Mouse Guns for Self-Defense
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- Опубликовано: 8 фев 2024
- Can Mouse Guns ever be suitable for personal self-defense? We look at the .25 ACP, .32 ACP and the .22 LR ... One of them can be useful under certain conditions. But, you are better off with more gun! Even mice can be dangerous.
The .25 ACP costs too much to shoot mice with.
A friend going thru a custody battle, owned his own old farm house and was shooting mice with his 10yr old boy while watching football game on TV in his living room with a 10/22.
Mother found out and confronted him. He confessed and Mom started screaming "I CAN'T COMPETE WITH THAT" !!!
He nodded and replied "thanks for letting me know". Never heard another word from her about it.
A lot of the problems with .25 acp is with older guns with corroded bores or out-of-spec cheap guns. We had 4 shootings with .25 acp over the course of a few years at my old agency. 3 were hit in the head (one in the back, one in the face, and one I think in the side of the head). All three hit the floor and did not move again. The fourth was a cop, round went through the crazy amount of stuff his shirt pocket (including a stack of business cards and leather case, hit his vest at an angle, ran along to the overlapped edge (none of our vests fit well), got under the vest, and left a gash along his ribs. He said he felt like he'd been punched. He broke off his foot pursuit so technically that was a one-shot stop, too.
Still, if one is using a .25 or a .22 handgun for self-defense, they better be a good shot and put it where it counts. Of course, that's true with most rounds anyway.
Great channel! Good info!
One trainer put it this way - "Nobody likes to leak."
My grandpa swore by his 25 acp. He said it all about shot placement. Your first shot goes in the attackers nether area, causing the attacker to double over. The second goes in the top of the head
The LW Seecamp .32 using Winchester Silvertip ammunition was actually an effective self defense firearm. Paul Harrell has a Baby Browning he carries and has shot and killed deer with it.
A friend of mine (no, no, really) testing the function of a 25 ACP he had blued and now put back together, accidentally touched off a live round. It glanced off his workbench, squarely struck a half-filled glass Pepsi bottle and ricocheted back at him. It struck him on the point of the chin and lay on his workbench. He said, "ouch." A small red dot on his chin for a day was the only damage the bullet did. Not including that when he picked up the bullet it was hot on his fingers. So...not much damage from a bullet that had traveled a total of 30 inches in a short circle.
In 1986 I went to an indoor pistol range at Arcadia, Pretoria, South Africa.
I was using a S&W Model 36 Chief .38special and shot at a paper target with lead, round nose bullets at about 10 meters.
One round having been fired by me (no one else shooting) returned from the butts and hit me dead center on my sternum. It dropped to my feet. All I experienced was a bruise and picked up the very hot bullet. It’s not really a story worth telling - no one believes it.
@@ibnewton8951 I had the same thing happen to me with a 115gr+P Corbon Sierra after it flew 25yds downrange, hit the backstop, and ricocheted right back at me.
BIG bruise on my sternum,and it felt like i got punched by a middleweight boxer, but otherwise I was fine.
@@Valorius
People tend not to believe you, right?
@@ibnewton8951 There were several witnesses and all my friends saw the bruise, so no one ever questioned it, at least out loud.
@@Valorius
Good for you. I believe you but most people are incredulous hearing stories like this because it’s not an everyday occurrence.
IDK. A lot of folks belittle people carrying these "mouse guns." I am a firm believer that a mouse gun in hand will serve you better in a deadly threat situation than a howitzer sitting at home, secured in the safe.
Will it serve you better than the 38 in your pocket or the 9mm micro on your belt?
@@FoulPet it would certainly not serve me better, but I have a friend who has a partly disabled hand and it would serve him a hell of a lot better than the .38 ot 9. I know that's not speaking to the primary point of the video, but I think it's absolutely an important side point.
@@jlthearcherI have 2 good hands and I can barely operate a mouse gun. Try the S&W EZ 380. Berretta has the 30x but it's suffers from possibly getting slide bite. If they can operate a revolver try a 22 mag.
If operating a pistol is difficult I don't see how making the gun tiny and difficult to manipulate helps.
@@FoulPet it's not the size with which they have trouble, it's the recoil of anything bigger than a .32
Not everyone has the same ability, or lack thereof. I have met a dozen people in my classes who are way better off with a small caliber pocket gun than larger caliber, or in some cases, even a larger framed pistol.
@jlthearcher the smaller a gun, the more the recoil. I've yet to hold a mouse gun that I wasn't concerned about slide bite. A larger 380 will have little recoil. The Berretta Tomcat is a relatively large 32, and it still needs to be gripped properly, or you'll cut your hand open.
If you have to resort to a 25 acp, I'd suggest a 22lr or 22 mag in a revolver if you're capable of pulling the longer heavier trigger. If not, get something like the SR22 Ruger or TX22 Taurus.
I appreciate your style and presentation. I feel like I have known you for a long time.😄
Thanks for the kind words.
Once again Mr F shares his vast knowledge on guns ammo and history with us and we are all better for it. Thanks mister F. ❤
My great aunt kept a Beretta 950 in her nightstand for decades. Tiny 25 acp. Never once fired it, to my knowledge. She left it to me when she passed, and it will live in my safe forever.
