last year I went all out for a plague doctor because covid)
Absolutely
Absolutely agree that you can question him and criticize the fact that his aesthetic is not your type. The only irony here is that if someone or when someone has a whole black cast or any other race somehow no one sees anything wrong. So are we just ignoring that side of things or is that their way of "balancing the field" because of "history?
OMG THAT'S A GREAT IDEA!! 💡 I might steal it next year lol I bet it looked amazing!!
Your makeup is always ON POINT girl im jealous
Agreed
Ikr 😫
Like she is beautiful 'o'
Poor Henry Selick. I know Tim Burton produced both James and the Giant Peach and The Nightmare Before Christmas, but damn give the actual director of the films some credit guys.
Tim Burton created Nightmare Before Christmas the only reason he didn’t
Direct it was because he was working on the Batman sequel at the time . Henry Selick is a great director too Coraline is his best movie
Tim burton created them
He created the characters and was a major influence especially for NBC
@@georgefreemon2935 James and the giant peach was based on a book
@@quirkyblackenby I was talking about Nightmare
I love Tim Burton’s style, aesthetic & his films, but I still acknowledge that what he said was hurtful & illogical. Constructive criticism doesn’t equal us hating someone.
i love salem, she literally risks getting canceled for truth and justice
tysm
traits of being a boss ig 🤷♀️
@@isi.d5942 gaslight, gatekeep, girlboss.
@@_salemtovar_ YESS
„Canceled“
I so understand the criticism. Just because you like someone's art doesn't mean they can't be criticized🤓
I think “Don’t Starve” and its characters perfectly disprove Tim Burton’s point about looking dead bc they have a very similar aesthetic while also having poc characters
Wybie from Coraline as well (the other wybie at least)
@@ARH611 Henry Selick was the director of Coraline not Burton
And that game is not in black and white, it has colours.
The reason black characters would look weird in a movie like Corpse Bride, is because it doesn't fit the colour pallete, that is a fact
@@volkova6209 ig theyre just a bad artist then. a good artist could make any skintone work, simple as that.
@@oochi-q2e it was in reference to the art style not the directors
I think POC writers/artists should take this as an opportunity to do their own creations and put their own spin on the horror/goth genre instead of waiting for this guy to do it. I love his work, but I would prefer actual POC to tell the stories they want to see represented. Me being Mexican, I would like to see other mexicans tell stories about Day of the Dead, la Llorona, and other folk tales, since it would feel more authentic and well-structured. That’s just my opinion of course, everyone has a valid reason to feel a certain way about the subject.
I totally agree. Which is why my main issue is with the industry gate keepers. because the truth is, if you and I write a book, make art or what ever, we would not get the same recognition. Even if the book etc is as good.
@@theliterarywitch exactly like yes it would be amazing for more poc to make their stories but people aren't gonna listen. People already listen to Tim Burton which is why it's up to people like him to include everyone
Right
@@theliterarywitch yes yes yes to this ! it frustrates me when peoples discussion is around responsibility being on white writers, directors, creators and yes but also who is funding, producing, distributing these stories ? there are poc writing diverse stories but lacking opportunities to share them more widely ~
then watch Coco and Guadeloupe so much Chicano representation
Stan culture is so bizarre. Tim Burton has an Emmy AND a Golden Globe AND his films have been nominated/have won dozens upon dozens of awards. I don't think he is at all insecure about the quality of his work. As Foucault said, “A critique is not a matter of saying that things are not right as they are. It is a matter of pointing out on what kinds of assumptions, what kinds of familiar, unchallenged, unconsidered modes of thought the practices that we accept rest.”
Michel Foucault?? We got some academics here I see 😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍🤌🤌😍
And you just know it’s serious when a Foucault is called for.
What does stan culture has to do with this
@@enjajajajaja That it’s basically against criticism in this case
You can receive plenty of awards and still need to work on your inclusivity skills I mean look at Steven Spielberg's Movies where are the black and Brown people when we're not being stereotypical? Just saying if these folks are so awesome is it only because they were able to make so much money for so many years without putting Back and Brown people in their films unless we are portraying a negative version of our race? just curious.
My favorite is when people of color cosplay anime characters and the comments are all telling them "that character isn't black" yet when white people cosplay these *Japanese* characters who ARE NOT WHITE no one blinks an eye. I think anyone should be able to cosplay any character no matter the race or ethnicity.
yes! I'm a black person and I'm so scared to cosplay anyone other than Katara in public for that exact reason. My favorite cosplay is Kenma from Haikyu and I doubt he'd ever see the outside world because I'm so scared that someone will say something like that and ruin it for me
@@kaisetic3150 I don’t know you but I’m a Japanese person and I personally think you would look incredible in a Kenma cosplay. Skin color and race don’t matter and I’m sick of white people acting like they own our content 😭 you do you and you’ll look better than Sam smith over there I promise
Did you know thw word caucASIANS used to be for asians fun facts, white people are mostly Angelo Saxon
YES, I'VE ALWAYS NOTICED IT OMG.
@@jemimahkendall6579 man, there's a lot more ethnicities in white people than just anglicanism
So many ppl draw Emily black and she’s absolutely GORGEOUS. Ofc she has blue skin but they give her textured hair and “black features” and she fits BEAUTIFULLY.
And fan casting has the save woman of color as Emily and she’s PERFECT and I can picture her in a Tim Burton/live action Corpse Bride movie!
So many white people only see black peoples as brown and nothing else. They don’t see our other features
Okay but Emily is white....? As a POC I really would appreciate if we have our own characters that are people of colour. Not having to erase the fact she's white and make her black or Asian or any race really.
@@inkubator320 exactly! I was so bummed that they are doing that with the new Little Mermaid movie! They even had a black AND deaf mermaid named Melody they could have done a movie on!
@Emma McMahon Not only that, but they act like they made their first black princess, as if Tiana doesn't exist (great character, btw). In general, I don't think you need a character that has the same skin color or whatever to relate or "feel seen."
He doesn’t have to make her black if he doesn’t want to lmao
As someone who grew up obsessed with Tim Burton, now that I’ve grown up I’ve become much more in love with Laika studios. Laika had the first ever openly gay character in animation in the movie Paranorman! They’re really incredible and invent new tech for stop motion films with every movie made. They also made Coraline lol
He was the first?
@@keepyourshoesathedoor It’s crazy right?? Mitch is the first openly gay character in a mainstream animated film
I was so surprised when i first watched it , like no stereotypes or nothing. Just a baddie character that happened to be gay.
@@radmochi7495 for real! He wasn’t used for tokenism and they didn’t make fun of him either lol I think it’s pretty great. He’s such a himbo tho I love him
There's no queerbaiting, no heavy implications and tiptoeing while avoiding being upfront about it, he says it at the end so matter of factly and it's great. He doesn't have to say to the audience "I'm gay! I'm a boy and I also like boys! Isn't that so shocking, because I'm so masculine presenting??" he brings it up in a casual conversation that he has a boyfriend. No sensationalism. It's just a fact :)
as a white person and a large horror fan, this is something i’ve never thought about, and i’m really thankful you took the time to speak about this. “not thinking about” issues like this is a privilege and it’s something i’m still working on but this is a great video and really helpful.
YESSS!!! Us white people really need to start recognizing our privileges in order for any change to happen!!
What are you two talking about? Just stop it get some help
It really makes me so happy as a black person when I see comments like this of people acknowledging their privilege and backtracking to think about this kind of stuff more... I wish there were more people like you who wouldn't just start arguing whenever anyone acknowledges their privilege and start denying stuff. It is the bare minimum, but its still something. So yeah, thank you ig for that.
@@jemimahkendall6579 who hurt you lol
@@nessquik14 As a black person too, I feel the exact same way. 😌
As a black girl, I used to watch anime and when I did, I felt it was really wrong for me to do this. I also got immersed in alternative dressing but felt like I could never fit the aesthetic because I was black. So many people made fun of me when they found out when I watched anime, as it wasn't "meant for me". I'm sick of it. People say that racism doesn't exist anymore, but there is an undercurrent of it. Especially for POC who are females. Do something about this. Now. I felt like I was wrong as a 10 year old and couldn't tell my mum that I liked anime because I was a POC. It's really sad.
