no its not the purpose was provide a template to for the fantasy sub-genre of true genre had create #soft reboot 1/2 seasons of the original star trek series or true anthological sifi dies DS9 IN CLUDED
Garak was playing Sisko all along. He never contacted his operatives on Cardassia as he knew that was useless hope. He also knew the fake video was highly likely to be detected. His plan was to kill the Romulan Senator all along. Garak just knew Sisko needed these fictions so he could do the bloody work that HAD TO BE DONE!
someone mentioned that garak was the one who sold the data rod to sisko, why give it away for free when you can get biometic gel for it, lol. I never thought of that but it fits in so well with how garak played sisko.
Bjorick But Garak isn’t particularly greedy, whatever his faults. He is still ideologically opposed to the dominion, who killed his father and destroyed his legacy. You can see the gel as the price he was willing to pay, and probably had to pay, to get the rod and to secure the plot.
Sisko used Garak as an excuse, he knew what kind tactics Garak would use and he allowed it. At the end of the episode Sisko wasn't really angry at Garak, he was mad at himself, at his loss of ideals. Garak was his excuse, if he had Garak do the dirty work, Sisko could wash his hands of it like Pontius pilate. The end of the episode was Sisko coming to terms with the fact that he was as guilty, if not more guilty than Garak.
I always though the "It's a fake" line was brilliantly delivered. Romulans are basically Vulcans with emotions cranked up to 100% They can fly into a rage quite easily. Vreenak was most likely fuming with rage because of the attempted deception to the point that his voice broke.
I realise now this is the scene where Garak manipulated Sisko in to getting the biomimetic gel. There was no third party selling the rod to Garak in exchange for the gel, Garak had the rod already! Garak needed the gel to construct the bomb he used to destroy Vreenak's shuttle.
@daemonicpotato Speculation that in my opinion is the most likely. Garak is former Obsidian Order. Why would he need a third party to obtain a rod that, for someone in Garak's position is easy to obtain. He would already have it in my view. He had to CONVINCE Sisko that this was the only source, to make it so desperate that Sisko would have no choice but to give over the gel. The looks Garak gives Sisko when Sisko initially refuses and says to drop the whole thing.....Garak is trying to calculate if he has maybe gone too far and scuttled the whole endeavour. When Sisko then relents and says "There isn't that much Gel blah blah." Garak says "I believe the quantity is open for negotiation." Funny that. I would say its open to negotiation because Garak knows he'll get enough gel regardless to make a sufficiently powerful bomb to incinerate Vreenak's shuttle. Garak is THE manipulator. Its what he excels at and its one of the reasons Sisko is so pissed with him in the end, because Garak was so utterly convincing and good at what he does. That's my personal take anyway. And to be honest, it fits with exactly who Garak is. As a character he doesn't do half measures; every step is carefully planned and calculated to a meticulous conclusion :)
LOVE this episode. In the Pale Moonlight is my favorite episode of any and ALL Trek, series or movies. Garak and Sisko at their absolute BEST. Great great writing!
This episode is absolutely brilliant. Fantastic writing and great performances by Sisko, Garak, and the Romulan Senator. As close to perfection as any star trek episode of any series has ever approached. Even the title "In the pale moonlight" fits so perfect. Bravo.
My key takeaway from this episode, and other episodes in this series (Extreme Measures) was the answer to the question, "What is the Federation willing to do in order to preserve their utopia?" They will do anything.
Brooks and Robinson had such a phenomenal chemistry in this episode as well, and I think that tends to get overlooked a lot. It's honestly my favorite Star Trek simply because it does go where most shows like Star Trek: TOS and TNG can't. A gambit, but a good one. To me, this is also what makes Sisko a bit better than Picard, though both are fantastic. Picard could never do that I think while Sisko could.
Piccard always fell back on the Prime Directive and “Federation principles”. And he had a view of the Federation that wasn’t quite realistic. Sisko wasn't that naive. He destroyed a whole planet to route a Maquis cell. Killing a Romulan Senator was a shock for him but he also recognized that it had to be done. He used Garak just as much as Garak used him. He just didn’t realize how far Garak would go. And when he did realize what Garak did his sense off righteousness was offended. But in the end he achieved his objective. And he understood that bringing the Romulans into the war trumped his sense of fair play and Federation ethics. Excellent episode.
Picard is a preachy schoolboy, a perfect captain for peacetime - I love him, but TNG episodes gravitating around military conflicts always show his shortcomings related to his stiff morals and blindness to the reality of the situation. Chain of command is a fantastic example - he and his crew are completely unprepared for combat and he doesn't even realize this. He is more willing to stick to his morals and take the crew down with him - as a result costing both sides of the conflict countless lifes, than to face the truth, consider the consequences and reevaluate his stance. He is more of a symbol than an actual sensible human being. Sisko is better, but still a hypocrite - like when he slaps Garak for killing the Romulan senator without realizing that one life is nothing compared to millions of Romulans that will inevitably die if Sisko's (and ultimately Starfleet's) plan to plunge them into war will succeed. In the last seasons of DS9 the hypocrisy and preachiness of the senior officers become appalling, especially Sisko's and Bashir's. Section 31 are necessary and you aren't any better anyways, face it.
What I love about thi s episode is it effectively put Cisco on trial with you the audience as judge and jury And regardless of your decision the mirror is staring back at you asking you what you would do in his situation
We needed Avery Brooks and Patrick Stewart in a movie along with the dude who plays Dukat and the rest of both casts. Huge huge mistakes made at movie level....huuuuuge. Damn they had TNG, DS9 and even Voyager all in the 90s/00s which could have spawned like 10 great movies if written right. They needed a Kevin Fiegie of their own
DS9 is my favorite Trek series ever and this episode is by far the best episode of any star trek series, i never got the fan hate for DS9 but i think a lot of it had to do with the religious undertones of the series. Where starfleet is a secular society, you had a StarFleet officer assuming the role of a religious leader for a non federation world, to me it just made the drama of the series that much better and human.
@mike carson ... BECAUSE IT'S ALWAYS ABOUT RACE, RIGHT? I guess that's why Voyager was also not liked, because Janeway is a woman, right? And I guess Enterprise wasn't well-liked either, because Archer is.... well, shit.
