Maybe someone needs to make a robot that throws the discs at the same speed, consistent release point (not a knock on you Danny but we are all human) to test this theory and get a definitive answer! Great video and love the work you do Danny!!!
As an older rec player who has been playing for quite a few years I must say I understand the charm of the lighter discs and the fact that it seems to wear my arm out less, however in windy conditions it's hard to beat a max weight disc and I must say I agree totally on distance not a significant difference
Great video, and the thinking was pretty close to Newtonian physics. Just wanted to clarify some things (mechanical engineer and avid disc golfer), and add . It should allow you to make better disc selection when you get to the teepad. - Newton's 2nd law: Force = mass*acceleration, not Force = mass*velocity . But, same general idea. You want the exit velocity of the disc from your hand (the disc is accelerated by your body's swing) to be as high as possible so that your disc has as much force on it as possible. In other words, it takes greater acceleration from your body to throw a 175 gram disc with the same amount of force as throwing a 168 gram disc. - Inertia (Newton's 1st law): an object's tendency to stay at rest/motion unless acted upon by an outside force. In the case of disc golf, outside forces that we neither like nor can avoid are drag forces (the force of air pushing directly opposite against the force of your disc), and frictional forces (the force from the leaves and, grass pushing against your disc as your disc rolls or skips forward on the ground). Also, in extreme cases, there are also impact forces that we can avoid, such as shanking your disc into a tree. - Rotational inertia (Newton's 2nd law applies to this as well): same thing as F = m*a, but instead of resistance to translational forces (forces in the x-y-z directions) it's the resistance of an object to rotational forces. Basically, you want as much rotational acceleration ("high speed spin") as possible on a disc. This will help propel it through the air for a longer period of time. So, regarding inertia on rollers: the greater mass of an object, the greater inertia it has. So, you're correct in thinking a 175g roller will go farther than a 168g roller, provided they have the same exit velocity from your hand. The key is to get stronger so that you can throw with more force, such that you can take advantage of the greater inertia of max weight discs. Danny can throw with a lot of force because he's a skilled disc golfer. He'll want to keep throwing 11-13 speed drivers at max weight (175g) to take advantage of the greater inertia. For the average/intermediate player, I'd assume they'll probably be better off throwing 7-9 speed drivers at max weight (172-175g), and 9-11 speed drivers at around 168-172g. For the beginner, they'll want to throw lightweight discs (sub 168g). TLDR: If you're a really skilled & strong thrower, you'll want to be throwing max weight drivers. If you're an intermediate thrower, you will probably be better off throwing 168-172g drivers. If you're a beginner, throw discs with weight below 168g.
Another great video! It would be great to see a part 2 to this with slower speed discs and/or maybe someone with a slower arm to compare. Does arm speed matter with disc weight??? Part 2! Part 2! :)
Great video Danny! It does seem this video would have been a perfect opportunity to use the radar gun, as the release speed of the throws is the only variable you're not accounting for. To truly test the relative behavior of these discs, they'd have to be released not only at the same height and angle, but at the same speed as well. I find my own throws vary by 3-4 MPH sometimes, even when the bio-mechanics feel basically the same. An extra 4 MPH on an open field with some height generates a much farther throw, sometimes as much as 50 feet. If you're throwing from a stationary, consistent position, you can use the gun to take readings for you automatically. Just set it up in "CON" mode and position it so that it's pointing at the area the disc is passing through on release. After a drive, you can go back and check the result. Keep up the awesome work!
Danny Lindahl Great to hear! All you have to do is hold down the little black button on the left side for a few seconds until the screen reads "CON", and then the device will automatically take a reading on any object moving over 25 MPH that enters its detection cone.
I know I’m late to the party on this video, lol, but I actually really enjoyed it! As a woman, I get scrutinized for throwing max weight discs. Like for realz, people always tell me I should try something like the air or blizzard or lower 160’s discs. I do bag a couple lighter discs, but they are understable molds to begin with & having them lighter means I don’t have to crank on a backhand anyhyzer hard to get them to hold the line. I dunno, but it was nice to see the distance between max weight & lighter weight discs were nearly the same🥏 😆
They might not realize youre already throwing good distance. Personally I get my best distance with my blizzard katana (very lightweight) but in addition to great distance and being dynamic its also my least predictable disc outside of a tailwind. It tends to flip over and carry with the wind especially or turn into a kite.
Bro I had a dream I asked you to make a video on this specific subject last night. Thanks for reading my mind and putting in the work to get some conclusions. You da man Dan!
Lighter weight accelerates faster (or the same velocity with less power) so there is more high-speed turn so the light disc flips but the heavier one doesn't, but speed of a light disc slows down faster than heavier disc's so low speed fade comes earlier than with a heavier disc so maybe lighter weight discs have a "bigger" S line sideways or the S is not in a direct line but more towards high-seed turn but not necessarily longer one. Would be interesting to see two different molds, heavier and more understand and lighter less stable one so that flight patters would be the same. I think that is almost impossible to test, or find two discs like that. Personally I haven't noticed much difference if weight difference is around 5 grams. I don't think most people can even feel it. It is a teaspoon of sugar. For players with less power, lighter discs are better, if the disc is stable. They get faster speed in the beginning with faster acceleration and discs turns over more easily. If disc is far less stable, then they should get similar results with a heavier disc. It is clear that wind impacts light object more than a heavier object no matter what the wind direction is. I'm not a physics guy though and maybe someone with science knowledge disagrees with me and that's fine. I have no idea if my writing makes any sense. I don't comment much, but felt like commenting this one.
The manufacturers need to build a machine that "throws" discs precisely the same every time and record the results for a variety of discs in different plastics, weights, etc.
I think that a Coke Light accelerates faster because its lighter than regular Coke. Im not a physcist, this is just my opinion. And if its my opinion its always the right opinion.
You forgot to consider the spin or rotation you can impart on the disc on release based on weight. Weight will effect the inertia of the spin and how long a high speed spin can be maintained on the disc through the resistance of air and wind which effects the shape of the shot, not just distance. A disc in flight is basically like an airplane wing and the speed of the spin helps keep that wing stable and gliding longer, resisting the fade at the end of the flight. Lighter discs spin more initially but have less inertia to fight air and wind resistance trying to slow down that spin. Discs sharing the same name can be very misleading because different weights and runs create totally different flight paths and behaviors. Disc age also will play a big role, a disc you get used to for 6 months will generally fly less stable/hyzer than a brand new one. You might find it more predictable, but it will generally be less stable than when you first bought it.
I think this comment has some profound insight. There is a max weight and no min weight per PDGA rules. This must be for a reason. It makes a lot of sense that the increased rotational inertia from a heavier disc would make the difference in resisting wind forces on the roll axis (tilting left or right). If you look at top pros throwing, when the disc lands, they are still spinning VERY fast. I believe getting a disc to spin faster, and having more inertia to maintain the gyroscopic effect, is the prevailing factor in disc weight, and why a heavier weight disc offers a competitive advantage (assuming threshold flight velocity can be achieved).
I got into disc golf because I like throwing objects into baskets. Now I find myself taking screenshots of people’s comments like yours so I can study aerodynamics lol If my teachers from 40 years ago could see me now. Thanks for taking the time breaking that down.
I am quite surprised at how close my Lucid Escape and Lucid Air Escape fly to each other. There is a 10 gram weight difference. I see little to no difference in stability and the flight of these two discs is so close that I've become quite comfortable throwing either. I reach for the heavier one if the wind is up. My experience with distance differences shows nothing more than my inconsistent throws ... :) Sometimes the light one goes farther, sometimes the heavier one does. LOL. My farthest throw ever was with a 163 gram disc ... perhaps as I improve and get more consistent I will be able to see more of a difference with different weight discs. I think in Danny's case he did get a more stable Lucid Air due to manufacturing/run difference ... that's another variable that we have to account for.
I'd love to see a sampling of throws rather than judging things off of one throw. I get that it takes time and everything, but even a sample size of 5 throws per disc can help show repeatable results.
Have only started playing like, 3 months ago. After my starter pack, which was almost all max weight discs, I bought a 166 star leopard. It's nice for forehands and such, but I found that I just don't like the feel of lighter discs, they're too flimsy in my amateur hands. Max weight has way more feedback about how the angle is and I tend to pace myself more with max weight (go slower) and gain more control from it. I just ordered a new set of max weight discs, and I can't wait to break them in on the course. Thanks for all the videos, so much good information for beginners here :)
I recently completely reformatted my bag so that it is set up heavily around this idea. I found it harder to keep track of 15 different discs flight patterns are. So the majority of my bag is Wraiths and Leopard 3's, weights ranging from 175g to about 155g. The heavier ones are more stable for windy days and hyzers and I use the lighter ones for turnovers or hyzer flips, because I throw primarily RHBH. I have a couple other drivers and a couple other mids for upshots. I have found it to be a positive changer for me. But I'm very much an amateur. Or maybe an experienced beginner. I've been playing on and off for about 14 years, probably not using a lot of my discs to their fullest potential, but this was a step in the right direction for me in order to simplify my game.
First of all, F=dp/dt (Chang in momentum over change in time) which can be rewritten as F=ma. Secondly, and more importantly, I would suggest researching the moment of inertia of discs when thinking about weight. The moment of inertia is basically how hard it is to spin a disc how long it keeps that spin based on the weight distribution throughout the disc. Lighter discs have a lower moment of inertia which means they get more rotation out of the hand but they lose this rotation faster.
You nail it with the 'trust' part. I throw 175g Firebird or 156g Boss.....each end of the spectrum. You know what to expect from the disc and therefore trust it and how it will perform.
I throw mostly max weight discs mainly because I like the feel of a heavier disc when throwing. Another reason I like max weight is I feel that it may not become less stable as quickly as a lighter disc due to wear and tear. And my 3rd reason is.... wind. Especially a strong head wind. I believe, or at least it feels like, the heavier plastic will cut through and possibly fly further with better accuracy than lighter plastic. When you design your game, you design it based on "Worst Case Scenario" . You always need to be prepared for the worst weather possible.... if that day comes and all you have is 150g plastic in your bag, then you might have a difficult time. I've played in various Japan Opens over the years and have thrown and have watched the top pros throw the 150g class plastic and yes, there were days with a lot of head wind. The top pros did a great job but there was no doubt, they would have played better with max weight plastic. I saw many of them throw right OB because the light plastic could not handle the wind like max weight.
