Ultima VIII | Rushed, Unfinished, Atmospheric
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- Опубликовано: 4 июл 2024
- Why Ultima VIII Pagan is a Flawed Masterpiece: • Why Ultima VIII Pagan ...
Streamed at / voidbrand
Part 1: • Ultima VIII: Pagan Str...
Part 2: • Ultima VIII: Pagan Str...
Part 3: • Ultima VIII: Pagan Str...
Part 4: • Ultima VIII: Pagan Str...
Plot Cuts in Ultima VIII (Ultima Codex): wiki.ultimacodex.com/wiki/Plo...
Bunch of SPOILERS in this one as before.
I ramble once again about the Ultima games. This time, Ultima VIII: Pagan. A very disappointing game to long-time Ultima fans, and a game that was hampered by a harsh deadline, which resulted in numerous bugs, plotholes, dropped story segments, and unfinished areas, as well as a finished expansion which never saw the light of day to the lower than expected sales of VIII, and the expansions to Ultima VII.
And despite that, it still remains one of my favorite Ultima games even to this day. The game has some high points to it, with its dark atmosphere being one of them, and an excellent soundtrack by Nenad Vugrinec. The new engine provides great graphics for the time, enabling the Avatar to walk, run, climb, and jump, with the jumping being absolutely broken on release, with a lot of Ultima fans jokingly calling Ultima VIII as the "Super Avatar Bros." This engine would later be used for the excellent Crusader No Remorse/No Regret games, both directed by one of the programmers for Pagan: Tony Zurovec.
00:00 - Intro
04:35 - The Atmosphere of Pagan SPOILERS past this stamp
11:33 - The Necromancers
17:23 - The Titan of Ether
21:39 - Sorcery
28:49 - Deposing the Titans + Controls/Jumping
#ultima #retrogaming 
Игры
I saved your video just in case.
I encourage others to save videos of reviewers they like, because you never know.
It's cool you're saving these. Wouldn't have been able to rewatch David's Ultima VIII video otherwise.
Good work, man! :)
This game has been a THORN in my memories for far too long Voidbrand...
The execution scene from the beginning hits hard, man. The game lets you know from the very start that the land you found yourself in is far from welcoming. I love this game, its atmosphere, world, people, hell, even the gameplay and especially exploration, made me forgive all of its flaws and shortcommings.
It was definitely a departure from previous instalments.
@@z.s.7992 Pagan deserve its own spinoffs. I think it should be another "World of Ultima" game instead of belong to the main series entry. "World of Ultima: Pagan" would fit better since the game itself is somewhat remind me of WoU: Savage Empire. Or Ultima Underworld 3: Pagan would be great too... if they translate Pagan to 3D
@@widerspacefanz4316 You make some good points. I would love to see them remake either underworlds or pagan. I played the hell out of pagan and I miss games that didnt hold your hand too much.
Man I’ll never forget my cousin giving me the box with the giant pentagram and the map and journals inside. I played this game like it was the realest shit that ever existed when I was a kid.
I loved this game as a kid, and even though it was unfinished, the atmosphere was unmatched. Very glad to see it get treated with respect here.
Pagan is important to me as 7 is. The music does a lot to enhance the alluring atmosphere in this game.
Very true. I still listen to the music sometimes😂. The sound effects are excellent too, I loved just hearing those footsteps@@Voidbrand
Right? As a kid the atmosphere totally got me. Until Diablo surpassed it. Before it was Dungeon Master 2
Pagan was my first RPG on a computer. After some decades, I think it has pretty much shaped my taste - I'm a sucker for dark fantasy. And the magic system may have beed clunky, but it is so full of variety.
Pagan kickstarted my love of dark fantasy themes too, and the sorcerer school of magic really made me feel like a proper sorcerer in this game. Just very slow and time-consuming, but dealing with Pyros is dangerous so it makes sense. By the time I get used to it the game is pretty much over.
@@Voidbrand I'll never forget the stress when skeletons attacked & then respawned within seconds. I was so relieved when I could finally cast the Destroy Undead spell.
@@FlowNeffets For this playthrough one of them reformed off a cliff and straight into the water. I regret not putting it in the video now. 💀
With all its faults, my experience as a kid with Ultima VIII was kind of magical you could say. A weird, obscure, punishing game filled with secrets. Kinda liked it to be honest
Honestly this game has its flaws, but you make this game sound so appealing. I'd be down to just listen to you talk about the virtues and how some of the way magic lore works. Otherwise great video again!
that patch was HUGE, legit. i actually remember when it came out and what a big deal it was for the game. for anyone who didn't give up on it and say pagan sucked immediately, it really did make a difference. the controls before and after were night and day.
great vid. i love Pagan too, and it's not like, inherently bad, just tragically unfinished. i love all the stuff that was actually there.