Did she know how to use it? ... probably not.
Would I have trusted it to save her life? ..also probably not.
But was it better than nothing? ...maybe???
Thanks for the video. I enjoy this series quite a lot and always look forward to the next installment. Take care
Enjoying the series.
Been looking forward to this one
Hope you liked it.
From a 2" bbl. 22LR and .25 ACP has virtually the same ballistics.
I really enjoy and value your videos,opinion, and information. I cannot thank you enough. Be safe.
Much appreciated
Nice video, thank you.
Glad you liked it!
I once had (1975) a U.S Govt marked Colt 1903 in excellent condition cal .32 ACP. NEVER did a serial number check unfortunately could have been real interesting. I traded it for something MORE POWERFUL. I have always liked the classic pocket guns in .25,.32 and .380. By classic I mean all steel guns by Colt, Walther, Sauer 38H (7.65 grandpa of SIG P220) Browning and Beretta. Mentioned. 30 Super Carry which reminds me of the old French 7.65 Long but loaded to higher pressures. As a kid in the early 60 's i liked the French 1935S in 7.65 Long the guns going for $25 and the ammo $5.00 per 100.But this .30 Super Carry reminds me of that 7.65 French Long ( believe it was 7.65x22). Interesting video. I have always found in the quality all steel classic pistols in .32 ACP these shoot more accutately in the same model guns than the same variant in .380. Example Colt 1903 .32 VS Colt 1908 .380 or Walther PPK 7.65 VS Walther PPK .380.
Found your channel on my TV youtube so added and subscribed to you on all devices. In a word outstanding work and spot on. Our experience levels are similar 37 years in law enforcement. I've been an advocate of the .45ACP all my career (retired) and how a 9mm could be as good goes against all logic and the laws of physics. Thanks for your professional work doing these youtube submissions.
Thanks for the kind words and subscription.
Laws of physics, true...but the pertinent laws are those of physiology, and in these, the 45 ACP is not found necessarily superior to alternative calibers. But we all have our favorites.
Ruger LCR in .327 Magnum is the exception. The 6-round cylinder doesn’t require hand strength to rack a slide. The good grip makes it easier to handle the recoil and less powerful rounds can also be utilized, if desired.
Back in the day 32 ACP & 32 S&W long were popular back up guns for local police. I think they were all pretty realistic about its limitations but the firearms were small enough to be comfortably carried on ankle holsters day in and day out. One officer I knew well carried a early Bersa 32 ACP & he loaded it with Winchester Silvertip a IIRC
Great informative video on mouse guns and cartridges. I have several 9 mm pistols but also have a S&W 43c .22 revolver loaded with 8 rounds of Federal Punch that I carry in certain situations. The 43c snubby weighing in at 11 ounces is an easy go anywhere gun. My next purchase will be a .22 mag snubby, preferably something light like a S&W 351.
German WW2 7,65mm Browning ammunition had a hotter load, usually 73gr nickel plated FMJ @ 1000-1050 fps from a PP/PPK. Rapid accurate shot placement was considered a lot easier than with a 9mm P38 for example.
A 22 WMR Revolver Would Be A Nice Upgrade As Far As A 22 Is Concerned ! Love Your Channel As It Contains Fine & Informative Subject Matter !!!
Buddy out of everything you said, one thing I know is nobody wants to leak. Anyone who will carry a 22LR will put 10 rounds into a place on the target quick fast in a hurry and the threat is moving away from you or stopped. Just my opinion. Great video, thanks for sharing
Great info
I would not underestimate the modern .32 ACP cartridge. I have a Beretta 3032 Tomcat. I use it as a backup gun. I load it with Underwood Xtreme Defender +P 55gr. I chrono'd this ammo at 1,037 fps average. It will penetrate 14+ inches of ballistic gel. Energy about 130 lb/ft. These feed reliably. Not satisfied with that performance? Try Buffalo Bore's 75gr flat nose hardcast. Rated at 1,150 fps from a 2.5" barrel, this round generates 220 lb/ft of energy, which is right up there with common .380 ACP defense loads and many .38 Special loads available. This load is damn hot, and frequent usage may damage some .32 ACP pistols. As to .22 LR... Federal Punch does not reliably cycle in some fixed barrel, blowback pistols. That 29gr bullet just doesn't offer enough giddy-up. Browning type tipping barrels seem to cycle it just fine.
For those with very week grip, I recommend an 8 shot .22 revolver, or the Ruger SR-22. If they have a pulse, the Ruger can be managed. This pistol does cycle Punch, Stingers, and Velocitors. DA/SA, hammer fired. Great little pistol.
cci stingers are great rounds
Your mistaken about James Bond. He was told to give up his lovable Biretta for a Anti-Tank gun. He used his Walther 32 very effectively; He killed a headlight on the dragon. As the Santa said in Christmas Story "You'll shoot your eye out."
