I've seen him looked at positively lots of times. The thing is, when that happens he's usually not being looked at as a typical hero but instead as a normal god damn 14 year old boy with depression and anxiety with ridiculous expectations placed on him. That's why Evangelion is my favorite anime (tied with Madoka Magica), because I can relate really easily to Shinji and to a lesser extent Rei and Asuka because my own experience leaves me extremely sympathetic to theirs. Not that Shinji's perfect, but that's why he's a great character in my eyes.
+ThunderVolt Jack i dont get why no one likes him as a character. its one of the very very few characters in fiction ive been able to wholeheartedly relate to, and one of the most realistically depicted male teenagers in anime. one could argue that this current wave of NGE-fans are mostly female and therefore most new viewers only see him through an outside perspective, but i dont think anyone will deny that NGE is one of the better shows when it comes to letting the viewers inside the characters heads.
I think that's part of it, yeah. There's only so many times that one can see Shinji going through the exact same "I'm gonna do the thing! [Shinji does not do the thing]" before it gets dull. My problem wasn't that Shinji was reluctant at first. But I wanted to see him CHANGE, see him get better, or see him get away from the horrible situation if he realized he couldn't do it. It was FRUSTRATING to see the anime spin its wheels endlessly going through the same song and dance repeatedly.
So, full disclosure, I've never played Journey because I don't have a PS3, but why is it that whenever this game gets mentioned online, there are always a bunch of people shouting about how it's overrated and(and this is the phrase I hear get thrown around a ton when referring to Journey) "Psuedo-intellectual bullshit"? I mean, it seems like an incredible game from gameplay footage I've seen, and now this video even strengthens that opinion, but whenever there's a game that is even moderately artsy, there are always people commenting that "oh, all you people who claim to "get it" are just afraid of sounding dumb and admitting it doesn't make sense to you" and all that shit. It gets on my nerves, why do people do it? It's like they're refusing to accept games as potential for an art form.
The self proclaimed "Hardcore Gamer" crowd thinks the rise of games as a respectable art form will cause their endless stream of gray/brown military shooters to stop. This is the same flawed logic behind the resistance to broadening the gaming audience and the belief that overtly hostile racist and sexist trash talk are just part of the culture. Basically all the stuff this video series tries to actively fight against in the vast majority of their works.
Journey isn't a pseudo-intellectual game because it isn't an intellectual game. You can certainly get intellectual about it, as this video shows, but intellectualism isn't the point of play. Portal, The Stanley Parable and Bioshock are intellectual games because they stimulate thought through gameplay. Journey is about stimulating emotion. It's not about complex puzzles, medial deconstruction or socio-political allegory; it's about showing you feelings you never knew you had- mostly because modern audiences, even, perhaps especially, religious ones, have forgotten what divine awe is.
Phillip Oliver-Holz yeah yeah, you don't have to fucking patronize me, we're all adults here. what I wanted to know was why there is so much particular hate for games like Journey, not a passive-agressive explanation of the nature of free speech on the internet.
Phillip Oliver-Holz And yet over the last few months the actions and motivations of the Gamergate "movement" have backed up every word I wrote. Especially when it comes to their youtube comments and the glut of hate speech that has infested the comments of older Extra Credits videos. Especially the ones titled "Gamer", toxicity, and harassment. Vocalizing opinion is one thing. Angry mobs of bigoted pricks shouting at any and all viewpoints that don't mesh with theirs is a much different animal. One that needs to be put down.
As much as I love Journey, I don't see it following the first two steps of the hero's journey which you guys described. For the first one, you're simply put into this world without any explication given or context (seeing as you come in as a shooting star/spirit). How I interpreted it was that you/your avatar were just born at that moment. Being born, you don't have anything to work with that's "out of the ordinary" because everything is out of the ordinary. Like a newborn baby who's stunned by how everything is so new and grand (this image works better on animals than actual human babies). This is my interpretation because of how simple yet brilliant your avatar's design is. By having such a simple face your character can seem knowledgeable, curious, serious, content, etc. The avatar's emotion (for a majority of the game) is based on the player's immediate feeling towards what's happening in the game. Like when you go exploring, you yourself and your character feels curious towards the world.
I like to think that this is where Journey has fully utilized the ability of video games to immerse a player. Making the player feel like he is living the story. What I'm trying to say is that if you look at it from a different perspective, as in the player's perspective and not the avatar's, Journey does follow the hero's journey. The player, or you, is called out by the initial title screen to go on an exciting adventure. It is you who is leaving his ordinary life and delving into this strange new world. As stated in the video, most players try to explore the desert, or "deny" their destiny, only to be sent back on the trail. It is not the avatar's decision but the player's to refuse the call. This potential is what truly makes video games amazing. The potential of not hearing (playing) another person's story, but living your own story. So, I think that in Journey, the avatar is not following the hero's journey, but you, the player, are following the hero's journey.
Being born is a call to adventure in itself, isn't it? To go from not doing anything to having to get used to this new world? You can't exactly refuse it, the womb won't hold you forever, and you can't crawl back up there.
Anonzs I disagree the avatar experiences a call to adventure as well as the player, it sees something, it wants to go there hence call to adventure. If there's a fps game where all there is is a small white dot in complete blackness then that white dot becomes your call to adventure. The avatar saw the mountain, it wanted to go
Ok, so this show is what made want to play Journey. And the way the show talked about the game in such a great way I had really high expectations. And it blew my freaking mind. Thank you for recommending this game to me, Extra Credits. And if anyone watching this haven't played yed, DO IT. This game is absolutely BEAUTIFUL.
