^^this! Thank you for saying that, it’s always a goal of mine to make things easily digestible, no fluff, just information. Personally, I love coffee stuff, but 15+ minutes for a video for me is a rarity because I don’t want to watch reviews or information videos they don’t get straight to it.
Definitely think commerical grinders are overkill or at least have significant diminishing returns. With the current state of hobbyist coffee, I feel like the people who are spending a lot of money on their setups are chasing clarity over body so it makes the 807 Lab Sweet grinder somewhat unappetizing for prosumers. That being said, I really enjoy watching videos on grinders that serve different purposes otther than at-home coffee making so I'm looking forward to more grinder reviews!
I’m with you Andrew, and I’m a clarity chaser for sure. Don’t get me wrong, I love texture in my espresso but just need a better balance. Thanks for watching and the kind words! Hopefully some more videos in this range will be made in the future.
I have the Lab Sweet in a small coffee shop. I use the grinder exclusively for espresso with light-medium SO. For me a good espresso is a balanced one because I have customers who are trying for the first time light roast SO. I have been using the grinder for about half a year and I can tell you that I get the best results with 19 grams in, a 2.5 ratio at 8bar, in about 23-25s Maybe you can try it and tell me what you think.
I own an 807 LS, and it keeps improving in its shot quality over time, therefore I think there is some truth to the seasoning aspect you question- especially with cast burrs (vs machined/coated) as I think the character of producing fines would change somewhat dramatically with a cast burr that has been well seasoned. Recommendations I have read have been a minimum of 20Kg. I find the clarity a couple of notches above the Niche I used for years, without the sourness that the Niche would bring. Body slightly less than Niche, and a comparative reduction in crema. On the comments about the hopper- agree regarding the one that is provided. I was able to source a single dosing hopper easily that is nothing more than a cover with a small funnel on top. On the noise comment- yes it is loud, but because it is so fast, it is very short lived- like 2-3 seconds with a 17g dose. I much prefer this to my annoying grind time of the Niche- especially if I'm on a zoom call and my wife grinds herself a cup- I can mute my call easily for 3 seconds vs. 20 that the Niche would require :)
I use a Robur at home. I'm not sure I'd recommend it, but it was a killer deal used (under $800!) and I love its speed. It also has a pretty mild sound compared to my DF64 - which is my new decaf grinder. Single Dosing on the Robur does not work, and its a little challenging to dial in. BUT it makes my mornings quite easy. I go through about a bag a week, and am pretty happy with my workflow.
Would love to hear your thoughts on the SSP 64 mm Cast burrs (“Lab Sweet” clones) for the Lagom P64. My understanding is they fit somewhere between HU and MP burrs with clarity and body.
I love mine. It’s one of the rare Swiss Army knife like grinders that can do both filter and espresso well, and can quickly handle bulk grinding in a shop for customers. All points made are well taken.
It’s definitely very capable of all those things, and does them well. Just left me wanting that sweetness. And the espresso for me was a dealbreaker, but that’s purely based on preferences.
"Commercial grinders" is a very broad class of products, so much so that some are a good fit for home use, while others usually aren't. The 807 looks like a bulk grinder, and I think it is no accident. For this specific use case, 9g/s makes a lot of sense, and the size and weight are worth it. I wouldn't want such a large grinder for home use, but sometimes you can find second-hand commercial grinders at ridiculously low prices, so you can decide to trade space (or noise, etc.) for price. Here in France, I see a lot of old Mazzer Super Jolly grinders for sale, almost all have a doser. They look very sturdy. If you're handy, you can remove the doser and install an alternative chute, and then you have a pretty good 64-mm flat burr commercial grinder in your kitchen at a reasonable price (less than a new DF64). Worth it for many home baristas here!
I‘m just glad you saved me from buying into the big Lab Sweet burrs. Currently I‘m using the Lagom P64 with Multipurpose and sometimes swap to cast. Unfortunately Cast burrs need to be adjusted half/quarter mark right before chirp for nordic roasts. And bitterness seems to get an issue again. With the Multipurpose it‘s mostly a matter of taste how strong I extract, not a matter of avoiding annoying tastes!
Love your storytelling style Didn't knew that we've researched so much that just by precise grinder blades we've achieved sweetness 😳😳😳😳☕☕☕☕marvelous discovery for coffee lovers
Are you planning on doing a review of the Orea v3 brewer? I keep seeing it crop up in your videos and looking forward to hearing your thoughts on it and suggested recipes.
Good point about the SWEET name suggests but in the bottom line, it's a marketing decision that will benefit the manufacturer moving forward. I haven't seen a lot of people with Ditting grinders at home so this is obviously for the commercial environment. Thanks for sharing this with us! -Y
Yeah absolutely a marketing aim for sure, but some users have reported sweeter coffee, so I guess maybe? I have seen more and more push for these in homes, at least for those looking for that “end game” grinder. Thanks for watching and commenting!
