I love listening to your thoughts and I love your humility. Thank you! I have been feeling for a long while now that we need to take “power” out of leadership. I think both complimentarian and egalitarian views get it wrong on some level because of the power play. I believe that is why women are reacting so negatively towards men leadership in the church. In some churches, women’s gifts have been suppressed for so long that the reactions are coming out in rebellion and anger.
YES. This has always been the CENTRAL issue for me. My goodness, how refreshing it is to hear people talking about this. Jesus was crystal clear when he said "It shall not be so among you."
I find this topic fascinating from the standpoint that people feel the need to be absolute one or the other of these sides…to the extreme. Sounds exactly like our country’s politics! I fully embrace Truth Over Tribe. I want to be an example of the politics of the Lamb. The divisiveness is heartbreaking. I firmly believe God’s giving of spiritual gifts are as unique as each individual person and yet completely in *his image* all at the same time. So thank you, Preston, for walking this path the an open mind and heart so that you allow God’s word to be your guide. And also for acknowledging how you have learned from both men and women in your walk with the Lord.
Preston, I am always so thankful for the way you think through and approach different topics-especially the difficult topics you feel lead to research and teach on! Your insistence on building biblically based opinions and beliefs from the ground up through studying scripture with as little bias as humanly possible is truly admirable. I appreciate your humility and desire to find the truth rather than simply support a certain argument. I’m thankful the Lord has given you a platform to share your wisdom and well-earned knowledge with us!
Just wanted to mention Discord as an additional option for feedback and discussion. Discord is a fantastic utility for allowing discussion to live independently, while also providing effective tools for moderation and organization. Might be a little easier then emails, anyways that is my 2 cents. I really love the work you are doing and the discussions you are having.
I soooo appreciate being able to see you work through this in somewhat real time. Starting with the more fundamental questions like, "What is leadership?" is huge. Jesus did invert what leadership looks like, so the power dynamics should not be the same as secular institutions (though many churches sinfully fall into secular views and structuring). I think another place to start is "What is Church (with the big C)?" Church is the people of the Kingdom of God, already, but not yet. Church is not just the Sunday liturgy reading, worship songs, and sermon. It is the people of God's Kingdom living out their lives through the Spirit, sacrificially serving one another, preaching the gospel in their daily lives, all for the glory of God! I think so many women feel alienated from "Kingdom work" because many of our churches have a small view of what Church is; there is no place for women to serve because the pulpit is the main means of Church. If more churches would view the Church in Kingdom terms, where the daily lives of the body is Church, women would see that the Kingdom is not limiting on them, but very much thrives on them (regardless of whether a woman can have one particular role or not).
I’m so glad you’re doing this! I found the same issues as you with Mike wingers videos so I’m grateful for your approach. Will you make some videos on it as well? Would be good to point people to another resource for people. 👍🏼👍🏼
there is still a profound preoccupation with honour and status; the whole 'dignity' idea of much liberationism is precisely this; it is seeking after honour and status.
I'm finding all of this very interesting so thank you! I had two main thoughts I wanted to share. - To me the significance of Phoebe being a deacon is that deacons are also supposed to be "the husband of one wife". Seeing as this phrase is basically the only "proof" of gender exclusivity for overseers, her position as a deacon would appear to invalidate that alleged proof. - In Joel we read that "your sons and daughters will prophesy", which is quoted in Acts. If there is no indication that the prophecy Joel mentioned is any different than the rest of OT prophecy, we have no reason to believe that NT prophecy was any different because they would have been working with the expectation of what was written in Joel. I must say I find Grudem's ideas on this quite biazzare.
Now I'm thinking back to what you said in the beginning about the theme of flipping hierarchy on its head (I've watched this over several days). I agree with that assessment and it saddens me when I see egal writers/scholars apparently embrace hierarchy. Having said that, the very idea of leadership or having people who "oversee" what's going on in the body does give a certain level of prominence to those voices. And to exclude female voices is to exclude a critical perspective. We are the image of God as male AND female, not male only. So while I think the common ideas about authority are rejected by NT authors, I also think that the argument about needing female voices in these offices is valid.