I was just shopping for some discs and was confused as what weights I should pick. After a bit of RUclips research, I concluded that due to the fact that I live in windy Kansas, I probably ought to go with the heavier end of the weight range!
hi Danny yes another great video thanks. Well after many throws with many types of discs, for myself the lighter discs go much farther. 169 bolt 310', 158 bolt 325' and a 155 bolt 350+ (sometimes much further). I've done it over and over with similar results. Regards gud buddy
For me the deciding factor is arm pain. Lighter discs enable me to throw much longer without bothering my pre-existing injuries. And when it's windy I usually just switch to an overstable mid that is heavier.
The discs I use are between 140g and 150g depending on the disc and wind direction. I'm thinking you need to play the right angles to the wind, so a little more like sailing maybe. I do tend to do S curves. If I'm throwing into a strong wind, I will use something heavier. However I am 66 and started playing just 5 years ago.
I've used Stingrays as my main understable mid-range discs since the 90s. Lately I've been carrying two, one 160g for tailwinds and calm conditions (rare in Kansas City) and one 180g for headwinds and crosswinds. When I throw them both in calm conditions, I find that the heavier disc is more stable, but only slightly. It's really in the wind where there's a significant difference in performance.
I throw 150g very stiff Pro Wraiths. Super pop top dome. One I have is very under stable, its counterpart is more stable than some max weights I've thrown. When I play a course that requires a lot of distance shots for multiple rounds ill use the overstable to ease up my shoulder (old injury). Other than those my entire bag is almost all 170-173g. For some reason when I throw multiples I always end up liking the 170 class better. Great video!
Hey Danny, I have a question: Is it possible that the lighter weight is also making the lift of the airfoil have more of an effect causing the disc to maintain altitude for longer? I bought a basket to practice putting and it's unbelievable how far my 130g DX Skeeter flies without even putting any power behind it at all. I'm curious to know what your opinion/experience is with this, I just got a 150g TeeBird to test it out on drivers
Great video, Danny. My go to discs are lightweight Innova R-Pro Boss discs (ranging from 140's to upper 160's) and I determine which one based on wind conditions (lighter for tailwind and heavier for headwind with no wind go-to being a 158). One thing to consider is form/technique for the different releases. It looks like you have about the same amount of power using a hyzer or an anhyzer line. However, I find that I can throw a hyzer line with more power and more consistently than an anhyzer line. So there is a doubling effect because I can throw with more force (due to technique) as well as imparting a higher velocity on top of that due to the lighter weight of the disc. I believe that's why I have consistently gotten much better distance from my lighter discs. Being 46 years old though, my form is not nearly as smooth when trying to throw anhyzer distance drives. Throwing a less stable, but heavier, disc would allow a similar line using a hyzer release, but the heavier weight would reduce the applied force. I think it's that doubling effect that has really helped me. For reference, my longest with no wind is consistently around the 420' range. So, I'm not a big arm per se, but not light either. Just wanted to provide perhaps another element to consider when considering that many players--especially new players--likely don't deliver the same amount of force for a hyzer line vs an anhyzer line. I could be wrong. It might just be my own technique limitation, but maybe that is the case for others too. Keep up the awesome work!!
Some good research here. In regards to your aerodynamic conundrum, heavier discs do have more momentum, which is more or less synonomous with inertia. HOWEVER the reason heavier discs are less affected by wind is just due to the way that air resistance is calculated. Mass has an inverse relationship with the force of air resistance.
The other day I mashed on a max weight lucid sheriff on a big anhyzer flex--full flight, no stall, no spike finish--about 430 ft. Then I threw an equal weight lucid enforcer on a flat line that minimally turned and finished pretty hard hyzer, and it went 470 ft. I was really shocked. I think I subconsciously commit much more to a higher stability disc because I trust it won't turn and burn.
Troy Reichert This is what I’m finding. I subconsciously let up on my less stable discs. Think I’m going to start buying more OS discs and see if I can start upping my distance.
Thanks for the videos. ok, so: -both discs have the exact same aerodynamic drag. shape shape, weight doesn't affect this. The idea is that a lighter weight can be pulled at a higher speed with same GRIP pressure. Even the heavier disc will turn more and go farther with a faster start, but a beginner might not have as fast of a pull or as much GRIP as a pro. This is kinda negated when you aim for the same release velocity with both discs. Energy is mass × speed × speed, so speed counts twice as much as weight. - That air disc has the air bubbles on the rim, but not the flight plate. This lowers it's rotational inertia along with the weight. It's easier to SPIN, so the extra stability is from gyroscopic precession. If the regular disc was a figure skater spinning with her arms out, the air disc would be like pulling her arms in a bit, lol. -plastic shrinks as it cools. Some more than others. Adding air bubbles makes it worse. They prolly use a different mold for the air disc in hopes of the proper shape when it cools. Just a thought.
Thank you. I didn't mean to say the lighter disc had more drag, just the effect of the drag would have a greater effect because of the lower inertia. The Lat64 Air discs actually have bubbles in the flight plate as well. This was a result of a completely different run having a higher PLH (I need to test the PLH of these discs still). As for the air plastic, if they used a different mold they would have to get it reapproved and it's not a separate entry on the PDGA list. So they use the same mold, just with bubbles. I agree though, that's likely where a lot of the inconsistencies come from.
I have also found that lighter discs are less stable, but within a few grams isn't a lot of difference in distance. I have a couple star-lite discs, such as a Wraith that is 137 grams. It is ridiculous flippy, but if I pull that thing on a good hyzer in a tailwind, it will outdistance my regular star Wraith by an easy 40-50 feet (that gets it out over 350' - I am not a big arm). That said, I never throw it into a headwind (pretty much because I can't accurately judge and control it).
I had a Viking that was somewhere around 171 to 174g, and no matter if I threw it hard I never turned it over (although back when I was throwing it a lot my arm speed wasn't as fast); when I lost that one, I bought a new Viking, this one at 166g; if I throw it hard, it really wants to turn; it's actually a great hyzer flip disc when you mash on it. If I back off it, it can actually hold a hyzer. Pretty cool to have that versatility in a disc.
More mass= more stability. I'm 6 months in playing disc golf, and have been buying midrange discs around 170g and have been getting drivers in the 160s range. As a beginner, I went more understable with my drivers, but can really turn them over now. I'm at a crossroad as to buy more stable light discs, or move toward heavier understable discs to still be able to shape shots as my home course is basically one wooded tunnel after another. My favorite disc is a 179g Big Z Comet. I seem to be able to park it where I want. 3 months in, I got my first ace with the Comet. Thoughts?
If all other factors are same besides weight, then yes lower weight is less stable, more finicky, and affected more by wind. Plastic color, dome, parting line height, type of plastic all can affect flight also. You need to take those factors into account.
I just got a 127g Katana and it did add about 30 or 40 feet to my drive on calm days versus my 170-175g discs, giving me a max 330 of so feet on a flat surface (I am a noddle arm, but that is real distance and not internet distance - lol). Have not thrown it into the wind yet. But gosh.....it is so light. I am not throwing it near trees as it got caught in a couple of them, and a 127g disc is not tumbling down all that much; it does get caught in trees quite easily. 127g Katana comes out of the hand superfast, but with lower interta it slows down toward the end quite a bit more than the heavier discs.
the wind resistance (drag) is based on the coefficient of friction (which has to do with the shape - all things being equal) - the lighter weight in and off itself does not affect the wind resistance
Very fun and informative.. But you say the disc stops flying because of wind resistance.. I'd imagine gravity has a lot to do with that as well.. I also think that the players at distance competitions choose lighter discs to combat gravity during the initial launch phase more effectively. As well as the wind will carry a lighter disc further than a heavier disc. I've noticed that throwing up high affects the spin and speed of a disc exponentially and most of this energy loss is from fighting gravity not air.
Hey buddy, love your videos. They have helped me out a lot. I have a question. I throw a chamion katana around 230' consistently. The flight rating is (S/13 G/5 T/-3 F/3) I'm thinking I need to try some new discs. I don't think ive got the strength to throw the katana the way it should be thrown. I dont know that much about discs and flight ratings, especially the kinds I need to use. I was wondering, based of this info if you would recommend a driver for me to try out to get some more distance?
I'd go for something with a lot less speed, maybe a leopard or equivalent for starters. You'll be able to control it a lot better, and with more control comes the ability to put it on that max distance line. I'm just starting out too, and my go to is a teebird (similar to leopard, but more stable), but I'm looking to get a leopard also
I have two s-line DDx discs by Discmania, one is 175 and the other 167. I often see them land very close to each other as was the case with your test. However, I feel that the lighter one is easier to flip up and I have had longer drives with it, not just very often (mostly end up near each other still).
The only difference I see is when theres wind the lighter weight ones glide upwards higher then the heavier ones distance not much difference in no wind just different lines
A better test would be to find a max weight disc. Eg maverick. Find a more stable mold. Eg explorer in lighter weight. So that they have the same stability. My own opinion about weight is the fade usually gets less cut to it compared to a max weight disc with the same stability.
been watching plenty of in the bags and pros throw varying weights. Barsby for example has a few 168 to 172 range discs. Also so does Nathan Queen - 168 star wraith. I like to have a little bit of it all except in mids which i like a little more meat on. Wind can catch some discs and I've found in some molds the lighter discs are more overstable and break in better. Not that having max weight isn't key for higher skill, but some situations and certain feels lighter is better. Oh and most of Calvin's destroyers i believe were 170-172
Is the lighter disc getting a distance advantage in super distance comps because they're putting them up high and letting the wind carry them? making the lighter discs able to be pushed further than the heavier discs?
Yes. If you watch any of those desert videos, (particularly the one with Jussi and Avery Jenkins), they explain how you throw VERY high with LOTS of anhyzer, and the light-weight disc is then carried by the wind as you expose the bottom of the disc to those 60+ mph winds. The kind of throw in big throwing competitions is not a golf shot. That's one thing Danny didn't mention.
Momentum = m×v if you consider the disc as a rigid body with no rotation. You have to consider the energy that is used to rotate the disc, which is more the heavier the disc is.
