Romulan: "Ambassador, what are these reports about one of your ships operating under cloak?" Starfleet: "A simple misunderstanding Praetor. It is a phasing device, for passing through matter. Why? Were your sensors unable to detect it?
Right. Starfleet was the smart one here. Not only do they already have the cloaking technology, their phase-cloak research is also ahead of the competition. Yet all the while maintaining the appareance of not having cloaking technology.
@@echos5823 Here is the problem all the people that were trying to give the federation a opportunity to correct that oversight and others were portrayed as wrong or the villians of those episodes in most of the series by the writers or at the very least tng. And were lectured by picard for violating a treaty the federation had "made in good faith ect" that the romulans and others had likely pissed all over at various times. The only group remotely reasonable in starfleet are section 31, they are not like picard obsessed with maintaining the peace at all costs. Like Sisko said in the dominion holodeck program to the admiral the price for peace is too damn high, picard would have likely given the dominion nearly everything they wanted in exchange for peace. Picard was too much of a diplomat and not enough of a fighter or a maverick like kirk was, maybe it is the tone difference between tng and ds9.
I guess he didn't realize the Navy was (in the 60s) developing nuclear propulsion in submarines that would carry ballistic missiles, eventually making these boomers very effective at sneaking.
Which is utterly stupid when you think about it. Say the good guys need to get into a heavily fortified location occupied by the enemy. Which would be better? Sneaking in or a frontal assault?
@@JLAvey Roddenberry was a WW2 B-17 pilot. I suspect that he had a better understanding of the desire for "stealth technology and being able to sneak into and out of enemy space than most.
@@daveh7720 so you are saying that the best way to approach the stronghold of a people you are at war with is to walk up to the front door and say you come in peace? Tell me. How many civilizations in Star Trek would rather just kill you where you stand rather than talk it out?
The Pegasus never made sense to me. “Let’s develop a cloak against a treaty and test it in near the race we have the treaty with” seriously? Space is big.
@@jedilasombra True, but the Klingon border is right next to the Romulan border, so why test that tech so close to either one? The Federation is 20,000 light years wide, why not go to the other side of Federation space where neither rival power is located?
@@Dargonhuman for the simply fact that if it has bugs you might be able to get technical aid from the enemy as long as you say "sorry I can't uncloak" for fear of cascading neutrinos or something technical 😂
Testing to make sure the cloak actually works is one thing. Testing to see if your enemy can detect your cloak is another. The Pegasus is basically the scifi equivalent of silent running a submarine inside a hostile power's waters, both to get intel on them, and to test how well you can remain undetected by them. If you're caught, it's a diplomatic incident that could lead to war, so don't get caught.
@@s.31.l50 I’m pretty sure the cloak they gave to the defiant was not the latest model.... as we all know starfleet would have analysed every single millimetre of it for secretes
@@jefferynelson For example, despite Ryker and Picard's assertions, the "phasing cloak" pretty clearly used entirely different principles, probably something like "things that are sufficiently out of phase don't produce a sensor return from active scans or detectable emissions for passive ones" or somesuch. Even if the treaty wording forbade it as seen in TNG, the phasing part shouldn't have been covered. Mod the gadget so you can phase out (presumably making you invulnerable to projectiles and any weapons not tuned to affect a phased-out target) at will without also concealing your sensor signature and the treaty wouldn't have applied at all. The fact that Starfleet dropped further study into the tech full-stop after a single tragic incident is another example of the hopelessly unrealistic pacifistic approach they were using in that era. And while it's very easy to disregard everything Ryker's former commander said due to his criminal attempt to evade the treaty restrictions, he was apparently correct in that the crew of the test ship panicked and wrecked the test. The phasing mechanism *did* work, and could have been made safer and treaty-compliant with more research. If it didn't, Starfleet would've needed a new flagship and the Enterprise hull designation series would be one letter farther along, with Picard and company would be dead in a space rock somewhere.
The main drawback of cloaks is that they're ineffective at warp speed. Aside from the large power requirements, a cloak can't mask a ship's subspace field from an enemy's sensors. This is primarily why the Neutral Zone works as an effective deterrent, as it would take too long to traverse it at sub-light speeds.
I don't know, at the end of the day only a handful of starfleet personnel died and one starfleet ship was damaged. While you and I may think what happened would be a cause for altering a treaty or ignoring it the federation has always been pretty soft when it comes to things like this. For them to throw away the treaty I think Shinzon would have at least had to destroy the enterprise and also have some limited success with his plan to attack earth.
@@Bitchslapper316 I think its more the hawks in the fleet and government taking advantage of the chaos that resulted from the incident and the weakness of the Empire. Not sure if it happened in the "Prime" Timeline but we had Reamus becoming a Klingon protectorate, a human offshoot species seizing some outer colonies without reprisal and that nice fleet Commander who offered to buy Riker a drink? Yeah she went mad and declared herself Empress of all of the key agricultural worlds and tried to starve out the rest. Even before Hobus the Romunlans had seriously lost both face and stability.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: my headcanon is that cloaking was banned on the Federation side, while the plasma torpedo (seen in Balance of Terror and never seen again) was banned on the Romulan side. If denying themselves cloaking technology, while allowing the Romulans to keep their cloaking technology, was the price the Federation had to pay in order to deny the Romulans a weapon that could travel at warp speed and smash whole asteroids to bits, it was a price worth paying. EDIT: It's been a few days since I posted this, and it's generated some nice discussion - thanks to all who have contributed. A number of people have zeroed in on my use of the word "torpedo" and cited other post-Balance of Terror instances of the Romulans possessing, or appearing to possess, what are called plasma torpedoes. As I replied to Marine Airwing, in retrospect I should not have used the word torpedo to describe the Bird of Prey's weapons; though Memory Alpha includes it on its "plasma torpedo" page, the word "torpedo" is not spoken at all in the episode "Balance of Terror", let alone in reference to the BoP's weapon. That the BoP's plasma bolt dissipates after a distance suggests the absence of a solid object such as a torpedo casing. My feeling, then, is that the plasma weapon is Balance of Terror is fundamentally a different weapon than any weapon named as a plasma torpedo used by the Romulans after that; and it is that plasma weapon which was banned under the Treaty of Algeron.
That actually make a lot of sense. Nice one. Also in canon the power requirements to maintain a cloaked ship were enormous. Klingons couldn't keep their cloaks up for long, only using them as pounce attacks and the Romulans solved this by having Singularity Cores. Though far more dangerous than Anti-Matter Warp Cores, singularity cores give them a far greater power production potential. The Defiant had a special type of experimental high powered Warp Core developed to fight the Borg and it could maintain power under a Borg energy drain. So it was the only ship that could have a Romulan cloak installed.
Starfleet doesn't cloak because "confusion to the enemy" is preferable to hiding from the enemy. There is no treaty restricting Starfleet from developing Footprint Magnification/Minimization Systems. When the enemy's sensors can't correctly tell the difference between a shuttlecraft and a major ship of the line, or vice-versa, that's _real_ stealth technology.
If your enemy can't find you, that IS confusion. If one takes a formless state, one's opponent cannot strike, surveil, or anticipate (paraphrased from Sun-Tzu).
Ive ready before that The Klingons had a technological exchange with the Romulans. The Klingons gained cloaking tech while the romulans gained upgraded warp tech and the design for D7 class ships.
The Romulans were swapped out for Klingons in Trek 3 which is why both sides wound up with a "Bird of Prey" that cloaks. Erm, cough, yes, technological exchange. We'll roll with that.
@@otomicans6580 . As you should. You are correct that the Romulans were swapped out for Klingons in the real world. Yet it canon, The Klingons and Romulans were briefly Allies. This is when the exchange occurred, and since were discussing fiction, I'm rolling with the 'in universe ' explanation.
Somewhere along the time when Discovery (allegedly) happened, in the canon I'm willing to accept, the Romulans and the Klingons had a technological exchange: Klingons got cloaks to set up proper ambushes to sate their honor and/or bloodlust, and Romulans got the plans for the D7 cruiser so they had some actual beef to build (until they came up with the D'Deridex and other own ships that can stand against enemy ships even without cloak). That's why I don't understand, how in the hell in DIS could an ANCIENT klingon ship have cloaking tech. They nicked it from somewhere? Or just put it in for the views and all that shiny stuff, canon be damned?
One issue with the Dominion war is *why wasn't the treaty of Algernon suspended for the duration of the war?* The Federation could have used Klingon cloaks on loan from the Klingon Empire _to be returned_ at the end of the war… (because StarFleet has no cloaks of their own 😉⬛) and in return the Romulans could have gotten some nice considerations ("sorry about murdering the crew of the Prometheus") or concessions, or it could have just been argued that as co belligerents the anti cloaking measures no longer applied as they were allied. For the Alpha Alliance, the fact that StarFleet couldn't cloak was a major strategic limitation as it meant that any combined fleet could be detected (bad luck for the Romulan ships in a Battlegroup) - and StarFleet was the biggest member and had the fastest ships (on average). And limiting Starfleet in Federation only attack groups also hurt the Romulans as it weakened their allies, which wouldn't bother the Romulans unless it was the difference between a Dominion victory and defeat. The Defiant got a lot of use out of its cloak, it was a game changer a few times. And the Tal Shiar even gave cloaks to the Obsidian Order pre war for a combined preemptive strike on the Founder's "Homeworld".
Near the start of the Dominion War, the Romulans weren't actively opposing the Dominion. They were maintaining a neutral stance, and allowing the Federation to use cloaks unimpeded would have severely hampered Romulan-Dominion relations. After the death of Senator Vreenak and the declaration of hostilities, the Romulans looked to the long-term future of the war. They were expecting it to take many years, and be interspersed with periods of peace. As such, they didn't want to give the Federation full access to cloaking technology because firstly it would force the Dominion to focus more on anti-cloaking technology (as opposed to anti-starfleet measures), and secondly it would give the Federation a chance to study the cloak themselves - once the war was over, the Romulans wanted to be able to return to the status quo where they could freely use cloaked vessels against Starfleet.
@@3Rayfire But only at _close range,_ and StarFleet could detect cloaks as well due to leaks (that's another reason the Scimitar was revolutionary… it had a "perfect" cloak). The other issue with Antiproton beams is the Dominion had to be actively looking for a cloaked vessel - it was basically *a searchlight.* A cloaked fleet could still move around freely _without being detected_ at long range… which was very useful strategically, as the enemy couldn't see what you were up to. It's just tactically… where a cloaked ship decloaks and fires on you that Antiproton beams prevented (and only if you suspected such an attack). It's how the Klingon fleet got the drop on the combined Dominion fleet at the battle to get to DS9 (to save the minefield). The Dominion was too busy having a knife fight with Starfleet and the Romulans to actively scan for a incoming cloaked fleet flanking them.
The Defiant got away with the cloak, because the Treaty Of Algeron only applied to the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. Gamma was exempted. Even in DS9, Defiant was seen decloaking before passing through the Wormhole on the Gamma side heading back to DS9. On the Romulan side, their ships cannot cloak inside Federation territory, because it is an act of war. Which is why in Picard the Tal Shiar fleet did no cloak before leaving during the standoff with Starfleet. Do not forget, the Khitomer Accords banned the type of development the Spartan II programme in Halo created, as a balance.
So...I always wondered whatever happened to the Klingon Bird of Prey that Kirk and Crew used to get back to Earth at the end of Star Trek 4: The Voyage Home? As far as we know its sunk underwater next to Starfleet Headquarters off the coast of San Francisco...did they ever recover the ship and study it?
All the more reason to keep a very close eye on them, Keep you friends close but keep your enemy's closer. Section 31 is the enemy within, one you keep a very close eye on regardless of the situation
@@jodybranson925 they are loyal to the federation by doing dirty deed for them, the federation can appeared as these benevolent interstellar states while Section 31 can do dirty stuff for them in secrecy without anyone knowing about the existence of Section 31
@@AstralArbourSys that's the point of Section 31, if Section 31 were exposed, the federation can cut tied with them at ease without any consequences and denied the existence of Section 31
NCIA-93's were clever in keeping the spirit of the treaty whilst circumventing it with such an unusual method. Lower the ship's power and use holo emitters to make the ship look like a rock floating through space. Bit limited in the application department but a clever way none the less
When an organization decides to not develop a technology, they do not have to invest any large amount of capital to the investment, and therefore, they can direct additional funds to other areas that need funding or invest in other technologies. It's always a calculated risk when you do not decide on going in one direction or another, but in all situations you only have limited time and resources, and you must decide what course of action will bring you the best results.
