Ultima VIII: Pagan - Review / Retrospective
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- Опубликовано: 10 ноя 2023
- The penultimate chapter of the Ultima saga, which is often maligned, but... is honestly not that bad.
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The entire Ultima review series playlist: ruclips.net/p/PL6ySdS-taQCLCyXvRRoHCYgBDo2h8bUle
Very nice!
Do you plan to do the Ultima Worlds series as part of this?
@@marbles8641 Eventually, but having focused on nothing but Ultima for over a year now, I feel like taking a break from the series after IX is a good idea to avoid a burnout.
@@finntrovert Hope you have a lot of alcohol for 9.
@@marbles8641 Oh the worst part is already behind me.
Getting it to run while still being able to record it. XD
Too bad Gariot turned into a scamming crypto bro in the end :(
It is a shame so many older devs jumped on that bandwagon.
Didn't he kind of mess up badly far beforet whole Crypto debacle with Shroud Of The Avatar?
But yes it's sad to see a lot of these older game developers who just have no idea or absolutely will not update their gameplay ideas for Modern Audiences.
I can't think of one of the bigger names from amongst Richard Garriot's Era who's made one noteworthy thing since the mid 90s.
@@ProfMarkQBrian Fargo?
@@zpaculaBrian Fargo was a producer, not a developer of any kind.
I had no idea Richard fell for crypto. That's one of the most disappointing things I've heard in a long time.
The sorcery magic system in Ultima 8 is the most immersive and cool magic system in any game I've ever played. Setting up your candles and reagents around the pentagram to imbue a wand makes it feel so much weightier than anything else I've seen.
Hard agree!
I really like the sorcery system.
If it doesn't get cumbersome, I like the fantasy of it!
Absolutely! Still drawing lots of inspiration from it, even after all these years. Whenever a magic-heavy Game is released, I hope for something similar...but it is mostly flashy fireworks without much substance these days. One day, someone will have the balls and skill to pull something similar off
I see Ultima VIII as one of the greatest missed opportunities in the history of game development. The stripped down version of the game we got hinted at something far greater, something that could have changed the entire future of RPG gaming.
Alas, this is all we got. It's also sad that the work that had been done on the cancelled Lost Vale expansion was destroyed. Someone who has been working on a modern engine for Ultima VIII, like Exult for Ultima VII could have used that as a springboard for making as close of an approximation as possible to the expansion pack that never was.
It changed the rpg history: it was the benchmark for the very first mmorpg, Ultima On Line.
Who is working on a modern engine for u8?
@@DezorianGuy ScummVM is apparently it.
@@HouseOfAlastrian Does it enhance the experience somewhat?
I've always been slightly fascinated by the concept behind Ultima VIII. Despite some of the characters and quests not being fully fleshed out, it was still interesting to see the Avatar in a world under the influence of the Guardian. Although the moral dimensions weren't fully explored, the player was put in the role of progressing at any cost, regardless of the consequences for this society. That said, I do think they made a huge mistake with the platforming.
Very much agreed. Even if parts of the game are obviously not as fleshed out as they wanted them to be, the concepts are still very interesting and a good continuation of Ultima's trends of subverting expectations and exploring new moral quandaries.
The platforming itself? I think the idea of platforming in a game like this can work really well, it's just that this specific implementation was not terribly good.
Ultima VIII always felt to me like the building blocks of an amazing game that got cut at the knees. Each Ultima challenged the themes and ideas of every previous Ultima, and this one is no different in that regard.
Have to watch it yet, but it didn't start with BETRAYAL ;D
You never know when someone you trust is going to stab you in the back. Still...it's those betrayals from someone you loved deeply that hurt the most and cut to the bone
BETRAYED ME
This game SUUUUCKS!
@@misterkefir opinion
@@ThommyofThenn *wooosh*
This video is really a gateway to the past. This was my first Ultima game, and it's been one of the best games I ever played.
There was something amazing about it - absolutely zero hand holding, having no internet connection to look up things. I remember reading a book inside the game about a weapon, then using the hints from there to find it - it felt amazing.
Personally I think the battle was fine the way it was, because it made you feel weak, like a normal person in a difficult world (the OG souls like in my book). And it was almost optional, which is unusual compared to today's RPGs.
For me, the only bad thing about the game was platforming, which was eventually patched. Granted the patch made it too easy, but dying was brutal on my 486 taking over a minute to save and load games.
Try respawning in rust without a sleeping bag 300 seconds or so while you’re being raided
oh boy those loading times after the 100th missed jump :)
A new Finn video, it truly is almost Christmas
I remember playing this back when it was released. Loved everything about it, but the jumping XD
Edit: thank you for this, I loved this series. So many fond memories playing these games when I was younger and they we very formative, remembering these and seeing the games played out again is making me smile.
