Pacing Perceptions in Fantasy, Ft. Allen, Merphy, & Jimmy!
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- Опубликовано: 27 июн 2023
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Thank you for having me on for this chat! I had so much fun!
Always a pleasure to have you! Thank you so much for joining! ❤️
I'm thoroughly enjoying this discussion with four lovely people! Just making an early comment to say I'm glad Allen's mother is okay. Also, the pacing of the discussion is quite good so far!
Thank you so much, Philip! So glad Allen's mother is okay. I'm happy you're enjoying the discussion so far!
This discussion made me love Allen even more. "Give me a lobotomy"
Hahahaha!!
This was wild and so fun hahaha lovely thumbnail Johanna!
Thank you, my friend! Loved everyone's thoughts on this topic! ❤️
Allan, Merphy and Jimmy in the same video is pure chaos!!
😂 loved!
Glad you loved it!
I'm nearly finished with the video now (I had to watch in several sittings), so I want to thank the four of you for such an enjoyable discussion! Much of the time while you were chatting, I was thinking about the pacing of my own writing and the things I do to increase or decrease the pace according to what I think will work best for the story. I have come to the conclusion that, as with everything else about books, people come in a wide variety of tastes when it comes to pacing, and people also seem to change over time or even from day to day when it comes to their preferences. All the best!
Thank you so much, Philip! There is a range of reader pacing preferences and exceptions to those preferences. I hope this discussion encourages you and other authors to trust yourself in letting the story unfold in a way that feels right to you. That would be my greatest hope!
So, you didn't watch this apace?
@@Paul_van_Doleweerd No, I had to watch it apiece.
"We've digressed a little bit"
Perfect
🤣🤣🤣
Hahahaha! Truth!
I know this video is 10 months old but I wanted to say I thoroughly enjoyed listening to this discussion!! I love dissecting WHY I feel a certain way about a book and you guys are a delight.
(Allen’s Downton Abbey impersonations had me laughing out loud - I too am enthralled by the teacups)
Hahaha! I haven't even watched Downton Abbey, and I love Allen's impressions. Thank you so much!
This is just people talking for over an hour but it flew by for me this morning! This is something I’ve been thinking a lot about since starting a channel, and I was just so interested in everyone’s takes!
If a book has sunk its fangs into you, the objective pacing based on plot movement, chapter length, and whatnot probably matters little for one’s subjective experience of pacing. And then like was discussed, I agree with how so much of it is personal and based on personal preferences about what someone wants out of a book or genre at a particular moment in their life. If I ever mention pacing in a review I’ll try to unpack what it meant for me since just saying fast or slow or good/bad pacing is too vague to mean much without some explanation!
That's awesome, Ben! As a potential reader, I appreciate it when reviewers explain what they mean by pacing. I also think explaining pacing as reviewers help us understand our own experiences and preferences. As you said, personal preference will always be a key player in how we experience pacing, and that's subject to change.
A slow paced book with good characters and good dialogue or humour keeps me reading
Same here! :)
I love discussions like this, because I watch some of my favourite book tubers, and then discover new ones (to me). Thanks for this!
Thank you so much for watching! I'm glad you enjoyed it!
I find that a lot of the time, if I don't like the pacing, it's not because it's inherently bad, but rather because I expected something else. Great discussion, thank you!
That's such a great point! That has definitely happened to me. Thank you!
Allen saying "Quivering Member" was amazing 🤣😂
🤣🤣🤣
There were so many points during this fun talk where I was literally talking back to the screen in response. I quickly forgot what I would have said at certain points because of the fast pace of the discussion, ha. I know Allen said he doesn't want a dissertation but this kind of topic sort of invites one, don't you think? No worries, I won't be giving one. I just sat back and enjoyed the ride 😀
Hahaha! I would've loved to hear all your responses! I appreciate that you think this topic deserves attention, and that's the reason for this discussion. Thank you, Jarrod!
It's so intriguing to hear the varying views on pacing, which sends the author/writer part of my mind spinning. :)
I bet! Hahaha! I really think the topic deserves more attention. Thanks for watching!
