Wait, Did Toby Fox STEAL Music?
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- Опубликовано: 27 сен 2024
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Is the music from Undertale and Deltarune... stolen?! Probably not! But why do people think it is? Today we take a look into some of those songs that sound familiar, as well as Toby Fox's other musical influences!
Thank you to @IronInvoker47 for help researching!
Thank you @Ditchu for the wonderful thumbnail art!
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boo hoo he got a sponsor,,,, anyway
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There are better ways to get the bag, brother.
If Toby Fox stole music, all of your favorite video game composers stole music. If Toby Fox didn't steal music, then all of your favorite video game composers still stole music. Taking inspiration is extremely common in art.
Yeah but what if I hate Toby Fox? What do you have to say about that?
@@justsomeburgerwhy would you do a thing like that?
@@justsomeburger I can't speak for RougeMephilesClone, but I have to say that burgers usually don't have opinions on Toby Fox
So if Toby didn't steal music, then all the other composers are still guilty...how does that work?
but almost EVERY song tho? I get taking inspiration for a handful but goddang. it seems like almost every song just rides off something else
NO WAY! MUSICIANS CAN BE INFLUCENCED BY OTHER MUSIC???!!!
@kirby3969 The title is a clear false accusation for click bait purposes. If watching the video is the standard response then it would become an endless feedback loop of "no way! *watches video*" Next video with false or ridiculous claim "no way! *watches video*". He is attempting to trick us into watching his videos with his vague clickbait titles.
@@Galaxia53i genuinely just watched the video because of toby fox, actually HAHAHA
I know absolutely NOTHING about music, so this is actually new to me 😭
@kirby3969Did you? Seeing you probably liked clickbait news
@@LunaMinunaand the cat
Talking about Toby Fox's inspirations without taking about Touhou is like taking about fish without mentioning the fact that they are in water. Good video anyways.
yeah except most people do talk about fish without mentioning they're in water considering it's a given
@@dunkleosteusterrelli exactly
Thank you for actually covernig the truth on why Music is the way it is. LIke. People who think Toby stole stuff really just doesn't know shit about Music Theory and how Music as a concept is basically solved? Like we know what makes things sound good, sound bad, sound sad, sound happy, sound eerie, etc. etc. It's just the sad limit of music, but like Toby really REALLY is inspired by other games and music after all.
I think that's a bit overselling it, there are yet weirder and wackier frontiers of music theory to explore. But yeah if you're making something in a familiar style instead of 7D Post-Progressive Jazzobeat then you're necessarily using elements that other composers have used before you and it'd be stupid to call that stealing because it's stupid for anyone to claim to own them.
cover huh?
I haven’t seen much people complain about toby stealing music, where u getting that from?
@@Min4617_then you haven't been on the internet.
@@felonyx5123 True if you're gonna go into like sub sub genres of music that use like Microtonal intervals that normals instruments can't really play or use weird and wacky chord progression. But as Alax pointed out... music that sounds good just is the way it is. Take a look at the 4 chords of Pop you know what song also uses those?? Canon in D by Pachabel. Good sounding music is just how it is haha
I'm surprised you didn't talk about touhou at all it's arguably his biggest inspiration
He started a music collab with the creator of the series, Zun, earlier this year
i mean straight up i heard U N owen was her and i thought it was in undertale
Undertales/Deltarunes whole Battle System is inspired by Touhou (Bullet Hell style dodging).
@@rileymack1489You can hear Hartmann’s Youkai Girl and Bad Apple in Your Best Nightmare.
almost every single one of videos like this dont talk about Touhou, but I've come to the realization that not everyone know Touhou and I should give up on my expectations
Apparently he also talked to him and probably Mrs. ZUN, but that's behind a newsletter
That I V I and the II V I chord progressions are popularly used because they have a sense of finality and completion since they return back to the root of the key (the 1 in Alax's examples). That's what your brain expects to hear at the end of a phrase, even if you're not musically inclined; plus it just sounds really satisfying lol
Gotta make the song sound pleasing and have some finality after all
Finally someone talks about Brandish being far closer linked to Undertale and Deltarune than EarthBound could ever hope to be.