Despite it's flaws Ultim 8 is still one of my favorite rpgs of all time. The thick atmosphere of this game is something special.
Ah! a Kindred spirit ! I also happen to love Ultima8. Ironically enough, the combat can be almost all bypassed as it serves no purpose whatsoever. Most enemies give crappy loot (except those that give obsidian coins, and this is only useful early on when you need to gear up, later there's plenty of free upgrades, or to buy spells from Mithran. So I just didn't care and didn't fight a lot. The game story in the manuals and in-game books is really good (well, ignoring the children stories), and the game flows well. The game could/should be remade to modern system or an exult port, but seeing we're very few who love it it's not happening anytime soon. At least it's still perfectl;y playable.
In my head-cannon, we never destroyed Pagan, we saved it.
- Lithos no longer can threaten earthquakes or steal the souls of the Pagans, nor can he raise the dead.
- The loss of Statos will sting, and losing the multi-century knowledge of Stellos is a tragedy, but getting sunshine back from dispatching her will make the land much better.
- Pyros was an absolute evil entity with no redeeming qualities, the fact he is gone is nothing but improvements... Tho the volcano could now follow a similar geologic activities to earth ones.
- Hydros was also very evil, but with her gone, again nothing much changes... Rains will follow a more seasonal/regular pattern, I recon close to the Hawaiian Climate.
The only time of strife for the pagan would be when the avatar released Hydros then Pyros until we dispatched them for good. so what? a few days? and the obvious fight for power that will occur after we are gone. There where 2 followers of the old gods (the executioner and the blacksmith) - maybe more, so that religion should rebound.
That's how I see it, and also would explain the never released expention, where after leaving Pagan with that void, you went to free the 3 gods and maybe a few estranged followers inside the lost vale where the titans had trapped all of them.
Loved the review, thanks for the video !
I just blitzed through your entire Ultima playlist since finding you on Saturday! Fantastic contender and it made me a subscriber! Are you going todo the Ultima World games by chance? I'd love to see you cover them.
Thank you!
And yes, eventually, but after a year of Ultima, I think it would be a good idea to do some other games and franchises for a while after I've finished Ultima IX.
Reminds me a lot of Ultima Online, loved that game. It's still going good with Public UO servers.
Exactly why I love watching vids about Ultima VIII. Reminds me of when I played UO! Such great times when I played it around 1998
Here to shout out Spoony reviews.
His videos are indeed good to watch!
And comparatively have a very different point of view. Him being an old fan, and me being a much more recent one.
Watching all your episodes. Hoping you do the spin offs too. I never played any, but like you always read about it on paper magazines back in the day, all the praise it recieved. Always been curious about it. Thank you for taking your time to share it.
Thank you!
And I eventually will play the spinoffs, just not immediately after Ultima IX.
As much as I enjoy the series, after slightly over a year of focusing on Ultima, I feel like I want to play some other games for a while, as there are so many games already on my list of "want to talk about these".
Thanks for your retrospective. I for my part immensely enjoyed the game back in the days. Apart from Link's Awakening for the Gameboy this was my first true RPG. Of coruse, it's a flawed masterpiece due to EA's ridiculous deadline. But the game's dark and ominous atmosphere is sheer overwhemling and unmatched to this. You have to put so much energy into the game to get to this point, but it's absolutely worth is. Which is something most of the games nowadays are lacking. They take you by the hand and don't trust you to do anything on your own. In this regard you made a very important point concerning (often trapped) chests in Pagan. Some areas don't even have a single useful item and I love this kind of now forgotten realism in a game... Another important aspect: Neno Vugrinec's meta-tonal score was propably one of the many reasons for Pagan's beautifully eerie atmosphere and the coherently dense gameplay. Most of the earlier Ultima games had great music, too, but only Pagan and Ascension both had a unique musical score based on motifs for different locations, persons and events. I especially love the simplistic but never naive feeling of the background track for Tenebrae. I made some rearrangements of these tunes. You can check them on my channel. Anyway, keep up the good work!
So many years ago when I played this game I was completely lost as to what to do, had to rely on a guide to make any progress and even with that, the game was very painfully hard. A game today would have a waypoint system to remove much of the guesswork, and a difficulty scaling system would be needed to balance out the frustration of clunky movement and combat
As a general rule, I agree that many games should have those kinds of things as an option.
Kind of like what the System Shock remake is meant to have when the patch comes out, where you can CHOOSE to have waypoint markers if you want to.
