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If I donate, can I request some commentary on the divisiveness of Death Stranding? I get why it's not for everyone, but it is so hard to put that into words as succinctly as you may be able to.
I hear ya. But the incredible thing about skyrim is how customizable your experience is using mods. Got tired of the same old boring combat of skyrim? download dodge mods and enemy difficulty mods. Spice up old towns and cities with new buildings and npc mods. So no two saves are exactly the same experience.
I got the platinum on Skyrim. I felt it was an easy RPG with a satisfying progression system and beautiful graphics but I didn't really enjoy the vanilla experience because of the unpolished menu system and lazy melee combat. The quests were usually similar variations that usually never end because some are called radiant and endless.
The reason I loved skyrim was the world. Everywhere you looked you saw a scene that could be a desktop wallpaper. I mean, it had to be that. Quests were boring and repetitive, the in the moment story wasn't anything to call home about. Lore was great, but...
@@MrMisterkrazy OMG he is. Sonic engages in loops all the time, and they are always completely useless and *a waste of time* The Sonic level designers are obviously incorporating loops as a meta-commentary on poor game loops of the Sonic franchise!
@@JoshBurcham104 Or, alternatively, loops are a rather clever slice of Sonic game design that allows a player to maintain their sense of speed whilst still being able to see what difficulties come right after the loop. Now the loops are often used for spectacle, which is also true, but their mechanical potential is far greater than 'completely useless'.
@@FloopersteinMcGoof I'll give you that, my comment was constructed much more for comedy than actual mechanical analysis though, I actually really enjoy the nonsense spectacle speed of the 3d Sonic games when they occasionally do it right
Josh Burcham one thing to keep in mind as well is that in levels like Radical Highway from SA2, the loops are usually used as punctuation between contrasting sections of the level.
I feel like this explains my experience with immersive sims. I look back on System Shock, its sequel, Bioshocks 1 & 2, and the dlc's to infinite pretty fondly, but I can't go back to them as easily as say Minecraft or a level-based shooter because they're very involved games. I couldn't just put in a little bit of time to enjoy them, whereas the more minutely freeform structure of Minecraft or the snappiness of a shooter level makes them easier to pick back up and play.
that's why i love platformers, even the hard ones (i usually hate hard games). surely i could go and play supreme commander for 1 hour and half. but man, i know i can make some little bit of progress in celeste in just 10 minutes, so i'd rather play that. i'm playing messenger now, and i feel like i was productive in just 10 minutes
Great video as always, I appreciate it a lot! I have a few pointers if you want them. "Gameplay loops", "Core game loop" etc. these terms are a way to dissect and analyze (often with the purpose of tuning) a game. It's not featured in varying "amounts" across games, instead all games have them. From a walking simulator to a predatory mobile game, it's technically not a game without having at least one (that would make it a movie). Think of it as a way of dividing your game you are looking at into sub sections of *modes of interaction*. The "sum" will always be 100%, so the reason we use them is mostly to identify how many there are, and which ones are supporting, which is the core, and then make sure that the core definitely is satisfying for the target audience, while the supporting ones generally can be used more freely for other things; control pacing or to hook players and so on. You mentioned Destiny 2 for instance, this game relies on RPG mechanics, a progression system meant to support the shooting core. In the video, you make it sound like it's using loops to kind of distract you from the fact that you don't enjoy it, but that is only true if you don't personally enjoy the mechanics. The game was made to appeal to a shooter audience, and uses rpg progression in supporting loops to hook them. In the video you describe it as them "using" loops to make it addictive, but this effect comes solely from its progression system. You talk a lot about progression systems and addiction overall, but that is not an effect that comes from the "use" of game play loop analysis. The "use" of game play loop analysis, is to make sure your players spend time on what you want them to spend time on, and that can vary from game to game depending on core audience. For instance, having "worlds" or "levels" in your game, dividing it up, does not necessarily change the modes of interaction at all. It can have 8 or 12 worlds, and still involve the same core / supporting game play loops. The mode of interaction within a level is generally the core game loop and benefits like you said, from being integrated, learned by the player. Augmenting the core game loop with weapons or different mechanics on levels such as an ice level, is not necessarily a new game loop. On the other hand, the Total War series as you said has a clear boundary between strategy and tactics modes of interaction. Those are a good example of separate game play loops, one encompassing the other, supporting each other and creating something whole. But things like the bike level in battle toads, when suddenly the game is different, is an example where the core game loop is completely changed. These are the situations where the term is most useful to have. The consensus has moved generally towards the reasoning that a game should focus on it's core game loop and not split up the appeal too much. "Instead make a new game" is often heard in the corridors, when someone goes overboard with core game play loop changes. A good example where this went a bit sideways is Contra 3, when it suddenly and jarringly becomes a top down game. Yeah, that's splitting the core game loop (and the appeal) in two. I'm not sure a consumer can use the understanding of game play loops to change if they enjoy a game or not, it's more up to developers to find the appropriate composition of game loops that fit their audience. Gameplay loops is a term used to segment modes of interaction, and it's better understood if we try to disassociate it with the actual mechanics and systems in the game, and also from enjoyment of a game, because enjoyment comes from a lot of things, loops can be every which way, but if the pacing is right players might still enjoy it. Hope that makes some sense, thanks for reading!
It’s funny because all code pretty much lives in a while loop on some level. You can’t write software that can’t be boiled down to a loop. It’s fine to say the loop is predatory, but even the games that feel deeper are just a loop that gives you an illusion. It’s annoying the way he talks about loops because it seems to draw weird boundaries in the system.
Fantastic video! Had me thinking about things like Dark Souls' bonfire system, Fallout/Skyrim's "return to town to sell before you're overencumbered" pace, and Escape From Tarkov's raid design. This'll surely keep me thinking about what was previously an undefinable rhythm in games, that I now know is a definite piece of game design.
Hades is SO good. What puts it above the competition, in my eyes, is the characters. SUPERGIANT always make interesting characters, great banter, fully voice their games, and make the story actually interesting. That's why I keep coming back to their games. There's a lot of indie titles with great gameplay, but Supergiant just put their games above others in so many ways.
Thanks for the good design videos, I always love these! It's because of you and Mark Brown that I now am a full time student in game design, and I love it. Seriously. Big thanks!
Just now I'm playing through Persona 5...goddamn it's hard for me to rip myself away from the game. The loop is way too satisfying and so easy to do. I'm in love!
Persona 5 is interesting in that it has a ton of different-sized loops placed within each other. Like there's the daily life loop of a single day, the palace deadline loop, the palace exploration loop, the combat loop the level-up loop, the confidant loop... Probably even more of them that I can't recognize right now. And they all pretty much affect each other; the palace deadline affects your day-loop decisions, the palace exploration affects the palace deadline loop, the confidants and leveling up affect all combat which in turn affects the exploration. It's great how they tied a ton of mechanics and loops that at first sight don't seem to have anything to do with each other into one massive system of systems.
Persona 5? I put that down after 50 hours nd still nothing having happened so far. Never spent a single second on thinking to go back again. The only reason I kept playing for so long were frieds who told me it's gonna change, "the cool part is yet to come", etc. I get it, JRPGs do take their time to get going. But 50 hours? yeah no.
@@sh4dy832 Yeah, Persona 5 starts real slow and takes a ton of time for everything you can do to really open up. I'd say that's it's only weakness though, once it gets going it's so good. Definitely can understand people not liking it though too, my first playthrough (in Japanese) ended after 50 hours too. For me it was more about not understanding enough though... But once I got it in English and got really started with it, I practically lived inside that game for a couple of weeks. Even had two of those "wait, it's 6 AM and the sun is coming up? I've been playing for 14 hours straight?"-moments.
@@sh4dy832 idk about it getting good I think if you don’t like it in the first dungeon you won’t love it in the last. There are very few games that actually get good enough eventually to suffer through not liking it. Persona isn’t one of them, you either like it or not
@@elikubler-ross5997 I need you eve players to make up your mind if the game is p2w or not. I have never seen a community so evenly divided between the two
@@TaggedByTim It's not, but a large number of players think it is. Kinda four kinds of players exist in Eve -Highsec newbies, most of these are on the free to play accounts, they reside in a part of space that has almost nothing of value spawn in it. -Lowsec newbies, most of these are using subscription accounts, they are willing to go into lowsec, but are not in any real corperation(Guilds) and thus think they can survive only because they can spend real money to buy good ships. The Highsec newbies see these players and get upset that it's pay to win. -Lowsec Vets probably have subscriptions, but are part of a corporation, and easily make enough though missions and the corp that they don't need to spend any more real money than a subscription. -Nullsec Vets are part of the big corporations and alliances you hear about. They make so much in game money off the goods in null space, that they use it to pay for their subscriptions and gear. They never spend actually spend real cash on ships, and are the ones you hear about that lose thousand of dollars of real world equivalent. So the newbies, see people with big scary powerful ships, and because they stay in unprofitable space, they think the only way players can get these nice ships is by PTW... but the truth is none of the players with these ships actually spend money on them. I say this as a lowspace newbie of 12 years. My sibling during this time was a nullsec vet with an account a quarter of the age of my own.