*hugs*
Lol my dad read me the filth for watching Naruto when I was like 12. He used to call me and my sister Chelsea and Stacy. Anime is super mainstream now so we won
why was that wrong? because of your race? but i think, if anime is from japanese, and your race is on quote 'wrong' to enjoy it, wasn't that means white people cant too? and only asian is rightful for watching anime?
sorry i had to edit my opinion here because i don't think commenting twice is good. also sorry for my bad english
Same, As an Asian girl I have to secretly jamming rap songs because I fear that it’s not appropriate for me.
@@yothiga ikr. i couldn't be caught listening to them- it's like i *had* to fit into the nerdy, quiet and timid asian narrative.
“you don’t fit the aesthetic” is one way to declare ‘your ethnic features are undesirable & don’t belong’ which is pretty racist IMO 💀
I've been told i don't fit the aesthetic of cute because I am so tall. They are just outing their own narrow mindedness but idk how to reply in a way to actually make them improve rather than be defensive or insult me.
I think one of the reasons that kpop/eastern Asia culture has gained popularity is the wider variety of looks & it's more acceptable to be cute & like things often deemed childish as an adult, for men too.
That made me so sad to hear because I adored that aesthetic and style just to be told "you dont belong"
@͔ Anyone can put their input in at this type of conversation especially when it's to support the side that's excluded. And not you blaming the people who had nothing to do with the whole Russia vs Ukraine thing, acting like the people are the ones to bomb parts of Ukraine ☠️.
@@NotAnotherKuromi This, I'm like 5'5 and like many people I hang out with are like 5'2-'3 and I feel like a gaint but I like cute stuff and want to be cute but I just feel like I can't even as far as I *shouldn't* and it's a constant fight with myself wanting to do things then feeling wrong because I want them
@@thelying2594 5'5" isn't even that tall imo, although I might be giantly biased lol. Try not to let the silly people put you down & just wear what you want & rock it. Looking at others with similar aesthetic & likes might help you see that there are lots of others out there with the same taste who appreciate cute stuff, it helped build my confidence.
What annoys me about the “forced diversity” argument is that so many people use it to defend not ever including poc. I also don’t want to be an afterthought for diversity points, but just including poc in your work isn’t “forced diversity.” Contrary to popular belief, we exist out in the wild too. There doesn’t need to be a “reason” for us to be in your story, which is an argument I often hear as well. We do, in fact, just exist.
Right? People get so up in arms about forced diversity but seem totally okay with forced exclusion
I love your comment
Exactly. There is “no reason” to have white people in your movie. So why does there have to be a “reason” for poc to be in your movies?
Honestly? I don't believe forced diversity even exists.
@@manifestationsofasort Honestly, big agree! I more so refer to the instances when people add poc and then do nothing with the character, showing they were an afterthought. But forced diversity probably isn’t the best term to describe that, it’s more so creators being lazy and just not wanting to be held accountable for it.
This just reminded me. In an art class of mine, we were told to draw ourselves as Tim Burton characters. And I'm a mixed-race Mexican-german. So I had a bit of trouble finding references but I was still able to fit my drawing to his aesthetic. I'm an amateur self-taught artist, so there's no reason someone as talented as Tim Burton can't fit people of color into his works.
Do you realise his movies happen in 18 to 19th century Europe? Do you know how rare would be to find someone black or mixed over there? If it was an African movie where 80%of cast were white you would be call everyone involved racist, being mixed myself I'm just embarrassed of how much your narcissistic ass needs to have your will of having someone like you in the movie just because you want to feel glamorised ... To me seems stupid to put a black or mixed character in Europe at the 18 th century Europe...
@@nightwishlady you are the issue
@@nightwishlady yes bc Tim burton movies are based on realism and historical accuracy
@Fallout_Freak the way you wrote your comment makes it feel like i'm reading bad poetry (hopefully that doesn't "hurt your feelings ;(" /s)
@@sleepygrle6738 😂😂😂
I don't understand how adding other races to a cast is being "politically correct". They're people they exist in the world, if anything it's weird to never include them and act like they don't exist.
i love this comment
Because some people would like to forget that we do exist.
it's the typical characteristic of 'whiteness' which is that being white is neutral and anyone who isn't white is 'political'😕
Because they consider being white the default. I’ve been saying this for a long time.
They say that as if they didn’t just force a white character (like for what?) in Aladdin the live action.
Tim Burton stans really can't grasp the idea that you're allowed to enjoy art while critiquing the artist... I am a huge marvel fan and I enjoy the movies immensely but I'm never going to deny that they are built on military propaganda and are seriously lacking female and POC representation... Y'all need to chill.
And what’s really just depressing about the MCU portrayal of Steve Rogers (no offense to Chris Evan’s acting choices as the character)…the character was created by jewish creators as a response to anti-semitism. He’s intentionally visually the “poster boy of Whiteness” then is motivated to defend the marginalized.
“Oh so you want AMERICA Propeganda? HOLD MY BEER.”
Which, the first Cap movie *kinda* got. But by the second act or so + all the films featuring Steve moving forward…that all got conveniently forgotten in favor of the “easier” Military/Spies&Conspiracy storylines.
(At least the people who made “The Falcon and the Winter Soldier” remembered Captain America’s actual themes (and that Sam Wilson did, actually, succeed Steve in the source material), as well as brilliantly contrasted Steve’s Cap against John Walker’s “Cap” while ALSO acknowledging that MCU!Steve Rogers *just doesn’t get it and Can’t get it* which Bucky acknowledges *to Sam.* )
…unfortunately Disney is Disney. There’s still A LOT of anti-blackness going on in addition to the other issues.
Anyway…yeah.
We can like media, acknowledge what it’s trying to do (OR what it’s not. Or is claiming to do but…just. Isn’t. [squints at yet another “first gay character!” while Owl House gets its final season cut short and nearly canceled after the second season, ALL the queer subtext removed from Ducktails once it got put on Disney+, etc) and still criticize it
Soo true...I'm a marvel too and I'm blaq..I'm willing to take a step back and admit there's some racism in Marvel considering there's a strong blaq female main character in a comic that could've been a massive hit but was ignored..and there was also a character in the comics that was a blaq female but they changed it to a yt person (sorry forgot the characters/comic names)..problematic but marvel overall is awesome though and their movies are kinda revolutionary with their cgi and Cinematography
"Y'all need to chill" - Gives most hysterical, tinfoil hat take ever lmao
@@publiusventidiusbassus1232 …hysterical? ok lol
I'm a Tim burton fan but I haven't met any other Tim burton fan who acts like this but I guess.
Can't stand when people think POCs existing is "pandering"
It's wild how literally most of the inhabitants of the planet are POC yet we're still at grips with yt supremacy like we need permission to be represented 👁️👄👁️
@@sarroumarbeu6810 fr i never really thought of it like that but you're actually correct.
putting them in a movie to "appease the masses" is definitely pandering.
@Jeremiah Noar No one is begging anyone to put POC I'm media. They are commenting and making objective observations on the lack of their presence within the space. When a producer of any medium of media decides to cast a POC, it is not to "appease the masses"; representation and even simply existing on the big screen is important after incidences like white America being upset over Rue from hunger games being black or Little Mermaid being black for a musical (when things like this have already been done countless times before for remakes i.e, Cinderella and the Wiz, but because the aforementioned examples weren't explicitly targeted towards black audiences there was a problem). You claim it's forced diversity, you swear up and down "it's not bias"/"I'm not racist", when you say uneducated ignorant things online, like how POCs existing in your favorite movie is merely being done to appease the masses. So when is it ever okay to put them in? In explicitly POC targeted/advertised media? Never? Do they just not exist? And if they do, why do you act as if their existence is solely political and can only be, in order to "appease them". "Just put em in the damn movie, that'll quiet them." @ Me if you want to continue this conversation because I'm done, and you sound like a joke.
@@sequoialawson5302 not begging to put POCs in media? That's what your comment was about. That there aren't enough POCs in some spaces therefor, you believe more need to be put in to correct that. you're also pulling on things from my comment that weren't even there. I never said that black POCs existing in a movie is always to appease the masses. I didn't even say that's what's happening most of the time. But I can acknowledge (as you should to) that there ARE movies where they intentionally changes the color/gender of a character in the name of inclusivity or representation. Don't believe me? Look at Ghost busters 2016 (which bombed pretty bad). Or the new all female "Ocean's Eight. You brought up an example yourself. The Little Mermaid remake. How does casting a black actor as Arial add to the story? it doesn't. So if it's not done for the sake of story, then why do it? And actually, that's a pretty good litmus test. If a character from a familiar property has their race or gender changed in a newer version and the ONLY reasoning behind it is "it's for representation" then it doesn't add anything to the story as a whole. Yes POCs exist. And yes, the casting of some fictional work aren't representative. So what? It's a story. Stories aren't meant to mirror reality, they're meant to reflect truths from reality.