The article you mention by Richard Blaylock "Towards a Definition of NT Prophecy" discusses briefly the case you make, also made by David Hill, for a functional equivalence between prophecy and preaching/teaching, saying it's alternately "argument by association" or merely circular. There seems to be a missing link in the NT equating the two forms of speech.
I would love to have expanded articles / footnotes that we could read online when you have to summarize for the sake of space in your book. Dr Heiser did this with Unseen Realm, had a website that you could go further down a rabbit hole if you wanted to. I think that format may work well with your book.
You need to talk to monica dennington, and please get a copy of The Source new testament by Dr. A Nyland. I love that your researching this, and really like your approach (for the most part..) in this video, but it's honestly ridiculous that people are arguing about this because the translations*** that we have now on the subject of female teachers and pastors ARE NOT THE WORDS THAT PAUL WROTE.
I'm currently of the opinion that women can teach to mixed audiences - but I err on the side that women should probably not be elders/pastors over the congregation - or at least not in a position to make leadership decisions that affect the spiritual life of the congregation. Looking forward to reading your book when it comes out. :)
@@goodmorninglife898, good point. "I do not allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; instead, she is to be silent. For Adam was created first, then Eve.1 Tim. 2:12-13.
@@Jimbob-hj6qp and now theres quoting the Word, just like Satan did, and then theres context of the Word, through revelation and understanding from God.
@@goodmorninglife898 Mmmm the devil has lots of tactics - another is questioning God "Did God really say .....?" Genesis 3:1 I want to be obedient & discerning. I have wrestled a lot with this & I want to be careful that I don't cast doubt on God's word. 💒
Peter Head from Wycliffe Hall Oxford whom you mentioned recently helping you with manuscripts has been researching the role of letter carriers for the last few years.
hi preston. super appreciate your approach to this topic/issue. quick question: what level of patreon donor do you have to be to read the research that you put up on there?
Yeah but you even said that Grudem sees Apostles as the NT version of the Old Testament prophet. So that would make sense that John would come off that way. Am I wrong?
As I am beginning to ponder this topic, I find your statements and insight helpful. At creation they apparently were equal - God's original plan. The subjugation came after and because of the fall. It will not be that way in Heaven - not even marriage. So this is apparently an issue of sin, falseness and judgement - not God's original will. Someone said this was until redemption when the original plan is now being restored - and there is no male or female in His plan. To the extent we can incorporate that we are realizing His original plan.
I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah. Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually. She was a pastor, according to the scriptures. This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles. To say a woman can be a Judge over Israel, but a woman can't be an elder in a small church, just doesn't make any sense scripturally. you wrote: At creation they apparently were equal - God's original plan. The subjugation came after and because of the fall. According to scripture a Judge (such as Deborah) could judge homicide cases. There was no appeal to a Judge's verdict according to scripture. The only way a woman could execute a man for his sin would be if women and men are equal. Deborah could execute men. She was over Barak, who was commander of the army.
The Lord did not disqualify Eve From having dominion over the Earth because she was a woman… God made Eve from the rib of Adam because it was not good for him to be Alone .. So why would we think that men and men Alone should have leadership in the church… I will not pic a side of egalitarianism or compliment because there are extremes on both sides .. I just believe the person with the clear calling to be in a leadership position should get it according to their gift and not to their gender… God saw fit to call Debra to be a judge over Israel so why is it such a controversial issue today 🤷♀️ Would someone argue with God why He used Debra and not her husband? I should hope not …
If Stephen was a deacon then yes deacons are servants but can also preach the gospel.. If we can look at how the church came to look as Stephen as a man of wisdom and doing amazing things then being a deacon does not mean that they had no authority.. They were over taking care of the believers needs …
I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah. Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually. She was a pastor, according to the scriptures. This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles. To say a woman can be a Judge over Israel, but a woman can't be an elder in a small church, just doesn't make any sense scripturally.