@@Mirsellus Also, HIghsec Vets: Nullsec vets that got sick of that crap, can afford whatever they want but generally just use whatever was lying in their hangar today, and just like to chat about stuff while looking at pretty space ships.
Awesome video as always. As a game dev, I really appreciate these types of videos. Would love to see more in-depth analyses of games using these principles though. It's great seeing quick examples in each video, but these could be supplemented with case studies of individual games in their own videos to help affirm the concepts presented. Keep up the awesome work!
So that's why I love Killing Floor! A medium gameplay loop of a 10-round match and the short gameplay loop being the rounds themselves, split up by small shopping breaks.
Well, that was excellent and informative! I've gotten into Slay the Spire recently and man, I can really see how all this applies to it. You can get through one or two runs in a gaming session, and are pushed forward by the meta level goals of initially gaining new unlocks, and then eventually driving up your succession level as you improve. Personally I design in the space of tabletop RPGs like Dungeons and Dragons, and I think there's a huge amount of this type of design to unravel there. Will be giving this some serious thought, thanks again!
12:13 Her Story core loop = search with a term, find new clips. New clips contain new terms to search for, leading to another search and the discovery of still more clips. Mid-level loop = formulate a question then formulate and reformulate answers as you search. Answers lead to the formulation of more questions, which also inform your traversal of the core loop. Largest "loop" =/= a loop b/c you only do it once: Search database until you are satisfied that you've learned what you need to learn, then log off.
I'm honestly in awe of your production of these videos. No one else puts in footage of like 40 different games just to illustrate a point. With sauce in the description, even.
Dark Souls has such a brilliant "loop" Your first playthrough is broken up into loops Push through area from bonfire, Find boss, Die to boss, Repeat until you kill boss, Then Begin again First playthrough is maybe 20 hours depending on player ability it could massively vary but say for arguments sake 20 hours, you next NG+ playthrough might drastically drop to a 10-12 hour playthrough, then NG+2 become 8 hours, then 7, 6 down to 5 hours then your entire playthroughs become a "loop" before you know it a normal playthrough without setting challenges or handicaps only takes a few hours then the DLC comes out and slave knight gael skullfucks you until you cry
Warframe is a good example of this. The main loop is the mission, one level with a clear objective that usually takes somewhere between 2 and 20 minutes. Smaller gameplay loops are the combat and movement, both of which are usually automated by your brain after a while. Larger loops are created by the grind; that is, you need to run multiple missions in order to get new warframes, weapons, mods, and other items. There are so many and such complicated systems that most players have a "macro" goal that might take weeks or months to achieve, split into smaller goals that might each take dozens of missions.
I would have loved to hear your take on how the loop works for Civilisation games. The addictive aspect of “one more turn” which can easily be ttanslated to “one more short loop” in order to reach a medium (tech) or big loop (conquering an ennemy). I guess you did address it but I think it might be the greatest loop game ever and has perfected the addictive nature of loops.
One of the key characteristics of loops is that they work best when they are layered on top of each other. Civ does this really well. It has lots of teeny tiny loops where you just want to do this and make that and you are making satisfying decisions at a micro level. These all go towards making up what a turn is. These decisions put in motion a series of payoffs in the future that all span different amounts of time. So next turn you get some small payoff. BUT three turns from now you get a bigger payoff. BUT 6 TURNS FROM NOW. These are structured all the way up to your Medium term and long term loops.
Great video! Your point about cash-grabbing games, like Clash Royale, is spot on. That game had me playing for three years. I'd even sit there thinking 'is this even actually fun?' or 'why am I even on this?'. These games create an illusion of 'meaningfulness' when really you should just load a real game up and be taken on a story or adventure. FIFA does this too, as does COD. They play on people's natural short attention span and create positive feedback looks through extravagant 'You're Awesome' feedback screens. This feeds into gaming addiction which damages the industry as a whole. I've dropped Clash Royale and so much time back: it's amazing how the 'just another game' of four minutes becomes 40 minutes of vacuous, empty 'entertainment'. Thanks! Back to developing my own game ...
6:45 Many videogames having 8 stages/levels usually choose this number over others because it makes the progression felt worth it without feeling too short or too lenghty. For a example a common critic of Zelda: Majora's Mask (and BotW to some extent) is how there is only 4 main dungeons in the entire setting. Meanwhile having too many dungeons could end feeling repetitive ur overwhelming to some players. Final Fantasy games can be very daunting at first because, while they do usually have a clear number of mcguffins to collect, they often end having an unknown number of dungeons between each important one, so people are a bit scare on how long they can get to complete, specially in early installments when the Internet wasn't accesible for most people. Also having a set number of levels helps developers to spread resources better, since there is 8 stages to work on they would center in those said 8 stages, and once they are done they can now work in other add-ons for increasing the player experience during their playthrought.
Yahtzee talks about these in one of his Dev Diaries - unfortunately, I forget which. He refers to primary, secondary, and tertiary loops. The primary loop is the second to second action, the secondary is the minute to minute, and the tertiary the hour to hour. Each level is a more and more overarching and complex level of play.
Great video Adam! Your point about open worlds makes me wanna plug my favourite video game though. Like you said, many companies will fit outposts and watch towers in open worlds to make them seem more full and give you things to do, but there is a game which manages to put only story content in these worlds, with different places to explore all having purpose and that game is: "Fallout: New Vegas." Everything you do is for a purpose and you get a rewarding story or character moment out of every part of the world you explore. It's incredibly satisfying and leads for the most addicting, immersive game ever made in my opinion and everyone should do themselves a favour and check it out if they haven't already!
I realized this before i got to carried away with buying games I know I wouldnt play. I saved my money instead of buying new releases to experience old gems and recent classics and wait for sales. I had a little of a back log but now i made it a thing not to buy any game until I beat this backlog and so far its been super fun. Sticking to games gives u that commitment.
As I make my RPG I try to keep all of this in mind. I’ve set up many different goals such as killing all the enemies in a given room, progressing the story, or even being able to perfect the attack mechanic. These are all short term goals I think so long term goals would be getting to a higher level, upgrading your weapon, or buying new weapons that will outweigh your upgraded one.
I like to think that gameplay loops (which they probably are to certain extent) are based on 'real life loops' - It's easy to lose yourself in the small real life loops; eating food you like, having a smoke, watching a movie or playing a videogame. And then there are longer lasting loops like the release of a new game, getting a paycheck or a celebrating a holiday Altough they are fun and all, and are certainly important to not go crazy, it's *also* important to keep the longer lasting loops in the back of your head: getting your drivers licence, graduation, find a partner or save money to buy a house or whatever
At least for some turn based RPG that questions "Are you having fun?" Might not work all the time. Because while I have this video on I grinding in Dragon Quest 3 and ask that question and it was fun. However knowing it's to defeat final boss of game (otherwise couldn't, had reached it but no matter what I tried I lost aginst it), I'm still playing it.
Rpg and Strategy games have a particular traits that to be honest for most gamer's it is what will sell it. First one and the most important one(which goes for my comment about dark souls too) Relativity, or Who am i in relationship to everyone and what are the structures and hierarchy surrounding it and where do i fit in and where can i go and who can i be. This part about where can i go is very important for most players whether through knowing your skill(like dark souls) or through knowing your levels( like morrowind and to a lesser extent skyrim due to its level scaling which breaks everything if discovered by the player) is very important many strategy games ive seen try to focus on the short and mid game loops which are very important but completly fall flat due to the nature of repetition one game i can say that really proves this is kenshi the fact that you know you start the game as nobody and can have a potential to climb all the ranks of society to a king. now the second trait is scale which kenshi as mentioned before also exceeds at. Now non of the games ive played have this dark souls level unintuitive progression that keep things interesting but in order for strategy games to move up they need this unknown and uncertainty where all basic rules keep the game together but everything in the future is unpredictable and that is when these games will be Extremely fun. (Also death to Quicksave and Death to game pausing menus)
Noita has an interesting gameplay loop. You are a mage and you can die VERY fast if you do not pay attention and even if you are, you can just get an unlucky enemy spawn. It still works with your skill and rewards you for taking it slow and exploring. But on the same not it also moves you forward to the next section by only having healing between the layers. You can go up if you have the neccessary spells and time, but it is always a risk. So by having a smaller loop in the different layers and an overarching loop of die and retry it keeps you engaged, but because the overarching loop feels so random at times it can be very frustrating. Each time you die you lose everything and start in a completly new seed. Currently only with mods or file manipulation are you able too keep the seed after you die.
