Is Lying Ever Justified in the Bible?
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- Опубликовано: 8 окт 2024
- Did God encourage Samuel to lie in 1 Samuel 16? In this video, Frank compares the biblical accounts of Samuel and Abraham and their withholding of information. Are Samuel and Abraham's stories relatively the same? Or is there something more at play?
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It’s just like when I come home from work and my family asks how my day was and what I did. I tell them a basic summary of the main points of my day. I conceal the rest simply because it’s uninteresting. It does not make me a liar. Samuel concealed for for a different reason but same premise.
That’s all good and fine, and I agree that omission is different than lying, but this kind of skirts around the more controversial issue: full-blown, intentionally deceitful, straight-up lying. Right or wrong?
I would argue that it is generally wrong to lie, but God uses lies to work them for good. That doesn’t mean he condones lying in its own right.
Perfect example is when Jacob pretended to be Esau to snake Isaac’s blessing from him. It was still wrong for him to lie. But God used it for good.
@@Papa-dopoulos
It’s hands down always wrong to lie. Can God make good happen out of even genocides or sexual assaults? Yes. God can make anything work together for good in the end, but that wouldn’t make all sin ‘generally’ wrong, it is absolutely wrong.
@@buddy_132 We 100% agree. Any difference in our two statements is purely semantics
@@reality1958
I wouldn’t say anything! XD
@@Papa-dopoulos okay good. You used the word ‘generally’ which means most of the time. I’m glad we’re on the same page brother!
It would help if you also deal with the story of Rahab, that would be most helpful.
Wow this was right on time I needed this Amen
Better examples of God lying or commanding a lie in the Bible. Hopefully this is right on time too!
"I [Jesus] am not going up to this festival, because my time has not yet fully come.' After he had said this, he stayed in Galilee. However, after his brothers had left for the festival, he went also, not publicly, but in secret." - John 7:8-10
"So now the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you." - 1 Kings 22:23
@@incredulouspasta3304 - I understand how those passages can seem like a contradiction to God's command for us to tell the truth, but they are not. I encourage you to read the entire Scripture to see God's heart on this and to understand these situations in the right context.
For the first situation, Jesus meant that He was going to the festival later, and that He was not going with His brothers, most likely because their disbelief would have been a distraction to His purpose. The Greek present tense of the verb here means more like, "I am not now going." The text even says that he stayed in Galilee after they went on, which could have been an extra day or two. What's interesting is that when Jesus eventually did go up to the festival, the Jews there accused Him of being a liar. So these accusations are nothin new to our Messiah. He is the embodiment of Truth, and there is no deception in Him. Any confusion is on our part because we know so little as human beings.
As for the deceiving spirits, remember God is sovereign over every being. He can use Satan and his demons for His purposes. The deceiving spirits didn't belong to God, but they are under His command and can be used to bring about His ultimate will.
Hope this helps clarify some questions for you! (John 7:18) 🙂
@@incredulouspasta3304”Could John have failed to realize that he recorded the Lord’s telling of a bald-faced lie in the very same passage He is called a deceiver by His enemies (John 7:12, 47)? Could John have possibly missed the irony that Jesus, a liar, publicly condemns His enemies as liars (John 8:44, 55)? Of course not. The fact is that Jesus told no lie. John makes it perfectly clear that Jesus’ response to His brothers meant only that He was not going when His brothers thought He should go. The Lord was working on a different timetable, and He was not going to allow His brothers to dictate His actions.
In summary, Jesus did not lie to His half-brothers. He was making it clear to them that if or when He went to the festival was a matter of God’s exact timing and perfect plan, not their ignorant opinions. He knew His brothers would see Him at the festival and would have to think about what He told them more deeply when His exact hour had come, but not before (cf. John 7:30).
As followers of Christ, “we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God” (2 Corinthians 4:2). God unfolds His plan for our lives in His own perfect timing (Psalm 116:3-9; 2 Corinthians 6:2; Ephesians 1:3-12) to conform us to His own glorious Son (Romans 8:28-30), who is Truth Himself (John 14:6).”
@@incredulouspasta33048 Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come.
9 When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee.
10 But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret
JESUS didn't lie , he said I go not up YET. he went up later, so the only lie told was by you. Kjv
I might have said, God didn't tell Samuel to lie, but rather instructed him to make a sacrifice, which he did. Abraham didn't ask God what to do, and Samuel did.
yep
You are very right
I’m trying to find where God punished Abraham. All I see is Him punishing g the ruler.
@@jonathandixon7760 - I never said anything about Abraham being punished and in fact God helped him out of his situation through the dream the king had.
I know one problem is that people misquote the 9th commandment. It doesn't say "Do not lie" it says "Do not bear false witness against your neighbor". That's a big difference.
It's the same thing.
@jaysonfederick5850 Not at all."Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses" whenever there was a dispute over a crime or ownership. They could find people to give a false statement and take someone's property or have them killed or put in prison. Huge difference.
Thank you, I was gonna write this, until I saw you wrote this. Bearing false witness is not neccesarily the same thing as lying. Not that we should be striving to lie to people, but from my understanding, the idea of bearing false witness was with malicious intent.
Objective morality: lying is fine, as long as you don't bear false witness against your neighbour.
@oscargr28 Misrepresention, no one said lying is ok.
This is exactly what I explain to people when asked the same thing. You see, withholding the truth is not the same as twisting the truth. God often withholds some truth when someone cannot handle the entire truth. Otherwise we'd be lying when we don't blab out to everyone our passwords or where we hide treasures.