I really want The Orville to parody that Treaty just to point out how silly it was, to the point where it was broken dozens of times in TNG and DS9. Alien Delegation: We want a buffer zone between us and the Union, also we want the Union to make the development and deployment of shrouding technology illegal. Ed: which means you will ban shroud technology for your empire too? Alien: oh no, we will still be able to have it, but we will concede some territory to the buffer zone. Ed: that's ridiculous, you want us to give you an overwhelming tactical advantage, all while we give up territory, yet you are free to use shroud technology to enter and exit this "buffer zone" and we won't be able to tell if you are keeping your word or not. Do you think we are stupid? Alien Ambassador: Well, YES, you are human after all.
@@loganiushere only for use in the gamma quadrant (after the mining that wasn't possible). Speaking of mines those had cloaks too. It was mentioned when they went to save the Datapa Council from the Klingons just to hand wave it off (or was it when Sisko went to hunt down Ellingswoorth) doesn't matter). It is silly, always was. Doesn't ruin Star Trek any more than an exhaust port ruined Star Wars. Chill
@@Marinealver I doubt you’ll like this answer but... Because it’s a fictional show and fiction doesn’t always have to make sense (actually the same could be said about reality too at times). Gene Roddenberry said Starfleet doesn’t sneak around using cloaks, and it seems most writers stuck to that idea. DS9 broke a lot of ‘rules’ of Roddenberry so maybe full on use of cloaking devices was just one step too far at the time. Plus, it could take away the drama and complications from traditional story telling if all the spaceships in a visual TV show are invisible and/or there’s a ‘get out of jail free card’ whenever conflict arises. If you’re looking for an in-universe explanation that makes sense to you, your imagination is the limit 😊
While cloaking does offer powerful militaristic advantages, I honestly feel like the treaty for continued peace with the Romulans far outweighing starfleet using them. Especially when they had basically invented them anyway but chose not to use them. There is something to be said about being unstealthy to ensure that people or 'things' know you are there so anything that might be afraid of you would stay clear even if the things that aren't afraid will know exactly where you are. Outside of monstrous creatures, or violent civilisations starfleet has little to worry about attracting attention and would actively prefer that they be sought out in the accidental case of trespassing. A warbird is scary because it can pop up at any time, but a starfleet vessel is scary because you will be able to see it approach and will know ahead of time what fate awaits you.
The Romulan woman just vanished, was never heard from again, LOL! I wonder if that had any connection to her entering Garak’s shop. When she didn’t show up for work, Sisko shrugged and said, “Damn, oh well, can’t wait around for her.”
Garek: Here are recordings of her leaving my shop, a list of whitnesses who saw her leave.... And some very interesting documents I got from your personal logs I will be happy to destroy if you stop intruding on my place of business.
I know you can’t read all (or even most) of your comments. But I wanted to say I really enjoy your videos. I’m a casual ST Fan, haven’t watched regularly since DS9. Thank you for making them.
The ban on Starfleet and the Federation using cloaking technology while letting the Klingons and Rommulans use it never made any sense to me, it would be like if WE, the US agreed to let the Russians, the Chinese, and whoever else wanted to, develop submarine technology and not do it ourselves. WHAT THE HELL was the Federation thinking doing such a thing? Why would you let this technological advancement be restricted from you? It's stupid as hell
Makes sense to me. It may be a fictional, hyper-idealistic civilization that will even disadvantage itself to make a point. But because its fictional, it can be like that. It's intended to inspire, not act as a strict model of what can and cannot be done. Did you think people around the world see the USA that way? We certainly don't. The USA is a country that, even if we put aside clear examples of when it is totally impractical to slavishly follow ideals for the sake of real-world need, is still like any other country that first and foremost defends it's own interests even above any of the lofty original ideals in your constitution....and these interests are also written into law, meaning it's in your constitution today. Only Americans think that the USA is really ideologically similar to the fictional Federation, if not for "teh reel world issues". It's really not. If the Federation was an entity that spread its military and economic influence as far as possible into order to safeguard it's own survival and own interests first and foremost, even to the point of use of the bully pulpit tactics. Then sure. I would agree with you. Interestingly, it's just a matter of ideology. The USA has enough industrial might to win wars against any other nation on Earth even without submarines, yes even without that qualitative strategic and tactical asset submarines provide. It is the closest entity in real-life to being able to take the harder road where it operates by example in order to influence other nations. But it doesn't. Think on that, because that's my direct answer to your example. The USA is not going bottom up without it. So what does that mean?
Ok but let's say we do that, let the russians develop and get good at submarine technology in exchange for peace for many centuries. During that time we develop anti ICBM lasers, vast fleets of fighters, and advance our anti sub warfare systems. The fact is that we would get very good at countering the threats from the submarines. The alternative to the Treaty of Algeron was an all out, drawn out, war of attrition. The federation might have won but at what cost? If they were also fighting the Klingons at that time then what was to stop the Klingons from invading with the romulans? It also looks like holographic "cloaks" aren't banned by the treaty. There are many countries that agree not to develop nuclear weapons in exchange for peace treaties and trade agreements. Not developing a tech for the existence of your civilization is a thing.
Given the UFP's penchant for officially avoiding the use of cloaking devices, I find it fascinating that in _Star Trek Online_ , certain ships come equipped with a cloaking module: the T5 Defiant-class seems a halfway reasonable choice, but what about the Legendary Sovereign, or the Khitomer Alliance's first Battlecruiser, the Khitomer-class? I don't have the Temer-class yet, but I assume it has a cloak too. Interestingly the T5 Defiant's and the Khitomer's cloaks are the normal type, however the Legendary Sovereign seems to be equipped with a Romulan-style battle cloak, which can be reactivated in battle.
Khitomer is understandable, it's an alliance and a compromise they are willing to make, I just handwaved my stealth ships as either... ""Borrowed" from the Romulans, return date: when I feel it" "Stolen from someone else and I keep it as a war prize" And my favorite excuse: "got drunk with Q and all I know I woke up smashed on a bridge of this ship"
Star Trek Online's backstory is that the Khitomer Accords have broken down, Romulus is fractured, the Borg are actively rampaging across known space... basically everything's going to hell in a handbasket and StarFleet's so hard-pressed to deal with it all that they're handing over frigates to Ensigns straight out of the Academy just to get more ships online and out there to keep things from getting worse. It's a setting where the StarFleet player character more-or-less gets brevet-promoted all the way up to Fleet Admiral yet still takes orders from lower-ranking Captains and Admirals. It's a setting where a lot of the rules and regulations have fallen by the wayside and a lot of shit that normally wouldn't fly has fallen through the cracks. It's a setting where my Fed engineer can dress herself and her senior staff up in form-fitting latex catsuits and NOTHING ELSE and everyone just looks the other way so long as shit gets fixed.
@@pyrioncelendil I find the Romulan side to be the most interesting out of all the factions. Even the KDF perspective is just kind of there without major differences after the initial arc. Mind, being able to go to Klingon Hell was a very interesting experience. Can't wait to do it in the remastered missions now that they're also available.
You mean the Terran Galaxy legendary, it gets the battle cloak from the console set it comes with which swaps the torpedo module for supplemental systems
Even the Avenger Battlecruiser, can accept a cloak even if it doesn't come with one. Outright stated as part of the Klingon-esque design philosophy of the ship, too. "We didn't put on in. But don't pay attention to the fact that it comes ready-made to integrate one."
I think it would have great tactically, but it would have put every neighbor on edge that the biggest dog in the yard speaks of peace and yet all their ships are unseen
Well, let's see. Romulans: start a war with federation Klingons: start a war with federation Cardassians: start a war with federation Ferengi: constantly trying to steal starships and technology even when the Feds tried to make peace with them Borg: constantly trying to steal starships and technology AND citizens Dominion: start a war with federation Romulans: use cloak Dominion: uses cloak Klingons: use cloak Borg: considering their technological capabilities, probably COULD use cloak if they wanted Yeah, I think the federation has almost every right to start building ships that can cloak after that. clearly the neighbors were already on edge when the federation wanted peace to begin with.
To the casual Star Trek fan, like me, the Federation seems all too ready to sign extremely disadvantageous/ill-advised treaty agreements. Not permitting cloaked vessels and the idiocy that was the treaty with Cardassia years later are two epic examples.
What if: ? What if the NX Enterprise had gone straight back to Earth once they _captured a Suliban Cell ship_ after returning that Klingon, and it had been reverse engineered by Starfleet engineering instead of tinkered with by Trip in his spare time? The NX upgrade for the Xindi war arc may have been a bit more than a minor refit. Hmm… Suliban tech upscaled to a Cruiser, and with the industrial capacity of a stable Homeworld to build it, instead of small mobile rebel groups having to build it clandestinely. Oh and (another What if?) also what if Archer didn't tell the Klingons that Trips baby mama(!) was trailing them in a cloaked ship but instead just suggested they power down while Enterprise revved it's engines. Or at least insist on their own copy of the cloaking tech as compensation.
Power generation is the issue with cloaking devices. The NX Class didn't even have shields, it's unlikely it would have been able to generate the power to extend a cloak around a cruiser.
@@GrandSupremeDaddyo The Suliban Cell ship also had a very advanced compact form of warp core that if reverse engineered would have revolutionised StarFleet. Compare it's abilities to the similar sized impulse only (no long term life support ect) shuttle pods the NX used. It fitted inside the cells ship with still most of the internal space given to the crew. Retrofitted in the NX [a _minor refit?]_ and the entire warp drive would fit in the Saucer Section with ease (no nacelles, no pylons, no external bits at the rear of the Saucer), in much less space than engineering took beforehand. Then it would become a classic flying Saucer! Remember the Suliban could build and maintain these ships (and some rare larger ships) while operating as a cell structure rebel group in small hidden bases, starting from roughly the same tech level - before they got the schematics from the future. They didn't have a orbital shipyard around their Homeworld to use. Earth could have upscaled the tech. As for Trips baby mumma Allen's cloak. Yes they wouldn't be able to run at warp ect with it. But just being able to putter around at impulse with it taking most of the power would be a huge advantage. It also gives them the basis to work on to improve from there, within a few years maybe low warp while cloaked. And all they really needed was the Ferengi ship they should have kept, for the more advanced power systems. As a side note: the Ferengi's databanks would have been a valuable resource on systems and species that not even the Vulcans (or anyone in the future early Federation) knew anything about. As well, keep the Ferengi prisoner for life and let them die of old age legally without any resources. In Ferengi culture if you die bankrupt you go to hell. And send a memo to Ferenginar that that was their fate! Being killed by angry Klingons is one thing, knowing that this new species will let you die destitute in a prison is a far greater deterrent.
@Darth Revan To be blunt? Agreed. This shows the federation's hubris and shortsightedness. It also solves a complaint I had where the genesis device was never used in spite of the fact the genesis planet itself was probably partially unstable due to being made from a nebula and starship debris along with spock's corpse instead of a dead world. That and programming refinements could have solved the matter. Instead the federation probably quietly shelves it after klingon and romulan sabre rattling and dissent amongst member worlds once wind of what genesis actually was got loose. Potential for good, yes, but considering they have gravity plating stations are good and looking at estimates of how many planets are in the galaxy the federation is probably very thinly populating the alpha quadrant compared to potential realrstate.
In a beta-canon series by Venom Geek Media, in the late 23rd century (aka. Lost era), a UFP-RSE cold war happened. Starfleet made the Excelsior II class Starships which can carry about a dozen, give or take Tricobalt warheads under cloaked. This was in response to RSE ships displaying their plasma torpedo yields on asteroids and making incursions into UFP space. This lead to an arms race which came to the breaking point during the Tomed incident. To prevent further conflict, the treaty of algeron was signed, banning UFP cloaks and the partial ban of the weapon several event program by both sides.
