We Built a HP Dyno: Do M12 "1/3 HP" Die Grinders Really Beat Air?
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
- Our lifetime of TOOL RANKINGS now includes Die Grinders: torquetestchan... RA Air grinder: amzn.to/3gQKCHF M12 is currently $152 if you need cordless: amzn.to/3ESsAN... and RA w/ burrs: amzn.to/3gTaYsK
As always Torque who started this channel is working for Astro Tools who's 201 and 204 air die grinders were also included in this testing, though assuming a die grinder is healthy, most 1/3HP die grinders should make around this same power. It's all about durability, gear smoothness and ergonomics after that. So while these air models make more power compared to M12 CORDLESS, they in themselves aren't unusual in that regard.
People with our lifetime tool ranking would have seen Die Grinders added early this week: etsy.me/3G8j3QK It's worth noting that *the efficiency of a motor spun as a generator is NOT close to 100%* , so like with the rest of the testing on this channel with torque, lumens and otherwise, the value will be in the comparisons between tools, which becomes greater as the list is filled out. Also why the title is "Do Milwaukee 1/3 HP Die Grinders Really Beat Air?" and not "Do Milwaukee 1/3 HP Die Grinders Really Make 1/3HP?" Recommend some cordless die grinders we may not have considered below!
As always, Torque who started this channel works in product development for Astro Tools, who also makes the 201 & 204 models in this episode. Not that they make unusually high power compared to most, we find die grinder quality mainly has to do with vibration and durability. Power is usually determined by air motor size. TTC is not the only testing out there, always consider multiple sources when looking at a tool!
I wonder, if you could use something like a MPPT circuit, to get more accurite numbers.
I would say that order of importance in the quality of the tool is durability, power, noise, vibration. Please add sound level to the testing. Some are really unbearable to use. I had a HF die grinder gear box explode on me in less than 10 minutes use. I wouldn't use one again if you paid me to.
I was goin to point out the efficiency. Considering the motor and bearing losses I think that 75% is a good number.
DC motors are actually quite inefficient, I would say 50-60% is a good conservative estimate for peak efficiency and efficiency varies greatly with speed/torque/power output - peak efficiency usually happens at 25% or below of stall torque. I'm not sure if or how any of this changes when the motor is being used as a generator, but I can't imagine it would get better. To get good results, you could keep the DC motor and electronic load but would really need to add some kind of torque sensor - the simplest would be a thin shaft designed to act as a torsion beam with hall effect sensors or encoders at each end. You don't even need very accurate sensors to do this - just measuring the phase difference between the two signals will let you calculate exactly how much the shaft twists under load, and it would be easy to calibrate this setup with a known accurate torque wrench.
Working on a brake dyno as well, we'll see if we can shrink it down for use on smaller power tools as well.
I dig the right angle and after years of cordless I just don't see myself firing up the compressor and dragging out the headphones and air hose.
It's size is hard to argue with, and in some situations does anything you need it to. Just isn't a powerhouse or quite comparable to air yet at this size
@@TorqueTestChannel and price...once youve got the compressor etc and its gonna be running in your shop anyway.......size and tool price have a lot of weight....im a body guy....that compressor will be running for another 20 years at least in the industry.(electrics and plastics dont like paint thinners)
I havent used the compressor in 4 years . Other than for the blow gun. . Cordless have made air tools redundant and a few mains powered tools too.
@@kazzTrismus Right, but you don't just get to write off the cost of anything from the cheapest minimum usable compressor, line, & fittings to a full shop air system with all the bells & whistles. I mean, good luck trying to make an entire collection of cordless tools cost as much as a full shop air system + air tools.
It's literally case dependent
I am unaware of any other use I have for my right angle that is not used in cleaning gasketed surfaces. Being cordless is sooooooo handy in a super tight engine bay.
Have you considered calibrating your dyno against a reference output (e.g. an industrial 1/3hp motor)? This would allow you to compensate for the inefficiencies of the dyno's motor/generator.
Since we are talking high-rpm measurements, a high-speed reference source would be needed... perhaps the reference source could be a duplicate of the dyno motor/generator.