Garriott admits in more recent interviews that EA gave him the opton of continuing development on U8. Their marketing team showed him all the data on why it would be better to have the game on shelves for the 93 holiday season rather than continue development. He listened to the suits instead of his gut and OK'd the release.
One of the best games ever released. Atmospheres, music, visuals, lore, it's all here. Not the best Ultima game, but one of the best games in general.
U8 is definitely one of those games that make me go "It's an okay game, just not a great example of the series". (Because being a part of a great series also means great expectations.) Much like Mass Effect: Andromeda and Thief 2014.
U8 definitely had some great worldbuilding, art direction and mood setting. Great art and music too. Actually loved the magic stuff.
U7 I & II are my all time favorite games. I still play them today with Exult. I was very angry when Pagan went out because of the blowing chests, jumping problems and stupid things here and there. But the soundtrack helped me to hold on, it was so good that I couldn’t just give up. As a musician it has always been remarkably inspiring. And this video is remarkably inspiring.
Without a free flowing camera rotation like Syndicate Wars for example, the platforming jumping is pretty much unplayable in those certain area IMHO.
Ultima 8 Pagan is my favorite DOS game. I am very happy to see other people who like the game as much as I do.
Ultima 8 is the first Ultima game I ever played and I was just blown away as soon as I first played it. So I think I was able to evaluate it on its own without any expectations. I agree with everything you have stated in your video. U8 has an amazing atmosphere, visuals and soundtrack. I think this is one of the best looking DOS game ever made. I love the isometric pixel art and the fact that every item could be moved and some could be interacted is still impressive today. As a kid I wasn't able to finish the game but I played it for hours exploring this grim world and even settling in Tarna's house in eastern Tenebrae, decorating and using the place as a base for my expeditions to the wilderness. Years later I finally finished it but I think part of me didn't want to it to end so I was taking my time. I liked the idea that there were places I didn't yet see. Wish we got the Lost Vale expansion. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and ideas about the game.
By far my favorite game in the series along with U5. The platforming was frustrating at times but that was where the industry headed at that time.
The music tied everything together flawlessly and Pagan has the richest level of atmosphere in the series and still stands strong by todays standard.. The magic system was one of my favorite aspects along with the faster paced storyline. I always thought Origin Systems should have made expansions for Pagan, each with it's own city.. but they sadly had to go away..
While there are incomplete portions of the game, the game can be completed.. hmmmm..
U8 was my second Ultima game, if you count both parts of U7 as one. Both a game I loved immensely and a huge disappointment. To this day one of the darkest and most atmospheric games I've played, but tedious, broken, and unfinished. I loved hearing someone else who appreciated what it had to offer, I'll probably make a U8 video one day too.
I really enjoyed the atmosphere of this game too.
As soon as you said Super Avatar Brothers, I subbed. Please keep uploading.
One of my favorite games from Ultima series, despite the fact it wasn't completed and somewhat rushed to release.
if you fell in love with the *idea* of the game? That's actually excellent
the idea is actually really really good
It'd be if you fell in love with any idea of Ultima 1-7 and you see the potential
The issue is the _execution_ of the idea.
To a lot of us old school gamers? We grew up from games where characters were probably 2 pixels and you had to use a lot of imagination.
That's why aesthetics don't exactly make or break a game for us.
Still, I can only imagine how the developers felt.
Imagine a chef that is proud of serving top rate food for years
And then you join a company that forces you to deliver crap, tarnish your name, and betray the long time customers that got you a good name to begin with.
Now I'll add a proper comment as I was watching your video in the middle of the night. I remember being super hooked to this game as a child; I totally agree with what you said about the ambiance. There's something about the game world that really drew me in. I didn't get far in the game and I probably quit after falling to my death too many times, but the time I played was really fun!
The ambience did a lot to keep me playing. The last time I played this was about 6 years ago, and I thought my opinion on this game would change after hearing so many negative things about its gameplay and mechanics, plus I'm older and more aware of stuff like that.
But yeah I stopped playing in the Catacombs as a kid, falling to your death through those crumbling floors had me nervous!
One of the things that really stuck out for me was that U8 was the first game I had ever played which had something like a moral code. Like you couldn't just blindly steal things or attack people without consequence, and some events would unfold differently depending on your behavior.
I actually likewise really enjoyed the game - At LEAST enough to complete it a few times through back in the day. Basically for the same reasons you mentioned.. the story, atmosphere, music, unique magic system, etc. I may have thought part 7 (particularly the second half) was a bit more 'mysterious, & even darker' (who can forget the one queen left wandering the swamp with her skin removed?).. But Pagan was still pretty good. Have to admit.. The original release WAS nearly unplayable (I actually got to mess with it a bit AFTER completing the revised game. How they ever thought that system of jumping was 'passable' is beyond me.. the 'Patched' version was, if not perfect, at least far more sensible there..
