NA/NB Suspension Interchange (FM Live)
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- Опубликовано: 4 сен 2024
- Wondering what NB suspension parts you can use on your NA Miata? or even vice versa? This week on FM Live, Keith covers the interchangeable suspension parts between the NA & NB cars.
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Original live video recorded 7-30-20. Join us on Facebook every Thursday at 2:00 PM Mountain Time for new live content! This is a quick overview video to inform our customers, and is not intended to be a guide or installation tutorial of any kind.
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The only reason I installed NB shock mounts on my NA shocks was because I wanted to improve my cornering while changing lanes 😉
Really enjoy your presentations. Thank you
I bet you have forgotten more than we would ever know about this platform
Love these videos! So informative and helpful! Please do a video on interchangeable parts between ND and NC/NA.
Super helpful video! I bought a 99 sport package (sans engine) earlier this summer and did a total front and rear subframe and drivetrain swap on my ‘92 1.6, and while I did it mostly for the 4.3 torsen and the bilsteins, I figured I might as well swap the rest of the subframes and suspension while I was at it. One thing I that I learned from your video was that I might need to look into my front sway bar now, I used the NB bar in my 1.6, and I noticed the links didn’t seem to be as vertical as they should be, thanks to your video I now know why. I may be buying a new FM front bar soon xD. Two things you didn’t mention that I had to do involved some tomfoolery to get the nb steering rack splines to fit with the NA steering column, which I counted and seemed to be different number between the two cars (I totally disassembled and properly depowered the nb power steering rack because my engine didn’t have a PS pump). The other thing was that I had to drill and tap two holes in my car to attach the rear subframe braces properly, which you didn’t mention as a complication with swapping rear subframes. Other than that, awesome video! I thought I knew everything there was to know about NA and NB parts interchange after that swap, but even I learned some new and helpful stuff, thank you guys!
If your car had rear subframe brace mounting points on the tub, the NB units would have been able to bolt up. It's only the cars that never had a rear subframe brace that need the extra holes. On the "Martini" race car in the video - a 1994 - the NB braces bolted up which is why I forgot to mention it.
I don't think I've come across a difference in spline count on the steering racks. There are some differences in the tie rods between manual and power racks, so you have to match those. I don't recall about NA vs NB tie rods, unfortunately.
Flyin' Miata ahhh that makes sense. I didn’t know any of the NA cars had rear subframe braces that extended to the tubs, but I do know Mazda changed around their subframe braces a lot from year to year, somewhat irrespective of generation refreshes lol. And I didn’t mess with the tie rods, I keep all the nb steering rack parts separate from NA parts. It was just the U joints connecting the rack to the steering column that I had trouble with. I couldn’t count the splines perfectly on the U joint side, but I had to mutilate it somewhat to get the joint to mate to the NA6 column. Ultimately I had to weld it (along with some other bits inside the rack because power steering delete) to keep it from skipping 😬 luckily I had a friend who was much more skilled than me with a tig welder to fix it up beautifully, since it’s kind of an important safety thing.
please make a video of exchangeable things between all generations NA to ND, would be a very interesting video..
Lug nuts. You can use the same lug nuts on all generations. But you need more of them for an NC.
@@FlyinMiataVideo Door bushings as well? I did mix and match my shiftknob too...
Fantastic info, thanks for making this video.
Hi and thanks heaps for a great review. I have major league challenge for you, if you'll accept it:-) No doubt you've heard of the (in)famous NA Miata deceleration buzz, grind noise. Typically reported in 2,3,4 (rarely in 5th) from high revs down to about 2.3K rpm. Goes completely when cluth is disengaged. Cant be reproduced on jack stands. Commonly reported after a clutch change, but not always, and no connection to a clutch type or light flywheel (though light flywheel is sometimes blamed, but it happens with stock also). Typical attempted fixes include PPF reset/realign, oil change, oil viscosity increase, heat shields secured, exhaust changed, clutch changed. Some have changed diffs, gearboxes, and even had a customer rebuild of the spring rate on the clutch pressure plate (apparently it worked!) On maybe 10% of the occasions in all attempted fixes, the owner reports success. Most of the time the noise, mysteriously, persists. Here is a link to the a good eg of the noise ruclips.net/video/OsBEgCbG-y4/видео.html.