Many good points in this video. The parroting issue has definitely become a problem. I never heard "slice of life" until half a year ago or so, now every book is a slice of life book. Jimmy's friend with WoT is a great example, he didnt have any influences on him making him predisposed to thinking there was a slog, and therefore wasnt expecting one to materialize.
Also agree that if someone has a lot more time to read or reads faster, books don't tend to feel as slow, where as if someone reads Shogun over 2 months, the slower parts are going to be exacerbated if its already taking then 2 months to get through a story
I heard "slice of life" for the first time when I read "The Great Alone" by Kristen Hannah in 2019, and that description added clarification on what type of book I was reading. I like that it's a more neutral description than "slog." Jimmy's friend's WoT experience was an incredible example of not being predisposed!
In a very good book, there is no distinction between plot and character. The plot is the result of the characters taking the actions that they do in order to get what they want. Thus the plot gets formed by how the characters go about trying to achieve their goals, and the characters themselves are revealed by what they do - the plot.
Liked the discussion, but I have to say that Allen’s opinion of Ulysses is exactly the opinion that has been formed by groupthink. He objects to that in Malazan, but apparently goes all in on the same for Ulysses.
I love what you shared here about plot and character motivation! I’ve been watching some writing videos lately, and one person stressed the importance of creating a character’s beliefs and misbeliefs first to craft the plot. I don’t know that every writer needs to follow that advice, but it makes me curious about how an author’s starting point affects narrative focus.
Audience responses to Ulysses seem so divisive that I don’t know what the groupthink perception is. All I know is that it’s apparently very difficult to read but worth it for those who endure. 🤷🏻♀️
Conversations like this make me so happy. Great discussion and excellent panel.
Thank you! I'm so glad you enjoyed it!
This was so much fun! The sheer chaos... Pacing is one of the great mysteries for me, because readers can never agree whether or not something is paced well/fast/slow/whatever. It's all subjective, I guess, yet pacing in particular seems like a divisive topic. Personally, I prefer works that take their time to develop the characters, but I go nuts for an explosive ending.
I'm so glad you see the subjective nature and disagreement about that! That's why I wanted to have the discussion. Explosive endings can win me over as well!
I enjoyed this discussion tremendously, great way to spend my morning
Thank you so much! 😊
Both my mother and I read Shogun in no more than two days in a row and loved it. She stayed up all night to finish it, couldn't put it down.
It's funny that Allen doesn't normally read popular books, but Shogun was extremely popular back in the day (when I was a child). 😅😅😅😋
Wow, I could never do that! 🐌 So true about Allen! Both my parents read Shogun in the 70s and still gush about it!
What a great discussion! Very insightful and also super entertaining like always!
Thank you so much! It was a lot of fun!
This was so fun and interesting to watch! What a great group 😄
Thank you so much! 🤍
Such an entertaining crew and fascinating topic ❤
Thank you so much! ❤️
Allen describing Downton Abbey is extremely accurate. At one point my husband walked in and asked why I was so upset and all I could really tell him is that the guy broke the broiler! And... how dare he?! That show does immersion so well that you honestly care about the mundane teacup, and I cannot explain why.
Hahaha! That's amazing! You and Allen are really selling me on watching that someday!
I loved this sooo much! I’ve heard you all talk about Stoner for awhile now so I’m going to give it read! Anxious to hear what Merphy thinks about it.
Thank you! I hope you enjoy Stoner. I'm also anxious to hear Merphy's thoughts on it!
This was really fun, thank you. 🥰 I switch around. Sometimes I'll read a faster paced book, sometimes a slow one. Like you said, it all depends on the level of immersion. But I think I do need some sort of plot in the beginning. Even in a slower paced book. If it's book 7 or 8 in a series and I'm invested, I can certainly overlook lack of plot.
Always good to know our reading preferences! I think there is some psychology to enjoying different pacing in a story or set of books, just like in a music album. 😊
Loved the discussion, and all the digressions 🤣
Hahaha! Thank you so much!
This is thoroughly enjoyable! Great chat.
Thank you so much!
I enjoyed the discussion immensely. My thanks to all four of you!
The last book where I personally loved the pacing was Heliotrope by Palmer Pickering, others might call it slow paced (or slowburn 😉) but to me it never slogged. The pacing made sence within the narrative and it struck a perfect balance between worldbuilding, characters and plot.