In one of the lost era novels, the explanation is that the Federation essentially tricked the Romulans into thinking that they had cloaking technology, but in reality did not and used it as a bartering chip. The Federation had no interest in cloaks, but if the Romulans wanted Starfleet to give up the pursuit of such technology, then they'd have to give something up. In this case, I believe it was territory, though which sector of space it was escapes my memory.
@Darth Revan Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it makes sense, but if that was the advantage the Romulans thought they would keep with that bargain, then I guess it was the best that Starfleet thought they could get away with.
I think the Treaty Of Algeron would be a bad deal if it was insided. Like if there wasn't a restriction for the Romulans. It's been brought to my attention that their concession was not to conquer or invade Federation worlds. I must say you forgot to mention the advanced cloak we see in The Undiscovered Country and the Scimatar in Nemesis. Both of which should have at least been mentioned as they were both instances where ships can fire when they are cloaked. Other than that I found this video very up to date and thorough.
Because the "Big Bad Treaty" is bad. Honestly, as much as I love the Federation, I'm amazed a Dominion War scenario didn't happen sooner when they make choices like this.
Maybe the federation knew they wouldn't be able to defeat the star empire if the war were to continue. So it was either give up cloaking technology or continue fighting a losing battle. Not sure tho, just an idea
I still think the pegasus cloak should be standard on all starfleet ships past a certain point. The negation of space hazards the deflector dish can't handle alone makes it worthwhile.
Pretty sure that after the destruction fo Romulus, the Federation more or less started to ignored the treaty. Given that there was no longer a Star Empire to enforce it. Or even a clear legal Sucessor State that you could negotiate about with regarding the treaty. Severe Damage to the Romulan Empire had already been teased in "All good things", and at least the Enterprise of that time was openly using a cloak. Propably still not standart issue, but a lot less uncommon then the defiant case.
After the collapse of the Star Empire they arent really in a position militarily to threaten the Federation. I'm sure their fleet must have been decimated. Then I'm sure civil war would have raged with the different groups looking to take control of what was left. Full scale war with the Federation was out of the question. I can see the Federation respecting the Neutral Zone out of courtesy and established borders but I doubt the Romulans didnt have a leg to stand on anymore when it came to technology.
I am reminded of an odd Sherlock Holmes movie (The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes) that involved an experimental submarine. Queen Victoria arrives on the scene to observe the new device. When she discovered that the vessel could attack without being visible or “raising the colors” she replied that she was not amused and that pretty much skuttled the project. The same is true for the Federation and cloaking technology. The whole notion is counter to the attitude of the Federation. I can even see a Federation President or two even saying, “We are not amused.” And apparently the Federation had no need of it, since they, for the most part, did not illegally sneak into other territories in what would have otherwise been acts of war if discovered. It is important to note that “Balance of Terror” was originally a story about a submarine.
Well it was interesting how the Enterprise faced the Romulans for the first time in Balance of Terror, where through brinksmanship Kirk wins out against the cloaking prototype. (Aired 12/15/66) Yet in The Enterprise Incident (aired 9/27/68, less than two years later) the Romulans caught them using Klingon designed vessels with cloaks, they acted surprised, and Spock said how Starfleet Intelligence advised about the use of cloaking technology. Maybe they should review their logs.
Back when TNG's "The Defector" first came out on TV, fans started asking why Picard was pining to "overcome this advantage" of apparently Romulan-only cloaking technology. This didn't make sense too them, since Capt. Kirk stole a Romulan device decades earlier. None other than Gene Roddenberry himself responded publicly: "Our people are explorers. They don't sneak around" which supposedly slammed the door on the notion of Federation possession of any cloaking technology of any kind until Rick Berman's creative people resurrected the idea years after Roddenberry's death. On the one hand, the whole idea of clearly
There is a simple counter to cloaks - a full blooded Betazoid. _And what if they could read the shield frequently on other ships._ As well there is that stealth tech on the Mercenary ship in *Gambit* _[two parter with Picard accidentally undercover after being kidnapped, hunting for a ancient Vulcan weapon - which StarFleet should have kept… it would have devastated the Jem'Hadar and the Cardassians when used by calm Humans and disciplined Vulcans]._ The hull coating meant that the ship (which was captured) could not be picked up by long range sensors, so it could only be detected visually - and it didn't limit performance with power demands, so shields and warp drive were unaffected. That would have been strategically incredibly useful as fleets could move without detection until they were in combat range - and it may have hindered weapons locks and scanning the interiors of ships. And it wouldn't lead to accidental collisions and that sort of thing, ships could also just use a transponder when in _full peaceful mode._ There is also beta canon (I think a RPG I once "downloaded") that StarFleet has full replicator schematics for cloaks in the every ships database, hidden in encrypted files, and should the Romulan cold war ever turn hot a fleet wide order could be issued that would unlock the files and allow all StarFleet vessels to upgrade themselves in flight… presumably the files would have been updated for each ship type so that a Galaxy and a Oberth produce different model cloaks (or all types could have been included in the database, and the ship chooses the appropriate one). If so then it would have been useful for Voyager to hack those files, if they knew about them. But then they should have been able to produce a workable cloak just from their technical knowledge anyway …perhaps not state of the Romulan art, but good enough for their neighbourhood.
The Treaty of Algeron prevents Starfleet from creating their own cloaking devices. However, the treaty does not prevent the Federation from getting cloaking devices from the Klingons! Therefore the Federation did not violate the treaty like you described in the video.
Good Morning Ric, I do think it was a high price to pay BUT it saved billions of Federation lives and as you pointed out the Federation did not fall to far behind. Thanks for sharing.
@@Velldog Not sure why he's asking that question it's been stated in many episodes the treaty Starfleet signed in good faith doesn't matter if it was a smart idea they signed it so what else is their to say about that topic.
Considering that in Star Trek: The Undiscovered Country , McCoy and Spock created a homing torpedo that can home on emissions on a cloaked vessel rendering cloaking moot.
The treaty was only beneficial to the Federation, they would have been fools not to agree to it. It did not stop them from studying and countering the cloaking technology, only from using it them selves.
It was only beneficial to the Federation because the Romulans were naturally xenophobic expansionists. "We'll stop using a tech we have no need for if you'll keep to yourselves" established the Federation's willingness to make whatever threat its fleet disposition posed open knowledge to the Romulans in exchange for the Romulans being treaty-bound to take their expansionism elsewhere.
The thing that always confused me was the "in exchange we..." part of the treaty. Sure, the Federation got something out of it, I guess, and their own style didn't really need military stealth technology, but I feel the Romulans weren't really in a position to say "and in return, we won't destroy the Federation", or I feel they just would have. If they said "and we won't meddle in the Federation", that was an obvious lie, and their own cloaks made it easy, when necessary, even with gravitic sensors along the Neutral Zone. I just never really got what concessions the Star Empire made, in accordance, for the agreement, even if the Federation wasn't really offput by it, barring the likes of Admiral Pressman.
It was always more convenient to keep the treaty active and basically "look the other way" with the Romulans returning more-or-less embarrassed and chastised that whatever they were trying to do this time blew up in their faces like it always has. The overarching threat of the Federation deciding a particular incursion is too much to ignore leading to open warfare between the two parties likely was a continual source of concern to the Romulans, especially as the Federation lacking cloaking tech meant that the Romulans could see the Federation's force disposition on their long range sensors pretty much at any given time.
I always thought Starfleet NEEDED to cloak their ships - when they are in (or near) planets who are on the verge of space travel (but not quite there yet). Such planets would obviously have technology which be able to detect objects (with great accuracy) within their solar system (as we are close to doing now). They'd need the cloak in order to make sure the Prime Directive was upheld during research and scientific missions. Just my opinion.
The Romulan officer assigned to the cloaking device on The defiant didn’t disappear she was a Cardasian agent who got recalled to become Cesca on voyager!
I think the treaty was a bad deal, How the federation could make such a conceit is beyond me, The phasing cloak should have been used widely on all starships during the dominion was, as should the ablade of armor from voyager
The Dominion War was over a long time before Voyager brought the ablative armor back to Starfleet, and considering the temporal violations Admiral Janeway committed to give Voyager that tech, it stands to reason that Starfleet would classify that tech and lock it away as soon as possible. I do agree that the phase cloak tech would have certainly helped during the Dominion War, though. The entire segment of the war where Starfleet and the Romulans were sidelined because of that damn Breen weapon could have been skipped if they could have just interphased and let the shots pass through their ships to name just one example. The only reasonable explanation I can think of for not using it is the tech was too unstable and unpredictable for widespread combat use. I imagine that engineers from both Starfleet and Romulus were trying to make the tech work more reliably but were unable to figure it out before the end of the war.
The beta Canon explanation is that the Federation tricked the Romulans into thinking that they were developing cloaking technology, and demanding certain important territories in exchange for the promise not to pursue a technology that the Federation had no interest in.
I think a better question is, how is it that Romulans and Klingons can operate in formations when cloaked, and maneuver in battle when cloaked, without ever flying into one another. In the Dominion war PC game, it was suggested that the Klingons had a communications system that allowed the cloaked ships to communicate and coordinate when cloaked. If so, you would think that this would be a major vulnerability allowing the Federation and others to hack in, and not only detect the cloaked vessels nearby, but to potentially identify, and track them using listening posts.
Let's be real the star empire was an enemy starfleet knew very little about and until the dominion attacked their most powerful enemy because of how little they knew about them, the klingons were allies now and the Borg were stronger but more predictable. Limiting their enemies was better than trying to catch up on cloaking tech and in the long run the federation got the best cloaking tech
sure but the romulans were never not enemies to the federations, even if starfleet upheld the treaty the romulan attitude would be like "okay we won't got to open war RIGHT NOW" note i said open war
@@markfreeman4727 OH yeah I know...but at the same time the treaty was a lesser of two evils and they just stayed in an information war... which is honestly in a way less resource straining than open war. That and the borg was enough of a distraction to buy starfleet time.
@@SuperGamefreak18 information war my arse, the romulans were constantly trying to start fights either directly with the federation or between various parties that would weaken the federation. Even during the dominion war the romulans didn't tire from their tricks, trying to establish an armed outpost near bajorian space
Big thanks for the spoiler warning at the start, really appreciate content creators who think about the viewers like that, gave a thumbs up and added to watch later until I finish off S3.
Or it may have been due to the fact that cloaking especial effects for early Star Trek shows was very hard and cost prohibitive to do, so they made up the treaty to explain why the Enterprise never cloaked on screen.
I agree that the Federation used a treaty to give up cloaking technology. That's obvious. The trouble is in the writing. So many things ignored. Such as in The Search for Spock: Scotty configured the cloak of his warbird scout to cloak the ship with failing power systems; warp power definitely off line, using MINIMAL power. What makes this more interesting. Is that Commander Scott was also the engineer who successfully connected a stolen cloaking device aboard NCC-1701. Also ignored is the TOS episode where the Romulans have clearly exchanged cloaking devices. For an undisclosed number of Kingon D-7 battlecruisers with warp drive technology. In "Balance of Terror," the Romulan ship had only impulse drive; with limited fuel. Finally; the last episode of TNG, is ignored. Riker's Enterprise with 3 nacelless; Warp 13 speed, and a cloaking device. In his time line: The Federation was badly losing a war against the Klingon empire. And so? WHAT!? Enterprise writers, disregarded James Kirk's very genuine surprise at cloaking device technology. Suggesting the Romulans always had some version of it. Well? Writers suck! Lol!
It would have been a wonderfull saver of SFX budget, but it makes for boring stories if everyone just cloaks and nobody can maneuver for fear of running into each other. Also when your cloak is defeated, that means you do not have shields. Most starfleet ships and installations do pretty poorly without shields. Just ask the defiant Crew how well the cloak works: - on first use in the Delta Quadrant it was defeated and the ship taken out quickly. Without Odo, the ship would have been a total loss - then it was not used for a while - then it got stolen by the marquis. Kira sabotaged the cloak - then a bug with the cloak send 3 senior officers back in time! - then the cloak was disabeled by Eddington, when they tried to rescue Odo from the Obisidian Order/Tal Shiar taskforce f-up - it think they may have actually used it back in "Adversary", to not be intercepted by Tzenketi - another use was when rescuing the Detapa council. No further use in the Klingon/Federation war - no use in Starship down - no use in Homefront/paradise lost - they actually used it back in "Trials and Tribblelations", to avoid temporal contamination The only times they ever used it sucessfully was in the Alpha Quadrant - the one place they were not supposed to use it - and even here it was barely a footnote.