Is it moral for god to lie? Is it moral for Jesus to lie?
It's called occulting knowledge, it's literally why the Bible is an occulted work because the knowledge beneath the parables is only for the worthy, Jesus tells us this in Mark 4: 11-12. My question is why are you all listening to the clergy telling you to take the stories literally and not Jesus?
@knotsew5490 The entire context is based in a parable, did Frank mention that it was a parable? No, he literally inferred it was a real event, note him saying "imagine them trembling at the sight of the prophets" inferring this was a real situation. How can you expect to gain any truth from the clergy when they are being dishonest from the beginning and relaying these stories in the Bible as though they were real events.
@knotsew5490 Lying according to the definition in Miriam Webster is “marked by or containing untrue statements.” A statement must be made for a lie to take place in the context of the statement, not outside the context of the statement. If a person is cheating on their spouse, if he/she hasn’t been asked about it, the offender cannot lie about it, it is a secret. If they are asked, “Are you cheating?”, and they are, but respond, “No,” that is a lie. If they are asked instead, “Why were you late getting home?” and the response is “I was meeting with a client”, if the affair is with a client, they still haven’t lied. If, however, it is asked, “What were all your activities following work, and some of those activities included the affair, if the person responding omits the information about having an affair, THAT is what is called a lie of omission, and it IS a lie, because a list of all activities was expected and indicated in the question by the person asking, but the person answering left out an activity, but claimed their list was a complete list of activities when it was not and they knew it. An assumption on the person asking the question that context is implied without being stated does not count toward the answer of the question. The person answering isn’t obligated to read minds or make the same assumptions, but to only answer truthfully what was asked within the words of the question, if their answer contains something not true, they have lied.
@knotsew5490What a ridiculous interpretation!
The story of Rahab comes to mind as well. She is spoken of favorably in the New testament for hiding the two Israelites from pursuers and misdirecting the pursuers, but didn’t she need to lie to do that? And yet she was praised for these actions.
I would like this story touched upon as well.
And for a more modern example if lying is always wrong, what if you were hiding Jews from some Nazis and were questioned on their location, is there implication you should sell them out for the sake of not lying? You certainly couldn’t stay silent as it would look suspicious.
It does make me think. If evil is pressed upon a person outside of their volition, then de-escalation of that evil seems the appropriate course of action toward goodness. The lie seems to me as the lesser of the evils presented to Rahab. Her choices were either:
1. Reveal the spies and go against God's ruling of Israel inheriting the land.
2. Lie about the spies, save her life and those who took shelter in her room in the wall.
The latter seems to me to have potentially sparred some Israelis in the conflict afterward at the expense of her city. The city according to Rahab, knew their odds were slim to none against the Israelites, but decided to bunker up rather than surrender. This to me escalated to a violent removal rather than deescalate to what I would assume could have been a peaceful relocation. This might apply to the many who did fight against Israel during their conquest of land.
She was praised for her faith. Jesus died on the cross to forgive her lie.
First of all, Rahab was not Israelite. She was not part and under the covenant with God. To make matter worst, did her lies justifiable? If her lies were terrible, James would not use that as an example as justification by works. This is the point that James used to illustrate justification by works before men, that is where she confessed about the real true god in Joshua 2:9-10
I'll need to reread the Rahab story but it's likely a similar situation as what Frank was describing here. I remember when I was on a missionary ship and some of the older men were telling stories about thier most perilous journeys, they were smuggling bibles into Muslim countries, an offense they could have been imprisoned or killed for. They told everyone "we had to lie" but I didn't agree. I didn't say anything of course, I was just some teenager, but I still feel the same. I feel like God isn't going to tell you to commit sin, there must have been another way.
@@Siah999 I think you're missing something. James illustrated Rahab's story by saying "In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?" The emphasis is on what she did for the spies, not the lies. The act of faith in what she did for the spies is that which is praised, i.e. making a dangerous choice to save lives when she's on the line.
A classic question skeptics have asked for years.
And the answer is not only true, it makes perfect Biblical sense.
Frank. Please come to St. Louis MO!!! We would love to see you here. Im a huge fan.
It seems the premise of this question was setup as a gotcha moment to accuse God of promoting lies. Some atheist probably thought they had something good here. As if telling everyone every possible piece of information in detail about everything is even the way we talk. No one does that and its never been considered lying. But when people are set against God and the Bible, this is the stuff they come up with.
Nah all youbhave to do is point out that the silly supernatural claims of Christianity are unsupported nonsense.
And it's over.
It's the spaghetti strategy throw it at the wall maybe it will stick
@@mattslater2603 Explain the eye witness testimony of the Apostles for which they proclaimed Jesus rose from the dead, and they gave up their lives in every way - suffering great persecution - all the way to their brutal deaths - with no gain in this world - attesting to the fact that this happened.
If they knew it was a lie, this makes absolutely zero sense.
It matches with the Old Testament scripture, the fulfilment of all the detailed specific prophecies of the Christ, and his death burial and resurrection to take place - all of which occurred, and we have the eye witnesses of the event (and their entire time in Jesus's ministry before the crucifixion - performing all the miracles etc) recording their testimony.
@@zackmac5917I wouldn’t waste my time with this guy. He never discusses these things in good faith, and he rarely brings any good arguments or evidence to support him. He mostly just throws in snide comments and unsupported claims, and seems to have no concern for seeking the truth.
You had a great response, though 👍🏼
@@spencergsmithWhen I cut grass, I always wear decent socks and good boots, we have snakes and so on, and I have no wish to find out if I am an apostle...