Pretty thankful I got to play the CD version as a kid, all patched with the voice pack already added. I think playing the unpatched version as a kid would've annoyed me, probably. But yeah Ultima had dark stuff in general, like the Lady Yelinda's missing skin bit you mentioned, and that mage in the Isle of Fire in VII who sacrificed a baby to summon a liche.
This was my favorite computer game of this era although it was a bit of a resource hog on our modest family computer at the time. I was really bummed out when my family finally got internet access and I learned that Lost Vale was never going to be released 😢
I loved Pagan too. Man, for the last month for some reason I couldn't get the Tenebrae city theme music out of my head... I hadn't played Ultima 8 recently or anything, it just had become the "elevator" music in my head I kept humming.
Tenebrae's theme is iconic. Easy to remember every note to that doomed city. I never had it but I'm pretty much keeping the mp3's I dl'ed for editing. Always just listened to it on YT.
Hahaha I haven't thought of this game since I used to play the diskettes on my father's ancient computer. I used to spend hours taking random mushrooms in the forest and trying to get away with killing the executioner if I wasn't lighting flasks I'm my backpack. This was such a formative game for me and really defined how important it was for me to have such high interactivity with environments in games. I watched this out of the blue then proceeded to go to GOG. Thank you for a wonderful retrospective that took me back to how highly I thought of this game even though it was panned.
You're welcome. I was going to say you might be able to get this free on origin's EA app, but then you'd have to use origin.
Pagan was my first experience actually playing an Ultima game and being old enough to somewhat understand what I was doing. I remember trying earlier entries but I was far too young to grasp the gameplay and it was still just way too over my head for being such a young kid. Because of this, I actually adore this game and its dark atmosphere. I don't doubt that the earlier games were probably far better, but this was my real introduction to the series and I enjoyed just about every minute. I still remember how to control the movement and I'm ok with it. But I also feel the same way about old RE tank controls, so I guess that's just me. Thanks for making this video!
You're welcome, thanks for watching. I feel the same way, of course. 7 is still my all-time favorite, but 8 was just as important in getting me into the rest of the Ultima games.
I also love this game....I remember saving the game for each stone that I jumped on
If this game soured fans I can only imagine how much the next Ultima game annoyed fans
Despite the flaws and issues I loved Ascension and hope it's your next video!!
Ascension will be after the next, hoping to do a (quick) DOS horror game for October! 💀 I haven't played Ascension since it came out, so it should be interesting.
9 was literally unplayable for most people for several years. it was like the original cyberpunk 2077 1.0 in that it only ran on the most cutting edge machines when it came out, and it still ran like crap and was filled with bugs.
I love the use of pre-rendered CGI sprites, in this game.
When I was in college, we used these to some extent, to give our characters more realistic looks and animations.
Love Pagan, was my first Ultima back at 1994, the world was dark, mysterious and foreboding.
The Lithos and Pyros questlines, they were broken sure, but my 14 year old mind was exploding.
But most of all the music in this game is phenomenal.
The music is seriously the best in the series. The composer really had an idea of what Pagan is all about.
I can understand that if this was your first Ultima, but to those of us that grew up on the series, this was a real letdown.
My first ultima as well. And honestly it is most accessible- it is more Diablo like. No group. I find the older Ultimas super chaotic
@@JustMe99999it may be kinda bad in comparison considering just how incredible the ultima series has been. The music is definitely amazing....dont eat the mushrooms
@@z.s.7992 It was certainly MUCH better than U9… that game was a train wreck. Someday I hope Garriott apologizes for it.
Honestly of all the Ultima games I played back in the day, Ultima 8 stands to be one of my favorites. Like I didn't really "Get" Black Gate and the previous storylines and what you're supposed to do, at the time I was like 16 years old and I had played hundreds of games by then but I wasn't much of an RPG player. I think for me the other Ultima games were too "stats heavy" and most games with party mechanics back then I never really "got".
I loved the platformer elements of it, despite being hard to play, the game world layout was good. The magic system was cool. I'm just bummed out I didn't realize all the glitches back in the day!
Ultima 7 is still my all-time favorite like Pagan is. Just wish it was finished. And yes the magic system is unique, felt like a proper sorcerer with fire magic towards the end.
I very much enjoy your content. I have microscopic knowledge of Ultima, so it’s awesome to be plunged into this world through your experiences.
I'd love to another content by yours about another Ultima spinoffs that were World Of Ultima: Martian Dream & WoU: Savage Empire
Those are the only ones I haven't played. Honestly not sure if I'll get to them, but maybe one day.
