244. The Murder of Robert Wone Part 5
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- We conclude our coverage of the Robert Wone case with our theories. And we hear lots of zebras.
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I’m an ER doc- and I’ve used succinylcholine hundreds or thousands of times because I intubate patients constantly (although there are better drugs we use now). Succinylcholine is not EVER going to be a recreational drug. It is a PARALYTIC. You have about 60-90secs before you paralyze the muscles you need to maintain your airway and breathe. You don’t get “high”- you don’t “relax”- your entire body is a corpse that doesn’t move. When we intubate patients, we use a combination of a sedative or sedatives AND a paralytic, because you can imagine how terrifying it might be to be paralyzed but not sedated. It would be like “locked-in” syndrome where your brain is entirely awake and you can’t blink, breathe, open your eyes, scream, NOTHING. Absolutely inhumane.
I seriously doubt anyone who wasn’t trying to kill someone would steal succinylcholine. And honestly- while it is on a crash cart, it’s not really “lying around”- all of the drugs on a crash cart are locked in, and a seal has to be broken on an entire box of drugs. I’m not saying it can’t be stolen, (as Alice mentioned, during a code or if there’s concern a patient is about to crash, things can get chaotic) but anyone who knows ANYTHING would know that this drug is essentially a death sentence if you inject it and can’t secure an airway and mechanical ventilation. There is no recreational use for it. If someone KNEW the properties and stole it to inject in someone, it was because they wanted to kill them AND they are extremely sadistic and wanted that person to suffer- to be alive, locked into a paralyzed body and unable to move while they suffocated. I don’t think that’s what we’re dealing with here. Maybe, but that’s far far darker than what I think actually happened here.
Also training as a phlebotomist would not get you access to succinylcholine, nor would your training tell you what it even does. I say this because I trained as a phlebotomist and an EMT in college before I went to med school. No way would you be dealing with these meds. No way would you be around during a code. Phlebotomists ONLY job is drawing blood and labs and their “scope of practice” does not involve giving medications. AT ALL. Codes can get chaotic, I won’t doubt that (and I know it depends heavily on the department, the hospital, the team, etc), but when I run a code I know everyone in their and their role- it might look chaotic, but the nurses know their jobs, the techs, the respiratory therapists, the residents, the med students, the radiology techs. It might not happen during a code, but we know medication theft happens. I’ve just never ever heard of anyone stealing succinylcholine. You’d have to have a death wish.
I agree with your assessment (as someone who has seen 1000+ victims of stabbings) that Robert must have been incapacitated. I’m far more inclined to believe that it was something else (not succinylcholine- although if someone did this to him, it would absolutely kill him and paralyze him and if it wasn’t their intention, they’re just dumb AF b/c anyone who has ever seen succinylcholine used knows people STOP BREATHING and lose their airway).
It is far more likely in my opinion that there was some other drug on board that was missed by toxicology. GHB comes to mind (it can disappear within hours) or some other dissociative. I’ve seen patients be catatonic on some drugs and not respond to pain. Although the clear tox screen is intriguing (also if he had a drink, but his BAC was zero?).
I don’t know- maybe some idiot who had no idea what he was doing did steal succinylcholine, but it feels absurd to me because in order to even KNOW what it is and how it is used, you’d know that it completely shuts down a person’s body and unless you were planning to intubate them and provide mechanical ventilation, they WILL die, quickly.
I can’t possibly fathom what happened here- if it was a SA gone wrong, but I fully believe the stabbing happened after he was dead or nearly dead as part of the “cover up”- because the fact that there as no blood ANYWHERE means he wasn’t bleeding and his heart was probably barely beating or not at all when he got stabbed (even if it wasn’t technically post-mortem, I think it was close).
The timeline here is wild to me and I wonder if he was there earlier than he said, and also the fact that in all of these years there were at least three people who know what happened and they were able to keep their mouths shut so despite the fact everyone knows they were involved, they haven’t been able to prosecute this. Impressive.
I can’t seem to wrap my head around a motive. I don’t even fully believe that SA was what was on the agenda. It doesn’t make any sense. This entire case is wild, and while I’m not a legal expert- your medical forensic analysis regarding succinylcholine didn’t make sense at all.
