The Real Core Loop - What Every Game Has In Common - Extra Credits
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
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We've talked about specific core loops of games before, but there's a core loop that every game shares: The Real Core Loop. Very creative name, I know. But understanding this loop can help reveal what kind of game you're creating & how to minimize frustration on the player's end.
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Loops within loops within loops... What game have you played with a really satisfying core loop? How did that fit into the real core loop? Is it a one-to-one match or is it focusing on a specific part of the real core loop?
Lmaoo what a face
Yahtzee actually talked about it recently in his game dev series, i think
Fell Seal Arbiter's Mark. It's Final Fantasy Tactics with the serial numbers filed off. Failure usually teaches you how to do better without ruining the experience, and the loop allows you the option of either finding a better strategy or grinding a stronger character.
A indie game called LLama hotel (yes it is spelled like that)
Zoe is so cute irl :3
If your loop has an unskippable cutscene between failing and trying again, you are evil.
If you have an unskippable cutscene you are evil. Period.
The amount of times I've seen certain final fantasy cutscenes is absurd.
Truth
"Forget it. There's no way you're taking Kairi's Heart!" *shudders*
Or cutscene QTEs that game over you if you can't mash hard enough. AHHHHHHH.
I never knew Zoey was a real cat, and I'm so happy.
She's even cuter irl😀
I am guessing she's been a few cats, it's a long running serious and killing off Zoey would be dark af
seeing that voice coming out of an actual human face discomforts me in a way I can neither understand nor explain
Its because you're not accustomed to seeing the human faces behind the cartoons. Luckily, this is remedied by regularly watching thier Twitch streams.
Uncanny valey... In reverse!
It's the unsteady camera and extraneous head movement.
I guess it helped that Dan used to raise the pitch of his voice in editing, except when he appeared live on camera?
Yea, I immediately skipped over it on pure reflex.
In military science, this is the OODA loop, or observe, orient, decide, act. One goal is breaking the enemy's ability to complete the loop, resulting in inappropriate action. By acting faster, the opponent becomes confused because the situation has changed before they have even finished processing the last set of circumstances. The obvious extension to game design is that forcing the player to react to faster, changing, or even multiple streams of data and actors using their own OODA loop increases the challenge without just buffing an enemy's stats.
Importantly, the OODA loop is a learning loop. Your game has to teach the player as it increases in challenge.
Carlos Caro thanx
thats brilliant
Yup, this shows up in virtually every decision-making loop. "Design thinking" and "agile development" all work this way, too.
Guys this loop has a name, it's the scientific method...
Maybe they though it would sound arrogant spelling it out, while anyone that knows the method would get it right away. Hopefully, this approach will make some "unscientific troll" understand and like this "game loop method", incorporate it in their life and, in a near future, understand it is all science after all.
Exactly what I was thinking. The steps he describes at the beginning are pretty much just directly copied from the introductory Biology textbook from high school.
I'd argue that its a little deeper than that. "Science, noun: the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment."
Exactly, just use logic. The only problem is that people think in different ways, so their logic could be different, flaw and heavily bias, that is if they use logic at all, several will skip steps, if not all the proces altogether, god know how Manny just repeat several times expecting a different result.
Congratulations, you've progressed more than the entire American education system has in 30 years
Basically the core loop is just a target for the scientific method and good games teach us to apply the method without telling us we have to apply it.
SCIENCE IS FUN!
Now we know why Matt's facial animation in the intro was so exaggerated, he was telegraphing an attack on Zoey... Good to see she picked up on the visual cue and her counter attack was effective based on that audio cue.
Where do I actually send treats to Zoey?
The timing of Zoey turning her head and meowing at 00:18 could not have been more perfect.
Encounter an enemy
Scan that enemy
Look for elemental weaknesses
Cast strong spells
Run out of spell slots
Run from the battle
Learn status junction atk
Synthesise 100 Deaths
Junction Deaths to Squall's status atk
Get bored of ridiculously easy battles
Things like... *Medusa*
_Terraria PTSD kicks in_
Castlevania flashbacks*
frenchiveruti *Fate Stay Night PTSD kicks in.*
Master of the Iyokian monsters why would you have PTSD from Stay Night Medusa? She's adorable.
