As somebody who has worked on the SCATS traffic signalling system in Sydney and all over the world, I can tell you that you were spoiled for priority on this run. There are so many demands at each junction, and you have to realise that the central computers are juggling all the time to move vehicles, and pedestrians, as well as light rail, and in an efficient and safe manner. The central computer also has to count vehicles going in every direction, into, out from, and across the city, and to link adjacent junctions so as to minimize delays and that also includes the bus network which uses selective bus detection. There is also the matter of 'real priority' for emergency services. Trust me mate, you did really well on that run. The Sydney Coordinated Adaptive Traffic System (SCATS) is the world leader. The system is constantly adapting to traffic flows, reducing delays, and minimizing road accidents. I'm proud to have worked on this system, developed in Sydney since the 70s, which is the envy of the world and also used in almost 200 cities, including Melbourne. Go Aussie Go!
Thanks for your detailed inside knowledge. I was not aware of any assistance given to buses by SCATS, but rarely ride them so maybe did not notice. It sounds like you are no longer working in that field as changes have occurred gradually since the George St lines opened. But first, a bit of my background. From a young age I have always been interested in trams, rode some of Sydney’s before the last line closed in 1961, have visited Melbourne regularly since 1965 and was a tram driver there 1988-1994. Also I used to travel much of the world with tramways being the main focal point. From these trips I became aware that particularly in Germany and Switzerland, cars are considered the enemy of cities so public transport had minimal delays at traffic lights. This attitude was followed with the opening of the Gold Coast line (I am riding tram 16 right now) and Canberra where trams get the priority in normal circumstances. With the opening of George St, it appears to me that the SCATS operators have been dragged kicking and screaming into gradually giving trams priority at more and more locations on these 2 lines, and annual visits prove this. So the run you have just watched was little related to luck, although the assertive and fast driver helped as well. If you have contact with any former colleagues still on the job, they may be able to give extra details. I did the outbound journey preceding this, and the run was even faster. By the way, Melbourne has absolutely no locations where the arrival of a tram will initiate a change in a traffic light phase. The best they will do is insert a T light or Right Turn Green arrow to clear cars off the tram line, but only when a phase routinely was going to end anyway. And I am aware that SCATS has been marketed successfully overseas, the limiting factor being the intelligence of their local programmers.
I’ve always been fascinated with SCATS, I even got to see some of the back end when I was contracting to TPG who provided telco…… BUT I’ve noticed the A1 Pacific Highway in and out of Sydney seems to flow well, but the A15 in and out of Newcastle is shockingly bad, you seem to get every single traffic light if you at the lead of the pack and cars keep piling up behind you… there appears to a lot more effort put into traffic flows into Sydney vs Newcastle. It’s a shocker
@Tmm42s I used the Pacific north and south from St Leonard’s a few times recently and it had patches of OK running. Obviously a good or bad result is the competence of the computer programmers. At least bit by bit the Sydney trams have been given light priority although at times it seems sluggish. Look for my next video on Friday. It is an interesting comparison between a Sydney and a Melbourne tram ride. This was prepared and sent from Gold Coast tram 16.
@@Tmm42s SCATS is often a victim of its own sucess. The more efficient you make a junction, then the more people will want to use that junction. SCATS needs voting to be set up correctly so that progressions operate in the right direction, usually AM, or PM, depending on volumes. It's all about capacity, maintenance, and operators who know how to tweek the system and set up the basic parameters.
Another great video mate, just imagine how much more efficient it would be without most of those ridiculous speed limits and better priority signalling, then again the road users would be up in arms at being held up that extra 5 seconds...
You are probably right about all of that. However when the Gold Coast trams were introduced, this being a city that never had trams before, there was no complaint from the motorists about the trams getting absolute priority. However usually when that happens, at least one road phase is running at the same time.
Are new tram lines planed for Sydney? I read in Wikipedia that Sydney had until 1960 a big tram network that was about so large as in Melbourne at is best times
Sydney at its peak was considerably bigger than Melbourne, even at today’s size. At present they are converting the former Carlingford rail line to light rail. At the city end, it will head off to Westmead via Parramatta, but it will meander around a bit. Opening due sometime 2023. Carlingford line passengers have lost their direct trip to the city, not good.