I would recommend try out the Mahlkönig Tanzania/Ditting 805. I use it at home with ssp hu burrs for light espresso and filter coffee. With a few tweaks it's an awesome grinder for me!
Great video as always. I'm on the other end of the sound-speed spectrum with my hand grinder and I like it here--I can't move fast enough to use a full dose of ground beans every two seconds anyway. Every time we get one of these technologies that's aimed at consistency of grind I'm asking myself what are we learning? Is there evidence based research on the effects of different particle shapes? How do you get especially high body with lower extraction, if the extracted solubles are what create that body? Where is all this knowledge being collected?
Also, your reviews are really a breath of fresh air, tbh the recent "push" of the new lab sweet on the review circuit felt a little misplaced. It's one thing to review dozens of amazing products and point out the strengths, weaknesses and who said equipment could suit. It's another to proclaim it's "it" then months later move on to something else and leave that "it" behind due to previously undisclosed perceived or real flaws. I see the allure of cast burrs, but seems more "homogenizing" than anything else, at least from what I've heard. Appreciate your take on many products and techniques!
I tested a Lab Sweet for a few weeks as well. The sweetness was noticeable, as it was the lack of flavor 'distinctiveness', lack of this acidity that makes espresso, especially light roasts pleasant. A very well built (not in CH anymore) huge grinder, that after my opinion does its job in coffee shops, grinding consistently, non-stop, many bags of coffee, one after the other with no issues.
Looks like you could store a bottle of single malt and some cigars in that thing. I toyed with the idea of going to 83mm burrs when a Ceado E37SD went on sale, but the burr upgrade cost alone put me off so I went with 64mm burrs instead, no regrets so far.
Haha yeah there would appear to be a lot of unused real estate inside the grinder. And I know it may not be the most popular take, but when it comes to grinders, particularly for home, bigger burrs don’t seem to be better and it just starts to feel like a competition between manufacturers.
Thanks for your honest review. My opinion is for a truly sweeter espresso, look no further than the Profitec Pro 800 Lever Espresso Machine. It has been said that it can potentially make a sweeter cup.
Did you check the alignment. I sent my back to factory (bad engine mount). After it came back my espresso range almost aligned with a espresso at dial. Before I need to grind at 0.5-1
Mine also had huge problems with alignment. I've made some short videos about it. Initial burr shimming got significant changes in taste. Now trying to make carrier sanding using some custom tools to get ideal results. There is a big thread on homebarista forum with such a problems described
I did check the alignment, it also came with additional shims in the case I wanted to make some changes. But it did come direct from Prima which had it dialed prior to hitting my counter.
I was never a fan of using commercial grinders at home for one main reason, the retention, but this seems like it doesnt have an issue there. Of course price, size and volume is a concern but workflow doesn't actually seem bad and the cup holder seems very versatile.
I have two grinders one is 807ls, one is Ultra. 807ls is an all-purpose grinder, Ultra is also. But the difference between them is that the 807ls will give you a richer coffee taste, while the Ultra's hu blade gives you a clean and clear feeling. So they do make a good and interesting combination together.
Thanks for that review. I am Mahlkoening E80 owner and can only tell... well... for me it's not the size that is the worst part of using such a grinder. It's coffee waisted here and there. You cannot experiment unless you buy always .5 kg-bags of coffee. It just takes time to dial that thing in (relatively high retention and some stiction or "momentum" in the grind setting mechanism). In terms of noise I think that E80 is much quieter than 807 (for me it's not a problem at least). Taste-wise I am happy with the burrs, but the workflow is indeed great for the cafe not for home. Even firmware update can be done only by the Mahlkoening technician (I was shocked, you can update a firmware of almost every equipment you have by yourself, but Mahlkoenig is convinced you're so dumb that you will for sure brick that brick... yyy.. sorry that grinder). I wish there was some middle ground in terms of availability, price and quality between extremely small production batch high-end grinders like Ultra, P-100, Kafetek and high quality commercial grinders like Mahlkoenig. I wish I could buy a top quality, high-end, single dose grinder from established company like Mahlkoening that I can get and repair locally without a need to first import it from overseas and then send it to States or Hong Kong or wherever for repair. The same problem I have with Decent espresso machines. Why, there is no such machine from La Marzocco (like iPad powered, flow/pressure profiling Linea Mini ;)), Sanremo, Faema, Slayer. Again those big names just don't offer anything for home coffee enthusiasts that have some budget for top quality equipment. Either you get a crap "home" byproduct or you are offered commercial clunky, ugly boxes with a workflow for 500 coffees a day.
You’re welcome and thanks for watching! This is an interesting take. I’m with you on commercial grinders at home, and I know a lot people sell the speed of these grinders, but at home you don’t need that. The E80 of course is built for cafe use, same with the Lab Sweet. I am surprised that when Mahlkonig entered the home market they brought in a hopper based grinder when home enthusiasts were (and still are) clamoring for single dosers. And service is one of those things that can really get annoying. Personally I feel like as soon as a grinder needs firmware updates I’m out. That just seems like too far for something as simple as a motor and a set of burrs. But maybe I should try out the E80 before I make any comments further. I could love it.