(I mean, just play Hollow Ataraxia. so cute.)
KittyShipperCaveGirl it’s from the many and horrible ways she ends up dying.
Master of the Iyokian monsters alright, that's fair
DOOM has the best core loop in gaming history: Rip and Tear
RIP AND TEAR YOUR GUTS
@Aiden Rutske The Doomguy
I'm so glad they made the thumbnail a pic of Sam & Max! It makes me happy that someone on the Extra Credits team knows them.
Holy sh...!!
What were those flesh monsters in the beginning of the video?! Do they eat cartoons?
I'm so glad you made this video because i've seen TONS of new games struggle with some part of this loop. And it is always extremely frustrating. Either there isn't enough info, or the feedback is lacking, or formulating your goal is hard... I think this is a very important design fundamental that many games lack.
Excellent video, it's a good explanation for why failing over and over in some games feels fine where in others it can be infuriating or just discouraging.
Gothic 1 and 2 has one of the best loops in a game i have ever seen.Even if you do the same thing 3-4 times, each time it feels different and it always is so much fun finding the information you really need to complete a quest by yourself.
SAM AND MAX: FREELANCE POLICE!!!
Oh my gosh, Zoey meowed perfectly, my heart melted, I love her!
Must give treats to Zoey
@Aiden Rutske Must give treats to Zoey
Must give treats to Zoey
I love how this channel chose Sam and Max for when they mentioned point & click adventure games. Feels like the duo defined/pioneered the genre.
9:06 The method described is a conundrum for classic adventure game mechanics. If you give "enough" feedback that the player _never_ gets lost, there is no challenge left in those kind of games. We had this discussion at the concept phase of our current project and we couldn't get to a satisfactory conclusion nor could we find one in essays of well known adventure game writers, so we didn't really reach one... Do you make your AG accessible or do you leave some (or more) "puzzling" for the player to figure out? I feel that's kinda the catch22 the AG fell into.
I think the answer is: playtesting, playtesting and some more playtesting
I think the solution is that you need to tell your player what the're shooting for, but not how to get there. In golf, you have a bright red flag to show you where to shoot for eventually, but you leave it up to the players how to get around the bunkers and water hazards on the way.
Is that helpful?
I think this can be distilled down to: problem solving. Games are almost entirely about facing problems and solving them. Aside from visual novels and very artsy "experience games", there are very, very few games that aren't fundamentally based on encountering and solving problems. The nature of those problems and how they're solved is where most games differ, and usually the difference between a good game and a bad one.
Hey! I just wanted to thank you guys for doing this videos. I know the are meant for helping people develop games, but lately I been showing them to my girlfriend. Unlike me she's not a long time gamer, but she wanted to get in to it because it's a big part of my life. Something she struggles with is understanding the language of games which means she often get stuck in places I think the next step is obvious.
Your videos have helped her understand how games communicate what you should do, making my interest in games, our interest in games.
Tip, often try going back to step 1 rather than step 3. Sometimes changing up your objective can mean success. Maybe instead of figuring out how to shoot your way past enemies, you sneak or blitz past them. Moving the Goalpost: it's not just for politicians.
I've been trying to tell others about this exact same concept for years! But no one ever listens, because I'm not a professional game designer. I've never even studied game design. I've merely learnt all of my knowledge from observation while playing, observation when making small hobby games, and from various RUclips vids. So what do I know? Apparently a lot.
Nice to have it all confirmed though.
I would love to see a deeper dig into the line between "the core loop" and "the scientific method" with regard to engagement, pedagogy, and game design.
As far as I've ever been able to tell, the game core loop */is/* the scientific method. You're just using it to solve a different problem than you normally do in science.
0:20 you guys are are so adorable
Objective: Fashion!