What I'm learning about my reading recently is that I value nuance above all and I love it when authors trust their readers to use their brains.
Thank you so much! That sounds like an interesting book, and I love what you wrote about valuing nuance and authors trusting the reader. It takes a courageous author to accept that not all readers will have the patience or desire to understand those nuances.
“I would really rather go take out the trash right now” Jimmy 😂 totally get that feeling
This discussion definitely had a bit of a meandering pacing, but I was totally captivated from start to finish, haha!!
I am definitely one of those readers who can put up with an uneventful/slow plot if the characters are compelling enough. Give me all the introspection and quiet moments!!
Great chat guys, this was pure chaos and it brought me so much joy 🥰
Hahaha! Our pacing was wild! Sounds like we’re on the same page when it comes to pacing in books! Thank you so much for watching! ❤️
Such a great discussion! As an English teacher, this is really helpful to help me think about how to discuss pacing with students! I am relieved that Allen's mother is okay.
I'm glad you liked it! Thanks!
The Truth is one of my favorite Pratchett novels. I might be biased as I work at a newspaper.
Nice! I haven't read it, but I'm glad to hear it's a favorite!
I also read several books at a time but it works for me. I usually have a reading plan for chunker fantasy books
That technique varies for me! Sometimes I can read multiple books at once, and sometimes my brain fights doing that.
Stoner by John Williams on the tbr. Thank you for this awesome discussion. Enjoyed it a lot.
Yay!!! I hope you enjoy it! Thank you!
Rewatching this now having read Stoner, I agree with you and Allen about Stoner.
He wasn't as passive as I was led to believe.
YES! We'll be having a Stoner discussion soon with this group plus Philip, so stay tuned!
"Then he smiled fondly, as if at a memory; it occurred to him that he was nearly sixty years old and that he ought to be beyond the force of such passion, such love. But he was not beyond it, he knew, he would never be. Beneath the numbness, the indifference, the removal, it was there, intense and steady; it had always been there."
This is a great chat Johanna! I find pacing to be inherently subjective, even just based on my own experiences discussing Tad Williams with Jimmy haha. I think Dragonbone Chair is wonderfully paced but find the second one much slower. And many feel the opposite.
I think Broken Empire trilogy are page turners, but I find the character driven narrative utterly fascinating.
Cheers, Carlos
Thank you, Carlos! It is very subjective, and that's when it's good to know what engages you as a reader or what engaged or disengaged the reviewer.
Late to the party but this was such an entertaining chat! The general vibe between all of you is amazing 😂
Thank you, Jolien! ❤️🥰
That's interesting about McCarthy, I didn't know he was perceived as being difficult to read until I heard about Blood Meridian from Mike's book reviews and Slowly Red. When it comes to Grimdark, Red and I tend to align quite a bit so I was cautious lol
I had already read The Road and knew very little about McCarthy or his bibliography as a whole aside from knowing The Road and No Country were generally well received as books and films. When I heard difficult, i thought they meant in terms of content.
Now having read Blood Meridian i see why.
I read The Road very quickly, i randomly picked it up on a whim one night in the summer of 2021 during a particularly bad reading slump and before I finally got some sleep i was 3/4s of the way through. And finished the following day.
No Country took about a week but I still enjoyed it at that pace.
Blood Meridian took weeks and I think I'd benefit more on re-read if that was my sole focus, which it wasn't when i did read it.
Same here! No Country for Old Men was my first McCarthy read, and I didn't have any trouble reading it. Blood Meridian is definitely something different and worthy of rereading. Thanks!
A ton of fun! Hope you all get together again!
I’m sure we will! Thank you so much!
loved tigana, thought it could have been refined greatly at times too however, world was really cool, and that one scene with the mafia bosses i cant ever forget, definitely a pacing quality question after the first third of the book,i believe
Good to know, and I’m glad you still loved it! I own a physical copy and plan to read it someday! I’ll be reading Lions of Al-Rassan and A Song for Arbonne first.
Uhhh... Uhhh, Mr Stoner!!! 🥸
Loved this discussion so much! Really needed a good laugh today. Thank you guys!