Would love to see at least some attempt at calibration of this setup, although it's definitely not a safe assumption that the motor they're using as a load has linear/equal losses across its RPM range so they'd need to test it at a few different speeds to get a curve. Not hugely important if they end up testing all their tools about the same RPM, but could be a confounding factor if there's a big speed difference between two tools.
Yes, this Dyno needs two main changes:
1. Measure torque directly, not through a DC motors current. Wheatstone bridge load cell for the dyno motor will give a direct torque reading (and can be calibrated).
2. Loading the tools with constant torque, not constant power. This will prevent the sudden drop-off of some tools because the control loop of the battery tester is not actively dressing them down.
Yea I would not trust the actual number that came off this dyno. It's not going to be particularly accurate without calibration of some form.
Should be decently repeatable though and okay for showing that one tool puts more than another.
HUGELY looking forward to drill testing. I have a DCD800 that has been a monster, but would love to see others compared!! Can we still measure drills in beans?
Oh, we'll have torque too. It's going to be grand
Man that 800 looks pretty nice I was looking at getting the dcd708 atomic drill for something compact but I think I'm gonna have to go with the 800 which is barely bigger yet stronger and not much higher cost than the atomic
Yes, Drill testing sounds awesome. Most reviewers just use a torque meter while screwing a big lag into wood. Also would be interesting to test the big 18v die grinders and see where they would stack up compared to air tools of the same rated capacity. I'm liking where this is going TTC.
Test the ryobi, especially with the 9AH because why not.
So glad to see this! I have both Milwaukee's and absolutley love them. The biggest difference for me is when you have parts washer solvent or brake cleaner on you hands from cleaning parts, the cordless electric grinders don't freeze your hands! I hate that about air tools. Also, for what it's worth, Milwaukee says in the directions to only use 2" accessories on these. When you were stalling it grinding the hub I saw you had 3" on it. I use it all the time with 2" Roloc abrasives and it works excellent. The air definitely has more power and better run time but the frozen hands and air hose mean I will never even consider going back to air now that I have these two Milwaukees. That's my $.02 at least. Keep up the great work guys!
Good point about the temp, although composite grinders help a lot in that regard.
I have a lot of m12 tools and some air tools for deburr for aircraft work. Ive been using air tools for years. But have been considering buying the m12 grinders. I only have an 8gal compressor and the way im thinking about it is i could buy the m12 grinders for less than a big quality made compressor. All that depending on how they comparatively perform. If they are really good then it makes sense for me to buy the grinders.
Can't forget about how much quieter they are hah.
@@mgmjferg89 Get the Milwaukee's, I work on race cars and the right angle is essential for quick work.
Yet another means of finding honesty in tool sales, well done guys. Please continue to test more tools as they become available. Brands I'd like to see are IR, Aircat (130* especially), more Astro, truck brands. Thanks for continuing to innovate and bring us great content!
Sunex makes good quality, reasonably priced air tools also Id be interested to see how honest their numbers are on one of these test rigs.
Would also love to see the aircat die grinders tested
Could you throw onto the chart at some point the M12 grinders with the 2.5 / 5.0 "high output" batteries? I know you tested them on the impacts, but a lot of people say that things like the grinders are what those batteries are really made for.
This would be a very good opportunity to test those new high output batteries. From what I’ve seen on the m12 circular saw, that 5.0 is a killer battery
I own air die grinders and the M12 right angle. If I need the sustained power or heavy loads the air tools are the way to go. Since getting the M12 though, it is my go to tool. Takes care of most jobs well and the convenience factor is a win in my opinion. Thanks for sharing!
Pretty much the norm with air. If you need to run all day in a work station air is the way to go. Plus they are simple, light, reliable and cheap. At home I have both but honestly use my battery tools more and take them with me lots of places. At work though air is king. At my old job we had 3hp air grinders (good ones like Atlas Copco) and that thing was lighter and smaller than any electric grinder yet had more than double the power. It would run non stop for hours. The tool would get COLDER the harder you worked it. Ice would even form around the ehxaust. If heat kills then this thing was self healing 🤣. But it seriously does add to an air tools life when everything runs cool.