@@tressteleg1 thank you. I believe the French have used an in-ground third rail system in several cities. A few USA cities use electricity from batteries or diesel6 power.
Yes. The APS system was developed for use in Bordeaux in France 20 years ago. The Sydney system has some modifications developed since then. A few other cities have adopted the system for at least part or some of their lines. Provided it is reliable, and on my visits it seemed fine, it is the dearest but also the most viable wireless system as it is not affected by batteries running flat on trams which may have been delayed. Capacitors is the most stupid method as it takes much too long to charge them at every stop.
I agree that there is less visual impact when the support poles are at the sides of the street rather than the center. I still question the need for the expense and complexity of ground-level power in the city center.
I’m fairly certain that it was Sydneys long time Lord Mayor, Ms Clover Moore who more or less stated that it was either no wires or no trams. Of the 3 different wireless methods, this APS is probably the best although it is almost certainly the dearest, especially with maintenance.
@@tressteleg1 it is now speculated that the opening has been delayed from early 2023 to late 2023 due to the rising costs of the remediation works at the depot i think.
@@tressteleg1 the site for the depot probably has quite a few contaminants from when the site used to be an industrial area or something that need cleaning up with care
Great video as usual. Thank you. The tram motors do seem to be a bit noisier than on prior videos of this equipment. Are they needing maintenance or just something I did not notice in the past?
Great video as usual Richard. I would find the travel speed far to slow for an inner city mass transit operation. The speeds should be comparable to the normal street speed. ( Long live Melbourne Trams. )
Melbourne is great, eh? In 33 minutes, the trip time of the Randwick L2, Melbourne‘s showpiece route 96 from East Brunswick towards Saint Kilda covers one less kilometre. Admittedly the line has more stops, but with a total lack of traffic light priority anywhere on the system, the delays at traffic lights are frustratingly tedious. I drove the 96 1988 to 1994, and since then, the journey has got slower and slower with next to nothing being done to assist trams through traffic lights. The normal tram speed in the streets of Melbourne seems to often be a relaxed 40 km/h or so, in some places mandated by speed limit signs, and sometimes because the driver knows that going any faster will make him early which will annoy his employer.
The driver uses his camera - I am never in the cab. I have done the metro in both directions. Here is the run to Tallawong: Front Window View North West Metro Chatswood to Tallawong Sydney ruclips.net/video/VF2Yz6vMZGk/видео.html
At some intersections on this line, an approaching tram causes the traffic lights to change in its favour. This is good public transport practice. However at some intersections tram priority has not been installed and I see that as a failure.
Sydney has interesting technology with coupled sets, APS and a few other things but my nearby GC tram covers 20km in 45 minutes compared with 8km in 30+ minutes. So you can guess from that 😊
I fully agree about that matter. I have been fighting the company for some time now, see video below. Yesterday I replied to an earlier email on the matter and told them they are an arrogant French company which DOES NOT think like a passenger. They won’t care. The Yap Yap Blah Blah Earbashing Gold Coast Tram with Comparisons ruclips.net/video/2yHvHle2YjM/видео.html
The speed limits are ridiculously low in some sections, i would find it very frustrating, having said that, Is there something I'm missing, why do they need to go so slow over points and will it really tip over if it goes around a corner at more than 30 k's, trams in amsterdam seem to be much quicker and they have bike riders all over the shop.
Blame the bureaucrats for the low speed limits, and in fact the need to install any limits at all. I did not think that these trams were particularly slow going over points, perhaps apart from the scissors crossover at Circular Quay. Trams would not tip over at speed, but with the long overhang beyond the wheel assemblies, and the fact that they do not have rotating bogies, besides tossing the driver around and probably some passages as well, hitting a curve too hard could possibly cause the front wheels to come off the tracks.
Unfortunately most low floor trams are cheap and nasty and do not have rotating bogies. I think Amsterdam has Siemens Combinos and they are the same. A big determining factor is the amount of overhang between the front pair of wheels and the front of the tram. The longer it is, the more easily it comes off the tracks and certainly a bump with a road vehicle is much more likely to derail one of these trams then any with rotating bogies. Melbourne E class do have rotating bogies.