Prophets and prophecy functioned in a variety of ways in both the OT and NT. There are differing scenarios and roles for prophecy that reflect complementarity. In this video it seems clear where your preferences lie and where you’re going to land (or already have!) Even your aversion to using/saying “allow” is revealing. Paul was not shy about using it. You mention that you think Grudem is letting his view on this impact his exegesis. I think the same can be said in your approach as well. In the prophecy study I kept waiting for the evidence of a prophetess writing a canonical NT book like John did or one standing up to preach like Peter did or two sent out like Silas & Barnabas were or one mentioned by name as church leaders like those in the Antioch church were…but none were forthcoming. I wonder why?!?!? And yet you conclude with confidence that women prophetess were surely preaching, teaching, and laying the foundation of the church just like the men in that church! The suspense factor is great for a RUclips channel but it’s evident where you are and where you are going to land. It’s just a matter of when you publicly come out and say it!
I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah. Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually. She was a pastor, according to the scriptures. This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles. To say a woman can be a Judge over Israel, but a woman can't be an elder in a small church, just doesn't make any sense scripturally.
The key reason always has been and always will be is the nature of man and woman, how God created us to be, as stated in 1 Timothy 2:12-14: “But I DON’T PERMIT a woman to teach, nor to exercise authority over a man, but to be in quietness. For [because] ADAM WAS FORMED FIRST [given a specific personality to do his big-picture tasks. Eve was then designed by God to complement man with complementary (not the same) characteristics - proven now by science], then Eve. Adam WASN’T DECEIVED, but the WOMAN, BEING DECEIVED, has fallen into disobedience….” The Biblical reason for husbands being head of their wives is similar, which many "Christian" women now reject, letting themselves be influenced by the anti-Christ world system that is destroying society and Christianity. Many men are just giving up, being James-3 cursed by women to take a second seat, or "you'll get the silent treatment." "Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft." America is on its last leg as a result, almost everyone believing "once saved always saved" and/or "only believe," so few born-again Christians actually abide in Christ to be "in Christ," "walking not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit," the place of "no condemnation."
I love listening to your thoughts and I love your humility. Thank you! I have been feeling for a long while now that we need to take “power” out of leadership. I think both complimentarian and egalitarian views get it wrong on some level because of the power play. I believe that is why women are reacting so negatively towards men leadership in the church. In some churches, women’s gifts have been suppressed for so long that the reactions are coming out in rebellion and anger.
YES. This has always been the CENTRAL issue for me. My goodness, how refreshing it is to hear people talking about this.
Jesus was crystal clear when he said "It shall not be so among you."
I find this topic fascinating from the standpoint that people feel the need to be absolute one or the other of these sides…to the extreme. Sounds exactly like our country’s politics! I fully embrace Truth Over Tribe. I want to be an example of the politics of the Lamb.
The divisiveness is heartbreaking. I firmly believe God’s giving of spiritual gifts are as unique as each individual person and yet completely in *his image* all at the same time. So thank you, Preston, for walking this path the an open mind and heart so that you allow God’s word to be your guide. And also for acknowledging how you have learned from both men and women in your walk with the Lord.
Preston, I am always so thankful for the way you think through and approach different topics-especially the difficult topics you feel lead to research and teach on! Your insistence on building biblically based opinions and beliefs from the ground up through studying scripture with as little bias as humanly possible is truly admirable. I appreciate your humility and desire to find the truth rather than simply support a certain argument. I’m thankful the Lord has given you a platform to share your wisdom and well-earned knowledge with us!
Just wanted to mention Discord as an additional option for feedback and discussion. Discord is a fantastic utility for allowing discussion to live independently, while also providing effective tools for moderation and organization. Might be a little easier then emails, anyways that is my 2 cents. I really love the work you are doing and the discussions you are having.
👏
The main thing I want to know: Is it really that cold in your basement, that you have to wear a knit cap? Idaho looks cold!!
I soooo appreciate being able to see you work through this in somewhat real time. Starting with the more fundamental questions like, "What is leadership?" is huge. Jesus did invert what leadership looks like, so the power dynamics should not be the same as secular institutions (though many churches sinfully fall into secular views and structuring). I think another place to start is "What is Church (with the big C)?" Church is the people of the Kingdom of God, already, but not yet. Church is not just the Sunday liturgy reading, worship songs, and sermon. It is the people of God's Kingdom living out their lives through the Spirit, sacrificially serving one another, preaching the gospel in their daily lives, all for the glory of God! I think so many women feel alienated from "Kingdom work" because many of our churches have a small view of what Church is; there is no place for women to serve because the pulpit is the main means of Church. If more churches would view the Church in Kingdom terms, where the daily lives of the body is Church, women would see that the Kingdom is not limiting on them, but very much thrives on them (regardless of whether a woman can have one particular role or not).