@@Voidbrand as for now, it's free on GOG
I wish more people would try the Avernum series, formerly called Exile, they are heavily Ultima inspired and very good.
Congrats on finding that blue vial.
Heart of an explorer right there.
I always loved the atmosphere, too. It was dark, intriguing, foreboding, and I loved how the game had such a strong sense of mystery. I loved how you can pick everything up, how there are so many secrets, big and small, and the magic systems are fantastic. It is a game I love(d) despite the controls, that I agree on.
Yet another absolute banger of a video Voidbrand! I'm looking forward to each of your uploads, you're great. Ah, Ultima 8, the feels, man.
Appreciate it, sir. Definitely a nostalgic game for those who love it.
I remember finding a magic weapon in some early catacombs and also trying to kill those giants with it. Anyone else shocked that “knave” kind of left the English language?
I’ve never played Ultima but I have played Dungeon Keeper, and the final boss of that game is identical to the Avatar of Ultima VIII.
I've only played a bit of Dungeon Keeper a long time ago, but I remember that easter egg.
When this Ultima came out all my friends and family who I played the previous ones with were either not really gaming anymore or didn't make it very far before putting this one down. I stuck with it and still have fond memories of it. As far as Ultima games go, yeah it's not the best, but not comparing it to those it stands out on its own rather well.
Playing this game as a kid, I was convinced there were other landmasses on Pagan that were only separate because of the flooding, and that enough water might recede to reconnect them after the Avatar neutralized Hydros. The separated regions would have their own culture because the island of Morgaelin was as much a prison for the Titans as it was for the humans that lived there.
I appreciate these videos as someone who doesn't have time to go through this big series
Another excellent Ultima video! Love it! Like you, I am a fan of Ultima 8, despite its failings and shortcomings. The music is great, engaging magic system and a gritty darkness of a world that really drives home that you are a stranger in unfriendly territory. It's such a shame LB bowed to the pressure from EA to shorten development time while changing the gameplay to make it more appealing to the mainstream consumer.
I have had the opportunity to meet with LB a few times and he readily admits he messed up in this regard and, to his credit, accepts full responsibility for the mistake. Along with not pushing back when EA refused to release the finished DLC Lost Vale. Of course, it's easy to say that after the fact.
Keep up the great videos, subscribed!
Sucks he didn't push back on EA, but thanks a lot. Cheers.
We love Ultima 8 too!
We are going to Britannia with this one 🔥🔥🔥
Actually, I played with U8 on a friends computer somewhat before I played with my favourite, BG. So U8 was the first. But the more I played with BG and SI, the less I liked U8. And after I discovered, how little is to discover in the world (map) of Pagan, I liked it even less.
What I DO like, that Pagan also has a very distinct and creepy atmosphere. And the city of Tenebrae is great, It"s large and has quite a lot of interesting stuff in it. When I used to play with U8 as a child, I imagined that there will be at least a few more such big cities, all distinct with different people...
Origin really nailed Pagan's atmosphere here. I played this alongside VII back then, I believe. I just wish the story and add-on (The Lost Vale) was finished, with more areas to explore like extra settlements and towns and such. But the creepy atmosphere did a lot to keep me glued till the game was finished.
I loved the game back then and would love to see newer games bring back some of the elements from U8. Exploration, lore, not having a quest marker all the time and finding stuff by yourself...the mystery and reward that goes along with it! U8 ambience, mood and kind of "hardcore" side really appeals to me.
Oh boy, I can't wait for the Ultima IX video! I'm sure being the Titan of Aether will have a great and satisfying payoff. Right? Right???
I remember it not being mentioned at all in 9. I hope so because I was going to complain about it!
@@Voidbrand I was being sarcastic about how it has no payoff at all.
@@Kammereer I'm aware. 👍
This game is bad, but compared to the train wreck that Ultima 9 was, it looks like a masterpiece. Ultima 7 is where the series ended in my opinion, and it's a masterpiece of a game.... one of the greatest RPGs of all time.
I haven't played 9 since it came out, should be interesting. 7 still ranks as my all-time favorite CRPG and Ultima game to this day.
@@Voidbrand IMHO, Ultima 7, Baldur's Gate 2, and The Witcher 3 are the best RPGs ever made.
Nice to see so many people who also love this game in one place. I've been defending Ultima 8 for many years. It's a flawed game and it gets a lot wrong, but the things it gets right, like the atmosphere, it gets *so* right
100% agree. The soundtrack really enhances the tone of the world too. If a game has something going for it like that it makes me want to keep playing.
@@Voidbrand Weirdly part of what I found appealing was probably caused by the game being rushed and unfinished. There were a lot of unexplained loose ends in the world, stuff that was just kind of there without bothering to inform the player of why it was there. Sometimes it didn't even really have a purpose at all. It made the world feel as if it wasn't crafted for me, it was just a world, I happened to be in it, and I wouldn't be able to find a satisfying answer to everything I encountered.
