Why Is It Important To Question Religion?
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- Abhishek from India wants to know why it’s so important to question religious beliefs and focus on its problems when it does have benefits.
This clip is from The Atheist Experience, Episode 27.10 for March 05, 2023 with JMike and Forrest Valkai
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As a an atheist who was indoctrinated and believed until my 20s or so, I literally blame the religion for my personal struggles I have had with purpose and grief. It is like a false security blanket and like a child doesn't want to give up their security blanket, it's hard for theist to give it up too so honestly it breaks my heart knowing how much religion is in the life of ones I love and how it's hurting people every day.
I posted something on mainstream re the latest shooting at the school in Nashville. The usual republican response ...thoughts and prayers....it's the mental health....many people in the US have mental health issues because of religion and indoctrination.
How much damage religions have done to our species and societies and continues to damage.
It's very difficult not to be mad.
@@davidcross4815 Perhaps you and I were priests in our previous lives and were responsible for some of that damage. Annoying isn't it? Don't get mad, take a breath and dance. Some of the religious types were our victims last time. One doesn't have to be religious to know God exists. One only has to fear him more than one fears man and wisdom will follow. Atheists are some of the most religious people in the world. They can't wait to hear the latest homily from their pastors, and attend the church that delivers the message that soothes their ears. No difference between an atheist and a Muslim when it comes to religion.
@@carladams8691 Except for the fact you never had another life. Reincarnation is just another dumb belief to make people feel better the same as Christianity or any other superstitious make-believe religion. Atheism is not a religion. Atheism is not even a belief. It is the opposite of belief or the lack of a belief. Theism is the claim some god exists, and atheism is just saying I don't believe your claim. Your ignorance of what atheism is does not make it a belief. All you are doing here is showing your own ignorance. You had no previous life, and you are never going to have another life. When this life ends that is the end of you forever. Reality may be hard for some people, but it's still reality. Just make the best of what you do have.
Fantastic attitude from the caller. Felt like an actual decent conversation that was at least somewhat productive, unlike a lot of other callers.
Eastern religions (Hinduism, Buddhism) seem to produce more nice people than Western ones, generally speaking. There's something in the culture that's more humble and respectful.
@@SaintD382 yeah I definitely either see extremism or being super respectful from foreign people that are religious
Foreign to me I mean im in USA but there are a ton extremist here
This caller is pretty nice.. He listens and never been rude..
Tbh, I prefer callers like this.. Having good conversations where we learn something, and not to lose brain cells of how absurb they sound like.
Yup, while on occasion its nice to see the more spicy caller, I honestly love this type as a regular where they ask honest questions.
I’m always flabbergasted by people who can’t understand the concept of asking questions objectively.
Religion negatively affects billions of people all over the world. To never wonder why is… something.
Religion positively affects billions of people all over the world as well.
You have to remember that only about 7% are atheists, 93% believe in God or a higher power.
@@geraldpolzinjr9670 More *LIES* and misrepresentation of the facts by Gerald the HypoCritstian
It’s important to question, period. Scepticism and critical thinking enable us to challenge and eventually throw out bad ideas and substitute better ones. Religious ideas are no exception.
They’re an exception because they’re somehow still around. This isn’t because the ideologies are actually good, (slave ownership, homosexuality is sin, etc) but rather because it has managed to cheat the test of time. And indoctrination be thy name of their cheat sheet.
@@ruaraidh74 on what basis do you claim that I’ve never questioned it? Do you consider yourself a mind reader (if so, better luck next time), or are you just trying to be a smartarse?
@@ruaraidh74 what constitutes a good or bad idea is an entirely separate question to whether one has ever questioned the value of scepticism and critical thinking. So I am not sure of the relevance of your question.
@@ruaraidh74 if you think it's relevant, why can't you explain why you think that without an answer? And why should I care what you think?
Yeah, no. Questioning evolution without any education on the topic is stupid.
If you don't have the education to properly question something you really should just learn about it rather than "question it" and " being a "sceptic" of it.
In other words, you are a very popular moron saying "do your own researchs" when in reality if people do that they will pretty much always come up with the wrong conclusion.,
You have to have the capacity and education to do that and now, you don't.