I won't lie. I will never revisit this game because I don't have too. But I loved it. It formed a very lasting impression on me and I loved it. When I noticed that person that showed up was an actual human it was amazing that even though no words were spoken but we understood what to do. I'll always remember the guy that experienced the ending with me. It was just... amazing
Interesting note, the OST for journey, several of the tracks are named for steps IN the heroes journey, the call, threshold, road of trials, temptations, descent (or what EC calls, belly of the beast), atonement, the crossing, and apotheosis.
Zorua Hunter playtest it and see how people respond. if a large percentage has no idea what is going on, make it more overt. Also, if you're following a formula, it's better to not let people know you're doing that. Like they said with 'Journey,' the refusal of the call is perhaps more effective because it's not obvious that's what it is
In addition, creators of creative content will as a rule benefit from trusting their audiences. Otherwise they'll be that guy who says "that was a joke" every time they tell a joke. Some people wont get it, but that's life. Not everyone will catch on to what you did and appreciate it, but someone out there will catch it and enjoy it so much more than they would have if everything had been explained in detail.
It doesn't matter, people will see it. Maybe not all, but some will. And that can be enough to make it worth it. The casual player will enjoy the sights and the sounds and leave it at that. The more interested gamer will grapple onto other players in the game, choosing to put in effort to hang back and play with them. The dedicated gamers will go online, asking about the murals and the many symbols within the game, sitting down and deconstructing the meaning of it. And of course, there are many in between. So at the end of the day, Journey works for everyone.
Reminds me of the inevitable ending of Shadow of the colossus. I tried reaching the girl lying on the altar, desperately mashing the jump-button to fight the wind, until I finaly had to give up in tears. One of the most emotional moments I've experienced in a game so far.
As a writer who's currently planning out a fantasy/sci-fi novel, this was very helpful for me. And I'll definitely bear in mind that a simpler "call to adventure" is better.
Even though Journey is just walking, it delivers an experience which we must interpret on our own to fully understand why were we just walking around and doing nothing but progressing through levels etc... It leaves us something to think about in the end and I can admire games like that.
Motocross Madness 2 had a fun little quirk where once you left the edge of the map it would play the sound of a cannon firing and rocket your bike and rider almost halfway across the map. While it may be in a different tone than Journey, it was pretty neat of them to design something that showed their physics that made the crashes so hilarious, and it gave the player something quirky and fun to actually use the limitations of the map to add to their enjoyment.
I like the picture used for 'removing the sword from the stone', while true, that was the start of Arthur's story, it was the end piece of the Disney version. He had already gone through his hero's story in that movie which started with falling into Merlin's shack.
The "Hero's Journey" as they call it is a lot older than they have attributed it to be. Honestly it dates back to the epics of ancient Greece, the most well known being the Iliad and the the Odyssey
Hey, an Extra Credits with content I'm already educated on! As an editor, Joseph Campbell, Christopher Vogler and Syd Field are all close to my heart, which may be why Journey was such a good game to me. I'd love to see the three-act structure implemented in more games!
I've seen this and the second video, and one thing that gets me is that I've written a book, and after watching these videos I can find an example of nearly every step, in almost the same order, that which my main character goes through. I've never done research into story structure or taken any writing classes, but right now I feel a split sensation of, "Hurray! I've done this story wisely," and, "Someone has deciphered my character's arc without even knowing my story!"
the Dream quest of Unknown Kadath has a great example of call to adventure. Randolph Carter repeatedly dreams of a distant sunset city he can never reach before waking up. How could this translate to a game? A really meta way, would be to have player try to reach the goal, only for the game to crash, or end before you reach it. Then, you reboot it, and it happens again. Finally, the character wakes up in the "real world", and the game begins for real
Sadly I did not, however I did play journey such a long time after this that I forgot almost everything this video specifically said about the game and was still fully enthralled with it maximum potential.
When I said "Nice to see SOMEONE giving Shinji his due." I meant it. There are too many so called "fans" who went into the show with the wrong mindset and expected it to be a wish fulfillment action show with robots when the actual series is more of a character study with the trappings of a giant robot action show. Shinji is not the sort of power fantasy protagonist who can pilot a giant robot without any prior training, he's meant to be more realistic than that. He's an untrained 14-year-old who's been dragooned into piloting a machine that hurts him whenever it takes a hit, he's forced into it by his manipulative and emotionally abusive father who abandoned him at a young age not long after his mother died and he and everyone he works with are pawns in a pair of competing conspiracies to end the world. You might call it being a baby, I call it a reasonable and understandable reaction to all the bullshit forced on him.
Yikes, this was two years old. I completely forgot about this. And while you're right, I think by the time it's obvious that he NEEDS to pilot the robot, he should've at least _tried_ to put his fear aside.
Did you ever actually watch the show? He DOES put his fear aside, he does it in every episode where he fights, starting from the very first episode when Gendo manipulates him into piloting EVA-01 by indirectly threatening to send an injured Rei to her death.
OtakuAudioRedux Well, considering I DID say I haven't in my first comment, it's safe to say that I haven't. Also, why are you suddenly responding after two years of nothing?
(part 2/2). He's ecstatic that he gets to pilot giant robots just like in his imagination and the games he played. He's scared, sure. But the adventure is more tempting than the fear. The second example is the Suzumiya Haruhi series. In the 4th book, Kyon says that he'd never want to return to his normal life because of how fun his life is now. And he always knew that, though he would try not to admit it. I think characters who give in to their love of adventure are more human.
In Campbell's book the refusal of the call isn't a necessary step of the hero's journey. Although he does say that it is very common in real life but only happens sometimes in myth. As EC said, this step is probably used to make the hero relatable to the audience but it is not really needed.
