I've usually had good success in curing notchy 2nd shift by adjusting gear lever bias springs. Don't know why that works, but seems to work for me 90% of the time. Lately I've also been using bimrose light gear oil, makes an r380 feel like a corolla gearbox!
dont forget the layshaft spins at its own rate governed by the ratio on the input shaft to laygear, there is a speed difference between first gear and second gear there will be more inertia on first gear due to its weight being greater then 2nd gear, however once its uncoupled its free - but if the syncro ring is slow to grip engaging 2nd the dogs will clash - it looks to me that there are marks on the cone face (8:22 in vid) on the old gear this might be enough to upset the cone breaking action. I have also seen "new" baulk rings that that instead of having nice sharp v groves on the friction side the tips of the v's were flat like they had done a lot of work but this does not appear to be so with yours - also oil viscosity can cause trouble
On older trucks, it was necessary to blip the throttle on the upshifts as well, I do this to help my lt77 1st to second shift. It's not 100% successful, but does help.
I got my 1995 300 Tdi 90 11 years ago. I soon discovered that if you tried to change up into second too fast, it crunched. I very quickly learned to be a bit slower and more ‘deliberate’ (if that makes sense) when changing up into second and it does not crunch. If I forget myself, I am always met with a crunch 😂
I am just putting together a follow-up video today - my 3.9 Isuzu with an R380 I built form the cheapest of parts is silky smooth and has been for the last 10 years! Luck of the draw eh?
Wow Mike, you’ve opened up a “Pandora’s gearbox” of comments. 😂 Seems like anything Ashcroft create improves Land Rover gearboxes and drivelines appreciably! Thanks for the video. Very educational.
My R380 fitted to 2006 made Rest of World tdi 300 has trouble going from first to second. The problem has been there from the very first km on what was a brand new Land Rover. In 2023 with 25000 km, the gear selection first to second is identical to how it was on day one. However it is only an issue on the first few selections. After about 5 minutes of driving the problem is no more. To me that suggests the problem relates to oil viscosity. I’ve always thought that there is inadequate oil access to some part near synchros. I’m curious to see if the larger channels on the Ashcroft part solves the issue.
@@BritannicaRestorations Is the issue with the oil that it CAN NOT be squeezed away from the coned surfaces when it is cold/thick? Hence the wider cut-outs in some of the improved synchro rings.
U started going on about mass of the gears etc... I not sure if this is similar. But I find if I'm loading it hard from first to second.. Gears mot to great but say I get into first get up to hear change... Somewhat hover and float at same speed. Letting the load reduce so to speak... Its smooth a silk
@@BritannicaRestorations i m happy to lurn that i m not thé only one to have this pb, first, i was thinking that gear lever gaiter that creased and prevented the gear lever from reaching the correct second position.
i think the brass cone in the synchro ring wears on the taper over time on the 1-2 shift and always wears faster with older unchanged oil. This action wont allow the gear teeth to slow fast enough to catch the gearchange. I think you mentioned this in passing when you were discussing the gap.
PSA: If any of you have a 2000 or later 4.0 V8 equipped Land Rover and are looking to seal the bottom end of the engine, the Fel-Pro gasket kit CS 26436 advertised to fit this engine _IS NOT THE CORRECT KIT._ Only the included rear main seal, water pump seal, and one o-ring from this kit fit the 2000 and newer 4.0 engines with the cast aluminum oil pan. Fel=Pro does not sell a kit for this engine. You will have to source the gaskets individually. Ask me how I know. 8:13 They're not identical. Look at the leading edge of actual gear teeth. The one in your left hand (right side of the screen) has beveled edges while the other does not. Not the synchro teeth, the gear teeth themselves. Not that it matters as far as shifting goes. Anyway, early jeeps with the Spicer T-90 also has 2nd gear issues. The most common issue is "popping out" of second gear on deceleration or downhill no throttle situations. _Usually_ the issue is worn synchros and/or second gear has worn synchro teeth or bushing. A worn bushing allows the gear to 'cock over' on the shaft and helps it push the synchro sleeve off the gear. In rebuilding the T90, one issue is that the factory service manuals don't make any mention of output shaft end-play. If there's too much, the trans will pop out of second on deceleration. If there's not enough end play, it will be difficult to shift into second and third. Another issue that causes problems is crap quality replacement parts. The first replacement sunchro assembly I installed in the T90 in my 48 Willys CJ2A was horrid. After running it for about a month I tore it down again and found that the synchro rings themselves were horribly out of round - by almost a full 0.010 inches. Further, the first aftermarket synchro assembly I bought was almost impossible to shift by hand. The replacement was only mildly better, and I _still_ have issues shifting the trans 1-2 and 3-2. I bring all this up because it _might_ be related to the issues you're seeing. I honestly don't know. I expect that if there's any lateral play on the assembled mainshaft/output shaft in the assembled transmission, then you're going to have problems. I hope you get this sorted out and can explain to the community what causes the problem and how to fix it. My wife has a Disco II and has been contemplating swapping in a manual transmission. Guess who gets to sort all this out... :D Anyway, thanks for another great video! Interesting to learn that Britpart isn't the be-all end-all of parts. We're having a hard time sourcing some parts for the Wife's 2000 Disco II and we've been buying them from Atlantic British. If you have a better source for parts, I'm all ears.
If you want to fit a manual transmission to the D2 you will have to source a D2 manual flywheel as the reluctor ring is machined into the back - not the same as a D1 or RR V8
Hi Mike, I have a 3500SE SD1 with around 42,000miles on it (alongside many LT77 and R380 LR 'boxes) and I have found the oil-grade is the biggest factor in shift-quality. The default position is to use an ATF, and I tend to use Fuchs Dexron_II across all of my Rover/LR 5-speeds, simply because it fits most of them the best i.e. the shift-quality across all the gears is adequate. Something I found back in the 1990's when fitting LT77's into Rover P6B's (usually replacing totally shot BW35 auto-boxes) was that the shift-lever position relative to the driving seat was a big factor in smooth changes through to 2nd; it's an awkward place on the "back, left" of the pattern, and getting a good ergonomic on the shift-lever was of paramount importance to the feel of the (now modified) car. It has struck me that this could be a part of the problem also with the Defender R380, as the shift-lever is not great ergonomically; I have always set my lever round quite acutely on its splines towards the driver/steering-wheel on my 110CSW 300Tdi, and it still feels great (well, it used to until I pulled it all apart to restore at the moment.....) on a hard-used-for-towing150k R380 'box. This means the lever falls much more to hand, and in RHD format, 2nd gear is both closer to the driver, but also further forward towards the dash than it would have been from the factory. The trick seems to be, find a good R380, look after it and service it with fresh oil every 20,000 miles, don't break it so that you have to replace parts for pattern-items....!