As brilliant as John Browning was, he screwed the pooch when he designed the .32 auto cartridge with a semi-rimmed case. As long as the cartridge OAL conforms to the original spec, rim lock is not a problem. But in several modern loadings, the projectile used is shorter than a FMJ, and during the recoil cycle, the cartridges have room to move in the magazine, front to back, and rim lock can be a problem. Because of the rim lock issue, I think the .32 auto is a very poor choice for a self defense option. I think the .22 LR is the “best” of the three you covered, and the Federal Punch ammo would be my ammo of choice in this caliber.
One thing close, that I have confidence in is .32 HR Mag. Love my charter arms professional 7 shot 3” bbl. Look forward to your review and opinion.
9MM, 40 Cal, 45ACP….. 38,38+p, or 357 Magnum are my Top Picks! You can get different size pistols in these calibers. Glock 43, Glock 36, Ruger LCR 357 etc. No reason to carry a mouse pistol IMO.
Beretta Sr.
Great discussion Dick. IMHO why carry anything less than 9mm given the very small pistols now available chambered in it. The .327 Federal is a different animal for revolvers. But I still prefer .38 Special. I think for those who need it, a .22LR revolver is much better than nothing. Federal Punch and similar would be my choice for self defense. The round actually penetrates decently.
I agree about the 25acp. I've worked hundreds of shootings over my 30 years as a cop and CSI which included several shootings involving the 25acp. None of them died or were even seriously hurt. But I have to disagree about preferring a 22lr over a 32acp. From what I've seen the 32acp, being a semi-rimmed, center-fire cartridge functions more reliably in a semi-auto pistol. It also performs better. But I would recommend a 380acp or a 9mm above either as a secondary/backup or civilian self-defense everyday carry weapon. But for law enforcement and security personnel, I would recommend 40 caliber/10mm and above.
Interesting anecdotes on the .25
.32 ACP is also expensive compared to .380 which works against it. My understanding is that .32 is pretty good in barrels 3.5 inches and over with good ammo and has very low report. The later is a bit big for a CCW piece and supressors are regulated. Carrying them is generally not OK even where legal so it doesn't help
I’ve got my grandpas old 32 ACP that he carried while sheriff back in the 30’s. Those were the calibers they used back then. I’ve shot it, the rifling is pretty much gone so the bullets tumble even at 10yrds. Even back then these weren’t man stoppers but would still get your attention if shot at.
Dear Mr. Fairburn,
Thanks for the well-crafted and clear presentation. The use of handguns is one field of debate where everyone thinks they know something. Clarity is needed and you have given it! There is a way to use the .22 Long Rifle very effectively. Yes, some skill is required and the range should be short. If we remember a famous leader that was hit in the 1980's we can see the danger of a fragmenting .22 lr in an area just under the head. Please this is not advice. Just a noting of an historical event and the example of a critical hit.
Janice, you are absolutely correct. Viewing the videos of the event we can see three adult males instantly disabled and taken "out of the fight". The President was hit tangentially, and from a fellow doctor friend I was told when Reagan hit the ER at George Washington he was down and out.
Mr. Fairburn I respect your opinion and information. I have carried a High Standard two shot .22 magnum in my left front pocket (on and off duty) for over 30 years as a last resort. This was not my back-up weapon, just my last security item. I carried the required duty weapon and issued ammunition, as well as a responsible back-up weapon (.38 special). It was accurate to minute of thug at contract - 7 yards. I was determined to be judged by 12 rather than carried by 6.
2 BUGs, you were well prepared, sir.
Hi Dick. Great Video!! I was always told to compare the .25ACP specifications to the BB and pellet guns at the local Walmarts. So Sad.
I ran across a mint Baby Browning with box, papers, and the original leather gun rug included, not a mark or blemish on the gun or accessories. The asking price was very reasonable given the pristine condition, but I don't own safe queens, and I could see no practical use for it. I left it for some collector who would have been thrilled to have it.
I like CCI 22 ammo the best. I have never had a failure too feed in my autos and in a revolver they always go bang. Their 22 macnum in 40 grains is a fast , good round also. The jacketed round that just came out is a CCI Uppercut. It is not as great as all the hype says it is but it does expand in the right gun at the right length barrel.
Back in the early 80 s when I was in law enforcement I carried various calibers of 22 lr and 25 acp and 32 short and long revolver and semi auto, but my main Carry was a Colt trooper 357 magnum revolver, that's what I carried, but sometimes a model 60 and 36 in 38 special, some officers carried the S&w 19 and the 66 , and some were issued and some were theirs for personal reasons,i carried them on occasion, but I likeed the Colt trooper in 357 magnum revolver, that's what my dad carried when he started law enforcement in 1957 , and I started shooting it when I was 6 years old, with 38 special and magnum when I was 8 and 45 acp when I was 9 and they are still some of my favorite caliber pistols today ,my Dad was a lieutenant with the sheriff's department and I was a city police officer and I still lived at home when I first started my law enforcement day, my mom was a sergeant with the sheriff's office, but she was in the civil division and a separate division from the patrol division, that's like in some states a constable, but later I got my own place, my dad always had marked and unmarked car, and I had a marked unit when I was there, and a deputy lived down 3 houses from us and a state trooper and game warden, not very much criminals or criminal activity occurring in my neighborhood 😂, bad guys stayed Away and didn't like seeing a police vehicle in the area,but I have carried various calibers and pistols in off duty and on i still have a Jennings j-22 and a raven in 25 acp, and they are still fully functional and work, maybe 🤔 not the best but they are still quite capable, but I was in the military and law enforcement and have various types of training and skills, and the use of various calibers and weapons, but I also understand that some people don't but you can also 🤔 you need to get familiar and train with your fire arms now not two days from now or 2 months from now learn them, train and what they are capable of 🤔 and are able to use them if needed or when
So, your Colt Trooper was the original model (leaf mainspring), not the later Trooper Mark III (coil mainspring)? I had an original Trooper, carried it for a long time and went through Firearms Instructor school with it. That Colt "E" frame later got a vent-rib barrel and a fancier polish job and they called it the Python, best revolver ever made in my opinion. Don't remember why I sold the Trooper, just know it was a mistake!