@mike carson By "some" I assume you mean a vast minority where it was based on race and gender and not just because the shows were radically different from TNG, right? You are doing what I see a lot of people are doing and that's putting words in people's mouths, or thoughts in their heads, as it were. You assume that this is why people didn't like those shows and sure, for some people it probably was, but some people also think that drinking turpentine is healthy. That doesn't mean that every person trying to be healthy drink turpentine. It doesn't mean that most do. "Some" is such a vague term, but people give so much attention to "some" that they're treated as if they're the majority. That's the power of social media. "Some" don't even have to be vocal, other people will be vocal *about* them. Btw, bringing Trump into this reveals your ignorance and naivete.
I dunno what y’all are talking about... among everyone I knew, *DS9* was instantly and massively loved. To the point that after _”The Visitor”_ my best friend called me all _”whoa man”..._ same for this episode, especially the cut to black when he erases the log, genius.
"Now remember, when things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. 'Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is." The Outlaw Josey Wales (1976)
I am constantly reminded of a legal principle called the doctrine of competing harms with this episode. It states that in the rare event that you cause less human injury by breaking the law than by following it, you are allowed to break the law. It is what's called an affirmative defence, and the burden of proof shifts to the defence on such cases. However, given that the Dominon routinely killed people by the millions simply because they were afraid of being hunted down by all solids, even when there was no evidence of hostile intent, and every chance that if someone had attacked them, the Federation would have been among the very first to rush to their aid, I would have acted as SIsko did. The deciding factor in this case is the clear threat and clear demonstration of ability, opprotunity, and jeopardy from the Dominion. Where it is easy to go wrong is when one stretches that to include situation where one or more of ability, opportunity, and/or jeopardy are not present. The Romulans demonstrated this but by deliberate omission, a much shakier justification for what Sisko and Garrack did. But it is still not a pleasant situation or one to be sought after. I have a friend who has been in combat who said that the worst part of war or individual lethal combat was that to survive it in the real world, while the fight was on, you had to become the kind of person you would normally never want to be. I think this episode shows this aspect of war very well.
I don't like squeaky clean utopia's, i don't trust them. For some one to be leaving in Paradise somebody else (or a lot of people) have to live in Hell to do the providing and the clean up. So i watch stories who are morally ambiguous, that tarnish the main characters, that make me reconsider their status as heroes, i can live with it. Because i can live with it. I can live with it.
They're not good men - that's the point. When they commit these sins, they are violating their core principles, and the very soul of the thing they seek to protect. You may argue, yes, at the time, the ends justify the means. However, never forget it is a slow burn - such actions lead to a gradual erosion of the values at the heart of the nation (in this case the UFP), so don't be surprised when the society and ideals you seek to protect are gradually destroyed from within by the very people who think they're protecting them. I understand Sisko was in a terrible situation thrust upon him against his will, but his morality was compromised. He failed in his duty as a Starfleet officer. Don't get me wrong, I love Sisko and I forgive him due to the extraordinarily terrible war the Federation was waging, but evil is evil. In the short term, his actions will help the war effort. But in the long term? What if Sisko's sin becomes public? The Romulans will quite likely demand justice - another war may even break out. People will also certainly lose trust and faith in the ideals of the UFP. You see the same thing happening today in the U.S. We're well aware of our nation's sins, and very few people trust anything from the government. How can you? "Look what they've done!"
this is one of my favorite episodes, it turns the preachy "The ends never justify the means." How far are willing to go to survive. the thin black line of morality very wide and very gray when everything is on the a knifes edge.
I think there is one officer on DS9 who would have understood and agreed with Sisko's final conclusion: Miles O'Brien. After all, he was the one who said to a Cardassian, "It's not you I hate, Cardassian. It's what I became because of you."
I believe that Sisko knew all along what Garak was capable of once that Garak was "unleashed'. He's angry that he, deep down knew this, and yet he let slip...
There are two ways to interpret this: 1) Sisko went to Garak, knowing full well the extents to which Garak would go to accomplish the mission and Sisko's conscience needed some else at whose feet to lay the unclean ethic of it; or 2) Garak realizing that Cardassia's demise is rapidly nearing with each day that it lives under Dominion rule, knew all too well the need to bring the Romulans in on the Federation side of the war to end Dominion presence in the Alpha quadrant, and was waiting for the Federation to "get there". Once Sisko approached him, Garak was merely manipulating Sisko every step of the way. There are strong indicia for either scenario to be at work. The third possibility is that Sisko approaching Garak brought Garak to the inevitability of needing to undertake the steps that we see unfold.
_DS9_ is not the best _Star Trek_ series - but the best _Star Trek_ episodes are _DS9._ _"In The Pale Moonlight"_ is an all-time franchise Top 5 episode.
Always liked the perspective of this episode. "Every man has his price" indeed. What will you do to stop a war that you started and are currently losing? Casualties mounting. The very quadrant at risk? Memories of losing your wife aboard ship returning? How many families know the same now? Yeah. Man might take some pretty drastic steps to try and fix that. I agree with the analogy you chose. "It was too big", and a war that decides the fate of half a galaxy is pretty damn big.
One of my favorite episodes. I do t know why you can be on both side of the so-called “camps” of trekkies I like the idea that humanity is pushing towards a more utopia-minded humanist society... but why can’t Star Trek be about that and also be about the struggles to keep that society protected from alien races that don’t agree with Federation sentiments. That’s the best Trek IMO... deep space nine is by far the best series in my opinion.
As I may seem arrogant, in my mind something is only morally reprehensible if it's motivated by evil. Ben's and Garak's crimes were for VERY good reasons, and what Garak did near the end of the episode, did work out properly. I don't see how people can be so bothered by Ben's line on learning to live with it. It is a claim that shows one understands that reason is more important than "morality".
A favorite episode of mine. One of the elements of the episode in my opinion is the contrast between theoretical, abstract ethics, and the ethics of the concrete, of day to day reality. As Sisko stated, he was already involved in a very messy, very bloody business. Is the choice less controversial if you believe in the superiority of the Federation system over that of their opponents? And easier to make if you personally feel responsible for each of the deaths, particularly those on the Federation side? Out of context, it may be easy to say the actions of Sisko and Garak were unethical and immoral. In context, it is not as simple a question.