Live a Live is a lot closer too in terms of gameplay ideas
I heard megaten was also a big inspiration
it's got the same story beats, which is the same thing as saying 'it's got the same chord progression' (which the man in the video up above talked about). it's similar, but undertale and deltarune have a similar and inspired vibe from earthbound in particular, and also other mother games, and probably every videogame that the toby fox man played when he was five. this said, I will freely admit I haven't played brandish, so feel free to tell me about all of the similarities I don't know about.
Hey, but that's just a theory. A GAM-
undertale's entire true ending is inspired by mother 3
It's kind of reassuring to hear someone emphasize just how much creative work doesn't just magic itself out of thin air.
When I see something really inspiring, it can feel discouraging that I can't just make something out of nothing, but no one should really be expected to do that. That's not how creativity works at all.
I guess part of the reason I feel like that IS how things work is because my art teacher always discouraged me and other students from pulling inspiration from any modern commercial work... but it's those works that made me want to get into art and music in the first place. Everything is a remix, at the end of the day.
Damn that's a bad teacher.
It's a common thing for art teachers, especially for younger kids, to say unfortunately. I think a large part of that is because if left unfettered, many of those students would just be using it to make fan art of whatever anime is really popular at the time lmao. Still, art teachers need to learn to approach this situation with nuance and not discourage creativity just because it's inspired by something popular.
Exact same fellow splatoon pfp user
I love how in every video Alax just appears with the most ridiculous joke or says something unexpected. Truly one of the greatest channels on RUclips
I love how In every Alax video, Alax is in the video. Truly one of the greatest
Wait what needlemouse how are you everywhere for me all of the sudden
yea he is super underrated in my opinion. Quality of his videos are top notch
and somehow, it's dk screaming in a minecart falling to his demise everytime
Fr and hey needle mouse!
As a music composer myself, I am constantly taking inspiration from other sources, mainly Xenoblade and Undertale and a few others. I've recycled small bits of melodies from other music, but it's different enough that it becomes its own thing. My dad always says "Nothing is original. Everything borrows from something." That is not more true than in music. It's cool seeing where Toby Fox got his inspiration from though.
It’s hard coming up with a 100 percent original melody
@@FellowInconsistentas someone who can't make original music to save my life, yes. Yes it's very hard
With that type of mindset it's basically a guarantee your music will be trash
@@Sigledriceman No, I don't think so. I'm not sure where you got that idea from. Also, have you even listened to some of my stuff?
@@Sigledricemantruly original music doesn't exist anymore
I love this music break down. Gosh Toby is smart and artists who compose music for videogames get really creative and reinventive and recycle/improve.
i was not expecting you to delve into toby's history that deep to be honest, hell even I learned new things from this video. Like, I never knew Varik from eb: hh was from Brandish, even though I vaguely knew Toby got some other inspirations from that game. W video.
How did you not mention Touhou once in this video??? Not only did it inspire Battle Against a True Hero, but the ENTIRE COMBAT SYSTEM.
ZUN and Toby literally doing a collab next year where they’re going to remix each other’s songs.
How many composers have had so much scrutiny applied to their music as Toby? If you take literally any composer and micro-analyze their choices in context of everything they’ve ever listened to, of course you’re going to find similarities. That’s just how the human brain works - it takes what it’s seen before and repackages it, hopefully in a creative and unique way.
The real question is: why are we so obsessed with finding “plagiarism” in Toby’s work? It costs you nothing to let the man enjoy his success.
7:47 GRANDAD!?
FLINTSTONES!?!
@@Xenon_XTH* FLEENTSTONES?!?