I read that book in school. Had an english teacher who would use MTG cards to tell us things, as well as showing Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter as well. It was very interesting. I think I still have it. :) Good read
Is so magical how you can meet random ppl, and even tho you cant talk or emote other than chirping... still be able to have a moment with them. I remember one of my favorite moments was in that tower thing that fills with water and you gotta jump on the whale things to get to the top... my companion at that time and me just keept jumping and flying around with the whales for like 20 mins for no reason. We weren't in voice chat or anything, so I don't know his or her view, but I was having a lot of fun circling around him/her and they around me and falling into the water and jumping out again. We ended up finding that rare monster at the bottom by accident (at least from my side) cuz we were just flying around and being silly... all of this without the need to use words o.o It was amazing and I will always remember this. No other game has been so memorable to me like this one :D
The second stage is "The Refusel of the Call". There are two major instances in OoT where you can encounter this step. In the begining the Great Deku Tree will ask you if you are ready to fight the evils inside. If you say "No" it will be assumed that you want more time to train, however it could also be seen as refusing the call to adventure. The second time is when Princess Zelda asks for your help. You can refuse her, but then you end up stuck in a never ending loop untill you agree.
Even if you find the gameplay to be boring doesn't mean that it's bad. There are plenty of games that don't have the best mechanics for gameplay but have AMAZING storylines. In The Walking Dead all you really do gameplay wise is just walking around, picking up the occansional item and solving trivial puzzels. But its story was great and held up the entire game.
I was going to get on your case again about disregarding I-III, but then I remembered that Anakin's story is a sort of reverse or subversion of the Hero's Journey to juxtapose Luke's following of it. An interesting thing to explore, but not here or now.
3:51 Another good example from the world of anime is Kaneki Ken (Tokyo Ghoul). I've read the first volume, and while the call to adventure feels a bit accidental and leans toward Deus Ex Machina, the Refusal is written beautifully, because it makes Kaneki feel like a real person, and he reacts in a way the average person would in that situation. My only complaint is that the Refusal can sometimes get in the way of the action, so it's best not to elongate it too much.
You might have misunderstood the refusal of the call. It's not a stage every character does in every version of the hero's journey. It's not a box to be checked. It's an either/or scenario. In myth, the hero can have one of two general reactions to the call to adventure. He can say, 'Yes! Let's embark on this journey as soon as possible,' or he can say, 'That's nice and all, but I have bills to pay.' The refusal of the call to adventure is an actual refusal of the call--not a phase where the character has second thoughts and tries to do something else. According to Campbell, in myths where the hero refuses the call, his life takes a serious turn for the worse as if he was being tormented by the gods. He can then either accept reluctantly (the reluctant hero) or continue to deny his destiny, which may end in his death and evil triumphing. Of course, to truly understand this POSSIBLE stage, I urge you to read the entire book for yourself. It really is an exceptional read, and it can help notice the stages of the hero's journey in our own lives outside games and other media.
Watch part 2 of this video. It says that the Father is not necessarily a father figure but a supremely powerful entity, and that "supernatural aid" could include a lightsaber or a mech. Book definitely acts as a wise man in his earlier scene. Not all adaptations of the Hero's Journey need to be Lord of the Rings or even Star Wars. You could write one using simple everyday events. As the video says, it's not the formula that matters, but the meaning and depth it bestows on your narrative.
Oh, I remember all of that still from Game Design class... Pretty surprising to suddenly find out, how so many games use the exact same core to build their story.
Simo I'm sorry if I prefer games where you do something other than point the analog forward for 3 hours and watch pretty pictures. My standards are a little bit higher than that.
gogerychwyrndrobwll In a roller coaster all you basically do is sit for a few minutes but its still more exciting than just sitting at a kitchen table for a few minutes. Experiences aren't just actions they are everything that is involve with the action. You're making a mistake when you try describe an experience by just boiling it down to bare bone actions. Not your fault though you where just trying to rationalize why you didn't like something.
gogerychwyrndrobwll You are missing my point. When you say Journey is just "pushing the analog button forward for 3 hours" you aren't really describing the whole experience, only the actions involved. When you describe it that way it's the same thing as describing riding roller coaster as just sitting without mentioning everything else that makes up the experience.
Because you enjoy relaxing games without much gameplay in them involved. Just because you didn't find it boring doesn't mean it isn't boring. Hell, some people find staring at a wall while they drool to be a fun activity. All it shows is that you are easily stimulated.
Both a call and a refusal of the call. Attempts to not find out why are snuffed out by the realization that their home is destroyed, and nothing remains but to investigate the cause. Doubly so if everyone the hero knew is dead. In trope terms, this is called "The Call Knows Where You Live".
reluctant, others willing. Some see it as their duty as a human being to save their Universe, others see it as Morally wrong, to sacrifice a whole Universe for the sake of their own, some do it out of fear and others for the people they love and fear of doing it for other people. Then theirs the people who outright refuse to fight...putting this much character and a sense of duty into a group of teenagers. Truly one of the best things to come out of the industry, go check it out.
The call to adventure: an actual call, the frequency that activates River Refusal of the call: Mal initially abandons River and Simon Supernatural aid: River's powers. Also, Book acts as a spiritual guide Crossing the threshold: the massacre at Book's village. The Belly of the whale: Miranda Initiation: I aim to misbehave Road of Trials: The space battle Woman as temptress: Inara. Trap. Atonement with the Father: Mal converts the Operative I'm out of characters, but you get the idea.
Joel from The Last of Us REALLY shows the hero's journey, going from a broken man who has lost everything and just focuses on survival, no matter what horrible things he has to do in order to survive, to protecting Ellie at all costs and finally opening up to care about someone else again. It has the hero's call - the job to bring Ellie to the Fireflies It has the refusal of the call - when they find the Fireflies at the capital are SPOILER.... dead. And he tells Tess that the job is OVER and they should go back, and only doesnt because Tess makes him promise to take Ellie the rest of the way when it's discovered that Tess is going to die herself.