Breath of the wild obsesses me to a degree I've never experienced in almost 40 years or gaming. Not playing at the moment but it's a game can always return to and find an equanimity unusual in games.
4:50 allow me to defend dear old ff games and offer a different point of view. I know the video is about gameplay loops but with rpgs, at least old(japanese) rpgs there is something that you must consider, that being the quality of the story being delivered. The story beats in, lets say, final fantasy 9 are the reward you get after a a few battles. The STORY, not the quality of the gameplay, is what makes you want to continue playing.
@@LimeyLassen what ff did you play? and why didnt you finish? My original point was that the video covers only games whose story is non existing or clearly of secondary importance. I grew up in a time when game theory was as defined and complex as it is today and rpgs tought me that videogames could be a great way to tell stories and not just games. When playing an old ff you dont get very tight gameplay loops but the motivation to continue playing is there.
If u like Hades i cant recommend Dead Cells enough. I love it enough that even after beating the hardest difficulty mode im still playing, one of my favorite roguelikes of all time which is also why i wanna try Hades, reminds me of Dead Cells from the gameplay i've seen
@James Brincefield Spelunky is too hard for me in all honesty. Most roguelikes have a more linear difficulty curve, be it in difficulty modes (dead cells, ror2, FTL), having the game get harder when u beat it multiple times (Binding of Isaac) or just letting yourself get stronger the more u lose (Undermine, Rogue Legacy) i do have Spelunky but the difficulty curve is such a turn off for me i end up just not enjoying it much
I'm really surprised you didn't mention "Outer Wilds" in a video about loops, a game where the main gameplay loop is an actual time-loop. I guess you're trying not to be too obvious about it, or mention the same games over and over in your videos? :p
There are also games that have timers that count down while you are not playing. Some games have a lives/energy system where if you run out, you need to come back later once they recharge. Some games have events that give you a big reward if completed before a deadline. Some games have a streak system where rewards get bigger for playing at least once a day, and reset if you miss a day.
i played skyrim and fallout new vegas so many times, that i remember most of the dialog by heart. now i am playing the Outer worlds, which i enjoy more than skyrim and fallout NV. yet after i finished it once, the second playthrough feels boring. i can't decide if that makes it a better game or a worse one. their core game loops seems to be the same
I think that makes it a different game. I would never play firewatch again but it is easily in my top three. Whereas Portal 2, another story game, I replay regularly.
I can understand your struggle, even i am on the other side: I like playing a game once and hopefull finish it ( ihave them same problem as Adam mentioned at the beginning of this video). With so many games out there, im happy, if a game can keep me engaged till the end. I had a great time with Outer Worlds (OW). Even it might have the same game loop like your other mentioned games, it is much less open world like they are. OW is more structed in chapters, but this allowes the games to have a better/intense narritive. If multiple playthroughs are an important part for you, then OW shouldnt be less good then its predecessors for you.
I bet if the worlds of TOW were much more fleshed out, with much more interactivity, and much more to explore, then maybe you wouldn't find it so boring on the second playthrough. Don't get me wrong, I love the game, but when it comes to creating worlds that you really wanna spend time in, TES and FO are in another league. That's generally the "problem" with story-heavy games. Most of the fun comes from interacting with characters, and experiencing the story, which doesn't make for entertaining gameplay loops in themselves.
Yeah same here, I played thousands of hours on games like Europa universalist, Stellaris, Skyrim, Oblivion. And as much as I loved all those games, I'd say that I love as much Doom (2016) even though I played a bare 30 hours.
Well, this is something that deserves more attention. I recall wasting months of real-time on the, well, grind of War Thunder (Though... This applies to most so called MMO games in my experience), and as nice as it is to sometimes win, and slowly chip away at next new shiny, it is a gameplay loop that the game itself exploits. I'm happy to have freed up 50 gigabyts of space off my limit of 256 gigabyte SSD and to find more time for educations and /good/ games like Hollow Knight
This was a great video. I find gameplay loops fascinating in general and im quite a fan of the more abstract loops in games. I find short and snappy loops can sometimes make me really satsified but much like the loop it wears off in a matter of seconds... i can understand however, why some people dislike longer loops; i play dwarf fortress alot and its one of my favourite games but it has next to no distinguishable loop, i suppose thats the strength of "make your own fun" kind of games
Your explanation of long vs short term loops made me realize why Death Stranding has been such a divisive game. It looks like an action game without enough action, but actually the core of the game is not the moment-to-moment action of making bridges or avoiding enemies, but rather is the planning and route-making that goes into making a delivery before even making the first step, and the strategic use of resources, with the moment-to-moment gameplay serving as a test of those planning skills. In Metal Gear, the core loop is a lot more twitchy, reacting to enemies and setups, whereas Death Stranding is much slower-paced and meta in its strategy. But because it's so new and different, and does resemble older more arcade-like titles, not everyone has figured that out yet.
Dark souls is probably the pinnacle of gameplay loops. hard but fair satisfying combat that in all honesty can keep you engaged very long by itself(like literally people do and enjoy low level runs and i do to) is the primary loop, Leveling and upgrade weapons is your secondary loop(Beefing up basically), the third gameplay loop is exploring the world and finding its secrets(like enemy weaknesses, history, special tools that will help you get that needed edge) and eventually beating the game(not in a single game have i anticipated and wanted to beat it as much as i wanted to dark souls), it is almost like wearing a badge of honor and it is probably the main driving force for its unforgiving moments.
'always 8 for some reason' Ever since reading Steel Ball Run, I've been noticing Fibonacci numbers more and more often. That's right, not even introspective analysis and contemplation is safe from JoJo.
I don't know if that's just me, but man i couldn't stop playing frostpunk because of its loops (core loop : one day of gathering, building, sleeping/hunting + the longer term goal of building an evergrowing city)
I keep my backlog really small. One way of doing this is by not playing games in Early Access. Because they keep upading you spend much more time with them - but in the worst case you will never even play it once it's out of Early Access. I finish every game I play unless it's really bad and don't start another one while doing so! And yes, I have a lot of spare time! :D
I’m working on a semi open world RPG with a heavy focus on a feedback loop of exploring to find dungeons to get weapons to find more dungeons to get more weapons to prepare for main dungeons to up the world level and progress the story to get more weapons Most of the systems feed back into encouraging the player to explore to find new dungeons for more unique weapons.
Idk I’m always switching to games but I actually come back to them. I always am going through a cycle of playing 3 or 4 games at once to fulfill different experiences I enjoy. Maybe I’ll play final fantasy then a shooter to a platformer ect.
Shorter more enjoyable loops are the reason I have like tens of indie rougelikes (but not only) games in my library and maybe 1 or 2 bigger games. I can't get bothered to try and chip at 40+hour open world game when I can have a satisfying session in 20-30 minutes and decide if I wanna play more or not. Games like Enter the Gungeon, Slay the Spire, Into The Breach, Crypt of Necrodancer, Spelunky, Dead Cells and many more.
Dontchu ever, EVER hate on Sonic Adv I/II again... that being said great video a lot of info. Seems like a combo of great Gameplay loop, juice and smooth animation is the way to success, instead of focus on music, story, art etc
I played destiny 2 for about 1000 hrs throughout the years, and I loved the story and all that... but the only thing retaining me past when I finished the newest campaign or whatever was that time period they give you to get the best loot that’s just long enough so I can get my new loot before the next story is released but not too long that I can go take a break. And if you can’t take a break from destiny it gets really boring
Games with good/fun gameplay loops with a longer/meta loop for longer term, is hard to find. I can count them on 1 hand. But the boring gameplay loop games are limitless. It's such a simple concept but idk if people emphasize on it enough
People getting lost or not knowing what to do next is probably on top of reasons why people put game away. People need some directions and goal, otherwise they don't see a point to do anything. Despite thinking that Pokemon is very open world, it basically has same simple gameplay loop as other games: Catch new pokemon Train them to be strong enough to beat next opponent (usually Gym Leader) Beat strong opponent Repeat Usually there are some obstacles that force us to explore and get stronger like Gym Leader not being inside the building or you needing to learn how to cut through bush before accessing the Gym or learning how to smash rocks, swim, dive. All of it is part of the loop and we love loops. We love patterns and we love stories. As long as we have something to learn from it, it's challenging but not too hard to feel helpless, it should be fun. Graphics don't matter too much, I still had fun playing Pokemon Blue/Red like 2 years ago. As long is style is consistent, somehow appealing and graphics tell what you need to know, you are good to go.