So your trust should be in the experts.
Since I walked away from religion at 18 years old and didn’t spend much of my life under the indoctrination, I never really had the “angry atheist” experience at all. I have had discussions with believers but 99% of them ended the minute I said I did not believe the bible or believe in a god.
Similar here, except that I am REALLY getting angry at Christian Nationalists. Especially after hearing the thinking atheist recent interview.
I also left religion around that age. I didn't necessarily have a phase of preaching atheism. I did however have a few heated arguments with my mother who was very concerned that I didn't believe Jesus died for our sins.
The reason I didn't go around telling people I'm an atheist is an odd one though. My mother has a very large family, all of which are extremely Catholic. Im certain that if I told them I didn't believe, they would judge my mother. How ironic is it that she raised the only logical children, yet would be considered a bad mother by her fellow believers? Hell is real, here in America it's called the bible belt.
@@ohana8535 Have you read Andrew Seidel book? There are a large number of facts that blow the Christian Nationalists out of the water. America may have a large Christian population but we are in no way a christian nation.
I did have a phase but that was more caused by seeing just how much influence Christianity had in my life in the UK & how much worse it is in the US.
@@wj2036 I didn’t really tell anybody as I shortly after left home for the military. Got married while on active duty and after that I stayed 2000 miles away. My entire family was very staunch Catholic and I had gone to parochial schools for 7 years of primary education. I think my parents knew but it was never discussed.
The most annoying thing to me is that I know teachers who deny Evolution because of their religion.
They should be fired on the spot!
@@holgerlubotzki3469 yep. They are welcome to believe what they want, but if they can't do the job they were hired to do (teach the curriculum), they shouldn't have applied for the job in the first place.
@@dorsdonstowe9403 AGAIN: *HOW the energy in a log became CONCENTRATED into the wood, such that it can be released in burning.* The log didn't exist 6000 years ago, so God didn't magic it in there, *so HOW did it get in there??*
@@dorsdonstowe9403 “Atheism is debunked”
Says the fake theologian, fake physician/surgeon, fake National Guard and CIA officer and whatever other careers you pretend you have that I’ve forgotten.
These two are a force on the show. Always enjoy it when they are on! Intelligent, convicted, yet respectful.
Yeah, this duo is one of my favorite combos -- although any show with Forrest is going to be a favorite for me.
We shouldn't have ever normalized people being delusional and having imaginary friends to begin with..it's so insane
@@wrencestonbillstowe6461 religion is pure evil. The thing is you actually know your god is false, which is why you are so emotional when reminded of that. I hope one day they find a cure for you.
@@wrencestonbillstowe6461 you dont understand what athiesm is if you expect it to encompass an explanation for anything. Its a singular position, the position that one is not sufficiently convinced that magic and fairy tales are real.
@@wrencestonbillstowe6461 also your religion has no rational, possible explanation for anything at all. Which is funny because thats actually what it attempts, whereas atheism isn't an attempt to explain any of that it simply means i doubt that your unsupported claim is true.
@@wrencestonbillstowe6461 also atheism is not a religious cult since it is literally not even an organization or a philosophy like buddhism or christianity or islam. You have a poor grasp on the english language, perhaps you would be better served sticking to your first language.
@@wrencestonbillstowe6461 the problem with society is that we allow you people to indoctrinate , torture, and victimize children. I think if there were no religious people we would see a sharp decline in pedophilia because thats really your main goal, to isolate kids and then groom them into your religion. Thats why you people must be stopped.
I listened to this episode last Wednesday during a long walk.
• yeah the previous "ghost" conversation was mind boggling and kudos to the level of patience demonstrated by JMike and Forrest.
• this talk with Abhishek was very constructive and respectful from both sides and I could relate strongly with this because I have discussions about beliefs and religion with my own mother.
Keep this up guys!
Hey Abishek, I hope you're reading this, but I can relate to your brother. I am from SEA myself so our culture can be quite similar, and like JMike said, "newfound atheism" can sometimes be this thing you want to show off because for such a long time you felt lied to.