Tram speed and road speed should be 60km on the whole of Anzac Parade. SCATS needs to be reprogrammed or something new traffic priority system needs to be implemented.
Yes Sydney has a bad habit of having stupidly low speed limits on quite important roads like Anzac Parade. And it seems to be policy everywhere that trams running in the street or next to it will have a speed limit no faster, the excuse being that if the trams go faster, motorist will be tempted to speed to keep up with them.
Agreed that the speed limits are pretty dumb. The 25km/h limit approaching stops doesn't make much sense. I guess it is a level crossing but it's protected by traffic lights so less dangerous. With SCATS, it still works. The system can actually detect trams approaching as shown by the white triangle lighting up. It's just not programmed to insert an additional cycle or anything. RTA (later RMS and now TfNSW) disabled public transport priority after the North West Tway opened and has never put it back.
I believe that neither the Transport Department nor the traffic authority really want trams on the streets of Sydney, and are not interested in helping public transport at all. So it is amazing that the line has as much priority as it has. All the Light Rail systems in Australia are micromanaged to a ridiculous degree, living under the delusion that they are trains and speeds must be determined for them in minute detail. Such speed limits are now popping up in places here and there in Melbourne, but whether their drivers will take any notice of them is another matter.
Great video though I’m not sure why you’re unhappy with lights prioritising pedestrians over a tram. The hierarchy goes pedestrians > cyclists > public transports > other motor vehicles
Up to a point, I agree with you. However if you are referring to the situation shortly after leaving Kingsford, by delaying the pedestrian crossing by about 10 seconds, the second tram could have got through and as it may well have been carrying a lot more than the handful of people crossing the road, in that case the tram should have priority. As it was, total delay to the tram was getting towards a minute and the slower that trams are, the less chance there is of winning people out of their cars into public transport.
25 or so seconds these days seems to be fairly common. At some locations, traffic lights extended the dwell times. However on some videos I have processed, Melbourne Z and B class dwells have been as low as 7 seconds. But they’re not hindered by the need for beeping or door close announcements.
You can’t go too much faster if pedestrians are allowed to straggle all over the place, but it should be up to the drivers to determine the speed according to the number of people around at the time. But today’s bureaucrats won’t allow that.
Too few stops for a true tram line. It’s built like a railway. Massive over engineering. Thousands of tonnes of concrete. Ridiculously slow. And too many announcements by that awful Karen voice.
Massive over engineering was the result of a government that did not know what it was doing giving the tick of approval to contractors who knew how to charge.
As somebody who has worked on the SCATS traffic signalling system in Sydney and all over the world, I can tell you that you were spoiled for priority on this run. There are so many demands at each junction, and you have to realise that the central computers are juggling all the time to move vehicles, and pedestrians, as well as light rail, and in an efficient and safe manner. The central computer also has to count vehicles going in every direction, into, out from, and across the city, and to link adjacent junctions so as to minimize delays and that also includes the bus network which uses selective bus detection. There is also the matter of 'real priority' for emergency services. Trust me mate, you did really well on that run. The Sydney Coordinated Adaptive Traffic System (SCATS) is the world leader. The system is constantly adapting to traffic flows, reducing delays, and minimizing road accidents. I'm proud to have worked on this system, developed in Sydney since the 70s, which is the envy of the world and also used in almost 200 cities, including Melbourne. Go Aussie Go!
Thanks for your detailed inside knowledge. I was not aware of any assistance given to buses by SCATS, but rarely ride them so maybe did not notice.
It sounds like you are no longer working in that field as changes have occurred gradually since the George St lines opened.
But first, a bit of my background. From a young age I have always been interested in trams, rode some of Sydney’s before the last line closed in 1961, have visited Melbourne regularly since 1965 and was a tram driver there 1988-1994. Also I used to travel much of the world with tramways being the main focal point. From these trips I became aware that particularly in Germany and Switzerland, cars are considered the enemy of cities so public transport had minimal delays at traffic lights.
This attitude was followed with the opening of the Gold Coast line (I am riding tram 16 right now) and Canberra where trams get the priority in normal circumstances.