It was actually a good idea, the romulans based all their ship designs and technological developments around cloaking technology and their commanders were fixated on cloak based tactical methods. It made the Romulans military more predictable, less adaptive and limited, while their ship sacrificed speed, agility and all round advancements due to the demands of the cloak.
*The whole no cloaking technologies thing is weird and stupid to a whole nother level .* *It's even dumber that romulens where not stripped of thier cloaking technologies .*
Federation didn't need cloaking device since they weren't militaristic. The one time it seemed as a necessity was to get through Dominion space safely to find The Founders. Romulans and Klingons being more warlike used it as advantage in battles and conquest.
The main reason was to prevent the writers from using it as a method of creating impossible situations and then at the last moment having a "Deus Ex Machina" moment and all the heros get away. A little bit like every time Burnham appears.
They could just have it break in situation. Just like how the shields seem to go down after taking a couple hits and nobody though about upgrading them.
Starfleets next little gambit. An ultra low near zero emissions starship with a holofield projector 'disguising' it as empty space. Romulan - "The Treaty of Algeron forbids you from developing cloaking technology! Federation - "And we honored that treaty in good faith. We have not developed any cloaking technogies." Romulan - "So then why does one of our Warbird's describe in detail a Federation ship cloaking?" Federation - "Oh, well that was just a misinterpretation of events on their part. What they saw was a starship engaging its silent mode running while also at the same time testing a modified holofield projector. Apparently if your Warbird couldn't see it or detect it, our stealth technology must be rather advanced. It is rather sad though your Warbird suffered catastrophic hull failure when our test vehicle's quantum torpedoes prematurely detonated on the hull of Warbird. You simply must remind your captains when cloaked, don't place themselves in the line of fire."
fun fact i went to STLV and asked if t'rul was really seska in disguise as there were multiple indicators showing she was and brannon braga said it was a great theory but that the voyager and DS9 writers didnt collaborate much. needless to say i could go into details but im 99% sure t'rul was seska.
I would argue that the transphasic device found on the Pegasus is not an actual cloaking device but more of a time travel device because since two objects cannot be in the same location at the same point in time
The Romulan Cloaking officer on the Defiant disappeared around the same time that the Romulans formally allied with the dominion. I know they never mentioned it in the show but It seemed to me that this was implied. it would have been difficult for them to remove the device and keep their intentions a secret; and entering into an alliance with an active aggressor to the federation would have meant terminating the treaty anyways, so they left it on board. The dominion clearly had the advantage militarily and Romulan leadership did not foresee any situation arising which would cause them to reverse their position again (thanks Garak), so one cloaking device on board a ship that their planted officer likely obtained detailed internal scans of was not perceived to be a threat. ultimately that cloaking device would have been destroyed along with the original Defiant, and I don't recall the replacement ship having such a device (unless they got one from the klingons)
I always thought the Federation's ban on cloaking devices was only one point in the Treaty Of Algeron. Other points may have included--but not limited to--a ban on both sides against weaponizing artificial gravity and transporter systems, and Romulans ceding some territory to the Federation.
The biggest flaw of the Federation in my opinion. Fanatically aiming for peace at the expense of objectivity, realism and some times it's own citizens dignity. The treaty with the Cardassian treaty is a example.
According to "The Enterprise Insodent" and subsiquent shows the Romulan's and the Klingon's formed an alliance. The Romulan's gave the Klingon's Cloak Tech and the Klingon's gave the Romulan's Warp Tech.
Kirk on several occasions, avoided confrontations by unknown ships, because, when they scanned the computers, they found "honorable intentions". Having cloaks might have misrepresented Starfleet's ideals of peace and exploration. However, the tech, should have been advanced for war ships, and possibly kept disconnected on board others, for emergencies.
Could have been handy in several occasions as it would have made things easier. However in the end the greater good was actually keeping to the treaty and not bother other then trying to counter it or finding ways to do it differently. This eventually may end up leading to a completely new technology instead which will proof far more effective then cloaking technology on it's own. Cloaking technology is no more then a fancy camouflage after all. Also with the Romulans ending up joining Starfleet at some point it may end up adding to the end result. Do remember that a battle cloak was already introduced which would allow the ship to stay cloaked while firing it's main weapons systems where a cloak system on it's own couldn't do this. You did need to decloak before engaging combat. (although Kirk encountered a Romulan ship that did manage to shoot while cloaked somehow?) Also personal cloaking systems would be a very usable system and is already introduced in the Star Trek Online storyline for Starfleet as well. Also Starfleet ships with cloak have been added which may add to the validation regarding Starfleet still using it (depending on whether someone wishes to see STO as canon or not)
Terry O'Quinn's Erich Pressman was thinking in strictly TACTICAL terms. The more legitimate UFP objection to not having cloaking technology has to do with Star Fleet operating under a Prime Directive of Non-Interference; risk of cultural contamination when making first contacts in uncloaked state is enormous. The "Voyages" describes several tragedies, not least when James Kirk held command of the "Enterprise I," that RESULTED from such contaminations!
In a narrative sense it’s fair because it seems to be when it comes to the federation ‘anything you can do we can do better’ the majority of the time so I like that they can’t use it
I'd say the deal was worth it overall. Particularly following the alliance with the Klingons. Starfleet really had a knack in areas like advanced sensors which could off set cloaked ships. Cloaked ships can be very dangerous sure, and not to be underestimated. However if found alone or detected in general puts the cloaked ship at a big disadvantage even against small ships. Its reminiscent of the Naval treaties of days past tbh. We don't really know the terms of and the exact circumstances of the treaty so its hard to say if the Federation got a bad deal or not.
The resources to continually develop cloaking tech to keep ahead of the game are likely a lot more than the resources to tweak sensor designs to detect them... Plus not being able to fire while cloaked is a ridiculous design flaw and not being able to use shields is just asking for trouble. Really, it's amazing that no one re-invented fragmentation shells to detect cloaks. Load an explosive device with a ton of metal shards and see what happens to an unshielded ship. Even if the navigational deflectors block the cloud of metal, it should be easy to detect where it is by where the expanding cloud or metal forms a gap.
Developing a cloaking device would just mean perpetuating a sort of arms race with the Romulans (and the Klingons). I'm glad the Federation was willing to break the cycle.
How many billions of people would not have died in the Dominion war if every military ship in the Federation had a phase cloak? An invulnerability shield that's also invisible? It is one of the most ridiculous element of canon that Starfleet didn't make it's own cloaks. It would be criminally negligent.
Starfleet does use cloaking device but they're not used on every ship like Klingon or Romulon. Starfleet uses enhanced sensors to find cloaked ships mostly instead of using cloaking device themselves but only Starfleet has those advance sensors.
I think it was insane mostly because of the phasing cloak. The primary reason for the phasing cloak was to be able to go through solid objects, not to be invisible. That the ToA made this technology banned was a bad thing. It is kind of like how our treaty against nuclear in space has stopped us from going to the stars or getting to mars in a couple of months.
Yes, capes are a very aggresive and brazen fashion statement but cloaks are more useful when disguising senior officer ponch...ya know the Admiral extra 30.
@Darth Revan Yeah, interesting how loyal we are to those treaties when real people are in charge. In reality there's no way we'd ever go along with a peace agreement where the other side can cloak and we can't.
Much of the time on TNG, conflicts were resolved as a result of Picard giving a speech without the need for subterfuge. You can think back to how Picard shuts down Worf's requests to fire phasers a hundred times in the show: they don't want to make every interaction about combat in favor of diplomacy. DS9, on the other hand, had quite a few war stories and the cloak helped justify all the time spent behind enemy lines in the gamma quadrant.
My rationale for the treaty is that the Federation decided that it would work well for the stability of the treaty if the Romulans can see clearly how strong Starfleet was and that they are not to be messed with.
Why didn't the Federation apply the phase cloak in their torpedoes, allowing them to penetrate enemy defenses, and explode from within the enemy vessels? That would have completely changed the dynamic of the Dominion war, and I would think that even the Borg would have been rendered vulnerable to that.
Man, this comment is so underrated. That is quite possibly the best idea I've ever heard for using phase-cloak technology if it's restricted from being used on Federation ships.
@Darth Revan Did those torpedoes phase shift through the hull? In the books, they described the tech differently, where they stated that the shock wave from the explosion was phased to multiple frequencies at once, and thus able to align with shield harmonics, and defeat the shields.
Romulan: "Ambassador, what are these reports about one of your ships operating under cloak?"
Starfleet: "A simple misunderstanding Praetor. It is a phasing device, for passing through matter. Why? Were your sensors unable to detect it?
That's a very diplomatic answer
@@thebigguy13 Also 6-D trolling for a race that likes to pretend they play 5-D chess.
Funny thing is the Romulans would pretty much never admit to their sensors being inferior and unable to sense it :P
Damn, i was gonna reference that episode. 😂 Good shit.
@@Enclave. 'Oh of course we can, hence why I am asking'.
The only thing better than having a cloaking device is having a cloaking device when no one thinks you have a cloaking device.
As long as you can keep it cloaked, you're good.
Right. Starfleet was the smart one here. Not only do they already have the cloaking technology, their phase-cloak research is also ahead of the competition.
Yet all the while maintaining the appareance of not having cloaking technology.
@@echos5823 Here is the problem all the people that were trying to give the federation a opportunity to correct that oversight and others were portrayed as wrong or the villians of those episodes in most of the series by the writers or at the very least tng.
And were lectured by picard for violating a treaty the federation had "made in good faith ect" that the romulans and others had likely pissed all over at various times. The only group remotely reasonable in starfleet are section 31, they are not like picard obsessed with maintaining the peace at all costs.
Like Sisko said in the dominion holodeck program to the admiral the price for peace is too damn high, picard would have likely given the dominion nearly everything they wanted in exchange for peace. Picard was too much of a diplomat and not enough of a fighter or a maverick like kirk was, maybe it is the tone difference between tng and ds9.
A cloaking device for your cloaking device
Well, i can't see that coming.
Gene Roddenberry also said that they didn't use cloaking devices because good guys don't sneak around.
I guess he didn't realize the Navy was (in the 60s) developing nuclear propulsion in submarines that would carry ballistic missiles, eventually making these boomers very effective at sneaking.
Which is utterly stupid when you think about it. Say the good guys need to get into a heavily fortified location occupied by the enemy. Which would be better? Sneaking in or a frontal assault?
@@leviosdraekion6993 Diplomacy and negotiation.
@@JLAvey Roddenberry was a WW2 B-17 pilot. I suspect that he had a better understanding of the desire for "stealth technology and being able to sneak into and out of enemy space than most.
@@daveh7720 so you are saying that the best way to approach the stronghold of a people you are at war with is to walk up to the front door and say you come in peace? Tell me. How many civilizations in Star Trek would rather just kill you where you stand rather than talk it out?
The Pegasus never made sense to me. “Let’s develop a cloak against a treaty and test it in near the race we have the treaty with” seriously? Space is big.
yeah but if anyone could detect the cloak and not immediately start a war, it would be the Romulans as opposed to the Klingons.
@@jedilasombra True, but the Klingon border is right next to the Romulan border, so why test that tech so close to either one? The Federation is 20,000 light years wide, why not go to the other side of Federation space where neither rival power is located?
@@Dargonhuman for the simply fact that if it has bugs you might be able to get technical aid from the enemy as long as you say "sorry I can't uncloak" for fear of cascading neutrinos or something technical 😂
Testing to make sure the cloak actually works is one thing. Testing to see if your enemy can detect your cloak is another. The Pegasus is basically the scifi equivalent of silent running a submarine inside a hostile power's waters, both to get intel on them, and to test how well you can remain undetected by them. If you're caught, it's a diplomatic incident that could lead to war, so don't get caught.