What does Flyin Miata know about this noise? What is the Cause? Mostly, what is the Fix!!!
We are quite aware of the noise. It's definitely worse with a light flywheel, which is why our flywheels contain that warning. The reason you can't duplicate it on jack stands is because it's only present when you are decelerating and there's some load on the trans.
It's internal to the trans. Probably a bit of extra tolerance in a bearing. But the thing is that it doesn't seem to be an indicator of actual longevity, so we've never really paid much attention to it. It's just a noise, not a problem.
@@FlyinMiataVideo I'm relieved to hear you say that, and it aligns with my suspicion. My view: It justifies playing a little with judicious doses of friction modifier and shandying incremental does of a higher viscosity oil to a point that retains cold shift ease.
My theory, for what it's worth and to help those many who are interested/concerned: characteristics indicate output shaft bearing.
1. Noise absent in 1st because of relatively low output rpm.
2. Noise present in 4th, which downgrades likelihood of a Countershaft bearing.
3. Noise absent in neutral tends to rule out input shaft bearing (though torque is also removed).
4. Noise mostly absent in 5th indicates lower reverse torque on decel acting on output bearing.
5. Noise absent with clutch disengaged as all torques stresses are removed.
No explanation for why it's almost always only on decel.
I have had Chassis Ears all over the box: noise loadest at Extension Housing right where brass bushing for prop shaft yoke is located. There is zero oil leak at seal and no play in yoke. I think this is transmitted noise along output shaft. Noise is present, about half as loud, at output bearing housing. Not significantly audible at bell housing; not audible at diff, or exhaust structures.
Interestingly, the almost identical RX-7 box includes a hefty Dynamic Damper located just after the output shaft bearing. No explanation found for Mazda's thinking on this damping addition to the M526 box.
Very happy for anyone to correct my thinking overall, especially FM;-).
It would be great to put this internet ghost to sleep.
Good thing about the nb lower spring mount is that you can chop that bad boy for the cheap lows. Mazdsprings trimmed 1/2 a coil gets the NB sitting pretty nice. 🤣
Super helpful, thanks!
Also, please let us know what are the differences between NA manual rack and NB manual rack. The geekier the better 😁
The only thing Mazda mentions in the Service Highlights documents is the improved mounting of the NB rack and a very slightly increased ratio (3.17 turns instead of 3.36 for the same rack stroke). Given the improvements in feel, I suspect there was some subtle massaging of the actual rack and pinion themselves. Or maybe it came from that extra caster - because you have to use the NB rack with the NB subframe, you can't really separate the two factors.
Towards the beginning when you are referencing uprights in the rear nb suspension what exactly are you referring to? Sorry if this is is a repeat question..
The cast iron piece that contains the hub and is connected to the control arms.
Hi , the plastic bag of yellow bump rubbers ....well you said you will get back to that later.....so if my stock black ones have turned to dust .... should I update to yellow ?
I'm trying to find the best setup for my 95 Miata.. daily driver/ street build/ autocross once or twice a year/ spirited driving
Keith, great video, thanks! I want to replace my front lower control arms, question about the single tab on the replacements. Can I use my Whiteline adjustable sway end links that are currently on my NA with the single tab NB mounting flange? They were pretty pricey and I really dont want to replace them unless I absolutely have to do so. They have less than 1000 miles on them!
If they are a ball joint style end-link, you should be able to use them. If they are a NA bushing style end-link, then you will want to upgrade to a newer ball joint style end-link.
bull. i put complete bilstein mb into my na and it sat about an inch higher. i replaced na bilstein in my 93 le.
For the complete front end swap from NB into an NA does the steering rack pinion shaft spline mate directly to the NA steering column junction or is adaptation required, thanks.
No adapters are required.
We asked around the shop on this one and found out that some had issues and others didn't. Looking into the parts fiche, the lower joint at the rack has one part number for '91-97 and another for 98-05. Sorry, I guess we can't say for sure since we've experienced it both ways.