And I actually did what your bro did with both my parents. And tbh, it isn't very pretty. It often leads to heated exchange and if your parents are so steeped in religion they often can't see outside of it. It makes you feel like you're the adult and not them and they even admitted to me that I know more than them.
I don't know about your bro, maybe his attitude will die down. But for the time being, like JMike and Forrest said, being compassionate is extremely important. I sometimes forget that as an atheist because I show no compassion or respect to beliefs but my words are still directed at people.
And this is something that will help both theist or atheist. Understand and be patient with both your bro and your mom.
I give no respect towards beliefs. But I try to respect people and know that there's a time and place (if at all!) to question or challenge people's beliefs, especially if me not doing so leads to harmful actions and results.
I’ve never been a theist, which I’m grateful for. I am fascinated by the universe, learning new things, exploring being alive. Death is frightening, absolutely. But whenever I go out into the mountains, or walk alone in nature, I feel the vastness of the world around me, the depths of time and space, the incalculable emptiness.
And it’s super, super comforting.
As soon as I recognise my insignificance, all of my worries and anxieties are given perspective. And it releases me. It allows me to carry on living life in the knowledge that I’m not carrying the expectations of heaven and earth on my shoulders, that doing the best I can is more than enough.
Atheism isn’t just truth to me. It’s the most uplifting liberation from the prison of my own mind. It gives me scale. And it doesn’t threaten to punish me with eternal existence.
Which Krisjuns believe in hell? The Johobas Helpers? The Mermans? The 7 day Inventist? They all say let go and let god. I don't understand how this ignorant bliss of yours is meaningful because the emergence of an autistic experience of wonder and amazement at it's accidental self.
@@Thistuffgetnucknfutz incoherent, rewrite
@@joshsheridan9511 Wasn't trying to write in propa English, suh. If you don't like it, don't read it.
When ApotHead was twice in jail
The other inmates didn't think he was male
so they went on a bender
having mistaken his gender
And now ApotHead's ego is awfully frail.
"Truth?" Says the lost and clueless atheist fool that thinks star dust, moist rocks and mud puddles have the INTELLIGENCE, POWER, PURPOSE AND MEANS to create/design LIFE, INTELLIGENCE, LOVE, CONSCIOUSNESS, MORALITY, the human being and ALL the co-existent bodily systems (circulatory, respiratory, reproductive, pulmonic, digestive, skeletal, muscular, nervous, body (skin), etc., etc.) intertwined in co-dependent order in the human body :) Atheism is pure idiocy.
The religious cult of atheism is INFAMOUS the world over for having ZERO ANSWERS. That's because atheism RUNS from "reality." I would add that as an atheist, you're bankrupt of RATIONAL/POSSIBLE causes for life, intelligence, consciousness, morality and ALL the co-existent bodily systems (circulatory, respiratory, reproductive, pulmonic, digestive, skeletal, muscular, nervous, body (skin), etc., etc.) intertwined in co-dependent order in the human body.
Atheism has no RATIONAL/POSSIBLE, step by step atheist explanation for reality. That’s because there isn’t one. THINK ABOUT what you’re getting into w/ the cult of atheism. GET OUT NOW. I’ll help you find truth. Atheism has none.
Indoctrination? Kids? I want YOU mutt-stupid atheist liberals to stay away from kids. I don’t want them thinking they came from a rock and that they are nothing but the worthless sum of MINDLESS chemical reactions that made them into a worthless evolved animal. I want them to know that they have a purpose in life - to love G0D and love their neighbor as themselves. A lot of these school shootings are the result of your idiotic religion of atheism.
As a Indian myself JMike your Hindi is quite good for a beginner, when I was young I also started watching Hollywood movies to improve my English and it was really helpful so I will say continue to watch bollywood movies it's a tried and tested method. I will just advice one thing for future that will help you with pronounciation of words, in Hindi language there are words which are spoken like that they have gender so I will say you should look into that.
and I thought I was the only Indian following Atheist Experience...am from Hyderabad Buddy, where you from?
Do you mean that some Hindi words have a gender article like Spanish, German, and others have ? Spanish has el and la and German uses die, das and der.
@@PraveenKumar-dj1yg I really think their approach to any argument is to look at it from a logical point of view which is one of the reason I follow them by the way I am from Pune.