No one is going to “abuse” it (which I know you acknowledge) because it doesn’t shut off your brain. People take drugs to relax or get some kind of effect in their brain body. It literally just paralyzes your body and you stop breathing and die. You won’t get high or feel relaxed. We give sedatives and dissociative alongside this med so that people aren’t in distress when their body doesn’t move (no one wants to be conscious for that)- in fact, when we’re intubating, we almost always push the sedatives first, and THEN we push the succinylocholine (or rocuronium more often). There are certain instances when we don’t, but overwhelmingly we don’t give a paralytic before a sedative because if they have part of them that feels things and is conscious or semiconscious, it is just cruel. There’s no pain relief with it, it just paralyzes your body.
I can’t imagine the terror and sadism needed to purposely push succinylcholine into a person knowing they won’t be able to breathe or maintain their airway and their mind is entirely awake. Absolute sadism. I know y’all said they were into some kink and BDSM, but this is beyond consensual power exchange- what you’re talking about is knowingly murdering someone in a cruel way. That is beyond monstrous.
Accidental overdose with something else makes more sense, and I just wonder if it was something kind of “off the grid” that wasn’t in the tox panel. Maybe he had a reaction, they dosed it wrong, he stopped breathing & they panicked. No part of me thinks this was intentional, but I do feel like there was one person who orchestrated the entire cover up (quickly) and he was smart enough and had enough influence on the other people to keep their silence all of these years. Mind blowing!
This is 's a great read! From what you said, I'm thinking if it's possible that Joel/Dylan was given the succinylcholine (if it was indeed what incapacitated Robert) by someone who branded it as a sedative, and they or one of them did intend to use it as a sedative without knowing how it actually works (stop breathing etc.).
If Joel's brother, the training phlebotomist, was the one who stole the succinylcholine however he did it, he didn't know what the drug would do either and sold it to Joel/Dylan as a sedative and they (most likely Dylan) were dumb enough to believe in him... then there goes the tragedy.
Anyway... as someone in the BDSM scene, I gotta say recreational drug use is kinda common in the scene, esp at private parties, at least where I am, but mostly ketamine, MDMA etc.. It's possible they've done drugs prior to play before, but have no clue about succinylcholine or whatever they used that night.
@jennifery.6602 thank you so much for your post!!! I have been screaming inside each time succinylcholine is mentioned as if it would make Robert “unaware” of what was happening to him like a “date rape”drug. Horrifyingly, it would NOT make him unaware but would paralyze him while being fully aware of everything happening. Additionally he would be suffocating as it paralyzed his diaphragm and other muscles needed for respiration.
I too am a provider and have used
succinylcholine more times than I can remember in 30 years of practice. It is always used in conjunction with sedation! I’m glad you explained that succinylcholine is a paralytic only with no sedating properties. If anyone who knew the mechanism of action of this drug chose to use it on someone, it was as a murder weapon not a date rape drug.
I have no way of knowing if succinylcholine was used. It isn’t just lying about in a hospital. But I do know in a chaotic code situation where lab, X-ray, docs, nurses, respiratory….everyone is in the room, anything could easily be lifted. Often times you have to count the empty boxes to see how many amps of resuscitation drugs have even given so a vial of something missing could go undetected.
However it happened, this gentleman suffered a horrific death and unimaginable betrayal. Justice may not come on this earth but I believe it will come.
RIP sir!
I wanted to scream that Succ would NEVER be used recreationally by any medical staff.
YES!! ALL OF THE ABOVE!!! And I agree that it’s still possible that if the brother who works as a phleb in a hospital stole the Succs during a code in order to give it to his brother. Which means that this was planned. But I don’t think that murder was the plan; I think they drugged Robert so they could “play” {**which they had probably done to Robert during his previous visits/overnight stays **}with him without him knowing it happened. I’d lay money that one of those fuckwits was googling drugs that can be used to restrain or the likes. And maybe some misinformed article mentioned it so they tell his brother that they want Succs. And that is why the shit went down so fast. They were not expecting the results of the drug to be so powerful. I think all 3 of them stabbed him after the fact - 1. In order to stage as an intruder and 2. So they all are culpable to the crime. And that is why they have been able to muddy the waters just enough that the truth will only come out if one of them finds some decency to do the right thing.