No matter how I lace my boots, I always get a grass seed that finds it's way into a sock and irritates me. It always seems to happen when I start the job, and I end up being irritated by that grass seed for the rest of the day until I can take my boots and socks off. Now, why did reading your comment about 'this guy' make me think of that?
It's another situation where one has to read the situation, before knowing what to do, and using correct judgment.
It is definitely not always appropriate to tell everything.
@knotsew5490 even if someone's judgment is better than our own?
@knotsew5490 That doesn't answer the question. Are you suggesting that at all times, everyone should use their own judgment? If so, why?
@knotsew5490 so when shouldn't one use their own judgment?
@knotsew5490 those are fair. But I don't think they cover all.
So, if I use my own judgment and come to the same conclusion as the video, what then?
@knotsew5490 and who or what decides that my judgment was poor?
What if mine and CE were correct?
I concur with Dr. Turek's clarification on this passage and this issue.
Whether intentional or not, the individual who perceived a "justification to lie" is merely injecting their own desire to do so, thereby seeing, and reading, things that are simply NOT there.
GOD is NEVER going to contradict Himself; He is infallible, He is perfect, to believe otherwise, is to NOT know GOD, or to believe in a false god. GOD is infinite, omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, timeless, intelligent, morally perfect, personal supreme creator being whose Word is a reflective of Him, which is perfect, devoid of flaws, moral, just, true, and always RIGHT!
2 Corinthians 4:3-6 “But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of GOD, should shine on them. For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. For it is the GOD who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of GOD in the face of Jesus Christ.”
Titus 1:15 “To the pure all things are pure but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscious are defiled.”
Here's a perfect example in how those without pure hearts (intentions) will ALWAYS misinterpret what the Bible teaches, misconstruing (either intentionally or not) the Word of GOD, to justify their own limited and bias viewpoint, trusting in their own understanding/reason and not in GOD's.
Proverbs 3:5-6 “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths.”
GOD does NOT change, His is unchanging, the "unmoved mover." He is consistent throughout, which is what the Bible (history) reveals. It is we (who are flawed) who change, and MUST change, by forsaking our wills in favor of GOD's will, and His RIGHT way, which is the ONLY way. It is for this reason that the ONLY one we can really trust, is GOD, who is the ONLY ONE, who keeps His promises and whose WORD is TRUE, because it--He--is RIGHT!
“Do not trust in friend; do not put your confidence in a companion; guard the doors of your mouth from her who lies in your bosom. For the son dishonor’s father, daughter rises against her mother, daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; a man’s enemies are the man of his own household. Therefore, I will look to the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation; my God would hear me” (Micah 7:5-7; Psalm 16:1, 37:3-5, 56:3, 56:11, 18:1-3, 18:8-9, 28:7, 34, 37:3-5, 40, 56:3-4, 56:11, 62:8, 73:21-28 & 118:8-9; Proverbs 3:5; Job 13:15; Jeremiah 17:9; Philippians 4:7)
Joshua 24:15
John 8:32, 14:6, & 14:27
Romans 1:16-17
1 Corinthians 2:1-9 & 16:13-14
Psalms 18:1-3, 23, 28:7, 34, 35, 37:30-31, 40, 51, 55 & 91 - 95
Exodus 14:14
Isaiah 41:13 & 41:29
Ephesians 6:10-18
Strength and Honor!
Agreed keeping a secret is not lying..not telling someone something is not lying..
Remember even God has his secrets that we would never understand.
"A talebearer revealeth secrets: but he that is of a faithful spirit concealeth the matter"
Proverbs 11:13
Is lying OK if it's god doing the lying? Is lying OK if it's Jesus doing the lying?
@knotsew5490 What is worse than lying? Lots of things. Rape and murder are worse.
@@cnault3244 Jesus and God have never lied and never will. It's not in their nature to lie ..they have no reason to lie. They are above it all
@@dragonsigner Haven't you read the Bible? Here are the passages from the Bible:
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
(Adam was to die the very day that he ate the forbidden fruit.)
Genesis 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
Adam did NOT die on the day he ate the fruit., he lived 930 years.
If you break a promise, you have lied. Here, god admits he broke his promise:
Numbers 14:30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.
God broke his promise= god lied.
Here, god deliberately deludes people so they will believe a lie.
2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
( what's worse, he deceived them so he could damn them)
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Here, Jesus lies to his disciples.
John 7:8 Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come.
9 When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee.
10 But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.
We are commanded to go into the world as gentle as sheep among wolves but to be cunning as the serpent. When you go to God in prayer he reveals through his Holy Spirit. ❤️🙏
This is a great answer! I’m going to keep this video bookmarked for when my wife asks me why I was working so late!
Thank you CE, God bless.
There is another verse where the angels suggest to God that they should go and be lying spirits in their mouths, and God says it will work.
I don't think Shmuel ever lied, thanks Frank.
Always tell the truth, especially when you are invited for dinner and someone's wife cooks
😂😂what a terrible situation to be in if someone’s wife can’t cook.
@@horace9341Not really. As long as her partner can then its no issue.
I've been involved in this exact situation. My daughter and her daughter were friends.
She invited me to supper and made the grossest lasagna I've ever tasted. I made the mistake of complementing her on the delicious dinner.
After that I was invited once a week to partake in this delicious meal.😢
@@mattslater2603 So it is true. Atheists have no sense of humour. Sad that you need to find something serious in what is obviously a pun 🤷♂️
@@derekallen4568 I think we have all at some point been in a similar situation. How does one tell them without wishing to offend?