With the opening of George St, it appears to me that the SCATS operators have been dragged kicking and screaming into gradually giving trams priority at more and more locations on these 2 lines, and annual visits prove this. So the run you have just watched was little related to luck, although the assertive and fast driver helped as well. If you have contact with any former colleagues still on the job, they may be able to give extra details. I did the outbound journey preceding this, and the run was even faster.
By the way, Melbourne has absolutely no locations where the arrival of a tram will initiate a change in a traffic light phase. The best they will do is insert a T light or Right Turn Green arrow to clear cars off the tram line, but only when a phase routinely was going to end anyway.
And I am aware that SCATS has been marketed successfully overseas, the limiting factor being the intelligence of their local programmers.
Here is the link to the fast outbound ride:
L2 to Randwick Under 30 minutes
ruclips.net/video/LUHeGcmRiEc/видео.html
I’ve always been fascinated with SCATS, I even got to see some of the back end when I was contracting to TPG who provided telco…… BUT I’ve noticed the A1 Pacific Highway in and out of Sydney seems to flow well, but the A15 in and out of Newcastle is shockingly bad, you seem to get every single traffic light if you at the lead of the pack and cars keep piling up behind you… there appears to a lot more effort put into traffic flows into Sydney vs Newcastle. It’s a shocker
@Tmm42s I used the Pacific north and south from St Leonard’s a few times recently and it had patches of OK running. Obviously a good or bad result is the competence of the computer programmers. At least bit by bit the Sydney trams have been given light priority although at times it seems sluggish. Look for my next video on Friday. It is an interesting comparison between a Sydney and a Melbourne tram ride.
This was prepared and sent from Gold Coast tram 16.
@@Tmm42s SCATS is often a victim of its own sucess. The more efficient you make a junction, then the more people will want to use that junction. SCATS needs voting to be set up correctly so that progressions operate in the right direction, usually AM, or PM, depending on volumes. It's all about capacity, maintenance, and operators who know how to tweek the system and set up the basic parameters.
Amazing video as always, only a little bit into it and loving it!
Keep up the good work ;)
😊👍
Another great video mate, just imagine how much more efficient it would be without most of those ridiculous speed limits and better priority signalling, then again the road users would be up in arms at being held up that extra 5 seconds...
You are probably right about all of that. However when the Gold Coast trams were introduced, this being a city that never had trams before, there was no complaint from the motorists about the trams getting absolute priority. However usually when that happens, at least one road phase is running at the same time.
Fascinating for my first sight of the Sydney lr. I had no idea they had dual power sources
Yes I said to another comment person, Sydney’s Lord Mayor Clover Moore apparently said something like “no wires or no trams”.
Sydney has a lot of money that must be spended😉😂
The NSW government sold off state assets to built things like this, paid too much money often. All that money must be gone by now. Big debt coming.
Are new tram lines planed for Sydney? I read in Wikipedia that Sydney had until 1960 a big tram network that was about so large as in Melbourne at is best times
Sydney at its peak was considerably bigger than Melbourne, even at today’s size. At present they are converting the former Carlingford rail line to light rail. At the city end, it will head off to Westmead via Parramatta, but it will meander around a bit. Opening due sometime 2023. Carlingford line passengers have lost their direct trip to the city, not good.
Fascinating!! I assume that ground level power in the central business district was preferred instead of overhead wires.
Thank you for sharing! 👍👍😄😄
I think it was the lord mayor who insisted upon this.
@@tressteleg1 thank you. I believe the French have used an in-ground third rail system in several cities. A few USA cities use electricity from batteries or diesel6 power.
Yes. The APS system was developed for use in Bordeaux in France 20 years ago. The Sydney system has some modifications developed since then. A few other cities have adopted the system for at least part or some of their lines. Provided it is reliable, and on my visits it seemed fine, it is the dearest but also the most viable wireless system as it is not affected by batteries running flat on trams which may have been delayed. Capacitors is the most stupid method as it takes much too long to charge them at every stop.
@@tressteleg1 Thank you.
😊👍
Thanks . Fascinating .
👍😊
I agree that there is less visual impact when the support poles are at the sides of the street rather than the center. I still question the need for the expense and complexity of ground-level power in the city center.