I had a thought re-listening to your theories. If these two guys used that drug to paralyze him in order to commit sexual assault it means they HAD that drug in their home already. Why would you stock something like that in your home if not to use it for purposes like this? They would have had to be fairly confident that he wouldn't remember anything and that they would get away with it, meaning I think they've done this before and perhaps there are other victims.
RIP Robert, may you and your family find justice 🙏❤
I agree. Plus, I think it's irrelevant whether or not they intended to kill Robert by administering a drug. They killed him during the commission of a felony --- rape. To me, it makes no sense why they would decide to stab Robert to make it appear an intruder killed him. It would be less suspicious to report Robert unconscious by unknown means. The residents of the apartment only made themselves look far more suspicious.
That's an excellent point
@@polkadots716 You are correct. If the drug does not stay in the system very long and a toxicology report is negative it would have simply looked like a natural death. There was no need for the stabbing.
That’s an excellent point.
Absolutely fantastic assessment and it makes me feel like I actually finally have some satisfactory explanation to this case.
Absolutely sickened for Robert, his wife and all his family 🙏🏽💔
Satisfactory? A mysterious undetectable drug? They did more than the basic tox screen. Dylan wants out of the relationship so he decides to abuse the paralysed body of Joseph's friend? That's totally made up. Also, an incapacitaded man does not ejaculate.
There’s a difference between a sedative and a paralytic. If he was injected with succinylcholine, then maybe the person giving it to him didn’t know the difference either, and when he was paralyzed and stopped breathing, they panicked and stabbed him to make it look like something else. He would have been paralyzed, but completely aware. Not under sedation.
This is definitely possible. They stole what they thought was a sedative (or just really didn’t know the difference) and panicked when he stopped breathing. As I mentioned in my post, you’d have to be evil AF to give someone a paralytic without a sedative knowing their brain was wide awake, and they weren’t able to breathe or scream.
But I can see this as a mistake by someone who grabbed a bottle thinking it would “knock someone out” not knowing the properties. I still just think stolen succinylcholine is a WILD theory with absolutely no evidence.
My favorite crime podcast ever. Would you guys ever consider covering the Memphis 3?
Sure. Why not?
One of the issues I have with the accidental overdosing theory is that it seems so implausible that if you’re a smart, successful professional with everything to lose who is going through the trouble of obtaining a drug illegally and injecting it into someone that you wouldn’t also just Google what a safe dosage was.
Also, is this a drug you can just inject in your muscle and have it work instantly? Usually for drugs that are fast acting like that, you need to find a vein so it goes right into the bloodstream.
You are correct. How was the drug administered?
Pronounced: Suck-sea-null-ko-lean… Love a critical care nurse that adores y’all 🥰
Thank you! That's how I've been saying it in my mind. Pretty sure I heard it on Forensic Files or Unsolved Mysteries.
Since you are a critical care nurse I have a question for you. How is that drug administered? Is it IV or IM? Can it be given either way? Who would have access to that type of drug?
I'm about thirteen minutes into this one. I'm not aware of any pictures of male genitalia on my phone. I'm not aware of any female genitalia pictures on my phone. If they are there, they were put there without my knowledge or permission.
I'm pretty sure this is SOP for the FBI and/oe Federal Prosecutors to plant porn on the suspect's phone. In many cases, especially in the last 4 years, the PROCESS is the punishment. You may be found innocent after 5 years of pre-trial detention, all your savings gone on legal bills, your career derailed, and people thinking you run around with male genital pics on your phone.
What a pleasant surprise! Another episode! Thank you!!
If me or my boyfriend ever commit a crime I wish the police the best of luck with what they’ll find on our phones 😂😂
Thanks for the video.
I pretty much agree with your theory. Joe seems to have been obsessed with Dylan. Dylan seems to have thought that forcing Joe to take advantage of Robert was a way of proving loyalty. If Joe were a decent human being, he would have ended things with Dylan the moment Dylan suggested taking advantage of Robert. Instead, Joe is a pervert who was so enslaved to his perversion that he was willing to betray a long-time friend to maintain his relationship with Dylan even though Dylan was a selfish, worthless piece of trash. When Dylan told Joe to take advantage of a friend to prove his connection. Joe went along. When they thought that they had killed Robert, they tried to cover up the murder by inflicting wounds that eventually did kill Robert.