I like what you said here. For me I always thought to myself that Sisko was correct about the Dominion. We as the audience have more information about them than any characters on the show. The Dominion thinks long term they will give up ambition in the short term in order to win in the long term. So for now they leave the Romulans alone but in the end they would conquer them. So in a way he was doing them a favour though I doubt they would see it that way.
Actually morally, it is simple. Sisco lied, let guilty men go unpunished, lied to his friends and colleagues. Accessory to, two murders. Falsifying documents. With the blessing of his superiors, I might add. Sisco willingly & knowingly was comited acts of omission and commission. In violation of his personal morality and duty as a starfleet officer. Now did the ends justify the means? And if they did is it wrong? Yes. Was it necessary? Yes!
I had no idea until just now that the glass Sisko is holding at the end of the episode is the Cibi double whisky glass by Arnolfo di Cambio. The same glass that Decker drinks out of in Blade Runner. That is awesome.
Sisko chose the needs of the many over his own integrity, the needs of the one. Is that truly morally reprehensible? Is there such a judgement in war? War is about killing people and destroying things. A large part of it is gathering intelligence and manipulating the intelligence gathered by your enemies and yes, your friends. Perhaps Sisko wasn’t the captain DS9 deserved, but he was the one they needed.
15:59 : Putting the need for peace between the Cardassian Union and the Federation ahead of Bajor. If this isn't among the best examples of the principle "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one or the few", then I don't know what is.
One of the very best episodes of DS9, one of the very best in Star Trek in general, and one of the very best in the genre and, arguably, breaks genres. Yes-- because of its universal message of overcoming the deepest, darkest contradictions and accomplishing ends through means in order o , MAYBE, save billions of lives..
Best episode of DS9 and one of THE BEST episodes of Trek Garak is my favorite character and he's in top form here rarely do him and Sisko get much time to interact but it was brilliant seeing them clashing. The episode shows how hard it is to uphold the ideals of Starfleet in extremis and how in order to do what needs to be done drastic actions must be taken. But does that make it Ok? Tremendous.
For the greater good. I think a lot of us wouldn't hesitate to bend, or even break, some rules and laws when the time came to be morally ambiguous... or so we would like to believe. However, when it comes right down to it, we start asking ourselves which choice is for the greater good. Sure, Sisko prevented the dominion from taking over the alpha by doing some things that were against his Starfleet principles but if you think about it, was that for the greater good? If he held fast to those principles, a lot more blood would have been shed in the war but he would have shown everyone "what's right is right, no matter the circumstances," and in doing so, prevented even more blood from being spilled further down the road.
Not true. The Federation and Klingon Alliance were losing the war. The reason Sisko was willing to cross those lines was because he kept having to go over the casualty lists and came to realize that the only hope for victory was to bring the Romulan Empire into the war. If he didn't, then every name that he looked over in those endless casualty lists would have been lost in vain.
Or something even harder: Churchill allowing the city of Coventry to be bombed (without giving an evacuation order or setting a trap for the bombers), to avoid giving away the fact that the German military's cyphers had been broken & the British were reading the Wehrmacht & Luftwaffe's 'mail'.
Actually Coverntry wasnt by far hardest decision of Winston Churchill - those were his people who empowered and him to fight a war and win on their behalf... there was much worse decision - and that was MERS EL KEBIR. When Churchill decided that if French fleet does not sail out either with British, or at very least does not make for French west indies or USA - it need to be sunk no matter what. Admiral Darlan issued orders to scuttle the fleet if germans attempted to seize it - but that was simply something he could not afford to trust. thus when French commander of Mers el Kebir decided to do nothing - on Churchills orders the british fleet opened fire on their ally and killed thousands of french soldiers. (at the same time - in all british ports, all french vessels were seized - and later placed under command of free french like Admiral Jaujard ) Churchill cried when reporting about it in parliament he expected to be condemned and fired... instead he received standing ovations. Few days after Roosewelt decided to give Churchill the destroyers under Land Lease, while just week before he was attempting to persuade canadians to demand that if Britain surrenders all its fleet MUST flee to North America...
+Bird0Prey5 Truman made the worst choice possible, the point that millions of peoples lives would of been lost with the invasion of Japan was a red herring as Japan was already unable to wage war other than defense, it had been kicked out of China, it had no navy or airforce left, no oil or coal and almost all manufacturing had been destroyed by the firebombing of the majority of Japan's cities the most infamous being Tokyo which claimed some 200,000+ lives. None of the major generals or admirals agreed with nuking of Japan as it wasn't needed as they were already defeated and were purely civilian targets making it a war crime by the very definition of the act.
This is one of my favorite episodes in the entire franchise of "Star Trek" mostly due to the reasons you mentioned.Humanity will STILL be humanity in 400 years(assuming we last that long).Another episode that I think in a way is almost prophetic is "Past Tense".The two part episode goes back to the 2020's when so many people were unemployed that the moneyed class put them into "Relocation' Centers and basically just forgot about them.Like I said...prophetic!!!,
Because DS9 is stationary the military strategy games add the necessity of defence deployment battles and with a civilian population allows for much more latitude in parallel plot lines happening. Eg. Allows for covert and black market activities Garak and Quark story lines can be explored and brought more forward. Multiply storylines is not done much in Sci-Fi. Interplanetary civilian commerce and military mix broadens the storylines scope of possibilities. DS9 is the best of the franchise for this. Wild West Town with a fort.
Check out our panel discussion on this episode at Trekker's Delight: Opposite Treks - Ep. 4 - In The Pale Moonlight (Part 2) ruclips.net/video/vWl_9Rkn-BE/видео.html
Not Sisko's fault, the Dominion pretty much decided the best way to deal with solids is to control them with an iron fist. once the wormhole was discovered no way they weren't going to the other side.
Sisko did nothing wrong. Freedom isn't always defended in the light. Sometimes, someone has to get their hands dirty in a dark alley somewhere. Doing things thst would abhor those who are being protected. But they will get to continue to be angels in paradise because Sisko can learn to live with it.
"It's a Faaaaake". I loved that moment almost as much as I loved Garak planting a bomb, so consistent with him and so different from Star Trek prior. Sisko's monologues really set the tone too.
I am not sure what to think of this review. I didn't like the tone of the first 12 (or so) minutes but the latter part was great. It make me think more about the episode though. And you certainly knew what you were talking about. Thanks for expanding my view.