Man, such great content, keep it up!
Makes Spoony look like a scrub.
Haha. But Spoony was good too.
Never played ultima series, but was surprised to see the whole game being a spin-off about dungeon keeper 1 boss lol. I know its an just a reference since both games been made under EA, but it was hilarious anyway
Pagan feels like a spin-off of Ultima Underworld, trying to dip its toes in yet another genre; not a bad idea but it's just so weird. It's also the start of where things go way off the rails in terms of productions and all the background stuff. I don't know if I should anticipate an Ultima 9 review or dread it.
Given how dark it is as a game, I wonder if it would have been better to remake it or have something else done with it specifically, given how despised this entry and the following one are; maybe pull a Namco and remake Ultima 8 and Ultima 9 as a single game with new systems, perhaps take inspiration from something tertiary, like the Dragn Buster series did back in 1999. Instead of simply remaking Dragon Buster 1 and 2, Dragon Valor basically re-invented the whole franchise in a most unique fashion to the point where it's a new game and a spiritual remake of the first two games, with a unique branching bloodline mechanic only seen in the Agarest Senki strategy games AFAIK. Maybe Origin should consider giving the rights to a japanese studio and tell them to remake those games, see what they dish out; their interpretations of Ultima were certainly...unique and grotesque, given the manga based on U3,U5,U6 and one based on everything up to U5 at the time. Who knows, maybe something cool would happen; it worked for Wizardry, somewhat.
Oh wait, EA owns the rights to Ultima...darn.
Yes! Pagan should be another underworld entry. "Ultima Underworld III: Pagan" would be more fitting. If they translates Pagan into 3D engine like the first 2 UUW, it would be a different beast of ambitious & immersive game and the dungeon explorarion with the monster would be way terrific to deal with.
If Pagan been developed and translated into 3D, then it would definitely be great to be marketed as "Ultima Underworld 3: Pagan".
If the devs keep it isometric like this, then Pagan would fit better as "World Of Ultima: Pagan" then we could've had another interesting "World Of Ultima" installment after Savage Empire and Martian Dream. Pagan remind me a bit of Savage Empire
@@ytgc-royalewarex5190my thought, exactly.
The first in the series that I played was Ultima III, not long after it came out. I went back to Ultima I and II soon after and then closely followed the series through Ultima VII. When Ultima VIII came out, a friend got into it before I did, and watching him play the game made me not want to touch it. This was before the patch. The jumping problem was horrendous, and the action combat was not something I ever wanted. Many long time Ultima fans were nerds who don't have reflexes, and inserting action elements into our beloved series caused many of us, myself included, to have hissy fits. (Ultima I has some mild action elements in the space portions, and Ultima II has the idiotic spaceship landing mechanic. I don't like those either.) The patch made some of this less bad, but it remains a barrier to my enjoyment of the game. It felt like they had finally hit the right formula with Ultima VII and then turned away from it in a futile effort to bring in a new audience. Ultima IX continued this trend and is far worse. Maybe the reason I don't have such a bad opinion of Ultima VIII now is that Ultima IX happened, and Ultima VIII is a masterpiece in comparison.
Ultima VIII and IX remain the only mainline Ultima games I have not completed. Some time ago, I went part way through Ultima VIII. I like the atmosphere, and the story has some great ideas despite being unfinished, but it was the moment to moment mechanics of the game that finally caused me to throw up my hands in frustration. I see this game as an idea that had great potential that was not realized because of pressure to rush it out the door and bad design decisions in the game mechanics. Having elements of action games in the Underworld series was fine since those were spin-offs, but if I want to play an action platformer, I'll play Donkey Kong. I don't want that in a main line Ultima game. However, I don't share some of the common criticisms. Not having a party makes perfect sense in this setting, and the dark atmosphere and the sense that there is nothing you can do to save this world drive home just how nasty the Guardian is. This is a game that could use a fan remake along the lines of those that were done many years ago for Ultima V and VI as Dungeon Siege mods, but it doesn't seem likely to happen. Add character customization, fill in the holes in the story, remove the platforming, and implement turn based or real time with pause combat, and it could be a great game.
Love your content!!
Yeah I felt about the same as you. It hinged so much on the following title and UIX wasn't... awful? They just took it in such a different direction and with the whole EA/project-management stuff that ended up being a game I really tried hard to like and it just wouldn't requite. And *that* brought UVIII down a few notches, held up by UVII and held down by UIX.
I remember the gameplay being ok back then, just the story was messed up. But I haven't played it since it came out. Looking forward to play it soon, honestly.
I liked the game. It was the first Ultima game I played and I really liked it for it's atmosphere. Tenebrae is very well constructed city and the entire world is very bleak and unique compared to all other games.