Can't add much only my Defender 200Tdi will not engage second for maybe a mile. Almost as if the oil needs to heat up. The larger oil channels is interesting. As you have said, only second gear.
It’s a puzzle, mine can be smooth or graunchy, depending on if it’s been sitting a while & cold but can happen when hot too. Not the only gearbox to do it though, 2nd gear in my Honda Civic is always notchy first change up, thereafter it’s ok.
Ay UP ! hi Mike been watchin an i am still wonderin bout this 2nd gear trouble ?? in all the old vans tractors n wagons . when a box is behavin like this gear box box is gettin warr ! YOUR A STAR LAD !!!!!!!!!!
In the 2wd world, 2nd gear was the gear that always gave out first, a scraping change, but this was LT77s. The R380 came after SD1 and TR7 and 8 production had ended. I remember the hype about how much better the 77s was, and how R380s were great, personally, having had all of them, over many years, I would say there not any difference, it's a lovely box, until it's worn out, just like any other.
Hey mike i remember watching a vid on scynchros from a gent on you tube. He rebuilds munzies boxes or something. He had allways checked finish on the gear where synchro runs. Issues were when the gears were cut they were left cut rough as they dragged the cutting tool backwards and the synchros had trouble locking on. the coned area
Breaking news Ashcroft are making prototype bulkrings with a special coating. I have just fitted them in my r380. It is silky smooth on gear changes now
@@BritannicaRestorations hi Mike I don't think there on the website yet as they are prototype But if you contact David Ashcroft or one of the team they will help you out. They charged me £35 for a complete set. The only one's which are coated are 1,2,3,and 4 . I now have a very smooth gear shift.
The synchro clutch/break has to spin the layshaft up to speed via the gearing ratio. I think the speed of changing gear is too fast for the spinning up stage for first to second etc. So probably a slower shift is required.( thicker oil?) the synchro rings are the same size so first/second is at a disadvantage compared to 2/3 etc as you are spinning up using a larger gear ratio big gear to small for first, medium to medium for 2nd etc... or perhaps im waffling... 😮
@@BritannicaRestorations The layshaft speed is being changed ( via the syncro clutch) by the turning output shaft from the wheels. the synchro clutch drives the gear to speed up/slow down the layshaft, when they are at the same speed the full change can take place.. from first to second you have a large gear (from the wheels) turning a small gear on the layshaft (this takes a lot more time to change the momentum of the layshaft), from 2nd to 3rd etc you have a much smaller gear (from the wheels) driving the layshaft up/down to speed. The syncro clutch has to spin up or slow down the entire layshaft including the input shaft and main clutch, but in first to second the driving gear from the wheels which is being spun up/ slowed down by the syncro clutch lakes a while to make the change of speed happen. The other gears are much smaller and can make the change easier. like bicycle gears, big sprocket on the front driving small gear on back is difficult, whereas small sprocket on front is easy to drive large on back. just imagine the pedals are attached to the driving wheels, and the rear sprocket is the layshaft. and instead of a nice chain you have a brass clutch syncro. Ive heard the layshaft speeding up and slowing down on an LT77 when slowly moving the gearstick, if the syncro is too worn or the oil not viscous enough the syncro soes not work as well.
My RRC R380 has the same issue, though a brief pause in neutral during the change up seems to stop it. It’s markedly worse when warmed up. The car is going through full restoration at the moment. The gear box is out of the vehicle and is going to be rebuilt partly for this and partly because exit has done 220,000 miles anyway. I have them adding an oil cooler with all the Gen parts (including a thermostatic adaptor that I think I may have sourced from you). They will use the Ashcroft R380 kit that I bought a decade ago - I hope it has these decent rings; I mentioned my concerns to their mechanics and asked them to have a close look at the rings because I have heard of many aftermarket rings having D shaped rather than > shaped teeth. I’m really glad you did this video now - I’ll be forwarding it to them and asking them to take a look at the synchro for burrs too. On a different vein entirely, I rewatched some of your videos about replacing key barrels on Defenders. I have two earlier Defender push button front doors (1990ish) and a similar age Defender rear door on my SIII, so it has three keys (ign, front doors, rear door). Damned nuisance! SP do a kit with an ign barrel and four identical locks (including fuel cap) to mod Defenders to use just one key, but given how the rear door always used such a small key compared to the front doors and ign, I’m not sure the kit will fit, despite its explicit marketing for just this purpose. Any idea if the lock barrels are the same on early front and rear Defender doors, Mike (16mm pre-2002 type)?
Will be watching these video's with interest, as I've noticed a slight issue with 2nd gear in my D2. As a wild stab, I'd say it's something to do with oil flow. My D2 is perfect for 10 months of the year but when it first starts up in sub-zero weather I have to be careful changing from 1st to 2nd. I'd guess the cold oil doesn't quite get to somewhere that it needs to get to.
Yes you are right when the oil is cold - on the LT77 if you put gear oil in the gearbox - you can quickly strip the teeth off the Tuffnol gears in the oil pump - too thick Even in my 3.9 Isuzu and the R380 I am using ATF with no issues at all, hot or cold - funny eh?
@@BritannicaRestorations Now you mention it, I had a TR7 with an LT77 in it and whatever source of reference I was using specified ATF for it and a lot of smart people told me that must be a mistake... but I ran it with ATF in it and it was always smooth and reliable... which is more than can be said for the Dolomite Sprint engine attached to it.
I'm wondering if, like you say, the transmission wind up can be part of the cause. 1st gear exerts the most force into the system. Maybe see if a pause between 1st and second helps? Or good old series double declutch? That way you'll know if the syncro is part of the problem.. Great to watch and join in the puzzle!!