Hey guys thanks 4 another top quality review/info video. I have had the m12 right angle 4 2 years and mine never cuts out. Mostly use 2 inch rolocs, scotch pads and red ceramic 60g sanding but also have dies 4 it. On the video it looks like your using 3 inch, it says in the instructions 2 inch max. Im interested 2 see if the hp batteries make a difference, thanks again.
You should have tried this with the 5ah M12 High Output, I can tell a massive difference in the 5ah xc and 5ah HIgh Output in tools like cutoff tool and oscillating tools. It’s amazing the High Output batteries really do deliver more chooch to the tool!
I used a friend's 90° that had the high output batteries and it seemed like it had as much power as my air powered matco. It was hard to bog.
Don't you mean the 6.0 XC? They don't make a 5.0 XC. I have both but haven't had a chance to use the 5.0 HO so I'm looking forward to that.
Have you factored the spindle motor efficiency into the power ratings?
Im kind of curious to see what that HO 5ah battery would do for those die grinders :o
My HF right angle cheap one doesn’t sound like yours does it’s smooth no rocks perhaps you should get a different one lol. Mines few years old no issues.
I'd definitely be interested in the Ryobi die grinder because a) I'm already in their battery ecosystem, and b) it'd be interesting to see if they upped the power for the 18v
I'm predicting much better results with the Ryobi. The Milwaukee M12 die grinder is useless.
I got the ryobi die grinder, and am extremely happy with it. I've only had it stall once, when I pushed it way beyond what it was designed to do. Theres no chance in hell you can stall it with just a finger like the milwaukee's unless youre the literal hulk. The bulky battery can, in rare cases, be an issue, but 99% of the time its not(i work on vehicles, so plenty of tight cumbersome spaces).
I'd love to see the ryobi on this new dyno though, I think it would fare pretty good... Definitively better than the milwaukee's at the very least..
I still want the Milwaukee grinders so bad. They are just so convenient it's worth it. I just wish they were cheaper.
My Harbor Freight die grinders have taken a beating over the years, but yeah they kinda suck and take a lot of time.
I just got turned on to your channel a few days ago and really like what you're doing. Subscribed!
How about one on the difference between "high flow" air quick connects vs standard units of the same size? Torque/H.P. gains with die grinders and impacts? That would be cool to see.
Keep up the great content!
This would work with drywall saws (Rotozip etc) as well.
Same with palm routers, and plunge routers if they have 1/4” shanks.
I had good experience with the right angle die grinder but the straight one seems to have much less power for some reason 🤔
You must know that your dyno "watts" are ignoring the fact that it isn't 100% efficient as a generator. That dyno efficiency will have a significant curve to it.
@@fluke196c I'm honestly not sure if that would be a valid method of calibration because the "calibration" motor would need to be performance characterized as well.
I'm quite familiar with performance characterization of brushless motors but not nearly as much about brushed but I suspect it is probably similarly complex.
@@fluke196c They're not. The efficiency of the "dyno" motor changes with rpm/voltage/temperature/etc. It is a complex problem.
I have been using my Makita DGD800Z for close to 10 years and I have been happy with its performance. It cant be to bad as it is still the same brushed unit on sale today as it was in 2013. The beauty of the bigger cordless units like this is they run fast without freezing your hands and not being tied to a hose that gets in the way. 25K for actual grinding and not 8k for running a cutter. Worth a test if you know some one who has one?
Excellent insight for air tools I would only add a couple of brands Daewoo and Fuji as decent quality.
Looks like you could use the rig for testing angle grinder HP outputs.
Pneumatic and cordless examples. M14 nut to 1/4" shaft and a M10 to 1/4" shaft would get you hooked up to 90% of the grinders on the market. Although with some that rate up to 2000 Watts that motor might be a bit small. Same deal with Circular saws testing shaft power although the connections are no where as universal as angle grinders. In my experience there are huge differences between cordless angle grinders with quite a few only deserving of being angle sanders.
If anything I would consider a noise category as well. Great test rig though, I look forward to more tests.