Oh. How did I missed this video. I love pagan for its atmosphere and story but yeah it sucks in many ways. Still, the game definitely had and impact on me. I like you are alone and the new, unknown world. This game really deserves some fan made update, finishing the missing storylines etc.
I also tried to vind a key for the big door in the plateau
Really disappointed that the fifth element wasn't an orange haired Milla Jovovich.
Same here. And no flying taxi to ride around Pagan. 2 of the most disappointing things in Pagan. 💀
Thanks for your interesting and quite entertaining retrospective! I immensely enjoyed the game back in the days. Apart from Link's Awakening for the Gameboy this was my first true RPG. Of coruse, it's a flawed masterpiece due xxxing EA's ridiculous deadline. But the game's dark and ominous atmosphere is sheer overwhemling and unmatched to this. You have to put so much energy into the game to get to this point, but it's absolutely worth is. Which is something most of the games nowadays are lacking. They take you by the hand and don't trust you to do anything on your own. Back then I even had to program a boot disk to start it on a Win 98 system. A quite challenging endeavor for a eleven year old greenhorn. Neno Vugrinec's meta-tonal score was propably one of the main reasons for Pagan's beautifully eerie atmosphere and the coherently dense gameplay. Most of the earlier Ultima games had great music, too, but only Pagan and Ascension both had a unique musical score based on motifs for different locations, persons and events. I especially love the simplistic but never naive feeling of the background track for Tenebrae. I made some rearrangements of these tunes. You can check them on my channel. Anyway, keep up the good work!
Thanks for your comment. Flawed game, but I still enjoy it to this day. Vugrinec's score really matched the tone of Pagan much like Jeremy Soule's did for the Morrowind to Skyrim and Icewind Dale. I'll check out the rearrangements.
I know it's a crappy Ultima... I know this... but holy shit I loved this game as a kid despite all it's flaws. I had only played Ultima V before VIII, we never had a computer that would run VI or VII when they were in stores.
The game was... almost a bit scary as a 12 year old. Super creepy. I loved the magic. I would craft all kind of extra spell things just to goof around with. I moved into a house in Trinibree, and horded reagents and explosives. If I set off a bomb in my bomb chest and created a cascading reaction, it would lock up my computer for like 4 minutes.
Was definitely a scary game back then. Was pretty much done when I fell through the floor in the catacombs.
100% agreed dude , and yep David's video is also legendary =]
Was a really good, refreshing video.
I love this game too; back when it was released I even finished it pre-patch. (Fans will know what an ordeal that was.)
I have to say though, I'm riding the nostalgia train every time I replay it (once every few years) and can't recommend this incredibly flawed game to anyone. 😅
I never got to play the pre-patched version, kind of glad I didn't. 💀
My first Ultima game... yeah. Still, it IS atmospheric as hell for all of its flaws. I remembered it for life, I was amazed by it. I understand its, ahem, imperfection now, but I can't help it, it still evokes epic memories. I once killed a guard by surrounding one with dozens of bombs... and he had nothing of value, NOTHING! I once made a guard fight Beren, but nothing came of it. I did a lot of imsim things there, just living in the world and all.
It's definitely imperfect, would've loved to see them put more time into it. And yeah these guards and the monsters have pretty much nothing on them! 💀 Off the top of my head trolls, ghosts and changelings carry money, but money is only really used for Mythran's thaumaturgy spells. Which might not be required.
Such an atmospheric game though and I still enjoy my romp through it. Despite all that 7 and 8 were my first Ultima games. I'm noticing fans of Pagan started with either 7 or 8 like I did.
@@Voidbrand Damn right... a stingy charmer, eh. Hey, using the chance, gotta say that you're balm to my wound, dude. I'm enjoying each and every upload.
@@Maggerama Thank you very much, happy you're enjoying these.
This was interesting to see. I've heard so many times it's horrible title, but there appears to be quite a bit I'd like. I think I'll try it more thoroughly some day.
It's definitely a hated game, but I've been seeing a bit more people coming out explaining their positive experiences with Pagan. The GOG page has it rated at 3.6/5 now compared to 2.6/5 with 9. I think it was higher than expected even when 8 came out on GOG.
Loved playing this game as a kid even when it was not patched. After that even more so. All the unfinished stuff just prompted me to explore more, hoping I would find something about them in the game. Was very disappointed when learning afterwards all of that stuff were victims of plot cuts. Atmosphere and even the diminished story made me complete it several times, discovering some out of the way stuff in later plays which had been left in the game. I agree with your take on the game.
Never got to play the unpatched version but that's the first praise I heard about that. Glad to see there's other fans that feel the same about the atmosphere. No other game is quite like it when it comes to it.