But also, I think they can become a crutch in game development, where having markers can take focus out of making the areas make sense.
So, in my opinion, yes, markers can be useful, but the game should be designed as if you didn't have the markers, so players have a better time exploring instead of being forced to rely on the markers or just luck to progress.
This game is a stain on my records. It was originally too janky and complicated for my young brain and I buried it deep in my memories. Guess I'll have to download it now....😅
I need to play this again in the near future and also the two Crusader games based on the same engine.
I liked how you gave it a chance
VIII has always been my favorite game. I know that it was lacking some of the features from previous games, but the way it all came together just felt good to me.
I always liked the multiverse stories, but not like Marvel, where every universe is populated with versions of the same characters, which renders the stakes to null, but of Roger Zelazny's Amber series or the worlds of the Eternal Champion by Moorcock, where every world is unique and even if there are alternative version of a character the differences are so big that in no way they can be substituted as each other. And in the end the entire multiverse is just gigantic playing field of the primal forces of order and chaos each one of them trying to gain advantage by any means necessary. I never viewed Ultima VIII as bad game just flawed, the next game on the other hand can go to hell.
Thank you for this! I’ve been hoping for this review as I have an odd love for this game.
From my perspective, it's not that odd. XD
The beginning of the End of the Ultima Series. Probably one of the biggest disappointments for me when it comes to my history as a gamer that goes all the way back to 1981
Just read your bio and can't believe you are Finnish! (thought your name was "Finn" lol). I'm Swedish, and I gotta say that your English is absolutely perfect.
Thank you!
I thank all my teachers. Michael Knight, Angus MacGyver, and Sherlock Holmes.
Though... I CAN do the stereotypical Finnish accent, which I sometimes annoy people with. XD
The bandwagon of hate towards Ultima 8 is really so unjust. I don't think people ever realized the potential of the U8 lore and it makes me so sad that the entire game is trashed because of some annoying mechanics which got patched, where the majority of bandwagoners today haven't ever played the unpatched version.
The atmosphere is excellent, it really reminds you at every moment that you are in a stranger world, totally isolated and very desperate. Old rules of magic don't apply here, the virtues mean nothing. You are cast into an island that is both ruined and barely held together by Titans that the people worship. It's like you are suddenly an outsider to a cult that you have absolutely no clue about. After 7 games with Britannia, they really executed the concept of a stranger world very well.
The soundtrack is extremely well done, fits perfectly to the atmosphere. I don't even need to talk about the soundtrack.
The mechanics are definitely setting some foundation for a potentially excellent game but had to be rushed and stay unpolished. The magic system was unique and very cool. I know it's not practical but it feels like a real ritual to prepare spells, which somehow feels very cool, feels like every school of magic has a deep history and weight of its own. Jumping could've been done better, but it's still better to be able to climb and jump than stacking things.
The lore is... oh my, the potential of it is so damn great. The schools of magic, the "balance" between titans, the details of the history as you dig deeper. This stranger world is actually not some placeholder for the next game, it has a whooole damn history with very interesting details. I've seen a lot of reviews where the story is criticized because we are doing "unavatar" things, but that's the damn point?! This is a sacrifice you are doing for greater purpose. The virtues don't work here, they won't help you at all. Could there be an alternative ending where you don't destroy the rest of Pagan? Yeah, sure. I wish they had more time for two endings where the good alternative would be the Avatar becoming Titan of Ether after earning the trust and love and worship of people, which would make other Titans weaker and allowing the Avatar to beat them and capture their powers, and the Avatar using his new godly powers to reshape and stabilize Pagan before leaving, restoring Zealans and maybe even installing the virtue system to that world, by allowing people of Pagan to access the Codex of Wisdom? That would be an alternative with longer gameplay if you wanted to do good deeds. However, the lore we have is still very good. Avatar doing unavatar things could be reflected in the next game somehow.
Patching the platforming doesn't fix all the other issues that people have had with Ultima 8. While it might of had a decent story, U8 still seems like a step forwards, and many back from Ultima 7. Most of the hate is just; they do at least explain why they do not like this entry. The game ultimately being rushed didn't help and further soured the gaming experience to a lot of fans.
U8 is underrated and would have been a classic if not rushed.
Please don't ever stop making videos.
If I can upload my brain into a computer? Yes.
This
This was my first Ultima game....and dear god the jumping.
Pre-patch it was... indeed something.
@@finntrovert That was how I played it, prepatch from a CD
At first, I wanted to make fun of a certain other comment, but then decided to be more Avatar-like: Thank you for another great review and video! I'm very much looking forward to the Ultima IX video. I hope it'll be at least one hour long!