The fact that he gets back into the robot every time is proof that he has accepted the call. His mantra is "I musn't run away". He wrestles with his decision to fight every time he gets in and he always decides to continue fighting. Acceptance of the call. He grows in some ways, but fighting and losing his friends strips away his humanity so net growth is low. However, while he may not "grow" or "better himself" he certainly "developes". It's not a traditional hero's journey, but it is valid.
Speaking of anime, Bokurano is the greatest example of this. Every episode, in essence, is The Hero's Journey, with the exception of Stage 1. Each character has to take turns to pilot a Mecha (incidentally, there's not much 'Mecha-Combat' involved, it's all about character) against another, losing this battle means their Universe (each Mecha comes from a different Universe) is destroyed. There are 12 Battles and each episode explores the characters that are tricked into piloting it. Some are...
I wonder how one gets to be an EC guest artist. I'm gonna keep practising a kind of short-hand art style but once I get good enough I would LOVe to do a (or more) EC episodes. Long-game, but throwing myself out there early. And in most likely the entirely wrong place.
have you even played the game? At the part where you have to climb up the mountain you have to take cover and move as fast and precise as posible to avoid from getting draged back by the wind. If there is another player with you you have to work together and try not to seperate because being together helps you move a little faster. You never had to do something like that before so it IS variety. Variaty doesnt have to be bombastic to be good. Small changes in the mechanics keeps your attention
nah. For some people its a game full of emotion. i cant really describe it. the game truly felt like an incredible and mysterious journey to me. i dont blame you if you cant see it. it needs a lot of childlike wonder to see it.
I am not saying he is not aloud to morn certain things that happen, he just does not move on. Any time he makes any progress, even if nothing major happens, he regresses to the same character from the first episode. 14 or not, there are many other 14 year old anime males who go through a lot worse and end up becoming a better character in the end. Why? Because even through grief, they still grow. Another better example: Ganta from DMWL. He is surrounded by death everyday, yet he grows.
Interesting way of pouring salt into my wound ^^ All that does really sound intriguing and I do hope I will one day be able to play the game. But till then I just hope that all the people who actually matter in this world will recognize this as a great example of video games as an art form.
id say an example of refusal of the heros call would be seeing those FUCKING ANCIENT HAMMERHEAD WARROBOTS in the depths of the ruins. jesus christ i was so scared to enter that room
You know I could see what you were saying with the whole "shingi reluctance" thing, if he didn't do that every episode, but they're also similar in the sense that there was someone else on the journey with him... You know, shingi's right hand
One little correction I have to make to this: The first stage of Hero's Journey is not the Call to Adventure. That's the second stage. The first stage is the Ordinary World, where the world is established a bit, the hero is introduced and we are shown what their ordinary world is like (in the case of Star Wars, it's seeing Luke bored of his life on the moisture farm). But I guess the game Journey doesn't really have that stage, so it would be a bit pointless to include it here.
I never thought of pokemon that way. I always liked having a mute protagonist. It made it feel as if it was yourself in that situation, which is why you name yourself. If you have a protagonist that talks, and they make all the decisions on their own, it feels like you have no control, and are watching a movie, not playing a game. In pokemon, you get to explore and choose what you do and how you do it. I thought it made Red feel like more of a human. That's just my opinion, though.
I think the most famous Call to Adventure now is "You're a wizard, Harry." xD
Hell yeah!
I want to find a CtA where a character says "YOU'RE GOING WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT!"
And the hero's like O_O
Followed closely by "I'm looking for someone to share in an adventure..."
This video has to be the first time I have EVER seen Shinji Ikari referenced in a positive way.
Thank you.
I've seen him looked at positively lots of times. The thing is, when that happens he's usually not being looked at as a typical hero but instead as a normal god damn 14 year old boy with depression and anxiety with ridiculous expectations placed on him. That's why Evangelion is my favorite anime (tied with Madoka Magica), because I can relate really easily to Shinji and to a lesser extent Rei and Asuka because my own experience leaves me extremely sympathetic to theirs. Not that Shinji's perfect, but that's why he's a great character in my eyes.
+ThunderVolt Jack i dont get why no one likes him as a character. its one of the very very few characters in fiction ive been able to wholeheartedly relate to, and one of the most realistically depicted male teenagers in anime. one could argue that this current wave of NGE-fans are mostly female and therefore most new viewers only see him through an outside perspective, but i dont think anyone will deny that NGE is one of the better shows when it comes to letting the viewers inside the characters heads.
wait, people hate shinji? this is news to me. Why do people hate him?
He didn't deserve to be referenced positively. The "refusal of the call" is supposed to be a one-time thing, not once every episode and a half.
I think that's part of it, yeah. There's only so many times that one can see Shinji going through the exact same "I'm gonna do the thing! [Shinji does not do the thing]" before it gets dull. My problem wasn't that Shinji was reluctant at first. But I wanted to see him CHANGE, see him get better, or see him get away from the horrible situation if he realized he couldn't do it.
It was FRUSTRATING to see the anime spin its wheels endlessly going through the same song and dance repeatedly.
this is also very relevant to being a dungeon master in DND
This is relevant to nearly all dramatic and epic storytelling throughout history.
GOD I LOVE THIS SHOW
They give us so many things to explore that we probably wouldn't come across otherwise.
So, full disclosure, I've never played Journey because I don't have a PS3, but why is it that whenever this game gets mentioned online, there are always a bunch of people shouting about how it's overrated and(and this is the phrase I hear get thrown around a ton when referring to Journey) "Psuedo-intellectual bullshit"?
I mean, it seems like an incredible game from gameplay footage I've seen, and now this video even strengthens that opinion, but whenever there's a game that is even moderately artsy, there are always people commenting that "oh, all you people who claim to "get it" are just afraid of sounding dumb and admitting it doesn't make sense to you" and all that shit. It gets on my nerves, why do people do it? It's like they're refusing to accept games as potential for an art form.
