Surface Grinder Part 11 - S02E40
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- Опубликовано: 5 окт 2024
- I don't mean to alarm you, but this might actually work
Now go watch some folks that actually know what they're doing:
Steve Summers: • New machine tool in th...
Robin Renzetti: • PRECISION GROUND TOOLR...
Tom Lipton/oxtool: • Cylindrical Grinding o...
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Oh and hey, we'll be at MakerFaire Orlando Nov 10-11. Come hang out with us!
Music:
Brotherhood by Young Rich Pixies (Amazing Journey) - Artlist
Halation by Evolv (Thoughts Awaken US) - Artlist 
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Just a note. That's a small, lightweight machine, that's made from thin steel welded channel and no cast iron to absorb vibrations. You need some way to balance that grinding wheel or else the whole machine will vibrate. That wavyness you see isn't from hand feeding, or the slides being loose. It's from the spindle bounding up and down due to imbalance of the machine and the lack of stiffness. My reocmmendatarion would be to add a spindle nose with a taper to fit hubs that can be balanced, and to stiffen the frame with cement poured around the steel. It's cheap, strong, and will help absorb vibrations while making the machine heavier and more stable.
Sounds good advice to me. Can't wait to see the finished article -keep going boys.
Yep. The old boys didn’t make the old machines heavy just to give people hernias, it’s for shear ridgidity and stability. More heavy more bettererer. Otherwise it’s great watching you blokes giving it a go.
Thank you!!! Words out of my own mouth
I agree More Mass Is your friend and a way to balance the wheel.
Concrete! Add more concrete;) Concrete is low cost "cast iron" vibration absorber.
Indicating a vise of the moving jaw rather than the fixed jaw is likely to make any achieved squareness be a matter of luck rather than certainty...
Great video, looking forward to seeing it completed. Just a note when tramming up a vice on the mill you will get far better results using the fixed jaw not the moving. 👍
Always the fixed jaw
That chatter won't go away with the adjustments you mentioned. Sorry. It will make metal shiny but your foundation lacks the rigidity necessary to maintain a constant height of the grains doing the cutting. You don't want to believe that, you dismissively call those of us who warned you about that issue over a year ago "haters", and you may actually succeed in finding a set of spindle and table speeds (after days of trial and error) that allow you to get a pretty good finish on one material, but with a different material or as the wheel wears down and the resulting change in diameter and SFPM changes the resonant frequency of the assembly you'll be back to trying to tweak the numbers to get it to work again. Because that's not the actual problem. That frame is ringing like a bell even if you can't see it. A high speed camera would show you that what we've been saying all along is true. Get your hands on a Chronos and see for yourself.
A sound pickup on the frame, hooked to an oscilloscope or spectrum analyzer, will show big peaks at the resonant frequencies.
What you guys are doing is actually an amazing look into how technology has evolved to be more and more precise by using lathes and mills to create even more precise lathes and mills. Just a constant iterative process of lowering tolerances over and over. Keep the great work up, it’s all really motivating. Sure you can go out and buy the best of the best and have a baller set up out of the gate, but the amount you guys have learned about the tools you’re using/ building by doing it this way is priceless experience through trial and error.
seems like you are stuck in an endless loop of using the mill to make the grinder better to make the lathe better to make the grinder better or so :D
hahahahahah exactly
I almost forgot what they are building the surface grinder for.
This seems to be the vicious circle of the home hobby shop.
And as they get more skilled in what they are doing they will need to go back and things to get them to the same standard
I can see the logic in all this madness :-)
Great job guys. I know you have a million and 1 comments but you might want to try this before you do too much more fettling on the grinder. What you are seeing is wheel bounce, not bad bearings or hand feeding issues (these may rear there head in a lesser form as you get the main problem resolved). Try dressing a step in your wheel so that you only have 3 or 4 mm in contact with the work. There are some big forces ploughing material off, even at very small depths. A thinner wheel makes this much easier for a light machine to handle.
ahhh, that "goodai welcome to clickspring" joke. I ACTUALLY lol'd.
I like to watch both channels, but they are not exactly in the same league. I love PA because of their enthusiasm and Clickspring for his mastery.
I watch both too! I'm laughing cause the nod to clickspring sorta caught me off guard, and it was well played.
Great work guys! I would suggest using a thinner wheel for that machine. The less mass moving around on that tiny machine the better.