Hahahaha! So glad you loved it! 😄
This video was so good ❤
Re pacing - genre conventions matter a lot on speed I think. For me when I say pacing was “bad” - it comes to author control and intent. Romance pacing won’t be the same as thriller and won’t be the same as SFF. Author focus and reader expectations are different.
That's a good point about genres! We talked about that with classics and manga versus fantasy, but there are also so many fantasy sub-genres that can go for different things. Thank you so much! ❤️
30 mins in and can tell already that you got 4 people that like slow paced books and there not a contrary view
False. Greatcoats is one of my favorite series. I tend to prefer faster-paced books in.general but some of my standout favs happen to be slower-paced.
This has got to be one of the best thumbnails I’ve ever seen 👏🏻
Thank you, my friend! I had so much fun making it! 😄
When I really think about it, I'm not sure if I can define what pacing is. There are so many things that affect my perception of pacing. I prefer books that are generally considered slow because I love character explorations. The thing that draws me into the story the most is emotion. I'm not a visual reader, so I read though emotion. I think that is why I love Hobb so much, because she is great at getting me to feel what the characters are feeling
I understand what you mean! There are so many factors that can affect perceptions of pacing, and it's wild when different readers describe different pacing experiences. Hobb is amazing at slow-burn fantasy!
Only halfway, but I love Allen's t-shirt. 🥰🥰🥰
Bookborn gave him that! 😂
I love books that are considered slow by many people. For example Age of Ash by Daniel Abraham, but I was on the edge of my seat the whole time reading it! The word pacing is often intertwined with plot. Imo nothing needs to move forward, but the pacing can be fast nonetheless, for example the inner turmoil of a character.
But I have to say Stone of Farewell really is something, it feels so sloow… K.J. Parkers side tensions are at a breakneck speed in comparison!
I need to read Age of Ash someday! I just finished A Shadow in Summer, and it was my perfect type of reading experience!
Oh man.... now i can't read Stoner for another year because Merphy and the rest of the world will be reading it. 😅😅 Allen has rubbed off on me in many respects and this is one of them (also I've always been one to do things differently than "mainstream"/ how others do it.
And i LOVED this whole conversation. I took you in my car and to the grocery store with me. 😂
Oh no! Hahahaha! Read it now! Quickly! She still has Phantom of the Opera to read first. 😂 Thank you, Penny! ❤️
I can understand the desire for variety, but there's certainly nothing wrong with in medias res. If it was good enough for Homer's Iliad and Odyssey, then it's good enough for me. Seriously though, a lot of great movies have used it throughout film history -- Citizen Kane, Sunset Boulevard, Lawrence of Arabia, the Godfather, Raging Bull, Pulp Fiction, Usual Suspects, Memento, etc. Some stories can only be told by starting in the middle or toward the end and working back.
I agree! I love Gardens of the Moon, which is practically famous for its in medias res, and I think he got that inspiration from Dune, which is another favorite for me. Plus, you mentioned a bunch of awesome films. I think the technique itself is not a problem, but it's how it's used.
I either want a slow paced book with great characters and/or dialogue or a pacing that ebbs and flows. It's hard to take breakneck action without periods of respite.
I feel the same way! Endless action can be exhausting.
Allen, you're right. Of the four of you, Merphy was the first one I saw and subscribed to. You came next. Then Jimmy - because I saw him on your channel! 🤷🏻
Allen always accuses me of patronizing him, when he has a larger, longer-standing channel! Hahaha!
This was a lively discussion about pacing. Pacing is subjective and different for each reader. However, I do believe there is a rhythm to a novel and as a reader I can tell when it’s off for me. Jimmy gave an excellent example with Tigana. Guy Gavriel Kay is one of my favorite writers and that book’s rhythm threw me out of the story when I tried to read it recently. I plan to give it another try in the future. Now that I have a different perspective on it. I know Stoner by John Williams was mentioned quite a bit as a slow paced novel where not a lot of movement happens but there is a lot going on. I would like to recommend Wallace Stegner’s Crossing to Safety in the same vein. It is one of the best novels I have ever read about friendship over a lifetime. Not a lot happens plotwise on the surface. But the connection between the characters is excellent and subtle. Great discussion Johanna and friends!