MMOs are kind of a relic from a past era, when people had huge amounts of free time, and weren't drowning in content like we are now. It's hard to justify the time sink. I'd recommend Folding Ideas' recent video on classic WoW, it's really insightful.
@@LimeyLassen I mean even back when they were new, I couldn't enjoy the core loop. Not just the amount of time investment, but the mechanics of combat that changes fairly little.
The gameplay may be slow and stale but the multiplayer aspects and community interaction bring the games themselves to another level. Seriously if you get yourself involved with lots of players you'll find yourself relying on each other for getting things done. Also they are randomness incarnate, with random outcomes to attacks, random loot, random people you meet in the world and random friendships/enemies made along the way, playing through the game on another class offers a different experience too.
The core loop of mmos is much less effective without actively being involved in a community, or playing with friends imo. Im pretty sure most mmo players (myself included) enjoy the social aspect of mmos much more than the actual gameplay. Its surprising how much more fun you can derive playing with others, even if the core itself is kinda lame.
I think this video should have a follow up on story focused RPG-s. I wanted to replay both Legends of heroes trails in the sky and Dragon Age Origins but I never got around to finish them even though my first playthrough was a blast on both occasions. Yet I still see some people going around and starting their 40th replay and I never understand it.
Destiny 2's progression loop is actually pretty bad, because it's actually faked. Up until New Light, all power level and character level actually was was just an arbitrary gate to content. The post game basic loop is even worse: you're expected to just repeat those same activities over and over in hopes of getting new/better guns or armor. But all of it leads towards raids. Technically, raids are more of the same - just working towards more/better loot - but they are actually fantastic because they have real gameplay depth: they have different encounters with unique (generally well thought out and not just gimmicky) mechanics that require actual other people, communication/coordination, oftentimes practice, along with unique environments/atmospheres, lore bits, and pacing structure. If you've never tried to raid, you've never gotten what's intended out of Destiny (1 or 2). That is, unless you prefer PVP (the loop being IMO extremely boring but intended as a mastery of skill: outduel others until you fail, respawn, repeat).
I've tried Raids, they're okay but my main issue is that while the gunplay in general is pretty good, the guns themselves are shit. The exotics never feel that special and the regular guns don't feel very different from one another. I felt like the decision to force you to choose between shotgun, rocket launcher, grenade launcher, sword, and sniper was needlessly forced. With them limiting you to one exotic I really wanted an exotic to make you feel powerful, at least in PvE, but every time I got a new one it was underwhelming. The most fun setup I had was using the Fighting Lion because then at least the energy slot and kinetic slot felt like they actually had a meaningful difference.
Basically: Primary loop: The thing your player is trying to achieve on a second by second basis. This is where a lot of the polish should be. For example, in doom it’s shooting enemy’s and exploring the level. Secondary loop: The thing your player is trying to achieve on a minute by minute basis. It’s usually done by completing many of the primary loops. For example, in doom, it’s killing/exploring everything in a level. Tertiary loop: The thing your player is trying to achieve on a hour by hour basis. It’s usually done by completing many of the primary and secondary loops. Once your player completes on of these, they should feel like they’ve truly achieved something. For example, in doom it’s completing every level.
The more I think about gameplay loops the harder of a time I have trying to fit them into RPG games like Outer Worlds... I can get as far as "Get Quest -> Do It -> Repeat" but that just feels so ambiguous to fit every RPG game ever. Do RPGs just rely on being a disorganized mess to distract you from the simple quest-grind loop? Do I have any idea of what I am talking about?
I mean, thats the loop that gets you to go somewhere. The reward to it is also important. Then once you go somewhere you shoot people and loot them, thats also a loop. You get EXP to increase your character level and get new things/get better. Thats presumably also a loop.
Liked this video. There's a lot of games I love but the initial gameplay loop is offputting or a slog so I don't end up playing them. Examples include death stranding, they are billions, the long dark, sekiro, prey and even destiny 1 and 2 back when I had them. These all have either long gameplay loops or setup phases or lack of meaningful progress within a session that means that I can't do much and so get put off from even playing them. For all its negatives skyrim Is such an easy game to dip into. I haven't got outer worlds but it doesn't seem like the gameplay loop is very satisfying, it's more about the story and choices that keep people interested and not the do anything any time you want thing. Similarly I played a demo for dishonored 2 and atleast the initial bits it doesn't feel like you can do that much. I don't know if this is to do with my depression or just generally the gameplay loops not fitting with how I am but it is worth thinking about. Great Vid Adam
I would like to ask you what contacts you tackled on destiny because there are so many things to do that it’s very hard to get stuck in a game play loop
I WISH I had a library of unfinished games... No at this point I have a steam (and switch, and several other things, like GOG and stuff) library full of things I've bought but never even started up even once... ugh. It's crazy what things are like these days. XD I own multiple supergiant games by the way, but I've only played one... And... I didn't finish it. ;p
I used to have a big problem with not finishing games, so I developed a new policy. I play one game at a time and I stick with it until it is finished. If I don't feel like continuing a game, I make a decision regarding whether I want to finish it. If I decide not to finish it, I leave it with no intention of coming back to it. If I decide to finish it then I stick to it before moving on to something else.
This is a stickup, give me the money and I'll use it to fund more fun content you hopefully enjoy! www.patreon.com/ArchitectofGames
Do it or I'll force you to follow me on twitter - that website is the worst and it's only good for SEO optimisation, you'll go insane!: twitter.com/Thefearalcarrot
Joke's on you. I have no money and NO twitter account. ;p
@@KuraIthys Curses! Foiled again!
If I donate, can I request some commentary on the divisiveness of Death Stranding? I get why it's not for everyone, but it is so hard to put that into words as succinctly as you may be able to.
OMG you got the dreadful whispers!
Out of curiosity when listing the games in the description could you put the timestamps?
* slaps game *
it fit many lööps, brøther
That one killed me dead
Opened the video page only to check if it had this kind of comment.
What?!
THIS IS THE COMMENT
lööps
Huh... maybe that's why I spent so much time on Skyrim yet struggle to find anything I really enjoyed about that game.
I hear ya. But the incredible thing about skyrim is how customizable your experience is using mods. Got tired of the same old boring combat of skyrim? download dodge mods and enemy difficulty mods. Spice up old towns and cities with new buildings and npc mods. So no two saves are exactly the same experience.
@@JadeMythriil nope ill just spend the time i would have to spend fiddling with mods to go to work and buy a good game instead.
I got the platinum on Skyrim. I felt it was an easy RPG with a satisfying progression system and beautiful graphics but I didn't really enjoy the vanilla experience because of the unpolished menu system and lazy melee combat. The quests were usually similar variations that usually never end because some are called radiant and endless.
Its the the dark magic of Todd 'buy my game' Howard
The reason I loved skyrim was the world. Everywhere you looked you saw a scene that could be a desktop wallpaper. I mean, it had to be that. Quests were boring and repetitive, the in the moment story wasn't anything to call home about. Lore was great, but...
11:48 a million crappy games wanting to steal your time and money *unrelated footage of sonic*
He's doing a loop!
@@MrMisterkrazy OMG he is. Sonic engages in loops all the time, and they are always completely useless and *a waste of time* The Sonic level designers are obviously incorporating loops as a meta-commentary on poor game loops of the Sonic franchise!
@@JoshBurcham104 Or, alternatively, loops are a rather clever slice of Sonic game design that allows a player to maintain their sense of speed whilst still being able to see what difficulties come right after the loop. Now the loops are often used for spectacle, which is also true, but their mechanical potential is far greater than 'completely useless'.
@@FloopersteinMcGoof I'll give you that, my comment was constructed much more for comedy than actual mechanical analysis though, I actually really enjoy the nonsense spectacle speed of the 3d Sonic games when they occasionally do it right
Josh Burcham one thing to keep in mind as well is that in levels like Radical Highway from SA2, the loops are usually used as punctuation between contrasting sections of the level.