If you guys like Toby’s music, I highly recommend listening to his work on Homestuck! The Alterniabound album is a great start, along with some of his piano pieces like Penumbra Phantasm. Actually, listening to Toby’s stuff is what dragged me into Homestuck and it was a pretty worthwhile read! Lots of fun characters and jokes (and the craziest transuniversal-timetravel plot Ive seen)
I HATE HOMESTUCK
based
Yeah homestuck was definitely worth reading for the music alone…even if it is very dumb lmao
Dude, don’t say that Homestuck’s a slur!
Yeah his music in homestuck is really good. One of my favorite songs from it that he made is moonsetter; it's just overall a great song.
If anyone can say that they havent randomly had a melody in their head as they cant remember where its from, thats prob what happens to toby
I won't lie, this is definitely me when I'm driving
I'm not going to lie to you. I'm not the best.
THANK YOU for mentioning and going so in depth with Brandish! No one ever mentions it and it's kind of wild since it's SO hugely inspirational to Toby's games. Such an obscure and basically unknown little series inspiring one of the most beloved games of all time. People in the comments keep talking about Touhou but basically everyone already knows those comparisons, I'm glad you talked about Brandish instead
6:42 As an architect, that wasn’t too good of a comparison, sometimes we copy and paste buildings, which is not what you want people to think of when discussing plagiarism lol
"Well the nature of song-writing is that there are only 12 fucking notes." - Will Wood
I should also mention that burgentrucking has a part thats eerily similar to quarz quadrant present japanese version
In Your Best Nightmare, Toby uses bits extremely similar to parts in Bad Apple!! and Hartmann's Youkai Girl(both Touhou songs)
It's becoming increasingly impressive and annoying at how much Alax somehow ignores ZUN's works as a whole.
Between all of these game music videos, ZUN doesn't get a single mention. And now we have a whole Toby Fox video, whom ZUN's works is a massive inspiration to Undertale and Deltarune, and it happens again.
Its either some sort of incredible coincidence of ignorance, or Alax just straight up has a hidden Touhou hate agenda that he doesn't want to make public.
@@ShinSHOGO I totally feel that; where is the Touhou representation Alax?
12:05, The land that the song was made for is ALSO called a Medium (The name for planets in Homestuck.)
Alex does a whole video on Toby Fox’s music inspirations and somehow completely misses ZUN’s compositions.
I’m at a loss for words.
Well I guess Toby’s songs wouldn’t have existed without those other games… because some Melodies just don’t leave your head. Whenever I try making music in my head for my very own fantasy multiverse and then I end up realizing all of my songs seem familiar with other sounds I found after. I think same happened to him, his brain remembered this as his favorite music so when he tried creating something he calls „good music“ it ends up with his brain bringing his memories back
A famous man once said "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."
A good quote is "A bad artist steals from 1 song, a good one steals from 10"
Not gonna mention the inspiration Toby got from Touhou?
I'm glad you talked about chord progressions and cadences that are very simple to the point of it being used in a lot of places, I've seen a few videos where people will connect to very different songs and call them similar only because of the chords being played that set the tone of the song when the main melody hasn't even started. Also these have become some of my favorite videos of you cause I'm such a big music nerd.
Never thought it was something ever really brought up, but as a composer hoping to get my hands into making music for video games, it's something that's been done throughout history. Inspiration will usually be the seed to the compassion of writing music, while the music theory acts more like the water or the sunshine for your growth in composition. The chord progressions are not only usually taken from inspiration, but as you've put it, it does make it feel more satisfying to go back to the I chord.
1:25 I know this isn’t the point of this video, but what are you gonna type?
exactly my thoughts
ninten
6:27 yo, is that explores of sky?!
Damm that, that is a deep cut!
Nice video
Also, Fun Fact:
The Undertale song "Amalgam" is composed with EarthBound samples
AND NOTHING ELSE
It's 100% EB samples
You could say it's an amalgamation?
I hope you check out Touhou and Touhou songs if you haven't yet, especially if you wanna see Toby's creative process for his upcoming Touhou: Danmaku Kagura remix of U.N. Owen Was Her? and a theme he collabed with ZUN, dev and composer for Touhou himself, to compose, U.N. Owen was Hero?