I had to work with a smelly guy, placing cans of deodorant in strategic locations didn’t seem to work. It took me over 2 months to finally pull him to one side because nobody else would do it. I was pleasantly surprised on how well he took it. The next day he came into work as smelly as usual. So much for that effort.
Thanks Frank, I will like your comment on 2kings 8:9 & 10, the whole context being 2 kings 8 on Elisha and Hazael.
The other thing is the spirit of the issue. Abraham was lying for selfish reasons, but Samuel hid the truth in order to carry out the will of God. The example of the Israelite midwives in Exodus is useful for this discussion.
When did God condemn Abraham for his lie? Can someone give me the chapter?
No. But we live in such a sinful world that sometimes we have no good choices to make, and we seek forgiveness for the things we sometimes have to do.
A parallel to this is when we write an exam. Though we have a lot of information that we can put down, we don't write anything that is unrelated to the question presented to us.
We are not commanded to always tell the truth, but to not bear false witness. When the statement causes harm to another then it is bearing false witness but if the lie is protecting another or causes no harm it may be a lie but it is not bearing false witness.
You’re saying that lying is not the same as bearing false witness.
Can you explain this? And can you back this up scripturally that lying is actually permissible? Because it sounds like classic sophistry.
I agree with the comment but also the new testament mentions "lying',not" bearing false witness" Not sure if its speaking in the same way or if its any lie regardless .
@@Godlimate it may be helpful to compare it to murder vs killing. god commands us "thou shalt not kill" but is that the correct translation? many scholars think it should be translated as "thou shalt not murder". well, what's the difference? murder is simply unjustified killing. well then, what is "justified" killing? self-defense comes to mind. likewise, when it comes to lies, i believe there's justified lie and unjustified lie. a good example of justified lie is when some people hid jews during WW2. an example in the bible is when rahab hid two spies and lied about it (Joshua 2:4-5). this action was later praised by new testament writers (Hebrews 11:31 and James 2:25). theologically speaking, any lie may well be a sin even if it had good intentions. but practically speaking, the bible has proven it beyond a reasonable doubt that a lie told in "faith" is "acceptable".
@@joegame4576 I understand that “murder” definitionally means wrongful killing. But where does “false witness” definitionally translate to wrongful lying?
Isn’t lying in of itself bearing false witness?
So if I lied to the Nazis in what sense am I not bearing false witness to them?
Seems like a double edged sword where deceit is something the enemy does but we also use it to our advantage. Doesn’t seem like a very robust commandment if we are no better than the enemy in this sense.
@@Godlimate murder is a legal term. killing is not. murder is punishable by law. killing, that is not murder, is not punished. why? false witness is a legal term. another word for it is perjury. it's punishable by law. lying is not illegal, and not punishable by law. why? there definitely is a difference between lying and bearing false witness. why didn't god just say "you shall not lie" but instead said "you shall not bear false witness AGAINST YOUR NEIGHBOR" that against your neighbor part is very important as it implies a legal trial or dispute that can lead to an innocent person being wrongfully punished. it is a very specific type of lie. it doesn't include such things as white lie for example. that being said, i'm not saying that some type of lie is ok or not sin. the bible speaks negatively about all types of lies and clearly states that god cannot lie. but that's because he's god. no one can threaten god. even though it may be sin to lie, i will not hesitate to lie in order to save innocent lives. as a side note, deception is a legitimate military strategy in war. i'm not sure if there's an example in the bible but i wouldn't be surprised to find one.
The OT doesn't say it's a sin to lie. It says not to bear false witness against your neighbor.
What about 1 Kings 22: Micaiah continued, ‘Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’
“One suggested this, and another that. Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’
“‘By what means?’ the Lord asked.
“‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.
“‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.’
Could you also address 1 Kings 22 with the lying spirit?
Great answer, but what about Exodus 5:1 where Moses and Aaron say to Pharaoh, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Let my people go, so that they may hold a festival to me in the wilderness.’ They did not go to hold a festival and they did not intend to go only a three day journey, they fled. I'm sure Pharaoh knew they were going to run away, but Moses was giving him the idea that they would return. And Exodus 14:5 says, "When the king of Egypt was told that the people had fled..." Doesn't this imply that Pharaoh really was under the impression that they were supposed to return?
This would make us want to determine the link between lying and righteousness. Could a lie up hold righteousness and the truth bring forth unrighteousness?
I think a better event to cite in order to question God commanding a lie is, the prophet Machaiah.
All the angels suggested to God, their ideas for how to achieve His desired outcome.
One of them volunteered to be a lying spirit, and to deceive all the prophets except Michaiah.
God approved of that plan.
Thank you
Well said.
According to the Bible, both lying and killing are sometimes justified.
Could you please explain "The evil spirit from the Lord"?
Did Rahab conceal or deceive? “But someone told the king of Jericho, “Some Israelites have come here tonight to spy out the land.” So the king of Jericho sent orders to Rahab: “Bring out the men who have come into your house, for they have come here to spy out the whole land.” Rahab had hidden the two men, but she replied, “Yes, the men were here earlier, but I didn’t know where they were from. They left the town at dusk, as the gates were about to close. I don’t know where they went. If you hurry, you can probably catch up with them.” (Actually, she had taken them up to the roof and hidden them beneath bundles of flax she had laid out.)”
Joshua 2:2-6 NLT
Those hiding Jewish families and children during the Holocaust, had to lie/conceal/withhold the truth.
That is one situation where it is legitimate.
I will give two examples;
1. If a bandit breaks into your house and tries to kill your sibling, and then in SELF DEFENSE you use a bottle on the bandit head and he dies, did you do wrong or right? Choose one!