I loved it, I played as a kid for hours, never finished because it was the release version (never heard what a patch was about) so I always ended up being locked from progress for some stupid reason. The most painful one was not having enough money to buy the ethereal travel spell, and mythran only offering to sell it once, you have no money, game over LOL. Years later I finaly finished it. Tried to like ultima vii, but I think it sucks huge time. Pagan will always be one of my favorite games.
I had no idea 8 was so hated. I definitely agree that it's a steep drop from 7 but I thought it was cool to get stronger by doing stuff as well as the magic schools. It really reminds me of diablo in the ultima universe.
I didn't know it was hated either until much later. But I naturally enjoyed Diablo 1 right after playing this game.
Oh man, I really have been hoping to hear more from people who have... well, I think 8 has a lot of writing that's still very apt for the series and it's... yeah, it's a weird game. I mostly just want to see what other people think and most people haven't said anything in a long time. So it's nice that I'm not the only one who has a soft remembrance in spite of the game's problems.
Yeah it's why I liked the other Pagan review I mentioned. It's definitely a flawed Ultima game, but the atmosphere and soundtrack is something that keeps me going. I'm also one of the weird ones that don't struggle with the controls.
That said I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who enjoys this game, so seeing the comments here and David's review has me feeling less alone than the Avatar did on Pagan!
What a missed opportunity. Maybe it deserves another try but I remember the deep disappointment, surprised About the positive stance but, great it worked for you!
Will you also discuss Ultima 9. I had it in my youth but never really played it. For me Utlima was Ultima 7 and maybe a bit of UO and Pagan... but i somehow never got into 9.
I plan on diving into 9 the video after the next. Looking to do a (hopefully) quick horror DOS game for October.
I could swear I killed that guy in Dungeon Keeper.
I understand this reference.
As a long time Ultima fan (one of my first computer games was Ultima 5 on Apple II)... I don't hate Ultima 8. I quite like it. It's definitely rushed, unfinished, and imperfect. But it also does a lot right. It was ahead of its time, I guess. Thanks for the video.
HAH and as I say that you say it's "backwards." Look, I get it... in some ways it seems "backwards" in terms of being a less geeky RPG with stats, XP and stuff... but in another way, it hearkens to later RPGS where everything's kinda abstracted away from the player. I'll admit I prefer the former more, but it does forebode the latter.
let's make every.. sing... chest... explode.. EVEN with the key or a scroll of open/disarm... why not? i mean.. what could go wrong?
Elder Scrolls VI, I see your future
U8 is not even fitting to be in main series. It would be make sense to be another Underworld game and given the story premise of Pagan is darker and gritty.
The intro where the Avatar had been portal'ed and then directly fell onto Pagan world beneath the sky, make sense a lot because Pagan felt like another strange & mysterious Underworld place to me. If Origin wanted to implement a lot of ambitious stuff, including the ridiculous platforming level, then Pagan should be design and translated into 3D engine element like Underworld so then it could be way more accessible & playable. Develop Pagan to be in isometric without a feature like free flowing camera adjustment & rotation (that already exist at the time like Syndicate Wars as an example) are painful & unplayable in some certain area like the platforming thing, etc, etc, eventhough the jumping mechanic was there.
Not to mentioned, U8 also had a lot of creepy dungeon exploration level. Imagine if we do a dungeon quest and explore the cave & catacomb level in 3D, then it would be mind blowing and ultimate horror ultima experience. So I think if Pagan been re-considered as "Ultima Underworld 3: Pagan" and been developed as 3D Ultima, after the first 2 Underworld, it would make sense and different beast of the game in its own.
If Pagan been developed and translated into 3D, then it would definitely be great to be marketed as "Ultima Underworld 3: Pagan".
If the devs keep it isometric like this, then Pagan would fit better as "World Of Ultima: Pagan"
@@ytgc-royalewarex5190 yes! World of Ultima would be fit for it too. I would like another WoU game. Pagan as a spinoffs of its own is either be fit in between WoU or Underworld but I think Pagan as a 3rd UU game would have be much ambitious and another level of immersion quality.
@@pko_2.0_pop7 Yeah, I think Origin missed their opportunity there. I still think Serpent Isle is the "real Ultima 8" experience as it should be and Pagan deserved better as its own spinoffs game, which could either be another Underworld or World Of Ultima
I hope there would be a community to recreated Pagan
3:08
Nobody ever mentions the Bruce Campbell cameo
I haven't played this in 25+ years, so I don't remember it in detail. What I do remember is that its a perfect example of mechanics vs. story/atmosphere. There are many games like it, that do one well, but not the other. Classics do both. It just felt like you're battling bad game design as much as the enemies. Probably the result of feature creep and budgeting. Seems to be the end result of most successful game studios, hence, ES VI fears. Look at FO 76 and SF.