If the discs are dimensionally the same, your supposition is incorrect. Lighter discs are not less stable. They are faster. You are mistaking the higher speed they achieve for less stability. The heavier discs will achieve a similar flight when thrown at the same speed. But this is all assuming that the discs are equals in regards to dimension and volume. If they are not, then THAT, not the weight, is the cause of the difference.
Steve Treehots I know he's a DD guy but if we could put a super lightweight Spirit in his hands it'd blow his mind. Spirits are one of the most overstable discs ever and the really light ones I've seen were even more OS, but I think again that it's a symptom of the higher speed achieved exacerbating the already extreme amount of lift that it's wing promotes. Speed almost always causes discs to lose stability in flight but there ARE exceptions. 150 class banshees and firebirds also have a tendency to be ridiculously overstable.
I think it's pretty clear that Danny knows this. You could rephrase his conclusion to support this way of phrasing it. Rather than "Pros throw max weight for more stability" it's "Pros throw max weight because the greater the inertia of the disc, the less the velocity changes over the course of the flight, and the more predictable the flight path.
Kieran Mullee It could also be said that they are more reliable because they naturally have less glide. The less glide a disc has the more it takes the characteristics of projectile motion in flight rather than disc/wing physics. Heavier weight and/or wider wings inhibit glide, and a disc that predictably dumps out at a certain range for you is valuable where shot placement is critical. I find it odd that Danny keeps saying that lighter weight discs are less stable, in the same breath that he explains how much more stable the really lightweight disc is than the max weight. The disc's geometry determines it's stability. The discs weight determines the amount of force needed to accelerate it to the speed necessary to achieve it's intended flight path. If, as Danny supposed, the added speed of a lightweight disc was negated by the increased wind resistance experienced at that speed, then any motion in an atmosphere would, by extension, be impossible.
Danny is great and does great videos. But I disagree a bit. Some additional factors may be at play. 167 is not that light. If you are Novice, have slower arm speed and less **snap, throw less than 325’, you must try a 157-160g driver. We’re talking calm wind, low wind left to right, or tailwind. Less than 157g is getting too light. Drastically changed my game for the better, control and distance. I prefer firm yet grippy plastic over hard rigid. Then for headwind I go 170g+. To note my putter and midrange are max weight 175g.
Another good video. Idea for Version 2 of this video: Recruit a second thrower who normally gets either 25% more distance, or better yet 25% less distance than Danny. I certainly can't rip it like any of the pro's. Maybe recruit one of the ladies for another test, and add a 155-160g disk to the mix.
Force/mass = acceleration, not velocity... but yeah it's kind of a proxy for velocity. Same force exerted on the smaller mass means greater acceleration, so the disc should have a higher velocity assuming that both discs are accelerated for the same amount of time. At the speeds that these discs are traveling, the drag is a function of the square of the velocity. The momentum of the disc (mass * velocity) will be affected by the forces acting on it (lift, gravity, and drag). Force equals a change in momentum over time. The drag force is less for the heavier disc b/c it isn't traveling as fast (assuming that the discs have similar aerodynamics). So the lighter disc will leave your hand traveling faster, but it will also lose more energy due to drag b/c of this. Then there's the angular momentum/rotational kinetic energy that each disc has... and it just goes south from there. Great explanation, all round. I thought you struck a good balance between looking at it analytically and doing some experiments. Seems like the disc manufacturers could produce a devices that "throws" a disc at least kinda like a person... but with far more precision so that they could really accurately determine the flight parameters. At the end of the day, it probably doesn't matter that much I guess. Would be pretty cool though.
My 156g and 157g star Destroyers are my favorite drivers. Against heavy wind, I throw a 169g champion Destroyer that I've beaten in. I only throw the 169g champion Destroyer 330ft but throw the lighter star Destroyers over 400ft...
I find lighter discs help in one situation you did not test. Throwing up hill I can get lighter discs to go farther that the same disc that is max weight.
@@CurtisMishleau throwing a flippier disc uphill will go further than a stable disc. Not because of lift but because they stay straight longer. When you throw uphill it is harder to turn a disc over just like when throwing downhill its easier to turn a disc over.
I find my lighter discs beat in significantly faster likely due to the density of the plastic. If you through often, it stands to reason you want a disc to hold its flight characteristics for the longest possible time.
Force = Mass*Acceleration. Sorry my inner engineer is screaming. Inertia is the correct term. Inertia is directly related to the mass of an object. The more mass an object has, the more it resists change - more inertia. So yes, the heavier disc fights through the wind because of it's higher inertia.
I'm pushing 50 and the lighter mass drivers help me now. I'm much better with upper-150's to mid-160's personally. If I have a headwind, though, they get flippy. So I move up in mass, but I don't do well above 172. Putting and mids are different. I seem to control max weights way better. If I was better at driving, it might be different, but that's what works for me. This wasn't the case at all 20 years ago. I could control max-weight drivers better when my HS baseball arm was still intact. (I was all RHFH back then, too. A Banshee that had hit 2 or 3 trees was perfect. Elbow won't let me throw any sort of forehand anymore.) Anything 175 dumps out early for me now because I just can't get on it like I used to. Also, spot on for the different runs on way-lighter Discs. My 158 Star Roadrunner acts more like a Valk should (-2/+2), for me at least. I flip hyzer it and it flexes great if I execute well. I (sadly used to) have a 172 Echo Star Roadrunner that held an anny easily from start to finish. I bought the 158 thinking it would behave similarly. Nope! I also have DX Sidewinders that flip over and roll in the 165 range especially with a little wear, but my Starlite Sidewinder at 150 is a perfectly straight driver, a totally different Disc for me. Sorry I only have Innova terms here. I'm from the 80's and 90's when it was just Innova and Discraft (and Lightning, but nobody serious threw that). I can't keep up with all the new stuff out there! Total respect for DD and other "new" companies. They look awesome.
I know this is an "old video" just wanted to chime it with my experience so far. I just watched the beginning of the video where it looked like you just took the numbers stamped as facts! :o Triology is great for the numbers, but the stamped weight is often not the measured one. My VIP Sword stamped with 168g weighs in at 175g. Love the disc ;)
I have 2 westside kings one is 157 air and the other is 167 elasto and the air disc is more floppy and I get more distance from it. I have 2 PDs that are mac weight but different runs and plastics and they have different flights but they both end up in the same spot. Just an observation... keep it up danny
Forehand rollers is another story. The easiest disc I can roll is a 150 mamba and if goes nowhere fast when it hits the grass. Full weight Gateway mystic however rolls for days
Danny I need some advice, I've been pulling my butt cheek in my backhand throws and I can't figure out what changed in my form to cause this and a bit of hip pain. I'm following through! at least with my arms and upper body.
Sounds like muscling is the problem. Maybe slow down, take shorter steps, focus on reach-back and timing slowly and get it to where it won't hurt. Then try to stay as slow as possible through the run-up and accelerate gradually. Or it could just be your shoes are too grippy and you aren't getting your plant foot to turn.
Its like you plucked the question from my brain! Since my local courses are at 5,000 plus feet altitude I bought mostly upper 160g discs. I suspect they probably fly similarly to mid 170's at sea level
Cool video and very interesting results! As a disc golfing physics professor, I love this stuff! Warning: What follows is an unsolicited physics lecture. Force/mass = acceleration (not velocity), but since a bigger acceleration means that it leaves your hand at a high final velocity, it doesn't change the logic of your point. Inertia is an object's tendency to keep moving how it's moving. If it is sitting still, it wants to keep sitting still. if it's moving, it wants to keep moving the same way, and it takes a force to make it stop/change. More mass = more inertia. Momentum = mass x velocity (which is the word I think you were looking for), but since they are proportional, again it is not a big problem for your conclusions. Rotational Inertia and Angular Momentum are also important flight characteristics related to mass distribution and speed of rotation (for possible future videos).
So the takeaway here is there's no difference in distance when thrown with the same effort, but the advantage of the heavier weight is found in stability and the roller
6 лет назад+1
Have you tried measuring the velocity of the different weight discs?
I have a 138g Boss I just bought (factory misprint for cheap so why not)... I have yet to be able to even throw it more than like 100'. No matter how hard I try to anhyzer it up it still immediately fades and flips over to the left. Maybe im throwing it too hard? Or I need to give it even more anhyzer? Help please!
This is probably a combination of things. 1. You probably don't have the arm speed to be throwing a boss. Unless you are pro level, I'd back off of the high speed driver and disc down. THat way you will be able to get the correct speed on the disc so it does it's correct flight path. 2. You are probably throwing nose up. If hte disc is only going 100', something is massively impacting the disc flight. 100' is almost jump putt distance and even your putter will go that far. A boss is designed for 400' distance. So your nose angle is probably up which is stalling out the disc. 3. You are probably throwing too high. Again, if you are only getting 100', it has to be doing something to stall it out. I'd guess that height is the problem. So, disc down, lower your nose angle, and throw at a moderate height and you will start bombing them out there! Good luck. : )
Some other aspect of the disc's flight are the centripetal and centrifugal forces that happen as the disc spins trough the air. Those forces have a lot to do with the stability of the discs. The biggest reason there were no statistical significance to the distance between the two weights is due to these forces being an unaccounted for are confounds in the test. The lighter disc spun much faster than the heavier disc as it took much less force to get the disc to spin. Inertia states that an object tends toward the continue what is is currently doing unless it is changed by an external force. The wind resistance was correct as to why the disc slows down, but you did not account for the different speeds of spin that enacted with the wind resistance to change the properties of the flight. For this test to be accurate you would need to spin the discs at the same rate as well as controlling the angle, release, and force. Not to mention you appear to have rounded a bit on the last throw of the max weight going toward the basket.
By the way, I love the channel, videos, and think you should get a shot at commentary. My game has improved average of 7 strokes since learning from you. Most pragmatic information on RUclips for DG beginners IMO. I also love physics!
Maybe I'm not the best person to test being my longest drives are something like 330 feet right now. (I'm in my late 30's and only been playing a year so arm speed just isn't there yet but it's getting better) I've noticed this with a Leopard 3. I have one 175 and another 153. I find it much easier to flip the 153 and therefore get more distance. I also have a 160 roadrunner I use for turnover shots and a crazy 130 roadrunner that works great for a 250 ft roller that must go right at the end. I know a roadrunner is really understable already but the 130 roadrunner is nearly impossible to throw without turning all the way over into a roller. So in my opinion you are correct in your assessment that lighter weight discs tend to be more understable and so it's easier to get a better or max flight and go further. My two cents for what it's worth.