I’m fairly certain that it was Sydneys long time Lord Mayor, Ms Clover Moore who more or less stated that it was either no wires or no trams. Of the 3 different wireless methods, this APS is probably the best although it is almost certainly the dearest, especially with maintenance.
Great to see the trams have taken over George St!
😊👍
I'll be looking forward to the Parramatta LR cab views when it opens :)
Well let’s hope it opens on time and not years late as happened with the George Street lines.
@@tressteleg1 it is now speculated that the opening has been delayed from early 2023 to late 2023 due to the rising costs of the remediation works at the depot i think.
Why am I not surprised? 😒
@@tressteleg1 but the delay is not as bad like it was with the CBD and south east LR
@@tressteleg1 the site for the depot probably has quite a few contaminants from when the site used to be an industrial area or something that need cleaning up with care
The trams in Melbourne are still sexier than the ones here in Sydney.
😊👍. I think the Melbourne E class look better for a start.
@@tressteleg1 Amen
Great video as usual. Thank you. The tram motors do seem to be a bit noisier than on prior videos of this equipment. Are they needing maintenance or just something I did not notice in the past?
Might just be the gears wearing down a bit, which is normal.
This video was recorded with my better camera and so its microphones are probably more sensitive than on the tiny little camera.
Sensational!
😊👍. Wait till you see a couple of Twilight views which I will post in due course! 😊
Great video as usual Richard. I would find the travel speed far to slow for an inner city mass transit operation. The speeds should be comparable to the normal street speed. ( Long live Melbourne Trams. )
Melbourne is great, eh? In 33 minutes, the trip time of the Randwick L2, Melbourne‘s showpiece route 96 from East Brunswick towards Saint Kilda covers one less kilometre. Admittedly the line has more stops, but with a total lack of traffic light priority anywhere on the system, the delays at traffic lights are frustratingly tedious. I drove the 96 1988 to 1994, and since then, the journey has got slower and slower with next to nothing being done to assist trams through traffic lights. The normal tram speed in the streets of Melbourne seems to often be a relaxed 40 km/h or so, in some places mandated by speed limit signs, and sometimes because the driver knows that going any faster will make him early which will annoy his employer.
how do you get cabview?
also... will you do any sydney metro videos?
The driver uses his camera - I am never in the cab. I have done the metro in both directions. Here is the run to Tallawong:
Front Window View North West Metro Chatswood to Tallawong Sydney
ruclips.net/video/VF2Yz6vMZGk/видео.html
What is meant by “priority” and “priority failure” as used in the tram context? How exactly does that affect things, please?
At some intersections on this line, an approaching tram causes the traffic lights to change in its favour. This is good public transport practice. However at some intersections tram priority has not been installed and I see that as a failure.
Question: Do you like Sydney light rail or G Link better?
Sydney has interesting technology with coupled sets, APS and a few other things but my nearby GC tram covers 20km in 45 minutes compared with 8km in 30+ minutes. So you can guess from that 😊
@@tressteleg1 I like the Sydney trams better because the G link repeats announcements to much!
I fully agree about that matter. I have been fighting the company for some time now, see video below. Yesterday I replied to an earlier email on the matter and told them they are an arrogant French company which DOES NOT think like a passenger. They won’t care.
The Yap Yap Blah Blah Earbashing Gold Coast Tram with Comparisons
ruclips.net/video/2yHvHle2YjM/видео.html
The speed limits are ridiculously low in some sections, i would find it very frustrating, having said that, Is there something I'm missing, why do they need to go so slow over points and will it really tip over if it goes around a corner at more than 30 k's, trams in amsterdam seem to be much quicker and they have bike riders all over the shop.
Blame the bureaucrats for the low speed limits, and in fact the need to install any limits at all. I did not think that these trams were particularly slow going over points, perhaps apart from the scissors crossover at Circular Quay. Trams would not tip over at speed, but with the long overhang beyond the wheel assemblies, and the fact that they do not have rotating bogies, besides tossing the driver around and probably some passages as well, hitting a curve too hard could possibly cause the front wheels to come off the tracks.
@@tressteleg1 I did not realise they didn't have rotating bogies, that explains alot, thanks for the explanation.