I found on my R380 that a very brief pause in neutral on the way up to 2nd stopped it, half a second was enough. Didn’t need to double declutch. It is still a fault, though. The box is being rebuilt and I’m adding an oil cooler as it seems more prone to the crunch when warmed up.
And this is one of the things really, really bugging me! I rebuilt my R380 with Timkin bearings and all the rest Britpart stuff - 3.9 Isuzu engine in charge Sweet as a nut - silky changes all the way - even in mid-winter Oil is Dex3 Have towed 110's on a car trailer for 8 hours and not a squeak out of the box Maybe I should have it stuffed...
I guess like other people commented maybe gearbox was in fact designed for the sleepy farmers? Therefore shift gear very slowly without any urgency of people behind them? Maybe that if why I have not noticed? To be honestly, I have never driven so called a perfect brand new spec Defender so I do`nt know what to expect to be normal. I will check next time I drive him. Thanks for the educational video!
I had the same problem but my wife didn't. She never had problems shifting the Landy to 2nd when cold. I changed the oil I use and I felt a difference. These days I don't feel it anymore, so either the oil helped or how I shift gears changed. Thanks again for the great video Mike.
Long shot, could uneven wear on the selector fork be tipping the synchro hub and causing it to baulk slightly ? Similar to how series reverse gear selector forks wear...
I do check them - however I have just looked and there is wear on the 2nd side! It was not until I found a Used fork with hardly any wear that I noticed! The book no longer gives any measurements
@@BritannicaRestorations Hopefully that'll take care of it! Years of drivers either resting their hand on the lever or forcing gearchanges has always made me take a closer look at selectors, although nowadays I rarely get involved with them unless it's my own. Love the vids by the way!
The fork had wear on the 2nd side, as I found a good used spare in a box to measure There are no measurements given in the manual - just 'look for wear! ' I did mention in the video about the gear stick used as an arm rest!
Don't forget it can be other issues too..Shift Forks Bent / Worn or other parts that are in the Shifting Mechanism ... can be many reasons including poor design... but usually that shift 1st to 2nd is most abused for obvious reasons....Slower speed at shift and torque and drag ....lots of simple reasons..including minor wear from bad shifting....
I believe in 2wd LT77 is also prone to notchy shifts 1st to second. I rebuilt the LT77 in my TR8 (while its a 2wd box i found your videos an extremely helpful resource) Even after a rebuild i find 2nd gear is notchy and you have to take changes slowly , especially when cold. Once it warms up it's performs much better. In the 2wd world there is much debate over what is the best oil to use as even the factory changed from specifying gear oil to using Automatic transmission fluid reportedly because the shifts were very heavy. So far I think I've tried all the ones people generally recommend and found penzoil synchromesh has worked the best although MTL Redline is similar , but its still not brilliant 1st to 2nd (but oddly fine once the box is warm) This relief of symptoms when the box warms up makes me wonder if the issue is related to oil viscosity or if it is due to clearances change as parts expand. But short answer, 2nd gear is a common issue on LT77 2WD boxes
Dave I was going to write a similar reply as you, but no need now. I have a rebuilt LT77 in my 1992 Xmod Defender that has just over 90T km. Like you when it's cold it makes awful noises when shifting between 1st / 2nd which I had to adapt my shifting to short shifting between those two gears when the transmission is cold. Then as it warms up I can shift normally again without any isses between those gears. I'd love to get to the root of this problem and sort it out once a far all. I've also changed to different oils but no real solution yet therefore when back to standard ATF........... Mike, do you have any input?
To add to this, it's worth noting that certainly in my TR8 the 2nd gear synchro ring was actually different. This is also identified in the manual i have for the 2wd box. The original synchro ring on second is often marked with green paint. The difference is the width of the square notch on the side, on 2nd it is slightly wider, this was to help 2nd gear shifts I believe but these days all the rings you get are the same.. This is highlited in the original dealer service training manual for the 2wd.
One more thing is that both my TR8 and the original BL LT77 manual say that the when assembling the 1st / 2nd Synchro "It is important that lst/2nd synchro is assembled correctly (short splines on inner member) towards 2nd gear. Note:Long splines are notched" The accompanying diagrams though often shows the short splines pointing towards 1st gear, the opposite of the accompanying text.. When I took the TR8 box apart I lost the orientation of that middle piece so ended up putting it in the way the text in the manual said and not the way the accompanying diagram said. I wonder which way is actually correct, I assume the text? For some its possible a box has been assembled with that in the other way around, that might account for some 1st/issues.
The 1/2 synchro is marked on the outer ring with 1 notch and the inner part is clearly stamped to 'place 2nd gear' This is why I always cut a tiny notch in the hubs before disassembly - old hubs seem to grow together
@@BritannicaRestorationsi Mike, on the 2 , 2wd drive boxes I have pulled apart (both suffix C boxes) unfortunately there is no wording stamped on the inner member , but thanks for comment as that supports the text in the manuals is correct and the diagram showing it the other way around is a misprint. On the second box I took apart I did exactly the same as you suggested in the video and used a dremmel tool to cut a small matching mark across the two pieces in a position that was not a wearing or mating face. That way I wouldn't lose the orientation when putting it through my sonic cleaner. As a comment regarding selector rods. I replaced all tye synchros and the 1/2 selector fork with a new one on my re build but 1 ro 2 is still notchy when cold.
I have no experience with these gearboxes, however I changed a gearbox in one of my cars from the stock 4 speed to a 5 speed. The 1st-2nd shift was aways a bit like you describe for the first few minutes of driving and then it would be fine all day. The issue was apparently down to the oil viscosity, I had always used EP90 or similar but the 5 speed wanted ATF. I wonder if it is worth trying in your case? Doing a quick search the Landrover gearboxes use a variety of lubricants. 20-50, EP90, ATF... some of the choices seem a bit random...I think many modern gearboxes use ATF to reduce viscous losses... I think it might be worth trying.
Hi Mike, I have rebuilt a few transmissions, also using Ashcroft parts, and have found that the transmissions work perfectly but do not shift as nicely as my original 1997 R380 which I have never opened for 260,000 miles. It can be switched absolutely buttery smooth. No comparison to others.