As far as I can tell, your E80 ($3500) is much more expensive than a P-100 ($2600) or a P-64 ($1500). Did you buy a second-hand E80, or did you get a very deep discount? Did you consider the Eureka grinders? They are silent and sturdy, I heard good things about their singe-dose grinder, and supposedly the Atom Specialty models can do single dosing too (definitely not the old Atom 60 though).
@@jmsaffroy Well, those are prices in the US :) I live in Poland and looks like at the current rates I bought a new E80 closer to $2800 (I negotiated some discount as well) and the P-100 will be much more expensive because of taxes (like $2650 grinder + shipping $195 + VAT ~$655 + customs - no clue how much = all +$3500). As far as other grinders are concerned I don't like the idea of adding a bellow to the hopper grinder and calling it a single dose. I still don't get it why big producers cannot just analyze the success story of a Niche Zero (BTW if it only had flat burrs and was not so ugly I would definitely get one) and try to make real single dose grinder with like .1 g retention. I stil think that it's extremely small retention people are looking for. You want to experiment with different coffees and those can get expensive, you do not want to waste it for purging... it's that simple. Last year I even took a two day trip to Milano and went to Host Milano fairs just to see what grinders are available and in tell you the truth I was disappointed that there are almost no zero retention grinders from big producers, they just seem to be blind to that niche... they produce the very same constructions year over year with now new ideas, no real innovation (see bellows). Even, when you look at almost all Italian grinders, they all look alike :(. As I said I wish I could buy a solid, low retention, single dose grinder with nice big, flat burrs from an established producer... but all you can get is a big commercial grinder with hell of a lot retention with bellows added to it and labeled Single Dose. All I need is a Niche like Mahlkoenig or Fiorenzatto (was impressed with those, they are built like tanks...a good tanks :)). BTW, I had Ceado E37 S... will never buy that crap again, am happy that I sold it (for like 1/5 of the initial price... it's over marketed crap).
@@Sprometheus I 100% agree with you as regards the firmware :), just wanted to show what Mahlkoenig thinks about it's customers. Unfortunately that is where "innovation" according to big producers goes. They added WiFi, firmwares and bigger fans instead of tighter manufacturing tolerances and lower retention. All-in-all I think E80 is a really good grinder but I am still waiting for a low retention (below .1g), single dose (real one, no bellows cheating), big flat burr, preferably small form factor grinder that I can buy in EU and that is serviceable in my country without a need to send it somewhere and wait like 3-4 months for repair :D... I just have a problem with one-man-show machines that cost a fortune like Decent espresso machine, Ultra or Nautilus grinder. One day there is a great support (even though far away) and spare parts but the next day the owner can just say "I'm out" and you're left with a very expensive scrap.
I had an espresso shot or two from an peak grinder with the same burrs and I did notice it had decent clarity, body and a bit of nice sweetness to it. I'm surprised you're saying it's all body and not much clarity when it comes to espresso. I remember having similar thoughts about the similar styled ssp cast burrs in 64mm seemed like it was good body but not much else. I also had a ssp MP burr in another grinder so perhaps if we're comparing with that our tastes and perceptions are skewed because we really know what flavors were missing out on lol. Or what others have said is that cast burrs need like 20lbs of seasoning and they get higher clarity and better over time. But I don't have the patience for that. If it's such a dramatic change they should really pre season the burrs. I found option-o Mizen burrs are better right out of the box. I don't think they give high body but are a decently balanced burr where I also noticed decent clarity and some sweetness like I remember from the real lab sweet burrs.
appreciate the honesty and straightforwardness. have been curious about the Lab Sweet for years and this satisfied that curiosity. I guess you ended up preferring more unimodal burrs (98mm HU/64mm MP) for filter coffee?
Fair enough comments re size and noise, and good to hear your burrs were aligned as this definitely needs to be carried out prior to serious use. Using the grinder without the bean hopper makes the grinder MUCH less imposing for home use. A dosing cup can be used instead, and also enables a puffer to be used for those that want less than .1g variances between in/out grinds. 807LS dial-in is very forgiving, as the coffee from imperfectly set burrs is still decent. Expecting the 807 to take over the 804's reputation for durability/longevity, and there's no reason an 807 used domestically to not last indefinitely...
Did you try wheatgrass for espresso? I’m researching burrs that strike the best balance for texture and acidity to do traditional shots with ultralights. 🙏
I’d be more than content to have a P64 and I’d never need an upgrade. But before I can figure out the best workflow to suit 51mm portafilter for La Pavoni, my Niche Zero will still be the workhorse.