2. Imagine a corrupt gang who have come to your house to kill your dad, because your dad helped someone or did a good thing, these guys are evil and so they hated the good your dad did. Your dad is at home, when these guys come at your door, you open it and they ask if your dad Is around that they would kill him for the good he has done, will you say your dad is around? Is yes, did you do bad or good?
@@KingsleyKhordYour examples are thin on detail. What was your intention? When you hit a bandit with a bottle, were you trying, hoping, wishing to save your sibling or stop the bandit or kill the bandit? These are real questions that courts find themselves looking at all the time.
You don't give all of the circumstantial evidence, what if your father had said 'those guys want to kill me, I know this, when the arrive, show them in, I will be waiting for them'.
We look often at actions of our fellow man and we never truly know the whole story, judgement day will be rather different, our Judge will know the whole story.
I think that this is deceiving.
Interesting ❤
From what I know you can lie, if the life of someone is in danger, the Egyptians' midwives lied, and God blessed them in Exodus... Mical lied to Saul, the king, and her father to save David' life... and Rahab was asked to lie by the Israelites and she was blessed by saving her life and her family, but also, God welcomed her into the nation of Israel and made her part of the Messiah's bloodline... the technical name of this is pikuach nefesh
How do we know it's not invented by the Jewish Fathers but come from God
Did Jesus has anything to say about it?
@@petrabanjarnahor229If you're going to doubt these stories then just say you don't believe the entire Torah (old Testament).
@petrabanjarnahor229 Jesus followed the principle of pikuach nefesh when He healed people on the Sabbath (Luke 13:10-13). When a synagogue leader objected, Jesus defended His actions with this challenge: “Doesn’t each of you on the Sabbath untie your ox or donkey from the stall and lead it out to give it water” (Luke 13:15).
Because the whole purpose of the Law is to bring forth life, not death
We have another case where the three man don't lie in front of the king of Babylone ( Nebucanetsar )the book of Daniel.
God's law does not read "You shall not lie....unless someone's life is in danger".
In my thinking, a lie is misleading someone who has the right to know or who intends to do justice with the information. It is not a lie to mislead someone who has no right to know the answer or who intends to do evil with the information.
That's a perfect summary I think
Yes. God looks at the intent of the heart. We as believers have a tendency to get legalistic, to draw absolute lines, that's not what God says. "To him who knows to do right and does not do it, to him it is sin." If a person is honestly trying to do right in lying, according to what God says there, it is not sin. Having said that though, it's really important to be very careful, as our sin nature will try to push those boundaries to justify unrighteous lies.
Jesus went well out of his way to make this point. For example, He said that if your animal falls into a well on the Sabbath, will you not work to rescue it? Doing so defies God's law, but it is justified, because it was the right thing to do.
"Thou Shalt Not Lie."
Everyone in this comment section is giving their subjective opinion on
1) When it's okay to lie.
2) Why it's okay to lie.
3) How it's okay to lie.
In order to come up with excuses to keep you and your god blameless and pure.
You are proving that Man regards the things he wants to regard and disregards the things he wants to disregard.
"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor" is not the same thing as "thou shalt not lie". It's a lie that is against another person.
@@mama-cita
And your comment has just proven my point.
Here is my point -
Man decides for himself those things he will regard and those things he will not regard.
You can tell I said that . . . because . . . that's what I said in my comment.
Each individual decides for themselves and we don't need a god to decide for us.
Just like you have proven in your comment with your opinion of what a lie is or is not.
Thanks Frank
The Commandment reads, do not bear false witness. But to save a life as with Rahab, it is not a sin.
James 2:25 & Joshua 2.
as christians we are not entitled to tell the whole truth especially if it will get in the way of gods work, just tell enough to remove suspicion or any cause for issue
Very good answer. 👍
Wouldn't that be a "lie of omission?" That's what my Christian school and Sunday school teachers would tell me
Tough one. Can Christian lie to enemy? Can i lie to someone about to do harm to me?
I disagree that God ever told us not lie. Some people interpret the commandment ‘thou shalt bear false witness’ means lying that you witnessed someone committing a crime, when you did not
This is correct. The actual phrase is "thou shalt not bear false witness" and NOT "thou shalt not lie".
I don't think its as simple as simply saying its only about false witness in a sort of "court setting", though. Lying about something that gets someone else into trouble inadvertantly absolutely is a form of false witness as well.
I remember this one Adventures in Odyssey episode about a story Witt wrote where a kid spent the money he had for his groceries. Rather than admit to his mom he basically said someone stole it. While nobody was caught in the incident, what if they had found someone? That effectively means someone is getting tried for a crime that didn't exist.
I think there's very few scenarios where lying actually results in a positive effect in general. But that doesn't mean lying in of itself is a sin. We are not to take away or _add to_ the Scriptures, so we can't simply say lying at all period is a sin when the scriptures are specifically talking about false witness.
I lean towards Geisler graded absolutes. In Deut the armies are COMMANDED in many wartime strategies to deceive the enemies in war. So this is in essence the same issue.
4:14 the Lord is being kind to Saul and not destroying his confidence in this way. A person's prayers are sometimes privately conducted
I think there are much greater considerations than were discussed:
(1) Actions are often judged by the motives (or intentions of the heart). There is a parable where the same sin of disobedience can be a greater sin for the person who knew God’s will rather than for the person who didn’t. Samuel was obeying God and seeking His will, not seeking personal gain. He was fearing God over Saul.