Have a look at this video ruclips.net/video/uSkjnY7-gEw/видео.html This box had very bad changes - the oil had never been changed = 3 flushes later was like new - regular ATF Done this several times now and completely changed the gear changing
One thing that occurred to me is that most of the hard driving/shifting is done into and out of 2nd gear. This may lead to premature wear of the synchros and it's respective surfaces. The gear itself typically isn't wore out when '2nd gear' gets clunky. Does that make sense?
Yes it does, but as I mentioned, if you have not seen a gear or hub brand new, how can you compare? The shop manual shows the selector teeth in a drawing that are good or bad
Hi Mike, I have a Richards V8 110 chassis. I am putting in a Thor V8 from a Range Rover with an R380 gearbox (Ashcroft rebuilt), Discovery V8 bel housing and 1.2 ratio transfer case. The problem I am having is which gearbox mounting brackets do I need? As the gearbox and transfer are sitting about an inch too far forward for the old R380 brackets. Lincoln
Hmm, I was taught always fit the transfer and gearbox mounts first - then work forwards - keeps the props the right length and the shift lever in the correct place If you have an R380 and LT230, then the original ANR3713 crossmember should bolt in, but because this is a Heinz job, you may have to change the engine mounts on the engine itself. Hard to say without seeing it
Big couts out on syncro is for fast oil evacuation to Slow gear down for easier engagement. Why only in second gear? Because of big difference in ratio between first and second gear..
I think the FINAL drive ratios don't help Mike, in a normal car (or a lightly loaded 90) you would never need to get the revs up high to make a shift from 1st to 2nd, but the heavy 110 (fairly low geared) needs a fair bit more RPM input. This means the syncro is doing way more work to slow gears down for the correct mesh alignment. Providing its not causing damage, I think its just 'one of those things' Or start off in 2nd😁
My 130 with the big Isuzu engine in it, is heavier than a 110 and even pulling a car trailer with a 110 on the back was not an issue in any gear - strange
Coming from the 'graunch 'til it gives' school, of '77/230's - the concept of rebuilding a gearbox because there's just a slight 'notch' into 2nd, makes me feel ashamed. I'll add 'rebuild gearbox' to the whiteboard. I might as well attempt to experience smooth gearchanges for once in my life 😁👍
@@BritannicaRestorations Well, I have an R380 knocking about I've wanted to drop behind my 200tdi for a while, so you've shamed me into actually doing the recon - cheers 😁👍
Hi Mike, perhaps try putting some bluing compound on the cone and gently turning the bulk ring on it and see if the grooves are all making even contact across the face of the gear cone, also consider the mass of the clutch plate, input shaft, layshaft and the second gear itself plus the 1st and 3rd gears (not much you can do about that I know) but the synchro ring has to work hard to adjust the previous to the right speed to get a smooth gear change, there are also implications for the clutch plate dragging on the flywheel when the clutch pedal is depressed, my personal preference is to completely clean and dry input shaft splines and apply some graphite powder to the splines before I refit a gear box, grease accumulates friction dust and gets hard and claggy, binding on splines etc...
I do not think it has anything to do with the clutch for the simple reason my 3.9 Isuzu engine has an R230 I built from Britpart bits Smooth as silk for all gears, and the Isuzu has a massive clutch fitted from the original engine been running for over 10 years
Just 2 weeks ago installed my completely rebuilt R380 and transfer box with 2k of new parts from Ashcroft. It feels lovely compared to how it was, that's for sure. I drove my friends Nissan x-trail which had a gearbox that just 'snicked' into place no matter the revs. I am that sad old man with gearbox envy!!
Akio Toyoda = “Let's make ever-better cars” Land Rover = "Let's make them more complicated, so they are dealer only for repairs, using low quality parts that will just scrape through warranty - oh and don't make them in the UK, but give the impression they are British"
@@BritannicaRestorations Oh man, that is a jaundiced point of view, and a justified one, but I will say that at least we can afford the prices of the spare parts (don't say it!!) whereas the Toyota parts are eye-wateringly expensive...even if you don't need to use them as often!!
That is the problem with Land Rover though - parts from the dealer are very expensive even if they have them! Try getting Tdi parts from a dealer! So the after market manufactures pick up on this, and we complain that cheap parts fail However, at least we can get the parts to keep vehicles running
My defender lost 1-2 synchro after 10,000km double up and back down no problem 91 models and my brother li law just rebuild the box after who knows how many k's in over 30yrs.
I've usually had good success in curing notchy 2nd shift by adjusting gear lever bias springs. Don't know why that works, but seems to work for me 90% of the time. Lately I've also been using bimrose light gear oil, makes an r380 feel like a corolla gearbox!
Interesting!
dont forget the layshaft spins at its own rate governed by the ratio on the input shaft to laygear, there is a speed difference between first gear and second gear there will be more inertia on first gear due to its weight being greater then 2nd gear, however once its uncoupled its free - but if the syncro ring is slow to grip engaging 2nd the dogs will clash - it looks to me that there are marks on the cone face (8:22 in vid) on the old gear this might be enough to upset the cone breaking action. I have also seen "new" baulk rings that that instead of having nice sharp v groves on the friction side the tips of the v's were flat like they had done a lot of work but this does not appear to be so with yours - also oil viscosity can cause trouble
On older trucks, it was necessary to blip the throttle on the upshifts as well, I do this to help my lt77 1st to second shift. It's not 100% successful, but does help.
I got my 1995 300 Tdi 90 11 years ago. I soon discovered that if you tried to change up into second too fast, it crunched. I very quickly learned to be a bit slower and more ‘deliberate’ (if that makes sense) when changing up into second and it does not crunch. If I forget myself, I am always met with a crunch 😂
I am just putting together a follow-up video today - my 3.9 Isuzu with an R380 I built form the cheapest of parts is silky smooth and has been for the last 10 years!
Luck of the draw eh?
I have noticed that myslef even with a newly built R380 L suffix, I need to be slow betwene 1st and 2nd so it will not crunch.
Wow Mike, you’ve opened up a “Pandora’s gearbox” of comments. 😂
Seems like anything Ashcroft create improves Land Rover gearboxes and drivelines appreciably!
Thanks for the video.
Very educational.
We shall see
I was taught when doing vw gear boxes we would heat up the cinkros let them cool and lap them in l do that to Landrover to works good
Thanks!