@@kihntagious Yes in hindi not all but many words have gender article. This also happens when you talk about something non living for example when you talk about water you adress it as male where as if you are talking about pencil it's adresse as female.
@@PraveenKumar-dj1yg I'm Indian and have been a long time follower of the channel. I especially like Forrest.
I don't believe anymore. But my parents are 80 plus years old. I did reveal my deconstruction to them but I am NOT trying to convince them to turn from their faith. It would not serve any purpose. When my eyes were opened it was devastating! It rocked my world. I'm not going to do that to my parents at their age.
Love hearing great calls like this! Always a breath of fresh air when a caller wants to actually have a conversation
Keep questioning, eventually you will find the truth.
Mathew 7:7
@@geraldpolzinjr9670 Matthew 7:8 "For everyone who asks receives;"
Ahh well, never mind...back to the bollocks.
I realise now these liked are probably from athiests 🤣
@@williamproffitt6688 Highly likely, as no one has ever shown "god" to be the correct answer to anything.
@@njones420 Well yea? Or everyone would just agree
Great conversation, and really good to see a theist simply be open to understanding others who don't see things their way or put his head in the sand. Great chat team. 😊
This caller was a good call. He actually listened and for a theist had actual logical questions.
Great caller. Much better than the usual “flowers are pretty so god” we get
It's amazing the immense wealth of the Vatican based on mythology.
You are God's real life creature sweetheart it's not a myth
@@MagicalChemicalDaddyso many years of trolling and yet still no proof of anything
@@MagicalChemicalDaddy No calvin, your mythical god never existed, and that is ok.
@@MagicalChemicalDaddy I'm a real live being, god not so much
He's a troll. MCD is not worth the time.
My response to "you mean I'm never going to see xxxxx loved one again?" is "You mean you want your Mom knowing EVERYTHING you've ever done or thought?" (Biblical: we will be known even as we known.)
A few people have even put some thought into that before their meekly spoken "no".
They have never considered how long eternity is either. It never ever ever ends!
wow JMIke! super impressed hindi/urdu is not easy to learn
I love these 2 together ❤ awesome duo
Great call. Abhishek was respectful and LISTENED. He was there to learn.
Our ancient ancestors pondered on the nature of the world around them and wrote fantastical stories to try and explain what they saw. Many of these stories contained gods, Goddesses and other magical beings.
They are interesting and have influenced cultures around the world but why would anyone believe that they are true?
Because they want to since it gives them a comfortable feeling and promises of an eternal paradise/threats of eternal agony if they dare disagree. It’s definitely not because they think it’s true. Most religious people have no clue what the holy book that they were raised to believe in actually says
At some point in a person's life It's important to question pretty much everything.
Including the belief systems handed down to you from family and community, from country and corporations. All of them.
Dont be afraid to read the fine print of the cultural contracts you've been born into.
"Don't be afraid to read the fine print of the cultural contracts you've been born into."
Damn. Well said! 🍻
Read it with a critical eye
I really liked Abhishek, I hope he calls into the show again one day.
Unrelated to content of the call, but I loved JMike's enthusiasm and excitement when told he was doing well in learning Hindi 😁
14:58
Thanks for this tag.
If a person has a reason to respect a parent, they should.
That reason should never be because they are a parent, or an attempted facsimile thereof.
Why would I show compasion to persons that consider me "of the devil"?
Great insight on the adulting aspect of realizing that one is on their own.
Being respectful of your "opposition," be it religious or otherwise, is always the first step to getting along and getting closer to the truth. Props to Abhishek for the immense kindness.
Nope, placating charlatans is certainly not conducive to getting closer to the truth.
@@schnoz2372 well, you can respectfully tell someone they are completely wrong ;)
That said, no mercy for the apologist trolls. Those people are dishonest, so ZERO respect or reason for politeness
@@CyberBeep_kenshi as you always should, but yeah, misogyny, racism, etc bad behavior shouldn't be tolerated just because they're someone's religious beliefs
Omg Forest, you delivered GOLD. Consider me more inspired!
Because some try passing legislation based on those beliefs.