The self proclaimed "Hardcore Gamer" crowd thinks the rise of games as a respectable art form will cause their endless stream of gray/brown military shooters to stop. This is the same flawed logic behind the resistance to broadening the gaming audience and the belief that overtly hostile racist and sexist trash talk are just part of the culture.
Basically all the stuff this video series tries to actively fight against in the vast majority of their works.
Journey isn't a pseudo-intellectual game because it isn't an intellectual game. You can certainly get intellectual about it, as this video shows, but intellectualism isn't the point of play. Portal, The Stanley Parable and Bioshock are intellectual games because they stimulate thought through gameplay. Journey is about stimulating emotion. It's not about complex puzzles, medial deconstruction or socio-political allegory; it's about showing you feelings you never knew you had- mostly because modern audiences, even, perhaps especially, religious ones, have forgotten what divine awe is.
Phillip Oliver-Holz I dunno, I'd like to hear a better explanation.
Phillip Oliver-Holz yeah yeah, you don't have to fucking patronize me, we're all adults here. what I wanted to know was why there is so much particular hate for games like Journey, not a passive-agressive explanation of the nature of free speech on the internet.
Phillip Oliver-Holz And yet over the last few months the actions and motivations of the Gamergate "movement" have backed up every word I wrote.
Especially when it comes to their youtube comments and the glut of hate speech that has infested the comments of older Extra Credits videos. Especially the ones titled "Gamer", toxicity, and harassment.
Vocalizing opinion is one thing. Angry mobs of bigoted pricks shouting at any and all viewpoints that don't mesh with theirs is a much different animal. One that needs to be put down.
As much as I love Journey, I don't see it following the first two steps of the hero's journey which you guys described.
For the first one, you're simply put into this world without any explication given or context (seeing as you come in as a shooting star/spirit). How I interpreted it was that you/your avatar were just born at that moment.
Being born, you don't have anything to work with that's "out of the ordinary" because everything is out of the ordinary. Like a newborn baby who's stunned by how everything is so new and grand (this image works better on animals than actual human babies).
This is my interpretation because of how simple yet brilliant your avatar's design is. By having such a simple face your character can seem knowledgeable, curious, serious, content, etc. The avatar's emotion (for a majority of the game) is based on the player's immediate feeling towards what's happening in the game. Like when you go exploring, you yourself and your character feels curious towards the world.
I like to think that this is where Journey has fully utilized the ability of video games to immerse a player. Making the player feel like he is living the story.
What I'm trying to say is that if you look at it from a different perspective, as in the player's perspective and not the avatar's, Journey does follow the hero's journey.
The player, or you, is called out by the initial title screen to go on an exciting adventure. It is you who is leaving his ordinary life and delving into this strange new world.
As stated in the video, most players try to explore the desert, or "deny" their destiny, only to be sent back on the trail. It is not the avatar's decision but the player's to refuse the call.
This potential is what truly makes video games amazing. The potential of not hearing (playing) another person's story, but living your own story.
So, I think that in Journey, the avatar is not following the hero's journey, but you, the player, are following the hero's journey.
Being born is a call to adventure in itself, isn't it? To go from not doing anything to having to get used to this new world? You can't exactly refuse it, the womb won't hold you forever, and you can't crawl back up there.
Anonzs
I disagree the avatar experiences a call to adventure as well as the player, it sees something, it wants to go there hence call to adventure. If there's a fps game where all there is is a small white dot in complete blackness then that white dot becomes your call to adventure. The avatar saw the mountain, it wanted to go
Ok, so this show is what made want to play Journey. And the way the show talked about the game in such a great way I had really high expectations. And it blew my freaking mind. Thank you for recommending this game to me, Extra Credits. And if anyone watching this haven't played yed, DO IT. This game is absolutely BEAUTIFUL.
that shinji reference was awesome,
Lol
I won't lie. I will never revisit this game because I don't have too. But I loved it. It formed a very lasting impression on me and I loved it. When I noticed that person that showed up was an actual human it was amazing that even though no words were spoken but we understood what to do. I'll always remember the guy that experienced the ending with me. It was just... amazing
Wow, loved the refuse of the call part. So so interesting. Loved your videos by the way!!!!!!!
Interesting note, the OST for journey, several of the tracks are named for steps IN the heroes journey, the call, threshold, road of trials, temptations, descent (or what EC calls, belly of the beast), atonement, the crossing, and apotheosis.
But how do you make sure the players realize the intention and appreciate it?
Zorua Hunter you agegate the game?
Age-what?
Zorua Hunter playtest it and see how people respond. if a large percentage has no idea what is going on, make it more overt.
Also, if you're following a formula, it's better to not let people know you're doing that. Like they said with 'Journey,' the refusal of the call is perhaps more effective because it's not obvious that's what it is
In addition, creators of creative content will as a rule benefit from trusting their audiences. Otherwise they'll be that guy who says "that was a joke" every time they tell a joke. Some people wont get it, but that's life. Not everyone will catch on to what you did and appreciate it, but someone out there will catch it and enjoy it so much more than they would have if everything had been explained in detail.
It doesn't matter, people will see it. Maybe not all, but some will. And that can be enough to make it worth it. The casual player will enjoy the sights and the sounds and leave it at that. The more interested gamer will grapple onto other players in the game, choosing to put in effort to hang back and play with them. The dedicated gamers will go online, asking about the murals and the many symbols within the game, sitting down and deconstructing the meaning of it. And of course, there are many in between. So at the end of the day, Journey works for everyone.
Reminds me of the inevitable ending of Shadow of the colossus.
I tried reaching the girl lying on the altar, desperately mashing the jump-button to fight the wind, until I finaly had to give up in tears. One of the most emotional moments I've experienced in a game so far.