I promise nothing, but we'll see how long it will be!
It very well might be a bit long, for reasons.
Of course I played them all nine. I remember I loved to play Ultima IV most. But from Ultima 6 the series started to become dark and depressive. Yes, I agree that Ultima 7 was a masterpiece, an impressive game in an artificial world with a lot of freedom. But... I already felt lonely sometimes. Ultima 8 Pagan was about walking alone in dark caves, going the same ways again and again and always alone. Playing Pagan always ruined a good mood. Well, Ultima IX of course was capable of starting a depressive episode. The only companion stayed on a ship and left you alone for everything. Whenever she appeared she was in trouble - or I was in trouble. But nobody was at your side. Beside this there was an awful gameplay "What is a paladin?".
And then there were no Ultima games beyond Pagan.......
Deeply flawed game (due almost entirely to platforming, along with repetitive cave sprites making it easy to get lost), with some of the best atmosphere ever, and every magic system was incredibly creative and satisfying (except maybe Theurgy). Will always have a special place in my heart,
Great video. I disagree with your conclusions to some degree, but of course that's personal preference mostly. I remember being blown away by how good the game looked for its time, and all the amazing new features. Then I remember being devastated by how badly it betrays the themes of the series, and how boring and repetitive the world got to be later on. The added a few great things while taking away most of the best things about the series in general.
The magic systems were next level though. They were sophisticated in ways that are still impressive. There was so much effort that you could put into preparing for later things like combat and exploring. It wasn't all about just running around summoning fire out of your hands or whatever. Being prepared actually meant preparing!
From a plot standpoint: the worst part about it is that there's no options to try to do any good. The Avatar is supposed to be an exalted being of The Virtues; yet you are expected to further doom an entire world while leaving no one option for salvation. Its an interesting plot concept, but its terrible writing for an Ultima game.
This game had an absolutely epic amount of potential that was squandered in so many ways by everything from the dev's childish need to rile people up with the pentagrams and the name of the game to all the missed opportunities for meaningful choices that got pushed out the door in dumbed-down form.
Its also a lot easier to review the game now and not hate on it. When it was released: it was hard to even complete the game due to bugs, poorly-marked areas, and the ability to dead-end your game without knowing it. The whole thing was a massive exercise in developer hubris leading to a sales failure. It also marked the very real decline of Richard Garriott's legend in the business. I think its lucky for him that he got into making games when he did because I honestly don't think he would make it in today's game economy. Then again: today's game developers have a slew of tools at hand that devs of Lord British's time did not. So I have to give them some slack in that regard. Either way I appreciate the retrospective thanks.
I admit, I am comparatively lenient towards the last two games in the series, and part of it comes from exactly what you mentioned.
It's easier to review these games now, since there are multiple patches which weren't there at launch, the hardware is faster so the games don't suffer from poor performance because of high system requirements, and how I wasn't a fan back then, so I have the benefit of not having expectations from a series that at that point was basically legendary.
Other than that, yeah, I don't really disagree with much you said here. I do think the theme of the game is as an idea very interesting, but also clearly lacks depth, and it would have been better if in fact there was an opportunity to try and be good, even if it all backfired in the end because there is only one conclusion that can happen if you want to leave.
Ultima VIII could have been so much better, now it's an interesting relic with some ideas I find fascinating, which are obscured too much by the end product being just unfinished.
Perhaps in a way, I like the idea of the game the most.
@@finntrovert Well said. I just would have loved some option to try to do something more nuanced. Like maybe you need to destroy the world of Pagan, but how great would it be to be able to side quest to provide ways for friendly NPCs to escape as well. I would have also loved a better resolution to the Titan of Air. This would be a great project for a remake, but we'll see if anyone ever does one.
I’ll only tune into the next one if you promise not to shout “betrayal!” Ever other minute
That's an easy promise! Shouting so much seems difficult to the voice.
On a more serious note, I don't think I'm quite as emotionally attached to the series, and even when originally streaming it, I tried to look for positives more than focusing on the negatives.
Spoony’s reviews were (very) fun but hardly made sense for the later games, especially U8 and U9. These games weren’t as bad as portrayed.
your ultima analysis is awesome. i'm interested in what you say about IX ascension! also will you take a look at ultima worlds ?
Thank you!
Eventually I will want to look at the spinoffs, but after a year of focusing on Ultima, I feel like as much as I am enjoying this after IX, I want to look at some other games and series first.
So many games, so little time.
@@finntrovert Morrowind!
Another great video, thanks for the hard work.
Thanks for watching!
Coming from U7 to U8, it was kind of hard not to be disappointed with U8. The opening of U8 does set high expectations, but it becomes obvious shortly after that that they just never implemented most of U7s features that made it so immersive.