@@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb
Older 357 Colt nickel finish,1967 4"
@@13BravoBiggunsM110SP Sweet!
My little Beretta 950BS 22 short is an excellent SD pistol. “Snake defense” that is.
Ruger also chambers the LCR revolver in .22, both LR and Magnum...
If you are talking about the new CCI Uppercut .22lr jacketed hollow point? It is performing very poor in the testing that i have seen.
Agreed. Seems to be loaded too mildly. It’s getting low velocities not enough to expand.
Hopefully they fix the loading
Some scheduling issue kept me from the SHOT show, but I will arrange to get some Uppercuts and see how they perform in my water jug testing.
Lest we forget that these replaced the .32 rimfire, .38 rimfire, and .41 rimfire Derringer or single shot pocket pistols! Dig deep in history of firearms! Better to have and use it than not !
There is a jacketed hollow point 22LR that has already been out for a short amount of time called the "CCI knockout". There's already a few people who have reviewed it, some people have luck with it expanding, others not so much. But everyone who has done ballistic gel tests similar to FBI tests with denim are only getting penetration levels if I'm remembering this correctly somewhere between 6 to 8 in, and sometimes less if it expands. I would just stick to Federal punch but the pistol has to be able to deal with longer case 22LR ammo because the punch does have a longer casing and it seems some 22 pistols don't handle these longer casings very well.
👍
I wouldn't use one for self defense, as long as I have other options, but I do think some of those little pistols are cooler than all get out. They are so small, I could carry them under my tongue and no one would ever know.
Older people could use a tilt barrel like beretta or girsan mc14t. Wouldn't need to rack the slide
What about comparison with a 22 magnum ?
See previous comments - the .22 Mag does not impress me from short barreled pistols, but I will see about arranging some testing.
@@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb I took the tips out of some Remington accutip rounds, and they are super nasty out of my NAA black widow
You'll all have a good laugh at my .32rimfire 4 barrel percussion powder Remington Elliot, but many here in Commifornia have nothing but whistles!
I have an old Walther pp in 32acp. It's one of the most accurate guns I own. Any kind of gun in your pocket is better than none. I consider the 380 to under powered.
I used to own this pistol too. It’s hopelessly under powered. Lovely engineering but underpowered.
The closest thing I’ve ever carried to a “Mouse gun” is my PPK/s .380. I agree with using JHP in this gun, also. All I ever carried in it. At this point, it’s been relegated to role of “collectible that I like owning.” Good video, thanks.
Darn PPKs always bit the web of my hand, guess I'm not the James Bond type.
I appreciate your honesty, willing to say that some guns are completely useless!!
Here is a real 22 short story. A large frame female was on a pay phone with 911 when here attacker shot her on the forehead, right between the eyes, with a RG in 22 short. When the ambulance arrived, the EMT's checked, cleaned the wound and put a band-aid on it. The victim complained with a headache for a few minutes but was fine after the ambulance got on scene.
According to Greg Ellofritz, 9mm is 22% more effective in stopping attackers than 25ACP when measured by the Failure to Stop rate. But according to a National Firearms Survey (2018), 82% of violent attacks were stopped simply by the presence of a gun. In only 18% of cases were guns actually fired. If we accept these stats at face value, the 22% benefit of 9mm is not 22% overall but 22% of the 18% of the time guns had to be fired, which is a benefit of 4% over all violent threats. Statistically, I have to roll a 6 sided dice 6 times to have one chance (1.0) of rolling a 6. So, statistically, I would have to be mugged 25 times before I would have one chance to experience the benefit of carrying a 9mm over a 25ACP. That is a risk I can live with when concealment is a primary concern.
Cci uppercut is the newest personal protection 22lr
Grew up in Rogers Park Chicago in the '50s. Didn't even have a good idea what a .22 rifle looked like.
The .22 JHP load you're referring to is the CCI "Uppercut". Bizarre name. Different internet gel block guys have gotten differing results.
Apart from the mouse calibers, in our classes, we have seen the newish Ruger Security .380 as a very good option for people with racking issues or recoil sensitivity.
I may have to disagree a bit about the reliability of premium .22LR ammunition, again based on our extensive experience in doing Intro classes- nearly 600 to date.