This was my favorite episode and cements Captain cisco's, in my opinion, as the second best star trek captain. It was real. it was morally legitimate, a great departure from the B.S. ideal society/values stuff that Star Trek pushes. FYI....this episode is a great topic of study for Kantian vs Utilitarian ethics. (famous philosophy/morality topics in higher education)
This is reason why I despise war! It's baseless politics that makes some evil decisions like the WW2 Japanese American Citizens camps that makes me wonder about today's politicians actions!
One of the four best episodes of TNG era Trek. Arguably the best episode of DS9; only "In The Cards" is a challenger. Kudos for highlighting this episode.
Overall, DS9 is my second favourite series after TNG. I remember watching this episode when it first aired, and I thought, wow. Garek could have starred in his own series! Although I'm on the fence about Avery Brooks in general, (William Shatner school of overacting) I thought his tour de force was incredible and the Sisco/Garak relationship covered the gamut of emotions, actions, and consequences. I think having even less of Dax would have made the show stronger. Just like all the other characters were basically cardboard figure of themselves, especially Quark
One of the best episodes out of any Trek show. This one featured Avery Brooks and really let him go. His acting in this one was worthy of an Emmy I thought. And the look at the dark side of Federation wartime politics was also cool. Let us know that the Federation isn’t all sunshine and rainbows.
I would have loved to have seen a follow on to this episode. Perhaps based on someone in or near Garaks shop who overheard Sisko going off at Garak, and then trying to blackmail Sisko or something like that.
Wow, can’t the guy comment on an actor without being called a racist? It really has gotten to the point where using the word as an attack on someone betrays a low level of intelligence, or someone who has nothing of importance to say whatsoever. Sisko is still my favorite Captain. From the start with his disdain for Picard it was clear that this guy wasn’t going to be another happy happy joy joy Federation clone. He was basically thrown into a “Wild West” situation and told to bring order to the town (DS9) and then the wormhole opened up making DS9 the sudden new center of the galaxy. Throughout the entire series he has to deal with situations that would make Picard’s toes curl. Situations where a nice speech won’t fix everything. He became the firewall that blocked the Dominion and he did it at the sacrifice of his own integrity in some cases. No captain has dealt with as much.
The very best Trek episode in my opinion!!!! TOS - The City on the Edge of Forever S1 E26!!, TAS - Yesteryear, S1 E2, TNG - The Inner Light S5 E25, DS9 - In the Pale Moonlight, S6 E19, VOY - Year in Hell, parts 1 & 2, S4 E8 & E9, ENT - Carbon Creek, S2 E2.
I don't get your point about the mirror universe in DS9, it was wonderful. Plus I had no idea "It's a fake" was meme. This episode was great, as was MOST of DS9 , easily the strongest series of Star Trek to date.
Could it be that this situation gave Garak the opportunity to eliminate one of Enabran Tain’s enemies, in this case Vreenak? Frankly, the frontier, which was dominated by bloody Cardies for half a century, leaves no place for the standard Federation niceties we see in TNG. Bajor has their own issues, and they’re messy ones.
This was one the darkest episodes of all of Star Trek and one I keep coming back to. Avery Brooks gave a tour de force performance.
no its not the purpose was provide a template to for the fantasy sub-genre of true genre had create #soft reboot 1/2 seasons of the original star trek series or true anthological sifi dies DS9 IN
CLUDED
adam lovell ... you broke my brain.
Brooks does what he always does, yell and scream. Robinson completely steals every scene.
Agree agree agree
@@adamlovell5863 gibberish.
Garak was playing Sisko all along. He never contacted his operatives on Cardassia as he knew that was useless hope. He also knew the fake video was highly likely to be detected. His plan was to kill the Romulan Senator all along. Garak just knew Sisko needed these fictions so he could do the bloody work that HAD TO BE DONE!
I have always believed this too.
someone mentioned that garak was the one who sold the data rod to sisko, why give it away for free when you can get biometic gel for it, lol. I never thought of that but it fits in so well with how garak played sisko.
Bjorick But Garak isn’t particularly greedy, whatever his faults. He is still ideologically opposed to the dominion, who killed his father and destroyed his legacy. You can see the gel as the price he was willing to pay, and probably had to pay, to get the rod and to secure the plot.
That's a lot of assertations on your part! Since he never admitted to this, you are assuming all these.
Sisko used Garak as an excuse, he knew what kind tactics Garak would use and he allowed it. At the end of the episode Sisko wasn't really angry at Garak, he was mad at himself, at his loss of ideals. Garak was his excuse, if he had Garak do the dirty work, Sisko could wash his hands of it like Pontius pilate. The end of the episode was Sisko coming to terms with the fact that he was as guilty, if not more guilty than Garak.
Avery Brooks and Andrew Robinson were both brilliant in this episode. Best Star trek episode and series ever.
I always though the "It's a fake" line was brilliantly delivered.
Romulans are basically Vulcans with emotions cranked up to 100%
They can fly into a rage quite easily. Vreenak was most likely fuming with rage because of the attempted deception to the point that his voice broke.
This episode is just one example of why DS9 is hands down, my favorite in the franchise. And why Garrak is one of my favorite all time characters.
I realise now this is the scene where Garak manipulated Sisko in to getting the biomimetic gel. There was no third party selling the rod to Garak in exchange for the gel, Garak had the rod already! Garak needed the gel to construct the bomb he used to destroy Vreenak's shuttle.
Bob Page oh shit
Garak was a genius.
YUP!! :) Presumably, the gel allowed Garak to create an exotic explosive that wouldn't be detected by sensors aboard the Romulan shuttle.
Maybe he just traded the gel for the explosive?
@daemonicpotato Speculation that in my opinion is the most likely. Garak is former Obsidian Order. Why would he need a third party to obtain a rod that, for someone in Garak's position is easy to obtain. He would already have it in my view. He had to CONVINCE Sisko that this was the only source, to make it so desperate that Sisko would have no choice but to give over the gel. The looks Garak gives Sisko when Sisko initially refuses and says to drop the whole thing.....Garak is trying to calculate if he has maybe gone too far and scuttled the whole endeavour. When Sisko then relents and says "There isn't that much Gel blah blah." Garak says "I believe the quantity is open for negotiation." Funny that. I would say its open to negotiation because Garak knows he'll get enough gel regardless to make a sufficiently powerful bomb to incinerate Vreenak's shuttle. Garak is THE manipulator. Its what he excels at and its one of the reasons Sisko is so pissed with him in the end, because Garak was so utterly convincing and good at what he does. That's my personal take anyway. And to be honest, it fits with exactly who Garak is. As a character he doesn't do half measures; every step is carefully planned and calculated to a meticulous conclusion :)
"You look out the window of Starfleet Headquarters and you see paradise. Well, it's easy to be a Saint in paradise.."