Still, its a good story, a great setting and I had many good hours with it, it just fell way short of the expectations I had.
I shouted at the screen for almost an hour!!! =P
In all seriousness, it's good storytelling, altho not the best of the series (that'd be 7-2, imo). But the changes of gameplay, and the myiriad of glitches at launch made this a nightmare to play.
It's understandable. These days even playing unpatched is much more pleasant, as we are not limited by insufficiently powerful and insanely expensive hardware.
So, so far what's the score in number of times a world or civilisation has been saved vs destroyed for the Avatar? about 8 vs 4?
Thank you, this was an amazing review
Thank you!
“Hello there”
General Chrisobi.
Having grown up with Ultima, my first being Ultima III: Exodus on the Atari 800XL... Ultima 8 was sorta a letdown. This is the 2nd review i've seen that spot lights some of the good in U8, and maybe i really do need to revisit the game. If anything, i can better appreciate the story they were trying to tell. But U8 always seemed like 1 step forward, and quite a few back... maybe Pagan would have been better as a side story like the Worlds of Ultima. Ultima 9 sadly never recovers the series and throws itself into the dumpster along with flaming oils.
I would not say no to someone revisiting U8.
I can understand why, especially for a fan when it was released, it could have been a letdown, but I do honestly think that if you see past the obvious incompleteness and mechanical jank, there really is a good idea for a mainline Ultima game behind it all that continues the thematic trajectory the series had been on.
It's just a shame the game was not given the time it needed, because it could have been seen as another masterpiece had it not ended up so unfinished.
Great review series!
Thank you!
Oh, the second rpg I played in my life. The first one is the bard's tale II.
U8 was very 1st RPG when i was 10 YO, the moment i feel the ambience, i fell in love with it, the "dark feeling" music made me feel eerie, creepy, lonely, helpless.... which attracted me took hours of time to just walk around and explore this strange world with giant mushrooms.
Then, it is so sad that EA cancelled The Lost Vale expansion, by just reading the fan fiction story wasn't enough to fill my hunger tho... how i wish there would be a remake of U8+TLV...
However, i really love their magic systems, where different discipline need to obey while charging/creating foci, the process/rituals which made me feel like "See! i am creating my spell!" Dig this!
Another slightly-little sad thing is, the 2-handed and projectile weapons such as 2-handed sword, crossbow, bows and arrows, halberd (but the guards in Pagan do wielding it) are not included in this game, which is a small lost for me, i always imagine: What if i shoot a sleep arrow to a "immortal NPC" such as Beren, Darion, Mythran and etc....? Twould be interesting....
I love the 1st ten hours or so of U8 but in the end it's pretty terrible.
While I personally did enjoy the game, I can understand that point of view.
Further in the game the unfinished nature of the game is more obvious, and it could be very disappointing.
Great analytical video as always
Thank you!
@@finntrovert Btw how did you manage to pronounce my name almost perfectly (I assume you are US American)? /Daniel Süpke
@@FeanorsCurse I'm glad I did! XD
I'm actually Finnish, and just took my best guess pronunciation.
@@finntrovert Ah I guess "Finntrovert" could have given me a hint ^^. Anyways, looking forward to the next video.
I loved the atmosphere and music of this game. The only other that has come close is arcanum steamworks and magic obscura which is a great open world style. Has anyone found anything else similar that has such a good atmosphere?
Will you be covering online at all. I’ve loved this series
Possibly, but if so it would be a long term project.
After all, the game now has decades of history, and immense amounts of content to go through.
Still aint played it yet, been debating on it! Im still UO'n it tho!
I remember this game being un beatable due to game breaking bugs
I can believe that. I'm not sure if I played the very first version for parts of the video, but it was far less functional than the patched version.
PENULTIMATE...unless...perhaps...you were to play Ultima 9, that is.
Great vid!
Thank you!
Yeah, I liked Ultima 8. It... wasn't a traditional Ultima game, and if I judged it solely on "being a pure Ultima game", it would fare pretty poorly. But as a weird entry to a great series, it had a lot of cool stuff. We don't talk about Ultima 9.
awesome! I'm also fenni HAHAHAH.
Brilliant
I have a few of these games on gog but i havent playedx
Do you make it back to earth?
There's still one game left, where we may find out!
Though, spoiler alert!
It's complicated.
@@finntrovertIt's not complicated. It's... BETRAAAAAAYAL!
This game is so so SO bad, I entirely gave up on Ultima after this abortion.
Snatched "them"? Gfy
Thanks for your feedback!
@@finntrovert You really upset them with this.