CCI Mini Mags are the only round we trust for Intros, where nervous new shooters get even more stressed out by malfunctions. Yet we know that in a class of say, 12 people, each shooting 80-100 rounds apiece, we will see a minimum of two duds and more likely, five or six.
This applies to both the Ruger Mk III 22/45s we used for many, many years until switching the Taurus TX-22, which is a superior gun for initial training (not to mention far easier to dismantle and reassemble!). We haven't seen much reliability difference, even though my sense is the Ruger, being a hammer-fired gun, seems to hit harder.
Let the guns get a bit dirty, as training guns so often do, and the dud count will increase as seating in the chamber gets somewhat problematic.
I have to mention the Smith 317, an extremely cool little gun, well-featured and something I ought to want, but don't. All of the 317s I've handled at the large store where we instruct have had horrendous double-action pulls. Of course, getting reliable, light triggers on J-frames is either a dark art or a fool's errand, and we are hesitant to recommend the newbie seeking a lightening trigger job. That, plus the equally horrendous price tag. I love my near-half-century old Kit Gun, but the 317 is one I've steered clear of.
To which I might add, in .22LR, I consider smaller revolvers distinctly less reliable than semis, owing to the slightest bit of crud getting in the chamber recesses and making full seating if not consciously forced in all the way iffy.
Good advice from your experience.
I have to agree that the S&W 317 DA is atrocious I've personally seen 5 so far and they are bad. The LCP lite rack I could get behind.
On another note, losing strength, dexterity, and muscle poses much greater health risks than not being able to manipulate a semi-auto. I chuckle to myself when the big fat guy is more concerned about not being able to appendix carry. He’s more likely to be a victim of a heart attack than a car-jacking gone bad. I’m a gun guy nearing 60 years old who loves to strategize self-defense scenarios, but I’m also a realist who tries to stay in shape because I play the odds.
You make a valid point but, old, weak ... even grossly overweight people still have the right to defend themselves. In a retired LEO shoot once I saw a young range officer comment that two aging Troopers ... 1 in a wheelchair and another with a walker ... "shouldn't be qualifying to carry." I reminded him that the wolves generally attack the weakest animal in the herd for an easier "kill." These old cops weren't qualifying to go make arrests, they were qualifying in order to protect themselves, and they were more likely to become a crime victim than the younger, fit range officer.
A few years ago, I bought a Beretta Model 81 Italian police trade in, I don't know that I'd carry it for defense as I've got much better tools for that, but it is a fun gun to shoot, and I think shoots pretty hard. I also Own a Model 85 BB that was sold as the same thing, a police trade in. It's in .380 and I think it would be adequate as a carry gun. The biggest drawback with it is its size and weight. So, what do I carry? A Taurus GX4 in 9mm. I don't feel a bit under armed with it and at a whopping 18 ounces you forget you're carrying it. Twelve rounds of 9mm are nice to know you have too.
If it comes down to generals firing their pistol, then the cartridge wont make a difference. It might as well be a 32 ACP as anything else.
Aguila Supermaximum is a better federal punch, for about 25% less money.
In all my testing, nothing outperforms *Aguila 40gr Interceptor*
I actually get supersonic velocity from that in my 4" Sig P322, and in my daughter's 16" 15-22 it produces 380 acp type levels of energy.
You can get that in solids as well. That would be my no.1 choice in .22LR for self defense, if for some reason you carry a .22LR for self defense (which I do at times on my homestead)
You may have heard this story, but it happened in my county.
260 pound male had removed a window AC unit and was crawling in the window. 65 year old female fired one round from
An antique.25 auto (a Bayard I think) and struck him in the elbow.
We found him half in and half out of the window dead as a coffin nail. Coroner's report stated the cause of death as a heart attack.
He joked privately that the shot scared the man to death.
Great story!
I came across a “York Cutlery” little .25ACP. Couldnt find any information on it, but i bet its been used in a couple “unfortunate” events. Still works great though. Cute little thing, i definitely dont plan on carrying it lmao
That would be me never had a 22 ,but I had an M1 Carbine 30cal,
Poverty has kept me out of the gun world for many years. I still feel horrible about having to sell my model 36. 😪I have to honestly say I don't like semi-autos much (and I detest striker fired pistols). However for a 22 I don't mind as much since the brass is virtually worthless. So I was very interested in your take on the 22.
My plan is to get to the point where I have a centerfire revolver for primary in part due to their advantages in close contact grappling (especially in light of my arthritic wrists) but with an auto as backup. With my need for lots of practice to get my skills back I thought of starting with a reasonably priced 22 like a P17 and then get a medium to large bore revolver later as a second step. I don't live in gang banger country so I don't think I need to go full Rambo.
.380 do you recommend fmj or jhp? I feel like penetration in this marginal caliber may be more important than expansion, hence I switched to ball ammo. I am concerned about OVER penetration, but if the bullet never gets deep enough, it’s a worse situation, in my opinion.
When my wife and I carry a .380 it is loaded with Black Hills Ammo's 60gr Honey Badger ammo using the Lehigh Defense FTM bullet. It gives deep, reliable penetration and the flutes add damage equivalent to that of a JHP, in my opinion.