Wow, that was totally unexpected. Really thought the burrs generate exceptional sweet espresso :) Any chance you might do a review on the Ceado E37Z hero? Would love to hear your thoughts on it
Has there ever been any diving into completely different materials for burrs, things like graphene, carbon fiber, metal reinforced resins, I dunno stone lol, etc? Kind of silly, but hey, I'm curious how far down the rabbit hole this has went. We are still, oftentimes myself included, using the same 58mm basket size and E61 grouphead from OVER 60 years ago, I just wonder what else can be used, especially in the age of pre-breaker grinders not putting as much strain on the main set.
Interesting. I wonder, if considering tradeoffs for investments, other comparisons are made ie grinding from frozen, or even doing what proud mary is up in oregon i hear, actually having a fridge built -around- the grinders themselves.
I don’t recommend the OCD anymore, instead I am a big fan of the Sworksdesign WDT. It’s a little on the pricier side, there are cheaper options. But it allows you use different sized and patterned needles, and the needles themselves are flexible and not sharp
Very surprised you’re getting such low extractions for espresso and high for filter. How well were your burrs aligned, and seasoned? And what kind of water are you using?
The burrs are aligned, it was shipped directly from Prima with shims if needed. The grinder itself has been used for awhile as a demo and in trade shows, but personally I don’t really buy the whole seasoning thing. And the water used for brewing both filter and espresso is the same bottle of Crystal Geyser spring water.
Interesting. Since we are going commercial, I don't believe I've seen a review of crazy grinders like the Mazzer ZM Digital, or other micron adjustable grinders. It'd be interesting to see how something like that fares as well.
If somebody is looking for more body in their espresso shots, I would think that they would be looking at a conical burr grinder, rather than this. So odd that it’s massive and loud. Normally, a heavier case can mute the noise. Is it designed to be loud so a commercial shop can announce to their customers that they have a big grinder?
this was what i was looking at if i wanted to upgrade from niche. but at the same time, didn't expect it to be 2k+. thought it might be between 1-2k. that said, i dont think i would like the burrs it comes with. seems like the ssp ones are better.
Commercial grinders are not designed for kitchens so they will always have way more downsides than ups for a home user. Nobody needs to grind 18g in 2 seconds. And the noise will be lost in a busy cafe or roastery unlike the silence of a morning kitchen.
That’s a fact. Speed is something a lot of coffee folks get into, but for me it not only means more noise, but also likely more waste. And after my RPM video tests it seems 800RPM is a perfect middle ground.
I did the coffee nerd thing at purchased an EK43s, only to find that it is way too large, way too noisy and way too messy for home use. It was really good, but so is my current Lagom P64, which is also compact, quiet and clean, and I miss nothing in terms of flavour from the EK43. The 807 Lab Sweet seems like a similar proposition as the EK43 ...
Commercial grinders are definitely overkill for home use,I think ODE or Commandante is enough for home use. Also,in my experience,ditting 805 has more clarity than lab sweet burrs.
I work at Starbucks and I grind A LOT of coffee every day, we also have similar Ditter grinder and I noticed that by paying for speed I get particles of different sizes, from very small to large pieces.
These commercial grinders only have one advantage over home enthusiast grinder--availability. Without rpm adjustment, there's no way to obtain great clarity in the cup.
I agree with 80% from its output profile, noise, mess to clean… but remember, this is a flat burr, and the name of the maker to this burr, its all about give and take, understanding the tool you are using to well fit your profile instead of what the tool can do for you, we are human to adapt all new things, just LIKE to DISLIKE… keep making a good cup for yourself
@@MereCashmere Could you provide an example of coffee being measured at a non-acidic pH? Because anything I can find is the fact that coffee is always, at least mildly, acidic.
@@marapamts maybe in the United States and other countries that embraced third wave coffee…but not so much in Italy. Third wave is a failure since the masses don’t drink espresso straight
Pick the right coffee then. I roast coffees that really have no acidity at all unless they're roasted light enough to bog down your grinder. *What you want in your espresso belongs in your espresso.
man i just love the time format of your videos. Straight to the point, detailed, yet easy to digest and remember .
^^this! Thank you for saying that, it’s always a goal of mine to make things easily digestible, no fluff, just information. Personally, I love coffee stuff, but 15+ minutes for a video for me is a rarity because I don’t want to watch reviews or information videos they don’t get straight to it.
Definitely think commerical grinders are overkill or at least have significant diminishing returns. With the current state of hobbyist coffee, I feel like the people who are spending a lot of money on their setups are chasing clarity over body so it makes the 807 Lab Sweet grinder somewhat unappetizing for prosumers. That being said, I really enjoy watching videos on grinders that serve different purposes otther than at-home coffee making so I'm looking forward to more grinder reviews!
I’m with you Andrew, and I’m a clarity chaser for sure. Don’t get me wrong, I love texture in my espresso but just need a better balance. Thanks for watching and the kind words! Hopefully some more videos in this range will be made in the future.
I have the Lab Sweet in a small coffee shop.
I use the grinder exclusively for espresso with light-medium SO.
For me a good espresso is a balanced one because I have customers who are trying for the first time light roast SO.