You bet!
My R380 fitted to 2006 made Rest of World tdi 300 has trouble going from first to second. The problem has been there from the very first km on what was a brand new Land Rover. In 2023 with 25000 km, the gear selection first to second is identical to how it was on day one. However it is only an issue on the first few selections. After about 5 minutes of driving the problem is no more. To me that suggests the problem relates to oil viscosity. I’ve always thought that there is inadequate oil access to some part near synchros. I’m curious to see if the larger channels on the Ashcroft part solves the issue.
Meant to add: I double-de-clutch first to second when cold and that helps.
As the main shaft is hollow and oil is pumped into the gears, I would have thought there would be enough splash flow to the hubs
@@BritannicaRestorations Is the issue with the oil that it CAN NOT be squeezed away from the coned surfaces when it is cold/thick? Hence the wider cut-outs in some of the improved synchro rings.
U started going on about mass of the gears etc... I not sure if this is similar. But I find if I'm loading it hard from first to second.. Gears mot to great but say I get into first get up to hear change... Somewhat hover and float at same speed. Letting the load reduce so to speak... Its smooth a silk
Same pb with mine, smooth gear changing is ok, but "too" quick change from 1st to 2cd = scewch
Yes it was not really that bad when I removed it - but I was curious and wondered what was the cause, and would it get worse?
@@BritannicaRestorations i m happy to lurn that i m not thé only one to have this pb, first, i was thinking that gear lever gaiter that creased and prevented the gear lever from reaching the correct second position.
i think the brass cone in the synchro ring wears on the taper over time on the 1-2 shift and always wears faster with older unchanged oil. This action wont allow the gear teeth to slow fast enough to catch the gearchange. I think you mentioned this in passing when you were discussing the gap.
PSA:
If any of you have a 2000 or later 4.0 V8 equipped Land Rover and are looking to seal the bottom end of the engine, the Fel-Pro gasket kit CS 26436 advertised to fit this engine _IS NOT THE CORRECT KIT._ Only the included rear main seal, water pump seal, and one o-ring from this kit fit the 2000 and newer 4.0 engines with the cast aluminum oil pan. Fel=Pro does not sell a kit for this engine. You will have to source the gaskets individually. Ask me how I know.
8:13 They're not identical. Look at the leading edge of actual gear teeth. The one in your left hand (right side of the screen) has beveled edges while the other does not. Not the synchro teeth, the gear teeth themselves. Not that it matters as far as shifting goes.
Anyway, early jeeps with the Spicer T-90 also has 2nd gear issues. The most common issue is "popping out" of second gear on deceleration or downhill no throttle situations. _Usually_ the issue is worn synchros and/or second gear has worn synchro teeth or bushing. A worn bushing allows the gear to 'cock over' on the shaft and helps it push the synchro sleeve off the gear.
In rebuilding the T90, one issue is that the factory service manuals don't make any mention of output shaft end-play. If there's too much, the trans will pop out of second on deceleration. If there's not enough end play, it will be difficult to shift into second and third.
Another issue that causes problems is crap quality replacement parts. The first replacement sunchro assembly I installed in the T90 in my 48 Willys CJ2A was horrid. After running it for about a month I tore it down again and found that the synchro rings themselves were horribly out of round - by almost a full 0.010 inches. Further, the first aftermarket synchro assembly I bought was almost impossible to shift by hand. The replacement was only mildly better, and I _still_ have issues shifting the trans 1-2 and 3-2.
I bring all this up because it _might_ be related to the issues you're seeing. I honestly don't know. I expect that if there's any lateral play on the assembled mainshaft/output shaft in the assembled transmission, then you're going to have problems.
I hope you get this sorted out and can explain to the community what causes the problem and how to fix it. My wife has a Disco II and has been contemplating swapping in a manual transmission. Guess who gets to sort all this out... :D
Anyway, thanks for another great video! Interesting to learn that Britpart isn't the be-all end-all of parts. We're having a hard time sourcing some parts for the Wife's 2000 Disco II and we've been buying them from Atlantic British. If you have a better source for parts, I'm all ears.
If you want to fit a manual transmission to the D2 you will have to source a D2 manual flywheel as the reluctor ring is machined into the back - not the same as a D1 or RR V8
@@BritannicaRestorations good to know, thanks!
Hi Mike, I have a 3500SE SD1 with around 42,000miles on it (alongside many LT77 and R380 LR 'boxes) and I have found the oil-grade is the biggest factor in shift-quality. The default position is to use an ATF, and I tend to use Fuchs Dexron_II across all of my Rover/LR 5-speeds, simply because it fits most of them the best i.e. the shift-quality across all the gears is adequate. Something I found back in the 1990's when fitting LT77's into Rover P6B's (usually replacing totally shot BW35 auto-boxes) was that the shift-lever position relative to the driving seat was a big factor in smooth changes through to 2nd; it's an awkward place on the "back, left" of the pattern, and getting a good ergonomic on the shift-lever was of paramount importance to the feel of the (now modified) car.
It has struck me that this could be a part of the problem also with the Defender R380, as the shift-lever is not great ergonomically; I have always set my lever round quite acutely on its splines towards the driver/steering-wheel on my 110CSW 300Tdi, and it still feels great (well, it used to until I pulled it all apart to restore at the moment.....) on a hard-used-for-towing150k R380 'box. This means the lever falls much more to hand, and in RHD format, 2nd gear is both closer to the driver, but also further forward towards the dash than it would have been from the factory.
The trick seems to be, find a good R380, look after it and service it with fresh oil every 20,000 miles, don't break it so that you have to replace parts for pattern-items....!
The lever is in a good place for LHD
Can't add much only my Defender 200Tdi will not engage second for maybe a mile. Almost as if the oil needs to heat up. The larger oil channels is interesting. As you have said, only second gear.
It’s a puzzle, mine can be smooth or graunchy, depending on if it’s been sitting a while & cold but can happen when hot too. Not the only gearbox to do it though, 2nd gear in my Honda Civic is always notchy first change up, thereafter it’s ok.
Ay UP ! hi Mike been watchin an i am still wonderin bout this 2nd gear trouble ?? in all the old vans tractors n wagons . when a box is behavin like this gear box box is gettin warr ! YOUR A STAR LAD !!!!!!!!!!