Process: Beat a monster to death with a giant tuba on a stick, and use its body parts to make a hat.
sam and max is an instant click
Yep. I actually, just last night, finished replaying S&M Hit the Road - his criticism is fairly on point.
Fun fact for anyone who doesn't know. Sam & Max not only had a comic book put a TV show
Dbap true.. I kinda wanted to know more about how theses principles Do apply to making a point and click style game
@@jmkit I think mark brown's video on them is a good starting point.
@@gustavowadaslopes2479 Thanks for the heads up for that channel
glad to finally be able to see the man behind the awesome voiceover.
Who knew thaat 4th grade science class was actually teaching me how to be the final boss.
I can’t remember if I saw this episode when it was first published, but now that I’m watching it, this pairs well with the Difficult vs. Punishing episode.
"Failure shoulnt be too punishing or feel like a chore to get back" tell that to roguelike games where failure is met with perma death and start from character creation. And yet many people still find them fun and enjoyable.
“My mind is a swirling miasma of scintillating thoughts and turgid ideas.”
“Me too!”
0:17 This video deserves a like just for this.
a great aspect of gaming that truly lets us grow not just as players but as people and really is what makes me love games so much the game in my mind that exemplifies this the most has to be super meatboy just cause it immediately lets you jump back in right away to find the right answer and always gives you a good idea what you did wrong without making mistakes feel so bad
i cant believe people still remember Sam & Max after all this time. really shows how people loved the series
So Fallout 3/Skyrim's loop... Kill, loot, fast travel to town, wait through loading screen, find venders, buy everything weightless, sell what little you can, run to other vendors, sell what little you can, fast travel to other town, walk to kitchen and back, rescue your character from auto-aggro baddy that started attacking before you got to the remote, kill, loot, find venders, try selling things to vendors, look at the time, hate life, wonder aloud what you did to deserve a game that you love playing but that doesn't respect you as a person, wonder if this is a pattern in your other relationships....
No interesting choices or challenge, so you never learn or improve in any way
You're basically describing an OODA loop. Considering disrupting the other guy's OODA loop is how you fuck them up and beat them, yeah, it makes sense that a smooth OODA loop is the core to any good game.
His face looks like really energetic Muppet come to life, it's mesmerizing
I'm an undergrad student at a CS course, and this semester one of my professors has been kind enough to take me in as TA. I've gotten some complaints, and it's all about the speed and quality of my feedback to the students.
I'm quickly coming to realize that I've been doing college _wrong._ I've mostly worked through assignments solo, asking for TA feedback only when I've become stuck, or when work was done.
The feeling of wrongness has been mounting for a while now, but this video helped me realize that I need to revise my approach.
its pretty cool to look at this concept from a fighting game perspective. It really feels like when I did not get how they worked I did not really got the core loop, and after learning about concepts like overheads, cross-ups, jump-in vs fireball and frame traps the core loop became far more aparent and atractive
Props for using Sam & Max in your thumbnail! I wasn't sure there was anyone who still remembers the S&M franchise!
I feel like this explains really well why I didn't like dark souls, in how the core loop is often broken by a long trek to the boss that just killed you, the unclear reasons for failure (did you mistime your dodge or are you dodging the wrong way or are you under leveled, etc), and the vague macro goal for half the game (the game just tells you to kill everyone without explaining why until halfway throughout the game, and even then they don't tell you why you or your character should be motivated to do this). I'm glad someone was finally able to put this into words
Excellent video, Thanks for this. It helped me understand the differences between the main macro loop of a game, and the players core loop.
Zoey looks a lot like my cats. Love seeing her on camera for real! Great video!
Thank you for giving us the chance to influence the future of "Extra Credits" by listening to our opinions with your surveying initiative.