I feel like this explains my experience with immersive sims. I look back on System Shock, its sequel, Bioshocks 1 & 2, and the dlc's to infinite pretty fondly, but I can't go back to them as easily as say Minecraft or a level-based shooter because they're very involved games. I couldn't just put in a little bit of time to enjoy them, whereas the more minutely freeform structure of Minecraft or the snappiness of a shooter level makes them easier to pick back up and play.
that's why i love platformers, even the hard ones (i usually hate hard games). surely i could go and play supreme commander for 1 hour and half. but man, i know i can make some little bit of progress in celeste in just 10 minutes, so i'd rather play that. i'm playing messenger now, and i feel like i was productive in just 10 minutes
Even then, the self-contained missions make it easier. Pathologic 2 which could be argued as an immersive sim just isn't grabbing me.
Someone who sounds exactly like adam killed him and took over the channel. How do I know? He didn't speak about xcom 2.
I think it is still Adam. He showed some footage from Sunless Skies.
Great video as always, I appreciate it a lot!
I have a few pointers if you want them.
"Gameplay loops", "Core game loop" etc. these terms are a way to dissect and analyze (often with the purpose of tuning) a game. It's not featured in varying "amounts" across games, instead all games have them. From a walking simulator to a predatory mobile game, it's technically not a game without having at least one (that would make it a movie). Think of it as a way of dividing your game you are looking at into sub sections of *modes of interaction*. The "sum" will always be 100%, so the reason we use them is mostly to identify how many there are, and which ones are supporting, which is the core, and then make sure that the core definitely is satisfying for the target audience, while the supporting ones generally can be used more freely for other things; control pacing or to hook players and so on.
You mentioned Destiny 2 for instance, this game relies on RPG mechanics, a progression system meant to support the shooting core. In the video, you make it sound like it's using loops to kind of distract you from the fact that you don't enjoy it, but that is only true if you don't personally enjoy the mechanics. The game was made to appeal to a shooter audience, and uses rpg progression in supporting loops to hook them. In the video you describe it as them "using" loops to make it addictive, but this effect comes solely from its progression system. You talk a lot about progression systems and addiction overall, but that is not an effect that comes from the "use" of game play loop analysis. The "use" of game play loop analysis, is to make sure your players spend time on what you want them to spend time on, and that can vary from game to game depending on core audience. For instance, having "worlds" or "levels" in your game, dividing it up, does not necessarily change the modes of interaction at all. It can have 8 or 12 worlds, and still involve the same core / supporting game play loops. The mode of interaction within a level is generally the core game loop and benefits like you said, from being integrated, learned by the player. Augmenting the core game loop with weapons or different mechanics on levels such as an ice level, is not necessarily a new game loop. On the other hand, the Total War series as you said has a clear boundary between strategy and tactics modes of interaction. Those are a good example of separate game play loops, one encompassing the other, supporting each other and creating something whole. But things like the bike level in battle toads, when suddenly the game is different, is an example where the core game loop is completely changed. These are the situations where the term is most useful to have. The consensus has moved generally towards the reasoning that a game should focus on it's core game loop and not split up the appeal too much. "Instead make a new game" is often heard in the corridors, when someone goes overboard with core game play loop changes. A good example where this went a bit sideways is Contra 3, when it suddenly and jarringly becomes a top down game. Yeah, that's splitting the core game loop (and the appeal) in two.
I'm not sure a consumer can use the understanding of game play loops to change if they enjoy a game or not, it's more up to developers to find the appropriate composition of game loops that fit their audience. Gameplay loops is a term used to segment modes of interaction, and it's better understood if we try to disassociate it with the actual mechanics and systems in the game, and also from enjoyment of a game, because enjoyment comes from a lot of things, loops can be every which way, but if the pacing is right players might still enjoy it. Hope that makes some sense, thanks for reading!
Wow. I learned more from this comment than the whole video. I'm taking notes of both.
Actually this makes more sense. Thanks for sharing.
It’s funny because all code pretty much lives in a while loop on some level. You can’t write software that can’t be boiled down to a loop. It’s fine to say the loop is predatory, but even the games that feel deeper are just a loop that gives you an illusion. It’s annoying the way he talks about loops because it seems to draw weird boundaries in the system.
You... you just reminded me Factorio exists! I had so much stuff to get done today!
Too bad. The factory must grow.
@Arthur Ying Gaudefroy "Alright, you've got sixteen cars of iron plates coming in. What do you mean that's not enough‽"
--me, yesterday
There is no sleep only Factoria
Fantastic video! Had me thinking about things like Dark Souls' bonfire system, Fallout/Skyrim's "return to town to sell before you're overencumbered" pace, and Escape From Tarkov's raid design. This'll surely keep me thinking about what was previously an undefinable rhythm in games, that I now know is a definite piece of game design.
Gameplay loops are pretty sweet, but what about froot loops?
They are quite literally sweet.
@@Peak_Antelope that's froot. Not fruit 😒
Hades is SO good.
What puts it above the competition, in my eyes, is the characters. SUPERGIANT always make interesting characters, great banter, fully voice their games, and make the story actually interesting.
That's why I keep coming back to their games. There's a lot of indie titles with great gameplay, but Supergiant just put their games above others in so many ways.
Thanks for the good design videos, I always love these!
It's because of you and Mark Brown that I now am a full time student in game design, and I love it.
Seriously. Big thanks!
Best of luck with your study. :)
Just now I'm playing through Persona 5...goddamn it's hard for me to rip myself away from the game. The loop is way too satisfying and so easy to do. I'm in love!
Persona 5 is interesting in that it has a ton of different-sized loops placed within each other. Like there's the daily life loop of a single day, the palace deadline loop, the palace exploration loop, the combat loop the level-up loop, the confidant loop... Probably even more of them that I can't recognize right now. And they all pretty much affect each other; the palace deadline affects your day-loop decisions, the palace exploration affects the palace deadline loop, the confidants and leveling up affect all combat which in turn affects the exploration. It's great how they tied a ton of mechanics and loops that at first sight don't seem to have anything to do with each other into one massive system of systems.
Persona 5? I put that down after 50 hours nd still nothing having happened so far. Never spent a single second on thinking to go back again. The only reason I kept playing for so long were frieds who told me it's gonna change, "the cool part is yet to come", etc.
I get it, JRPGs do take their time to get going. But 50 hours? yeah no.
@@sh4dy832 Yeah, Persona 5 starts real slow and takes a ton of time for everything you can do to really open up. I'd say that's it's only weakness though, once it gets going it's so good. Definitely can understand people not liking it though too, my first playthrough (in Japanese) ended after 50 hours too. For me it was more about not understanding enough though... But once I got it in English and got really started with it, I practically lived inside that game for a couple of weeks. Even had two of those "wait, it's 6 AM and the sun is coming up? I've been playing for 14 hours straight?"-moments.
@@sh4dy832 idk about it getting good I think if you don’t like it in the first dungeon you won’t love it in the last. There are very few games that actually get good enough eventually to suffer through not liking it. Persona isn’t one of them, you either like it or not
*Laughs and cries in EVE Online*
EVE Online's core gameplay loop is being repeatedly griefed by P2W assholes.
Assholes - yes. P2W? No.
@@elikubler-ross5997 I need you eve players to make up your mind if the game is p2w or not. I have never seen a community so evenly divided between the two
@@TaggedByTim It's not, but a large number of players think it is. Kinda four kinds of players exist in Eve
-Highsec newbies, most of these are on the free to play accounts, they reside in a part of space that has almost nothing of value spawn in it.
-Lowsec newbies, most of these are using subscription accounts, they are willing to go into lowsec, but are not in any real corperation(Guilds) and thus think they can survive only because they can spend real money to buy good ships. The Highsec newbies see these players and get upset that it's pay to win.
-Lowsec Vets probably have subscriptions, but are part of a corporation, and easily make enough though missions and the corp that they don't need to spend any more real money than a subscription.
-Nullsec Vets are part of the big corporations and alliances you hear about. They make so much in game money off the goods in null space, that they use it to pay for their subscriptions and gear. They never spend actually spend real cash on ships, and are the ones you hear about that lose thousand of dollars of real world equivalent.
So the newbies, see people with big scary powerful ships, and because they stay in unprofitable space, they think the only way players can get these nice ships is by PTW... but the truth is none of the players with these ships actually spend money on them.
I say this as a lowspace newbie of 12 years. My sibling during this time was a nullsec vet with an account a quarter of the age of my own.
@@Mirsellus Also, HIghsec Vets: Nullsec vets that got sick of that crap, can afford whatever they want but generally just use whatever was lying in their hangar today, and just like to chat about stuff while looking at pretty space ships.
Final Fantasy 6 music, nice. Best FF game ever.
I couldn't concentrate on the video when it came on because I was listening to the music. Had to skip back to when I lost focus. BEST MUSIC
Was this the music at 4:30?