So when is it ok to have a POC in a story? Whenever the story calls for one. simple answer. When it makes the story better. and putting them in just because the movie doesn't have enough of us doesn't necessarily make the story better.
Lemme make it clear that Lolita the book and movie have nothing to do with lolita fashion. The aesthetic associated with Lolita the movie is called nymphet fashion. Lolita fashion is derived from French rococo era fashion silhouette and is combined with kawaii/goth/classic etc. aesthetics to achieve different substyles.
i just looked up nymphet fashion and couldnt find a picture of it
@@amandacaballero3624 The term Coquette is more common for fashion associated with the Lolita movie, so that might help if you're searching for more info on what it looks like. Think it's a very "young flirty femme Americana" type of fashion
THIS🙌💯i'd know because I wear Japanese lolita fashion
as a lolita fashion lover thank u for saying that
Then why is it called lolita fashion??? Just asking because I thought it had something to do with the book or movie Lolita
It's sad how Hispanic women are made fun of for having long arm hair, one of my best friends is Hispanic and even as kids I've always loved her longer arm hair (I was legit jealous, I accept my own body now 🤣) I thought and still think it's cute AF 🥺💜
Yeah, it's really sad. I have a lot of body hair, i remember one time at my job, my boss looked at my arms and said "si así está el camino cómo estará el pueblito" lmao i only laughed but internally i felt reaaaally bad
yeah i’m italian and i’m a monkey compared to americans
Okay but a character with 4c hair would look so dope, he’s missing out
True tho- ( by someone who has 4c hair )
he is very creative so imagine the possibilites with the hair skin and culture of black people being included, I never cared about the fact that he didn't have diversity on his movies but it would be nice to see some characters like that.
I've watch the adventures of the Baudelaires kids on Netflix. There's some blacks people and they're really fitting this "burtonesque" aesthetic.
yeeess
Yeah man, I do wake up fully looking like I came out of a horror movie, hire me! You could save so much on hair and makeup 🤣
That's true. My friend dressed up as Zoro from one piece and this random group of people came up to us and said "Zoro isnt black". I was like wtf. Just because our skin is different doesn't mean we cant cosplay our favorite characters. We just the black version of the character.
I get it,but if i would do Tiara for example people would hate on me cuz im not black..even if i don't do black face etc...
@@nemishka93 um first of all you. Can change your skin color to darker and at the end of the day you can take it off but for darker skin people they can’t take it off it’s there natural shade.
@@nemishka93 no… we wouldn’t. You just made that up. If you did do black face it would be bad but if you didn’t no one would care.
@@nemishka93 no one would hate on you for that what?? 😭😭
@@nemishka93 I’ve literally seen multiple Asian and white people Cosplay as Tiana. As long as there’s no blackface or cultural insensitivity no one cares. If anything I’ve seen people using them as an example of how to cosplay black characters without using blackface.
As a huge fan of Tim Burton, I really REALLY do want to see him hear these critiques and add some diversity! The people reaching and putting words in your mouth should calm the hecc down.
Why do you like a racist. He literally kicked a hole in a wall because the people who were working with him on tnbc didn't want to name oogie boogie that because it was literally a racist nickname towards black people. Not to mention he completely whitewashed a Jewish folktale.
@@sirin...... the jewish one its a storie that has come from many people not just them . There is even a mexican storie too
@@sirin...... I am a huge fan of his WORK. Like it was said in the video: separate the art from the artist. I should have specified that, sorry.
@@danalol4045 still a bunch of origins that he didn't pay homage or respect to
If you’re white, dark skinned, poc or asian you can cosplay whatever you want. And I love Tim Burtons films and his art. Anyone can be any aesthetic and please don’t mix Lolita and Japanese Lolita (I’m Japanese Lolita, a vintage and doll aesthetic.) LOVE YOURSELF ❤️❤️❤️❤️
Nah if you're white you'll get hate for it. Stop lying. The white hatred in this world is fucking crazy.
Tim Burton’s idea of seeing races as aesthetics has a weird feeling considering his first ever live action film specifically has an all Asian cast.
may i ask, which film?
@@sajay3709 Hansel and Gretel 1983
I'm not quite sure I understand this comment (not hating just genuinely curious) could you please elaborate on this?
@Dr.Sawbones yeah, that I understand. Now the "has a weird feeling considering his first ever live action film specifically has an all Asian cast" is the part I do not understand. What is the weird feeling? Does that mean that this is an example that we are judging him wrong? That the aesthetic of the film he made was perhaps not the best and maybe it was offensive? (to clarify i've never watched that film nor i dislike Burton. I am genuinely curious since i want to have an opinion considering all sides. Again, no hate)
@@_beex6 I'm also curious
I feel like some people are so attached to his works that criticizing any part of him or said works feels like an attack on their character.
Which is absolutely wild. Nothing is above criticism, even your faves. *_Especially_* your faves
TBH a huge "dang I'm an adult now" moment for me was when I started to reasses my favorite stuff (books, movies, series, etc) and actually was able to admit to their flaws and recognize I like the work despite those flaws (or even despite the artist), while still thinking about the reason for them to exist and how they could be fixed/lessened.
Woody Allen is an example
@@koalaeucalyptus I fully believe that you should follow your own morals and that if someone/something upsets you to the point where it truly does change the way you engage with the media (outside of the artist) then yeah. Let it go and move on.
That being said, I know if I swore off all of my favorite media related things because they were created by/starring/involved with someone problematic, I wouldn't be able to watch anything, lol.
Enjoying something really should go hand in hand with critically engaging with it.
I really dislike his point on forced inclusivity. What makes forced inclusivity feel forced is keeping stereotypes…
poc just exist in the world, you don’t need a specific reason in order to exist as a poc and it should be the same in movies. As long as you don’t make your character stereotypical it probably won’t feel forced, just like there’s a poc there and they exist, like in the actual world.
It’s also true for other marginalized groups like poor people (in a non-romanticized way), plus size people and many more
Edit: the default shouldn’t be “thin, white and able bodied unless there’s a specific reason to be anything else” is what I was trying to say
I think what he meant to say is that he doesn't want to have things like quota. He doesn't want to be like: "I need to at least cast a poc"
And more like if he finds someone during casting then why not?!
But as Salem mentioned he casts mostly the same actors so .........
I do agree with you that it really feels forced when the only dimension of some characters are that they are poc or part of the LGBT+ community.
However, I also think that it feels forced when there's a pb of realism (which doesn't apply to Burton) but for example I like TV series like GoT ppl from the north are pale white and the more you go south the more there are poc and it doesn't feel forced. Or in historical pieces, etc.
Imo, the pb is more about main characters' diversity than just the cast as a whole. Taking GoT again as an example there are not many important poc :/ and here lies the pb of representation I think. When the MC is Black or Asian or anything else, usually so is the rest of the cast. Looking at children cartoons I never saw one with a poc as an MC.
I hope I was clear enough to not cause an uproar 🤗
Omfg I completely agree with u. His point just insinuates that the world is segregated into different races. Like it’s normal everywhere in the world to have different people of different skin colour, by creating characters with the skin colour, it isn’t forcing inclusivity because u create the character. It’s literally just their skin colour, u don’t have to create a personality or character to fit the skin colour.
@@noxart2410 I can think of one or teo because I loved them i.e. Juniper Lee and the American Dragon ^^ am listing these in case anyone wants to check them out and not because I wanna argue. I really dont have enough insight on the topic being from a racially homogenous but nationally and religiously diverse end hence culturally tense Slavic country
I agree completely
@@noxart2410 I understand what you’re saying but Burton is creating his own universe, his plots don’t tend to take place in a specific location on the globe so he can pretty much do whatever he wants (and when it comes to story telling, he sure does)..
Also important to note is the fact almost all of his characters are thin, cishet , able-bodied and neurotypical, which doesn’t change based on location in the world, people from these groups are everywhere.