God is your legislator creaturine
@@MagicalChemicalDaddy Why would you make laws 📜 for something so beneath you? Do you make laws for ants 🐜?
@@UniDocs_Mahapushpa_Cyavana That's not how this works creature. The universe obeys laws. Science does. You are your God's science.
This is all energy. Consciousness is at the helm of it this is a fact. So yes there are laws that govern reality. That's how you have an experience you narcissist
Ants operate within universal laws and so do you. You do that because that how life can be comprehended. This is common sense. Do not ask dumb questions
@@UniDocs_Mahapushpa_Cyavana Well, IF there's a god that had the power to create the universe, it wouldn't are about some "legislation" that a human makes. And it CERTAINLY wouldn't care what humans do in the bedroom.
BUT, if you are some incel who's all hot and bothered about other people's lives, you would want to imagine that there's some god to justify their bigotry. That way, they get to say, "I'm VERY open minded about trans issues, it's just that my god creature says it's a big no-no. Sorry, out of my hands."
@@MagicalChemicalDaddy No calvin, your god never legislated anything because it never existed, and that is ok.
Its absolutely important to question religion & religious beliefs because when someone tells you to except something on faith & not on evidence, they are either passing on information ignorantly & never questioned or set out to decieve you. I have seen people hold on to there cherished beliefs even if there is evidence to tell them otherwise. I did for years with denying slavery was in the bible, because i felt comfortable having the idea of having a God over my life. I was comfortable but not happy/content.
What do you call "evidence"? You cannot judge the spiritual world by physical criteria. To say that there is no spiritual dimension is an assumption; saying that it could exist is honest.
@@douglaidlaw740 *You cannot judge the spiritual world by physical criteria*
Ok, then how do you judge it? Please be sure to address how you're accounting for potential bias in your study. And of course there's no sense in investigating any unfalsifiable claims, so what would you need to in order to falsify your hypothesis?
@@douglaidlaw740 We can maybe judge based on what people say about it, and how consistent they are with each other, I guess?
I'd prefer a PKE meter or something, but those are a rarity.
Also, yes, it is an assumption, for many - but also for many, simply a matter of 'does that realm have daily relevance' or not, likely.
@@douglaidlaw740 until a spiritual world is proven to exist there's nothing to judge.
@@chrissonofpear1384 Anecdotes are not Anecdata- Matt D
i will be 21 years old in may, and i have been an atheist for little over a year now, i grew up in a very religious home, and when i left left i felt really nihilistic, it was sort of like the shirt thing mike said, i felt i needed validation from my dad who is a preist on why did i feel this way and justification for why if he existed god let me go through this process, honestly i regret coming out to my parents before i left home, and one thing i hope, abhishek's brother will learn is that, your belief is your own you really dont have to include anyone in it, unless someone asks dont tell, and i hope he makes things right with his mother
Your brain is still forming until 25, however the term old wise man is untrue. Men don't suddenly become wise at some old date! Even a child can be wiser than a parent.
Personal beliefs do matter, they form our actions. Thus if you had a personal hidden belief which was untrue, wouldn't you want to know that?
Your parents were faulty here, you are the victim of that. Do NOT take on the misguidance that somehow in some twisted way the victim is at fault, they are not, and nor are you for respecting the truth even openly expressing that.
If I were your parent I would have thanked you in informing me that truth matters.
The amount of people (atheists) coming out and regretting being honest to themselves and others is about 1%.
However I accept this is not always an easy process with fanatically religous parents or community.
You are a little braver than I am, at 50 I still haven't told my parents I don't believe. They should have gotten the hint by now, but I've never come right out and told them I don't buy into their religious nonsense. Never felt the need to justify myself to them, but we aren't that close. But I also understand Abhishek's brother wanting to confront everyone about his new lack of beliefs, 1000%.
Correct me if I'm wrong are you saying because you have free will,, like you said God what you go through stuff,,you became an atheist unwilling or unable to accept God as true and no quality of evidence can ever change that.
@@christendomforu.s.a. it seems you got it wrong. And try again using the words they actually used. Not the ones that pop into your head that aren’t in the screen.
@@jayrose8638 really? I don't think so why don't you clarify if that's the case. I'm guessing you're not going to be able to do that.