Awesome video as always. As a game dev, I really appreciate these types of videos. Would love to see more in-depth analyses of games using these principles though. It's great seeing quick examples in each video, but these could be supplemented with case studies of individual games in their own videos to help affirm the concepts presented. Keep up the awesome work!
So that's why I love Killing Floor! A medium gameplay loop of a 10-round match and the short gameplay loop being the rounds themselves, split up by small shopping breaks.
And... it's a gun porn! :-)
Well, that was excellent and informative! I've gotten into Slay the Spire recently and man, I can really see how all this applies to it. You can get through one or two runs in a gaming session, and are pushed forward by the meta level goals of initially gaining new unlocks, and then eventually driving up your succession level as you improve.
Personally I design in the space of tabletop RPGs like Dungeons and Dragons, and I think there's a huge amount of this type of design to unravel there. Will be giving this some serious thought, thanks again!
I close Hades and open up RUclips and get recommended a video that makes me want to play Hades again lmao
12:13 Her Story core loop = search with a term, find new clips. New clips contain new terms to search for, leading to another search and the discovery of still more clips. Mid-level loop = formulate a question then formulate and reformulate answers as you search. Answers lead to the formulation of more questions, which also inform your traversal of the core loop. Largest "loop" =/= a loop b/c you only do it once: Search database until you are satisfied that you've learned what you need to learn, then log off.
I'm honestly in awe of your production of these videos. No one else puts in footage of like 40 different games just to illustrate a point. With sauce in the description, even.
Dark Souls has such a brilliant "loop"
Your first playthrough is broken up into loops
Push through area from bonfire, Find boss, Die to boss, Repeat until you kill boss, Then Begin again
First playthrough is maybe 20 hours depending on player ability it could massively vary but say for arguments sake 20 hours,
you next NG+ playthrough might drastically drop to a 10-12 hour playthrough, then NG+2 become 8 hours, then 7, 6 down to 5 hours
then your entire playthroughs become a "loop" before you know it a normal playthrough without setting challenges or handicaps only takes a few hours
then the DLC comes out and slave knight gael skullfucks you until you cry
Warframe is a good example of this. The main loop is the mission, one level with a clear objective that usually takes somewhere between 2 and 20 minutes. Smaller gameplay loops are the combat and movement, both of which are usually automated by your brain after a while. Larger loops are created by the grind; that is, you need to run multiple missions in order to get new warframes, weapons, mods, and other items. There are so many and such complicated systems that most players have a "macro" goal that might take weeks or months to achieve, split into smaller goals that might each take dozens of missions.
I would have loved to hear your take on how the loop works for Civilisation games. The addictive aspect of “one more turn” which can easily be ttanslated to “one more short loop” in order to reach a medium (tech) or big loop (conquering an ennemy). I guess you did address it but I think it might be the greatest loop game ever and has perfected the addictive nature of loops.
One of the key characteristics of loops is that they work best when they are layered on top of each other. Civ does this really well. It has lots of teeny tiny loops where you just want to do this and make that and you are making satisfying decisions at a micro level. These all go towards making up what a turn is. These decisions put in motion a series of payoffs in the future that all span different amounts of time. So next turn you get some small payoff. BUT three turns from now you get a bigger payoff. BUT 6 TURNS FROM NOW. These are structured all the way up to your Medium term and long term loops.
@@gamedesignwithmichael Well said! It's exactly like that. Those darn manipulative but oh so sweet Civ games.
5:14 I'M NOT AN EGG AT ALL! AHAHAHAHA!
Great video! Your point about cash-grabbing games, like Clash Royale, is spot on. That game had me playing for three years. I'd even sit there thinking 'is this even actually fun?' or 'why am I even on this?'. These games create an illusion of 'meaningfulness' when really you should just load a real game up and be taken on a story or adventure. FIFA does this too, as does COD. They play on people's natural short attention span and create positive feedback looks through extravagant 'You're Awesome' feedback screens. This feeds into gaming addiction which damages the industry as a whole. I've dropped Clash Royale and so much time back: it's amazing how the 'just another game' of four minutes becomes 40 minutes of vacuous, empty 'entertainment'. Thanks! Back to developing my own game ...
6:45 Many videogames having 8 stages/levels usually choose this number over others because it makes the progression felt worth it without feeling too short or too lenghty.
For a example a common critic of Zelda: Majora's Mask (and BotW to some extent) is how there is only 4 main dungeons in the entire setting. Meanwhile having too many dungeons could end feeling repetitive ur overwhelming to some players.
Final Fantasy games can be very daunting at first because, while they do usually have a clear number of mcguffins to collect, they often end having an unknown number of dungeons between each important one, so people are a bit scare on how long they can get to complete, specially in early installments when the Internet wasn't accesible for most people.
Also having a set number of levels helps developers to spread resources better, since there is 8 stages to work on they would center in those said 8 stages, and once they are done they can now work in other add-ons for increasing the player experience during their playthrought.
The moral of the video: Appreciate the lööps, brøther
.
Yahtzee talks about these in one of his Dev Diaries - unfortunately, I forget which. He refers to primary, secondary, and tertiary loops. The primary loop is the second to second action, the secondary is the minute to minute, and the tertiary the hour to hour. Each level is a more and more overarching and complex level of play.
Hades is so good! Thanks for the video as always!
3:00 This one's going right on the fridge, son
Great video Adam! Your point about open worlds makes me wanna plug my favourite video game though. Like you said, many companies will fit outposts and watch towers in open worlds to make them seem more full and give you things to do, but there is a game which manages to put only story content in these worlds, with different places to explore all having purpose and that game is: "Fallout: New Vegas." Everything you do is for a purpose and you get a rewarding story or character moment out of every part of the world you explore. It's incredibly satisfying and leads for the most addicting, immersive game ever made in my opinion and everyone should do themselves a favour and check it out if they haven't already!
I realized this before i got to carried away with buying games I know I wouldnt play. I saved my money instead of buying new releases to experience old gems and recent classics and wait for sales. I had a little of a back log but now i made it a thing not to buy any game until I beat this backlog and so far its been super fun. Sticking to games gives u that commitment.
Thank you for shouting out Pikmin. My favorite series and imo an underused case study of game design
As I make my RPG I try to keep all of this in mind. I’ve set up many different goals such as killing all the enemies in a given room, progressing the story, or even being able to perfect the attack mechanic. These are all short term goals I think so long term goals would be getting to a higher level, upgrading your weapon, or buying new weapons that will outweigh your upgraded one.
I like to think that gameplay loops (which they probably are to certain extent) are based on 'real life loops'
- It's easy to lose yourself in the small real life loops; eating food you like, having a smoke, watching a movie or playing a videogame.
And then there are longer lasting loops like the release of a new game, getting a paycheck or a celebrating a holiday
Altough they are fun and all, and are certainly important to not go crazy, it's *also* important to keep the longer lasting loops in the back of your head: getting your drivers licence, graduation, find a partner or save money to buy a house or whatever
The music playing during the outro really made me think of The 7th Saga.
At least for some turn based RPG that questions "Are you having fun?" Might not work all the time. Because while I have this video on I grinding in Dragon Quest 3 and ask that question and it was fun. However knowing it's to defeat final boss of game (otherwise couldn't, had reached it but no matter what I tried I lost aginst it), I'm still playing it.
Rpg and Strategy games have a particular traits that to be honest for most gamer's it is what will sell it. First one and the most important one(which goes for my comment about dark souls too) Relativity, or Who am i in relationship to everyone and what are the structures and hierarchy surrounding it and where do i fit in and where can i go and who can i be. This part about where can i go is very important for most players whether through knowing your skill(like dark souls) or through knowing your levels( like morrowind and to a lesser extent skyrim due to its level scaling which breaks everything if discovered by the player) is very important many strategy games ive seen try to focus on the short and mid game loops which are very important but completly fall flat due to the nature of repetition one game i can say that really proves this is kenshi the fact that you know you start the game as nobody and can have a potential to climb all the ranks of society to a king. now the second trait is scale which kenshi as mentioned before also exceeds at. Now non of the games ive played have this dark souls level unintuitive progression that keep things interesting but in order for strategy games to move up they need this unknown and uncertainty where all basic rules keep the game together but everything in the future is unpredictable and that is when these games will be Extremely fun. (Also death to Quicksave and Death to game pausing menus)
Noita has an interesting gameplay loop.
You are a mage and you can die VERY fast if you do not pay attention and even if you are, you can just get an unlucky enemy spawn.
It still works with your skill and rewards you for taking it slow and exploring. But on the same not it also moves you forward to the next section by only having healing between the layers.