As an artist I truly appreciate his work and aesthetic, but, as Salem mentioned in the video- it doesn’t exclude him from criticism, and I do think criticism is due here.
As someone who was a 'Burton freak' from about 1988-1999 (yes I am old) one thing I noticed early on about him is he doesn't take criticism very well, and can be very defensive about his creative process. I suppose it's just a sensitivity to being so often rejected for who he was. He could've just said 'hey you're right I'll do something about it' but that would be the answer of someone who's open to suggestion. Aesthetic is no excuse for him though - tons of his movies don't have an overly Burtonesque look; Mars Attacks, Big Fish, Pee Wee's Big Adventure, Batman... they all have plenty of characters who could be represented by POC. Ironically all the movies goths booed for not being goth enough.
Salem is the most comforting RUclipsr ever. It’s her presence, so calm and beautiful
Also her voice is dreamy
Wether he is racist or not he is definitely not inclusive, as a goth person I've seen lots of gothic poc that look amazing, I love the tim burton aesthetic, I love his movies, I love the stories and even though I'm not a poc I would love to see stories that include them. I'm an artist who loves horror and creepy, spooky things and my dream is to do animation one day, hopefully I can create something that all sorts of people can relate to, but I hope even more that artists who are poc get to tell those stories themselves.
i agreed with every single word of this sentence.
I really want to help with this. This is why I wanted to study animation
How does a white man loving his own kind, and making art for his community and culture make him racist?
@@noonereally4798 read my comment again
@@noonereally4798 "loving his own kind" something sounds off with that statement...
The internalised racism is crazy. Most (if not all) problems can be traced back to colonialism and racism. People are so comfortable with how the society is that they refuse to see it any differently than the way they were socialized. And of course, when you're on top of the ladder, very few would actually like to understand the problem of those below them. Blindness to one's privilege is a serious problem. Please check your privilege people!
THIS!!!
Love this!!! It's truth!
don't forget classism too
THIS X INFINITY!
no mate america is insane and any opinion or thought that comes from it is so exaggerated and obnoxious its actually pathetic. no one cares. people have other things to care about than america
i love your perspective and how refreshing it is to a 65yr old to see the youth making thought provoking material like yours. Thank you
Burton grew up in historically segregated Burbank ca so I don’t expect a lot from him in the way of diversity. It was very homogeneous over there at the time. A lot of people grow up like this with no diversity in their lives. I don’t expect people like this to create work that reflects stuff outside of their limited experiences. I enjoy a few of Burton’s classic projects and leave it at that. Now Neil Gaiman is the other side of the coin. No not goth exactly but appeals to the community no doubt. He pulls from a ton of different cultures in his work but I also assume that’s due to him growing up in the UK in close proximity to several people of different cultures and ethnic backgrounds. I always see people who look like me in his works now that he has more creative control. I definitely appreciate that.
Neil Gaiman should be the next goth icon of literature, that man is an amazing writer
no fr we LOVE Neil Gaiman
Oh wow that makes more sense
@@maomi1852 I like this.
This comment is on point!
As a white guy I never realized that he didn't cast Black actors or write Black Characters. And that's the problem. Even if he wasn't intentionally not casting Black people, he was apart of the culture that normalized a lack of Black representation. He normalized all white casts and western aesthetic beauty. Its undeniable that Burton takes inspiration from other cultures view and ideas of the dead and how they deal with the dead. Yet those characters in his stories are still always white.
Thank you for being a white male and actually listening and considering what she had to say.. I was start to feel like hopeless while going threw these comments :/
@@christinar.9116 nothing to thank me for. Its unfortunate that there is such a resistance from white men to just listen.
IMO, I think that’s flawed logic. People make stories about people that look like them. I’m middle eastern, so of course I like to make mostly Middle Eastern characters. It’s not my responsibility to make Asian, White, Indian, etc. representation. You can’t make artists give your group representation, as an artist myself, I find it annoying when people tell me that I don’t draw enough of whatever race. If you want representation?? Don’t beg for it from other artists, make it yourself.
Also, if people can’t relate to a character at all because they are a different skin tone than you, then it’s on you for being shallow.
@@chervoviytuz but the point is America isn't just composed of white people. Considering Tim Burton is an American. Its a melting hot pot of multiple races and ethnicity. So to not have people with varying race or ethnicity is not only an inaccurate portrayal of America, but is also damaging to POC.
@@neilcalamba7746 If Tim burton doesnt want to draw them, he doesn’t have to. It isn’t racist to not draw someone.
If you want to create representation for every race, do that on your own :) nobody owes anyone representation.
I'm so glad ur highlighting the connection between gothic subcultures and being skinny; my love for alt fashion and the lack of body diversity within it is such a huge hurdle I face in recovery bc I constantly fear I will no longer 'fit the aesthetic' :')
As someone who has was a Tim burtons fan in the past, just because you like a piece of media doesn’t mean you have to defend the creator (especially when they’re being rightfully criticised) All the points in this video were amazing and Salem’s makeup is gorgeous :)
True! Another example is that I like songs from the band Mindless self indulgence but i dont support them (bc they said slurs they cant reclaim), and i only listen to their songs that are reuploads so i dont support em (^__^)!!
@@autisticcatnip that’s a great example, I do the exact same lol
Right? I enjoyed HP and enders game as a kid.
I have 0 positive things to say about their creators, but the books were pretty good reads.
Exactly! I have always loved Tim Burton’s work and I still do but his problem with diversity in his movies is something I can’t ignore and is an obvious problem. You can be a fan of someone’s work and even still be a fan of the person and still acknowledge the problems.
also alice in wonderland
Very well said! Art criticism is a very large part of the art community, and is important for creative growth. I personally find an entirely white cast in all his films feels forced and awkward. People shout out about forced diversity without realizing the "only whites" casting is forced and often times unrealistic.
Very true. There was also a point where every actress had platinum blonde hair (in general, not in his films) like you can't even have different hair colors. There was a movie with Jake Gyllenhaal AND Ryan Reynolds . . .That seems forced.
whole story is unrealistic tho, in all his movies.
It really depends on the movie, but even if you made a historically accurate movie about the Rus in 800, even in THAT society they may have had non-white people, because globalization is not new just much more prevalent. Maybe if the movie was made about early colonization of Iceland it would make sense to restrict it to white only actors... If making a movie about China before first contact between the Roman Empire and China you'd have 0 white actors.
@@joannawinters6592 yeah, you could argue that because his movies take place in fantasy land, an all white cast is perfectly reasonable. But then we have Tim burton (and others) purposely dreaming up and creating this fantasy land where... everyone is white! They just sit down in their creative brain storming sessions and think to themselves "but what if this make up world was only white people". Sounds a bit...
As someone who loves the Tim Burton aesthetic and was raised on Nightmare Before Christmas and Frankenweenie I still feel yucky about his view on diversity and what he’s said about POC being in his films. POC would be just as effective in his aesthetic as white people are. I love his art and aesthetic but not him as a person.
Never let the creator's personal views and opinions taint respect and admiration for their art. They must be separated as different entities as many others have poured their creativity and work into making these pieces of Tim Burton's art and to invalidate their work would be criminal. I completely agree with your opinion.
@@Nathan-jc7wy - No, not never. Sometimes art is a subconscious expression of the artist's values and if you don't want to absorb that or help propagate it to others, it's valid to evaluate and discard.
@@Nathan-jc7wy tim burton literally threw a fit when one of his writers explained how racist ‘oogie boogie’ is. His work is the problem.
can we talk about how salem can pull off anything she wears? i love how she bases her outfits off of the video's topic too. also this was the perfect video for halloween, and i loved it. (i dont know her pronouns my bad if i got them wrong)
As an artist and director with a lot of sway he can stay true to his original visions, however at the end of the day the film industry is a business. The choices he is making aren't good for business. His last few movies have underperformed. If he wants to continue to work he needs to make his films more accessible to a diverse audience or he will become antiquated and unemployed.
Well said
He will definitely hire a more diverse cast in the future
Saying some races or skin colors don't "go with your aesthetic" seriously sounds like he is too lazy to improve or experiment a little. He is a pro, so he is supposed to know how ridiculous this sounds from a character design point of view.
It's like saying Cats don't fit my style so I'm not going to acknowledge their existence or at least TRY to make a concept art of a cat, ever. Sounds like an excuse a very immature amateur artist would come up with.