As a writer who's currently planning out a fantasy/sci-fi novel, this was very helpful for me. And I'll definitely bear in mind that a simpler "call to adventure" is better.
Even though Journey is just walking, it delivers an experience which we must interpret on our own to fully understand why were we just walking around and doing nothing but progressing through levels etc... It leaves us something to think about in the end and I can admire games like that.
Motocross Madness 2 had a fun little quirk where once you left the edge of the map it would play the sound of a cannon firing and rocket your bike and rider almost halfway across the map. While it may be in a different tone than Journey, it was pretty neat of them to design something that showed their physics that made the crashes so hilarious, and it gave the player something quirky and fun to actually use the limitations of the map to add to their enjoyment.
I like the picture used for 'removing the sword from the stone', while true, that was the start of Arthur's story, it was the end piece of the Disney version. He had already gone through his hero's story in that movie which started with falling into Merlin's shack.
I love the artwork in this episode!
I *LOVE* the works of *Joseph Cambell*
The "Hero's Journey" as they call it is a lot older than they have attributed it to be. Honestly it dates back to the epics of ancient Greece, the most well known being the Iliad and the the Odyssey
+Sammy Rigdon IV Campbell didn't invent the Hero's Journey, he was the first to describe it and put a name on it.
+vaiyt I understand that. It just bothers me that the Greeks were never mentioned in this video.
Sammy Rigdon IV Hero's Journey type stories go as far back as Gilgamesh, so it's not like the Greeks came up with it either.
vaiyt that is true. I'll be honest I completely forgot about Gilgamesh
Sammy Rigdon IV These stories are most probably much older than writing itself.
Hey, an Extra Credits with content I'm already educated on! As an editor, Joseph Campbell, Christopher Vogler and Syd Field are all close to my heart, which may be why Journey was such a good game to me. I'd love to see the three-act structure implemented in more games!
I'm so amazed by this :o This is so interesting and it makes me crave for more of such analytical and educational content!
Journey is a beautiful game
LeeLee. XD That was freaking nickname at Job Corps. For that, much love and I may even read your comic lol. :3
Seeing Shinji, I could not resist...
'GET IN THE F***ING ROBOT SHINJI!
I love the picture at 0:45!
I've seen this and the second video, and one thing that gets me is that I've written a book, and after watching these videos I can find an example of nearly every step, in almost the same order, that which my main character goes through. I've never done research into story structure or taken any writing classes, but right now I feel a split sensation of, "Hurray! I've done this story wisely," and, "Someone has deciphered my character's arc without even knowing my story!"
This video made me play Journey. I owe you guys so much.
Loved the Journey of Dreams song in the background. Nice touch, guys ;)
the Dream quest of Unknown Kadath has a great example of call to adventure. Randolph Carter repeatedly dreams of a distant sunset city he can never reach before waking up. How could this translate to a game? A really meta way, would be to have player try to reach the goal, only for the game to crash, or end before you reach it. Then, you reboot it, and it happens again. Finally, the character wakes up in the "real world", and the game begins for real
Sadly I did not, however I did play journey such a long time after this that I forgot almost everything this video specifically said about the game and was still fully enthralled with it maximum potential.
3:31 props to Leelee. This picture is the cleverest thing in the video.
Nice to see SOMEONE giving Shinji his due.
Lol
However, I still think he's a baby, and I haven't watched the show!
I mean, by the fifth time, wouldn't it be easier to use an Eva?
When I said "Nice to see SOMEONE giving Shinji his due." I meant it. There are too many so called "fans" who went into the show with the wrong mindset and expected it to be a wish fulfillment action show with robots when the actual series is more of a character study with the trappings of a giant robot action show.
Shinji is not the sort of power fantasy protagonist who can pilot a giant robot without any prior training, he's meant to be more realistic than that. He's an untrained 14-year-old who's been dragooned into piloting a machine that hurts him whenever it takes a hit, he's forced into it by his manipulative and emotionally abusive father who abandoned him at a young age not long after his mother died and he and everyone he works with are pawns in a pair of competing conspiracies to end the world.
You might call it being a baby, I call it a reasonable and understandable reaction to all the bullshit forced on him.
Yikes, this was two years old. I completely forgot about this.
And while you're right, I think by the time it's obvious that he NEEDS to pilot the robot, he should've at least _tried_ to put his fear aside.
Did you ever actually watch the show? He DOES put his fear aside, he does it in every episode where he fights, starting from the very first episode when Gendo manipulates him into piloting EVA-01 by indirectly threatening to send an injured Rei to her death.
OtakuAudioRedux
Well, considering I DID say I haven't in my first comment, it's safe to say that I haven't.
Also, why are you suddenly responding after two years of nothing?
I miss Leelee good to see her first episode again
Yay for the Nights music at the end!
(part 2/2).
He's ecstatic that he gets to pilot giant robots just like in his imagination and the games he played. He's scared, sure. But the adventure is more tempting than the fear. The second example is the Suzumiya Haruhi series. In the 4th book, Kyon says that he'd never want to return to his normal life because of how fun his life is now. And he always knew that, though he would try not to admit it. I think characters who give in to their love of adventure are more human.
Journey is an incredible band.
Journey is for sure one of my top 5 games. Shit, it's too amazing to even express.
In Campbell's book the refusal of the call isn't a necessary step of the hero's journey. Although he does say that it is very common in real life but only happens sometimes in myth. As EC said, this step is probably used to make the hero relatable to the audience but it is not really needed.
The last part about Journey blew my mind!
Incredible analogy, sir.
I love that book by the by.