Excuse in 3 2 1
Funny little note on the idea that people have been religious so long that they can't imagine living without it. My parents were big Salvation Army church folk. When my dad was dying from cancer he said "I hope there's a Salvation Army in heaven. Otherwise I don't want to go." He was only partially joking. He was not comfortable at any church but "The Army".
Jethro Tull referenced The Salvation Army in the song "Aqualung"
"Feeling alone, The Army's up the road
Salvation ala mode and a cup of tea"
Thank you for showing compassion and patience, I've been deconstructing for 3 years, and when I realized I was by myself, no one looking over me-it was terrifying, it still is at times.
i cant even imagine what its like to learn you are probably never seeing a relative or someone you loved again. while always having thought you would. i have lost a vew people and pets in my life. and i sometimes think about them ofcourse. and sure i miss them. but i have dealt with the pain of losing them. instead of shrugging it off like nothing happened
I’m a lifelong atheist and I lost my son a couple of years ago. Not for a single moment have I felt bad about never seeing him again, even though I never loved anyone as much as my children. A never ever ending afterlife is far far worse. People who believe that’s a good thing have clearly not given it much thought. And also, don’t they have family members they can barely be around for a day before they’re fed up with them? Imagine having to spend an eternity with those.
The great thing about science is that it does not require my faith or belief. It's true, regardless of my position.
Great call. Great conversation. Thanks to all three of you👍🏻
I am also a "cradle Atheist." It wasn't a case of my parents being Atheists. The weird truth of it is that they simply never brought up religion at all. I didn't find out that my mother identifies as Catholic until I was 43 years old.
Since I've never believed, I can't really relate to the struggles that come with believers who are being faced with the truth for the first time. I used to approach Christians in the way that they approached me, with a bit of aggression. I am working on being more compassionate in my approach.
Excuse me but did I miss something? No one is trying to take away anyone's religion . This site is devoted more to understanding them. As far as I'm aware no one has suggested that anyone should abandon their religion or become an atheist, for that that matter. Atheists aren't in the business of converting people to become atheists. All they do is ask questions which their logic doesn't make sense of!
Now that was a caller who has my admiration. If only other callers could be like him.
Forrest, that's the message that will create change. I've thought that since the 70s You have an important new voice. I'm back to listening to AE
Very important point about showing compassion. This is like breaking to a child that Santa doesn’t exist. You should do that gently and respectfully. Being a life time atheist my self which really disappointed my parents I learned that anyone is in their right to believe what they will and be treated respectfully as long as they don’t use their beliefs to enforce rules on others.
Believe in Jehova, Buddha, Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, nothing at all or whatever makes your day. But don’t FORCE it upon others.
This is the best guy I’ve heard on this show fr no cap
This was one of my fav recent calls. They were truly open minded.
Excellent show as always.
To that Indian guys brother? I would simply say that fairness is universally appropriate.
~ Imagine the mother was an atheist, & the son found religion. ~ Would it be appropriate, to rub this new found belief in her face. Directly countering her own? 🙂
I don't believe in anything I have to believe in.
Good one!
I went through the opposite. When I stopped believing I was around 12 years old. I kept it to myself, didn’t try to talk theists out of believing. However, I had plenty of people try to talk me into coming back into the fold.
And you're still that 12 year old boy, mentally. Only you don't have a horned drag queen in a public school asking you if you want to sit on his lap so he can read you a gay fairytale.
Apothead came out and tried his lame rappin'
And whined and whined when there was nobody clappin'
Always fixated on Aron Ra
And other things mostly bizarre
While it was just his vag-flaps a flappin'
@@Thistuffgetnucknfutz bud you really shouldn't be commenting on others mental age. And do a bit of real research. A child is more at risk from a cis father than a drag queen never mind all those "straight " priests, pastors, elders and other religious leaders.
@Holgirl, you're the best gay rapper ever. One hit wonder remixes. And nobody can dare say you copy paste and add a few words to other peoples material.
aPotHead the felon thought he was tough
and had some big stories about struttin' his stuff,
but he was well known in the shower block
while he was tending to c*@k
And screaming enough!!! Not so Rough!!!