The difference in weight is less about release speed its about rim weight of the disc. They have different inertial coefficients. A disc with a heavier rim will fly further than on with a lighter rim. Once a heavy rim is in rotation it should stay in rotation longer than a lighter disc and in turn keep its flight. But this is grams. I only know this through throwing discus. A higher rim weight percentage at the same weight should go far. But they are harder to throw.
Everything under driver I throw max weight because I noticed that I got more distance at max weight due to more snap or rip out of my hand. The lighter discs tend to fly out of my hand and not rip out.
Interesting. You like light putters for the added glide? Personally I wouldn't use a light putter. I would go heavier if i could. Less affected by the wind, I like the feel of a heavier putter for shorter putts also.
So it’s not just me! I have tried a couple of different “air” discs and have not been able to get any extra distance from them as my normal weights? I figured it just shows how incredibly terrible I am at throwing a disc!🤷🏻♂️
I would say runs make more difference then weigh ...i got a star lite mamba that is more stable than my gstar 169 mamba ...both are used about the same
This is the exact question I've been asking myself lately. I'm throwing a crank SS 160g for 400+ plus on a real nice line. I can't get a 175 destroyer to flip.. at all. Unless I force over the anhyzer on release.
Love your videos Danny. I think you missed on this one though. Most of your comparison throws were at different heights, and as you know height is a key factor in distance. Without wind or in a tail wind the lighter disc should go a little farther. It's also been my experience that a max weight disc goes quite a bit farther throwing down hill, and a lighter disc goes farther uphill. If you did a more complete test, with many more throws, I think you would get more thorough results. Try throwing 50 throws with each disc. throw out the 5 shortest, and the 5 longest, then average the distance for the remaining 40.
That's exactly what I thought. I threw the lighter disc higher most of the time and it didn't go any farther. If anything, more height would exaggerate the difference. I didn't have a big hill but the first day of throwing did have a downhill and uphill to it but that still didn't make a difference. I would say I threw 20-30 times with each disc and I chose the throws that best exemplified the differences. I'm not sure how I could have conveyed this better in the video but it wasn't just what you see.
What do you mean when you say "best exemplified the differences?" Do you mean that you chose the two throws, one from each disc, that were the most different? I like Steve's idea of averaging them to show the difference on average. Higher won't inherently exaggerate the difference. Though we tend to use simplified approximations, the flight of any disc is actually a quite complex feat of physics. Take for example what you consider your absolute most perfect rip on a long drive. The one that hits the line perfect, gets full flight, and maximizes your personal distance. Now you throw a nearly identical throw that hits an aerial peak 10 feet higher. That can change the flight line completely.
That's what I mean Danny. Your launch characteristics have to be identical to make a comparison. Since we are human, that's not really possible. The best solution would be to do a lot of throws. The more throws the more accurate the results. If you could have a friend help you and use a speed gun that would help also. I think a really thorough test like this would be very popular. Your preliminary results might prove to be true. Also it would only be proof for someone at your arm speed. For a slower, or faster thrower, it might be different.
I disagree with the concept that one can throw a 165 gm. disc faster than a 175 gm. the difference is like comparing a dime vs. a nickel the weight difference in comparison to mass of your arm and hand is Negligible. I believe that they may fly different because we are throwing a rotary wing not a ball. the science behind a rotary wing is complex so I will refrain from discussion. What I am stating is that your arm speed is your arm speed. Throw over a chronograph as I have and weight is irrelevant. performance for each disc. The same disc in the same weight in the same plastic might fly different.
In my experience my blizzard discs 135-145g are EXTREMELY understable compared to the same molds at 175g in champion plastic. Yes they tend to be domier, but the weight seems to contribute a lot. Less weight = more spin from the same throw = more turnover. I literally cannot throw my blizzard ape full power without a ton of Hyzer or it flips into the ground. Same disc in champion plastic Is so overstable i have to throw on full anhyzer
A few things... First would be that you probaly should have tested with more discs in those weight ranges. Individual distance drivers can vary pretty significantly in stability. Also would have helped you get more data points. But budgets exist, so I get it. Also, the weight itself doesn't affect the stability... A lot of other factors do, but the actual weight of a disc doesn't affect stability at all. The density of the plastic may perhaps affect the way that it dries after being released from the mold and it dries into a less stable shape, but the weight itself has literally no bearing on stability. The fast speed with which you can throw a lighter disc also affects the stability, but the weight does not. I think if you were throwing at max power that would be a bit different also. If your body isnt using the extra bit of acceleration afforded it by the lighter weight disc to it's full potential, then it's wasted potential. I think you'd find that if you threw a lot of discs and gathered a lot of data that a 167g will fly about 15 feet farther on average. Now you also need to keep in mind that often times it won't look like it flew any farther, because it will have flown farther right or left than the max weight one, but if you measured from the exact spot you threw to the exact spot it landed, they actually will fly farther. Now to the naked eye, they'll look almost the exact same almost every time. Relative to where you were aiming, they will likely end up similarly distance from eacht other, but the further research and careful measurement will show that the lighter weight one will be farther from the point it left your hand than the heavier one. Just not noticably so for such a small weight difference.
I love how he cut out 5 seconds of him saying that the air plastic isn't worth it, because he just made an advertising video for buying the air plastic because it goes further, which isn't true according to him @5:30
This video was published in September of 2018.. My point was that lighter discs don't go farther, but they are faster out of the hand. So if you're struggling with getting distance drivers up to speed the air plastic is great. If you already can get drivers up to speed and are looking for more distance, air plastic probably isn't going to help.
@@DannyLindahl However, in your recent video you stated that getting the air plastic could get you a distance record. I'm not sure how 20 grams can effect hand speed. Look, I appreciate the reply and willingness to communicate with my smart ass comment, I just feel your in a tough situation where you produce content on your own and advertisements for your job and sometimes those two conflict.
@@corey8910 I appreciate you keeping me honest! In the DD video I meant a personal distance record not a world record. That's because for someone who doesn't have the armspeed for a driver, it can add some distance! But, my point in this video was that if you already can get a distance driver up to speed, you're going to benefit more from the reliable flight of a heavy disc because the lighter discs aren't going to get you any extra distance. The two videos are talking to different audiences. As I've worked with DD more, I've learned a majority of disc golfers can't throw more than about 330' and for those, the air plastic is beneficial because it allows them to get distance drivers up to speed. But for those with around 400'+ of power, the air plastic isn't going to go any farther because the disc is already getting up to speed and the extra velocity is canceled out by less inertia. If I were to make this video today, I would specify the difference and likely demonstrate it as well. Jeez, sorry for writing a book. I enjoy talking disc golf so I'm happy to chat in the comments!
@@DannyLindahl You did cut out some of your video/audio though right? I don't remember there being a long pause and black screen, your editing is better than that so it seems off.
@@corey8910 I didn't. I believe this was when I was learning how to use Da Vinci Resolve and I messed up somewhere in the timeline leaving the blank space.
i have a 156 a 164 & 173 mvp wave my longest with my 173 is about 350 & longest with my 156 about 30 seconds later same hole is about 540 & consistantly out drive 173 with the 156 by avarage of 75 to 100 feet !
What did you think of the Best Disc Golf Discs video on disc weight? They did have a bigger sample size but they seemed to come to the traditional conclusion
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think they actually threw any discs. They talked a lot about the science behind it, but I don't think they actually did any experiments.
Maybe someone needs to make a robot that throws the discs at the same speed, consistent release point (not a knock on you Danny but we are all human) to test this theory and get a definitive answer! Great video and love the work you do Danny!!!
Get Adam Savage of Mythbusters on the job.
Someone had already tried making a robot throw one .. Couldn't get it to work properly
The channel Stuff Made Here built one, but like a lot of what they do, it was pretty janky and probably not the best demonstration.
You have no idea how long I've been waiting for this video. Nice job Danny
As an older rec player who has been playing for quite a few years I must say I understand the charm of the lighter discs and the fact that it seems to wear my arm out less, however in windy conditions it's hard to beat a max weight disc and I must say I agree totally on distance not a significant difference
Great video, and the thinking was pretty close to Newtonian physics. Just wanted to clarify some things (mechanical engineer and avid disc golfer), and add . It should allow you to make better disc selection when you get to the teepad.
- Newton's 2nd law: Force = mass*acceleration, not Force = mass*velocity . But, same general idea. You want the exit velocity of the disc from your hand (the disc is accelerated by your body's swing) to be as high as possible so that your disc has as much force on it as possible. In other words, it takes greater acceleration from your body to throw a 175 gram disc with the same amount of force as throwing a 168 gram disc.
- Inertia (Newton's 1st law): an object's tendency to stay at rest/motion unless acted upon by an outside force. In the case of disc golf, outside forces that we neither like nor can avoid are drag forces (the force of air pushing directly opposite against the force of your disc), and frictional forces (the force from the leaves and, grass pushing against your disc as your disc rolls or skips forward on the ground). Also, in extreme cases, there are also impact forces that we can avoid, such as shanking your disc into a tree.
- Rotational inertia (Newton's 2nd law applies to this as well): same thing as F = m*a, but instead of resistance to translational forces (forces in the x-y-z directions) it's the resistance of an object to rotational forces. Basically, you want as much rotational acceleration ("high speed spin") as possible on a disc. This will help propel it through the air for a longer period of time.
So, regarding inertia on rollers: the greater mass of an object, the greater inertia it has. So, you're correct in thinking a 175g roller will go farther than a 168g roller, provided they have the same exit velocity from your hand. The key is to get stronger so that you can throw with more force, such that you can take advantage of the greater inertia of max weight discs. Danny can throw with a lot of force because he's a skilled disc golfer. He'll want to keep throwing 11-13 speed drivers at max weight (175g) to take advantage of the greater inertia. For the average/intermediate player, I'd assume they'll probably be better off throwing 7-9 speed drivers at max weight (172-175g), and 9-11 speed drivers at around 168-172g. For the beginner, they'll want to throw lightweight discs (sub 168g).