1:15 you just described the OODA loop
I think moving the checkpoints nearer to the bosses also is a design decision related to the difficulty of the bosses and how they are brought down. In the older From games, the bosses were sort of tactical puzzles that you had to crack and then just keep up the nerve to execute a proper rinse-repeat cycle. Defeating them in 1 - 5 tries could be reasonably expected. The "tedium" of fighting back to the boss may actually serve to help you reflect on how your approach if you die to encounters designed that way. In later games, the emphasis is on perfectly timed moves with fast reflexes against bosses that are heavier on RNG than crackable puzzle, so they need to be defeated by a lot of iteration and mastery of their movesets and timing windows. That style calls for more supermeatboy checkpoint placement
Well, this really highlighted the issues that caused me to not bother learning fighting games. I completely flubbed on the gather information part, which in turn made the rest of the steps ineffective at best.
University of Waterloo is in Waterloo, quite far from Toronto. A 90 minute drive. Longer on public transit.
Why did you say that if it has nothing to do with the video?
Half-Life, Half-Life 2 and Portal are really good at explaining how and what to do. And what happens with various things. It's due to how Valve designed their games in the first place.
Like in Half-Life when you first see the soldiers. A scientist runs up and asks for help. The soldiers, shoot the scientist and kill him. Without a clear cutscene or outright message of what is going on, you can learn "Soldiers, Not friendly to you."
The medusa drawing was great!
I actually had this core loop break down for me while playing Hollow Knight. At a certain point I defeated the Watcher Knight, went up to the Dreamer ... and I couldn't do anything. After this, I just wandered around until I accidentally got the dream nail, an item you can apparently get much, much sooner than I did. If I had gotten this before, I at least would have known what my intermediate goal was, something which I was lacking for most of my first run of this game. Luckily, the atmosphere of this game enticed me enough to keep on playing and exploring every little nook and cranny.
triplehood I have that core loop in BotW. Fuck those field bosses.
If the game has nested loops, do not let lower level loops block players when they want to resolve a higher level loop.
The most obvious example of this is a Final Fantasy type RPG. The player wants to progress the story and knows they have to talk to someone. Was it the king? The mage? Their mother in the first area? However, they aren't sure which. If they have to go through endless random encounters, they are likely to give up. The lower level loop of fighting enemies has become a tedious distraction from the higher level loop of progressing the story.
For similar reasons, do not have random encounters interrupt a player solving a puzzle.
Love your eyeopening video
Looking forward for your next game jam
It should be mentioned that "making sure" objectives are always clear on a micro-scale can be taken too far. Constant flashing arrows, fairies yelling "hey!" and excessive information given away unprompted can feel like hand-holding. Getting lost and finding your way through observation and information gathering can be very satisfactory.
At 6:14 I repeatedly died deliberately in Tomb Raider to see these.
I think the Monster Hunter series does this communication SUPER well. See monster, learn monsters moves, murder monster, harvest their parts to make new pants, realize you need 10 more butts, go back to murder monster until you have what you want, and finally go to the next monster. Super clear and never changes throughout the game.
That cat melts my heart everytime it squeaks.
This is one of the best non science explanations of the scientific method I have seen.
Slow-mo death review is something that enter the gungeon could use... I'm over 200 hours in and never beat the fourth floor...
Wait, I've heard this before: "Short Iteration Cycles Are Your Friend."
...when are you guys going to make more Design Club? As a lifelong hobbyist game designer (who's gearing up to use Extra Life as a time to *make* a game instead of just *play* a game), I really appreciate seeing the game levels, moves, and concepts I've grown up with dissected so I can understand the pieces that I've never thought about. The SMB episode was quite the eye-opener!
Dead By Daylight has fairly obvious loops
Survivor:
Major: Escape alive by leaving through an exit gate or hatch
Minor: Repair generators to power said exit gates
Micro: Run from the killer, sneak around them, save a teammate, etc
Killer:
Major: Sacrifice all 4 survivors
Minor: Get the survivors into the dying state by hitting them or using your ability
Micro: Chase a survivor, set up traps, slow progress, etc
Awwww Zoey is so cute
You can see this loop used differently between what I categorize as "levels" and "bosses".