Only reason I suggest a noise category is because the new guy at the shop is deaf I guess. He uses the cheapest tools he can find, and between his astro die grinder and his astro belt sander it makes your ears want to cry. Definitely a category worth mentioning when you work with someone like that.
The problem I don’t like with electric die grinders is control. Air tools can be controlled better especially when porting cylinder heads. Also air tool grinders are easier to put in smaller places because they are smaller.
The New M12 High Output Xc 5.0 Batteries from what I noticed give more power to these die grinders over the XC 6.0 would be cool to see what i feel by using them on the chart down the road comparing the 6.0 to the HO 5.0 @Torque Test Channel
Great testing! I used to be jealous of the m12 right angle, until I borrowed my co-workers one time. I was disappointed. The overload protection is way too sensitive, you can barely even remove gaskets with it.
It's actually one of the reasons for making the channel, same scenario. Used a co-workers who loved it and then after using was convinced he had never used air for any length of time to compare as it was just stopping constantly until you "learned" how to use it, aka a light touch always. Which he said was just a quirk of cordless, but to me reminded me of really weak air grinders with low air pressure. Looked up the specs of the tool and said it was higher than what I was already using and rolled my eyes. It's taken me a couple years to come up with a dyno that reflects that with just numbers and no opinions.
Yep they're garbage. I don't know how anyone doesn't return it as defective immediately after the first use.
@@TorqueTestChannel It’s meant for 2” wheels not 3” wheels as you have shown. It’s directly on their website. I haven’t had a problem with 2” rol-locs.
Using 2” wheels (Milwaukee says don’t use 3”) I’ve had it cut out on me a couple times at speed 4, but only once at 3. It does everything I need it to do, it’s quiet, and it’s convenient.
@@Leonarco333 interesting. That would make sense, I was using a 3 inch wheel. A 2 inch would take a lot less torque
If you have any questions about your new dyno's horsepower, modify it to detect the torque that the generator (motor) is putting out and multiply that by the RPM to get accurate horsepower
Yes, and they should question the numbers as the generating DC motor is no where near 100% and its actual efficiency lands on a very "peaky" efficiency curve. So, unless the output is corrected back to the efficiency curve, the numbers are almost meaningless even as a comparison, unless the speeds are the same. This is why Speed/Torque is the standard.
I suggest adding a size/weight category. So then you'll have a power to weight ratio, no matter if it's cordless, corded, or air. I know you have the displacement category but weight could help with operator fatigue. I worked in the finishing department of a manufacturing company thats why I suggest this.
I have 3 Milwaukee right angle die grinders and 2 of the straight they are by far my most used M12 tools OF all time I love the piss out of then they are amazing @Torque Test Channel
I have the right angle Milwaukee. It’s ok, nothing special. I usually keep a cutoff wheel, or small wire wheel on it. That’s about all it’s good for is a quick use where rolling out an air hose is unnecessary. Maybe y’all could try some of the JET brand of die grinders I’ve been looking at getting their 1 HP models but haven’t pulled the trigger yet. They look very similar to the snap on ones.
TTC, using this constant power load could be improved upon. Try starting the tool with no load and slowing increasing the amps. You can plot this against rpm and get a power curve.
i would like to see more compared .that 18v makita is bigger but still worth seeing the specs .
I haven’t watched the video I am going to guess the m12 underperforms. I bought one as soon as they were released and it’s one of my favourite tools but it also pisses me off immensely.
Test the Makita for sure. It would be interesting if it out-competes air or not.
I would like to see the $30 pencil grinders on Amazon versus cordless Dremel.
Also cordless ryobi die grinder.
The efficiency of that spindle motor being run as a generator will be nowhere near 100%, so you are under-reporting the power output of the tools. I'd estimate you are looking at an efficiency somewhere in the 70-80% range.
It's not too surprising those Milwaukee die grinders struggled with the small batteries. At 150 Watts (reported, real power higher as above) the motor is going to be pulling 14 Amps or more which is a big ask for a continuous draw from a single 18650.
could this set up work to test rotary tools (Like Dremel) ? Maybe even include power loss using a flexible shaft. Amazon has a ton, Miliwaukee makes one , Craftsman i believe has or had on. Just a thought,,,,
I've been thinking of making a dyno for testing corded drills, measuring the input power (voltage and current) and the output power at the chuck. The problem with measuring output power by driving a motor is you need to know the efficiency of said motor at any given rpm. A better way would be to measure output rpm and torque, but it's not easy to measure torque.