@@pyrioncelendil I just hope that Pressman and Maxwell were brought back into the fold during the Dominion War.
I’d like to see the technical language describing what a “cloak” was defined as in the treaty.
A system of field emitters capable of reducing all detectable emission by more than 99.9%... or something. Just guessing 🤣
@@s.31.l50 I’m pretty sure the cloak they gave to the defiant was not the latest model.... as we all know starfleet would have analysed every single millimetre of it for secretes
good point, the term gives you a lot of wiggle room
@@jefferynelson For example, despite Ryker and Picard's assertions, the "phasing cloak" pretty clearly used entirely different principles, probably something like "things that are sufficiently out of phase don't produce a sensor return from active scans or detectable emissions for passive ones" or somesuch. Even if the treaty wording forbade it as seen in TNG, the phasing part shouldn't have been covered. Mod the gadget so you can phase out (presumably making you invulnerable to projectiles and any weapons not tuned to affect a phased-out target) at will without also concealing your sensor signature and the treaty wouldn't have applied at all. The fact that Starfleet dropped further study into the tech full-stop after a single tragic incident is another example of the hopelessly unrealistic pacifistic approach they were using in that era. And while it's very easy to disregard everything Ryker's former commander said due to his criminal attempt to evade the treaty restrictions, he was apparently correct in that the crew of the test ship panicked and wrecked the test. The phasing mechanism *did* work, and could have been made safer and treaty-compliant with more research. If it didn't, Starfleet would've needed a new flagship and the Enterprise hull designation series would be one letter farther along, with Picard and company would be dead in a space rock somewhere.
Aha, trick question since they wrote that bit in invisible ink
The main drawback of cloaks is that they're ineffective at warp speed. Aside from the large power requirements, a cloak can't mask a ship's subspace field from an enemy's sensors. This is primarily why the Neutral Zone works as an effective deterrent, as it would take too long to traverse it at sub-light speeds.
I think the scimitar fixed that
I go with the novel's theory that Starfleet stopped giving a shit about Algeron after the Shinzon incident and frankly I don't blame them.
I don't know, at the end of the day only a handful of starfleet personnel died and one starfleet ship was damaged.
While you and I may think what happened would be a cause for altering a treaty or ignoring it the federation has always been pretty soft when it comes to things like this. For them to throw away the treaty I think Shinzon would have at least had to destroy the enterprise and also have some limited success with his plan to attack earth.
@@Bitchslapper316 I think its more the hawks in the fleet and government taking advantage of the chaos that resulted from the incident and the weakness of the Empire. Not sure if it happened in the "Prime" Timeline but we had Reamus becoming a Klingon protectorate, a human offshoot species seizing some outer colonies without reprisal and that nice fleet Commander who offered to buy Riker a drink? Yeah she went mad and declared herself Empress of all of the key agricultural worlds and tried to starve out the rest. Even before Hobus the Romunlans had seriously lost both face and stability.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: my headcanon is that cloaking was banned on the Federation side, while the plasma torpedo (seen in Balance of Terror and never seen again) was banned on the Romulan side. If denying themselves cloaking technology, while allowing the Romulans to keep their cloaking technology, was the price the Federation had to pay in order to deny the Romulans a weapon that could travel at warp speed and smash whole asteroids to bits, it was a price worth paying.
EDIT: It's been a few days since I posted this, and it's generated some nice discussion - thanks to all who have contributed. A number of people have zeroed in on my use of the word "torpedo" and cited other post-Balance of Terror instances of the Romulans possessing, or appearing to possess, what are called plasma torpedoes. As I replied to Marine Airwing, in retrospect I should not have used the word torpedo to describe the Bird of Prey's weapons; though Memory Alpha includes it on its "plasma torpedo" page, the word "torpedo" is not spoken at all in the episode "Balance of Terror", let alone in reference to the BoP's weapon. That the BoP's plasma bolt dissipates after a distance suggests the absence of a solid object such as a torpedo casing. My feeling, then, is that the plasma weapon is Balance of Terror is fundamentally a different weapon than any weapon named as a plasma torpedo used by the Romulans after that; and it is that plasma weapon which was banned under the Treaty of Algeron.
That actually make a lot of sense. Nice one.
Also in canon the power requirements to maintain a cloaked ship were enormous. Klingons couldn't keep their cloaks up for long, only using them as pounce attacks and the Romulans solved this by having Singularity Cores. Though far more dangerous than Anti-Matter Warp Cores, singularity cores give them a far greater power production potential. The Defiant had a special type of experimental high powered Warp Core developed to fight the Borg and it could maintain power under a Borg energy drain. So it was the only ship that could have a Romulan cloak installed.
I get so confused by "questions" rising for which the answer was established decades ago.
@@neilprice513 Did your antimatter containment field fail?
Just wondering, because your post looked a little cut short...
I love this idea
I always thought the Balance of Terror plasma torpedo was some kind of primitive subspace weapon.
Starfleet doesn't cloak because "confusion to the enemy" is preferable to hiding from the enemy. There is no treaty restricting Starfleet from developing Footprint Magnification/Minimization Systems. When the enemy's sensors can't correctly tell the difference between a shuttlecraft and a major ship of the line, or vice-versa, that's _real_ stealth technology.
If your enemy can't find you, that IS confusion. If one takes a formless state, one's opponent cannot strike, surveil, or anticipate (paraphrased from Sun-Tzu).
*why not have both?*
*General Chang might have entered the chat* Cry Havoc, and let slip the dogs of war!
Because trek uses FTL sensors, and I assume you are talking about lessening heat emission.
Ive ready before that The Klingons had a technological exchange with the Romulans.
The Klingons gained cloaking tech while the romulans gained upgraded warp tech and the design for D7 class ships.
Klingons stole the tec
Yes.
The Romulans were swapped out for Klingons in Trek 3 which is why both sides wound up with a "Bird of Prey" that cloaks. Erm, cough, yes, technological exchange. We'll roll with that.
@@otomicans6580 .
As you should.
You are correct that the Romulans were swapped out for Klingons in the real world.
Yet it canon, The Klingons and Romulans were briefly Allies. This is when the exchange occurred, and since were discussing fiction, I'm rolling with the 'in universe ' explanation.
Somewhere along the time when Discovery (allegedly) happened, in the canon I'm willing to accept, the Romulans and the Klingons had a technological exchange: Klingons got cloaks to set up proper ambushes to sate their honor and/or bloodlust, and Romulans got the plans for the D7 cruiser so they had some actual beef to build (until they came up with the D'Deridex and other own ships that can stand against enemy ships even without cloak).
That's why I don't understand, how in the hell in DIS could an ANCIENT klingon ship have cloaking tech. They nicked it from somewhere? Or just put it in for the views and all that shiny stuff, canon be damned?
One issue with the Dominion war is *why wasn't the treaty of Algernon suspended for the duration of the war?*
The Federation could have used Klingon cloaks on loan from the Klingon Empire _to be returned_ at the end of the war… (because StarFleet has no cloaks of their own 😉⬛) and in return the Romulans could have gotten some nice considerations ("sorry about murdering the crew of the Prometheus") or concessions, or it could have just been argued that as co belligerents the anti cloaking measures no longer applied as they were allied.
For the Alpha Alliance, the fact that StarFleet couldn't cloak was a major strategic limitation as it meant that any combined fleet could be detected (bad luck for the Romulan ships in a Battlegroup) - and StarFleet was the biggest member and had the fastest ships (on average).
And limiting Starfleet in Federation only attack groups also hurt the Romulans as it weakened their allies, which wouldn't bother the Romulans unless it was the difference between a Dominion victory and defeat.
The Defiant got a lot of use out of its cloak, it was a game changer a few times.
And the Tal Shiar even gave cloaks to the Obsidian Order pre war for a combined preemptive strike on the Founder's "Homeworld".
Near the start of the Dominion War, the Romulans weren't actively opposing the Dominion. They were maintaining a neutral stance, and allowing the Federation to use cloaks unimpeded would have severely hampered Romulan-Dominion relations.
After the death of Senator Vreenak and the declaration of hostilities, the Romulans looked to the long-term future of the war. They were expecting it to take many years, and be interspersed with periods of peace. As such, they didn't want to give the Federation full access to cloaking technology because firstly it would force the Dominion to focus more on anti-cloaking technology (as opposed to anti-starfleet measures), and secondly it would give the Federation a chance to study the cloak themselves - once the war was over, the Romulans wanted to be able to return to the status quo where they could freely use cloaked vessels against Starfleet.
It should be noted that by and large the Dominion was able to penetrate Romulan Cloaks as well with an antiproton sweep.
@@3Rayfire But only at _close range,_ and StarFleet could detect cloaks as well due to leaks (that's another reason the Scimitar was revolutionary… it had a "perfect" cloak).
The other issue with Antiproton beams is the Dominion had to be actively looking for a cloaked vessel - it was basically *a searchlight.*
A cloaked fleet could still move around freely _without being detected_ at long range… which was very useful strategically, as the enemy couldn't see what you were up to.
It's just tactically… where a cloaked ship decloaks and fires on you that Antiproton beams prevented (and only if you suspected such an attack).
It's how the Klingon fleet got the drop on the combined Dominion fleet at the battle to get to DS9 (to save the minefield).
The Dominion was too busy having a knife fight with Starfleet and the Romulans to actively scan for a incoming cloaked fleet flanking them.
The Defiant got away with the cloak, because the Treaty Of Algeron only applied to the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. Gamma was exempted. Even in DS9, Defiant was seen decloaking before passing through the Wormhole on the Gamma side heading back to DS9.
On the Romulan side, their ships cannot cloak inside Federation territory, because it is an act of war. Which is why in Picard the Tal Shiar fleet did no cloak before leaving during the standoff with Starfleet.
Do not forget, the Khitomer Accords banned the type of development the Spartan II programme in Halo created, as a balance.
So...I always wondered whatever happened to the Klingon Bird of Prey that Kirk and Crew used to get back to Earth at the end of Star Trek 4: The Voyage Home? As far as we know its sunk underwater next to Starfleet Headquarters off the coast of San Francisco...did they ever recover the ship and study it?
Good question 🤔
Officially no, section 31 "hold my beer"
In all likelihood, they left it right where it lay, and studied it. No treaty says we can't use SCUBA technology.
@@TheDetailsMatter They could use an old American ruse: "we're mining manganese nodules on the seafloor".
I bet at least the Section 31 did it.
If they not already know all secret about the Bird-of-prey. It's was a very old one.
Treaty of Algeron exist:
Starfleet security(section 31):
I'm Gonna Pretend I Didn't See That
All the more reason to keep a very close eye on them,
Keep you friends close but keep your enemy's closer. Section 31 is the enemy within, one you keep a very close eye on regardless of the situation
@@jodybranson925 they are loyal to the federation by doing dirty deed for them, the federation can appeared as these benevolent interstellar states while Section 31 can do dirty stuff for them in secrecy without anyone knowing about the existence of Section 31
The rest of Starfleet when Section 31 commits genocide: I'm gonna pretend I didn't see that
@@AstralArbourSys that's the point of Section 31, if Section 31 were exposed, the federation can cut tied with them at ease without any consequences and denied the existence of Section 31
Or Fedreation: Fine!!!!....... we make Romulans part of the Federation!!! Resistance is futile!!! XD
NCIA-93's were clever in keeping the spirit of the treaty whilst circumventing it with such an unusual method. Lower the ship's power and use holo emitters to make the ship look like a rock floating through space. Bit limited in the application department but a clever way none the less
When an organization decides to not develop a technology, they do not have to invest any large amount of capital to the investment, and therefore, they can direct additional funds to other areas that need funding or invest in other technologies. It's always a calculated risk when you do not decide on going in one direction or another, but in all situations you only have limited time and resources, and you must decide what course of action will bring you the best results.
Got to bring back the phase shifting cloak
I really want The Orville to parody that Treaty just to point out how silly it was, to the point where it was broken dozens of times in TNG and DS9.
Alien Delegation: We want a buffer zone between us and the Union, also we want the Union to make the development and deployment of shrouding technology illegal.
Ed: which means you will ban shroud technology for your empire too?