In the 2wd world, 2nd gear was the gear that always gave out first, a scraping change, but this was LT77s. The R380 came after SD1 and TR7 and 8 production had ended. I remember the hype about how much better the 77s was, and how R380s were great, personally, having had all of them, over many years, I would say there not any difference, it's a lovely box, until it's worn out, just like any other.
I agree I cannot see any major differences apart from bigger bearings and more springs in the selector rod
Hey mike i remember watching a vid on scynchros from a gent on you tube. He rebuilds munzies boxes or something. He had allways checked finish on the gear where synchro runs. Issues were when the gears were cut they were left cut rough as they dragged the cutting tool backwards and the synchros had trouble locking on.
the coned area
Could be...
Breaking news Ashcroft are making prototype bulkrings with a special coating. I have just fitted them in my r380. It is silky smooth on gear changes now
Link please!
@@BritannicaRestorations hi Mike I don't think there on the website yet as they are prototype But if you contact David Ashcroft or one of the team they will help you out. They charged me £35 for a complete set. The only one's which are coated are 1,2,3,and 4 . I now have a very smooth gear shift.
Dave must have been on the meths again, as they are £15 each as STD!
@@BritannicaRestorations I bought a rebuild kit and the swapped out the bulkrings and charged me £35 extra
Now you are talking!
My Disco 2 only has the notch in winter time when cold in the summer it’s perfect
Could be the oil in this case
The synchro clutch/break has to spin the layshaft up to speed via the gearing ratio. I think the speed of changing gear is too fast for the spinning up stage for first to second etc. So probably a slower shift is required.( thicker oil?) the synchro rings are the same size so first/second is at a disadvantage compared to 2/3 etc as you are spinning up using a larger gear ratio big gear to small for first, medium to medium for 2nd etc... or perhaps im waffling... 😮
Well using that logic, why is it not a problem from 2nd to 3rd
@@BritannicaRestorations The layshaft speed is being changed ( via the syncro clutch) by the turning output shaft from the wheels. the synchro clutch drives the gear to speed up/slow down the layshaft, when they are at the same speed the full change can take place.. from first to second you have a large gear (from the wheels) turning a small gear on the layshaft (this takes a lot more time to change the momentum of the layshaft), from 2nd to 3rd etc you have a much smaller gear (from the wheels) driving the layshaft up/down to speed.
The syncro clutch has to spin up or slow down the entire layshaft including the input shaft and main clutch, but in first to second the driving gear from the wheels which is being spun up/ slowed down by the syncro clutch lakes a while to make the change of speed happen. The other gears are much smaller and can make the change easier.
like bicycle gears, big sprocket on the front driving small gear on back is difficult, whereas small sprocket on front is easy to drive large on back. just imagine the pedals are attached to the driving wheels, and the rear sprocket is the layshaft. and instead of a nice chain you have a brass clutch syncro.
Ive heard the layshaft speeding up and slowing down on an LT77 when slowly moving the gearstick, if the syncro is too worn or the oil not viscous enough the syncro soes not work as well.
My RRC R380 has the same issue, though a brief pause in neutral during the change up seems to stop it. It’s markedly worse when warmed up. The car is going through full restoration at the moment. The gear box is out of the vehicle and is going to be rebuilt partly for this and partly because exit has done 220,000 miles anyway. I have them adding an oil cooler with all the Gen parts (including a thermostatic adaptor that I think I may have sourced from you). They will use the Ashcroft R380 kit that I bought a decade ago - I hope it has these decent rings; I mentioned my concerns to their mechanics and asked them to have a close look at the rings because I have heard of many aftermarket rings having D shaped rather than > shaped teeth.
I’m really glad you did this video now - I’ll be forwarding it to them and asking them to take a look at the synchro for burrs too.
On a different vein entirely, I rewatched some of your videos about replacing key barrels on Defenders. I have two earlier Defender push button front doors (1990ish) and a similar age Defender rear door on my SIII, so it has three keys (ign, front doors, rear door). Damned nuisance! SP do a kit with an ign barrel and four identical locks (including fuel cap) to mod Defenders to use just one key, but given how the rear door always used such a small key compared to the front doors and ign, I’m not sure the kit will fit, despite its explicit marketing for just this purpose. Any idea if the lock barrels are the same on early front and rear Defender doors, Mike (16mm pre-2002 type)?
MTC6506 is a kit with 5 barrels all the same, but not an ignition barrel - they are a bit naughty to fit...
Will be watching these video's with interest, as I've noticed a slight issue with 2nd gear in my D2.
As a wild stab, I'd say it's something to do with oil flow.
My D2 is perfect for 10 months of the year but when it first starts up in sub-zero weather I have to be careful changing from 1st to 2nd.
I'd guess the cold oil doesn't quite get to somewhere that it needs to get to.
Yes you are right when the oil is cold - on the LT77 if you put gear oil in the gearbox - you can quickly strip the teeth off the Tuffnol gears in the oil pump - too thick
Even in my 3.9 Isuzu and the R380 I am using ATF with no issues at all, hot or cold - funny eh?
@@BritannicaRestorations Now you mention it, I had a TR7 with an LT77 in it and whatever source of reference I was using specified ATF for it and a lot of smart people told me that must be a mistake... but I ran it with ATF in it and it was always smooth and reliable... which is more than can be said for the Dolomite Sprint engine attached to it.
Hi MIke, I have an avid landy and commercial gearbox pal over here in good old blighty, worn slipper pads caused by oil leaking and no maint
Good stuff
Was the 2 wheel drive a lt77s and a rubber drive donut ? Some times sdi did not go in 1st it was the weight anb momentum of the clutch plate.
Could be
Mine had that and was found to have a cracked synchro ring. Submitted before watching this video.
I'm wondering if, like you say, the transmission wind up can be part of the cause. 1st gear exerts the most force into the system. Maybe see if a pause between 1st and second helps? Or good old series double declutch? That way you'll know if the syncro is part of the problem..
Great to watch and join in the puzzle!!
Yes even Ashcroft's suggest a pause!
I second this. I have double clutch/paused and does feel somewhat better.