I have both m12 die grinders but they are about useless for any serious work. They are good thread repair tools and for cutting off small bolts, but they do their best work draining batteries faster than Usain Bolt in the 100m sprint.
Cordless is nice in some areas but I don’t think it’s there yet, and definitely not for $200 per tool.
~33 YEARS ago when I started off being a parts guy at a large tool import company, we had right angle die grinders that were (in appearance) identical to the central pneumatic one there! I'd lay you good odds the parts are still interchangeable!
Pretty much all 1/4HP aluminum body RA die grinders look like this. Very big differences in quality and price though
@@TorqueTestChannel - oh by all means! It's just crazy that after decades, the outward appearance hasn't changed at all.
does that electronic load have usb or serial or anything inputs, you can probably make it do a ramping load from 0w to 300w in 1w per second steps for a bit snazzier graph also as for more powerful spindles, router motors are often brushed, rated for at least 1kw and run to 30000rpm, also a simple three phase full bridge rectifier can turn a brushless motor into a dc generator and then skys the limit for input power
Im really excited about this rig, my main hobby is micromobility devices like ebikes and onewheels, ive already learned a ton from your channel and the hall sensor got me more amped than I expected. So excited to see what yall do with it in the future
Would be neat to see the ryobi, it's not small, or convenient but it's usually better than dragging a hose out or running a giant grinder for light use. I suspect the battery will make a big difference and with the dizzying amount of options it might be tricky. I run mine mostly on a 2ah lithium+ on low on low speed to clean up surfaces, If I'm prepping an area for welding or something I'll put some variation of 4ah for more runtime; I know the air tool will probably last longer, but it also runs the compressor, is loud, and makes my hands cold.
I had bad luck with the right angle HF's, almost all of the cheap ones failed, a few years ago they changed the design a bit and I just haven't seen them hold up since. I usually use an astro now, it's had a few hundred hours at least and is still fine.
Air tools do seem to have more controllability if working on delicate surfaces since restrictors and air pressure can be modulated. This can make it easy to stall them, but better than burning a hole in a panel trying to remove a bit of material.
Wow a new dyno, very exciting!
May I add some observations as an ee. I see you were looking for a dc generator, but ac one (with magnets on the rotor) would also work probably with just a simple 3ph full bridge rectifier on the output, before the load.
Also bear in mind that generator has some losses, up to 20% since it is a dc motor so you can take those into account for true power numbers but it is not necessary for just the relative comparison.
Thank you!
Hey thanks. Yes relative comparison is the name of the game on this channel!
@@TorqueTestChannel can't wait to see more, thanks 👍
@@TorqueTestChannel To add to this, the efficiency curve of the generator is absolutely not linear, i.e. you might measure 80% of one tool making 100W at 3krpm, but just 60% of another tool making the same power at 6krpm which makes the latter look worse, even though they're equal.
Measuring actual torque or calibrating this setup would really benefit it.
Mounting the generator housing free to rotate (i.e. in a big bearing) and mounting a digital torque meter on the end to hold it would be one way to give a much more linear and calibrated reading
That load cut off on the m12 stuff is annoying especially on the cut off tool, it seems to to it all the time even when trying to be gentle.
I have had terrible luck with Milwaukee's M12 straight die grinder, maybe I'm just too rough on them but I was only able to get through 30 ports on cast iron heads before the head started to separate and the collet seized. Thinking porting and polishing is going to require a corded die grinder
Surprised you got that far without overheating.
There were breaks in between for changing carbides, stones, and various sanding implements as well as measuring cross sectional area of the bow
How about hooking up some routers and see if the claimed horsepower matches up with your findings? I mean they’re essentially oversized die grinders, right?