(2) The Bible encourages us to seek God’s will specific to the circumstances. He wanted Adam and Eve to rely on Him for the knowledge of good and evil. Not try to seek it apart from Him.
Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
First of all, we need to clarify what lying means in the Bible. Lying is not just simply saying something that is not true, but saying something that is not true with the intention of deceiving or harming someone. Lying is a sin because it violates God's character, who is the God of truth (John 14:6; Titus 1:2), and God's commandment, which forbids bearing false witness against one's neighbor (Exodus 20:16; Deuteronomy 5:20). Lying is also harmful to oneself and others, because it breaks trust, damages relationships, and invites judgment (Proverbs 12:22; 19:9; Revelation 21:8).
However, not every case of saying something that is not true is necessarily condemned. Sometimes, saying something that is not true may be justified by a higher moral principle or purpose, such as protecting innocent lives, fulfilling God's will, or advancing God's kingdom. For example, the Hebrew midwives lied to Pharaoh about the birth of the Israelite boys, but they did so to save them from being killed (Exodus 1:15-21). Rahab lied to the king of Jericho about the spies, but she did so to help them escape and join Israel (Joshua 2:1-21). More about this later.
Therefore, we need to examine each case of saying something that is not true in its own context and motive, and see whether it was lying or not. And as you already mentioned in the video that in the case of Abraham and Sarah, they both agreed to saying that Sarah was Abraham's sister, which was technically true, since she was his half-sister (Genesis 20:12). However, they did so with the intention of deceiving the kings of Egypt and Gerar, who might have killed Abraham and taken Sarah as their wife (Genesis 12:10-20; 20:1-18). They did not trust God to protect them and fulfill his promise of giving them a son through Sarah (Genesis 15:1-6; 17:15-21). They also endangered the lives of others, who suffered because of their lie (Genesis 12:17; 20:3-7). Therefore, God condemned Abraham and Sarah for lying, and intervened to rescue them and preserve his plan.
And as you compared it with the case of Samuel and David that, Samuel said that he came to sacrifice to the Lord in Bethlehem, which was true. He did not mention that he also came to anoint David as king, which was also true. However, he did so with the intention of obeying God's command and fulfilling God's will. God had rejected Saul as king over Israel because of his disobedience and rebellion (1 Samuel 15:10-35). God had chosen David as his replacement, and instructed Samuel to go and anoint him (1 Samuel 16:1-13). Samuel feared that Saul might kill him if he knew his mission, so God told him to use the sacrifice as a cover (1 Samuel 16:2-3). Samuel did not lie to anyone, but he withheld some information for a good reason. He also did not harm anyone, but he blessed David and his family with his presence and his anointing. Therefore, God did not condemn Samuel for saying something that was not true, but approved him for doing what was right.
But I think the more complex question to ask is why God didn't condemn the midwives in Egypt and Rahab in Jericho of their lies even though He wouldn't condone it?
I might just add that maybe both the midwives and Rahab weren't aware of God's commandments at the time of their actions. Which would make sense for God's inaction on the matter.
If that makes sense
We should also remember God is all knowing God. He already knows the outcome, and that is why He told Samuel to just say that. He knows the outcome
PERIOD …
“The master commended the dishonest manager for his shrewdness. For the sons of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own generation than the sons of light.”
Luke 16:8
It’s called wisdom.
Then may GOD give it to me in abundance
I did not see where Abraham said, "No." I only saw the he said that she was his sister. So, how did he lie?
What about when David, when asked where he had been, lied to the philistine General or whatever his rank was, and told him he had been killing his own people and looting them
Where did God condemn Abraham for the same thing that He commanded Samuel to do? 2:44 Can anyone please reply with a reference??
its not lieing when you dont reveal all of the truth. but is that what we SHOULD do?
There is a difference to lying for good or lying for evil. And Our fathers commandment states it only applies in a court of law like structure. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. In order to be a witness you witnessed something and this applies to your neighbour. But just in case it is a good practice to be of good standing always.
Thou shalt not bear false witness was aimed primarily at testimony in court but secondarily for day to day relations with others.
Jesus says let your yes be yes and your no be no, which is also day to day relations, but was aimed at people swearing by the Temple or by this or that, implying that if they didn't swear, they could go back on their word.
But as Dennis Prager likes to say, God has common sense. There are certain situations where as a Godly man or woman, you HAVE to lie.
Otherwise, such a strict interpretation of the command not to bear false witness some are supporting in here would mean things like:
* Anne Frank's protectors would have had to tell the Nazis that Anne was in the attic.
* You would have to tell your preschool kids about harsh realities of life long before they're ready, like when they ask about the ugly things they just saw on the 6:00 news.
* Our military would have to tell the enemy where the weakest point is in their defense or where and when they will attack. They would also not be allowed to wear camouflage.
* You would have to tell the rapist which way the woman he is chasing went.
* Cops could not work undercover.
* You couldn't use head, shoulder or other fakes in basketball or any sport. The pitcher would have to tell the hitter the type and location of every pitch he throws.
* Kids cartoons would have to show animals not talking and being friendly but chasing each other down and eating each other alive.
* You couldn't use deception to set up a friend for a surprise birthday party.
* Maybe worst of all, you would have to tell your wife, yes, you do look fat in that dress.
Need I say more?
If during World War II if you had jews your house and the Nazis came to your door. They asked you are there any Jews in the house or if you've seen any nearby would it be justifiable to lie to them?
If God said 1. "Make a sacrifice". 2. "Anoint a new king." Then, if Samuel listed reason number one as his purpose for being in Bethlehem, (TO SAVE HIS OWN LIFE) that is not a lie.