After this episode first aired, my best friend and I spent days talking about it in school. We both loved it and for me, it’s the best DS9 episode.
LOVE this episode. In the Pale Moonlight is my favorite episode of any and ALL Trek, series or movies. Garak and Sisko at their absolute BEST. Great great writing!
This episode is absolutely brilliant. Fantastic writing and great performances by Sisko, Garak, and the Romulan Senator. As close to perfection as any star trek episode of any series has ever approached. Even the title "In the pale moonlight" fits so perfect. Bravo.
My key takeaway from this episode, and other episodes in this series (Extreme Measures) was the answer to the question, "What is the Federation willing to do in order to preserve their utopia?" They will do anything.
"Someone has to protect people like you from a universe that doesn't share your sense of right and wrong." - Section 31
Brooks and Robinson had such a phenomenal chemistry in this episode as well, and I think that tends to get overlooked a lot. It's honestly my favorite Star Trek simply because it does go where most shows like Star Trek: TOS and TNG can't. A gambit, but a good one. To me, this is also what makes Sisko a bit better than Picard, though both are fantastic. Picard could never do that I think while Sisko could.
Piccard always fell back on the Prime Directive and “Federation principles”. And he had a view of the Federation that wasn’t quite realistic. Sisko wasn't that naive. He destroyed a whole planet to route a Maquis cell. Killing a Romulan Senator was a shock for him but he also recognized that it had to be done. He used Garak just as much as Garak used him. He just didn’t realize how far Garak would go. And when he did realize what Garak did his sense off righteousness was offended. But in the end he achieved his objective. And he understood that bringing the Romulans into the war trumped his sense of fair play and Federation ethics. Excellent episode.
Picard is a preachy schoolboy, a perfect captain for peacetime - I love him, but TNG episodes gravitating around military conflicts always show his shortcomings related to his stiff morals and blindness to the reality of the situation. Chain of command is a fantastic example - he and his crew are completely unprepared for combat and he doesn't even realize this. He is more willing to stick to his morals and take the crew down with him - as a result costing both sides of the conflict countless lifes, than to face the truth, consider the consequences and reevaluate his stance. He is more of a symbol than an actual sensible human being.
Sisko is better, but still a hypocrite - like when he slaps Garak for killing the Romulan senator without realizing that one life is nothing compared to millions of Romulans that will inevitably die if Sisko's (and ultimately Starfleet's) plan to plunge them into war will succeed. In the last seasons of DS9 the hypocrisy and preachiness of the senior officers become appalling, especially Sisko's and Bashir's. Section 31 are necessary and you aren't any better anyways, face it.
From a script, actor, performance point of view, this was truly the greatest episode of DS9.
That Sisko/Gowron segment was worthy of SF Debris. Well done.
Gowron's eyes are the true actor of the show
Only WWE's UnderTaker's glare is more intimidating than Gowron's, because Taker is 6' 8" tall and can, for real, glare into your soul. > = )
Gowron is the only man in the Empire who can stare in Klingon
Gowron has the Klingon version of crazy eyes. I will never forget the expression he makes as Quark is going over finances for the Klingon leadership.
Best stories leave the moral judgment to the viewers. That is episode was the highlight of a very entertaining series. I could watch DS9 forever.
What I love about thi s episode is it effectively put Cisco on trial with you the audience as judge and jury
And regardless of your decision the mirror is staring back at you asking you what you would do in his situation
We needed Avery Brooks and Patrick Stewart in a movie along with the dude who plays Dukat and the rest of both casts.
Huge huge mistakes made at movie level....huuuuuge. Damn they had TNG, DS9 and even Voyager all in the 90s/00s which could have spawned like 10 great movies if written right. They needed a Kevin Fiegie of their own
DS9 is my favorite Trek series ever and this episode is by far the best episode of any star trek series, i never got the fan hate for DS9 but i think a lot of it had to do with the religious undertones of the series. Where starfleet is a secular society, you had a StarFleet officer assuming the role of a religious leader for a non federation world, to me it just made the drama of the series that much better and human.
@mike carson ...
BECAUSE IT'S ALWAYS ABOUT RACE, RIGHT?
I guess that's why Voyager was also not liked, because Janeway is a woman, right?
And I guess Enterprise wasn't well-liked either, because Archer is.... well, shit.
@mike carson "Janeway wasn't like by the fans cause she was a woman!!"
Citation needed.
@mike carson By "some" I assume you mean a vast minority where it was based on race and gender and not just because the shows were radically different from TNG, right? You are doing what I see a lot of people are doing and that's putting words in people's mouths, or thoughts in their heads, as it were. You assume that this is why people didn't like those shows and sure, for some people it probably was, but some people also think that drinking turpentine is healthy. That doesn't mean that every person trying to be healthy drink turpentine. It doesn't mean that most do. "Some" is such a vague term, but people give so much attention to "some" that they're treated as if they're the majority. That's the power of social media. "Some" don't even have to be vocal, other people will be vocal *about* them.
Btw, bringing Trump into this reveals your ignorance and naivete.
I dunno what y’all are talking about... among everyone I knew, *DS9* was instantly and massively loved. To the point that after _”The Visitor”_ my best friend called me all _”whoa man”..._ same for this episode, especially the cut to black when he erases the log, genius.
Squiglypig it’s all they got. What they don’t get is 44 stirred up more racial issues than 45 ever has.
"Here, Senator, have a glass of synthale"
"IT'S A FAAAKE!"
"Now remember, when things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. 'Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is." The Outlaw Josey Wales (1976)
I can watch this episode anytime, anyplace. No big explosions...no action packed sequences.
This is my second favourite DS9 episode ever after Paper Moon. Avery Brooks & Andrew Robinson were both even more wonderful than ever in this one!!