My harsh condemnation of Dylan and Joe is not about homosexuality. The world is full of homosexuals who have more integrity than these two have. The world is full of homosexuals who would never suggest taking advantage of a friend in order to prove loyalty. The world is full of homosexuals who would have kicked someone who made that suggestion of the house and out of their lives. The world is full of heterosexuals who would and have failed in these kinds of tests of character. I call them perverts and scum because everything points to them having done something evil to Robert and then to them killing Robert to cover that evil.
Very well said, agree 1000 percent and there truly is no other word for what they did than evil. Such a disturbing case.
Accurate assessment as far as I'm concerned.
There is something sinister going on here. Even the reason given for Robert’s overnight stay is suspect. It would only have taken him 30 minutes to drive home, and not much longer on the Metro. I agree with the chatter who said that Robert may have arrived at the house earlier than stated. Even half an hour would make a big difference to the timeline. I don’t believe that there was an intruder, and the succinochrolide theory is in no way plausible. Robert may have said something that seemed innocent to him, but which triggered the three. Finally, I believe that the three may have planned to commit ‘the perfect murder’ for kicks like Leopold and Lobe and created red herrings to confuse the investigators. I can only hope there might be a deathbed or conscience confession in the future.
I didn’t expect another episode!! What a treat!! This case makes my brain hurt
That picture of Robert with his wife…. They look like babies 😢
I don't understand why he was friends with these guys. They put up so many red flags for me. They seem selfish and arrogant and obviously they lived life on the edge. Robert just doesn't seem like the party boy type. I'm sad that he trusted them.
Robert and Joe were friends from years ealier. I think Joe's perversion (his interest in BDSM) was influenced and fed by his relationship with Dylan. Robert probably didn't know everything his old friend Joe was involved with. It's not uncommon in early adulthood for friends to go in very different directions, through different pursuits and influences and choices, and maybe not recognize the person their friend has become.
Not sure what your phlebotomist scope of practice is in your country, but here in Aus, they would have nothing to do with sux. They could steal it, but it wouldn’t have anything to do with their job per se.
I was JUST THINKING you guys might have posted this
You guys once again cleared up the murk and came up with a riveting, and likely mostly accurate, theory of events. It's indeed very hard to understand more how this went down without knowing the people involved, but your insight into that social world certainly gave it all an extra dimension. And yes, the friendship aspect of this upsets me also - but now I finally understand how this, that rare actual successful conspiracy, came to be. What a shitty, shitty thing to do.
Great theory!
I was wondering what the 3 guys financial situation was could they have drugged him to later blackmail him into a business deal?
I wonder if the ME kept any organ/tissue/blood samples from Robert's autopsy. No doubt drug testing has improved over the years and maybe there's a tiny chance something would be found. In the end, though, not sure that would help with anything because there is still the issue of who administered the drug. So frustrating. Someone in that group needs to man up.
There was another case where there was no evidence of an intruder... John something...it's on the tip of my thumbs...Hmmm...
This is such a strange case - it would have been much less strange if Victor had been killed. So, I think whatever over-the-top drama was happening in that thruple, poor Robert was the escape valve / scapegoat / substitute for killing the more obvious target, Victor.
I don’t get the planted knife theory. Why wouldn’t they just keep the knife they used. I think the only inconsistency was the length. If they thought he was already dead they may not have pushed in all the way to not get blood on their hands 🤷🏻♀️
Unfortunately, despite Alice pleading with the audience not to, seems the most popular theory on the Reddit fan page for the podcast is that Robert must have consented to something sexual, and there was some freak accident that killed him.
Unfortunately the assumptions underlying the theory is that it supposedly makes no sense for Joe to assault his friend. Implying that being raped by someone you know is really rare and most rapists target complete strangers. That's totally opposite actual rape statistics.
It's just so reminiscent of general excuses for rape, that it doesn't make sense that the perp would commit rape and risk arrest, or "what did she expect would happen when she went to that hotel room", etc.
Happy to see the consensus in this comment section is quite different.