Agreed! I've seen even 'kawaii/pastel' artists refuse to draw black people or darker skinned people in general bc it doesn't 'fit'. Like????!!!!! WHAT DO U MEAN???? REFERENCES ARE SO HELPFUL
No, it is literally just that - it does not fit his aesthetics so he does not want to. Yes, many things do really exist in this world, but that does not mean they will inspire us or that we should include every one of them just because, solely, they exist.
@@Zhenevjev Just say you & you're daddy Timothy are racist/colorist & move on, lol.
First of all, Tim Burton is Jewish; he's not European nor "white"
but, one could easily argue that the reason one of the first self-made American millionaires was a black woman who provided beauty products to fellow black women.
Would you prefer that all wealthy powerful corporations headed by European and Jewish people just make everything and cater to you "inclusively" and thus take the spots from smaller black business owners and artists?
You do realize that the whole
"integration movement" in America essentially nuked the African American economy and their small businesses as the novelty of white and Jewish owned buisnesses proved to be more enticing for African Americans.
They are a small demographic which makes up what, 14%? Even less in European Countries.
You are being tricked AGAIN by white and Jewish corporations into demanding something that will be extremely economically and socially destructive in the long run, but whatevs..
@@yeetnama9094 Being Jewish does not make you European even if there are Jewish people all over the world now lol? I really do not understand your point of view, i mean i do, but i beg to disagree because of many points there :
First of all even if I am European myself, European and Hollywood and commercial movies themselves really do not include anything related to my nationality or my country, In many ways i fail to "recognise" myself there and they really do not cater to me l, because you know, even in Europe there are many various nationalities and tribes within those countries and nationalities. Implying that being of white race is just being white (sentences like : shut up you are just plain white), is racist also in it's core belief because it implies that no one of "white race" has no cultural heritage and cultural/national diversity in it's core roots, which is i think we can agree bullshit that can say only those who are not aware of such complex themes. So to circle around, no even if i am white i am really not catered to or included in the commerical movies. I do not even fit Eurocentric beauty standards, hell i do not even fit general beauty standards lol. What bothers me more is perpetuating some gruesome stereotypes about my country, such as portraying us always as terrorists, or war criminals (you know how in American movies there are always either Russian or Serbian guy who are terrorists, lol), which is a really dangerous game since it enhances some wrong believes that are opening old - and current - political wounds and perpetuating some false propaganda about us when in reality only we know what really happened in our country and we are suffering to this day for it, but the world still see us as barbarians, criminals etc. I am writing this because i would like for people of all colors to understand that even "white" nations are struggling because of geo-political tides, and that being born white or being born in Europe really does not make you privileged if you are born in the country that is considered to be the underdog. Just like ethnic minorities in other countries, who are just living the ilusion of the democracy, same goes for us except that we are a "minority" in Europe. Secondly, i consider the whole commercial industry trash. Really. In every single point And i would say that the best solution is just to stop trying to fit in there and impose yourself there, just stop consuming it and turn to creating your own content, for the people who would love to see it. Because really, no one of us is going to win in battling huge corporations, not in this way that is because this is the way the whole society is made up right now. Only when the people bring down that system, some things in the other industries will change, for now it is just a useless fight. Why would everyone want to be in the Hollywood movies and commercial magazines and all of that i really do not get it? Do i come to Africa and cry that i do not fit their beauty standards lol.? Of course not. Why then the constant need of ethnic people to fit Europe's beauty standards, because culturally those are 2 different continents and of course that part of the world is going to have some other beauty standards based on their specific cultural imprint. That is not racism, that is just natural. It is not enough for you that you are deemed beautiful in your country but now demand that every single culture in this world finds you beautiful? I am sorry i do not get it, it just seems like a spoiled personality trait. Really, for many of us who are marginalized in this society there are far bigger problems than if you are seen as beautiful in XY countires.
This aged so well. You can critisize art while still loving tim burton. His wednesday series includes POC and its amazing! :)
i think one important thing that people forget about when discussing Burton that I find endlessly frustrating is that The Corpse Bride was actually based on a Jewish folk tale and yet the characters aren't Jewish and the story has no hints of Judaism (the characters are married in a church, a Christian wedding, etc.)
I’ve never heard of that before! Wow! I’m really interested in learning more! How did you find out about this?
WHAT!!!!! that's so........ someone else already said this, but i'm curious on how you learned about this (if you don't mind me asking!)?
@@thebestcheese4940 not at all! While I and my immediate family have not practiced for a couple of generations, I do have several Jewish family members and Jewish friends, and I have both heard the story from them and been told how the Corpse Bride is basically a christianized ripoff of the original story.
@@addietrademark432 damn.... i'll make sure to google it! watching the video i was rmbing about this movie and thinking fondly of it, but whew. this sure changes it all! thanks a lot for your answer :-)
LITERALLY THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BRINGING IT UP!
just food for thought: I am Mexican and honestly I would not want aTim Burton monetize dia de los muertos. Disney and James Bond already did it. If you dive deep, it has definitely changed the tradition dynamics both in Michoacan and Mexico city. (now making a big show for tourists) I understand your comment to make a point but I believe that will give a bigger problem with appropriation so counterpoint on that proposal! All in good faith Salem!
Fr my sister saw a dead of the day mask in public and said “omg this looks like coco” and I just looked and stared at her
Exactly‼️ unless he did the art and had a Mexican/hispanic writer.
This is what I was curious about! I feel like it would be difficult and almost more controversial for him to create a movie about something he obviously has zero respect for. I was curious as to how how artists in general could walk the line of inclusivity without stepping over into appropriation. I know where the lines are personally, but in a general sense it seems like a move like that for him would anger people more.
I'm sorry for that. It's a sad reality most people fail to acknowledge appropriately.
I'm curious how you'd feel regarding Megalo Box 2 : Nomad
It's an anime. About boxing but the it's pretty interesting. Please let me know if you're interested (or Not) in telling me what you think of its representation of Mexican/South American-Hispanic culture
I agree. It would have to be him only producing and letting people in the culture do it. I think he can do what he does which is tell eurocentric horror stories or stories set in colonised america and still make it diverse in casting.
Small nitpick: lolita didn’t start out as pastel and bright colors. Gothic Lolita was first then the sweet ones became popular later.
Otherwise I loved your video
Thanks for the correction, as an EGL enthusiast
I'd say Gothic and what we define as "Classic" today, based on the Kera, Fruits and EGL street snaps form the 90s
Why is there a subculture from a pedophile book anyway? 😆 who cares?
@@loveoflife3081 the subculture isn’t related to the book, they just have the same name
@@loveoflife3081 as karlymarx said, the book is unrelated. In the video they said made it a point that lolita is hyper femme originally sweet and later on gothic which wasn’t true. It’s not that big of a deal and doesn’t negate the overarching theme of the video thus why I said “small nitpick”
as a poc, I feel like poc’s aren’t necessarily excluded from trying different aesthetics but I feel like more pocs pressure on me to explain myself when I like “white people” things. I haven’t had the experience of a white person telling me i can’t participate in a certain aesthetic but more of my poc friends will call me “not black”
Yes hard agree, or saying you are expressing or a bad example, when they are the ones being a bad example limiting poc but letting white people not have such expectations of limitations.
Her being into alt fashion, anime & K-pop surely she just have received the same judgement?
idk i've definitely experienced both, especially when you get to more online spaces and ask for advice, even if you just mention being poc in passing. that might just be because i mostly into goth aesthetic but i have had a lot of people, both poc and non-poc, tell me that i can't wear the clothes i enjoy wearing :/
You've been pretty lucky.
I got flack from both sides, and coming from White people it definitely hit different.
I literally got stared at at the motorcycle dealership 😂
SAME
It feels so gross to me that Tim Burton is clearly aware of his lack of diverse casting and favouritism toward white actors, and rather than trying to do better or acknowledging the issues, he just uses his aesthetic as an excuse, as if people of colour or people who aren't skinny can't be goth too. I know when I saw Miss Peregrine's Home for Peculiar Children I noticed that the only person of colour was the villain, and that bothered me, but I didn't really think about Tim Burton's involvement and how this is a pattern of his, at the time.
To be honest, I don't really think directors like Tim Burton tackling stories to do with other cultures or themes of race is a good idea because they'd 100% mess it up, but I think just simply acknowledging that people that aren't white and skinny exist by allowing them to be in his films is really the least he could do.