@28.52 you talking about collapsing the upper mount for NA suspension and lowering the car without loosing compression travel. have you looked more into that?
We have not, alas.
@@FlyinMiataVideo :'(. Are you going too at any point?
Great video! I have a full NB Flyin' Miata setup in my NA for one of the exact reasons you mentioned. A friend with an NB replaced his low miles used FM Spring, Tokiko shocks, and NB tophats combo for a set of coil-overs. So I got a great deal on more suspension performance than I will ever need! Am I correct in my assumption that this set up of NB parts on an NA sits a little higher than a proper Native Flyin' Miata NA setup? I feel that it does just from looking at photos of other cars, but it actually worked out perfect as with the height I am currently at I still qualify for collector car plates and insurance in my area! Thanks for all the stuff you do! My Flyin Miata suspension and frame rail braces have transformed and refreshed the old girl just perfectly!
Thanks for the kind words!
About the only reason it might sit higher is due to an NA being (on average) a bit lighter than an NB. But the thing to do is actually measure the ride height, as pictures can be misleading. For example, Mazda loads up the car with sandbags when they're taking product photos so it sits lower :)
@@FlyinMiataVideo Ahaha interesting good to know, that would make sense especially as my NA is a 1.6 car, with no AC, and no PS, probably on the lighter side of an OEM-ish NA. Maybe I need to pack a few sandbags the next time I go out taking photos of my car ;) As much as it would look "cool" to be a little lower, the handling and usability at the current height are phenomenal, so I couldn't care less if the "stance" kids call it a monster truck!
Thank You for some more Great info!!! I'm about to buy subframes for my NA and was going to switch the rear to a NB sub, but was going to retain the NA sub, but now I'm not sure. I am planning on de-powering a NA rack and bought some neat breather bolts from K-Miata, as well as de-powering plugs from someone (can't remember). What would Keith do??? and why???
Keith isn't a big fan of depowered racks generally. He runs power steering on his track car because there's no point in fighting the car - and it was originally built to be an all-day rally car anyhow. This is not a popular opinion, but you asked...
For the front, generally the improved geometry is enough reason to go with the NB rack/subframe/uprights/upper control arms. But you have to do it all, so if you're going to depower an NA rack that means everything else will remain NA up front.
The only reason to run an NB rear subframe is if you want access to the NB rear braces and you're prepared to deal with the incorrectly placed exhaust hanger.
@@FlyinMiataVideo Thank You So Very Much for your help on this 1st of all!!! Is the exhaust hanger an easy fix with a welder?
I want to clean up as much as possible in my engine compartment. My 1st car (sadly was a 1974 SS Nova with No Power Steering), 1974 was a horrible year for cars, but I LOVED IT! So depowering does sound good to me. Is depowering an NA rack different than an NA or is it a big deal? Are the steering rack plugs the same size (M16X1.5)? I'm talking , about the 2 big ones. Insidently the company is KAi that I bought the plugs from, Not KMiata.
Again thank You for your help. FYI, I do have a long list of expensive parts I will be buying from FM in the future, so your input will pay off in the long run as I plan on the BIG MAMA JAMA Brakes and FOX suspension as well as the BIG Fuel kit and other miscellaneous parts!
@@christianzinn7636 Exhaust hanger is a very easy fix if you have a welder.
There were running changes in the design of the racks so the procedure for depowering does vary. You'll have to ask your vendor about the steering rack plug sizes, that's not something we deal with.
When installing the koni shocks do you have to drill out the upper metal and rubber on the nb shock mounts?
You need to drill out the top and bottom washers. Here is a link to our instructions.
www.flyinmiata.com/support/instructions/suspension/NB%20Koni%20suspension%20kit.pdf
So if one were to swap in NB shocks/springs/top hats into their NA this would produce no (real) change in ride height, and possibly givr slightly better NVH? Are there any other notable changes or benefits?
The other benefit is that it opens up options you might otherwise not have. If a certain shock is only available in an NB fitment, then you can use it on an NA this way.
Does anyone know the name of the book that Mazda published for the NA NB interchangeable parts???
It’s not a book on interchange parts, it’s a list of specific changes made to mechanical parts for technicians. It’s called “Service Highlights”.