I have been using the grinder for about half a year and I can tell you that I get the best results with 19 grams in, a 2.5 ratio at 8bar, in about 23-25s
Maybe you can try it and tell me what you think.
I wonder if it's seasoning related If those were new burrs.
I own an 807 LS, and it keeps improving in its shot quality over time, therefore I think there is some truth to the seasoning aspect you question- especially with cast burrs (vs machined/coated) as I think the character of producing fines would change somewhat dramatically with a cast burr that has been well seasoned. Recommendations I have read have been a minimum of 20Kg.
I find the clarity a couple of notches above the Niche I used for years, without the sourness that the Niche would bring. Body slightly less than Niche, and a comparative reduction in crema.
On the comments about the hopper- agree regarding the one that is provided. I was able to source a single dosing hopper easily that is nothing more than a cover with a small funnel on top.
On the noise comment- yes it is loud, but because it is so fast, it is very short lived- like 2-3 seconds with a 17g dose. I much prefer this to my annoying grind time of the Niche- especially if I'm on a zoom call and my wife grinds herself a cup- I can mute my call easily for 3 seconds vs. 20 that the Niche would require :)
I use a Robur at home. I'm not sure I'd recommend it, but it was a killer deal used (under $800!) and I love its speed. It also has a pretty mild sound compared to my DF64 - which is my new decaf grinder. Single Dosing on the Robur does not work, and its a little challenging to dial in.
BUT it makes my mornings quite easy. I go through about a bag a week, and am pretty happy with my workflow.
Thank you my friend.
Of course! Thanks for your loyalty and weekly kind comments!
Would love to hear your thoughts on the SSP 64 mm Cast burrs (“Lab Sweet” clones) for the Lagom P64. My understanding is they fit somewhere between HU and MP burrs with clarity and body.
I am definitely keen on sorting that one out. I’ll probably order a set in the near future so stay tuned!
@@Sprometheus a direct comparison for filter between the 807 and ssp sweets would be super interesting
I love mine. It’s one of the rare Swiss Army knife like grinders that can do both filter and espresso well, and can quickly handle bulk grinding in a shop for customers. All points made are well taken.
It’s definitely very capable of all those things, and does them well. Just left me wanting that sweetness. And the espresso for me was a dealbreaker, but that’s purely based on preferences.
"Commercial grinders" is a very broad class of products, so much so that some are a good fit for home use, while others usually aren't.
The 807 looks like a bulk grinder, and I think it is no accident. For this specific use case, 9g/s makes a lot of sense, and the size and weight are worth it.
I wouldn't want such a large grinder for home use, but sometimes you can find second-hand commercial grinders at ridiculously low prices, so you can decide to trade space (or noise, etc.) for price.
Here in France, I see a lot of old Mazzer Super Jolly grinders for sale, almost all have a doser. They look very sturdy. If you're handy, you can remove the doser and install an alternative chute, and then you have a pretty good 64-mm flat burr commercial grinder in your kitchen at a reasonable price (less than a new DF64). Worth it for many home baristas here!
love your reviews. love your honesty!
Thank you Pima! I really appreciate that!
I‘m just glad you saved me from buying into the big Lab Sweet burrs.
Currently I‘m using the Lagom P64 with Multipurpose and sometimes swap to cast. Unfortunately Cast burrs need to be adjusted half/quarter mark right before chirp for nordic roasts. And bitterness seems to get an issue again. With the Multipurpose it‘s mostly a matter of taste how strong I extract, not a matter of avoiding annoying tastes!
Love your storytelling style
Didn't knew that we've researched so much that just by precise grinder blades we've achieved sweetness 😳😳😳😳☕☕☕☕marvelous discovery for coffee lovers
Are you planning on doing a review of the Orea v3 brewer? I keep seeing it crop up in your videos and looking forward to hearing your thoughts on it and suggested recipes.
Good point about the SWEET name suggests but in the bottom line, it's a marketing decision that will benefit the manufacturer moving forward. I haven't seen a lot of people with Ditting grinders at home so this is obviously for the commercial environment. Thanks for sharing this with us! -Y
Yeah absolutely a marketing aim for sure, but some users have reported sweeter coffee, so I guess maybe? I have seen more and more push for these in homes, at least for those looking for that “end game” grinder. Thanks for watching and commenting!
I would recommend try out the Mahlkönig Tanzania/Ditting 805. I use it at home with ssp hu burrs for light espresso and filter coffee. With a few tweaks it's an awesome grinder for me!
Great video as always. I'm on the other end of the sound-speed spectrum with my hand grinder and I like it here--I can't move fast enough to use a full dose of ground beans every two seconds anyway.
Every time we get one of these technologies that's aimed at consistency of grind I'm asking myself what are we learning? Is there evidence based research on the effects of different particle shapes? How do you get especially high body with lower extraction, if the extracted solubles are what create that body? Where is all this knowledge being collected?