Alternatively, if he felt he wanted to make films about other cultures and stuff it'd be cool if he got writers/directors from those cultures to create the films alongside him. Rick Riordan did a similar things with a series of books where he got other authors of different backgrounds to write about their mythologies/traditions in a similar way to how he wrote the Percy Jackson books, because he knew he wouldn't be the best person to tell those stories but he wanted to help those stories be seen.
I’m a millennial goth who grew up never questioning the “genius” of Tim Burton films, but I really appreciate this take. I didn’t really think about it growing up but I think this is an important call out. So many of your video topics have me looking at things I take for granted in new, fresh ways. I appreciate you and what you do
Damn. I’m so grateful for this video. Not fitting the “aesthetic” was something that has always deeply affected me. Especially in my teens. I felt like I couldn’t wear anything because I was too brown and too chubby and my hair is curly. Especially when I grew up around white passing people.
Hearing that this is something that affects lots of people is really helpful and I don’t feel so alone in it. And it really helps me realize that it’s not my skin or my shape or my hair that’s the issue. It’s the lack of inclusion.
“Poc can’t cosplay as their favourite character thing” reminded me of when I would play pretend in 1st grade, I wanted to be a vampire and everyone called me a vampire (for pretend) but I realized “Oh, I can’t be a vampire. I’m not pale.” :(
It’s funny because before knowing Tim Burton refused to include poc in his movies I always assumed Emily from Corpse Bride was a woc
Me too!
same
What does "woc" mean? /srs
@@silverdandylmao woman of color
She's a ghost also the movies set on the Victorian era ofc she's white
As an artist myself I feel some responsibility to consciously be a part of the inclusivity trend, including more diverse body types, ages, and skin tones in my work. But on the whole, variety is just more fun! Why limit yourself to the same standard over and over? Branch out! Draw something new! 🖤
Excellent video as always🦆
20:21 I literally stopped wearing kawaii clothes and sold all my stuff bc I got so tired of people telling me that, as a black girl, I can't be kawaii. It literally made me feel like I was appropriating when I put on the clothes so I just stopped.
I’m sorry that people that were supposed to be in your community made you feel so bad.
That's super messed up! I love kawaii black girls, we need more of us! Like chocolate and strawberries no one can do it better! I'm sorry you had to deal with those folks..if you ever pick up kawaii fashion again you will have this..random commentors' support 😂💖👸🏾
Its because theyre so used to the black girl stereotype so they weren't used to seeing a black girl liking other styles
@@Raebrained fr. Like who does love a chocolate covered Strawberry. That's basically what black Kawaii girls are and you can't tell me otherwise.
??? Why can’t you?? I’m sorry you had to deal with that.
As a long time Tim burton fan, I was very disappointed when I got word recently that he was publicly excluding poc in his casting bc we didn’t fit his aesthetic. His aesthetic is everything to me, he’s what got me into the magic of spookiness and goth styles all together, but I’m also saying this as a dark-skinned arab. So people saying that Tim burton was very clear about the fact (at the time) that he consciously excluded people who looked like me was beyond heartbreaking ;-;
In more lightening news, Tim Burton recently showed his hand in creating the show adaptation of the Addams Family on Netflix called “Wednesday” and she is canonically Latina and has perfectly balanced the aesthetic of the Addams Family AND Tim Burton. Is the show just an adaptation? Yes. Is it good? I haven’t watched it myself other than the trailers (my older sister watched it and thought it was amazing but looking at Twitter they had a LOT to complain about. Then again it’s Twitter so- LOL). Does this leave me hopeful for what Tim may start to consider more in his later works? Yes it does :3
I feel like in this situation we need to distance ourselves from asking old white creatives to change and care about representation. Instead we need to start actually supporting POC creatives, writers and directors. I came to realise specially in YA books that most writers are white women and Poc simply do not exist in their universes and if they do it's not very frequently and their lack of exposure makes them ill-equipped to portray Poc in a respectful manner. We as people have power, regular people made ppl like Bella poarch famous simply for doing the bare minimum. If we want to see an industry that represents us well (not just cheap caricatures), we need to start supporting Poc creators enough to make companies view them as profitable.
This makes sense. I’ve always wanted to write amazing stories with a lot of diversity, I’m just always afraid I’ll portray it in a disrespectful or inaccurate light. I don’t have a lot of exposure, and I’m not quite sure how to get more exposure either, so…?
It’s also to just appreciate proper art, what I mean by this is sometimes even PoC content isn’t well done and just a remake of white content except it’s ✨PoC✨ which is again the bear minimum. I am saying this as a PoC who has been taking in PoC content for a while now but is kinda frustrated at the lack of creativity and originality
I just want to add, that using Bella Poarch (a PoC woman) as your example isn't the best option, but you are 100% valid that her platform grew by her doing bare minimum. However, because of her now big platform, she is using it to her best ability to create (in my opinion) fantastic music that speak about her personal experiences (ie: her song Inferno is based about her SA experience). Maybe you should've used predominantly white groups like Team Ten, Tana Mongue, & etc who did way worse as an example. Idek how those groups even have platform, but they still do.
Bella poarch is filipino though…
@@adelie-912 I don’t think they said she wasn’t a poc, it was a bad example
I’m willing to bet 99% of the dislikes are people that don’t want to watch the whole video because they don’t agree with it.
I love the aesthetics of the time burton style, I’m a goth myself, but seriously how can you say death doesn’t fit everyone
for realll also same
Yeah. Deathly aesthetic is just a washed out version of your base skin tone, it doesn’t have to be light, only less saturated.
Well, different culture sees death differently; I wouldn’t even bother to fit into that. His work is too hopeless 😭 we see death in a different light spiritual, while his is visual present looks like they’re aging as the movie is rolling
Same
I’ve noticed in recent years an increase in diversity, seeing new faces and characters that’s really exciting. You can see the change start from his 2019 film ‘Dumbo’ (with multiple poc) to Burton’s new upcoming Netflix series ‘Wednesday’ starring Wednesday Adams as Jenna Ortega (of Mexican and Puerto Rican background). Maybe he’s had a change of perspective since Peregrine in 2016.
I feel like she def should have included and talked about this in her video to actually talk about what she wants to talk about but didn't so im glad u commented this bc I didn't know he was doing that, glad he is including more poc as it shouldn't be THAT hard if ur as popular as he is bc Ima go out on a limb here and say poc have always been in his audition rooms so im glad poc are getting the opportunities they desire and deserve in his movies
Came here to say this!
or maybe he just figured she suited the role?
@@rebbyy95 Which would indicate a change of perspective given that his previous perspective was always "this character is white"
BUMP THIS COMMENT UPPP
I remember one time I dressed up as a character from one of his films called Vincent as the kid. And was instantly told how his aesthetic wasn’t fit for me as I was black and even made. So hearing my favorite stop motion animator say how my skin wouldn’t fit his aesthetic was kinda hurtful.
I’m a black cosplayer and no matter what character I cosplay I will get the “that character isn’t black” line. It’s hard to do anything you love knowing you’ll be immediately judged for something you can’t control.
I’m so sorry this happens to you. I’m white and not into cosplay but I do know how much joy it brings people. I wish I was into it because it looks so fun. But please keep going, keep finding that joy. I think I’d tell those people imagination is the heart of cosplay (I think anyway) so they should use theirs. ❤
Sigh people is just so judgemental, it is a cosplay, it won't change the original character, just like how gender bending characters is fun, it is a "what if" a different take, just let it be people
Your friends are a little uptight. Last year my niece went as the joker and she's a girl but she looked really cute. Isn't it supposed to be about the outfit and makeup you use.
@@carmelmulroy6459 yes! it’s all ab ur artistic expression of the character
Please continue cosplaying whoever you want! I'm Japanese and it drives me nuts when people (racists) are suddenly into racial accuracies of cosplaying characters, but have no qualms about white people cosplaying Japanese characters (or just characters of color in general). These are just flimsy excuses to veil their anti-blackness. Just ignore them and keep doing what you love!
That hair comment really hit me, I’m Arab, with a TON of hair, it was my very first insecurity, it started very young (maybe the age of 4-6), I was surrounded by the idea of being hairless as more beautiful, and having hair as “dirty” and “unfeminine”. It’s awful. I believe that hair removal shouldn’t be pressured onto every women, I think we should be brought up to be confident in it, then later make the choice PERSONALLY on whether or not we would rather keep it or not. However, I’m still so incredibly embarrassed of my hair, I love long sleeves, I love to cover my hands with them. I’m 14 now.