TLDR: If you're a really skilled & strong thrower, you'll want to be throwing max weight drivers. If you're an intermediate thrower, you will probably be better off throwing 168-172g drivers. If you're a beginner, throw discs with weight below 168g.
Another great video! It would be great to see a part 2 to this with slower speed discs and/or maybe someone with a slower arm to compare. Does arm speed matter with disc weight??? Part 2! Part 2! :)
Great video Danny! It does seem this video would have been a perfect opportunity to use the radar gun, as the release speed of the throws is the only variable you're not accounting for. To truly test the relative behavior of these discs, they'd have to be released not only at the same height and angle, but at the same speed as well. I find my own throws vary by 3-4 MPH sometimes, even when the bio-mechanics feel basically the same. An extra 4 MPH on an open field with some height generates a much farther throw, sometimes as much as 50 feet. If you're throwing from a stationary, consistent position, you can use the gun to take readings for you automatically. Just set it up in "CON" mode and position it so that it's pointing at the area the disc is passing through on release. After a drive, you can go back and check the result. Keep up the awesome work!
I've never used CON mode before! I'll look into that! Thank you!
Danny Lindahl Great to hear! All you have to do is hold down the little black button on the left side for a few seconds until the screen reads "CON", and then the device will automatically take a reading on any object moving over 25 MPH that enters its detection cone.
I know I’m late to the party on this video, lol, but I actually really enjoyed it! As a woman, I get scrutinized for throwing max weight discs. Like for realz, people always tell me I should try something like the air or blizzard or lower 160’s discs. I do bag a couple lighter discs, but they are understable molds to begin with & having them lighter means I don’t have to crank on a backhand anyhyzer hard to get them to hold the line. I dunno, but it was nice to see the distance between max weight & lighter weight discs were nearly the same🥏 😆
They might not realize youre already throwing good distance. Personally I get my best distance with my blizzard katana (very lightweight) but in addition to great distance and being dynamic its also my least predictable disc outside of a tailwind. It tends to flip over and carry with the wind especially or turn into a kite.
They're not bowling balls, where the guideline is 1 pound of ball for every 10 pounds of person. Throw what's comfortable for you.
Bro I had a dream I asked you to make a video on this specific subject last night. Thanks for reading my mind and putting in the work to get some conclusions. You da man Dan!
Lighter weight accelerates faster (or the same velocity with less power) so there is more high-speed turn so the light disc flips but the heavier one doesn't, but speed of a light disc slows down faster than heavier disc's so low speed fade comes earlier than with a heavier disc so maybe lighter weight discs have a "bigger" S line sideways or the S is not in a direct line but more towards high-seed turn but not necessarily longer one. Would be interesting to see two different molds, heavier and more understand and lighter less stable one so that flight patters would be the same. I think that is almost impossible to test, or find two discs like that.
Personally I haven't noticed much difference if weight difference is around 5 grams. I don't think most people can even feel it. It is a teaspoon of sugar.
For players with less power, lighter discs are better, if the disc is stable. They get faster speed in the beginning with faster acceleration and discs turns over more easily. If disc is far less stable, then they should get similar results with a heavier disc.
It is clear that wind impacts light object more than a heavier object no matter what the wind direction is.
I'm not a physics guy though and maybe someone with science knowledge disagrees with me and that's fine. I have no idea if my writing makes any sense. I don't comment much, but felt like commenting this one.
The manufacturers need to build a machine that "throws" discs precisely the same every time and record the results for a variety of discs in different plastics, weights, etc.
The disc does not accelerate anymore after it leaves the throwers hand. I dont say that you stated it but it might be read that way.
^ I've been saying this for years.
^^^ What dust man said*
I think that a Coke Light accelerates faster because its lighter than regular Coke. Im not a physcist, this is just my opinion. And if its my opinion its always the right opinion.
You forgot to consider the spin or rotation you can impart on the disc on release based on weight. Weight will effect the inertia of the spin and how long a high speed spin can be maintained on the disc through the resistance of air and wind which effects the shape of the shot, not just distance. A disc in flight is basically like an airplane wing and the speed of the spin helps keep that wing stable and gliding longer, resisting the fade at the end of the flight.
Lighter discs spin more initially but have less inertia to fight air and wind resistance trying to slow down that spin.
Discs sharing the same name can be very misleading because different weights and runs create totally different flight paths and behaviors. Disc age also will play a big role, a disc you get used to for 6 months will generally fly less stable/hyzer than a brand new one. You might find it more predictable, but it will generally be less stable than when you first bought it.
This was the best comment so far.
I think this comment has some profound insight. There is a max weight and no min weight per PDGA rules. This must be for a reason. It makes a lot of sense that the increased rotational inertia from a heavier disc would make the difference in resisting wind forces on the roll axis (tilting left or right).
If you look at top pros throwing, when the disc lands, they are still spinning VERY fast. I believe getting a disc to spin faster, and having more inertia to maintain the gyroscopic effect, is the prevailing factor in disc weight, and why a heavier weight disc offers a competitive advantage (assuming threshold flight velocity can be achieved).
I got into disc golf because I like throwing objects into baskets.
Now I find myself taking screenshots of people’s comments like yours so I can study aerodynamics lol
If my teachers from 40 years ago could see me now.
Thanks for taking the time breaking that down.
@@blackrifle3932
Very informative!
I did the same. 😀
@@brickchains1a nickel weighs 5 G
I am quite surprised at how close my Lucid Escape and Lucid Air Escape fly to each other. There is a 10 gram weight difference. I see little to no difference in stability and the flight of these two discs is so close that I've become quite comfortable throwing either. I reach for the heavier one if the wind is up. My experience with distance differences shows nothing more than my inconsistent throws ... :) Sometimes the light one goes farther, sometimes the heavier one does. LOL. My farthest throw ever was with a 163 gram disc ... perhaps as I improve and get more consistent I will be able to see more of a difference with different weight discs. I think in Danny's case he did get a more stable Lucid Air due to manufacturing/run difference ... that's another variable that we have to account for.
I'd love to see a sampling of throws rather than judging things off of one throw. I get that it takes time and everything, but even a sample size of 5 throws per disc can help show repeatable results.
Im still waiting for someone to make a machine to test with.
Have only started playing like, 3 months ago. After my starter pack, which was almost all max weight discs, I bought a 166 star leopard. It's nice for forehands and such, but I found that I just don't like the feel of lighter discs, they're too flimsy in my amateur hands. Max weight has way more feedback about how the angle is and I tend to pace myself more with max weight (go slower) and gain more control from it. I just ordered a new set of max weight discs, and I can't wait to break them in on the course. Thanks for all the videos, so much good information for beginners here :)
I recently completely reformatted my bag so that it is set up heavily around this idea. I found it harder to keep track of 15 different discs flight patterns are. So the majority of my bag is Wraiths and Leopard 3's, weights ranging from 175g to about 155g. The heavier ones are more stable for windy days and hyzers and I use the lighter ones for turnovers or hyzer flips, because I throw primarily RHBH. I have a couple other drivers and a couple other mids for upshots. I have found it to be a positive changer for me. But I'm very much an amateur. Or maybe an experienced beginner. I've been playing on and off for about 14 years, probably not using a lot of my discs to their fullest potential, but this was a step in the right direction for me in order to simplify my game.
Thanks for your time.
This was a good exploration into a common question.
First of all, F=dp/dt (Chang in momentum over change in time) which can be rewritten as F=ma. Secondly, and more importantly, I would suggest researching the moment of inertia of discs when thinking about weight. The moment of inertia is basically how hard it is to spin a disc how long it keeps that spin based on the weight distribution throughout the disc. Lighter discs have a lower moment of inertia which means they get more rotation out of the hand but they lose this rotation faster.
Nice breakdown analysis Elon.
I'd love to see someone do their thesis or dissertation on the flight characteristics of discs. That would be pretty damn cool.
This is pretty much my Reddit post from a month and a half ago. Nice to see the theories that were discussed in action!
You nail it with the 'trust' part. I throw 175g Firebird or 156g Boss.....each end of the spectrum. You know what to expect from the disc and therefore trust it and how it will perform.
I throw mostly max weight discs mainly because I like the feel of a heavier disc when throwing. Another reason I like max weight is I feel that it may not become less stable as quickly as a lighter disc due to wear and tear. And my 3rd reason is.... wind. Especially a strong head wind. I believe, or at least it feels like, the heavier plastic will cut through and possibly fly further with better accuracy than lighter plastic. When you design your game, you design it based on "Worst Case Scenario" . You always need to be prepared for the worst weather possible.... if that day comes and all you have is 150g plastic in your bag, then you might have a difficult time. I've played in various Japan Opens over the years and have thrown and have watched the top pros throw the 150g class plastic and yes, there were days with a lot of head wind. The top pros did a great job but there was no doubt, they would have played better with max weight plastic. I saw many of them throw right OB because the light plastic could not handle the wind like max weight.
I was just shopping for some discs and was confused as what weights I should pick. After a bit of RUclips research, I concluded that due to the fact that I live in windy Kansas, I probably ought to go with the heavier end of the weight range!
Another excellent video/subject, Danny! I have always wondered this, but am not a consistent enough thrower to test it out.
Great vid. You've compiled a very helpful series I've been using to tighten my game. Thanks!
hi Danny yes another great video thanks. Well after many throws with many types of discs, for myself the lighter discs go much farther. 169 bolt 310', 158 bolt 325' and a 155 bolt 350+ (sometimes much further). I've done it over and over with similar results. Regards gud buddy
Maybe more variation is achieved when not pushing the discs to 450' distance.
Midranges for me are max weight. Drivers are 168-172 for me.
For me the deciding factor is arm pain. Lighter discs enable me to throw much longer without bothering my pre-existing injuries. And when it's windy I usually just switch to an overstable mid that is heavier.
This is exactly what I need to know right now
The discs I use are between 140g and 150g depending on the disc and wind direction. I'm thinking you need to play the right angles to the wind, so a little more like sailing maybe. I do tend to do S curves. If I'm throwing into a strong wind, I will use something heavier. However I am 66 and started playing just 5 years ago.