Lets put it this way...EDC in .25 auto or .32 auto is good choice. You are Ex cop, so your opinion is based on "how to arrest or kill by the law". Mine is to stop attack.
I’m wondering what are your thoughts on the 22 WRM in this application.
Mouse gun stories that fail to drop an opponent abound, but I saw my share dropped in my 30 yrs as a city cop. I even carried a .25 as a backup b/c that’s all I could afford at the time.
I think 25 ACP is still a modern veto dog for some people, if you can't find or afford brand new CCI 22lr right at 950 FPS, then 25 ACP is a subsonic option so you can deter stray foes on a walk home or through the neighborhood. If you are in a high crime area supersonic 22lr might cause unwanted attention or reputation, and it also increases the chances of collateral. You could also be more focused on your reputation in court rather than on the streets.
My favorite "mouse guns" for a small backup self-defense pistol is the small size DAVIS derringer in the .32 acp caliber and the KEL-TEC P32 in the .32 acp caliber. I load my KEL-TEC P32 with high performance +P .32 acp UNDERWOOD brand ammunition.
I would only use a .22 Long Rifle rimfire caliber in a double action revolver, because if there is a dud round misfire I can just pull the trigger quickly to fire this gun💥
Centerfire ammunition is always more reliable than rimfire ammunition.
The .22 Long Rifle rimfire ammunition has problems with the brass casings corroding in high humidity which will damage the primers .
back in the days before ccw's , there were a ton of people carried the 25's . all joking aside , you are correct about the fmj's . they were kind of a last ditch thing . People were killed wih them from time to time. the 25 is better than the 22, because it feeds better. I don't recomend it either , but they can and will killl you .
Mausers are great! What's the problem?
Although I do respect your outlook on calibers have you ever heard of the Colt 1903 pocket hammerless it was chambered in the 32 ACP and they were using full metal jackets and as well as the Mauser 1914 handgun and from what I've heard they used those two handguns in world war I and 2 they neutralized alot of people
I mentioned the Colt .32 pocket pistols in the Mouseguns video. The Colt was issued to US generals in WW II and the Germans used both the Walther and Mauser pistols in .32 extensively. I'm sure a lot of people have been shot with a .32, I just don't think it is good choice in light of the many small .380 and 9mm pistols we have for concealed carry.
@@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb i agree it's just wild that they were using those calibers in a war and I apologize I must've missed what you said on the Colt 32 pocket handguns but for sure they definitely wouldn't be my first choice either 😱 and thanks for the response
Great analysis! I'm old and most of my friends are in the same boat. Some of them don't have the strenght to work the slide on a .380 or above and rely on a .22 LR. They realise that head shots will be necessary if SHTF. They are also using the flat nose ammo.
I grew up with a single shot Winchester 22 and very little money, so I shot .22 Shorts. I learned that shot placement on the first shot was paramount with about any target.
Why did you not address the .22 WMR? I have several and am interested in your thoughts on them.
My limited experience with the .22 Mg in a High Standard derringer was not good, VERY loud - vicious muzzle blast. I don't think the little bit of added power over a .22LR is worth the added cost, but I'll give it some thought and try to arrange a test.
Having some experience with 22 mag, I would not enjoy firing one with a derringer. I had a Ruger LCRX with a 3" barrel, but got rid of it. It had about a 16# double action trigger pull. You are correct on the noise and muzzle blast. I really like it in a rifle though. Ammo is expensive.@@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb
I'll probably do a vid putting out the official data on the new Federal loads in .25 and .32. .32 H&R with the 85 Gr Federal Defense JHP is a pretty darn legit choice if someone needs low recoil.
Glad to see the 22 getting some love, lol.
I don’t know if you’re familiar with the term “underwear gun” or the “rule one gun”, but it’s an interesting concept. There are several well known and reputable individuals that discuss this topic at length and it makes a lot of sense, to me.
Basically, it’s the kind of gun you can have with you all the time, even at home. It’s something you can slip in your pocket when you’re just going out for a quick trip, etc.
The concept of carrying a gun, while at home, may sound paranoid but who will realistically carry a full size or even compact pistol around at home all the time? Especially so with small kids who like to rough house or climb all over you, lol.
In my mind, 6-8 quick and well placed shots from a 22 lr or 22 magnum, with adequate penetration, would facilitate quicker blood loss which in turn means a faster end to hostilities.
Sorry for the long winded comment, but I find the concept of an “underwear gun” a very viable and practical option, for me.
Look forward to the 30 Super Carry and the 32 H & R magnum video. A 22 Magnum video would be good too 😉.
Thanks and keep up the good work.
Thanks for the kind words. At one point we had a High Standard .22 Magnum derringer, a crime seizure gun. We took it out with a box of Winchester .22 Magnum ammo and the muzzle blast/flash was so vicious it was uncomfortable to shoot. From the short barrels, I think the .22 Magnum doesn't add enough terminal power to be worth the added muzzle blast.
@@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb you’re welcome.
Yeah, I bet that was a blast in more ways than one, lol. From a revolver, from what I have seen, it doesn’t look terrible. In the end though, we each have to decide if “the juice is worth the squeeze”, lol.