So I have a 2001 that just got totaled. I was planning on replacing it with a 95M. I wanted to completely refresh the front suspension. From what I gathered I can swap the lower NB control arms onto the NA but I would have to use stock NA upper control arms correct? Just thinking it would be a lot easier to refresh the front suspension if I have two sets. I never really liked the steering feel in my NB but you are saying it is better than the NA? My friends NA I drove was by far the best I’ve felt, night and day better then my NB. Maybe because his car was gutted and mine is full interior?
I am just trying to get as tight and precise as can be while still riding good. I plan on using Xida XL with 8k 6k springs, comp control arm bushings with NB lower arms, circuit sport extended lower ball joints and tie rod ends, FM front sway and stock rear.
Do you have any experience with advanced auto parts race prepped steering rack?
Yes, you can use the NB lower arms. They will have no effect on anything else. Tires and alignment are big factors in steering feel, the amount of interior is usually not.
We have not investigated the Advanced Auto Parts rack at all.
@@FlyinMiataVideo Very strange with the steering feel. His NA was SOOO much better than my NB. Im not sure what alignment he was running but we were both on 205/50R15 Summer tires and I had about 2.5 degrees of camber. I believe he was on Konis and I have Zeda CRD's. My steering just felt like it never loaded up compared to his. It was precise but it didn't have the weight and feel of his car.
I'm looking to shave a lot of weight off of the front on my NA6, I know the V8 Roadster subframe is lighter than OEM, along with their control arms, but would the V8R subframe work with the 1.6 engine mounts or would I be looking at a custom setup to have the engine mounted?
The engine mounting points on the subframe are the same. The difference is in the metal plate that bolts to the block, so no problems there.
Be aware that while the V8R subframe is lighter than stock, it is also not as stiff and can crack under hard use. If you're using a Miata engine, I would recommend fabricating a brace that joins the two lower rear pickup points together. I'd also weld gussets on to the steering rack mount points.
@@FlyinMiataVideo Back again after about a year to refresh my memory on this. Thank you for the response on this! I'm back with another question, also regarding the V8R subframe. Would the factory control arms work with it, or would it be better to bite the bullet and get their control arms with it?
@@patrickfargie1146 We have used stock control arms with V8R subframes for years. There should be no problem.
does tire clearance change when u swap rear suspension? If yes in what way?÷
The only thing that affects tire clearance in a swap is those rear uprights. The NB units move the tire out 5mm compared to the NA. You can swap them either way - NA into an NB or NB into an NA, depending on what you're trying to accomplish. The brake dust shields may have to be modified to clear your brake rotors but that's a minor job.
I have a question! I’d like to build a set of coil overs out of bilstein shocks and aftermarket springs. If I go with the bilstein HD b6s that fit in the NB, if I use NB top hats will the ride height stay the same?
Currently sitting on stock setup for the NA, ideal ride height with coils is about 12.5 in. Want to comfortably fit 15x8 with 205/45
@@excessivefarce2808 To us, "coilovers" means adjustable perches and thus adjustable ride height. If you only change your shocks and upper mounts and everything else is exactly the same, the car will sit lower. But if you have coilovers, you can adjust for that.
Note that ride height is not really a factor in wheel/tire clearance. It may change how often the tire will rub, but in order to prevent rub you need to change the overall range of motion.
Flyin' Miata right, intended on buying sleeves. As long as I mate an NB shock with an NB top hat I should be good then? I also intended on shorter springs with helpers to compensate there travel & prevent unseating. I’m choosing wheels and tires after coils, so ensuring they won’t rub is a whole other can of worms.
Flyin' Miata do you guys know where to find exact info on bilstein’s maximum/minimum spring rates for their shocks?
@@excessivefarce2808 With sleeves, it should be no problem. I wouldn't go short on the primary springs, though - if you go too short, you run the risk of coil bind. We run 8" springs on our Fox coilovers.
Rx8 fuel injectors fit into NA's like stock
We don't consider them suspension components so they weren't part of this video :)
@@FlyinMiataVideo oh ok understandable, love what you guys do btw :)
Fantastic.