I've used Stingrays as my main understable mid-range discs since the 90s. Lately I've been carrying two, one 160g for tailwinds and calm conditions (rare in Kansas City) and one 180g for headwinds and crosswinds. When I throw them both in calm conditions, I find that the heavier disc is more stable, but only slightly. It's really in the wind where there's a significant difference in performance.
I throw 150g very stiff Pro Wraiths. Super pop top dome. One I have is very under stable, its counterpart is more stable than some max weights I've thrown. When I play a course that requires a lot of distance shots for multiple rounds ill use the overstable to ease up my shoulder (old injury).
Other than those my entire bag is almost all 170-173g. For some reason when I throw multiples I always end up liking the 170 class better. Great video!
Hey Danny, I have a question:
Is it possible that the lighter weight is also making the lift of the airfoil have more of an effect causing the disc to maintain altitude for longer? I bought a basket to practice putting and it's unbelievable how far my 130g DX Skeeter flies without even putting any power behind it at all. I'm curious to know what your opinion/experience is with this, I just got a 150g TeeBird to test it out on drivers
Great video, Danny. My go to discs are lightweight Innova R-Pro Boss discs (ranging from 140's to upper 160's) and I determine which one based on wind conditions (lighter for tailwind and heavier for headwind with no wind go-to being a 158). One thing to consider is form/technique for the different releases. It looks like you have about the same amount of power using a hyzer or an anhyzer line. However, I find that I can throw a hyzer line with more power and more consistently than an anhyzer line. So there is a doubling effect because I can throw with more force (due to technique) as well as imparting a higher velocity on top of that due to the lighter weight of the disc. I believe that's why I have consistently gotten much better distance from my lighter discs. Being 46 years old though, my form is not nearly as smooth when trying to throw anhyzer distance drives. Throwing a less stable, but heavier, disc would allow a similar line using a hyzer release, but the heavier weight would reduce the applied force. I think it's that doubling effect that has really helped me. For reference, my longest with no wind is consistently around the 420' range. So, I'm not a big arm per se, but not light either. Just wanted to provide perhaps another element to consider when considering that many players--especially new players--likely don't deliver the same amount of force for a hyzer line vs an anhyzer line. I could be wrong. It might just be my own technique limitation, but maybe that is the case for others too. Keep up the awesome work!!
Some good research here. In regards to your aerodynamic conundrum, heavier discs do have more momentum, which is more or less synonomous with inertia. HOWEVER the reason heavier discs are less affected by wind is just due to the way that air resistance is calculated. Mass has an inverse relationship with the force of air resistance.
I've found that some lighter discs are more stable, some are less stable. But I know for a fact I can throw lighter discs farther.
The other day I mashed on a max weight lucid sheriff on a big anhyzer flex--full flight, no stall, no spike finish--about 430 ft. Then I threw an equal weight lucid enforcer on a flat line that minimally turned and finished pretty hard hyzer, and it went 470 ft. I was really shocked. I think I subconsciously commit much more to a higher stability disc because I trust it won't turn and burn.
Troy Reichert This is what I’m finding. I subconsciously let up on my less stable discs. Think I’m going to start buying more OS discs and see if I can start upping my distance.
Thanks for the videos.
ok, so:
-both discs have the exact same aerodynamic drag. shape shape, weight doesn't affect this. The idea is that a lighter weight can be pulled at a higher speed with same GRIP pressure. Even the heavier disc will turn more and go farther with a faster start, but a beginner might not have as fast of a pull or as much GRIP as a pro. This is kinda negated when you aim for the same release velocity with both discs. Energy is mass × speed × speed, so speed counts twice as much as weight.
- That air disc has the air bubbles on the rim, but not the flight plate. This lowers it's rotational inertia along with the weight. It's easier to SPIN, so the extra stability is from gyroscopic precession. If the regular disc was a figure skater spinning with her arms out, the air disc would be like pulling her arms in a bit, lol.
-plastic shrinks as it cools. Some more than others. Adding air bubbles makes it worse. They prolly use a different mold for the air disc in hopes of the proper shape when it cools. Just a thought.
Thank you. I didn't mean to say the lighter disc had more drag, just the effect of the drag would have a greater effect because of the lower inertia. The Lat64 Air discs actually have bubbles in the flight plate as well. This was a result of a completely different run having a higher PLH (I need to test the PLH of these discs still). As for the air plastic, if they used a different mold they would have to get it reapproved and it's not a separate entry on the PDGA list. So they use the same mold, just with bubbles. I agree though, that's likely where a lot of the inconsistencies come from.
I have also found that lighter discs are less stable, but within a few grams isn't a lot of difference in distance. I have a couple star-lite discs, such as a Wraith that is 137 grams. It is ridiculous flippy, but if I pull that thing on a good hyzer in a tailwind, it will outdistance my regular star Wraith by an easy 40-50 feet (that gets it out over 350' - I am not a big arm). That said, I never throw it into a headwind (pretty much because I can't accurately judge and control it).
I had a Viking that was somewhere around 171 to 174g, and no matter if I threw it hard I never turned it over (although back when I was throwing it a lot my arm speed wasn't as fast); when I lost that one, I bought a new Viking, this one at 166g; if I throw it hard, it really wants to turn; it's actually a great hyzer flip disc when you mash on it. If I back off it, it can actually hold a hyzer. Pretty cool to have that versatility in a disc.
More mass= more stability. I'm 6 months in playing disc golf, and have been buying midrange discs around 170g and have been getting drivers in the 160s range. As a beginner, I went more understable with my drivers, but can really turn them over now. I'm at a crossroad as to buy more stable light discs, or move toward heavier understable discs to still be able to shape shots as my home course is basically one wooded tunnel after another. My favorite disc is a 179g Big Z Comet. I seem to be able to park it where I want. 3 months in, I got my first ace with the Comet. Thoughts?
If all other factors are same besides weight, then yes lower weight is less stable, more finicky, and affected more by wind. Plastic color, dome, parting line height, type of plastic all can affect flight also. You need to take those factors into account.
I just got a 127g Katana and it did add about 30 or 40 feet to my drive on calm days versus my 170-175g discs, giving me a max 330 of so feet on a flat surface (I am a noddle arm, but that is real distance and not internet distance - lol). Have not thrown it into the wind yet. But gosh.....it is so light. I am not throwing it near trees as it got caught in a couple of them, and a 127g disc is not tumbling down all that much; it does get caught in trees quite easily. 127g Katana comes out of the hand superfast, but with lower interta it slows down toward the end quite a bit more than the heavier discs.
Great video Danny, thanks for sharing your knowledge :)
I'm not a weak guy but for throwing I do have old man used and abused shoulders. I like lighter discs.
Me too...!
I find forehand to be less taxing on the shoulder.
the wind resistance (drag) is based on the coefficient of friction (which has to do with the shape - all things being equal) - the lighter weight in and off itself does not affect the wind resistance
Technically, force/mass = acceleration, not velocity. Great video though.
Yes, but Momentum = Mass x Velocity
Agreed :) He said both in the video.
F=ma. Don't forget it, kids
Very fun and informative.. But you say the disc stops flying because of wind resistance.. I'd imagine gravity has a lot to do with that as well.. I also think that the players at distance competitions choose lighter discs to combat gravity during the initial launch phase more effectively. As well as the wind will carry a lighter disc further than a heavier disc. I've noticed that throwing up high affects the spin and speed of a disc exponentially and most of this energy loss is from fighting gravity not air.
Hey buddy, love your videos. They have helped me out a lot. I have a question. I throw a chamion katana around 230' consistently. The flight rating is (S/13 G/5 T/-3 F/3) I'm thinking I need to try some new discs. I don't think ive got the strength to throw the katana the way it should be thrown. I dont know that much about discs and flight ratings, especially the kinds I need to use. I was wondering, based of this info if you would recommend a driver for me to try out to get some more distance?
I'd go for something with a lot less speed, maybe a leopard or equivalent for starters. You'll be able to control it a lot better, and with more control comes the ability to put it on that max distance line. I'm just starting out too, and my go to is a teebird (similar to leopard, but more stable), but I'm looking to get a leopard also
@@davidmadill3699 thanks!
Ok Professor my brain hurts. Great video
But, is there any difference on how high you can throw them? For example thumbers over tall stuff, would assume the lighter one is going higher
Magnus s. Dangit I didn’t test that! Great idea though. I’d guess the lighter Discs go higher.
Wouldn't the lighter disc run more chance of damaging something like your shoulder/elbow?
Like throwing hard with nothing in your hand...
i think you are totally right
DD needs to get you a drone to show the overhead flight of the disc instead of the rear view.
+1
I have not try those theories. I kinda want to try it now. Great video Danny.
Fun experiment i think I'll try
I have two s-line DDx discs by Discmania, one is 175 and the other 167. I often see them land very close to each other as was the case with your test. However, I feel that the lighter one is easier to flip up and I have had longer drives with it, not just very often (mostly end up near each other still).
Just a small point, Danny. The equation is F=MA - Force = Mass * Acceleration. If F remains constant, and M reduces, then A increases.
The only difference I see is when theres wind the lighter weight ones glide upwards higher then the heavier ones distance not much difference in no wind just different lines
A better test would be to find a max weight disc. Eg maverick. Find a more stable mold. Eg explorer in lighter weight. So that they have the same stability. My own opinion about weight is the fade usually gets less cut to it compared to a max weight disc with the same stability.
been watching plenty of in the bags and pros throw varying weights. Barsby for example has a few 168 to 172 range discs. Also so does Nathan Queen - 168 star wraith. I like to have a little bit of it all except in mids which i like a little more meat on. Wind can catch some discs and I've found in some molds the lighter discs are more overstable and break in better. Not that having max weight isn't key for higher skill, but some situations and certain feels lighter is better. Oh and most of Calvin's destroyers i believe were 170-172
Is the lighter disc getting a distance advantage in super distance comps because they're putting them up high and letting the wind carry them? making the lighter discs able to be pushed further than the heavier discs?
Yes. If you watch any of those desert videos, (particularly the one with Jussi and Avery Jenkins), they explain how you throw VERY high with LOTS of anhyzer, and the light-weight disc is then carried by the wind as you expose the bottom of the disc to those 60+ mph winds. The kind of throw in big throwing competitions is not a golf shot. That's one thing Danny didn't mention.
Yes! The wind slowing the discs down doesn't have nearly as much of an effect when it's a drastic tailwind.