I get very excited anytime someone recommends me a book based on my love of Stoner! I’ll look up Stegner’s Crossing to Safety. Beautifully said about the rhythm to a story. Thank you so much!
You are welcome, Johanna. I will share with you that Crossing to Safety is a novel I could not have read in my 20’s or even early 30’s. It would have been too slow and boring on the surface to read. But I read it in my late 40’s a couple of years ago and the timing was right because I have gone through some life experiences. I don’t where you are in age but I wanted to throw that caveat in there for my recommendation.
To Allen's point, before I really got back into reading I would insisted that I was a plot reader- this made sense because I liked my Harry Potter and (I thought) mystery/thriller books. When I actually started reading again, and really reading Fantasy- I still go for a wild plot. I mean I devoured Sanderson and his plots are fun, fast, foreshadowed etc. But then things like Liveship Traders or Green Bone become my favorites. I am starting to really enjoy character reading and slower pacing but it would be a lie to not admit to being here for the plot (staying for the characters)
This sounds very similar to my journey! Thanks for sharing!
Great discussion! So much of pace is driven by the audience. Unless you're a well established writer or writing literary fiction you're practically forced to maintain a quick pace because if you don't, readers will give up on your book. The recent proliferation of "try one chapter of 100 books to see which ones are worth continuing" type content is probably making this even worse.
Thank you! That's such a great point about those first-chapter challenges. I made a video about why I avoid DNF-ing books, and one thing I didn't mention is this exact situation. I respect individual DNF policies, but I think the growing movement to DNF as soon as possible (I've seen this encouraged in so many reading advice videos) can put a terrible amount of pressure on authors, especially self-published authors. I believe there are other ways to hook a reader than super high stakes and fast action in the first few pages, but my preferences might be in the minority. 🤷🏻♀️
I want a fast paced plot focused books with fun characters and well crafted descriptions
That's on trend with a lot of modern fantasy right now, I think.
I love Allen being the grumpy old man
He's hilarious!
I can't wait for Jimmy's review of Moby Dick. I also want him to pick up Victor Hugo's Les Mis and see what he thinks. Talk about slowing down to smell the roses... Haha
I need to read those as well. I started Les Mis many years ago, but it wasn't the best choice for me after going through a very extended reading slump. Haha! I'm curious about the abridged versus unabridged version of that one.
@@Johanna_reads I was very confused how there could be abridged versions of Les Mis that were less than half the length of the unabridged book, until I read it. Haha Let's just say, Victor knew a lot about the random history surrounding this story and he REALLY wanted his readers to know that. So personally, if you just want the actual Les Mis story, I suggest going with an abridged version. 😂
@@tgibridays I appreciate hearing that! Thank you!
WoT, the slog is Books 1 - 14 (and I was around when it first published). Defeated twice at book 4. :D
😂😂😂 I have no interest in that series!
Allen, is still hilarious lol. Bless him.
Always!
I must let you guys know that "The Five Warrior Angel" series by Brian Lee Durfee is perfectly Paced. It is a little like Abercrombie, a little like Martin and a little like Esslemont. It does not have the wonderful Dark humor like Erikson but it is Dark.... and Grim... I would almost say it is darker than Abercrombie. It does a great job of creating characters, both bad guys, good guys and grey guys.... Really everyone is grey. One of my favorite series The Witcher, to me had problem with pacing when Ciri was running around with the knight on the lake.
Again, you all should read Brian Lee Durfee "The Five Warrior Angel" series if you like Darker and Grimmer Fantasy.
I own the first book and definitely intend to get to it someday! That description sounds like my kind of fantasy!
@@Johanna_reads It has a good map with it but I had to get my readers out to see the fine print and there is not a pdf on the internet that I could find.
For me wether it’s slow or fast paced it just has to hold my attention and I like exciting things to happen
Absolutely, I think that's true for all of us!
@@Johanna_reads and I’ve found it dosent necessary be action that holds my attention but I still live for really well done character focused action
@@pippaschroeder9660 Yes! I think that's a point I wanted to get across. While high action can be engaging, there are many other ways to hook a reader.