All of this is just fascinating!!! So grateful for your work and willingness to share your findings and musings on this.
I’m so glad you’re doing this! I found the same issues as you with Mike wingers videos so I’m grateful for your approach. Will you make some videos on it as well? Would be good to point people to another resource for people. 👍🏼👍🏼
there is still a profound preoccupation with honour and status; the whole 'dignity' idea of much liberationism is precisely this; it is seeking after honour and status.
I'm finding all of this very interesting so thank you!
I had two main thoughts I wanted to share.
- To me the significance of Phoebe being a deacon is that deacons are also supposed to be "the husband of one wife". Seeing as this phrase is basically the only "proof" of gender exclusivity for overseers, her position as a deacon would appear to invalidate that alleged proof.
- In Joel we read that "your sons and daughters will prophesy", which is quoted in Acts. If there is no indication that the prophecy Joel mentioned is any different than the rest of OT prophecy, we have no reason to believe that NT prophecy was any different because they would have been working with the expectation of what was written in Joel.
I must say I find Grudem's ideas on this quite biazzare.
Now I'm thinking back to what you said in the beginning about the theme of flipping hierarchy on its head (I've watched this over several days). I agree with that assessment and it saddens me when I see egal writers/scholars apparently embrace hierarchy. Having said that, the very idea of leadership or having people who "oversee" what's going on in the body does give a certain level of prominence to those voices. And to exclude female voices is to exclude a critical perspective. We are the image of God as male AND female, not male only. So while I think the common ideas about authority are rejected by NT authors, I also think that the argument about needing female voices in these offices is valid.
The article you mention by Richard Blaylock "Towards a Definition of NT Prophecy" discusses briefly the case you make, also made by David Hill, for a functional equivalence between prophecy and preaching/teaching, saying it's alternately "argument by association" or merely circular. There seems to be a missing link in the NT equating the two forms of speech.
Also, even from the standpoint of English etymology, the definition of edification as "building up" makes sense. Edifice = building.
I would love to have expanded articles / footnotes that we could read online when you have to summarize for the sake of space in your book. Dr Heiser did this with Unseen Realm, had a website that you could go further down a rabbit hole if you wanted to. I think that format may work well with your book.
Thank you!
You need to talk to monica dennington, and please get a copy of The Source new testament by Dr. A Nyland. I love that your researching this, and really like your approach (for the most part..) in this video, but it's honestly ridiculous that people are arguing about this because the translations*** that we have now on the subject of female teachers and pastors ARE NOT THE WORDS THAT PAUL WROTE.
I'm currently of the opinion that women can teach to mixed audiences - but I err on the side that women should probably not be elders/pastors over the congregation - or at least not in a position to make leadership decisions that affect the spiritual life of the congregation. Looking forward to reading your book when it comes out. :)
I’m right there with you.
Theres opinions, what we think. What we feel, but whats the Word say.
@@goodmorninglife898, good point. "I do not allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; instead, she is to be silent. For Adam was created first, then Eve.1 Tim. 2:12-13.
@@Jimbob-hj6qp and now theres quoting the Word, just like Satan did, and then theres context of the Word, through revelation and understanding from God.
@@goodmorninglife898 Mmmm the devil has lots of tactics - another is questioning God "Did God really say .....?" Genesis 3:1
I want to be obedient & discerning. I have wrestled a lot with this & I want to be careful that I don't cast doubt on God's word. 💒
What do you think of “Hearing Her Voice” by John Dickson? You mentioned his ideas were interesting.
Peter Head from Wycliffe Hall Oxford whom you mentioned recently helping you with manuscripts has been researching the role of letter carriers for the last few years.
hi preston.
super appreciate your approach to this topic/issue.
quick question: what level of patreon donor do you have to be to read the research that you put up on there?
Yeah but you even said that Grudem sees Apostles as the NT version of the Old Testament prophet. So that would make sense that John would come off that way. Am I wrong?