People need to stop thinking about music like it's a row of trees where ownership is based on who planted it first. Roots will overlap under the soil, and the forest is all the better for it.
8:20 also that music wasn't that commercial and plagiarism meant appreciation as imitation is a form of flattery.
Alax I have discovered you a couple of moths ago and i gotta say you are the best youtuber I have ever seen. The editing is absolutly out of this world and your jokes never miss. Please keep doing what you are doing, every day you post my day gets at least 5 times better.
Thank you
7:47 when granddad looks disgusted but still hit the "yabadabadoo" part.
12:01 Nope, you have that completely wrong, the reference is EVEN MORE overt.
Part of the alternate dimension the characters in Homestuck are transported to for their adventure is called: THE MEDIUM, specifically referring to the section of it where their personal game generated planets reside, which is in the middle of ring of orbits in the solar system model of said dimension, IE it's the MEDIUM of the orbits.
Now the REASON why that song is named after that part of the Homestuck universe is simple, the part of Undertale it plays in is a direct homage to Dave Strider's planet in The Medium, The Land of Heat and Clockwork, as in we, as the player, are in ANOTHER version of the MEDIUM from Homestuck.
Except, here's the thing, that fact applies to EVERY AREA IN THE GAME.
Snowdin is based on the Land of Frost and Frogs, belonging to Jade Harley, who has a super powered WHITE DOG named Becquerel whom she later gets merged with to gain said overpowered abilities. (An NPC modeled after her fusion with Bec is located in the top right of the lobby in Mettaton's hotel, Jade gets a "Wicked Witch of The West" motif after her fusion, and this gets featured with that NPC prominently showing off the Ruby Slippers)
The Ruins are based on Derse.
Waterfall is based on the Land of Wind and Shade, John's planet, characterized by black rivers of oil and BLUE GLOWING MUSHROOMS, and the troll that forms a friendly relationship with John, Vriska, is one of the direct inspirations for Undyne, whom is the boss there. (The other inspiration being Meenah, another troll that Vriska falls in love with)
Hotland is, as mentioned before, based on Dave's planet, which is a land of lava and rock, with big clockwork machines dotting the sea of magma, similar visually to seeing the CORE in the background in Hotland, along with being akin to all the gizmos dotted around there.
THE CORE is vaguely based on the various meteor base labs throughout Homestuck, but the TRUE Lab is just an outright 1 to 1 to them.
Finally, NEW Home may be based on Derse's counterpart and enemy, Prospit, but Prospit is golden, not white.
Take this whole argument against Toby Fox's originality with music, and then apply it to his writing and worldbuilding and make it 200% more valid and obvious, so much of Undertale is straight ripped from Homestuck, and this is coming from someone who played Undertale first and went into Homestuck because of it, the references and homages are EVERYWHERE.
Fun fact: Toby fox worked on some of the music for Homestuck
@@littlemonster7917 Some, more like A LOT.
And he didn't just work on the music, he was the Lead Music Coordinator for the ENTIRE music team.
@@Cri_Jackal huh… Neat, I only knew he ATLEAST worked on some of the music
Honestly really happy you mentioned that WELCOME TO THE CITY borrows a motif from Itoki Hana's 74, I don't see enough people talking about it and I find it really interesting. Considering how Toby did also work with Itoki Hana on the song
Surprising lack of "The Baby Is You" motif being used in the Pokemon Sword/Shield "Battle Tower Theme" during the TobyFox section, but other than that overall great video, Alax! 👏
Thank you for making such a thoughtful and informative video on this kind of subject!
There are a finite number of ways you can arrange notes on a scale that sound pleasant to the human ear, so it's impossible not to "copy" something that's been made before at some point in the past. Of course as you state in your video there are definitely times where inspiration, parody, and genuine plagiarism are real, but those are all defined by intent, right?
Sometimes it's easy to forget that "We stand on the shoulders of giants".