You can go up if you have the neccessary spells and time, but it is always a risk.
So by having a smaller loop in the different layers and an overarching loop of die and retry it keeps you engaged, but because the overarching loop feels so random at times it can be very frustrating.
Each time you die you lose everything and start in a completly new seed. Currently only with mods or file manipulation are you able too keep the seed after you die.
Noita is one of the roguelikes of all time.
Breath of the wild obsesses me to a degree I've never experienced in almost 40 years or gaming. Not playing at the moment but it's a game can always return to and find an equanimity unusual in games.
It is an absolute masterpiece. Search on youtube for a botw player named Peco, some of the fights are insane.
4:50 allow me to defend dear old ff games and offer a different point of view. I know the video is about gameplay loops but with rpgs, at least old(japanese) rpgs there is something that you must consider, that being the quality of the story being delivered. The story beats in, lets say, final fantasy 9 are the reward you get after a a few battles. The STORY, not the quality of the gameplay, is what makes you want to continue playing.
But Chrono Trigger has both ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I've played through CT to every ending and I've never had the patience to finish an FF title
@@LimeyLassen what ff did you play? and why didnt you finish?
My original point was that the video covers only games whose story is non existing or clearly of secondary importance.
I grew up in a time when game theory was as defined and complex as it is today and rpgs tought me that videogames could be a great way to tell stories and not just games. When playing an old ff you dont get very tight gameplay loops but the motivation to continue playing is there.
00:52 As a proffessional german I can say, to me this arm does look like someone trying to do the Hitlergruß
I Think u just psychologically fixed my gripe with most new games I play, Thank you so muchos
If u like Hades i cant recommend Dead Cells enough. I love it enough that even after beating the hardest difficulty mode im still playing, one of my favorite roguelikes of all time
which is also why i wanna try Hades, reminds me of Dead Cells from the gameplay i've seen
@James Brincefield Spelunky is too hard for me in all honesty. Most roguelikes have a more linear difficulty curve, be it in difficulty modes (dead cells, ror2, FTL), having the game get harder when u beat it multiple times (Binding of Isaac) or just letting yourself get stronger the more u lose (Undermine, Rogue Legacy)
i do have Spelunky but the difficulty curve is such a turn off for me i end up just not enjoying it much
I'm really surprised you didn't mention "Outer Wilds" in a video about loops, a game where the main gameplay loop is an actual time-loop. I guess you're trying not to be too obvious about it, or mention the same games over and over in your videos? :p
Haha great example
Maybe because Outer Wilds is a bad game.
Sombre ?
@@Sombre____ There has never been a worse take
There are also games that have timers that count down while you are not playing. Some games have a lives/energy system where if you run out, you need to come back later once they recharge. Some games have events that give you a big reward if completed before a deadline. Some games have a streak system where rewards get bigger for playing at least once a day, and reset if you miss a day.
i played skyrim and fallout new vegas so many times, that i remember most of the dialog by heart.
now i am playing the Outer worlds, which i enjoy more than skyrim and fallout NV. yet after i finished it once, the second playthrough feels boring.
i can't decide if that makes it a better game or a worse one.
their core game loops seems to be the same
I think that makes it a different game. I would never play firewatch again but it is easily in my top three. Whereas Portal 2, another story game, I replay regularly.
I can understand your struggle, even i am on the other side: I like playing a game once and hopefull finish it ( ihave them same problem as Adam mentioned at the beginning of this video). With so many games out there, im happy, if a game can keep me engaged till the end.
I had a great time with Outer Worlds (OW). Even it might have the same game loop like your other mentioned games, it is much less open world like they are. OW is more structed in chapters, but this allowes the games to have a better/intense narritive.
If multiple playthroughs are an important part for you, then OW shouldnt be less good then its predecessors for you.
I'd say that since you enjoyed it more then Outer Worlds is a better game but just has less replayability.
I bet if the worlds of TOW were much more fleshed out, with much more interactivity, and much more to explore, then maybe you wouldn't find it so boring on the second playthrough. Don't get me wrong, I love the game, but when it comes to creating worlds that you really wanna spend time in, TES and FO are in another league. That's generally the "problem" with story-heavy games. Most of the fun comes from interacting with characters, and experiencing the story, which doesn't make for entertaining gameplay loops in themselves.
Yeah same here, I played thousands of hours on games like Europa universalist, Stellaris, Skyrim, Oblivion.
And as much as I loved all those games, I'd say that I love as much Doom (2016) even though I played a bare 30 hours.
Well, this is something that deserves more attention. I recall wasting months of real-time on the, well, grind of War Thunder (Though... This applies to most so called MMO games in my experience), and as nice as it is to sometimes win, and slowly chip away at next new shiny, it is a gameplay loop that the game itself exploits. I'm happy to have freed up 50 gigabyts of space off my limit of 256 gigabyte SSD and to find more time for educations and /good/ games like Hollow Knight
Music at 4:30 is from where? It sounds so familiar to me but I can't put my finger on it.
11:22 He understands, finally someone understands.
I've always found that farming sim games tend to have very fun feedback loops, games like stardew valley and rune factory 4.
This was a great video. I find gameplay loops fascinating in general and im quite a fan of the more abstract loops in games. I find short and snappy loops can sometimes make me really satsified but much like the loop it wears off in a matter of seconds... i can understand however, why some people dislike longer loops; i play dwarf fortress alot and its one of my favourite games but it has next to no distinguishable loop, i suppose thats the strength of "make your own fun" kind of games
Oh this vid is already great. Awesome. Appreciate the uploads
Your explanation of long vs short term loops made me realize why Death Stranding has been such a divisive game. It looks like an action game without enough action, but actually the core of the game is not the moment-to-moment action of making bridges or avoiding enemies, but rather is the planning and route-making that goes into making a delivery before even making the first step, and the strategic use of resources, with the moment-to-moment gameplay serving as a test of those planning skills. In Metal Gear, the core loop is a lot more twitchy, reacting to enemies and setups, whereas Death Stranding is much slower-paced and meta in its strategy. But because it's so new and different, and does resemble older more arcade-like titles, not everyone has figured that out yet.
3:00 "older than a significant audience of this video"... thanks. now I feel old.. again
Dark souls is probably the pinnacle of gameplay loops. hard but fair satisfying combat that in all honesty can keep you engaged very long by itself(like literally people do and enjoy low level runs and i do to) is the primary loop, Leveling and upgrade weapons is your secondary loop(Beefing up basically), the third gameplay loop is exploring the world and finding its secrets(like enemy weaknesses, history, special tools that will help you get that needed edge) and eventually beating the game(not in a single game have i anticipated and wanted to beat it as much as i wanted to dark souls), it is almost like wearing a badge of honor and it is probably the main driving force for its unforgiving moments.
I've put hundreds of hours into grim dawn and it's by far my favourite arpg of all time.
'always 8 for some reason'
Ever since reading Steel Ball Run, I've been noticing Fibonacci numbers more and more often.
That's right, not even introspective analysis and contemplation is safe from JoJo.
There are more Fibonacci numbers from 1-8 than there are numbers that are not Fibonacci though
@@leohuangchunwang yeah, that's fair, of course that just how the curve works
4:05 "veni vidi vici" - Total Warhammer 2 gameplay loop, basically.
I just spent an hour trying to figure out the loops in old school runescape... im stumped my guy
I don't know if that's just me, but man i couldn't stop playing frostpunk because of its loops (core loop : one day of gathering, building, sleeping/hunting + the longer term goal of building an evergrowing city)
at 3:27 not sure if anyone saw the subtitles, but it's just great
I keep my backlog really small. One way of doing this is by not playing games in Early Access. Because they keep upading you spend much more time with them - but in the worst case you will never even play it once it's out of Early Access. I finish every game I play unless it's really bad and don't start another one while doing so! And yes, I have a lot of spare time! :D
I think it's also worth looking into how loops of different scales interact with each other
3:48 does anyone know the name of the game???
best part of the video was the ff6 music. that being said, the rest of the video was fantastic too
I’m working on a semi open world RPG with a heavy focus on a feedback loop of exploring to find dungeons to get weapons to find more dungeons to get more weapons to prepare for main dungeons to up the world level and progress the story to get more weapons
Most of the systems feed back into encouraging the player to explore to find new dungeons for more unique weapons.
Idk I’m always switching to games but I actually come back to them. I always am going through a cycle of playing 3 or 4 games at once to fulfill different experiences I enjoy. Maybe I’ll play final fantasy then a shooter to a platformer ect.