The A+ story/atmosphere did a lot to keep me playing.
I get the concerns for Elder Scrolls VI. Didn't get Starfield at release, first time since Morrowind.
@@Voidbrand yup, you're better off. I stopped at the 10 hour mark. Might revisit it in a few months. Playing oblivion right now, I sorta rushed it back in the day
I think the game was fun...buggy...but fun. However, I don't think it was a good continuation of the Guardian Story and could have just been a seperate game from the mainline Ultima series like Underworld.
U8 is definitely downhill for the series for me. I liked the darker tone (why U7 is one of my faves), and the Guardian dropping the Avatar onto a place he already conquered. Maybe due to his ego or fascination with such an opponent as the Avatar, never thought he'd ascend to being a Titan on Pagan. Or figured the Avatar was too goody-two-shoed to do what needed to be done to survive (unfortunately we learn more about the Guardian in U9). I donno... a lot of ideas they could of explored. Especially the Avatar having to deal with doing some very un-Avatar things. But nope, nothing. Heck it could have lead into something the Avatar had to wrestle with in 9... but we all know how that went. Sadly i understand EA and time constants... just a shame they stripped away a lot of what made the Ultimas great to streamline the gameplay.
But hey, i have no problems with people liking what i don't. It's nice to see a positive spin on a touchy subject like Ultima 8, or at least someone explaining why they can appreciate the game.
Can't wait for the Ultima 9 review.
Ultima 8 is very touchy in some online spaces! But long-time fans disliking is understandable, just wish sometimes they'd at least give credit to the little story in it (the reviews I mean), plus the atmosphere (and music, the composer went all out in it), but I feel that only a few Ultima fans can appreciate that part of the game. I'm told it's not enough to make it a good game, but it always kept me playing.
As far as the Avatar doing un-Avatar like things, I loved the idea of it, but I'd like to see something like the Avatar trying to keep his virtues while finding a way back home, like maybe it takes him longer and he sacrifices parts of himself or something, or he can go full anti-virtue and make it back quicker, kind of like playing a greedy Avatar in Black Gate and Serpent Isle. The game could be a reflection of how the player plays, like previous Ultima games where the devs tested the player on their own virtues. The exception being you're constantly tested in Pagan due to how stifling the environment is and how desperate the player/Avatar is.
I always viewed the idea of Ultima VIII being that the Guardian knows that the Avatar may succeed, but in doing so he abandons all the virtues, and is able to use that to make Britannia lose hope in the Avatar as a symbol. This raises up the questions of imperfect heroes and the concept of hero-worship. If the person who represents the virtues can't stick to that path, then what hope does anyone else have?
But of course Ultima IX just failed to deliver on this promise.
It has a lot of good bits in it - all of which has nothing to do with the gameplay, really. The atmosphere and music was superb. The characters, however few there were, were cool too. As an Ultima game, though, it is horrid.
I liked ultima 8 because I played it when I was like 9 and it was very interesting to me, but yeah I don't think its a very good game I wish I could see what it could of been with more time or care given to it.
I can't play this game because it got bugged and killed my save.
If EA had given it another few years of development, it'd had been an actual masterpiece.
22:46 why can’t you see the sorcerer getting killed? That’s pretty dumb
4:3
To me "Ultima" ended at Ultima VI, and everything after didn't happen.
This is a game made by people that wanted to appeal to a new audience but couldn't force themselves to admit they needed to change the title. What they tried to do here was just done better a few years later by this game you have probably heard of called Diablo. Of course even the hero of Diablo is somehow morally on better footing than the "Avatar" in Ultima 8. That's the real reason most actual UItima fans who had played the earlier games didn't like this. Not the missing companions, not the horrible jumping, it's the fact that you are the "avatar" in name only and the REAL Avatar would never have agreed to human sacrifice to get the job done. That was the whole reason you were the Avatar.
So I hate this game to it's core, because it isn't Ultima, and it doesn't surprise me at all that the people who like it all say "it was my first ultima" or "I only played 7 before this". I notice the "I was kid when I first played this" is a pretty strong sentiment too. I realize this an unpopular opinion for this comment section, but it is what it is. As a "random name X" adventure game this would have been a mediocre but not bad game, and an Ultima game? It's trash.
once again EA ruining what could be such an amazing game. I actually enjoyed the pieces of this game that were good. Could you imagine if there was a fleshed out combat system. It was so different from anything at the time that I had played and yes the platforming was annoying as hell but I looked at those as brief spikes of difficulty.
To other folks watching this video:
What is one thing you would change about this game to improve it?
I would add a companion system...you can only bring one at a time. like each companion does a different thing to help with traversal or magic.....the rest stay at an inn in the main town,.
I loved this game, but the jumping was poo pants.