I am constantly reminded of a legal principle called the doctrine of competing harms with this episode. It states that in the rare event that you cause less human injury by breaking the law than by following it, you are allowed to break the law. It is what's called an affirmative defence, and the burden of proof shifts to the defence on such cases. However, given that the Dominon routinely killed people by the millions simply because they were afraid of being hunted down by all solids, even when there was no evidence of hostile intent, and every chance that if someone had attacked them, the Federation would have been among the very first to rush to their aid, I would have acted as SIsko did. The deciding factor in this case is the clear threat and clear demonstration of ability, opprotunity, and jeopardy from the Dominion. Where it is easy to go wrong is when one stretches that to include situation where one or more of ability, opportunity, and/or jeopardy are not present. The Romulans demonstrated this but by deliberate omission, a much shakier justification for what Sisko and Garrack did. But it is still not a pleasant situation or one to be sought after. I have a friend who has been in combat who said that the worst part of war or individual lethal combat was that to survive it in the real world, while the fight was on, you had to become the kind of person you would normally never want to be. I think this episode shows this aspect of war very well.
One of the best episodes ever!
I don't like squeaky clean utopia's, i don't trust them. For some one to be leaving in Paradise somebody else (or a lot of people) have to live in Hell to do the providing and the clean up. So i watch stories who are morally ambiguous, that tarnish the main characters, that make me reconsider their status as heroes, i can live with it. Because i can live with it. I can live with it.
The price of freedom is that good men must commit evil acts that others will not be burdened with such guilt.
They're not good men - that's the point. When they commit these sins, they are violating their core principles, and the very soul of the thing they seek to protect. You may argue, yes, at the time, the ends justify the means. However, never forget it is a slow burn - such actions lead to a gradual erosion of the values at the heart of the nation (in this case the UFP), so don't be surprised when the society and ideals you seek to protect are gradually destroyed from within by the very people who think they're protecting them.
I understand Sisko was in a terrible situation thrust upon him against his will, but his morality was compromised. He failed in his duty as a Starfleet officer. Don't get me wrong, I love Sisko and I forgive him due to the extraordinarily terrible war the Federation was waging, but evil is evil. In the short term, his actions will help the war effort. But in the long term? What if Sisko's sin becomes public? The Romulans will quite likely demand justice - another war may even break out. People will also certainly lose trust and faith in the ideals of the UFP. You see the same thing happening today in the U.S. We're well aware of our nation's sins, and very few people trust anything from the government. How can you? "Look what they've done!"
@@ebannaw piss off, he was left with no choice
this is one of my favorite episodes, it turns the preachy "The ends never justify the means." How far are willing to go to survive. the thin black line of morality very wide and very gray when everything is on the a knifes edge.
You mean - "A review of the BEST episode of Deep Space Nine - and Star Trek, in general."
Damn straight.
I think there is one officer on DS9 who would have understood and agreed with Sisko's final conclusion: Miles O'Brien. After all, he was the one who said to a Cardassian, "It's not you I hate, Cardassian. It's what I became because of you."
Might be my favourite Trek episode ever and I'm a hardcore TNG fan. DS9 went DEEP!
I believe that Sisko knew all along what Garak was capable of once that Garak was "unleashed'. He's angry that he, deep down knew this, and yet he let slip...
There are two ways to interpret this: 1) Sisko went to Garak, knowing full well the extents to which Garak would go to accomplish the mission and Sisko's conscience needed some else at whose feet to lay the unclean ethic of it; or 2) Garak realizing that Cardassia's demise is rapidly nearing with each day that it lives under Dominion rule, knew all too well the need to bring the Romulans in on the Federation side of the war to end Dominion presence in the Alpha quadrant, and was waiting for the Federation to "get there". Once Sisko approached him, Garak was merely manipulating Sisko every step of the way. There are strong indicia for either scenario to be at work. The third possibility is that Sisko approaching Garak brought Garak to the inevitability of needing to undertake the steps that we see unfold.
This episode and Duet are the best episodes of DS9 IMO
_DS9_ is not the best _Star Trek_ series - but the best _Star Trek_ episodes are _DS9._
_"In The Pale Moonlight"_ is an all-time franchise Top 5 episode.
Garak has said he does believe in coincidences, he says they happen everyday. Garek has also said he does not trust them.
the best startrek episode ever.
i really mean, its brillant , and that not a FAAAAAAKE!
I agree with its a good episode. Im torn between this and The Visitor..... One makes me cry and the other shocks me. I love them both.
Always liked the perspective of this episode. "Every man has his price" indeed. What will you do to stop a war that you started and are currently losing? Casualties mounting. The very quadrant at risk? Memories of losing your wife aboard ship returning? How many families know the same now? Yeah. Man might take some pretty drastic steps to try and fix that. I agree with the analogy you chose. "It was too big", and a war that decides the fate of half a galaxy is pretty damn big.
By far my favorite episode.Avery knocked it out of the park in this one.
Easily one of the best episodes of Star Trek. Period.
"The needs of the many outweigh the the needs of the few"
One of my favorite episodes. I do t know why you can be on both side of the so-called “camps” of trekkies I like the idea that humanity is pushing towards a more utopia-minded humanist society... but why can’t Star Trek be about that and also be about the struggles to keep that society protected from alien races that don’t agree with Federation sentiments. That’s the best Trek IMO... deep space nine is by far the best series in my opinion.
As I may seem arrogant, in my mind something is only morally reprehensible if it's motivated by evil. Ben's and Garak's crimes were for VERY good reasons, and what Garak did near the end of the episode, did work out properly. I don't see how people can be so bothered by Ben's line on learning to live with it. It is a claim that shows one understands that reason is more important than "morality".
The first casualty of war is innocence...
This was the most Shakespearian of all the Ds9 episodes
A favorite episode of mine. One of the elements of the episode in my opinion is the contrast between theoretical, abstract ethics, and the ethics of the concrete, of day to day reality. As Sisko stated, he was already involved in a very messy, very bloody business. Is the choice less controversial if you believe in the superiority of the Federation system over that of their opponents? And easier to make if you personally feel responsible for each of the deaths, particularly those on the Federation side? Out of context, it may be easy to say the actions of Sisko and Garak were unethical and immoral. In context, it is not as simple a question.