I am looking at what's wrong but, all design elements aside, dress not only the bottom but the sides of the wheel. This really helps the natural balance from a mostly uniform structure. Grinding wheel balancers are available but, without the precision interchangeable hub, it's a waste of time. As someone familiar with surface grinders, I suggest a really tight, well fitting wheel to spindle hub. Most real nice wheels have a polymer center machined to a nice slip fit on standard spindle hub diameters. The, what appears to be, bench grinder wheel, not so much. The rest of your design seems plausible for mediocre results but hey, what are you looking for?
".. but hey, what are you looking for?". Views.
Wheel selection and proper dressing methods will be very important in your final results. You can have the best surface grinder in the world and get bad results if these two points are not addressed correctly.
Steve
don't keep making excuses, you doing a great job on a budget, it works so you should be proud as an ex uni. lecture from oxford your concept and ideas are great, yes you may and will do modifications as things improve, so pat your selves on the back and have a beer, great job.
Just found your channel last night. I reeeeally appreciate all the effort that you put in to your videography! Keep up the good work!
I'm impressed with your performance and your commitment. Great project and nice to watch the progress
I have been working with grinding machines for years and I don't think this machine is going to be more precise than your mill. Except for the fact that the surface will be grinded (with a bad surface result if you don't rebuild your spindle), I don't see any improvement compared to your mill.
Your main problem is the spindle and the bad damping in your welding construction. Welding is a reasonable way to go but you have to always consider the damping (maybe glassfiber reinforced concrete as somebody already mentioned).
The spindle is not stiff enough and will always tend to vibrate. Keep in mind that the forces on the spindle and the machine itself are much higher in grinding processes than in turning or milling processes (talking about finishing process!).
You also have to balance the grinding wheel.
The rest of your machine looks good. I really like the effort you put in this. Please don't missunderstand this as "hating" or something, but building a machine like this just isn't all that easy. Although I'm really looking forward to the next videos and I wish you best luck on solving the problems! :-)
Nice to see you guys continue this project, there is no shame in evaluating the current build and deciding to re-do a couple of things. It just means that you are learning and are involved in the project!
When you put your guards in, I would strongly suggest that the wheel guard surrounds the wheel top, sides, front and rear (to help protect EVERYTHING/EVERYONE in your shop in case your wheel shatters. I suggest you leave no more than 1/4 to 3/8 inch clearance between the bottom of the guard and the top of the piece being ground. I would also suggest you mount a strong vacuum that can easily handle fine metal dust on the left side of the table as that is where the wheel is spitting the dust out. Other than that, looks good. as others have suggested, dressing the sides of the wheel as well as the bottom and adding a lot more weight to the base should handle the wobbles but be VERY careful when dressing the sides (front & rear), taking VERY light passes, I've seen a wheel come apart like a fragmentation grenade when someone took too heavy a pass on the side with a dressing tool, we were finding pieces of the wheel everywhere for days afterwords and the only reason the kid (this was in high school machine shop) kept his sight is he was wearing heavy duty safety glasses, both lenses looked like they had been sand blasted...
Nice seeing the grinder evolve.
Glad you show the bits that didn't work out instead of editing them out. So easy to pretent you got it right first time like some. Keep the content coming 😊
Keep up the good work gentlemen. You're an inspiration to all machine building daydreamers.
Actually, I can't speak for all, So I'll just speak for myself.
When I saw the video in my recommended, I looked over it, then went .. hey it's the surface grinder .. great to see another video on it .. it's great to see you getting some use out of your milling machine and working to make everything better .. don't worry about the finish that you go, it works great .. the only thing that I can think of is balancing the wheel with a counterbalance, but not sure about how you could fit that into the design, the other method would be to use a Tapered Roller Bearing on the shaft closest to the wheel and then just a pilot bearing on the shaft at the back. This way the design would be capable of holding the front load capacities of the spinning wheel much better than just a standard ball bearing. This is why they use tapered roller bearings on the wheels of a car as all the load is external to the spindle.
Otherwise, great work .. love seeing an idea coming into reality :D
Excellent references! I really enjoy watching the video's that Steve, Tom and Robin upload.