As I am beginning to ponder this topic, I find your statements and insight helpful. At creation they apparently were equal - God's original plan. The subjugation came after and because of the fall. It will not be that way in Heaven - not even marriage. So this is apparently an issue of sin, falseness and judgement - not God's original will. Someone said this was until redemption when the original plan is now being restored - and there is no male or female in His plan. To the extent we can incorporate that we are realizing His original plan.
I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah.
Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually.
She was a pastor, according to the scriptures.
This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles.
To say a woman can be a Judge over Israel, but a woman can't be an elder in a small church, just doesn't make any sense scripturally.
you wrote:
At creation they apparently were equal - God's original plan. The subjugation came after and because of the fall.
According to scripture a Judge (such as Deborah) could
judge homicide cases. There was no appeal to a Judge's
verdict according to scripture. The only way a woman could
execute a man for his sin would be if women and men are equal.
Deborah could execute men. She was over Barak, who was
commander of the army.
Mike Winger has also done an exhaustive series on the same including a 6 hour piece on head coverings!! Yeah.
41:38.... Paul did use the word prostatis... and he applied it to Phebe. (Rom 16:2)
The Lord did not disqualify Eve From having dominion over the Earth because she was a woman… God made Eve from the rib of Adam because it was not good for him to be Alone .. So why would we think that men and men Alone should have leadership in the church… I will not pic a side of egalitarianism or compliment because there are extremes on both sides .. I just believe the person with the clear calling to be in a leadership position should get it according to their gift and not to their gender… God saw fit to call Debra to be a judge over Israel so why is it such a controversial issue today 🤷♀️ Would someone argue with God why He used Debra and not her husband? I should hope not …
Mike Winger covers the prophecy argument fairly well, I thought. Might be useful for you.
If Stephen was a deacon then yes deacons are servants but can also preach the gospel.. If we can look at how the church came to look as Stephen as a man of wisdom and doing amazing things then being a deacon does not mean that they had no authority.. They were over taking care of the believers needs …
I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah.
Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually.
She was a pastor, according to the scriptures.
This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles.
To say a woman can be a Judge over Israel, but a woman can't be an elder in a small church, just doesn't make any sense scripturally.
Prophets and prophecy functioned in a variety of ways in both the OT and NT. There are differing scenarios and roles for prophecy that reflect complementarity. In this video it seems clear where your preferences lie and where you’re going to land (or already have!) Even your aversion to using/saying “allow” is revealing. Paul was not shy about using it. You mention that you think Grudem is letting his view on this impact his exegesis. I think the same can be said in your approach as well.
In the prophecy study I kept waiting for the evidence of a prophetess writing a canonical NT book like John did or one standing up to preach like Peter did or two sent out like Silas & Barnabas were or one mentioned by name as church leaders like those in the Antioch church were…but none were forthcoming. I wonder why?!?!?
And yet you conclude with confidence that women prophetess were surely preaching, teaching, and laying the foundation of the church just like the men in that church!
The suspense factor is great for a RUclips channel but it’s evident where you are and where you are going to land. It’s just a matter of when you publicly come out and say it!
I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah.
Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually.
She was a pastor, according to the scriptures.
This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles.
To say a woman can be a Judge over Israel, but a woman can't be an elder in a small church, just doesn't make any sense scripturally.
The key reason always has been and always will be is the nature of man and woman, how God created us to be, as stated in 1 Timothy 2:12-14: “But I DON’T PERMIT a woman to teach, nor to exercise authority over a man, but to be in quietness. For [because] ADAM WAS FORMED FIRST [given a specific personality to do his big-picture tasks. Eve was then designed by God to complement man with complementary (not the same) characteristics - proven now by science], then Eve. Adam WASN’T DECEIVED, but the WOMAN, BEING DECEIVED, has fallen into disobedience….”
The Biblical reason for husbands being head of their wives is similar, which many "Christian" women now reject, letting themselves be influenced by the anti-Christ world system that is destroying society and Christianity.
Many men are just giving up, being James-3 cursed by women to take a second seat, or "you'll get the silent treatment."
"Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft." America is on its last leg as a result, almost everyone believing "once saved always saved" and/or "only believe," so few born-again Christians actually abide in Christ to be "in Christ," "walking not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit," the place of "no condemnation."
Dr. William J Webb's work is very interesting on this topic. @prestonsprinkleraw