I found on my R380 that a very brief pause in neutral on the way up to 2nd stopped it, half a second was enough. Didn’t need to double declutch. It is still a fault, though. The box is being rebuilt and I’m adding an oil cooler as it seems more prone to the crunch when warmed up.
And this is one of the things really, really bugging me!
I rebuilt my R380 with Timkin bearings and all the rest Britpart stuff - 3.9 Isuzu engine in charge
Sweet as a nut - silky changes all the way - even in mid-winter
Oil is Dex3
Have towed 110's on a car trailer for 8 hours and not a squeak out of the box
Maybe I should have it stuffed...
I see Britpart are expanding, now have a unit in Newtown, Powys.... About 20 miles from their Craven Arms depot..
They have no competition now
I guess like other people commented maybe gearbox was in fact designed for the sleepy farmers? Therefore shift gear very slowly without any urgency of people behind them? Maybe that if why I have not noticed? To be honestly, I have never driven so called a perfect brand new spec Defender so I do`nt know what to expect to be normal. I will check next time I drive him. Thanks for the educational video!
Some MT82 have also such crunching from 1st to 2nd, whereas others do not.
I had the same problem but my wife didn't.
She never had problems shifting the Landy to 2nd when cold.
I changed the oil I use and I felt a difference. These days I don't feel it anymore, so either the oil helped or how I shift gears changed.
Thanks again for the great video Mike.
Thanks for sharing
Along with the second gear. I find reverse really hard to get sometimes too?
@@johncolley3317 pretty much what I do. Ment to have a ashcroft box in mine
Long shot, could uneven wear on the selector fork be tipping the synchro hub and causing it to baulk slightly ? Similar to how series reverse gear selector forks wear...
But you would think the first would be bad too?
@@BritannicaRestorations Not necessarily, the fork pushes both ways, must be worth a look anyway...
I do check them - however I have just looked and there is wear on the 2nd side!
It was not until I found a Used fork with hardly any wear that I noticed!
The book no longer gives any measurements
@@BritannicaRestorations Hopefully that'll take care of it! Years of drivers either resting their hand on the lever or forcing gearchanges has always made me take a closer look at selectors, although nowadays I rarely get involved with them unless it's my own. Love the vids by the way!
The fork had wear on the 2nd side, as I found a good used spare in a box to measure
There are no measurements given in the manual - just 'look for wear! '
I did mention in the video about the gear stick used as an arm rest!
Don't forget it can be other issues too..Shift Forks Bent / Worn or other parts that are in the Shifting Mechanism ... can be many reasons including poor design... but usually that shift 1st to 2nd is most abused for obvious reasons....Slower speed at shift and torque and drag ....lots of simple reasons..including minor wear from bad shifting....
Yes, I think I am onto something!
I believe in 2wd LT77 is also prone to notchy shifts 1st to second. I rebuilt the LT77 in my TR8 (while its a 2wd box i found your videos an extremely helpful resource) Even after a rebuild i find 2nd gear is notchy and you have to take changes slowly , especially when cold. Once it warms up it's performs much better. In the 2wd world there is much debate over what is the best oil to use as even the factory changed from specifying gear oil to using Automatic transmission fluid reportedly because the shifts were very heavy. So far I think I've tried all the ones people generally recommend and found penzoil synchromesh has worked the best although MTL Redline is similar , but its still not brilliant 1st to 2nd (but oddly fine once the box is warm)
This relief of symptoms when the box warms up makes me wonder if the issue is related to oil viscosity or if it is due to clearances change as parts expand.
But short answer, 2nd gear is a common issue on LT77 2WD boxes
Dave I was going to write a similar reply as you, but no need now. I have a rebuilt LT77 in my 1992 Xmod Defender that has just over 90T km. Like you when it's cold it makes awful noises when shifting between 1st / 2nd which I had to adapt my shifting to short shifting between those two gears when the transmission is cold. Then as it warms up I can shift normally again without any isses between those gears. I'd love to get to the root of this problem and sort it out once a far all. I've also changed to different oils but no real solution yet therefore when back to standard ATF........... Mike, do you have any input?
To add to this, it's worth noting that certainly in my TR8 the 2nd gear synchro ring was actually different. This is also identified in the manual i have for the 2wd box. The original synchro ring on second is often marked with green paint. The difference is the width of the square notch on the side, on 2nd it is slightly wider, this was to help 2nd gear shifts I believe but these days all the rings you get are the same.. This is highlited in the original dealer service training manual for the 2wd.
One more thing is that both my TR8 and the original BL LT77 manual say that the when assembling the 1st / 2nd Synchro "It is important that lst/2nd synchro is assembled correctly (short splines on inner member) towards 2nd gear. Note:Long splines are notched"
The accompanying diagrams though often shows the short splines pointing towards 1st gear, the opposite of the accompanying text..
When I took the TR8 box apart I lost the orientation of that middle piece so ended up putting it in the way the text in the manual said and not the way the accompanying diagram said.
I wonder which way is actually correct, I assume the text?
For some its possible a box has been assembled with that in the other way around, that might account for some 1st/issues.
The 1/2 synchro is marked on the outer ring with 1 notch and the inner part is clearly stamped to 'place 2nd gear'
This is why I always cut a tiny notch in the hubs before disassembly - old hubs seem to grow together
@@BritannicaRestorationsi Mike, on the 2 , 2wd drive boxes I have pulled apart (both suffix C boxes) unfortunately there is no wording stamped on the inner member , but thanks for comment as that supports the text in the manuals is correct and the diagram showing it the other way around is a misprint.
On the second box I took apart I did exactly the same as you suggested in the video and used a dremmel tool to cut a small matching mark across the two pieces in a position that was not a wearing or mating face. That way I wouldn't lose the orientation when putting it through my sonic cleaner.
As a comment regarding selector rods. I replaced all tye synchros and the 1/2 selector fork with a new one on my re build but 1 ro 2 is still notchy when cold.
I have no experience with these gearboxes, however I changed a gearbox in one of my cars from the stock 4 speed to a 5 speed. The 1st-2nd shift was aways a bit like you describe for the first few minutes of driving and then it would be fine all day. The issue was apparently down to the oil viscosity, I had always used EP90 or similar but the 5 speed wanted ATF. I wonder if it is worth trying in your case? Doing a quick search the Landrover gearboxes use a variety of lubricants. 20-50, EP90, ATF... some of the choices seem a bit random...I think many modern gearboxes use ATF to reduce viscous losses... I think it might be worth trying.