Alien: oh no, we will still be able to have it, but we will concede some territory to the buffer zone.
Ed: that's ridiculous, you want us to give you an overwhelming tactical advantage, all while we give up territory, yet you are free to use shroud technology to enter and exit this "buffer zone" and we won't be able to tell if you are keeping your word or not. Do you think we are stupid?
Alien Ambassador: Well, YES, you are human after all.
Where was it broken in DS9?
(the Defiant's cloak was a loan from the Romulans.)
@@loganiushere only for use in the gamma quadrant (after the mining that wasn't possible). Speaking of mines those had cloaks too.
It was mentioned when they went to save the Datapa Council from the Klingons just to hand wave it off (or was it when Sisko went to hunt down Ellingswoorth) doesn't matter).
It is silly, always was. Doesn't ruin Star Trek any more than an exhaust port ruined Star Wars. Chill
@@Marinealver Fair enough.
@@Marinealver I doubt you’ll like this answer but...
Because it’s a fictional show and fiction doesn’t always have to make sense (actually the same could be said about reality too at times). Gene Roddenberry said Starfleet doesn’t sneak around using cloaks, and it seems most writers stuck to that idea. DS9 broke a lot of ‘rules’ of Roddenberry so maybe full on use of cloaking devices was just one step too far at the time. Plus, it could take away the drama and complications from traditional story telling if all the spaceships in a visual TV show are invisible and/or there’s a ‘get out of jail free card’ whenever conflict arises.
If you’re looking for an in-universe explanation that makes sense to you, your imagination is the limit 😊
While cloaking does offer powerful militaristic advantages, I honestly feel like the treaty for continued peace with the Romulans far outweighing starfleet using them. Especially when they had basically invented them anyway but chose not to use them.
There is something to be said about being unstealthy to ensure that people or 'things' know you are there so anything that might be afraid of you would stay clear even if the things that aren't afraid will know exactly where you are. Outside of monstrous creatures, or violent civilisations starfleet has little to worry about attracting attention and would actively prefer that they be sought out in the accidental case of trespassing.
A warbird is scary because it can pop up at any time, but a starfleet vessel is scary because you will be able to see it approach and will know ahead of time what fate awaits you.
the romulans aren't intrested in peace, their just stalling until they can figure out how to conquer the rest of the galaxy
The Romulan woman just vanished, was never heard from again, LOL! I wonder if that had any connection to her entering Garak’s shop. When she didn’t show up for work, Sisko shrugged and said, “Damn, oh well, can’t wait around for her.”
Garek: Here are recordings of her leaving my shop, a list of whitnesses who saw her leave.... And some very interesting documents I got from your personal logs I will be happy to destroy if you stop intruding on my place of business.
@@singletona082 - seems legit. 😉
I know you can’t read all (or even most) of your comments. But I wanted to say I really enjoy your videos. I’m a casual ST Fan, haven’t watched regularly since DS9. Thank you for making them.
I think the treaty say that starfleet can't have any cloaking starships, but they can still have cloaking things like mines.
They were being practical and ignored the foolish restrictions at the time, to stop a real threat.
They were not federation mines.... they were the brain child of Rom. So technically they were Ferengi mines deployed by starfleet
@@ozzycommander As a great man once said "rules lawyering for the win."
The ban on Starfleet and the Federation using cloaking technology while letting the Klingons and Rommulans use it never made any sense to me, it would be like if WE, the US agreed to let the Russians, the Chinese, and whoever else wanted to, develop submarine technology and not do it ourselves.
WHAT THE HELL was the Federation thinking doing such a thing?
Why would you let this technological advancement be restricted from you?
It's stupid as hell
Bof... It's not like hundred of thing Can actually flawn ship signature...HEH.
(Cloak, natural objet like nebula......)
Makes sense to me. It may be a fictional, hyper-idealistic civilization that will even disadvantage itself to make a point. But because its fictional, it can be like that. It's intended to inspire, not act as a strict model of what can and cannot be done. Did you think people around the world see the USA that way? We certainly don't. The USA is a country that, even if we put aside clear examples of when it is totally impractical to slavishly follow ideals for the sake of real-world need, is still like any other country that first and foremost defends it's own interests even above any of the lofty original ideals in your constitution....and these interests are also written into law, meaning it's in your constitution today. Only Americans think that the USA is really ideologically similar to the fictional Federation, if not for "teh reel world issues". It's really not.
If the Federation was an entity that spread its military and economic influence as far as possible into order to safeguard it's own survival and own interests first and foremost, even to the point of use of the bully pulpit tactics. Then sure. I would agree with you.
Interestingly, it's just a matter of ideology. The USA has enough industrial might to win wars against any other nation on Earth even without submarines, yes even without that qualitative strategic and tactical asset submarines provide. It is the closest entity in real-life to being able to take the harder road where it operates by example in order to influence other nations. But it doesn't. Think on that, because that's my direct answer to your example. The USA is not going bottom up without it. So what does that mean?
Appeasement diplomacy does not work.
Ok but let's say we do that, let the russians develop and get good at submarine technology in exchange for peace for many centuries. During that time we develop anti ICBM lasers, vast fleets of fighters, and advance our anti sub warfare systems.
The fact is that we would get very good at countering the threats from the submarines.
The alternative to the Treaty of Algeron was an all out, drawn out, war of attrition. The federation might have won but at what cost? If they were also fighting the Klingons at that time then what was to stop the Klingons from invading with the romulans? It also looks like holographic "cloaks" aren't banned by the treaty.
There are many countries that agree not to develop nuclear weapons in exchange for peace treaties and trade agreements. Not developing a tech for the existence of your civilization is a thing.
The treaty of Algeron was still in force as of the Picard show, even quoted by Riker to save the synthoid planet.
Given the UFP's penchant for officially avoiding the use of cloaking devices, I find it fascinating that in _Star Trek Online_ , certain ships come equipped with a cloaking module: the T5 Defiant-class seems a halfway reasonable choice, but what about the Legendary Sovereign, or the Khitomer Alliance's first Battlecruiser, the Khitomer-class? I don't have the Temer-class yet, but I assume it has a cloak too. Interestingly the T5 Defiant's and the Khitomer's cloaks are the normal type, however the Legendary Sovereign seems to be equipped with a Romulan-style battle cloak, which can be reactivated in battle.
Khitomer is understandable, it's an alliance and a compromise they are willing to make, I just handwaved my stealth ships as either...
""Borrowed" from the Romulans, return date: when I feel it"
"Stolen from someone else and I keep it as a war prize"
And my favorite excuse: "got drunk with Q and all I know I woke up smashed on a bridge of this ship"
Star Trek Online's backstory is that the Khitomer Accords have broken down, Romulus is fractured, the Borg are actively rampaging across known space... basically everything's going to hell in a handbasket and StarFleet's so hard-pressed to deal with it all that they're handing over frigates to Ensigns straight out of the Academy just to get more ships online and out there to keep things from getting worse. It's a setting where the StarFleet player character more-or-less gets brevet-promoted all the way up to Fleet Admiral yet still takes orders from lower-ranking Captains and Admirals. It's a setting where a lot of the rules and regulations have fallen by the wayside and a lot of shit that normally wouldn't fly has fallen through the cracks. It's a setting where my Fed engineer can dress herself and her senior staff up in form-fitting latex catsuits and NOTHING ELSE and everyone just looks the other way so long as shit gets fixed.
@@pyrioncelendil I find the Romulan side to be the most interesting out of all the factions. Even the KDF perspective is just kind of there without major differences after the initial arc. Mind, being able to go to Klingon Hell was a very interesting experience. Can't wait to do it in the remastered missions now that they're also available.
You mean the Terran Galaxy legendary, it gets the battle cloak from the console set it comes with which swaps the torpedo module for supplemental systems
Even the Avenger Battlecruiser, can accept a cloak even if it doesn't come with one. Outright stated as part of the Klingon-esque design philosophy of the ship, too. "We didn't put on in. But don't pay attention to the fact that it comes ready-made to integrate one."
Your ability to make Star Trek Discovery actually sound like it fits is astounding.
I think it would have great tactically, but it would have put every neighbor on edge that the biggest dog in the yard speaks of peace and yet all their ships are unseen
Exactly. Can't just ignore relations with everyone else.
Well, let's see.
Romulans: start a war with federation
Klingons: start a war with federation
Cardassians: start a war with federation
Ferengi: constantly trying to steal starships and technology even when the Feds tried to make peace with them
Borg: constantly trying to steal starships and technology AND citizens
Dominion: start a war with federation
Romulans: use cloak
Dominion: uses cloak
Klingons: use cloak
Borg: considering their technological capabilities, probably COULD use cloak if they wanted
Yeah, I think the federation has almost every right to start building ships that can cloak after that. clearly the neighbors were already on edge when the federation wanted peace to begin with.
@@hobomike6935 excellent points
I think I would have preferred it to be a Washington naval treaty like limitation on tonnage range and firepower over an outright ban.
To the casual Star Trek fan, like me, the Federation seems all too ready to sign extremely disadvantageous/ill-advised treaty agreements. Not permitting cloaked vessels and the idiocy that was the treaty with Cardassia years later are two epic examples.
What if: ?
What if the NX Enterprise had gone straight back to Earth once they _captured a Suliban Cell ship_ after returning that Klingon, and it had been reverse engineered by Starfleet engineering instead of tinkered with by Trip in his spare time?
The NX upgrade for the Xindi war arc may have been a bit more than a minor refit.
Hmm… Suliban tech upscaled to a Cruiser, and with the industrial capacity of a stable Homeworld to build it, instead of small mobile rebel groups having to build it clandestinely.
Oh and (another What if?) also what if Archer didn't tell the Klingons that Trips baby mama(!) was trailing them in a cloaked ship but instead just suggested they power down while Enterprise revved it's engines.
Or at least insist on their own copy of the cloaking tech as compensation.
Power generation is the issue with cloaking devices. The NX Class didn't even have shields, it's unlikely it would have been able to generate the power to extend a cloak around a cruiser.
@@GrandSupremeDaddyo The Suliban Cell ship also had a very advanced compact form of warp core that if reverse engineered would have revolutionised StarFleet.
Compare it's abilities to the similar sized impulse only (no long term life support ect) shuttle pods the NX used.
It fitted inside the cells ship with still most of the internal space given to the crew. Retrofitted in the NX [a _minor refit?]_ and the entire warp drive would fit in the Saucer Section with ease (no nacelles, no pylons, no external bits at the rear of the Saucer), in much less space than engineering took beforehand. Then it would become a classic flying Saucer!
Remember the Suliban could build and maintain these ships (and some rare larger ships) while operating as a cell structure rebel group in small hidden bases, starting from roughly the same tech level - before they got the schematics from the future. They didn't have a orbital shipyard around their Homeworld to use.
Earth could have upscaled the tech.
As for Trips baby mumma Allen's cloak. Yes they wouldn't be able to run at warp ect with it. But just being able to putter around at impulse with it taking most of the power would be a huge advantage.
It also gives them the basis to work on to improve from there, within a few years maybe low warp while cloaked.
And all they really needed was the Ferengi ship they should have kept, for the more advanced power systems.
As a side note: the Ferengi's databanks would have been a valuable resource on systems and species that not even the Vulcans (or anyone in the future early Federation) knew anything about.
As well, keep the Ferengi prisoner for life and let them die of old age legally without any resources. In Ferengi culture if you die bankrupt you go to hell.
And send a memo to Ferenginar that that was their fate!
Being killed by angry Klingons is one thing, knowing that this new species will let you die destitute in a prison is a far greater deterrent.
I wish they would have done more with that Pegasus episode. I do think Picard should not have informed the Romulan ship that they had one
I always thought the treaty was because Romulans learned of genesis and could you imagine a cloaked ship launching a genesis device?
@Darth Revan To be blunt? Agreed. This shows the federation's hubris and shortsightedness. It also solves a complaint I had where the genesis device was never used in spite of the fact the genesis planet itself was probably partially unstable due to being made from a nebula and starship debris along with spock's corpse instead of a dead world. That and programming refinements could have solved the matter.
Instead the federation probably quietly shelves it after klingon and romulan sabre rattling and dissent amongst member worlds once wind of what genesis actually was got loose.