4:32 what app???🤔
Also, your reviews are really a breath of fresh air, tbh the recent "push" of the new lab sweet on the review circuit felt a little misplaced. It's one thing to review dozens of amazing products and point out the strengths, weaknesses and who said equipment could suit. It's another to proclaim it's "it" then months later move on to something else and leave that "it" behind due to previously undisclosed perceived or real flaws. I see the allure of cast burrs, but seems more "homogenizing" than anything else, at least from what I've heard.
Appreciate your take on many products and techniques!
I tested a Lab Sweet for a few weeks as well. The sweetness was noticeable, as it was the lack of flavor 'distinctiveness', lack of this acidity that makes espresso, especially light roasts pleasant. A very well built (not in CH anymore) huge grinder, that after my opinion does its job in coffee shops, grinding consistently, non-stop, many bags of coffee, one after the other with no issues.
Looks like you could store a bottle of single malt and some cigars in that thing. I toyed with the idea of going to 83mm burrs when a Ceado E37SD went on sale, but the burr upgrade cost alone put me off so I went with 64mm burrs instead, no regrets so far.
Haha yeah there would appear to be a lot of unused real estate inside the grinder. And I know it may not be the most popular take, but when it comes to grinders, particularly for home, bigger burrs don’t seem to be better and it just starts to feel like a competition between manufacturers.
Thanks for your honest review. My opinion is for a truly sweeter espresso, look no further than the Profitec Pro 800 Lever Espresso Machine. It has been said that it can potentially make a sweeter cup.
Did you check the alignment. I sent my back to factory (bad engine mount). After it came back my espresso range almost aligned with a espresso at dial. Before I need to grind at 0.5-1
Mine also had huge problems with alignment. I've made some short videos about it. Initial burr shimming got significant changes in taste. Now trying to make carrier sanding using some custom tools to get ideal results.
There is a big thread on homebarista forum with such a problems described
I did check the alignment, it also came with additional shims in the case I wanted to make some changes. But it did come direct from Prima which had it dialed prior to hitting my counter.
Flat burr alignment is definitely an area that needs more coverage, hyper aligned burrs require superior puck prep skills.
I was never a fan of using commercial grinders at home for one main reason, the retention, but this seems like it doesnt have an issue there. Of course price, size and volume is a concern but workflow doesn't actually seem bad and the cup holder seems very versatile.
I have two grinders one is 807ls, one is Ultra. 807ls is an all-purpose grinder, Ultra is also. But the difference between them is that the 807ls will give you a richer coffee taste, while the Ultra's hu blade gives you a clean and clear feeling. So they do make a good and interesting combination together.
Thanks for that review. I am Mahlkoening E80 owner and can only tell... well... for me it's not the size that is the worst part of using such a grinder. It's coffee waisted here and there. You cannot experiment unless you buy always .5 kg-bags of coffee. It just takes time to dial that thing in (relatively high retention and some stiction or "momentum" in the grind setting mechanism). In terms of noise I think that E80 is much quieter than 807 (for me it's not a problem at least). Taste-wise I am happy with the burrs, but the workflow is indeed great for the cafe not for home. Even firmware update can be done only by the Mahlkoening technician (I was shocked, you can update a firmware of almost every equipment you have by yourself, but Mahlkoenig is convinced you're so dumb that you will for sure brick that brick... yyy.. sorry that grinder). I wish there was some middle ground in terms of availability, price and quality between extremely small production batch high-end grinders like Ultra, P-100, Kafetek and high quality commercial grinders like Mahlkoenig. I wish I could buy a top quality, high-end, single dose grinder from established company like Mahlkoening that I can get and repair locally without a need to first import it from overseas and then send it to States or Hong Kong or wherever for repair. The same problem I have with Decent espresso machines. Why, there is no such machine from La Marzocco (like iPad powered, flow/pressure profiling Linea Mini ;)), Sanremo, Faema, Slayer. Again those big names just don't offer anything for home coffee enthusiasts that have some budget for top quality equipment. Either you get a crap "home" byproduct or you are offered commercial clunky, ugly boxes with a workflow for 500 coffees a day.
You’re welcome and thanks for watching! This is an interesting take. I’m with you on commercial grinders at home, and I know a lot people sell the speed of these grinders, but at home you don’t need that. The E80 of course is built for cafe use, same with the Lab Sweet. I am surprised that when Mahlkonig entered the home market they brought in a hopper based grinder when home enthusiasts were (and still are) clamoring for single dosers. And service is one of those things that can really get annoying. Personally I feel like as soon as a grinder needs firmware updates I’m out. That just seems like too far for something as simple as a motor and a set of burrs. But maybe I should try out the E80 before I make any comments further. I could love it.
As far as I can tell, your E80 ($3500) is much more expensive than a P-100 ($2600) or a P-64 ($1500).
Did you buy a second-hand E80, or did you get a very deep discount?
Did you consider the Eureka grinders? They are silent and sturdy, I heard good things about their singe-dose grinder, and supposedly the Atom Specialty models can do single dosing too (definitely not the old Atom 60 though).