I read that book in school. Had an english teacher who would use MTG cards to tell us things, as well as showing Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter as well. It was very interesting. I think I still have it. :) Good read
Journey is my favourite game, it's so amazing and fun! I love boosting and meeting new people! :)
Is so magical how you can meet random ppl, and even tho you cant talk or emote other than chirping... still be able to have a moment with them.
I remember one of my favorite moments was in that tower thing that fills with water and you gotta jump on the whale things to get to the top... my companion at that time and me just keept jumping and flying around with the whales for like 20 mins for no reason. We weren't in voice chat or anything, so I don't know his or her view, but I was having a lot of fun circling around him/her and they around me and falling into the water and jumping out again.
We ended up finding that rare monster at the bottom by accident (at least from my side) cuz we were just flying around and being silly... all of this without the need to use words o.o
It was amazing and I will always remember this. No other game has been so memorable to me like this one :D
I thought this was going to be an episode on Simutronic's Heros Journey and its 20 year developement cycle. Either way, I like it.
dunno why this stuck out the most for me, but kudos for the "remove this cup" reference.
The second stage is "The Refusel of the Call". There are two major instances in OoT where you can encounter this step. In the begining the Great Deku Tree will ask you if you are ready to fight the evils inside. If you say "No" it will be assumed that you want more time to train, however it could also be seen as refusing the call to adventure. The second time is when Princess Zelda asks for your help. You can refuse her, but then you end up stuck in a never ending loop untill you agree.
Even if you find the gameplay to be boring doesn't mean that it's bad. There are plenty of games that don't have the best mechanics for gameplay but have AMAZING storylines. In The Walking Dead all you really do gameplay wise is just walking around, picking up the occansional item and solving trivial puzzels. But its story was great and held up the entire game.
I was going to get on your case again about disregarding I-III, but then I remembered that Anakin's story is a sort of reverse or subversion of the Hero's Journey to juxtapose Luke's following of it. An interesting thing to explore, but not here or now.
Link and Sara when you run out of the forrest 2nd step right there such a sad moment
3:51
Another good example from the world of anime is Kaneki Ken (Tokyo Ghoul). I've read the first volume, and while the call to adventure feels a bit accidental and leans toward Deus Ex Machina, the Refusal is written beautifully, because it makes Kaneki feel like a real person, and he reacts in a way the average person would in that situation. My only complaint is that the Refusal can sometimes get in the way of the action, so it's best not to elongate it too much.
As he said in the video, the call to adventure doesn't have to be complicated. Even if it is a bit forced that's fine.
I totaly wanna be a game developer after watching 20 of these videos
Glaceons Iceblast So...how did it go? I mean, it's been 7 months.
Marko Stamenkovic he works at Naughty Dog now
You might have misunderstood the refusal of the call. It's not a stage every character does in every version of the hero's journey. It's not a box to be checked. It's an either/or scenario.
In myth, the hero can have one of two general reactions to the call to adventure. He can say, 'Yes! Let's embark on this journey as soon as possible,' or he can say, 'That's nice and all, but I have bills to pay.' The refusal of the call to adventure is an actual refusal of the call--not a phase where the character has second thoughts and tries to do something else.
According to Campbell, in myths where the hero refuses the call, his life takes a serious turn for the worse as if he was being tormented by the gods. He can then either accept reluctantly (the reluctant hero) or continue to deny his destiny, which may end in his death and evil triumphing.
Of course, to truly understand this POSSIBLE stage, I urge you to read the entire book for yourself. It really is an exceptional read, and it can help notice the stages of the hero's journey in our own lives outside games and other media.
loved the shinji ikari examples.
Holy shit O.o I had no idea Journey did this so well!
It is, and it's soundtrack was nominated for a Grammy.
Watch part 2 of this video. It says that the Father is not necessarily a father figure but a supremely powerful entity, and that "supernatural aid" could include a lightsaber or a mech. Book definitely acts as a wise man in his earlier scene. Not all adaptations of the Hero's Journey need to be Lord of the Rings or even Star Wars. You could write one using simple everyday events. As the video says, it's not the formula that matters, but the meaning and depth it bestows on your narrative.
Oh, I remember all of that still from Game Design class...
Pretty surprising to suddenly find out, how so many games use the exact same core to build their story.
Well, seems like I should have played the game before watching this.^^'
1:52 just love the "yes"
Man, I really wish Journey wasn't inexplicably a PS3 exclusive. >
It's actually a shit game, so don't worry much there.
Simo I'm sorry if I prefer games where you do something other than point the analog forward for 3 hours and watch pretty pictures. My standards are a little bit higher than that.
gogerychwyrndrobwll In a roller coaster all you basically do is sit for a few minutes but its still more exciting than just sitting at a kitchen table for a few minutes. Experiences aren't just actions they are everything that is involve with the action. You're making a mistake when you try describe an experience by just boiling it down to bare bone actions. Not your fault though you where just trying to rationalize why you didn't like something.
Murderous Johnny In a roller coaster you have an entire range of sensory experiences. I really don't think it's comparable.
gogerychwyrndrobwll
You are missing my point. When you say Journey is just "pushing the analog button forward for 3 hours" you aren't really describing the whole experience, only the actions involved. When you describe it that way it's the same thing as describing riding roller coaster as just sitting without mentioning everything else that makes up the experience.
Take a look at the Legend of Spyro trilogy…. HERO’S JURNY
Mind Blown on the idea of refusal
That sentence contains so much wisdom. You should become an old, wise, hermit.
This was actually really helpful to me.
Because you enjoy relaxing games without much gameplay in them involved. Just because you didn't find it boring doesn't mean it isn't boring. Hell, some people find staring at a wall while they drool to be a fun activity. All it shows is that you are easily stimulated.