I like what you said here. For me I always thought to myself that Sisko was correct about the Dominion. We as the audience have more information about them than any characters on the show. The Dominion thinks long term they will give up ambition in the short term in order to win in the long term. So for now they leave the Romulans alone but in the end they would conquer them. So in a way he was doing them a favour though I doubt they would see it that way.
Actually morally, it is simple.
Sisco lied, let guilty men go unpunished, lied to his friends and colleagues.
Accessory to, two murders.
Falsifying documents.
With the blessing of his superiors, I might add.
Sisco willingly & knowingly was comited acts of omission and commission.
In violation of his personal morality and duty as a starfleet officer.
Now did the ends justify the means?
And if they did is it wrong? Yes. Was it necessary? Yes!
I had no idea until just now that the glass Sisko is holding at the end of the episode is the Cibi double whisky glass by Arnolfo di Cambio. The same glass that Decker drinks out of in Blade Runner. That is awesome.
Sisko chose the needs of the many over his own integrity, the needs of the one. Is that truly morally reprehensible? Is there such a judgement in war? War is about killing people and destroying things. A large part of it is gathering intelligence and manipulating the intelligence gathered by your enemies and yes, your friends. Perhaps Sisko wasn’t the captain DS9 deserved, but he was the one they needed.
One of my favourite star trek episodes ever
This is true darkness. Not edgy darkness, not random sci-fi plot device. Simple impossible decisions
15:59 : Putting the need for peace between the Cardassian Union and the Federation ahead of Bajor. If this isn't among the best examples of the principle "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one or the few", then I don't know what is.
One of the very best episodes of DS9, one of the very best in Star Trek in general, and one of the very best in the genre and, arguably, breaks genres. Yes-- because of its universal message of overcoming the deepest, darkest contradictions and accomplishing ends through means in order o , MAYBE, save billions of lives..
Best episode of DS9 and one of THE BEST episodes of Trek
Garak is my favorite character and he's in top form here rarely do him and Sisko get much time to interact but it was brilliant seeing them clashing. The episode shows how hard it is to uphold the ideals of Starfleet in extremis and how in order to do what needs to be done drastic actions must be taken. But does that make it Ok? Tremendous.
Brilliant analysis; I especially enjoyed the conversation between Sisko and Gowron.
All the really good characters in DS9 were the cardassians.
Best Star Trek episode from any series. Can’t go wrong when you use Shakespeare.
For the greater good. I think a lot of us wouldn't hesitate to bend, or even break, some rules and laws when the time came to be morally ambiguous... or so we would like to believe. However, when it comes right down to it, we start asking ourselves which choice is for the greater good. Sure, Sisko prevented the dominion from taking over the alpha by doing some things that were against his Starfleet principles but if you think about it, was that for the greater good? If he held fast to those principles, a lot more blood would have been shed in the war but he would have shown everyone "what's right is right, no matter the circumstances," and in doing so, prevented even more blood from being spilled further down the road.
Not true. The Federation and Klingon Alliance were losing the war. The reason Sisko was willing to cross those lines was because he kept having to go over the casualty lists and came to realize that the only hope for victory was to bring the Romulan Empire into the war. If he didn't, then every name that he looked over in those endless casualty lists would have been lost in vain.
Real life comparison: Truman and the A-Bomb. Still debated till this day.
Or something even harder: Churchill allowing the city of Coventry to be bombed (without giving an evacuation order or setting a trap for the bombers), to avoid giving away the fact that the German military's cyphers had been broken & the British were reading the Wehrmacht & Luftwaffe's 'mail'.
Its nothing like Truman's choice. Shut up dumbass.
Truman had no real choice. He saved both American and Japanese lives using the bombs. It's fact and indisputable.
Actually Coverntry wasnt by far hardest decision of Winston Churchill - those were his people who empowered and him to fight a war and win on their behalf...
there was much worse decision - and that was MERS EL KEBIR.
When Churchill decided that if French fleet does not sail out either with British, or at very least does not make for French west indies or USA - it need to be sunk no matter what. Admiral Darlan issued orders to scuttle the fleet if germans attempted to seize it - but that was simply something he could not afford to trust.
thus when French commander of Mers el Kebir decided to do nothing - on Churchills orders the british fleet opened fire on their ally and killed thousands of french soldiers.
(at the same time - in all british ports, all french vessels were seized - and later placed under command of free french like Admiral Jaujard )
Churchill cried when reporting about it in parliament he expected to be condemned and fired... instead he received standing ovations.
Few days after Roosewelt decided to give Churchill the destroyers under Land Lease, while just week before he was attempting to persuade canadians to demand that if Britain surrenders all its fleet MUST flee to North America...
+Bird0Prey5 Truman made the worst choice possible, the point that millions of peoples lives would of been lost with the invasion of Japan was a red herring as Japan was already unable to wage war other than defense, it had been kicked out of China, it had no navy or airforce left, no oil or coal and almost all manufacturing had been destroyed by the firebombing of the majority of Japan's cities the most infamous being Tokyo which claimed some 200,000+ lives.
None of the major generals or admirals agreed with nuking of Japan as it wasn't needed as they were already defeated and were purely civilian targets making it a war crime by the very definition of the act.
This episode remind me of the poor Francisco in one of the episode of the mickey easy to be a saint in Paradise
This is one of my favorite episodes in the entire franchise of "Star Trek" mostly due to the reasons you mentioned.Humanity will STILL be humanity in 400 years(assuming we last that long).Another episode that I think in a way is almost prophetic is "Past Tense".The two part episode goes back to the 2020's when so many people were unemployed that the moneyed class put them into "Relocation' Centers and basically just forgot about them.Like I said...prophetic!!!,
Because DS9 is stationary the military strategy games add the necessity of defence deployment battles and with a civilian population allows for much more latitude in parallel plot lines happening. Eg. Allows for covert and black market activities Garak and Quark story lines can be explored and brought more forward. Multiply storylines is not done much in Sci-Fi. Interplanetary civilian commerce and military mix broadens the storylines scope of possibilities. DS9 is the best of the franchise for this. Wild West Town with a fort.