@@jmsaffroy Well, those are prices in the US :) I live in Poland and looks like at the current rates I bought a new E80 closer to $2800 (I negotiated some discount as well) and the P-100 will be much more expensive because of taxes (like $2650 grinder + shipping $195 + VAT ~$655 + customs - no clue how much = all +$3500). As far as other grinders are concerned I don't like the idea of adding a bellow to the hopper grinder and calling it a single dose. I still don't get it why big producers cannot just analyze the success story of a Niche Zero (BTW if it only had flat burrs and was not so ugly I would definitely get one) and try to make real single dose grinder with like .1 g retention. I stil think that it's extremely small retention people are looking for. You want to experiment with different coffees and those can get expensive, you do not want to waste it for purging... it's that simple. Last year I even took a two day trip to Milano and went to Host Milano fairs just to see what grinders are available and in tell you the truth I was disappointed that there are almost no zero retention grinders from big producers, they just seem to be blind to that niche... they produce the very same constructions year over year with now new ideas, no real innovation (see bellows). Even, when you look at almost all Italian grinders, they all look alike :(. As I said I wish I could buy a solid, low retention, single dose grinder with nice big, flat burrs from an established producer... but all you can get is a big commercial grinder with hell of a lot retention with bellows added to it and labeled Single Dose. All I need is a Niche like Mahlkoenig or Fiorenzatto (was impressed with those, they are built like tanks...a good tanks :)). BTW, I had Ceado E37 S... will never buy that crap again, am happy that I sold it (for like 1/5 of the initial price... it's over marketed crap).
@@Sprometheus I 100% agree with you as regards the firmware :), just wanted to show what Mahlkoenig thinks about it's customers. Unfortunately that is where "innovation" according to big producers goes. They added WiFi, firmwares and bigger fans instead of tighter manufacturing tolerances and lower retention. All-in-all I think E80 is a really good grinder but I am still waiting for a low retention (below .1g), single dose (real one, no bellows cheating), big flat burr, preferably small form factor grinder that I can buy in EU and that is serviceable in my country without a need to send it somewhere and wait like 3-4 months for repair :D... I just have a problem with one-man-show machines that cost a fortune like Decent espresso machine, Ultra or Nautilus grinder. One day there is a great support (even though far away) and spare parts but the next day the owner can just say "I'm out" and you're left with a very expensive scrap.
I had an espresso shot or two from an peak grinder with the same burrs and I did notice it had decent clarity, body and a bit of nice sweetness to it. I'm surprised you're saying it's all body and not much clarity when it comes to espresso. I remember having similar thoughts about the similar styled ssp cast burrs in 64mm seemed like it was good body but not much else. I also had a ssp MP burr in another grinder so perhaps if we're comparing with that our tastes and perceptions are skewed because we really know what flavors were missing out on lol. Or what others have said is that cast burrs need like 20lbs of seasoning and they get higher clarity and better over time. But I don't have the patience for that. If it's such a dramatic change they should really pre season the burrs.
I found option-o Mizen burrs are better right out of the box. I don't think they give high body but are a decently balanced burr where I also noticed decent clarity and some sweetness like I remember from the real lab sweet burrs.
appreciate the honesty and straightforwardness. have been curious about the Lab Sweet for years and this satisfied that curiosity. I guess you ended up preferring more unimodal burrs (98mm HU/64mm MP) for filter coffee?
Fair enough comments re size and noise, and good to hear your burrs were aligned as this definitely needs to be carried out prior to serious use.
Using the grinder without the bean hopper makes the grinder MUCH less imposing for home use. A dosing cup can be used instead, and also enables a puffer to be used for those that want less than .1g variances between in/out grinds.
807LS dial-in is very forgiving, as the coffee from imperfectly set burrs is still decent.
Expecting the 807 to take over the 804's reputation for durability/longevity, and there's no reason an 807 used domestically to not last indefinitely...
Did you try wheatgrass for espresso? I’m researching burrs that strike the best balance for texture and acidity to do traditional shots with ultralights. 🙏
I’d be more than content to have a P64 and I’d never need an upgrade. But before I can figure out the best workflow to suit 51mm portafilter for La Pavoni, my Niche Zero will still be the workhorse.
Wow, that was totally unexpected. Really thought the burrs generate exceptional sweet espresso :)
Any chance you might do a review on the Ceado E37Z hero? Would love to hear your thoughts on it
Has there ever been any diving into completely different materials for burrs, things like graphene, carbon fiber, metal reinforced resins, I dunno stone lol, etc? Kind of silly, but hey, I'm curious how far down the rabbit hole this has went. We are still, oftentimes myself included, using the same 58mm basket size and E61 grouphead from OVER 60 years ago, I just wonder what else can be used, especially in the age of pre-breaker grinders not putting as much strain on the main set.
Interesting.
I wonder, if considering tradeoffs for investments, other comparisons are made ie grinding from frozen, or even doing what proud mary is up in oregon i hear, actually having a fridge built -around- the grinders themselves.