Both a call and a refusal of the call. Attempts to not find out why are snuffed out by the realization that their home is destroyed, and nothing remains but to investigate the cause. Doubly so if everyone the hero knew is dead. In trope terms, this is called "The Call Knows Where You Live".
reluctant, others willing. Some see it as their duty as a human being to save their Universe, others see it as Morally wrong, to sacrifice a whole Universe for the sake of their own, some do it out of fear and others for the people they love and fear of doing it for other people. Then theirs the people who outright refuse to fight...putting this much character and a sense of duty into a group of teenagers. Truly one of the best things to come out of the industry, go check it out.
The call to adventure: an actual call, the frequency that activates River
Refusal of the call: Mal initially abandons River and Simon
Supernatural aid: River's powers. Also, Book acts as a spiritual guide
Crossing the threshold: the massacre at Book's village.
The Belly of the whale: Miranda
Initiation: I aim to misbehave
Road of Trials: The space battle
Woman as temptress: Inara. Trap.
Atonement with the Father: Mal converts the Operative
I'm out of characters, but you get the idea.
Ah...Journey. Such a great little game.
I'm doing a research paper on this!
Joel from The Last of Us REALLY shows the hero's journey, going from a broken man who has lost everything and just focuses on survival, no matter what horrible things he has to do in order to survive, to protecting Ellie at all costs and finally opening up to care about someone else again.
It has the hero's call - the job to bring Ellie to the Fireflies
It has the refusal of the call - when they find the Fireflies at the capital are SPOILER....
dead. And he tells Tess that the job is OVER and they should go back, and only doesnt because Tess makes him promise to take Ellie the rest of the way when it's discovered that Tess is going to die herself.
The fact that he gets back into the robot every time is proof that he has accepted the call. His mantra is "I musn't run away". He wrestles with his decision to fight every time he gets in and he always decides to continue fighting. Acceptance of the call. He grows in some ways, but fighting and losing his friends strips away his humanity so net growth is low. However, while he may not "grow" or "better himself" he certainly "developes".
It's not a traditional hero's journey, but it is valid.
Speaking of anime, Bokurano is the greatest example of this. Every episode, in essence, is The Hero's Journey, with the exception of Stage 1. Each character has to take turns to pilot a Mecha (incidentally, there's not much 'Mecha-Combat' involved, it's all about character) against another, losing this battle means their Universe (each Mecha comes from a different Universe) is destroyed. There are 12 Battles and each episode explores the characters that are tricked into piloting it. Some are...
Walk, observe, learn, much more.
You're missing out on a ton of narrative by confining the experience purely to what you do. The above video is proof of that.
Journey is an incredible game
I wonder how one gets to be an EC guest artist. I'm gonna keep practising a kind of short-hand art style but once I get good enough I would LOVe to do a (or more) EC episodes.
Long-game, but throwing myself out there early.
And in most likely the entirely wrong place.
have you even played the game? At the part where you have to climb up the mountain you have to take cover and move as fast and precise as posible to avoid from getting draged back by the wind. If there is another player with you you have to work together and try not to seperate because being together helps you move a little faster. You never had to do something like that before so it IS variety. Variaty doesnt have to be bombastic to be good. Small changes in the mechanics keeps your attention
That's a good plan. They get in to some spoilers in the later parts.
i really like this art style :)
literally bought journey the instant I finished this episode.
Awesomeness just like always.
amazing, really well put haha
some people just don't get it, they just need a score popping up every 10 seconds to feel rewarded or something.
I really REALLY want a PC port for Journey!!
Did the part about being blown back being used as a mechanic to show denial of destiny blow anyone else's mind as well?
nah. For some people its a game full of emotion. i cant really describe it. the game truly felt like an incredible and mysterious journey to me. i dont blame you if you cant see it. it needs a lot of childlike wonder to see it.
Thats because missionary requires emotion to be enjoyed. Just like Journey. :D If you are not passionate, you cant FULLY enjoy either.
Undying praise
I am not saying he is not aloud to morn certain things that happen, he just does not move on. Any time he makes any progress, even if nothing major happens, he regresses to the same character from the first episode. 14 or not, there are many other 14 year old anime males who go through a lot worse and end up becoming a better character in the end. Why? Because even through grief, they still grow.
Another better example: Ganta from DMWL. He is surrounded by death everyday, yet he grows.
Mindblown
Interesting way of pouring salt into my wound ^^
All that does really sound intriguing and I do hope I will one day be able to play the game. But till then I just hope that all the people who actually matter in this world will recognize this as a great example of video games as an art form.
3:43 Extra Credits was once a mighty fine show. Then the calamity struck.
id say an example of refusal of the heros call would be seeing those FUCKING ANCIENT HAMMERHEAD WARROBOTS in the depths of the ruins. jesus christ i was so scared to enter that room
That was like the best comparison I've heard. EVER. XD
You know I could see what you were saying with the whole "shingi reluctance" thing, if he didn't do that every episode, but they're also similar in the sense that there was someone else on the journey with him... You know, shingi's right hand
I"m going to thumbs this up even if i haven"t even played journey
Where do these guy's live? Feel's like they upload everytime i wake up >.
Gotta play Journey before next week...
One little correction I have to make to this: The first stage of Hero's Journey is not the Call to Adventure. That's the second stage. The first stage is the Ordinary World, where the world is established a bit, the hero is introduced and we are shown what their ordinary world is like (in the case of Star Wars, it's seeing Luke bored of his life on the moisture farm). But I guess the game Journey doesn't really have that stage, so it would be a bit pointless to include it here.
I never thought of pokemon that way. I always liked having a mute protagonist. It made it feel as if it was yourself in that situation, which is why you name yourself. If you have a protagonist that talks, and they make all the decisions on their own, it feels like you have no control, and are watching a movie, not playing a game. In pokemon, you get to explore and choose what you do and how you do it. I thought it made Red feel like more of a human. That's just my opinion, though.