Yes. Lighter discs get up to speed quicker, but they also lose speed quicker.
Momentum = m×v if you consider the disc as a rigid body with no rotation. You have to consider the energy that is used to rotate the disc, which is more the heavier the disc is.
If the discs are dimensionally the same, your supposition is incorrect. Lighter discs are not less stable. They are faster. You are mistaking the higher speed they achieve for less stability. The heavier discs will achieve a similar flight when thrown at the same speed. But this is all assuming that the discs are equals in regards to dimension and volume. If they are not, then THAT, not the weight, is the cause of the difference.
This Danny.
Steve Treehots I know he's a DD guy but if we could put a super lightweight Spirit in his hands it'd blow his mind. Spirits are one of the most overstable discs ever and the really light ones I've seen were even more OS, but I think again that it's a symptom of the higher speed achieved exacerbating the already extreme amount of lift that it's wing promotes. Speed almost always causes discs to lose stability in flight but there ARE exceptions. 150 class banshees and firebirds also have a tendency to be ridiculously overstable.
I think it's pretty clear that Danny knows this. You could rephrase his conclusion to support this way of phrasing it. Rather than "Pros throw max weight for more stability" it's "Pros throw max weight because the greater the inertia of the disc, the less the velocity changes over the course of the flight, and the more predictable the flight path.
Kieran Mullee It could also be said that they are more reliable because they naturally have less glide. The less glide a disc has the more it takes the characteristics of projectile motion in flight rather than disc/wing physics. Heavier weight and/or wider wings inhibit glide, and a disc that predictably dumps out at a certain range for you is valuable where shot placement is critical.
I find it odd that Danny keeps saying that lighter weight discs are less stable, in the same breath that he explains how much more stable the really lightweight disc is than the max weight. The disc's geometry determines it's stability. The discs weight determines the amount of force needed to accelerate it to the speed necessary to achieve it's intended flight path. If, as Danny supposed, the added speed of a lightweight disc was negated by the increased wind resistance experienced at that speed, then any motion in an atmosphere would, by extension, be impossible.
Danny is great and does great videos. But I disagree a bit. Some additional factors may be at play. 167 is not that light. If you are Novice, have slower arm speed and less **snap, throw less than 325’, you must try a 157-160g driver. We’re talking calm wind, low wind left to right, or tailwind. Less than 157g is getting too light. Drastically changed my game for the better, control and distance. I prefer firm yet grippy plastic over hard rigid. Then for headwind I go 170g+. To note my putter and midrange are max weight 175g.
Another good video. Idea for Version 2 of this video: Recruit a second thrower who normally gets either 25% more distance, or better yet 25% less distance than Danny. I certainly can't rip it like any of the pro's. Maybe recruit one of the ladies for another test, and add a 155-160g disk to the mix.
Force/mass = acceleration, not velocity... but yeah it's kind of a proxy for velocity. Same force exerted on the smaller mass means greater acceleration, so the disc should have a higher velocity assuming that both discs are accelerated for the same amount of time.
At the speeds that these discs are traveling, the drag is a function of the square of the velocity. The momentum of the disc (mass * velocity) will be affected by the forces acting on it (lift, gravity, and drag). Force equals a change in momentum over time. The drag force is less for the heavier disc b/c it isn't traveling as fast (assuming that the discs have similar aerodynamics). So the lighter disc will leave your hand traveling faster, but it will also lose more energy due to drag b/c of this.
Then there's the angular momentum/rotational kinetic energy that each disc has... and it just goes south from there.
Great explanation, all round. I thought you struck a good balance between looking at it analytically and doing some experiments. Seems like the disc manufacturers could produce a devices that "throws" a disc at least kinda like a person... but with far more precision so that they could really accurately determine the flight parameters. At the end of the day, it probably doesn't matter that much I guess. Would be pretty cool though.
My 156g and 157g star Destroyers are my favorite drivers. Against heavy wind, I throw a 169g champion Destroyer that I've beaten in. I only throw the 169g champion Destroyer 330ft but throw the lighter star Destroyers over 400ft...
Force/mass=acceleration not velocity.
Superb videos Danny keep them up!!!!
Did you just tell me that when it comes to distance (and accuracy as well, it seemed) I may as well ask for random weights when I purchase discs?
I find lighter discs help in one situation you did not test. Throwing up hill I can get lighter discs to go farther that the same disc that is max weight.
That's probably because lighter discs have more lift than heavier discs. Lift vs gravity.
@@CurtisMishleau throwing a flippier disc uphill will go further than a stable disc. Not because of lift but because they stay straight longer. When you throw uphill it is harder to turn a disc over just like when throwing downhill its easier to turn a disc over.
Danny, love your videos, but don’t you need to do multiple throws and look at the averages, rather than just a couple of good throws? Thanks.
I find my lighter discs beat in significantly faster likely due to the density of the plastic. If you through often, it stands to reason you want a disc to hold its flight characteristics for the longest possible time.
Danny, can you explain disc runs. I'm not sure how they work, do discs of a different run have a different mold. Thanks
I explained runs to Dan in one of my comfy conversations videos! ruclips.net/video/hQ9vkyYoKY4/видео.html
Force = Mass*Acceleration. Sorry my inner engineer is screaming. Inertia is the correct term. Inertia is directly related to the mass of an object. The more mass an object has, the more it resists change - more inertia. So yes, the heavier disc fights through the wind because of it's higher inertia.
I'm pushing 50 and the lighter mass drivers help me now. I'm much better with upper-150's to mid-160's personally. If I have a headwind, though, they get flippy. So I move up in mass, but I don't do well above 172.
Putting and mids are different. I seem to control max weights way better.
If I was better at driving, it might be different, but that's what works for me. This wasn't the case at all 20 years ago. I could control max-weight drivers better when my HS baseball arm was still intact. (I was all RHFH back then, too. A Banshee that had hit 2 or 3 trees was perfect. Elbow won't let me throw any sort of forehand anymore.) Anything 175 dumps out early for me now because I just can't get on it like I used to.
Also, spot on for the different runs on way-lighter Discs. My 158 Star Roadrunner acts more like a Valk should (-2/+2), for me at least. I flip hyzer it and it flexes great if I execute well. I (sadly used to) have a 172 Echo Star Roadrunner that held an anny easily from start to finish. I bought the 158 thinking it would behave similarly. Nope! I also have DX Sidewinders that flip over and roll in the 165 range especially with a little wear, but my Starlite Sidewinder at 150 is a perfectly straight driver, a totally different Disc for me.
Sorry I only have Innova terms here. I'm from the 80's and 90's when it was just Innova and Discraft (and Lightning, but nobody serious threw that). I can't keep up with all the new stuff out there! Total respect for DD and other "new" companies. They look awesome.
I know this is an "old video" just wanted to chime it with my experience so far. I just watched the beginning of the video where it looked like you just took the numbers stamped as facts! :o Triology is great for the numbers, but the stamped weight is often not the measured one. My VIP Sword stamped with 168g weighs in at 175g. Love the disc ;)
...watching the Physics of Flight 5.02 now... :P
I have 2 westside kings one is 157 air and the other is 167 elasto and the air disc is more floppy and I get more distance from it. I have 2 PDs that are mac weight but different runs and plastics and they have different flights but they both end up in the same spot. Just an observation... keep it up danny
Forehand rollers is another story. The easiest disc I can roll is a 150 mamba and if goes nowhere fast when it hits the grass. Full weight Gateway mystic however rolls for days
Danny I need some advice, I've been pulling my butt cheek in my backhand throws and I can't figure out what changed in my form to cause this and a bit of hip pain. I'm following through! at least with my arms and upper body.
Sounds like muscling is the problem. Maybe slow down, take shorter steps, focus on reach-back and timing slowly and get it to where it won't hurt. Then try to stay as slow as possible through the run-up and accelerate gradually. Or it could just be your shoes are too grippy and you aren't getting your plant foot to turn.
Its like you plucked the question from my brain!
Since my local courses are at 5,000 plus feet altitude I bought mostly upper 160g discs. I suspect they probably fly similarly to mid 170's at sea level
Wouldn't the air be thinner so it would be the opposite? I know in golf the ball goes much further at higher altitudes.
Beat discs work better at altitude than newer ones because you can throw the same hyzer angle at release as you normally do at lower altitudes.
Cool video and very interesting results! As a disc golfing physics professor, I love this stuff! Warning: What follows is an unsolicited physics lecture. Force/mass = acceleration (not velocity), but since a bigger acceleration means that it leaves your hand at a high final velocity, it doesn't change the logic of your point. Inertia is an object's tendency to keep moving how it's moving. If it is sitting still, it wants to keep sitting still. if it's moving, it wants to keep moving the same way, and it takes a force to make it stop/change. More mass = more inertia. Momentum = mass x velocity (which is the word I think you were looking for), but since they are proportional, again it is not a big problem for your conclusions. Rotational Inertia and Angular Momentum are also important flight characteristics related to mass distribution and speed of rotation (for possible future videos).
So the takeaway here is there's no difference in distance when thrown with the same effort, but the advantage of the heavier weight is found in stability and the roller
Have you tried measuring the velocity of the different weight discs?
Someone did a few years back. ruclips.net/video/CvpdTf_FjjM/видео.html
I have past shoulder issues so I throw a lot of Starlite plastic under 160grams. Only was I can get over 300ft off the teepads
I have a 138g Boss I just bought (factory misprint for cheap so why not)... I have yet to be able to even throw it more than like 100'. No matter how hard I try to anhyzer it up it still immediately fades and flips over to the left. Maybe im throwing it too hard? Or I need to give it even more anhyzer? Help please!
This is probably a combination of things. 1. You probably don't have the arm speed to be throwing a boss. Unless you are pro level, I'd back off of the high speed driver and disc down. THat way you will be able to get the correct speed on the disc so it does it's correct flight path. 2. You are probably throwing nose up. If hte disc is only going 100', something is massively impacting the disc flight. 100' is almost jump putt distance and even your putter will go that far. A boss is designed for 400' distance. So your nose angle is probably up which is stalling out the disc. 3. You are probably throwing too high. Again, if you are only getting 100', it has to be doing something to stall it out. I'd guess that height is the problem.