Potential for good, yes, but considering they have gravity plating stations are good and looking at estimates of how many planets are in the galaxy the federation is probably very thinly populating the alpha quadrant compared to potential realrstate.
In a beta-canon series by Venom Geek Media, in the late 23rd century (aka. Lost era), a UFP-RSE cold war happened. Starfleet made the Excelsior II class Starships which can carry about a dozen, give or take Tricobalt warheads under cloaked. This was in response to RSE ships displaying their plasma torpedo yields on asteroids and making incursions into UFP space. This lead to an arms race which came to the breaking point during the Tomed incident. To prevent further conflict, the treaty of algeron was signed, banning UFP cloaks and the partial ban of the weapon several event program by both sides.
In one of the lost era novels, the explanation is that the Federation essentially tricked the Romulans into thinking that they had cloaking technology, but in reality did not and used it as a bartering chip. The Federation had no interest in cloaks, but if the Romulans wanted Starfleet to give up the pursuit of such technology, then they'd have to give something up. In this case, I believe it was territory, though which sector of space it was escapes my memory.
@Darth Revan Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it makes sense, but if that was the advantage the Romulans thought they would keep with that bargain, then I guess it was the best that Starfleet thought they could get away with.
I heard the neutral zone got 3 times larger on the Romulan side for giving up cloaking technology.
I think the Treaty Of Algeron would be a bad deal if it was insided. Like if there wasn't a restriction for the Romulans. It's been brought to my attention that their concession was not to conquer or invade Federation worlds.
I must say you forgot to mention the advanced cloak we see in The Undiscovered Country and the Scimatar in Nemesis. Both of which should have at least been mentioned as they were both instances where ships can fire when they are cloaked. Other than that I found this video very up to date and thorough.
Because the "Big Bad Treaty" is bad. Honestly, as much as I love the Federation, I'm amazed a Dominion War scenario didn't happen sooner when they make choices like this.
Maybe the federation knew they wouldn't be able to defeat the star empire if the war were to continue. So it was either give up cloaking technology or continue fighting a losing battle. Not sure tho, just an idea
@@jacksuper22 Fair point.
I still think the pegasus cloak should be standard on all starfleet ships past a certain point. The negation of space hazards the deflector dish can't handle alone makes it worthwhile.
Pretty sure that after the destruction fo Romulus, the Federation more or less started to ignored the treaty. Given that there was no longer a Star Empire to enforce it. Or even a clear legal Sucessor State that you could negotiate about with regarding the treaty.
Severe Damage to the Romulan Empire had already been teased in "All good things", and at least the Enterprise of that time was openly using a cloak. Propably still not standart issue, but a lot less uncommon then the defiant case.
After the collapse of the Star Empire they arent really in a position militarily to threaten the Federation. I'm sure their fleet must have been decimated. Then I'm sure civil war would have raged with the different groups looking to take control of what was left. Full scale war with the Federation was out of the question. I can see the Federation respecting the Neutral Zone out of courtesy and established borders but I doubt the Romulans didnt have a leg to stand on anymore when it came to technology.
Same applies to the altered future seen by Picard in “all good things...”
The refit enterprise d had a cloak after all...
@@trayolphia5756 I already said that in my post. Did you miss it?
@@christopherg2347 must have, sorry 🖖🏻
@@trayolphia5756 NP. RUclips sometimes forgets to show the "there is more/expand" points.
I am reminded of an odd Sherlock Holmes movie (The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes) that involved an experimental submarine. Queen Victoria arrives on the scene to observe the new device. When she discovered that the vessel could attack without being visible or “raising the colors” she replied that she was not amused and that pretty much skuttled the project.
The same is true for the Federation and cloaking technology. The whole notion is counter to the attitude of the Federation. I can even see a Federation President or two even saying, “We are not amused.”
And apparently the Federation had no need of it, since they, for the most part, did not illegally sneak into other territories in what would have otherwise been acts of war if discovered. It is important to note that “Balance of Terror” was originally a story about a submarine.
Well it was interesting how the Enterprise faced the Romulans for the first time in Balance of Terror, where through brinksmanship Kirk wins out against the cloaking prototype. (Aired 12/15/66) Yet in The Enterprise Incident (aired 9/27/68, less than two years later) the Romulans caught them using Klingon designed vessels with cloaks, they acted surprised, and Spock said how Starfleet Intelligence advised about the use of cloaking technology. Maybe they should review their logs.
The real reason is drama would be hard to keep them in danger.
Back when TNG's "The Defector" first came out on TV, fans started asking why Picard was pining to "overcome this advantage" of apparently Romulan-only cloaking technology. This didn't make sense too them, since Capt. Kirk stole a Romulan device decades earlier. None other than Gene Roddenberry himself responded publicly: "Our people are explorers. They don't sneak around" which supposedly slammed the door on the notion of Federation possession of any cloaking technology of any kind until Rick Berman's creative people resurrected the idea years after Roddenberry's death.
On the one hand, the whole idea of clearly
There is a simple counter to cloaks - a full blooded Betazoid. _And what if they could read the shield frequently on other ships._
As well there is that stealth tech on the Mercenary ship in *Gambit* _[two parter with Picard accidentally undercover after being kidnapped, hunting for a ancient Vulcan weapon - which StarFleet should have kept… it would have devastated the Jem'Hadar and the Cardassians when used by calm Humans and disciplined Vulcans]._ The hull coating meant that the ship (which was captured) could not be picked up by long range sensors, so it could only be detected visually - and it didn't limit performance with power demands, so shields and warp drive were unaffected.
That would have been strategically incredibly useful as fleets could move without detection until they were in combat range - and it may have hindered weapons locks and scanning the interiors of ships. And it wouldn't lead to accidental collisions and that sort of thing, ships could also just use a transponder when in _full peaceful mode._
There is also beta canon (I think a RPG I once "downloaded") that StarFleet has full replicator schematics for cloaks in the every ships database, hidden in encrypted files, and should the Romulan cold war ever turn hot a fleet wide order could be issued that would unlock the files and allow all StarFleet vessels to upgrade themselves in flight… presumably the files would have been updated for each ship type so that a Galaxy and a Oberth produce different model cloaks (or all types could have been included in the database, and the ship chooses the appropriate one).
If so then it would have been useful for Voyager to hack those files, if they knew about them.
But then they should have been able to produce a workable cloak just from their technical knowledge anyway …perhaps not state of the Romulan art, but good enough for their neighbourhood.
The Treaty of Algeron prevents Starfleet from creating their own cloaking devices. However, the treaty does not prevent the Federation from getting cloaking devices from the Klingons! Therefore the Federation did not violate the treaty like you described in the video.
Good Morning Ric, I do think it was a high price to pay BUT it saved billions of Federation lives and as you pointed out the Federation did not fall to far behind. Thanks for sharing.
The Treaty of Algeron.
Didn't even watch the first 6 seconds before your comment?👀
@@Velldog Not sure why he's asking that question it's been stated in many episodes the treaty Starfleet signed in good faith doesn't matter if it was a smart idea they signed it so what else is their to say about that topic.
@@kal0247 Did you watch the video?
@@Velldog 3 mins of it then I had to get back to work.
Considering that in Star Trek: The Undiscovered Country , McCoy and Spock created a homing torpedo that can home on emissions on a cloaked vessel rendering cloaking moot.
That weakness was fixed after that and emissions were masked by the cloak too
The treaty was only beneficial to the Federation,
they would have been fools not to agree to it.
It did not stop them from studying and countering the cloaking technology,
only from using it them selves.
That at very best makes it neither good or bad.
It was only beneficial to the Federation because the Romulans were naturally xenophobic expansionists. "We'll stop using a tech we have no need for if you'll keep to yourselves" established the Federation's willingness to make whatever threat its fleet disposition posed open knowledge to the Romulans in exchange for the Romulans being treaty-bound to take their expansionism elsewhere.
The thing that always confused me was the "in exchange we..." part of the treaty. Sure, the Federation got something out of it, I guess, and their own style didn't really need military stealth technology, but I feel the Romulans weren't really in a position to say "and in return, we won't destroy the Federation", or I feel they just would have. If they said "and we won't meddle in the Federation", that was an obvious lie, and their own cloaks made it easy, when necessary, even with gravitic sensors along the Neutral Zone. I just never really got what concessions the Star Empire made, in accordance, for the agreement, even if the Federation wasn't really offput by it, barring the likes of Admiral Pressman.
In my mind, the Romulan’s broken the treaty on numerous occasions the Federation should’ve insisted.
It was always more convenient to keep the treaty active and basically "look the other way" with the Romulans returning more-or-less embarrassed and chastised that whatever they were trying to do this time blew up in their faces like it always has. The overarching threat of the Federation deciding a particular incursion is too much to ignore leading to open warfare between the two parties likely was a continual source of concern to the Romulans, especially as the Federation lacking cloaking tech meant that the Romulans could see the Federation's force disposition on their long range sensors pretty much at any given time.
@@pyrioncelendil I can see both sides avoiding an open war and instead trying to downplay any accidents. It happened the same way in the real world.
I always thought Starfleet NEEDED to cloak their ships - when they are in (or near) planets who are on the verge of space travel (but not quite there yet). Such planets would obviously have technology which be able to detect objects (with great accuracy) within their solar system (as we are close to doing now). They'd need the cloak in order to make sure the Prime Directive was upheld during research and scientific missions. Just my opinion.
The Romulan officer assigned to the cloaking device on The defiant didn’t disappear she was a Cardasian agent who got recalled to become Cesca on voyager!
I think the treaty was a bad deal, How the federation could make such a conceit is beyond me, The phasing cloak should have been used widely on all starships during the dominion was, as should the ablade of armor from voyager
The Dominion War was over a long time before Voyager brought the ablative armor back to Starfleet, and considering the temporal violations Admiral Janeway committed to give Voyager that tech, it stands to reason that Starfleet would classify that tech and lock it away as soon as possible.
I do agree that the phase cloak tech would have certainly helped during the Dominion War, though. The entire segment of the war where Starfleet and the Romulans were sidelined because of that damn Breen weapon could have been skipped if they could have just interphased and let the shots pass through their ships to name just one example. The only reasonable explanation I can think of for not using it is the tech was too unstable and unpredictable for widespread combat use. I imagine that engineers from both Starfleet and Romulus were trying to make the tech work more reliably but were unable to figure it out before the end of the war.
The beta Canon explanation is that the Federation tricked the Romulans into thinking that they were developing cloaking technology, and demanding certain important territories in exchange for the promise not to pursue a technology that the Federation had no interest in.
I think a better question is, how is it that Romulans and Klingons can operate in formations when cloaked, and maneuver in battle when cloaked, without ever flying into one another. In the Dominion war PC game, it was suggested that the Klingons had a communications system that allowed the cloaked ships to communicate and coordinate when cloaked. If so, you would think that this would be a major vulnerability allowing the Federation and others to hack in, and not only detect the cloaked vessels nearby, but to potentially identify, and track them using listening posts.
Let's be real the star empire was an enemy starfleet knew very little about and until the dominion attacked their most powerful enemy because of how little they knew about them, the klingons were allies now and the Borg were stronger but more predictable. Limiting their enemies was better than trying to catch up on cloaking tech and in the long run the federation got the best cloaking tech
sure but the romulans were never not enemies to the federations, even if starfleet upheld the treaty the romulan attitude would be like "okay we won't got to open war RIGHT NOW" note i said open war
@@markfreeman4727 OH yeah I know...but at the same time the treaty was a lesser of two evils and they just stayed in an information war... which is honestly in a way less resource straining than open war. That and the borg was enough of a distraction to buy starfleet time.
@@SuperGamefreak18 information war my arse, the romulans were constantly trying to start fights either directly with the federation or between various parties that would weaken the federation. Even during the dominion war the romulans didn't tire from their tricks, trying to establish an armed outpost near bajorian space
Big thanks for the spoiler warning at the start, really appreciate content creators who think about the viewers like that, gave a thumbs up and added to watch later until I finish off S3.
Or it may have been due to the fact that cloaking especial effects for early Star Trek shows was very hard and cost prohibitive to do, so they made up the treaty to explain why the Enterprise never cloaked on screen.