Great video. Nice to see you referencing Chris @ Clickspring and ToT. Double points!! Extra points for the homage to ToT!! @6.42
Love your ingenuity and attention to detail boys 👍🏻 I’m no engineer but love watching people make things 😆 Cheers and well done Stevie 🏴
It's been a long haul but it's really fun to finally see this doing a bit of work!
those waves in the grinding are from the wheel moving up and down , similar to washboard surfaces on dirt roads. Stiffen the spindle and/or structure, try much lighter cuts. Glad you are enjoying your journey, that's what counts!
Interesting video. A word of advice. When milling flat components do not clamp them down onto the table until you have machined a flat surface onto them or they will still be curved when you unclamp them. 3 point mounting for the first face.
of course it will work, eventually. if it doesnt work you just keep improving it until it does - thats the whole point about it. i dont think a surface grinder is a tool that you are going to use all too often, but its a fun build and a really nice process (and a nice tool even tough its kinda overkill for almost everything)
Mad respect to you for this project, until the haters make their own surface grinder they can ... well you know. I have to confess I let out an audible "what are you doing!" when indicating the moving jaw on the vise. As others have said the fixed jaw is the way to go. Keep up the hard work, you have a new subscriber.
Glad you didn't wait to try it... lol enjoying the building and impressed with ingenuity and problem solving!
You will get there, it is an interesting project to watch, and viewers like myself learn alongside with you. Thumbs up !!
Keep up the great work. Looking forward to seeing the completed unit.
If you had a surface grinder it would make making a surface grinder a lot easier.
That always seems to be the case doesn't it. That's why I end up with two versions of tools all the time. Happened with the 3d printer and laser cutter.
I look forward to your videos as much as I do to new clickspring videos.
You're absolutely right. Given all the adjustment still needed that's a great result.
Great work! Don't forget to grind in your chuck :-) Looking forward to the next vid!
You could use some aquarium filter floss (polyester pillow filling) to keep the metal and some dust out of the motors on the surface grinder. It's cheap and easy to work with so as it gets dirty just toss it and put a new piece. It shouldn't block to much air flow.
Kinda unbelievable this is still gonna be the first complete series of a surface grinder build on RUclips...
Not much unbelievable about it. Even benchtop surface grinders (such as my own Covel) have massive castings. That mass is crucial to the performance of the machine and the quality of the work it produces. This is a fun exercise but most people who want a surface grinder have a different set of criteria than these two, which makes a shop made surface grinder highly impractical. There are builds out there on machinist forums and such, but most people buy instead of build. When you understand the problems with building one there's not much mystery to the lack of build videos. Not impossible, just very impractical.
@@intjonmiller But for the home hobby shop, impractical and fun is often the bread and butter.
@Imrahil that's why there's still much more videos than 3 to do on the matter 😜
@John Miller I was also thinking about the mass and vibration issues... Structure and can still be wrapped with still plates and filled with dampening material like epoxy concrete.
Anyway guys this is a superb series I'm greatly enjoying and hope you'll get the result you're aiming at. In any case, you'll surely have learnt a lot on the path and shared experience with the greatest number, and that is worth anything.
ToT, Clickspring, Abomb, gracious nods to the greats! Subbed!
Love the videos, you run across the “foundations of mechanical accuracy” by Wayne R. Moore, was mentioned in the most recent oxtool Monday night meatloaf. Seems right up your alley, I’m looking to see if I can get my hands on a copy.
When I use to surface grind years ago, we would start the spindle and let it warm up to swell the bearings and then it did not get shut it off till the days work was done. I noticed that if I did have to restart it... you MUST re-dress the wheel or you will get chatter like your part had.
W0W, the surface grinder will not die and collect dust in the corner of the garage... You just gave it life, congratz! I like the 6:42 magic wand, an This Old Tony homage perhaps.
As has been commented several times already, the chatter that you're seeing isn't due to anything other than the wheel being unbalanced and that causing it to spin around an axis slightly off center to your spindle. The somewhat flimsy construction will be making this worse, but its not the root cause.
I've worked in shops with 2 different work methods surrounding dealing with balance. 1st and seemingly most common is similar to what you did with one important difference. Lots of shops will never bother with balancing the wheel on a hub and just dress the wheel slightly out of balance (quality surface grinder wheels are generally fairly balanced right out of the box) and the freshly dressed surfaces will be true to the actual axis of rotation, not the center of the spindle. Now here is the important part, KEEP THE WHEEL RUNNING while you take off the dressing diamond and mount your work piece. This is important because as soon as you stop and start the wheel again it will find a new axis of rotation different from the one you dressed earlier and you'll get chatter.