I think the assault was planned by Joe and Dylan. It seemed like Joe would’ve flipped out on Dylan if he walked in on him violating his friend and he didn’t have anything to do with it. I think Joe made the quick decision to say it was an intruder when they mistakenly ended Robert’s life.
So tragic. Your theories make a lot of sense. This case is unusual but good investigators and a thoughtful medical examiner should have solved it. The only question in my mind: whose semen was inside Robert? Didn't they test for DNA?
Earlier episode states it was tested and it was the victim’s.
It still doesn't add up - all theories are based on the sexuality of the house occupants, and the very huge leap that failing bdsm sexual relationship can lead to violating your best friend. Add up the witness interviews of both Dylan and Joe, which seem truthful or like they are the worlds best liars. The risk of Robert waking up and the fall from that is monumental, for carriers and they had A CHILD they could lose. It is still the most likely scenario, but doesn't tick all of the boxes :( one of the angles nobody seem to investigate is -- if not the person, maybe the ROOM? What there was a robbery but the item stolen was something they could never admit having in the first place, which was stashed away in the study. And the intruder didn't expect to find an occupant there, and an eye witness, he could easy overpower him, make him unconscious fast with the professional pressure to carotids and then stab him from behind and placing on the bed. Point of the entry could be from the neighbor fence, there were the footprint marks on some sort of kids device there. A wild guess but the avenue that wasn't explored at all. From the first minute police was fixated on the sexuality and the weirdness and al of the imagination run wild with sex games and paralyzing drugs. On a workweek nigh.. with a best friend...
Robert was sexually assaulted, which indicates a sexual motive to the crime. Nor was he stabbed from behind, he was first assaulted and then stabbed in the chest with a knife from inside the home, without receiving any defensive wounds nor attempting to shield himself from the attack.
You're suggesting this alleged robber sought something specific from the guest bedroom where Robert was sleeping that night. This indicates the robber was familiar with the layout and contents of the house. They'd either visited the home before, or had an accomplice with intimate knowledge of the home. This robber walked past laptops and flatscreen tv's on the ground floor, passed the door leading to Dylan's bedroom without waking him, and entered the guest bedroom. Once they spotted Robert, their motive shifted from robbery to sexual assault. This robber brought with them a syringe of paralyzing drugs, which they entered the house with, just in case a witness stumbled upon them robbing. This intruder, instead of fleeing and trying again tomorrow or next week, manages to sexually assault a prone and paralyzed Robert without alerting Dylan sleeping in the next room, nor the next-door neighbors who were awake and watching tv. They then descend the stairs, took a knife from the kitchen, ascend the stairs and stabbed Robert three times for laughs. If you suggesting this robber entered the home without concealing his face, and needed to kill Robbert to eliminate a potential witness, please don't? After cleaning the blood from the room, they then descends the stairs again, having passed Dylan's room for the fourth time without alerting him or the couple sleeping on the third floor. This was the robbers first robbery, and his last because the defense lawyers found no reports of similar robberies in the area.
You're suggesting the robber stole something the homeowners don't want to admit to having? What in this world can be so embarrassing, that you'd rather be charged with conspiracy and obstruction of justice, than admit to having?
I agree that a lot of attention has been paid to the sexual activities of the suspects, which may or may not have been relevant. Regardless, the police investigated the crime scene for signs of an intruder. The pollen on the fence and windowsills weren't disturbed. No footprint was found on the neighbors sandbox, instead the cover was cracked and the defense argued this may have been caused an intruder standing on the cover in order to climb the fence. But remember, this supposed intruder cracked the cover but didn't disturb the pollen on the fence. Also, the neighbor isn't sure when the sandbox cover was cracked, it might have happened before or after the night of the murder.
Besides, the nature of Joe and Dylan's relation wasn't known to everyone, nor that there even was a relationship between them. Only close friends knew. But police were suspicious of them since the night of the murder, due to their strange behavior and contradicting statements. They weren't the worlds best liars, otherwise the police wouldn't have been so suspicious of them. I do think the occupants of the home are morally bankrupt to either hurt their friend, and then cover-up their murder.
I think he was dead when he was stabbed. Why there was no bleeding
I love you guys but y’all are naive about nudes.