I really hope this way of thinking changes for you in the future, I'm Greek and we also tend to be hairy (both guys and girls) and I have a few friends who were born with lots of hair on their bodies, arms, face etc, but I'm telling you they look AMAZING!!! I personally wouldn't have noticed that if they haven't mentioned it themselves cause it really doesn't make you any less beautiful!!! I hope you can love yourself the way it is, cause based off of the ppl I know who are naturally very hairy, you're probably veeeeery pretty yourself!!! :))
That's dreadful. You are so beautiful and there is nothing at all wrong with your body, including your hair.
As you grow you'll become more confident. I won't say it's easy and you'll immediately grow out of it bc that's just not the case. The media pushes a standard of beauty that doesn't fit us. You're still very young, so seeing this is difficult for you. I understand. I had the SAME issue when I was a tween/teen. As a 21 year old college student I don't really mind it as much as I did when I was little. Sometimes I'm a bit insecure about my body hair but it's definitely not as bad. It'll get better with time.
@@pianomelo1046 tysm for ur reply, I’m not sure if I’ll ever be completely be confident just because it’s such an intense insecurity that started out so young but I sure hope so. Even little things like pulling my mask up all the time because my moustache is so visible if I don’t wax it that week I hope to grow out of. But for now, thanks for ur encouraging words :).
@@adiposeNarnian thank you :)
He can say he doesn't want forced diversity to justify not having more people of colour but tbh his quirkiness a bit forced to me these days. my dominant impression of Alice in Wonderland was "look how wacky my film is" which I know, Alice in Wonderland :P but I've seen other Alice films that were utterly bizarre but felt less like it was trying so hard to be, if you get me. The strangeness was baked in to the project, it wasn't just a sticky marinade. I dunno I just think he peaked a long time ago, I don't feel the same spark in more recent stuff that I did on earlier films
Burton _did_ spit on Lewis Carrol's grave with that rendition of Alice. Even animated Disney version kept better the spirit of the book (and I'm pushing the envelope with that statement).
Yes so many truly bizarre n beautiful Alice in wonderlands
this comment I can agree with
Absolutely.
I’m also bored to death of seeing his ex wife & Johnny depp in EVERY. SINGLE. FILM.
The thing about "poc can't cosplay as their favorite characters" reminds me of when I was in 4th grade and I got paired in group full of girls with lighter skin than me for a roleplay/ skit thing about how people with money should treat homeless people. My friends legit told me that I should play the homeless person cause I looked like I could be homeless.
I'm gonna be honest, I didn't really understand why everyone was so pressed at first. Now that I've been educated on the history of his films and the gothic subculture, I feel a lot differently. You're so right about the fact that he HAS to know about these issues in the goth community because he's surrounded himself around it for so long. Thanks for the eye opener
This is exactly why I love Salem bc she doesn’t just sit there and try to cancel people or trends, instead she explains what they did wrong an give us and them a New perspective to look at. Thank you for everything that you do Salem🤍😊🙌
I love Tim Burton's works. And I also critique him on his lack of diversity while respecting the work that he creates. I love Tim Burton films and watch them every Halloween; I also acknowledge that he really needs to include more diversity in his films because they're really lacking in that department.
Samee, I've always wanted to dress up as the corpse bride but I'm always too chubby haha
Why should he do that tho? the lack of diversity doesn't seem a problem to me, everybody has their own battles based on their own experience, maybe for Tim Burton the rappresentation of poc people isn't a priority in his creative work and I think it's perfectly fine, there are many other artists that chose to direct their work towards the achievement of a more inclusive society, but nobody should feel imposed to add something to their creative work in order to satisfy people's believes.
Art is strongly influenced by one's own experience in life, it's a way of expressing one's unique pov, we cannot push our believes into the artists that we like, we cannot push Tim Burton to add more diversity in his work, he probably never thought much about minorities and focus his life on different things, that's perfectly normal, because I repeat, everybody has their own battles and problems.
I hope my thought is clear, it can be a little bit difficult for me to express what I'm thinking by text and in english.
@Zenarx maybe he could express himself better, but I don't see nothing wrong wtih that either, we cannot impose our own believes in other people's creative work, if for you diversity is important, then follow and support the artists who are using their work to achieve a more diverse society, but I don't see the point in trying to change Tim Burton's aestethic and artistic work, because it's HIS work, the result of HIS own experience, probaly very different from the poc's experiences.
@@pedroloto the thing is, that his movies are famous, and he's someone recognized, if he's just closing himself in a bubble where black people don't exist then that's bad aswell i mean, i get what you mean, but he's someone inspirational and so his films, his job his more big than what he is
@@pedroloto i really understand what you say, and i agree at some part, but people are getting hurted by his lack of representation like, we aren't asking for more than a few black characters
Artist here! I would like to point out that diversity is actually super important to character design, outside of ethical and political conversations (although those are very important too). Otherwise you get what is very popularly known as "same face syndrome". Your work begins to look less interesting and unique over time because you've found yourself in a rut of drawing the same face and body types over and over again, making your overall portfolio rather dull. Good artists can work with a huge variety of character designs and shapes in their work WHILE keeping their style intact, it's one of the basics.
Different silhouettes and contrasting color schemes (aka your main characters having different skintones, hair textures, body types, and details) for your characters makes each one stand out and look much more memorable. Imagine if every character Walt Disney ever drew looked exactly like Mickey Mouse but with different ears. That wouldn't be a stylistic choice. That would just be lazy.
What I'm getting at isn't that Tim Burton is a bad artist, but that creating diverse characters is not and should not ever be "out of someone's style". That's a cop-out response. This is one of the first things you learn when studying design, which I'm more than sure he has.
Such an interesting comment thank you!!
never thought of it like this but i agree and appreciate this heavily
As a fellow artist, I was going to comment about the "same face syndrome" too but I found your comment and since it's very well explained, I'll leave a like instead to help it rank higher.
@@Shesvii thank you!
@@sophisticatedPJs no problem!
I love this take bc it's so true. People can argue these things all day long but you'll find that the dismissive ones have never had to feel like anything other than the default. I've loved Tim Burton since I was a kid and I was a punk/scene kid. You'd be shocked (or maybe not) how much bullying and stuff came strictly from me not being "pale enough" bc "Black people aren't ____". This is typically by the same kids that would racistly call me Aunt Jemima.
honestly i have big respect for you as a creator. you take things that are SO controversial and argue it to a big audience, while expecting hate, backlash, etc. definitely one of my favorite RUclipsrs because you say what must be said, TRUTH MATTERS! and discussion between these topics is always good. tysm salem 💕
I dont get how being black just "dont fit his aesthetic", for example, a black corpse bride character would probably have also blue skin, but dark blue and it would look fire. And the color palette would still work, especially bc emilys hair was dark blue too
And goth looks sooo fire on poc
The thing with Corpse bride is that her face and her colouring already looks like she could even be black but how is that supposed to be showed in the story? She supposed to say she is black?
put laura harrier in make up there and she could be corpse bride as we know her, no doubt.
I was thinking the same thing!! Iv'e heard people argue that "It wouldn't make sense for Emily to be anything but white because it takes place in Victorian England!!! She came from a wealthy family, and black people were slaves and servants back then!!" But that's such bullshit. Tim burtons movies aren't about depicting reality. They're about suspending disbelief and entering a reality similar to our own, but where fantastical events can take place. So if we can imagine a world where we can accidentally marry the dead, or a girl can crawl through a little door in her house and enter an alternate dimension; why is it suddenly "too unrealistic" if in THIS Victorian England black people weren't slaves or servants. Why is a world where white power structures don't exist more incomprehensible than resurrection, ghosts, zombies, and talking animals? They don't want historical accuracy, they want a white narrative that they can relate to.
Because racist people will use anything as an excuse to hide their racism. The people who make these arguments dislike Black people and the idea of their favorite characters being Black is horrible to them. I've seen backlash against so many Black folks of any shade. Racists will use any reason that sounds even remotely excusable and not offensive to justify themselves. Aesthetic - I'm not racist it doesn't match the vibe, even though BIPOC/POC have worn certain or designed certain aesthetics for years. Not realistic: Would gladly ignore and suspend disbelief of other fantastical portions of films/tv/videogames in the supernatural genre but not when it comes to race, and also ignores wealthy Black folks from other countries. Historical accuracy: fashion is never historically accurate in films, people often mix different elements of cultures in supernatural genres, there are literally dead corpses walking around how is that real in any sense.
being goth is an inner thing. Its a tune, a key, a vibe. I dont give a fork if other people validate my epic gothness!