It's like the answer that the rude receptionist (who had just been fired) got from the man who had just fired her: "Why didn't you just tell me that you were my new boss?!?" He replied, "You didn't ask..."
And Jesus also said he was not going to jerusalem but went anyway?
Hi Dr. What church do you attend
I recently learnt from a wise relative that sometimes we need to be just sincere and not honest.
Difference? In Honesty we revealed everything. In Sincerity we choose what information to withhold.
In this case God taught Samuel to be sincere and it is not ungodly to be sincere instead of honest.
God's commandment is "Do not bare falls witness" ..but sadly many Christians take this to mean "do not lie".. however lying can be done even to achieve a good deed or in a manner that is not sinful as with the case of Samuel.. however providing falls testimony ( AKA witnessing ) is a sin cos a person becomes a witness only during legal matters.. so by providing a falls testimony you can actually destroy a person's life, kill or send someone down a path to commit sins unknowingly even as was with the case of Abraham.
I am God, Frank, I command you to help me
Here's one I have a hard time with. 1 Kings 13:1-32
vv 18-19 say
18 The old prophet answered, “I too am a prophet, as you are. And an angel said to me by the word of the Lord: ‘Bring him back with you to your house so that he may eat bread and drink water.’” (But he was lying to him.) 19 So the man of God returned with him and ate and drank in his house.
Question; Why did God not kill the old (lying) prophet instead or also?
Lying is sometimes okay. If someone breaks in your house to kidnap your children and you hid your children in a closet. If the kidnapper asks you if your children are there so he can take them and if they are not there he will leave, you should lie and say the children are not there. Are there any parents reading this going to say they will tell the kidnapper the truth that the kids are at the house?
Reminding of Rahab when she hide the spies on her roof. She lied to the men of her city that the spies already left the city.
Is it OK if god or Jesus lies?
I don't think that's a realistic situation.
@@cnault3244 God and Jesus are incapable of lying.
@@Lukandon Not according to the Bible. The Bible has them lying.
A much better case for lying happens in Exodus 1:18-20, where the midwives (described as fearing God) lie to the Egyptians about why they didn't kill the children and and are subsequently rewarded by God.
This isn't accurate. There is nothing that says God the midwives to lie nor does it say that God rewarded them for lying in the Ex 1:18-20 passage. They were rewarded fearing Him more than Pharaoh for lying. Also, based on the scripture, we have no idea if this was actually a lie about the Hebrew women being more "lively" when giving birth. They could have very well be telling the truth. But even if it were lie, again, God did not reward them for lying. You're insinuating that God rewarded them for their deceitfulness and not their refusal to take innocent lives which is significant. Some translations says God with the Midwives but doesn't say how/what that meant.
Also, it's worth mentioning that the reward given to the Midwives were children of their own which was not typical given their occupation.
In John 21 doesn't The Lamb make it clear that he has greater business than to need to tip off everyone while telling them enough to not destroy their confidence. Jesus, God, does that in John 21
Was Abraham judged though? Or was it those who almost slept with his wife that got judged?
I'll always steer away from lying but in the ten commandments it actually says not to bear false witness against your neighbour. Other scriptures show God's opposition to falsehood more directly though.
Concealing information that others are entitled to know is lying. Samuel, on the other hand, was concealing information that was NOT obligated to be shared.
Furthermore, Samuel had every intention to do EXACTLY what he reported to his inquirers, and actually followed through with it. Ergo, no sin was committed.
Saul was not entitled to God’s revelation to Samuel
In a same way Saul could perceive the sacrifice with his earthly eyes, but not the spiritual act of worship, he could see God anointing a new king, but never really perceive Gods intention for His Will, Israel and indeed the whole world, this was only granted to those God chose
The Thumbnails are always on point
Lk 22:31 1 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”
33 But he replied, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.”
34 Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.”
Matt 28:40 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Couldn’t you men keep watch with me for one hour?” he asked Peter. 41 “Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation.The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
1: He didn't lie.
2: Lying is okay under extreme circumstances like protecting someone's life.
No, that's not biblical sin in any degree is offensive to God and there is no excuse to sin. God always creates better way to protect his people.
@@ridonngandu8290 It absolutely is biblical, look at Rahab
1 Kings 22:19 And Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing beside him on his right hand and on his left; 20 and the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said one thing, and another said another. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ 22 And the Lord said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ 23 Now therefore behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has declared disaster for you.”
Nowhere in Genesis 12 or 20 was any question ever posed.
key was they trembled .Who trembles before the lord the enemy the devil the people who dont believe
God is all powerful why did he create this convoluted approach instead of simply preventing the King from killing the prophet? Would that be taking away free will?
Would you say you answered your own question?😂
@@jordonlongley6576 maybe 🤔 but God does intervene is that not effecting free will?
We're living in a day and age where it's necessary to lie to survive
Better read Roman's chapter 3 verses 5 to 8.
2 Samuel 22
Names of God Bible
David’s Song of Deliverance
22 David sang this song to Yahweh when Yahweh rescued him from all his enemies, especially from Saul.
Depending on the heart condition, a lie is NOT a lie.
when a lie is not a lie?
@@ianbuick8946 When the lie is done for the good of the neighbor of the tribe. The Hebrew midwives lied and saved Hebrew Babies. Read the Bible there are many examples of God believers who lie for the greater good of the tribe.
@@JacksTestimony how to know when it's "greater good"?
@@ianbuick8946 Galatians 5:22-23 (NIV):
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."