Shorter more enjoyable loops are the reason I have like tens of indie rougelikes (but not only) games in my library and maybe 1 or 2 bigger games. I can't get bothered to try and chip at 40+hour open world game when I can have a satisfying session in 20-30 minutes and decide if I wanna play more or not. Games like Enter the Gungeon, Slay the Spire, Into The Breach, Crypt of Necrodancer, Spelunky, Dead Cells and many more.
Dontchu ever, EVER hate on Sonic Adv I/II again... that being said great video a lot of info. Seems like a combo of great Gameplay loop, juice and smooth animation is the way to success, instead of focus on music, story, art etc
Who else paused underway to see what games he had?
Yo thx for helping me figure out why I couldn't help playing destiny 2 but wasn't enjoying it at the same time
6:55 hey you just summed up scarlet and violent like 2 years before scarlet and violent
Great breakdown and great video!
I played destiny 2 for about 1000 hrs throughout the years, and I loved the story and all that... but the only thing retaining me past when I finished the newest campaign or whatever was that time period they give you to get the best loot that’s just long enough so I can get my new loot before the next story is released but not too long that I can go take a break. And if you can’t take a break from destiny it gets really boring
Anyone know what game is at 5:06?
I don't see it in the description of the video.
It's Steamworld Quest!
this looked almost like an episode of Game makers toolkit
Inspired maybe, but gameplay loop is a well established concept so it is very possible that they are unrelated, also the videos are different enough
Games with good/fun gameplay loops with a longer/meta loop for longer term, is hard to find.
I can count them on 1 hand.
But the boring gameplay loop games are limitless. It's such a simple concept but idk if people emphasize on it enough
See also gmtk's "keeping players engaged"
Fantastic video! you are an absolute master!
Love the Bobby Kotick cosplay you put on your avatar. XD
People getting lost or not knowing what to do next is probably on top of reasons why people put game away. People need some directions and goal, otherwise they don't see a point to do anything. Despite thinking that Pokemon is very open world, it basically has same simple gameplay loop as other games:
Catch new pokemon
Train them to be strong enough to beat next opponent (usually Gym Leader)
Beat strong opponent
Repeat
Usually there are some obstacles that force us to explore and get stronger like Gym Leader not being inside the building or you needing to learn how to cut through bush before accessing the Gym or learning how to smash rocks, swim, dive. All of it is part of the loop and we love loops. We love patterns and we love stories. As long as we have something to learn from it, it's challenging but not too hard to feel helpless, it should be fun. Graphics don't matter too much, I still had fun playing Pokemon Blue/Red like 2 years ago. As long is style is consistent, somehow appealing and graphics tell what you need to know, you are good to go.
Pathologic 2 has such a long gameplay loop that I can't find the motivation to come back to it compared to other 2019 games I want to complete.
Just wanted to say I really enjoyed seeing the Sonic Adventure 2: Battle B-roll.
I've never been able to enjoy the core loop of MMOs.
MMOs are kind of a relic from a past era, when people had huge amounts of free time, and weren't drowning in content like we are now. It's hard to justify the time sink.
I'd recommend Folding Ideas' recent video on classic WoW, it's really insightful.
@@LimeyLassen I mean even back when they were new, I couldn't enjoy the core loop. Not just the amount of time investment, but the mechanics of combat that changes fairly little.
The gameplay may be slow and stale but the multiplayer aspects and community interaction bring the games themselves to another level. Seriously if you get yourself involved with lots of players you'll find yourself relying on each other for getting things done. Also they are randomness incarnate, with random outcomes to attacks, random loot, random people you meet in the world and random friendships/enemies made along the way, playing through the game on another class offers a different experience too.
@@cattysplat you DID get the main point of this video, right?
The core loop of mmos is much less effective without actively being involved in a community, or playing with friends imo. Im pretty sure most mmo players (myself included) enjoy the social aspect of mmos much more than the actual gameplay. Its surprising how much more fun you can derive playing with others, even if the core itself is kinda lame.
On my 1000th lap on this video working as our game dev head. Ha ha
Good work 😂
I think this video should have a follow up on story focused RPG-s. I wanted to replay both Legends of heroes trails in the sky and Dragon Age Origins but I never got around to finish them even though my first playthrough was a blast on both occasions. Yet I still see some people going around and starting their 40th replay and I never understand it.
Finally, someone like me who played through the whole story of Destiny 2 and the first DLC and then I decided I actually hate it.
Destiny 2's progression loop is actually pretty bad, because it's actually faked. Up until New Light, all power level and character level actually was was just an arbitrary gate to content. The post game basic loop is even worse: you're expected to just repeat those same activities over and over in hopes of getting new/better guns or armor. But all of it leads towards raids. Technically, raids are more of the same - just working towards more/better loot - but they are actually fantastic because they have real gameplay depth: they have different encounters with unique (generally well thought out and not just gimmicky) mechanics that require actual other people, communication/coordination, oftentimes practice, along with unique environments/atmospheres, lore bits, and pacing structure. If you've never tried to raid, you've never gotten what's intended out of Destiny (1 or 2). That is, unless you prefer PVP (the loop being IMO extremely boring but intended as a mastery of skill: outduel others until you fail, respawn, repeat).
I've tried Raids, they're okay but my main issue is that while the gunplay in general is pretty good, the guns themselves are shit. The exotics never feel that special and the regular guns don't feel very different from one another. I felt like the decision to force you to choose between shotgun, rocket launcher, grenade launcher, sword, and sniper was needlessly forced. With them limiting you to one exotic I really wanted an exotic to make you feel powerful, at least in PvE, but every time I got a new one it was underwhelming. The most fun setup I had was using the Fighting Lion because then at least the energy slot and kinetic slot felt like they actually had a meaningful difference.
Subbed as soon as I heard the overworld music from Final Fantasy VI
Basically:
Primary loop: The thing your player is trying to achieve on a second by second basis. This is where a lot of the polish should be. For example, in doom it’s shooting enemy’s and exploring the level.
Secondary loop: The thing your player is trying to achieve on a minute by minute basis. It’s usually done by completing many of the primary loops. For example, in doom, it’s killing/exploring everything in a level.
Tertiary loop: The thing your player is trying to achieve on a hour by hour basis. It’s usually done by completing many of the primary and secondary loops. Once your player completes on of these, they should feel like they’ve truly achieved something. For example, in doom it’s completing every level.
The more I think about gameplay loops the harder of a time I have trying to fit them into RPG games like Outer Worlds... I can get as far as "Get Quest -> Do It -> Repeat" but that just feels so ambiguous to fit every RPG game ever. Do RPGs just rely on being a disorganized mess to distract you from the simple quest-grind loop? Do I have any idea of what I am talking about?
I mean, thats the loop that gets you to go somewhere. The reward to it is also important.
Then once you go somewhere you shoot people and loot them, thats also a loop. You get EXP to increase your character level and get new things/get better. Thats presumably also a loop.
what rpgs have you played?
Realizing partway through a Destiny 2 DLC that you don't actually enjoy the game is such a mood
Did anyone even noticed that He pats the dog?
Liked this video. There's a lot of games I love but the initial gameplay loop is offputting or a slog so I don't end up playing them. Examples include death stranding, they are billions, the long dark, sekiro, prey and even destiny 1 and 2 back when I had them. These all have either long gameplay loops or setup phases or lack of meaningful progress within a session that means that I can't do much and so get put off from even playing them. For all its negatives skyrim Is such an easy game to dip into. I haven't got outer worlds but it doesn't seem like the gameplay loop is very satisfying, it's more about the story and choices that keep people interested and not the do anything any time you want thing. Similarly I played a demo for dishonored 2 and atleast the initial bits it doesn't feel like you can do that much.
I don't know if this is to do with my depression or just generally the gameplay loops not fitting with how I am but it is worth thinking about.
Great Vid Adam
I would like to ask you what contacts you tackled on destiny because there are so many things to do that it’s very hard to get stuck in a game play loop
I WISH I had a library of unfinished games...
No at this point I have a steam (and switch, and several other things, like GOG and stuff) library full of things I've bought but never even started up even once...
ugh. It's crazy what things are like these days. XD
I own multiple supergiant games by the way, but I've only played one...
And... I didn't finish it. ;p
This explains playing Civ5 on and off for years.
Thanks mate for this vid, I'm a indie game dev and thanks to this video I can make better games.
I used to have a big problem with not finishing games, so I developed a new policy.
I play one game at a time and I stick with it until it is finished. If I don't feel like continuing a game, I make a decision regarding whether I want to finish it. If I decide not to finish it, I leave it with no intention of coming back to it. If I decide to finish it then I stick to it before moving on to something else.