Sounds like an awesome idea.. I'd like to see drills as well
It remind me those battery angle grinder.... useless. It die after 2min,it die after any load beside grinding air... It die at any actual work you will try to do
I've put a couple hours runtime on the little HF. Mine is holding so far. For daily or production use i agree, get something nicer. For me grinding a weld a few times a year, seems ok.
I've really gotten a lot of use out of that right angle. Its been a peach. Not sure how it will do in the rankings but I know I will still love it regardless.
I use mine all the time. The convenience is amazing and it’s so much quieter than air.
I like the cheap hf right angle grinder, have had one for 6 years, always sounds bad. I vote to test all grinders!
Battery die grinders need an easy to motor overload indicator at the least.
I would return those Milwaukee's if they cut out like that.
I've got both die grinders and assuming your not grinding the rust off a dozer blade or using a burr bit to cut 1/2" plate, they're perfect (cleaning gasket surfaces, using a burr to cleanup pin bushing bosses etc)
I could not agree more. They do everything I need them to do, they do it well, and they do it much more quietly without working around an air hose.
Would be interesting to see the new Ryobi right angle grinder, and whether 18v is really giving an advantage. It'll get dinged on size of course.
This was an awesome video! A lot of people, myself included, have had the 3" attachments defeat the m12 die grinder. They do excel with the 2" attachments however!
Milwaukee does say not to use 3 inch disks though because of the increased rotational inertia stalling the tool. With 2” rolocs I haven’t had any trouble.
I’d like to see the ryobi brushless right angle18v
Do the m12's make more power at a lower rpm if you put them on setting 1?
I have the snap on straight die grinder if you are interested thanks from Mark
Thanks for exposing these M12 Die Grinders. They're the only Milwaukee tool I consistently get frustrated at.
Agreed. Don't know how they ever made it past that testing phase at Milwaukee.
I'd love to see more air tools on here. I use air grinders all day for my job (deburring aluminum parts). The tools provided by the company work good but they have definitely seen better days so eventually I'd like my own set if I decide to stay for awhile. Top 3 things I would love to know would be Vibration, Comfort in Hand and heavy use reliability. For right angle grinders, the heights between the top of the grinder and the bottom of the grinding wheel would be great to know as well. Somethings I can't use the right angles in certain areas because they are too tall which forces me to use a half tapered roll of sandpaper which takes far longer to remove machine marks than using a disc on a grinder would. It also leaves more room for error as it's easier to keep a flat surface with the discs.
Another Thought to add to this ranking for die grinders specifically would be decibels, I know that's a big thing in my shop and a huge factory when purchasing a die grinder
Absolutely. The m12 isn’t as powerful, but it’s plenty powerful enough for what I need and it’s so much quieter than air. Combine that with not working around the air hose and it’s a big win for me.
I recently got both the straight and angled milwaukee die grinders and am pretty disappointed in their power. They go in to protection mode constantly, but seem like they may be getting a little better as I've used them for a while.
Yep very common. I had to return both if mine. They couldn't even handle removing gasket material from a water pump face.
I would like to see the Ryobi 1/4 right angle die grinder. I choose it over the Milwaukee for the price even though its way bulkier
It's also better I think.
I'd like to see some higher end air tools tested like "DYNABRADE".
in Aerospace we use a tons of Dynabrade air tools and they are crazy high end.
Good starting analysis of 'spinning tools'. I test larger (mill/lathe) motors and controllers with a homemade 'dyno' consisting of a large metered (volts/amps) DC motor tied to a large variable resistive load so I can measure torque/HP at different motor speeds up to 2 HP continuous. I consider usable torque to be more important than horsepower (torque x RPM) but when dealing with high speed tools , HP might be a better standard since low speed torque is almost non-existent with die grinders and air tools.
The standard way to do this test would be to measure RPM and use a load cell on an arm of known length (could be a simple digital scale) to measure torque. Motor/generator efficiency is no longer a factor and results are objective instead of relative.
Awesome testing, always pushing the bounds of testing!
If you haven't already you may want to look into balancing that dyno with a wheel weight or somthing. The magnet on the one side looks like it is causing a lot of vibrations.
Regardless nice new setup!