Wonder how this burrs compair to SSP cast lab sweet burrs
Would you still reccomend the OCD tool? And do you happen to have any WDT model you reccomend? Thanks
I don’t recommend the OCD anymore, instead I am a big fan of the Sworksdesign WDT. It’s a little on the pricier side, there are cheaper options. But it allows you use different sized and patterned needles, and the needles themselves are flexible and not sharp
@@Sprometheus Thank you! What dosing funnel do you reccomend? I have been losing a lot of grounds lately
Very surprised you’re getting such low extractions for espresso and high for filter. How well were your burrs aligned, and seasoned? And what kind of water are you using?
The burrs are aligned, it was shipped directly from Prima with shims if needed. The grinder itself has been used for awhile as a demo and in trade shows, but personally I don’t really buy the whole seasoning thing. And the water used for brewing both filter and espresso is the same bottle of Crystal Geyser spring water.
Interesting. Since we are going commercial, I don't believe I've seen a review of crazy grinders like the Mazzer ZM Digital, or other micron adjustable grinders. It'd be interesting to see how something like that fares as well.
Hi! How would you compare the lab sweet vs a WW EG-1?
If somebody is looking for more body in their espresso shots, I would think that they would be looking at a conical burr grinder, rather than this. So odd that it’s massive and loud. Normally, a heavier case can mute the noise. Is it designed to be loud so a commercial shop can announce to their customers that they have a big grinder?
Can you review Lagom p100 please?
Would you ever review a titus ?
this was what i was looking at if i wanted to upgrade from niche. but at the same time, didn't expect it to be 2k+. thought it might be between 1-2k. that said, i dont think i would like the burrs it comes with. seems like the ssp ones are better.
Commercial grinders are not designed for kitchens so they will always have way more downsides than ups for a home user. Nobody needs to grind 18g in 2 seconds. And the noise will be lost in a busy cafe or roastery unlike the silence of a morning kitchen.
That’s a fact. Speed is something a lot of coffee folks get into, but for me it not only means more noise, but also likely more waste. And after my RPM video tests it seems 800RPM is a perfect middle ground.
Good video (brevity)
There are definitely 3d print single dose hoppers out there, but I think I heard that Ditting is working on an official one.
And can't wait for the 100mm burrs
"It's not you, ....." LOL. nice
Haha, ya know it’s a classic!
Dosing cup? That there is a bucket.
nice one
A little sugar also will make your shot sweeter and it's a lot cheaper 😊
what kind of cups are those?!?!
I did the coffee nerd thing at purchased an EK43s, only to find that it is way too large, way too noisy and way too messy for home use. It was really good, but so is my current Lagom P64, which is also compact, quiet and clean, and I miss nothing in terms of flavour from the EK43.
The 807 Lab Sweet seems like a similar proposition as the EK43 ...
Commercial grinders are definitely overkill for home use,I think ODE or Commandante is enough for home use.
Also,in my experience,ditting 805 has more clarity than lab sweet burrs.
3400 USD. I'm gonna just keep using my Niche I think.
Couldn't help but sing the "them bones" song when you said them burrs
Them burrs them burrs need.... coffee beans
To me, it was a disappointment. I have a fellow ode with ssp unimodal v1 and prefer my pour over with the ode. Will sell and get ek43s.
I work at Starbucks and I grind A LOT of coffee every day, we also have similar Ditter grinder and I noticed that by paying for speed I get particles of different sizes, from very small to large pieces.
These commercial grinders only have one advantage over home enthusiast grinder--availability. Without rpm adjustment, there's no way to obtain great clarity in the cup.
Totally overkill, get a La San Marco SM90 and cut down the hopper, remove the doser and add a single-dose output.
Man i love your content but this is a lab grinder no sane person will have it at home! Of course it going to be noisy !
I agree with 80% from its output profile, noise, mess to clean… but remember, this is a flat burr, and the name of the maker to this burr, its all about give and take, understanding the tool you are using to well fit your profile instead of what the tool can do for you, we are human to adapt all new things, just LIKE to DISLIKE… keep making a good cup for yourself
that thing is in no way made for home use and there are much better grinders for commercial use so really i don't see a point for it
It’s definitely growing in popularity at home, can’t say I’d want it in my kitchen long term though.
A grinder that mutes acidity is my type of grinder for espresso……. Acidity doesn’t belong in espresso
Espresso is an acidic drink though, it always will be.
@@marapamts false
@@MereCashmere Could you provide an example of coffee being measured at a non-acidic pH? Because anything I can find is the fact that coffee is always, at least mildly, acidic.
@@marapamts maybe in the United States and other countries that embraced third wave coffee…but not so much in Italy. Third wave is a failure since the masses don’t drink espresso straight
Pick the right coffee then. I roast coffees that really have no acidity at all unless they're roasted light enough to bog down your grinder.
*What you want in your espresso belongs in your espresso.
I just when I thought I've seen it all. Smdh🫤