The other method is more involved but tends to be easier on your spindle bearings and extends your grinding wheels life by requiring less dressing. It involves mounting the wheel on it's own hub and balancing it with balancing weights mounted to the hub.
A couple things to keep an eye on.
1. Please put a guard around that wheel before you start it up again. Yes, many people will use surface grinders without them as I have too when the job made the cover inconvenient. But you guys are using a home brew machine and the carnage that can ensue when a grinding wheel explodes can be pretty bad.
2. Not sure what sort of wheel you're using , but please make sure to get a wheel meant for surface grinding, not one meant for a bench grinder. They may seem to be very similar, but surface grinder wheels are generally made to tighter tolerances and are more friable.
Considering this is just a shop built grinder it seems to be working fairly well all things considered. Looking forward to seeing it in use.
3. If you're not going to balance the wheel, then you may be able to reduce vibration if you have a variable RPM by finding the RPM that avoids any resonant frequencies that will be inevitable with a light-weight design such as yours. Though that may be aiming at a moving target that changes as your wheel get lighter and lighter with each dressing.
Congrats on your first grind. Keep up the momentum and don't let opinions rob your curiosity and willingness to tackle things from a different angle.
Looks good, and much more compact than the Jones & Shipman one I have used!
You are going to have to compensate for backlash in how your are attaching the drive screws and runout as well, I would suggest preloading the driving nut or add on another nut and attach it offset enough to take out the backlash
Always aproach your grinding wheel from the back if you want to re-dress it. If you start at the front side of the wheel, the diamond might get pulled under and into the wheel, that can be very dangerous. Otherwise, great build!
Your doing all right boys just keep going, you don’t learn just by watching someone else, you got have a go your self, if something doesn’t work how you want it to ,find the problem and fix it 😀😀😀😀😀😀😀
Alan.
Fuck me, building your own surface grinder, that's a cool project, I'd love to take part or go at it myself one day.
As someone ready mentioned above, vibration is a killer for precision tools, that's why all these old machines have cast iron bases. You have to find a way to keep the whole setup stiff, good luck and I'm also looking forward to future projects of yours.
Congratulations!!,!! It’s been an amazing journey
Just found your channel this weekend and binge watched all of it. Ty for the great content guys. I'm thinking of putting together a channel much like yours as you've inspired me. I have 2 children under the age of 3 so I'm looking for a show of hands in the comment section of who would be interested in watching me make stuff except that on my channel it will take 6 months to make what PA makes in one day. 😉
Ahh, you need the audience from Click Springs......... "in this episode I'm going to make a cog"! Just be warned, he makes most machinists feel like they still need more skill! Lol
one thing i seen on other grinders (tool and surface) was that they had a taper in the axle and every stone had its own hub that fitted the taper in the main shaft same way as in a mill
doing it this way makes it eazier to keep the stones round and square to the surface even after changing them , come to think of it it might allso prevent the stone from developping a crack from thightening and loosening it on the spindle a few times
I call that a win in my book! Big milestone there! Gratz y'all!
Yeah... you do need to get that motor hidden away or sealed up or something... if it's picked up all those chips just being in the workshop... imagine what it's going to be like when it get's it's teeth round some of that nommy grinding dust goodness... Yikes.
Excellent videos, keep up The Great Work.
When can I has t-sharts?
I just picked up a T&C grinder for my shop. Still waiting on some 3phase for it, but should have it up and running in the next couple of weeks.
That's awesome! Congrats. Share some some picks when you get it up and running
Of course, I just posted a quick video covering my new Lathe and the grinder that sort of came with it. ruclips.net/video/ezMrGN7oO5Q/видео.html
your table movement looks good, if you get the wheel balanced and running true you should be able to get some good results.
also what flavour grinding wheel is that? if its a pedestal wheel try to find a proper surface grinding wheel.
a soft white AO wheel should be a good starting point
This is a labour of love, with your shop do you actually need it? I think it's great that your carrying on, as it also shows how much accuracy making one takes!!!