We did balance it by drilling out material. The tools weight can make it unbalanced, some tools it sings. Zero vibration
@@TorqueTestChannel optical sensor?...smaller magnet?...both?
pull the cover off and read off the fan blades?..laser?
I have the milwaukee right angle and I love the convenience of it but it does have it's limitations. It's a good tool but could be better.
My air keeps going and going a battery doesn’t
Instead of reading the power from the generator, you could use it just as adjustable load -- read the torque. You could have a torque transducer on the shaft, or you could mount the generator "floating" and then weigh the force at the end of a a cross member of known length. We used to have a commercial torque tester built with an eddy current brake and a round plate where we hung concentric weights off-axis. Three weights, 3 scales. The rotation was limited to 90 degrees. The brake torque was set with a DC current, manually, based on the speed display of the motor we were testing. That means we were reading the speed indicator (digital counter) and adjusted the eddy current brake until the desired speed resulted. Then we read the torque from the scale on the round plate. It worked quite well, until during one move we lost its collection of accessories and shaft adapters.
I would be curious to see the Milwaukee right angle with the new high output 5.0 battery I have found just by feel that it out performs and stays cooler than my xc4.0 I don’t have a 6.0 to compare to however
You should put decibels on the chart as well
I own that angle die grinder and mine runs a carbide burr just fine, but if I put a mini cutoff disc or mini wire wheel on it after a few seconds it just shuts off/quits. I swapped out the tool with a new one thinking it was defective but the new one works the same.
Please do one of the old fashioned corded or M18 die grinders. Another great video as always!
I've also got a 10+ yr old HF die grinder I'd send if you wanted to test an old one
Will Dremel and clones be seen any time soon?
Any opinion on the M12 Bandfile?
It would have been very interesting to measure the V and A going into the grinders and comparing the Wattage with what came out of the dyno gen.
I liked this video.. my cats did not.
I wonder how efficient that spindle motor is? It's a brushed motor and they are never particularly efficient! 60-70% efficient is pretty common! Brushed motors are quite lossy due to brush resistance, heating and arcing at the brushes. You'll get much less watts on your load tester than is actually being produced if you don't know the efficiency of the spindle motor. Also, as the commutator gets cruddy with oxidization, it's resistance will go up and then the spindle motor becomes even less efficient. I think you really needed to use a water cooled brushless spindle motor so efficiency is MUCH less of an issue and won't change longer term. Some Schottky diodes across the 3 phases to convert that AC into DC will let you read the wattage of the brushless spindle motor easily. The diodes are very low loss and usually the spec sheets will tell you this information so you can add it back to what the load tester displays. You might even luck out and get a brushless spindle motor that lists its efficiency. You can also test it and find out. Run it on it's inverter and measure the amp draw of the system sitting still. Now run it through its RPM range and measure amp draw. Under no load, you are seeing only system losses. This can then be added back into what your load tester displays to get real wattage generated for the dyno tests.
Man I love this channel. I don't even use half this stuff, have all Ryobi stuff at home and def not a pro, but I just love this stuff!
I once tested drives for Baldor Motors and Drives. That motor dyno is a good idea 💡. Only precautions would be hot 🔥 back to back testing and overheating/stressing the dyno motor. Keep up the good work.
This 800W motor never even got warm from these luckily
I know you guys ran a test on the high output batteries for Milwaukee last month. Your conclusion was that at the time the motors were not capable of drawing more than what the six amp hour could provide. Honestly curious if the five amp hour high output would make any difference on motors like this with the direct drive that you mentioned in that last video.
Would love to see the *classic* IR 301B (90*) or 307B (straight) air grinders. In my mind they're the benchmark in the small form factor stuff like that HF 1/4hp is trying to be. It seems IR doesn't spec horsepower but rather in kW, which they rate at .19 for both.
If you plan on doing cutoff tools too, I've always wondered how much of a penalty extended-neck tools like the Mac ATQP40EA get for the length mechanism.
I would also like to see IR models, along with the HF Chief models that should closely compete with them.
I'd be interested in seeing an air fitting comparison on an impact or other air tool. Our shop uses milton a-style fitting but I'd be interested in seeing how much power we're losing vs v-style.
Why you gotta do me dirty Harbor Freight?! Love the new series.