Never use EP90 on LT77 or R380!
I stick with Dex3 and seems to be ok
Thank you for this information.
Glad it was helpful!
Hi Mike, I have rebuilt a few transmissions, also using Ashcroft parts, and have found that the transmissions work perfectly but do not shift as nicely as my original 1997 R380 which I have never opened for 260,000 miles. It can be switched absolutely buttery smooth. No comparison to others.
Thanks for sharing
I have the same problem with my puma MT82 gearbox only it's from second to third. Do you think it's a same issue Mike?..
This is why I had a theory about the drive train..
My brothers defender has this 1st to 2nd notch,mine doesnt,very weird! He uses ATF i use Redline MTL fluid
Have a look at this video
ruclips.net/video/uSkjnY7-gEw/видео.html
This box had very bad changes - the oil had never been changed = 3 flushes later was like new - regular ATF
Done this several times now and completely changed the gear changing
Wouldn't a 5 speed Santana be a good alternative to an r380 ?
Yes but thy are a bit agricultural and prone to rear bearing wear
One thing that occurred to me is that most of the hard driving/shifting is done into and out of 2nd gear. This may lead to premature wear of the synchros and it's respective surfaces. The gear itself typically isn't wore out when '2nd gear' gets clunky.
Does that make sense?
Yes it does, but as I mentioned, if you have not seen a gear or hub brand new, how can you compare?
The shop manual shows the selector teeth in a drawing that are good or bad
Hi Mike, I have a Richards V8 110 chassis. I am putting in a Thor V8 from a Range Rover with an R380 gearbox (Ashcroft rebuilt), Discovery V8 bel housing and 1.2 ratio transfer case. The problem I am having is which gearbox mounting brackets do I need? As the gearbox and transfer are sitting about an inch too far forward for the old R380 brackets. Lincoln
Hmm, I was taught always fit the transfer and gearbox mounts first - then work forwards - keeps the props the right length and the shift lever in the correct place
If you have an R380 and LT230, then the original ANR3713 crossmember should bolt in, but because this is a Heinz job, you may have to change the engine mounts on the engine itself.
Hard to say without seeing it
You forgot the Most Common Reason..
" The Problem Exists between the Seat , Clutch and Gear Shifter !! " 😆
Big couts out on syncro is for fast oil evacuation to Slow gear down for easier engagement.
Why only in second gear?
Because of big difference in ratio between first and second gear..
My wife commented on the ratios in our Disco only yesterday. You might have something there.
So it's not just me then feeling a notch when changing from 1st to 2nd. Every other change in the box is smooth.
Yeap - seems to be common
I think the FINAL drive ratios don't help Mike, in a normal car (or a lightly loaded 90) you would never need to get the revs up high to make a shift from 1st to 2nd, but the heavy 110 (fairly low geared) needs a fair bit more RPM input. This means the syncro is doing way more work to slow gears down for the correct mesh alignment. Providing its not causing damage, I think its just 'one of those things' Or start off in 2nd😁
My 130 with the big Isuzu engine in it, is heavier than a 110 and even pulling a car trailer with a 110 on the back was not an issue in any gear - strange
'An amplifier for clonks' made me laugh. The Ashcrofts parts look very good quality but other than newer, it's definitely try spotting the difference.
Indeed - this is why I did this experiment, as I drove the vehicle and experienced the problem first hand
All I can tell you is that my 1980 US SD1 had an LT77
yes
Coming from the 'graunch 'til it gives' school, of '77/230's - the concept of rebuilding a gearbox because there's just a slight 'notch' into 2nd, makes me feel ashamed.
I'll add 'rebuild gearbox' to the whiteboard.
I might as well attempt to experience smooth gearchanges for once in my life
😁👍
As I refurbish a lot of these boxes in Canada, they expect them to be perfect - and the cost of returns are expensive!
@@BritannicaRestorations Well, I have an R380 knocking about I've wanted to drop behind my 200tdi for a while, so you've shamed me into actually doing the recon - cheers 😁👍
Hi Mike, perhaps try putting some bluing compound on the cone and gently turning the bulk ring on it and see if the grooves are all making even contact across the face of the gear cone, also consider the mass of the clutch plate, input shaft, layshaft and the second gear itself plus the 1st and 3rd gears (not much you can do about that I know) but the synchro ring has to work hard to adjust the previous to the right speed to get a smooth gear change, there are also implications for the clutch plate dragging on the flywheel when the clutch pedal is depressed, my personal preference is to completely clean and dry input shaft splines and apply some graphite powder to the splines before I refit a gear box, grease accumulates friction dust and gets hard and claggy, binding on splines etc...
I do not think it has anything to do with the clutch for the simple reason my 3.9 Isuzu engine has an R230 I built from Britpart bits
Smooth as silk for all gears, and the Isuzu has a massive clutch fitted from the original engine
been running for over 10 years
Bardzo dobry film pozdrawiam dobranoc.
Just 2 weeks ago installed my completely rebuilt R380 and transfer box with 2k of new parts from Ashcroft. It feels lovely compared to how it was, that's for sure. I drove my friends Nissan x-trail which had a gearbox that just 'snicked' into place no matter the revs.
I am that sad old man with gearbox envy!!
Akio Toyoda = “Let's make ever-better cars”
Land Rover = "Let's make them more complicated, so they are dealer only for repairs, using low quality parts that will just scrape through warranty - oh and don't make them in the UK, but give the impression they are British"
@@BritannicaRestorations Oh man, that is a jaundiced point of view, and a justified one, but I will say that at least we can afford the prices of the spare parts (don't say it!!) whereas the Toyota parts are eye-wateringly expensive...even if you don't need to use them as often!!
That is the problem with Land Rover though - parts from the dealer are very expensive even if they have them! Try getting Tdi parts from a dealer! So the after market manufactures pick up on this, and we complain that cheap parts fail
However, at least we can get the parts to keep vehicles running
😊
Ace maey.
Double clutch mike. Be a man
My defender lost 1-2 synchro after 10,000km double up and back down no problem 91 models and my brother li law just rebuild the box after who knows how many k's in over 30yrs.