Trying to use and then salvage the welded in nut on the acme threaded rod is probably the hard way to try to get that axis working right. Far better to 1. machine a block to be held captive (not welded to) the moving platform, 2. bore and thread it parallel it's registration surface, 3. build the cage for the threaded block such that it can move perpendicular to the axis of interest, but held firmly along the direction of movement.
Loving the work you guys are doing and sharing with the rest of us, keep it up. I suggest going with a somewhat smoother music. The loud drumming action made me turn the sound off. I would rather be able to hear the machines running the background with some soft soothing music.
Just as a heads up: I took the piece Mike ground in the video over to the surface plate and that chatter/waviness only measures 1-2 tenths. So looks much worse than it actually is. Also keep in mind the torque on those angular contact bearings is critical, and right now I can feel physical play. This might be closer to possible than we thought...
Yes, but does it measure flat across the whole surface? If not, there is hardly any point in building the machine if it can't produce flat results.
Also minus points for continuiung to use wrong axis nomenclature.
It's starting to look like a grinder!! Sweet! 👍 Have you thought about having it as a belt grinder style surface grinder? Apparently they are much easier to use as you don't have to worry about the grinder wheel constantly changing size while in use. And it's a lot easier to change grits as well as a much larger selection. 🤔
@Mr Takisawa ok, thanks, that does make sence. When I've watched people grinding large areas and re-dressing the wheel after grinding each piece (or probably what looks like every piece), I've always wondered how much of a difference the is in thickness due to where on the grinder wheel. If it's only the leading edge doing the cutting as that looses materiel, there's always more edge being exposed...... or until that's happened across the whole face of the stone, which I'm guessing would take a lot of grinding!
Thanks for the reply
The only people hating are the ones who would never have the balls to even attempt to build something like this. I am no grinder expert but I already know what you have will work...will it work well? That remains to be seen but either way, this is awesome.
wow finally getting to see this thing done. Then again, he does give production value... and then there's the cat.
I want you to be able to take my advice. Please dont take it as criticism. Please add mass to the machine. You could achive this with a bucket full of concrete hung from a spring. Or adding concrete mostly up the base. Mills are made from cast to prevent vibrations. Also please grind your Chuck once its all done
the clickspring filing joke was good
Love the clickspring reference! Just make sure you post more videos than him! Can't get enough
It definitely looks like an achievement! Congrats!
Ohh, you lads got just enough chops for that Clickspring reference... Good onya mate
The biggest problem is you are use'd wrong bearings. At first you have to balance the grinding wheel, the spindle and all turning part's. The next big problem is using to smal steel plates.Your test grinding show's chattering marks.
Your construction with a lot of welding part produces vibrations. The best and cheapest way is cover up your construction with sheet metal and fill it with a mineral polyester mix...
They're precision SKS angular contact bearings
Ryan Wilhelm yes, and there is a reason real surface grinders use adjustable journal bearings rather than rolling element bearings. The runout of a rolling element bearing based spindle can only ever be so good. If you want better results you must go to journal bearings or hydrostatic/hydrodynamic bearings.
Here's the manual for a brown and sharpe #5 machine: vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2185/5790.pdf If you skip to page 14 you'll see it's using plain bearings. The diagram they show seems to illustrate an angular contact bearing setup. Maybe modern machines specify hydro bearings, but looks like these got the job done back in the day too.
A plain bearing (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_bearing) is the same thing as a journal bearing. I can assure you, that Brown and Sharpe does not use rolling element bearings for its spindle. The plain bearing consists of a precision shaft running in a precision bushing, which is usually adjustable in these applications to be able to reduce the running clearances to a minimum.
Hydro bearings are essentially what journal or plain bearings developed into and have a complete lack of metal to metal contact during operation.
This is not to say that precision SKS angular contact bearings are bad bearings, this is just not the right application for them. You can build beautiful milling spindles with them, but by their nature they simply fall short when it comes to grinding spindles.
G'day that was a good fix, I am new to your channel and find it interesting I have subscribed and look forward to following along regards John Tasmania Australia.
I hope you're able to alleviate that wicked chatter somehow buddy, that's been my major concern about this design all along. I don't think it's stemming from being hand fed, but rather is the result of not using precision tapered spindle bearings, but I'm sure you'll figure something out! Keep it up and Good luck!
Lack of rigidity. Look for slack, flexibility, or smth and eliminate. Redesing spindle. And use thin (10 mm) grinding wheel. Good luck!