Watching this in 2022 and Wednesday by tim burton is on netflix with literally the whole family being portrayed as Latinos. I think he did listen to you guys...
it isn't ''forced diversity'' people just exist
Exactly. People see white as default and anything else as ‘different’
And what If they lived in a place that was not multicultural/racial in the movies? What If the story just didn't involve anyone of different races and creator did not imagine them? Do you know those non multiracial places just exist too in real life?
Forcing diversity is exactly what you are doing. Just place a Poc in just to have one instead of Poc having their own stories and being naturally added in, that is what you are encouraging.
@@aleera8257 why does it matter.... if i as a black person move to japan, where nearly everyone is japanese, does my story need a reason tied to my race? why can't i just randomly be there? it shouldnt even matter. Throw a black person into a 1910s movie set in france, there doesnt need to be some explanation. POC can just exist places, both irl and in media...
@@blushpinkbunny you're terribly wrong, I can have weeks on end that I will not see anyone outside of my race and culture. So no you don't randomly always exist as a poc even in real life therefore you don't have to always exist in any story or movie either.
@@Imxel21 'White' is sort of a fallacy for the Victorian era. Many non-Europwans would conscider Dracula as 'white', whereas the most important thing that set him apart was that he was a foreigner. Europe is really a lot more variates than just 'white'. If he hadn't of been rich and aristocratic he would have been ostracised much more than he already was. He would have to be atleast Nordic to be accepted by English aristocracy. And then he'd still be a foreigner.
The story would have been the same if Dracula was Asian, African, etc. As long as he was rich, aristocratic (in his own right), and an anglophile still. He would never have been accepted into English society though.
So if you wanted to make a story accurate to England, you couldn't make anything with poc English aristocracy, or nobility just outsiders and lower class. Not that there were many ppc in England until the 20th century (so few as to be of note). But you could very easily make that story accurately in France for instance.
Tim Burton's aesthetic is almost always positioned on landed characters (old money). He could easily just make stuff up and insert poc where there weren't any (middle and upper classes), or focus on poorer class characters, or more modern settings (outside of the cities is still very ethnically homogenous), or outside of England. But he's not interested in that.
"This isn't a situation where people of colour are criticising Tim Burton by not understanding his artwork, if anything it's peple of colour begging him to be part of his unverse, because the truth is that there are a couple of people who are being excluded, who feel left out, who feel like outsiders, like they have nowhere to belong. And I just find it incredibly ironic when the whole point of his artwork and narrative is about dismantling the feelings associated with being an outcast." As a die hard Tim Burton fan this is honestly so true and amazingly worded!
I feel like this whole "doesn't fit the aesthetic " it's kinda saying that he doesn't view poc as having classic beauty in a more poetic way. He can cast who he wants but it is kinda bad that he doesn't see other facets of beauty on poc rather than just the standards
honestly that type of thought disgusts me. its basically saying non white people cant exist in a beautiful quirky world - like how is that supposed to make poc kids feel who love these films but dont see themselves in it ? like sorry hun but you dont fit the ✨aesthetic✨
@@followingheartlines oh it killed me as a kid being on goth tumblr and not having representation. Not saying black goths aren't there, but I was so brainwashed by white majority media that I didn't seek them out at first. Once I started following BIPOC people I felt so much better about myself. Representation matters 😭
THIS! 👏 👏 👏 👏
@@mightymeatymech I mean, just playing devils advocate here, I’m a poc myself, but i think the fact that his aesthetic is deathly looking people, and everyone knows you get PALER when you die, the take makes sense? It’s just badly worded
@@BunnyGxre Like she said in the video he can easily portray poc in other ways like monolids, bigger bodies, curly hair, and other features. He clearly just doesn't think we as poc are good enough.
i agree with all the points you made in this video, also especially loved the part where you talk about POC having to constantly defend their femininity; as an indian woman, that really hit lol, as soon as you don't fit the beauty standard, you're criticized for being unfeminine, but even being feminine is demonized and seen as weak, so there's really no winning.
also, girl, you are literally distractingly beautiful. i could not stop looking at your eyes in this video, they're such a pretty shape and so expressive, and just. you as a whole are freaking gorgeous. thank you for making content that takes women of color into account and makes us feel represented and seen
As a child I always thought Emily from Corpse Bride was latina! I guess I was just projecting :(
@@AnimangaGirlChii true lol
She can be a British Latina!
Me too, actually
tbh same i was kinda sad when a friend told me she wasn't :/
She's not? Dang
Yeah like you can still give off a death look on poc like you can add some white contacts and some dead things like bones. Also I love your necklace and makeup in this video it looks amazing and very spooky.
literally, Tim Burton is so imaginative, I bet he could make it look sooo cool! and tysm
@@_salemtovar_ especially whith his animated films as you can more exaggerated the spooky features in animation.
@@_salemtovar_ I now want to draw what a poc Tim Burton character would look like
@@trixxartarchive7705
That would be so cool!
@@trixxartarchive7705 i tried that a few months ago when i got into his work and noticed the lack of poc. The character turned out so cool even thought im extremely amateur at design...i was confused as to why there was such a lack of diversity when it could look amazing, especially since he is supposed to be so creative
It's interesting that toward the end you say Day of the Dead would be a good concept for Burton to work with. In interviews leading up to the release of Corpse Bride, he actually cited Day of the Dead imagery as an influence on his depiction of the land of the dead. As also a (half) Latina, it made me excited at the time (I was like 14), but I've since become low key resentful that he played with Latin imagery while excluding Latinos from his work.
Oh God, no, as a 100% latina I can guarantee you we don't need another gringo gaze movie about Día de los muertos🙂
@@AlySoley chica said the GRINGO GAZE 😭😭💀💀💀💀💀👏🏼
Damn, didn't know Burton explicitly didn't want latinos working on his films.
Got any articles on that?
I was made fun of for my arm hairs so much in high school that before we went on a beach trip i made my mom help me wax my whole body and got a really bad rash because of it. I was never self conscious about my arm hairs before that. Now i still think about it
I feel your pain. i started waxing and threading my mustache at a young age because children at school would make fun of me. every now and then people still mention that i have body hair. like bruh. thanks for reminding me, i totally forgot
girrrrl your videos are always so intellectual & well thought-out & insightful & you're literally so f*cking smart. you're encouraging important conversations that need to be had and i'm so happy you're continuing to do so despite people's stupid comments. it's brave and takes major courage! tbh getting hate comments means you're talking about REAL SH!T and it's reaching A LOT of people, which is positive! keep going boo boo xxx
this video was toxic af
@@user-wh1st3hq9u a
@@user-wh1st3hq9u sweetie 🤦
@@user-wh1st3hq9u bruh 💀
Keara graves you are awesome, and I couldn't agree more with a comment.
As a half latina, I was always teased by boys that I'm hairy everywhere. I felt like a gorilla and always begged my dad to let me shave. When I finally got permission to use a razor, I shaved my arms first and then my back since those were the spots kids noticed first. Til this day, I still shave my arms. I still think my hairy arms would be put off by people now. I'm pale with dark long hairy arms. It's hard to embrace it
you are beautiful, I have hair on my arms and the kids that point that stuff out are the same ones who are the most insecure about themselves, pay those bozos no mind and love yourself the best way you can, stay safe
Latino is not a race, if by latino yall are meaning mestizos, amerindians are more hairless than white anglosaxons. Your mediterranean heritage on the european side of your latinamerican family is what gives you the hair. We descend from the greatest civilizations mankind has seen, the greeks, the romans. They were and are all very hairy people, the Mediterraneans. And also among the most beautiful people on earth!
not a race, but an ethnicity. They identify themselves as Latina/o so why does it rlly matter?
@@mrducky1635 it matters because latino is not a monolith. We come in all colors, like coffee. This means we look extremely different from the next person yet we all share a cultural background. “Half latino” makes it sound as if its something genetical, which it isnt
@ayse when did they say the were a poc? im latina and fully accept being white 💀