So, disc down, lower your nose angle, and throw at a moderate height and you will start bombing them out there! Good luck. : )
@@leewhite134 Is there a good way to test nose angle visually?
@@xxxxBadfishxxxx if you can see the top of the disc after you throw it, then it's nose up.
Some other aspect of the disc's flight are the centripetal and centrifugal forces that happen as the disc spins trough the air. Those forces have a lot to do with the stability of the discs. The biggest reason there were no statistical significance to the distance between the two weights is due to these forces being an unaccounted for are confounds in the test. The lighter disc spun much faster than the heavier disc as it took much less force to get the disc to spin. Inertia states that an object tends toward the continue what is is currently doing unless it is changed by an external force. The wind resistance was correct as to why the disc slows down, but you did not account for the different speeds of spin that enacted with the wind resistance to change the properties of the flight. For this test to be accurate you would need to spin the discs at the same rate as well as controlling the angle, release, and force. Not to mention you appear to have rounded a bit on the last throw of the max weight going toward the basket.
By the way, I love the channel, videos, and think you should get a shot at commentary. My game has improved average of 7 strokes since learning from you. Most pragmatic information on RUclips for DG beginners IMO. I also love physics!
Maybe I'm not the best person to test being my longest drives are something like 330 feet right now. (I'm in my late 30's and only been playing a year so arm speed just isn't there yet but it's getting better) I've noticed this with a Leopard 3. I have one 175 and another 153. I find it much easier to flip the 153 and therefore get more distance. I also have a 160 roadrunner I use for turnover shots and a crazy 130 roadrunner that works great for a 250 ft roller that must go right at the end. I know a roadrunner is really understable already but the 130 roadrunner is nearly impossible to throw without turning all the way over into a roller. So in my opinion you are correct in your assessment that lighter weight discs tend to be more understable and so it's easier to get a better or max flight and go further. My two cents for what it's worth.
Yeah I'm saying that the lighter weight is easier to get the initial velocity and it's much less stable out of the box.
And just to make sure I'm understanding correctly. Does more velocity = more turn?
Harry Depova yes more initial velocity is going to cause more turn.
So, what do light weigh discs do for slower arm speeds, you know, like for normal people?
The difference in weight is less about release speed its about rim weight of the disc. They have different inertial coefficients. A disc with a heavier rim will fly further than on with a lighter rim. Once a heavy rim is in rotation it should stay in rotation longer than a lighter disc and in turn keep its flight. But this is grams. I only know this through throwing discus. A higher rim weight percentage at the same weight should go far. But they are harder to throw.
Everything under driver I throw max weight because I noticed that I got more distance at max weight due to more snap or rip out of my hand. The lighter discs tend to fly out of my hand and not rip out.
My 168g Champ Thunderbird is the most overstable Thunderbird I've ever thrown.
NOBODY talks about lightweight putters for actual putting. Game changer...
Interesting. You like light putters for the added glide? Personally I wouldn't use a light putter. I would go heavier if i could. Less affected by the wind, I like the feel of a heavier putter for shorter putts also.
So it’s not just me! I have tried a couple of different “air” discs and have not been able to get any extra distance from them as my normal weights? I figured it just shows how incredibly terrible I am at throwing a disc!🤷🏻♂️
I would say runs make more difference then weigh ...i got a star lite mamba that is more stable than my gstar 169 mamba ...both are used about the same
This is the exact question I've been asking myself lately. I'm throwing a crank SS 160g for 400+ plus on a real nice line. I can't get a 175 destroyer to flip.. at all. Unless I force over the anhyzer on release.
To test let someone faster rip it. But it could be that that run is just like that until it breaks in.
b pro is a pretty stable disc to begin with, may have been better illustrated with a straighter flying disc like a trespass
Do this test with mvp fission plastic. Lighter core with more weight in rim.
Shhhhh..... we dont want people to know...
Lol
Nice video and conclusions!
Danny, are you a Swedish descendant?
Love your videos Danny. I think you missed on this one though. Most of your comparison throws were at different heights, and as you know height is a key factor in distance. Without wind or in a tail wind the lighter disc should go a little farther. It's also been my experience that a max weight disc goes quite a bit farther throwing down hill, and a lighter disc goes farther uphill. If you did a more complete test, with many more throws, I think you would get more thorough results. Try throwing 50 throws with each disc. throw out the 5 shortest, and the 5 longest, then average the distance for the remaining 40.
That's exactly what I thought. I threw the lighter disc higher most of the time and it didn't go any farther. If anything, more height would exaggerate the difference. I didn't have a big hill but the first day of throwing did have a downhill and uphill to it but that still didn't make a difference. I would say I threw 20-30 times with each disc and I chose the throws that best exemplified the differences. I'm not sure how I could have conveyed this better in the video but it wasn't just what you see.
What do you mean when you say "best exemplified the differences?" Do you mean that you chose the two throws, one from each disc, that were the most different? I like Steve's idea of averaging them to show the difference on average. Higher won't inherently exaggerate the difference. Though we tend to use simplified approximations, the flight of any disc is actually a quite complex feat of physics. Take for example what you consider your absolute most perfect rip on a long drive. The one that hits the line perfect, gets full flight, and maximizes your personal distance. Now you throw a nearly identical throw that hits an aerial peak 10 feet higher. That can change the flight line completely.
That's what I mean Danny. Your launch characteristics have to be identical to make a comparison. Since we are human, that's not really possible. The best solution would be to do a lot of throws. The more throws the more accurate the results. If you could have a friend help you and use a speed gun that would help also. I think a really thorough test like this would be very popular. Your preliminary results might prove to be true. Also it would only be proof for someone at your arm speed. For a slower, or faster thrower, it might be different.
I disagree with the concept that one can throw a 165 gm. disc faster than a 175 gm. the difference is like comparing a dime vs. a nickel the weight difference in comparison to mass of your arm and hand is Negligible. I believe that they may fly different because we are throwing a rotary wing not a ball. the science behind a rotary wing is complex so I will refrain from discussion. What I am stating is that your arm speed is your arm speed. Throw over a chronograph as I have and weight is irrelevant. performance for each disc. The same disc in the same weight in the same plastic might fly different.
Soooo want an air ballista now
In my experience my blizzard discs 135-145g are EXTREMELY understable compared to the same molds at 175g in champion plastic. Yes they tend to be domier, but the weight seems to contribute a lot. Less weight = more spin from the same throw = more turnover.
I literally cannot throw my blizzard ape full power without a ton of Hyzer or it flips into the ground. Same disc in champion plastic Is so overstable i have to throw on full anhyzer
A few things... First would be that you probaly should have tested with more discs in those weight ranges. Individual distance drivers can vary pretty significantly in stability. Also would have helped you get more data points. But budgets exist, so I get it. Also, the weight itself doesn't affect the stability... A lot of other factors do, but the actual weight of a disc doesn't affect stability at all. The density of the plastic may perhaps affect the way that it dries after being released from the mold and it dries into a less stable shape, but the weight itself has literally no bearing on stability. The fast speed with which you can throw a lighter disc also affects the stability, but the weight does not. I think if you were throwing at max power that would be a bit different also. If your body isnt using the extra bit of acceleration afforded it by the lighter weight disc to it's full potential, then it's wasted potential. I think you'd find that if you threw a lot of discs and gathered a lot of data that a 167g will fly about 15 feet farther on average. Now you also need to keep in mind that often times it won't look like it flew any farther, because it will have flown farther right or left than the max weight one, but if you measured from the exact spot you threw to the exact spot it landed, they actually will fly farther. Now to the naked eye, they'll look almost the exact same almost every time. Relative to where you were aiming, they will likely end up similarly distance from eacht other, but the further research and careful measurement will show that the lighter weight one will be farther from the point it left your hand than the heavier one. Just not noticably so for such a small weight difference.
ruclips.net/video/CvpdTf_FjjM/видео.html This video explains the science very well.
I think it's fairly safe to say that heavier discs are more consistent.
167 isn't really that much lighter why don't you throw 158 and see what happens and keep in mind a nickel weighs 5 G..
I love how he cut out 5 seconds of him saying that the air plastic isn't worth it, because he just made an advertising video for buying the air plastic because it goes further, which isn't true according to him @5:30
This video was published in September of 2018.. My point was that lighter discs don't go farther, but they are faster out of the hand. So if you're struggling with getting distance drivers up to speed the air plastic is great. If you already can get drivers up to speed and are looking for more distance, air plastic probably isn't going to help.
@@DannyLindahl However, in your recent video you stated that getting the air plastic could get you a distance record. I'm not sure how 20 grams can effect hand speed. Look, I appreciate the reply and willingness to communicate with my smart ass comment, I just feel your in a tough situation where you produce content on your own and advertisements for your job and sometimes those two conflict.
@@corey8910 I appreciate you keeping me honest! In the DD video I meant a personal distance record not a world record. That's because for someone who doesn't have the armspeed for a driver, it can add some distance! But, my point in this video was that if you already can get a distance driver up to speed, you're going to benefit more from the reliable flight of a heavy disc because the lighter discs aren't going to get you any extra distance. The two videos are talking to different audiences. As I've worked with DD more, I've learned a majority of disc golfers can't throw more than about 330' and for those, the air plastic is beneficial because it allows them to get distance drivers up to speed. But for those with around 400'+ of power, the air plastic isn't going to go any farther because the disc is already getting up to speed and the extra velocity is canceled out by less inertia. If I were to make this video today, I would specify the difference and likely demonstrate it as well. Jeez, sorry for writing a book. I enjoy talking disc golf so I'm happy to chat in the comments!
@@DannyLindahl You did cut out some of your video/audio though right? I don't remember there being a long pause and black screen, your editing is better than that so it seems off.
@@corey8910 I didn't. I believe this was when I was learning how to use Da Vinci Resolve and I messed up somewhere in the timeline leaving the blank space.
i have a 156 a 164 & 173 mvp wave my longest with my 173 is about 350 & longest with my 156 about 30 seconds later same hole is about 540 & consistantly out drive 173 with the 156 by avarage of 75 to 100 feet !
What did you think of the Best Disc Golf Discs video on disc weight? They did have a bigger sample size but they seemed to come to the traditional conclusion
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think they actually threw any discs. They talked a lot about the science behind it, but I don't think they actually did any experiments.