Because of the material choice and construction method, this surface grinder might suffer from poor surface finish due to resonance in the frame. That said, I’ve followed this build from the start and I’m excited to see it take shape. Keep up the good work
Thanks man, both Ryan and I think this is a possibility. Being cnc controlled, there is a chance we can tune that resonate frequency out with feeds and speeds. But we won't know until it's done. Also the chatter you see in my test is also a result of a loose spindle bearing.
I missed seeing the runout of the leadscrew itself.
The ballscrew cannot be useful if there is too much runout on the leadscrew.
Nylon ballscrew can be printed on a 3D printer.
You need an DIY ATX POWER SUPPLY.
You need a 4axis Stepper Motor Controller with a Pendant (serial port joystick/gamepad)
Have fun... !!
AWESOME MEEKNESS ON THE PROJECT.
"Welcome to clickspring" had me laughing
Have a look at Robert Cowan 'How to Battle-Harden Motors'.
It may help with metal dust problem
Love his channel.
Dude it is fun to build stuff and I'm not a hater but for a surface grinder, there are so many old beasts out there for short money. I paid 500 for a Brown&Sharp that works perfectly... I smile every time I use it on something.Cheers
You guys are a lot like me. Spending hours upon hours trying to reinvent the wheel, just because the 'real thing' is too expensive. I'm not judging, because I'm still in the same situation. That said, I think my next investment will be a sound system in my shop, which plays inspirational music while I work. >.>
@1:14 You are indicating the wrong jaw. The movable jaw normally has .005"-.015" play in it when not clamping something. Indicate the rigged jaw the other will self align parallel when tightened.
I'll guess the controll will be a custom solution? Or do you intend to use something prooven to be working (linuxcnc, grbl, smoothieware) and add a gcode generator? Both would have its pros and cons.
Way too cool guys, definitely a job well done!
Good stuff there boys. Thanks for sharing
I think that the metal sheet in Z axis is too thin for such dimensions. IMO, this gives you some wobble that results in those traces you can see on the second sample.
I just hope to live enough to see the grinder finished so the lathe can be finished. Cheers!
You and me both! But for real, i actually think we are a lot close then it seems. But I have been wrong about these things before ;)
Cool that you guys could get the real Chris to come all that way to help with your filing work.
Too bad he clearly had a cold or something.
Nice Video, Sometime im building also an surface grinder like you.
No hate here. Just trying to learn through others before I go jump off the bridge to fabricate my own machine shop. I am a retired engineer who wants to become a good hobby machinist prior to my leaving this world for parts unknown. Really, folks, and you know, for sure, where you are heading. I was going to point a few things out but many comments say the same things. Thanks.
Supper work n enjoying yr video big lik
build an enclosure for the motor with a computer fan pulling air out and sucking it in through a changable/cleanable filter
Maybe enclose the motor with a shroud and feed it with compressed air to make postive pressure and cool it at the same time?
U guys need to make more videos!!!!
Well as a maker whos biggest thrill is making my own tools I think its coming along great, despite what the haters are saying in here. Most probably cant make anything
Nice machine build.
tapered roller bearings with correct preload might perform better.
I myself can not see what you are doing wrong, I’d do the same thing, yes it maybe a little dangerous but that’s what it’s all about, you have to see things work before you go any further well I do anyway, great project great ideas great to watch and follow, can’t wait till the next video guys, bloody awesome 👍👍👍👍
A serious question, why not just use the milling machine to surface? Don't grinding wheels wear down?
Yup, I'd do like this: take old horisontal milling machine and set up grinding spindle.
I see someone mentioned wheel balancing. It'd be a good idea.
IT WORKS! Amazing, well done chaps :)
So you say there was work you couldn't do without the mini-mill, but your round column drill has a 2axis table, right? Does it not have a milling spindle? Or is it just not up to making good work? I ask because I have lucked into a huge roundcolumn mill/drill and would like to know someone else's opinions on their shortcomings.
Steve Summers has some great tool grinding videos along with many others, but he doesn't have a surface grinder yet. You may be thinking of Stan at Bar Z Industrial, he has a lot surface grinding content if you go back in his timeline his channel is "Shadon HKW" on YT.
Always indicate against fixed jaw (back jaw) of a vise for setup.