I’ve owned and carried a LW Seecamp 32ACP for years. Obviously the caliber has its limitations, but it’ll go where my shrouded Colt Agent & LW Commander will not.
As an active duty cop with 36 years so far, I happily carry a beretta 25 ACP (aarp.) When I do, it is as a plainclothes position, and it is obviously my second weapon. I always carry a second pistol on duty. In my experience, most other cops do not. I shoot both carry pistols once a week. Do I believe the 25 will turn someone into pink mist? no. Do I recommend it no. Chances are, if you are reading this, you do not carry two pistols on duty, so go easy on me. And in my time as a cop, I definitely have responded to calls where the dead guy was shot with a 25. I do not recommend letting someone test it on you. Buffalo Bore makes a 60 grain that is nearly 900 fps from a 2.4 inch barrel. Any way you see it, the 25 is a poor choice for a self defense situation. I am old and I am not too worried about trying to live forever.
I don't know that I completely agree with you, because:
1) the Beretta model 70 series 22lr pistols were used very effectively by the Israeli sky marshals and Mossad.. Check out Mordechai Rachimim;s work with the 22 lr in two attempted sky jackings, and the use of the same pistol by the Mossad after the Munich Olympic killings of the Israeli athletes.
2) The OSS and their successors used the High Standard and later Ruger 22 lr pistols with some effectiveness in WWII and Vietnam.
3) The head is a risky target as it can be in rapid and varied motion. However the lower neck and upper chest are much less so, and there are many very vulnerable targets there such as the trachea, thyroid (very vascular), jugular veins and carotid arteries, subclavian veins and arteries, spinal column, thoracic aorta, and lung apices. If I were to defend myself with a 22lr pistol I would focus on these areas. (This also conforms to my observations treating GSW in an urban ER in a bad neighborhood.)
I TOTALLY agree with your comment that high quality 22lr ammunition is very, very reliable.
But you reminded me of an amusing incident from my youth. My father was then a high-ranking court officer in NYC, and could legally carry a gun if he chose. At the time, he knew very little about guns, and I was into competitive target shooting. He eventually decided he should carry, and brought home several handguns provided to him by his buddies in the NYPD (most of whom I knew). I was never told of their pedigree, but looking at some of them, I concluded these had no paper records, if you get my drift. One of them was a Mauser SA .25 ACP. At the time I had an "informal" target range in our basement, with backstop of an old mahogany table section backed up by a large box of rag filler. My .22 rile rounds would regularly go through the mahogany board and then be safely trapped in the fabric. We decided to test the Mauser, and I set up my "range" and fired the pistol. There was a knocking and then rattling sound. and I found the .25 bullet had merely dented the mahogany and bounced off, and was lying on the floor. I told him we had proven that the .25 ACP was not a prudent choice. He chose a J-frame which was one of the alternatives.
Great info, thanks!
I have an NAA .22 mini mag in .22 magnum. A reviewer of this revolver declared one equipped with this is "Semi armed". I am also a practitioner of Kenpo Karate. My mini mag is considered a hand to hand combat support weapon in the same class as the shuriken. The Ninja throwing star, or other martial arts throwing weapon.
Those things buck like a Bronco but at shuriken range , you might actually hit someone with it so there is that.
@@simonacerton3478 Installed aftermarket grips which makes a huge difference
makes sense, The big rubber grips would be better than that minuscule birdshead by far.
Get yourself some of the accutip rounds , pull the small tip out of the hollow point and you have something special there . Nasty little thing
My carry gun Is a colt jr
25 acp gold dots
Our current carry is .25acp...sure, the round is anemic...also sure, no one wants even small holes poked into them...Hollywood style gunfight, we might be in trouble...Wal-Mart parking lot, we might be okay...zero gaurentees with any caliber...
I agree with the .25 acp but the .32 acp was used by French army to clean German trenches during WWI with Spanish made Ruby pistols 9+1 and it seems there were no complaints about the superiority of the 9mm Parabellum or even the 7,63mm Mauser the enemy used. Addecuate? Not if you can get more powerful calibers but it's not such a weak round with fmj bullets. They provide enough penetration to reach vital organs and shot placement is even today still more relevant that a slightly bigger pistol caliber. Of course you don't have to use hollow points, any.
ruclips.net/video/KM8CEKY-xSU/видео.html&ab_channel=C%26Rsenal
.32 is effective in compact service arms in ways that it is not in subcompacts aka vest pocket or mouse guns . Things like the 1907 Savage while a bit big for CCW are deadly pistols The French Army also used those and those 10 shots quick came in handy I suspect .
As always, good take on the 3 blind mice. The take on these caliber's are this. The LEO's that Dad knew were trained with a Primary, a back up (snub-nosed 38sp) and 1 of the mouse calibrer vest pocket or last ditch option. Large PO force in the 60's thru 80's. Dad always carried a Nickel FN in 32acp. Only pulled it once and the young lad rethought his descion to bother an old man getting his evening paper. That said with the new technology a small 9mm is a viable opiton a. Shield in 9 mm or even a DB 9 gen4 definitely fits in a pocket. A 9mm say 15 rd pistol with a spare mag should get you through any social engagement, but still nothing wrong with a back up weapon also. The LCP 2 with the xtreme defender rounds are also a good choice. But the only mouse gun would be a 22. And then just a last ditch effort. Keep. Up the good work.