@@Johanna_reads the main thing is internal conflict, or why the plot matters to the characters and their internal journey, which should be in every story. I think it is harder to do well in action and why many action heavier stories feel like action for actions sake or even shallow.
MERPHY!!!
The one and only! Take that, person who stole the Merphy Napier handle!
I needed to hear Allen say that liking plot over characters and liking fast pace over slow pace is stigmatized. I’ve tried for a long time to appreciate characters and themes like other people do but most of the time it feels like I’m faking it. When I think about the book that I adore with all my heart, they are fast paced plot driven books. At the end of the day, I prefer books that make me excited.
Absolutely nothing wrong with that preference! I honestly thought the majority of fantasy readers preferred fast-paced, plot-driven books, so this was news to me!
I didn't learn anything about pacing but had fun watching jaja
Well, it was a good discussion for unlearning, right? Haha!
@@Johanna_reads Absolutely! Do more!
Interesting discussion, I’m not the biggest fan of slow paced things (or oddly paced in the case of Locke Lamora).
Elric or Conan would've been great conversation points in this discussion. From what little Sword and Sorcery I've read, it seems like those authors can capture a lot of tone, theme, characterization, and action within a short page count.
I think I sometimes mix up plot for action within the story. It's more the journey, not the people within or the actions they take.
Thanks for sharing that! Action scenes can certainly be part of a plot, but there might be other critical moments that aren't considered high action.
Theres good slow pacing and bad slow pacing. I agree with Merphy on Liveship Traders- that is huge slow and magnificent.
I really need to read Liveship Traders! I believe I'm destined to love it!
@@Johanna_reads Its just so damn good. It makes you hate some characters as bad a Joffrey. It makes you love some people. It makes you hate some people and then love them. You like characters who are terrible people. I cannot gush enough about it.
I'd like to second (or third) the comment about the relationship between anticipation and 'pacing', it absolutely makes a difference. Me, being even older than Team Tweed™, have experienced this for almost every series I have read, Discworld, WoT, Malazan, etc. Wait a year for a book you really want to read and the author's preferred pacing is out the window.
"older than Team Tweed" 🤣! I know I'm not old enough to earn that title, but I always fear losing the beauty of patience when reading fantasy (which I realize might be an older person thing to say). 😅
@@Johanna_reads To be clear, not TT in totality, older than Dr Fantasy and old enough to be Prof. Fireball's dad. Mostly. 😂. Biologically if not socially. 🤣
Plot driven reader, 100% 🤚🏾
Nice!
I enjoyed the entire book of Stephen King's Fairy Tale. I must be the odd ball.
I would so much rather be the odd ball in the case of Fairy Tale, but you might not be with the majority of readers. I’m speaking from a relatively small sample size, and I’m so glad you enjoyed the whole thing!
Many people I know thought Malice was hard to get into including me…John Gwynne’s writing gives me whiplash with so many characters. I have enjoyed the first two but still have to constantly look up characters… just too many in my opinion.
I've heard similar opinions about that series as well!
Allen is so correct about Red Risong, book is midville
Yeah, I had an okay time reading them but they didn’t leave as deep an impression on me as other readers.
Are these scenes and dialogues moving the plot along?
I guess it depends on the book!
I read alot of samples from Amazon. So, I have read books with great first couple of chapters and then the books fall off. So the samples are great but the books are just ok.
So disappointing when that happens!
I think Allen just needs attention…He just has to be different…it’s who he is.😂 this discussion is great because I do think pacing is hard to describe as it’s so different for everyone
He certainly grabs my attention! I just wish I could figure out how to get him to read The Gentleman Bastards! Haha
@@Johanna_readst’s his loss Johanna ..he just has to be different I think…it’s a psychological thing I’m sure
@@nancyabbott2660 it's 100% psychological. I spent basically 40 years doing all of my hobbies solo and introducing cool books or games to my friends and no one else knowing what the crap I was talking about. There's something mental that won't let me enjoy something if a bunch of people are raving about it.
@@TheLibraryofAllenxandriathat’s really too bad…I myself pay little attention to others opinions and just judge for myself. I’m really not influenced what others think…my taste sometimes agrees with recommendations and sometimes I really disagree. I would never let what others thought keep me from my own judgement.