This is a very good review - 'In The Pale Moonlight' is one of my favourite Trek episodea
Check out our panel discussion on this episode at Trekker's Delight: Opposite Treks - Ep. 4 - In The Pale Moonlight (Part 2) ruclips.net/video/vWl_9Rkn-BE/видео.html
*Kirk* or *Picard?*
*Sisko.*
*Voyager* or *Scott Bacula?*
*Babylon 5* and *Farscape.*
Not Sisko's fault, the Dominion pretty much decided the best way to deal with solids is to control them with an iron fist. once the wormhole was discovered no way they weren't going to the other side.
Cisco got exactly what he deserved, because he danced with the devil, Garrick.
Sisko did nothing wrong. Freedom isn't always defended in the light. Sometimes, someone has to get their hands dirty in a dark alley somewhere. Doing things thst would abhor those who are being protected. But they will get to continue to be angels in paradise because Sisko can learn to live with it.
Its one of few TNG era episodes that can stand next to TOS. Excellent writing, excellent performances from Brooks and Robinson.
"It's a Faaaaake". I loved that moment almost as much as I loved Garak planting a bomb, so consistent with him and so different from Star Trek prior. Sisko's monologues really set the tone too.
I am not sure what to think of this review. I didn't like the tone of the first 12 (or so) minutes but the latter part was great. It make me think more about the episode though. And you certainly knew what you were talking about. Thanks for expanding my view.
My theory is that we are living in the mirror universe. Terrans seem more like us than the Federation
Well of course we'd be living in the mirror universe, it's more realistic -unlike the Communists fairy tale of the prime universe.
@@adumbedgyname7158 it's not communism dude, it started off as full socialism till the replicator came in tng
0:08 IT'S REAL!!!!
This was my favorite episode and cements Captain cisco's, in my opinion, as the second best star trek captain. It was real. it was morally legitimate, a great departure from the B.S. ideal society/values stuff that Star Trek pushes. FYI....this episode is a great topic of study for Kantian vs Utilitarian ethics. (famous philosophy/morality topics in higher education)
This is reason why I despise war! It's baseless politics that makes some evil decisions like the WW2 Japanese American Citizens camps that makes me wonder about today's politicians actions!
And you know.... the rape of nanking and Japan's biological experimentation.
One of the four best episodes of TNG era Trek. Arguably the best episode of DS9; only "In The Cards" is a challenger. Kudos for highlighting this episode.
Overall, DS9 is my second favourite series after TNG. I remember watching this episode when it first aired, and I thought, wow. Garek could have starred in his own series! Although I'm on the fence about Avery Brooks in general, (William Shatner school of overacting) I thought his tour de force was incredible and the Sisco/Garak relationship covered the gamut of emotions, actions, and consequences. I think having even less of Dax would have made the show stronger. Just like all the other characters were basically cardboard figure of themselves, especially Quark
How did Sisko explain the biogel? Bashir said that he was going to report it.
@J Jackson No, Bashir told Sisko that he was going to make a report.
Sisko: logic
Gowron: eyes
eyes always wins
'You're my Klingon bitch!" Priceless!
One of the best episodes out of any Trek show. This one featured Avery Brooks and really let him go. His acting in this one was worthy of an Emmy I thought. And the look at the dark side of Federation wartime politics was also cool. Let us know that the Federation isn’t all sunshine and rainbows.
Rule No. 98 of Acquisition....personally written by WWE Hall of Famer 'Million Dollar Man' Ted DiBiase. This makes Quark the 'Million Bar Ferengi'. XD
The doctrine of competing harms.
Gowron's eyes, man.
I would have loved to have seen a follow on to this episode. Perhaps based on someone in or near Garaks shop who overheard Sisko going off at Garak, and then trying to blackmail Sisko or something like that.
Wow, can’t the guy comment on an actor without being called a racist? It really has gotten to the point where using the word as an attack on someone betrays a low level of intelligence, or someone who has nothing of importance to say whatsoever.
Sisko is still my favorite Captain. From the start with his disdain for Picard it was clear that this guy wasn’t going to be another happy happy joy joy Federation clone.
He was basically thrown into a “Wild West” situation and told to bring order to the town (DS9) and then the wormhole opened up making DS9 the sudden new center of the galaxy. Throughout the entire series he has to deal with situations that would make Picard’s toes curl. Situations where a nice speech won’t fix everything.
He became the firewall that blocked the Dominion and he did it at the sacrifice of his own integrity in some cases.
No captain has dealt with as much.
Actually Garrak is a firm believer in coincidence. He believes that coincidences happen every day. That doesn't mean he trusts coincidence though.
The very best Trek episode in my opinion!!!! TOS - The City on the Edge of Forever S1 E26!!, TAS - Yesteryear, S1 E2,
TNG - The Inner Light S5 E25, DS9 - In the Pale Moonlight, S6 E19, VOY - Year in Hell, parts 1 & 2, S4 E8 & E9, ENT - Carbon Creek, S2 E2.
In my mind, the morality or immorality of what Sisko did doesn't matter. What does matter is the fact that all war is based on deception.
I don't get your point about the mirror universe in DS9, it was wonderful.
Plus I had no idea "It's a fake" was meme.
This episode was great, as was MOST of DS9 , easily the strongest series of Star Trek to date.
Could it be that this situation gave Garak the opportunity to eliminate one of Enabran Tain’s enemies, in this case Vreenak?
Frankly, the frontier, which was dominated by bloody Cardies for half a century, leaves no place for the standard Federation niceties we see in TNG. Bajor has their own issues, and they’re messy ones.
Garek would smoke Sisko in a fistfight. He allowed Sisko to land a few blows and blocked one just to prove hes no pushover
He couldn't tell Dax because the next host would know
Bravo! An excellent review.
Well said, sir.
DS9 MAY BE BEST ST SERIES THOUGH I LOVE TNG...BUT GARAK IS THE ABSOLUTE BEST !
The best episode of the best series of the entire Star Trek universe.
And everyone on Discovery knows of "Section 31", which is ludicrously stupid!!
What the name of the intro track?
Wish I could remember, my composer came from the Ukraine, I have no idea if she is okay or not :(
NJ4K understood, shame there is no more detail available, it’s a very commanding and evocative piece of music.
Mind doing "The Wounded"? A similarly "dark" episode.
Sure thing I will do it next time. :)
Honestly I HATE Discovery... so much. But... buuuuut. The way they handle the mirrorverse is so good.