Man nobody is talking about the touhou project themes that inspired toby fox and the sound similarities found in some of their songs most notably, Omega Flowey’s theme
I am now very depressed :(
9:10 The flowers in Magicant from Earthbound.
Lost it at the basically perfectly matching Kirby music that got me so good lol
I feel like the vast majority of these songs and themes in Toby's writing show inspiration or homage to other games, not downright ripping them off. There are a few songs that sound identical entirely. Though I don't think he's ever been malicious about any of this and I think the focus here is more on how he's inspired than "it sounds LIKE this so its stolen", which that second notion is ridiculous to me
If there is no mention of Touhou I will be sad
Me and you are sad 😢
We are sad :(
10:02 oh that's varik.
0:23 I see what you did there with the Sega font representing sampling.
i think people forget that just because a song may have the same notes, it doesnt mean it was inspired or stolen from a different song. sure, its entirely possible that it could have been inspired, planned for years, rewritten, key scaled, intensified, reworked, and remastered or whatever but it also could have been just a simple coincidence, and that doesnt mean anyone stole anything. and music having the same ending notes or scaling is more common than youd think. waaay more common.
its important to remember that people are going to have the same ideas as other people every once in a while, especially when you grow up listening to a certain genre, and your music taste/composition just naturally forms in the way you express your taste in music. recycling ideas from other creators is common, but not always true. toby could have used notes from a game he once played without even realizing it, and that doesnt mean he stole it.
then again, toby is notorious for creating masterpieces out of masterpieces, and i dont blame him for it. touhou is one of tobys biggest inspirations, and just look at what he did with Battle Against a True Hero.
moral of the story; dont plagiarize, and if you do, just be sneaky about it :P
My attention span isn't this low yet
Undyne's theme (Spear of Justice) is basically Passionate Duelist from Yu-Gi-Oh's Japanese soundtrack.
I'm surprised there was no mention of Flowey's theme and SpongeBob's FUN song.
fr
7:21 I guess the asrial fight using the same moves as magolor makes a lot of sense now
Huh, no mention of Touhou music? Pretty sure that was also a big inspiration (i.e. the zunpets in Battle against a true hero)
So if you look back in the song, is it different different tone with each song but I realize something really did copy it then what did he have to ask the creators and I realize something else did really steal the songs then how come we have different beats. He was obviously inspired of these old games since Kirby was way way back in the old day and a bunch of other games I can name but if Tony fox didn’t really seal them, they have a different time or different beats and or sometimes, remind you about this so I can confirm that Toby Fox did not steal them
Music is literally just history repeating itself. There are only 8 notes in an octave a combination of these notes are bound to sound like something from the past.
12* the black keys count too
Grand-Dad Megadrive was nice. Also Nightmare Knight is probably supposed to be a pastiche of Kirby Boss music. It does use all Kirby instruments.
remember that music plagiarism no longer exists because of that one dude that has the rights to every single melody in existance
4:08 that one got me good
while we're on the topic, there's a Touhou Bad Apple reference in Omega Flowey's theme, and an Evangelion reference in Deltarune
"if you're dumb enough to believe that this is like a student plagerizing a paper, that's your own problem."
3:30 Pretty sure this melody phrase exists in a whole lot of music in general. Bet you can find it from a lot of classical music. You can find basically every possible note pattern from classical music anyway.
7:47 FLEENTSTONES!?
Thank you so much for putting Maya Fey in the thumbnail lol
Also speaking of which, do you ever plan on doing a video on Ace Attorney? I would love to see one from you
0:37 I immediately thought "BFDI!!!"
he didnt steal music, as in songs, but I used to have a dog named music. I got hit on the head by some guy completely covered in foam and he ran away with my music. I can only hope that my dog is alright :(
0:38 omg bfdi
Yay
Only so many different arrangements of notes exist that don't sound terrible and we've been making music for centuries
Speaking of songs from a few years ago made, I’d like to see you release a full version of Cat’s theme from the video game trope video. It’s too damn catchy!