Unfortunately most low floor trams are cheap and nasty and do not have rotating bogies. I think Amsterdam has Siemens Combinos and they are the same. A big determining factor is the amount of overhang between the front pair of wheels and the front of the tram. The longer it is, the more easily it comes off the tracks and certainly a bump with a road vehicle is much more likely to derail one of these trams then any with rotating bogies. Melbourne E class do have rotating bogies.
@@tressteleg1 i like watching Stuttgart trams, they seem to have a comprehensive network and I like the yellow livery.
I think some of the newer ones pivot just a little bit just to smooth it out but yes they don't rotate otherwise.
Has anybody else noticed the “old tram” silhouette on the blue tramway speed limit signs? That outline does seem a perverse choice!
It is the Australian standard warning sign for a tram www.globalspill.com.au/product/tram-lane-sign/
And trains, possibly universal. www.globalspill.com.au/product/passive-control-railway-crossing-sign/
Tram speed and road speed should be 60km on the whole of Anzac Parade. SCATS needs to be reprogrammed or something new traffic priority system needs to be implemented.
Yes Sydney has a bad habit of having stupidly low speed limits on quite important roads like Anzac Parade. And it seems to be policy everywhere that trams running in the street or next to it will have a speed limit no faster, the excuse being that if the trams go faster, motorist will be tempted to speed to keep up with them.
Agreed that the speed limits are pretty dumb. The 25km/h limit approaching stops doesn't make much sense. I guess it is a level crossing but it's protected by traffic lights so less dangerous.
With SCATS, it still works. The system can actually detect trams approaching as shown by the white triangle lighting up. It's just not programmed to insert an additional cycle or anything. RTA (later RMS and now TfNSW) disabled public transport priority after the North West Tway opened and has never put it back.
I believe that neither the Transport Department nor the traffic authority really want trams on the streets of Sydney, and are not interested in helping public transport at all. So it is amazing that the line has as much priority as it has. All the Light Rail systems in Australia are micromanaged to a ridiculous degree, living under the delusion that they are trains and speeds must be determined for them in minute detail. Such speed limits are now popping up in places here and there in Melbourne, but whether their drivers will take any notice of them is another matter.
Great video though I’m not sure why you’re unhappy with lights prioritising pedestrians over a tram. The hierarchy goes pedestrians > cyclists > public transports > other motor vehicles
Up to a point, I agree with you. However if you are referring to the situation shortly after leaving Kingsford, by delaying the pedestrian crossing by about 10 seconds, the second tram could have got through and as it may well have been carrying a lot more than the handful of people crossing the road, in that case the tram should have priority. As it was, total delay to the tram was getting towards a minute and the slower that trams are, the less chance there is of winning people out of their cars into public transport.
Looks painfully slow. Long dwell times at stops also. With plenty of doors it should be much quicker than that.
25 or so seconds these days seems to be fairly common. At some locations, traffic lights extended the dwell times. However on some videos I have processed, Melbourne Z and B class dwells have been as low as 7 seconds. But they’re not hindered by the need for beeping or door close announcements.
5:00 "Kensington" vs "Kingsford" 😊
haha
Maybe he didn’t see the mistake
👍👏👏👏😊 Brasil
Probably Moscow Trams 1992 next week 😊
So pokey. Walking would be faster in the downtown section.
You can’t go too much faster if pedestrians are allowed to straggle all over the place, but it should be up to the drivers to determine the speed according to the number of people around at the time. But today’s bureaucrats won’t allow that.
I dont mind calling trams lightrail its just a gimmick what is oppisite to trains as heavy rail
Light Rail is a sales pitch so that people don’t think they’re getting back the antiquated trams which left our streets decades ago.
@@tressteleg1 exactly thats what it is
@@top40researcher31 😊👍
I think because they call it light rail because if they call it tram it would have T and T is already trains
Amezing tramride but terrible and sooo slowwwwww
It is still faster than Melbourne’s ’Showpiece’ Rt. 96 East Brunswick towards St Kilda. No tram priority there!
Too few stops for a true tram line. It’s built like a railway. Massive over engineering. Thousands of tonnes of concrete. Ridiculously slow. And too many announcements by that awful Karen voice.
Massive over engineering was the result of a government that did not know what it was doing giving the tick of approval to contractors who knew how to charge.