This passage from Galatians describes the "fruit of the Spirit," which includes love, kindness, and goodness. It suggests that the Holy Spirit empowers believers to exhibit these qualities in their lives.
Question should a asked was Samuel to sacrifice Saul.
But Abraham did not lie, because she was truly his half sister, but he did obmit that she was also his wife as well.
What about Rahab's lie?
Sorry, I'm having trouble finding where God punishes Abraham for his half truth/lie.
What about this one?????
1 Kings 22:
19Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left.
20And the Lord said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner.
21 *Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’*
22The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, *I will go out AND BE A LYING SPIRIT IN THE MOUTH OF ALL HIS PROPHETS*
And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’
23Therefore look! *THE LORD HAS PUT A LYING SPIRIT IN THE MOUTH OF ALL THESE PROPHETS OF YOURS* and the Lord has declared disaster against you.”
It's blatant and obvious that apologists believe "the ends justify the means".
Because they lie and deceive when it can forward their agenda.
I’m more concerned about Jesus’ brothers saying, ‘go up to the Feast, self-promoter!’ Jesus replied, ‘I don’t go up to this Feast.’
Isn't there something called "lying by omission"? We complain that the news does this. Does "do not bear false witness" only pertain to what is directly asked of you?
While I thought of that question as well, I wonder if that if ‘lying by omission’ is just a man created virtue or rule and not based on any biblical evidence.
@kimz2502 I don't know, but I do know it's hurtful in many ways. Large scale ways too.
It depends on the context, not every omission or concealment is a lie.
@cisuminocisumino3250 I agree, but it could be deceit. And Frank said "it's not lying if you don't reveal all the truth". That's a blanket statement. It would be nice to have clarity. For example, is okay to omit the truth if it's going to help for the good? Is not not okay if it's going to help the evil? That's the kind of stuff I'd like to know.
@@kimz2502
Abraham is accused of being a liar. But, he defended his rhetoric as truth not a lie. The LAWYER asked what is she to you, not, is she your wife? Abraham explained how Sarah was his sister first and FOREMOST before becoming his wife. Lawyers are required to ask specific questions. Abraham told the truth, period. 😎😍👍
"Is Lying Ever Justified in the Bible?"
Yes.
The woman at Jericho lied, and she was rewarded by god for it.
the ironic 😂😂
This feels like splitting hairs to me. Haven't we always been taught that "lying by omission" and telling "half truths" is considered just as much of a lie as telling a full lie? Great, now every man seeing this video will feel justified to do just that because 'according to the Bible" it's OK. As if we don't have to deal with enough lies as it is. 🤦♀️🙄
“Well baby I didn’t lie, I just didn’t tell you I was married and had two kids. Samuel concealed too. I love you.”
Unless one is wise enough to ask the correctly pointed questions, then it is a lie if not answered in due course.
The Abraham example was before the law of Moses was given to the ancient Israelites so that example don't count.
I think Frank is making a good point.
So? Cain also murdered Able before the law was given. It was still wrong.
@@sherlockhomeless7138 I was coming back to that because a lot of scholars believe Genesis was written during the Babylon capacity which would had been after the law was given. I believe Michael Jones says the order of the creation account mirrors the temple which if that's true then it shows that the stories in genesis was influenced after the law of Moses.
The fact that the existence of God's laws were revealed to Israel at Sinai doesn't mean they weren't already being enforced in Abraham's time. Ppl need to understand that God had to reveal the existence of His laws to Israel because they spent years as slaves among heathens and living by their customs. Contrary to what is widely believed even in traditional Christianity, those laws were not invented by anyone at Sinai.
@@theeternalsbeliever1779So do you think you YHWH expected people to follow his laws and that he knew they could be righteous and keep the law? Would god give laws that he knew people couldn't keep?
After all there was a man called James the just for a reason.
If he really did sacrifice for the Lord, then it isn’t a lie. He came to sacrifice and to anoint David. He didn’t mention anointing David so it isn’t a lie. In the Book of Tobit however, the Archangel Raphael blatantly lies 😅 but at the end he tells the truth. Read it, meditate on it, and PRAY ABOUT IT! If it bothers you so much. This is why God throws curve balls in his word. To share his presence with you in his infinite grace.
God did send a lying spirit to the prophets of Ahab in 1 Kings 22, so I'm not sure what the purpose of this is. Is it to say God won't use deception against his enemies? God can and does use deception to deal with his enemies at times. What's wrong with that?
1 Kings 22-19 And Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing beside him on his right hand and on his left; 20 and the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said one thing, and another said another. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ 22 And the Lord said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ 23 Now therefore behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has declared disaster for you.”
Here in the Netherlands, during the second world war, people hid jews in their house, so when they were asked 'Who are those kids in your backyard?' they would say things like 'they are kids of my niece' or some other lie. 'cause the person who asked it, might be a traitor and tell the germans about it. Those were not half lies. It was a straight out lie. But it's really hard to say they shouldn't have done that. I mean, if they had told the truth, would God really miraculously save them?
Of course not.
The Christian God isn't capable of doing anything, it seems
In that situation, a lie is justified. It's called moral hierarchy.
Corrie Ten Boom made an excellent point about lying. Not everyone is entitled to the truth. Nazis were there to murder innocent people, so telling them the truth was paramount to assisting in the murder of the innocent.
That's why Rahab was commended in Hebrews for lying, it's the heart behind it. In my humble opinion, the actual sin was "bearing false witness", which from my understanding, is malicious intent
@@mattslater2603 Ironic that a created life is insulting the life that created it lol, you know nothing Matt, stop commenting on every single comment.