22 mag PMR 30?
What are your thoughts on 32 h&r magnum?
It will be covered with the .30 Super Carry since are near ballistic twins. Coming out soon.
I learned from Evan Marshall that friends don’t let friends carry mouse guns.
My smallest is 38 Spl or 9mm.
All fine choices though .380 is not really a mouse gun IMO and in something like a S&W EZ with its locked breach is a very low recoil weapon with muzzle energy on par with a lighter .38 and much less recoil.
I carried 25 and 32 a lot. Nevr found anyone willinh to proof it wont kill them with 1 shot.....
22lr fan here👋👋👋 ruger mark 4🤘❤️
Great job as usual. Id rather carry a slingshot than a .25.
Me too.
@@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jbworked well for David…
My wife keeps wanting to rely on her .22 LR and her .25 ACP pistols as her primary defense guns when she has many 9mm pistols to choose from. She says she doesn't like the recoil of a 9mm. I bluntly told her that if she forgoes her 9mm guns for a "mouse" gun, she _might_ stop her attacker, but if she _doesn't_ stop him, she has basically asked for everything that her attacker will then dish out. I heard no more bullshit out of her about preferring "mouse" guns over her 9mm pistols after that.
Tough love ... I guess it works.
@@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb I call it the 2x4 of truth upside the head. My wife even tried to get a saleswoman behind the counter at a gun shop justify her reasoning for wanting to rely on a "mouse" gun instead of one of her 9mm pistols. The saleswoman tried using the line about how small bullets will often do more damage because they will ricochet around inside an attacker's body and cause more carnage. I told that woman that this _might_ happen once in a very great while, but nothing anyone with a brain should bet their life on. I have yet to see solid evidence of a "mouse" gun bullet pinballing around in someone's body turning their innards into swiss cheese.
@@The_Fat_Controller. The "bouncing around" has been proven to be total crap with modern terminal ballistics testing. Even with a head shot, a .22 will go straight through the brain and generally be found against the skull on the opposite side. And, that brain shot is the only mouse gun hit that will stop an attacker right away.
Just a thought cops carried a 32 sw for years. J.m.b. modeled the 32 acp after it
When Theodore Roosevelt was the NYPD Police Commissioner he standardized the department on a .32 Colt revolver, so yes, police used .32s for many years. Doesn't mean they were a good choice.
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I make the overwhelming majority of my youtube videos with .22LR, because it is so inexpensive, and because i have a CMMG bravo 22 lr conversion kit that works in my ARs.
While LC9 exists, there is no legitimate reason to step any lower than 9mm. For the "well actually" brigade, yes, disabled geriatrics, handicapped women, and small children may not be strong enough, and a miracle from God may have be the other half of the battle with a 380.
I knew a guy that was shot between the eyes with a.25 had small scar.
Yes, and when I was on AD in USN Medical Corps we had a patient who survived a torso hit with a 20 mm round. Single anecdotes prove nothing.
A hot-loaded, locked-breech 380 can offer 300 ft lbs of energy and reliable expansion of a hp and adequate penetration, while being 5x4" and 10 ozs. there is no need at all to have a smaller gun. You can save a 40c per shot by getting a very similar gun in 22lr and doing a lot of your practicing with it. There is no reason to settle for the 60-120 ft lbs of .22lr, .25 ACP, .32 ACP, when you can easily hit 3-5x that hard. The 300 ft lb load is still going to fail to stop about 1 guy in 4, (with a single chest hit) which is twice as good a performance as the mouse guns can deliver. That's about what factory 9mm jhps achieve, from belt-guns.
A hollowbased 50 gr bullet made out of soft, 6066 aluminum rod, with a drill or a lathe, can be reliably and safely driven to 1650 fps in a locked-breech 380. Yes, the aluminum bullet does foul' the rifling grooves a little bit, but there's no reason to care about that, since you wont be firing more than 7 shots in any sort of survivable encounter when using a pocket pistol. Also you can create a grease groove around the bullet and fill that groove with Alox/beeswax bullet-lube and greatly reduce the fouling. No, you dont have to practice with your actual carry ammo, either.
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To your initial story. 25 acp has about the same energy as 22lr from the same barrel length.I have heard of someone who killed a man with one head shot in self defense with a 32 S&W lemon squeezer. 32 S&W has less power than 32 acp. But the european 32 acp were loaded hotter a 70gr bullet at 1050fps was rather the norm. Instead of the obsolete 30 Super Carry which has more pressure than 9mm +p+ and the same recoil than standard 9mm, they should have rather developed a new mouse gun caliber. In 7 mm 280 so to speak 60gr around 1000fps.
Bad bad Leroy Brown 32 gun Jim Croce
Love the song, but I'll carry something bigger.
Mouse 🐁 guns are for mice 🐭 not a 200 lb determined attacker!
What about a quality wrist rocket 😂