The thing is, these are small music phrases. Much like in writing a story, many of the simplest ideas and phrases have already been written. They may not even need to be lifted to be similar to things which already exist.
Toby Fox clearly was “inspired” by this music!
Knowing such a legendary piece of media takes so much inspiration from other things makes me feel better about how inspired some of my stories are
A little part of me knew all this information all along but Dawn, does it feel good to have it all reinforced, and I'm straight up loving the video format👌👌
Megalovania went full circle from Nintendo hack to Nintendo game later on
Bruh you didn't talk about Touhou
I see some people say Toby stole stuff from OFF and Yume Nikki, outright saying he plagiarized their content and ripped them off. Some people apparently don't understand the concept of iterative art and taking inspiration from other words.
Listen. Listen though. You avoided talking about The Baby Is You, but it's some of the most cursed of Homestuck fanwork put into AN OFFICAL POKEMON GAME. And that is the crowning self-steal I definitely think
So glad you are sponsored Alax, hope you are doing well
I really don't hear the similarities on them, at most they are covers or inspired songs.
Also if I recall... Toby Fox did work on Mother/Earthbound.. Though that could have been a mod he made.
Snowdin doing the same as Don't Forget helps the theory that Sans from undertale is the same one as the one from deltarune, considering the picture in his lab.
7:48 *GRAND DAD????*
1:18 I don’t know about that one. It definitely sounds like a Chrono trigger song though. Like a cross between the brink of time and the chord progression from a strange happening both from the soundtrack. I maybe there’s something closer to it internet eh soundtrack. I could swear that was pulled straight from Chrono Trigger with the way it sounds.
Gaster’s Theme not only uses the piano from Chrono Trigger but is almost identical to the opening of the track “Sealed Door”.
I took you this long, and you finally mentioned Homestuck????
it's like how a lot of artists improve by seeing things other artists do and trying it out themselves, which i think is really cool!
like how you can see a combo in (video game) and try it out for yourself, but on a more performative level.
Dude I’ve been loving these music based vids recently you keep finding ways to blow my mind with these connections
Problem being that I don’t catch on till I’m told basically But…
I haven’t even finished the vid yet but the moment I heard 10:55 O M G
I HEAR IT
I FKN HEAR IT
I CANT GET IT OUT MY HEAD
ITS FKN MEGALOVANIA
When people say people steal music but every single person in record stations also stole music all the way back to the 1800s. We simply just don't have enough varietal chords and songs get stuck in our head.
Surprised he hasn’t sampled in Pokémon music especially considering he practically works for them now lol
Well a lot people think he used PMD2 style font for THE HOLY from Deltarune.
@@dreamj2550I meant the mainline games
It turns out he did
The area zero theme samples the Rick and morty theme I put the comparison on ⏰
@@madnessarcade7447 oh my....
7:47
FLEENTSTONES?!!?
Also worth noting the earthbound games themself actually use other songs as inspiration im pretty sure a remix of Monty pythons flying circus’s theme appears in it
The crowd chatter from that theme is sampled in Your Name, Please.
I cant believe he didnt talk about the saxophone in Megalovania from homestuck, that is the good stuff
5:00 This to me sounds like the last 4-count of the main melody in Dvorak’s New World - which is also the same melody the trumpet player plays in Earthbound.
Dang I didn't know some people wanted Toby's head that bad.
note about 7:28, this is something toby fox said in the most recent valentines newsletter in an interview with ggdg “Not a question! But originally I made a fan song for your character Noisemaster from your old comic Cucumber Quest. (I was big into making music for web comics back then)... This ended up being partially remade and repurposed as Mettaton's theme...”
Potential Soup is a banger ngl
7:47 Grand Genesis
You remind me of the golden age of Jontron, minus the random rascist takes, with a sprinkling of my fav hobby, music. subbed!
Im surprised that you didnt talk about how battle againts a true hero is basically a fan made touhou song
10:47 OOOOOOOOOOOO