@@nancyabbott2660 sure, and I understand its irrationality. But I can't help the way my brain processes info from a spectrum perspective and I sadly am too emotional to be able to override my feelings with reason.
I had no idea who Allen was coming into this and he’s now my favorite person. I don’t know what he teachers, or if it’s elementary or college level, but I want to take his class LOL. I just want to sit down and complain about shit with this guy 😂
This makes me so happy! He's one of a kind and the reason I started my channel. I'm so happy you enjoyed him! 😊
@@Johanna_reads I subbed to him 🙌🏼
One day I want to debate Allen about Ulysses and why it's the greatest novel ever written
You would have to get him to read it first, which I doubt will ever happen! Haha!
I find The Wheel of Time first book slow I want to get the Dragonbone chair should I
No harm in trying! I trust I would enjoy the latter more!
Such a great conversation! I am not a big fan of slow burn! Only because you’re putting all your eggs in the “ it will payoff basket” and if it doesn’t! It’s a waste of time! and if it’s a series that makes it even worst! I am not one of those people who will buy the second in a series because people say “ Oh it gets better in the second book! Sorry, I’m OUT!
I can understand the delayed payoff criticism-especially for continuing books in a series. For me, the slow burn isn’t always about building to the big future payoff. Sometimes I’m reading to feel immersed in the settings, atmosphere, character relationships, and small discoveries along the way. I think it can also depend on the quality of writing to enjoy those other elements.
The Thornbirds had probably the most beautiful love/ sex scene I’ve ever read and generally I agree…I prefer fade to black. Most are written today just for sensationalism.
I have, at times, enjoyed not fading to black, but I'm very picky about how that's executed. 😅
I never worry about pacing …I just enjoy the book… I’m so character driven that I love slow books too. I love Hobb for that reason. Also Dickens is my favorite all time author and it’s because of his characters that I love him so much.
Hobb is incredible at writing engaging, slow scenes!
I read Wheel of Time 3 times and loved the whole thing before I found out there was supposedly "a slog." The thing is, now that thee books are all out, there isn't one. I could see how those books would be "a slog" if you read them on release date and had to wait years between books, but now that they're out, they're just slow burn character / politics focused books where not much happens, which people seem to hate for some reason despite loving those elements in other series like A Song of Ice and Fire etc.
Those books STILL have some of the best moments in the series.
Merphy defending Dr. Tenma's ex-fiancee is maybe the worst take I've ever heard.
So wonderful that you got to experience the books with a fresh perspective! It can be a struggle to go into a book after hearing so many describe a "slog" experience. I was arguing the opposite point: I think books would be considered less of a slog if you were experiencing them at the time of release. I'd imagine wanting to savor each page knowing it would be a while until the next installment.
@@Johanna_reads I know you were. In my experience, the opposite is true, that’s why I commented what I did. The people who like those books the lesst tend to be the ones who had to read “not much happens” then wait a few years for more “not much happens”.
@@praetorxyn interesting!
@@Johanna_reads I meant "liked those books the least", not "at release." Not sure how that happened lmao.
Hello there hey there 😊
Hello! 😊
I'll back Jimmy and Allen up. I like Tigana, but it is very weirdly paced. Now, thats not the same as badly paced *cough* Assassin's Quest *cough* lol
👀
I will get to it eventually! I still need to get to Lions!
@@Johanna_readswell, at least you're finally getting to LPQ at least 😂
@@thatsci-firogue It's SO GOOD SO FAR! I'm loving book 1 in LPQ!
@@Johanna_readsYES!!!
Just watching this now and I detest how slow pacing seems to be lined up with lack of plot.
Try explaining in brief all the plot lines in Ship of Magic v the plot of The Final Empire
My experience is the so called slow paced books are often (not always) just written better with way more plot and character jammed into same number of pages.
I think for most of us badly written parts will make themselves known, regardless of that is plot, pacing or characters.
I agree! I think there is a misunderstanding about what plot is. Many times so called "slow paced books" are exploring so many details that can't be reduced to a few main beats of a story.
Not only do I dislike slow paced books, I dislike books with to much description as well. I like to fill in most of it myself. Just give me a few details please.