As an owner of many corded Milwaukee angle grinders, seeing them produce such lackluster battery powered die grinders like this is truly shameful. But i guess thats what happens when you get bought out by a big multinational conglomerate who then ships all those American jobs off to China. Everyone loves battery tools until they have to replace the batteries. I just spent $180 on two 6Ah Makita batteries for my Makita drill/driver set. Considering they normally cost $240 for 2 batteries, it seemed like a good deal... I guess that's what they want you to believe.
Nice addition to the channel. Looking forward to see some 1HP die grinders such as the two from Capri.
Milwaukee states “max accessory 2” “ you’re using a 3” sanding disc. They do work best with a 2” sanding pad. Larger wheels or accessories require more torque.
Measuring the watts is not really a great way to do this due to inefficiencies of the DC motor working as a generator, and that motor efficiency changing at different speeds and loads. The generator should be mounted on bearings or a pivot, with a torque arm pushing on a load cell. So you would measure the RPM and Torque being developed. Then you can directly calculate the horsepower being produced without the efficiency of your "generator" mattering.
Please test 5HP SIOUX air tools ( Snap-ON) vs. Electro equivelant.
Is there a benefit to the air or electric tool? Weight, power consumption, ease of use?
Large companies use these tools, and have even had issues with their power relating to ear protection issues.
PS: DO AIR TOOL MUFFELERS ADVERSALY EFFECT AIR TOOL POWER OUTPUTS???!?!?!?1//1/?~!?~!?~!BBBQ
as always, mucho appreciatado
Great job! Thank you for the informative, not boring tests/reviews. ...and with just enough sarcasm to make the dry data more palatable! Would love to see a test of the BOSCH GWG12V-20SN 12V
As an aside, I've used a CHIEF BRAND STRAIGHT MINI DIE GRINDER using shop air (110/90 psi, 10^10 CFM) and it is a beefy little git! I think it would be a better fit for your testing as the bevel gear will undoubtedly rob you of some HP!
(although maybe the right angle die grinder may have a stronger motor......... so what if you swapped a straight head onto it for a comparison ??????????????????)
How long would a battery last at 130 watts? 2S configuration at 3AHr capacity is 21 watt hours. So then, at 130 watts, this thing would last less than 9 minutes. Just some math to think about when using these tools.
If you are measuring watts into your battery tester you are assuming your dc router motor/generator is 100 percent efficient.
It's probably around 75 to 80 percent efficient.
What I don't understand is why you include "Volume Displacement" ? That is not going to help me decide which tool to buy. Weight is. 9 out of 10 times, I'll use my M12 3/8th drill vs my Snapy 18 V 1/2" vs my corded Milwaukee 1/2" drill, which is the only drill I lend out, I don't use it any more. Call it Fatigue Factor or something like that. Total weight with battery.
Other then that, you guys are doing a fantastic job !
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speaking of air tools something that people don't understand about compressors . ALL compressors are rated by INPUT CFM not OUTPUT. they make it confusing by saying 10 cfm at 90 psi . it means 10 cfm input when it is pumped up to 90 psi NOT 10 cfm OUTPUT at 90 psi. when a compressor runs at zero psi it will suck in a little more air than when it is at 90 psi due to pumping losses. but it is NEVER output cfm EVER. if it was 10 cfm output at 90psi that would be like 70 cfm of air at atmospheric pressure input . that's impossible because the volume of the compressor can't ingest that much air.
For the RPM in the chart, I'd suggest at least putting a "K" beside the numbers so we remember that they're in thousands of RPM's
Thanks. Am thinking of getting one of these Red, right angle die grinders. Air is compact etc, but has a number of drawbacks of noise, cost of compression etc. Also, air is very pressure sensitive; very fast on load load, but this quickly drops with pressure. I note you found the battery ones to bog, too. There's some small advantages in air, but I think much of the future (and present) is battery.
I'd love to see more of the higher-end air tools tested. To the theme of this video, perhaps the CP875? And more generally, the top-tier offerings from Chicago Pneumatic, Ingersoll Rand, AirCat, Astro, Pneumatic, et cetera...