"Levels" like dungeons tend to be less stringent on perfect play, instead challenging the player's endurance to endure a long series of challenges without making too many mistakes. This is one reason why many RPGs feature MP as a precious resource that you have to balance between damaging and healing abilities.
"Bosses" challenge the player with less room for error in a more rapid series of challenges that generally take less time to overcome. Maybe it's just me but I feel like the Souls series has made their bosses more sturdy as a result of having bonfires nearby, to make them stand out more as their own unique set of challenges rather than a climax to the endurance run of the level.
Then there are long tests of endurance featuring a rapid series of strict challenges. Those should usually be reserved for when the player is ready to have a bad time. ;)
The animation was amazing this time again!
Please make a Hitchiker’s guide to the Galaxy Extra Sci-fi! The world building and scale are too good to ignore!
Three cheers for Sierra Death Scenes!
This nicely describes the problem I was having with the new Link's Awakening. I never played the original, so I didn't know ahead of time how to deal with the bosses. I found that there was very little feedback to distinguish between failing to use a weapon properly and using the wrong weapon. Almost every battle was just "Pick weapon x, and spam it", but it was often not clear whether I'd picked the wrong weapon or if I'd just whiffed on using it.
This core loop also applies to getting homework done or doing a job. If you’re frustrated at work or school, see if your core loop is broken and if you can do something to fix it. Your TA or coworkers are usually happy to help with that if they have time.
Outstanding content. Thanks a lot! :D
I clicked on this video purely for Sam & Max. Such a great game.
It's been so long sense I've seen this show...
amazing game dev video thanks guys
This reminds me of a discussion I once had with someone on Steam about the question if "Walking Sims" should be considered games or not.
And while this classification might not be useful or necessary, the discussion led me to really think about what a game, at its core, is. I only remember that I came up with something that has similar assumptions like this core-loop model, as for these steps to make sense, you need your interactive medium to have
a) a challenge that
b) can be failed.
At least, that is how I understood it now.
And that raises, at least for me, the question again: With this model in mind, should walking sims be considered a "game"? Can a interactive medium be a "game" without this loop? As the title says "What Every GAME Has In Common"...
Every gamer at some point: "HOW was I supposed to know THAT!?"
Oh, you were supposed to buy the hint book.
Ah, so it's basically the Scientific Method.
Still, very important to realize that people need to do this to overcome challenges in games.
I also love that version of Midna's Lament at the end there.
Talks about issues with point and click games not giving clear cut directions.
Shows Sam and Max.
I feel that in my core.
It's interesting thinking about this in terms of grand strategies, especially ones with so called "ironman" modes, arguably the "fail, repeat, succeed" doesn't always exist here, and often they'll feel more integrated into achieving a greater goal than I see more discrete such loops in other games.
Cool to see sam and max
This is great, it illustrates how Path of Exile fails on so many fronts.
This is my #1 pet peeve in games: not knowing what to do or where to go next
That Sekiro shit had me dying lol
Somebody give that cat an Oscar.
Haha this is like the best way to make feel life is worth it
It’s the game loop!
@3:00 - Could you imagine a 2D Mario game where you could dive-kick on enemies?
Anyway, good basic knowledge needed to create a core loop.
*looks at Mario Maker 2 3D World mode
👀 Hmmmmm...
I’m so used to the cartoon character that when you show your face IRL in the video it feels like the character is talking and not you
OK. Your Master Chief in corridor looks weirdly similar to Metal Gear Awesome by Egoraptor.
That's a compliment BTW.
But really though.. what use is a rubber chicken with a pulley in the middle?
You could bean someone on the head with it pretty effectively.
Dunno why but that glowing door reminded me of dmc3
imma be fair, medusa is adorable in that image
SAM AND MAX
FREELANCE POLIIIIIIIIIIIIIIICE
First happily watched every video!
Love you’re voices
Can I just take a moment to appreciate seeing your real human/cat faces?? 😍
Darkest Dungeon is an example of failing to account for the identify the objective and threats.
Player: OK letsa go finda treasure
Random monster: RAWR BOI RAWR