It’s always helpful to know our own reading taste! What authors write fast-paced, minimal desription well, in your opinion?
In my opinion. Evan Winter. John Gwynn. R.A. Salvatore, Robert Howard. Jim Butcher.
Here are examples of more long winded Authors and slow paced authors I like. Tolkien. Sanderson. Rothfus and I would say Martin, though I would put him in the middle of the two groups as moderate.
@@tenacious2224 Thank you so much for adding your examples! I was thinking of suggesting Robert Howard since I admire how much action and nuance he packs into short stories.
Howard is my favorite author. His ability to capture ambiance, the vibe of Conan is truly great.
I loved this char about pacing. As an aspiring fantasy writer, it was all food for thought. Also I side with Allan on love-making scenes, they add nothing to the story and they're cringe. As far as anime pacing, yes Dragonball suffered from horrendous pacing for the reasons Allan stated, but anime studios have gotten a lot better at adapting shonen anime from manga the last decade. All of the newer shonen anime out right now are much tighter and little to no filler. Also helps that alot of the newer shonen manga are a lot shorter these days.
I’m glad you found this useful! I don’t mind love-making scenes, but I’m super picky about how they’re executed. I imagine it would take authors a lot of courage to write them because they can so easily be cringe!
That’s interesting about the evolution of manga to anime!
@@Johanna_reads Yeah, before it was common practice to just drag the episodes out, but now they're adapting it at a better pace.
When someone says bad pacing it usually means the author is spending a lot of time on something the reader doesn't care about.
And it isnt always about 'nothing isnhappening'. There is a lot of walking and talking in Prince of Nothing but I really don't feel like the pacing was slow.
And I did find it funny your eye rolls were directed at Allen above you.
I totally agree with this! I didn't realize I rolled my eyes! Hahaha!
Does the Expanse count as Daniel Abraham?
Yes, he is a co-author of that series. I've only read Leviathan's Wake and am almost finished with A Shadow in Summer. The two books couldn't be more different from one another, but they show a great range of skills across genres!
@@Johanna_reads Hello Johanna. The pacing of the Expanse is great as far as I have read and there are great characters. I can't wait to get to his other series. I would recommend the TV show as well.
Allen is aggrieved.
Indeed! But he also has a strong sense of fairness and justice in the world at large!
Isn't that my natural state, Mitch?
@@TheLibraryofAllenxandria no one can accuse you of having a gormless and/or feckless disposition
@@mitch8948 🤣🤣🤣
Shit I came here for Bonehunters
😂 That would’ve been fun too!
No Feist for Allen?
I hope he'll answer that!
I've tried twice 20 years ago and haven't since. Pug is a dumb name 😛
#pugforlife
im 22 mins in and thinking poor jummy they keep derailing his every thought when he talks
Oh no! Never my intention, and I'm certain it wasn't anyone else's!
@@Johanna_reads watch the playback of the first 30 mins, every time jimmy talks some one start talking over him making him stop talking or some one makes a silly joke that off topic that derails what he saying and then changes the subject
@@Rishain I appreciate the feedback!
:D
😊
Allen the only Classic I’ve hated so far is Moby Dick! I came from New England where whaling was really huge and still I hated that book.
My mom read it when she was 16 and loved it, but I know you're not alone in hating the book. I'm curious to see what all the whaling is about. 😜
@@Johanna_readsI’ll be interested in what you think… I may try again with the Audio as well
I am subscribed to Allan but not Merphy. I am the one.
🤯 She has two awesome channels! 😄
I guess "I'm that guy" because I dnfed Way of Kings. He did a lot of things I didn't like.
How interesting! I loved The Way of Kings when I read it back in 2020. I'm not sure if I'd feel the same way now.
I know I don't feel the same way now. I don't even think I'm going to read book 5 when it comes out... I'll just watch all the spoiler videos. 😅
Honestly, I'm not sure I'd like it on re-read either.
I blame Hobb and Abercrombie and Martin for spoiling me 😂
if i got nothing else i will read stoner
Yay!!! Mission accomplished!
@@Johanna_reads well done scholar :D take a break you guys nailed it :)