I thought Darth Vader blew up Algeron with his Death Star.
@Darth Revan But, for some reason, only on large ships.
I agree that the Federation used a treaty to give up cloaking technology. That's obvious. The trouble is in the writing. So many things ignored. Such as in The Search for Spock: Scotty configured the cloak of his warbird scout to cloak the ship with failing power systems; warp power definitely off line, using MINIMAL power. What makes this more interesting. Is that Commander Scott was also the engineer who successfully connected a stolen cloaking device aboard NCC-1701. Also ignored is the TOS episode where the Romulans have clearly exchanged cloaking devices. For an undisclosed number of Kingon D-7 battlecruisers with warp drive technology. In "Balance of Terror," the Romulan ship had only impulse drive; with limited fuel. Finally; the last episode of TNG, is ignored. Riker's Enterprise with 3 nacelless; Warp 13 speed, and a cloaking device. In his time line: The Federation was badly losing a war against the Klingon empire. And so? WHAT!? Enterprise writers, disregarded James Kirk's very genuine surprise at cloaking device technology. Suggesting the Romulans always had some version of it. Well? Writers suck! Lol!
I see the whole "We don't sneak around" thing from Gene as one of the dumbest things I've ever heard my in my life.
Like... Wow
It would have been a wonderfull saver of SFX budget, but it makes for boring stories if everyone just cloaks and nobody can maneuver for fear of running into each other. Also when your cloak is defeated, that means you do not have shields. Most starfleet ships and installations do pretty poorly without shields. Just ask the defiant Crew how well the cloak works:
- on first use in the Delta Quadrant it was defeated and the ship taken out quickly. Without Odo, the ship would have been a total loss
- then it was not used for a while
- then it got stolen by the marquis. Kira sabotaged the cloak
- then a bug with the cloak send 3 senior officers back in time!
- then the cloak was disabeled by Eddington, when they tried to rescue Odo from the Obisidian Order/Tal Shiar taskforce f-up
- it think they may have actually used it back in "Adversary", to not be intercepted by Tzenketi
- another use was when rescuing the Detapa council. No further use in the Klingon/Federation war
- no use in Starship down
- no use in Homefront/paradise lost
- they actually used it back in "Trials and Tribblelations", to avoid temporal contamination
The only times they ever used it sucessfully was in the Alpha Quadrant - the one place they were not supposed to use it - and even here it was barely a footnote.
It was actually a good idea, the romulans based all their ship designs and technological developments around cloaking technology and their commanders were fixated on cloak based tactical methods. It made the Romulans military more predictable, less adaptive and limited, while their ship sacrificed speed, agility and all round advancements due to the demands of the cloak.
Thanks,you were able to clear up, a few things
*The whole no cloaking technologies thing is weird and stupid to a whole nother level .*
*It's even dumber that romulens where not stripped of thier cloaking technologies .*
The federation would have had to go to war to do that. Which was never going to happen.
Federation didn't need cloaking device since they weren't militaristic. The one time it seemed as a necessity was to get through Dominion space safely to find The Founders. Romulans and Klingons being more warlike used it as advantage in battles and conquest.
The main reason was to prevent the writers from using it as a method of creating impossible situations and then at the last moment having a "Deus Ex Machina" moment and all the heros get away. A little bit like every time Burnham appears.
They could just have it break in situation. Just like how the shields seem to go down after taking a couple hits and nobody though about upgrading them.
Starfleets next little gambit. An ultra low near zero emissions starship with a holofield projector 'disguising' it as empty space.
Romulan - "The Treaty of Algeron forbids you from developing cloaking technology!
Federation - "And we honored that treaty in good faith. We have not developed any cloaking technogies."
Romulan - "So then why does one of our Warbird's describe in detail a Federation ship cloaking?"
Federation - "Oh, well that was just a misinterpretation of events on their part. What they saw was a starship engaging its silent mode running while also at the same time testing a modified holofield projector. Apparently if your Warbird couldn't see it or detect it, our stealth technology must be rather advanced. It is rather sad though your Warbird suffered catastrophic hull failure when our test vehicle's quantum torpedoes prematurely detonated on the hull of Warbird. You simply must remind your captains when cloaked, don't place themselves in the line of fire."
Ah yes the a "includes very well thought out Discovery canon" disclaimer would have been appreciated.
fun fact i went to STLV and asked if t'rul was really seska in disguise as there were multiple indicators showing she was and brannon braga said it was a great theory but that the voyager and DS9 writers didnt collaborate much. needless to say i could go into details but im 99% sure t'rul was seska.
So question, when Romlous was destroyed and the empire was dissolved was the treaty null?
The pararell world fluid space device was more important as they could bypass cloaking.
In the last episode of TNG, the Federation was openly using cloaking technology. This was in the 2380s way before the 31st Century.
I would argue that the transphasic device found on the Pegasus is not an actual cloaking device but more of a time travel device because since two objects cannot be in the same location at the same point in time
The Romulan Cloaking officer on the Defiant disappeared around the same time that the Romulans formally allied with the dominion. I know they never mentioned it in the show but It seemed to me that this was implied. it would have been difficult for them to remove the device and keep their intentions a secret; and entering into an alliance with an active aggressor to the federation would have meant terminating the treaty anyways, so they left it on board. The dominion clearly had the advantage militarily and Romulan leadership did not foresee any situation arising which would cause them to reverse their position again (thanks Garak), so one cloaking device on board a ship that their planted officer likely obtained detailed internal scans of was not perceived to be a threat. ultimately that cloaking device would have been destroyed along with the original Defiant, and I don't recall the replacement ship having such a device (unless they got one from the klingons)
I always thought the Federation's ban on cloaking devices was only one point in the Treaty Of Algeron. Other points may have included--but not limited to--a ban on both sides against weaponizing artificial gravity and transporter systems, and Romulans ceding some territory to the Federation.
What if your private cargo captain independent from the Federation are you allowed to have a cloaking device?
That's a good question. Pretty sure you'll find a Ferengi merchant that generously sells one for the right amount.
The biggest flaw of the Federation in my opinion. Fanatically aiming for peace at the expense of objectivity, realism and some times it's own citizens dignity. The treaty with the Cardassian treaty is a example.
According to "The Enterprise Insodent" and subsiquent shows the Romulan's and the Klingon's formed an alliance. The Romulan's gave the Klingon's Cloak Tech and the Klingon's gave the Romulan's Warp Tech.
Kirk on several occasions, avoided confrontations by unknown ships, because, when they scanned the computers, they found "honorable intentions". Having cloaks might have misrepresented Starfleet's ideals of peace and exploration. However, the tech, should have been advanced for war ships, and possibly kept disconnected on board others, for emergencies.
Rick is always , A Breathe of Fresh Lore...
Could have been handy in several occasions as it would have made things easier. However in the end the greater good was actually keeping to the treaty and not bother other then trying to counter it or finding ways to do it differently. This eventually may end up leading to a completely new technology instead which will proof far more effective then cloaking technology on it's own. Cloaking technology is no more then a fancy camouflage after all. Also with the Romulans ending up joining Starfleet at some point it may end up adding to the end result. Do remember that a battle cloak was already introduced which would allow the ship to stay cloaked while firing it's main weapons systems where a cloak system on it's own couldn't do this. You did need to decloak before engaging combat. (although Kirk encountered a Romulan ship that did manage to shoot while cloaked somehow?)
Also personal cloaking systems would be a very usable system and is already introduced in the Star Trek Online storyline for Starfleet as well. Also Starfleet ships with cloak have been added which may add to the validation regarding Starfleet still using it (depending on whether someone wishes to see STO as canon or not)
I love your videos, you definitely put a lot of research and thought into them. :)
Terry O'Quinn's Erich Pressman was thinking in strictly TACTICAL terms.
The more legitimate UFP objection to not having cloaking technology has to do with Star Fleet operating under a Prime Directive of Non-Interference; risk of cultural contamination when making first contacts in uncloaked state is enormous.
The "Voyages" describes several tragedies, not least when James Kirk held command of the "Enterprise I," that RESULTED from such contaminations!
The Defiant joke made me lol👍
In a narrative sense it’s fair because it seems to be when it comes to the federation ‘anything you can do we can do better’ the majority of the time so I like that they can’t use it
I'd say the deal was worth it overall. Particularly following the alliance with the Klingons.
Starfleet really had a knack in areas like advanced sensors which could off set cloaked ships. Cloaked ships can be very dangerous sure, and not to be underestimated. However if found alone or detected in general puts the cloaked ship at a big disadvantage even against small ships.
Its reminiscent of the Naval treaties of days past tbh. We don't really know the terms of and the exact circumstances of the treaty so its hard to say if the Federation got a bad deal or not.
You should consider podcasts.. I love listening to this stuff as I work.
I guess there isnt a profit motive there.. =)
I always wondered why the federation didn't just buy/trade for an cloaking device from a 3rd party (klingons, ferengi).
The resources to continually develop cloaking tech to keep ahead of the game are likely a lot more than the resources to tweak sensor designs to detect them... Plus not being able to fire while cloaked is a ridiculous design flaw and not being able to use shields is just asking for trouble. Really, it's amazing that no one re-invented fragmentation shells to detect cloaks. Load an explosive device with a ton of metal shards and see what happens to an unshielded ship. Even if the navigational deflectors block the cloud of metal, it should be easy to detect where it is by where the expanding cloud or metal forms a gap.
Developing a cloaking device would just mean perpetuating a sort of arms race with the Romulans (and the Klingons). I'm glad the Federation was willing to break the cycle.
When was the last time you personally have seen a Starfleet ship? Ever think about that one?
How many billions of people would not have died in the Dominion war if every military ship in the Federation had a phase cloak? An invulnerability shield that's also invisible? It is one of the most ridiculous element of canon that Starfleet didn't make it's own cloaks. It would be criminally negligent.
Starfleet does use cloaking device but they're not used on every ship like Klingon or Romulon. Starfleet uses enhanced sensors to find cloaked ships mostly instead of using cloaking device themselves but only Starfleet has those advance sensors.
I think it was insane mostly because of the phasing cloak. The primary reason for the phasing cloak was to be able to go through solid objects, not to be invisible. That the ToA made this technology banned was a bad thing. It is kind of like how our treaty against nuclear in space has stopped us from going to the stars or getting to mars in a couple of months.
Always cracked med up that they used Nomad as a cloaking device.
Starfleet doesn't cloak because capes are much more fabulous!
Yes, capes are a very aggresive and brazen fashion statement but cloaks are more useful when disguising senior officer ponch...ya know the Admiral extra 30.
Romulan Seska vanishes randomly because she was a Changeling infiltrator (at least IMO)
Kinda feel like playing Star Trek Online now.
@Darth Revan Yeah, interesting how loyal we are to those treaties when real people are in charge. In reality there's no way we'd ever go along with a peace agreement where the other side can cloak and we can't.
I love the esthetics of your videos, not to mention the content. :-D
Much of the time on TNG, conflicts were resolved as a result of Picard giving a speech without the need for subterfuge. You can think back to how Picard shuts down Worf's requests to fire phasers a hundred times in the show: they don't want to make every interaction about combat in favor of diplomacy. DS9, on the other hand, had quite a few war stories and the cloak helped justify all the time spent behind enemy lines in the gamma quadrant.
Bro idk why, but just hearing your voice makes me want to play some STO lol
My rationale for the treaty is that the Federation decided that it would work well for the stability of the treaty if the Romulans can see clearly how strong Starfleet was and that they are not to be messed with.
Why didn't the Federation apply the phase cloak in their torpedoes, allowing them to penetrate enemy defenses, and explode from within the enemy vessels? That would have completely changed the dynamic of the Dominion war, and I would think that even the Borg would have been rendered vulnerable to that.
Man, this comment is so underrated. That is quite possibly the best idea I've ever heard for using phase-cloak technology if it's restricted from being used on Federation ships.
@Darth Revan Did those torpedoes phase shift through the hull? In the books, they described the tech differently, where they stated that the shock wave from the explosion was phased to multiple frequencies at once, and thus able to align with shield harmonics, and defeat the shields.