Great reply Jmike and Forrest. Well explained.
Fascism gives a lot of meaning to a lot of people, just like religion does.
If ,as I did come to the realization that religion is manmade for power and control, it does not mean I embrace nihilism ! To me it means I got this one great life to live to the fullest, no big rescue coming , I've got to do it right !
The question I ask theists the most is, "Will you just leave Me Alone?!"
Then don't come here preaching atheism, because that asinine, dangerous garbage will not be tolerated.
@@sineaddwanson9294 LOL!!! He LITERALLY asked to be left alone and you went and made a strawman argument that he was "preaching" to you... on an atheism channel! 🤣🤣🤣
You are... special. 🙃
@@sineaddwanson9294 Proved his point by being just... not intelligent nor a good person
@@jquest99 Wrong. He appeared on these threads demanding that he tell me what to do. If he doesn't want to be addressed, don't come on these threads telling preachers not to preach, when God demands us to preach:
”And Jesus told them, “Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone.” - Mark 16:15
”And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.” - Luke 14:23
I'm very special.
@@roskiart8750 "Not intelligent?" Says the lost and clueless atheist fool that thinks star dust, moist rocks and mud puddles have the INTELLIGENCE, POWER, PURPOSE AND MEANS to create/design LIFE, INTELLIGENCE, LOVE, CONSCIOUSNESS, MORALITY, the human being and ALL the co-existent bodily systems (circulatory, respiratory, reproductive, pulmonic, digestive, skeletal, muscular, nervous, body (skin), etc., etc.) intertwined in co-dependent order in the human body :) Atheism is pure idiocy.
GREAT CALL. I think I will start using the term "new shirt atheist". I've tried many times to explain this situation to theists that come on to atheist forums...How many people responding are just learning how much they've been hurt, and they are very bitter and defensive, and often take extremist stances
Science entails beliefs also. No one person can have tested EVERYTHING to satisfy the "know" issue, but scientists depend on experts in specific fields to do the knowing, and prove the knowing, however, the belief in ideas that have not been, cannot be, tested, THAT is faith. Faith is no reason to believe anything, but believing expers who have tested, who can test, who will continue to test, is not faith, but knowing, even if it turns out wrong later because more information is acquired.
Stay thirsty, my friends.
Exactly on point. Read, listen, and study. Question everything.
That's right. We all have beliefs, because those are just a way of talking about the internal models that we inevitably maintain about the world.
We'd be at an extreme functional disadvantage if we didn't have internal models such as object persistence. When we see a man who walks behind a tree, the man disappears from our perception, but we still believe that he exists, probably behind the tree. Object persistence is cognitively interesting because it's not active in newborn human infants. It appears in the course of cognitive development. Infants are indeed at great disadvantage, which is why our species has evolved such strong protective instincts toward infants, so as to give them a chance to develop these essential abilities.
Faith is a particular kind of belief or cognitive state, one which is based particularly in emotion rather than reasonable justification. This requires some explanation.
When infants first begin to develop cognitive state, they have not yet learned to reason, so all their beliefs are directly associated with experience. When the experience stops, so does the belief, until persistence begins to develop. Then it becomes possible to maintain a belief, for a time, even without direct experience. But such an effect is relatively brief, then forgotten.
So, further along the arc of cognitive development, the ability to prolong belief will draw upon emotion, which among its other effects is a way to emphasize memories, another form of cognitive statefulness. It's this primitive emotional "need to believe" that underlies faith. Originally it was an evolutionary adaptation toward coupling past memories with present beliefs by drawing upon emotional significance. When we have faith in something, we act as if it's true whether or not there is evidence that it's true. And ultimately this is a very strong limitation of faith. It's an ad hoc evolutionary adaptation to circumstance because of our emotional associations, either wanting something to be true or dreading the alternative.
Faith is not rational, and it's not even evidential. It's emotional. That's a problem for us, because it actively resists evidence and reason. As our species has learned to think abstractly, faith holds us back.
I do think that we have to be true to our emotions if we want to live in integrity. Integrity is navigating through the network of reasons and intuitions. For example, some people think very responsibly about whether or not it's appropriate to eat meat. There are reasoned arguments pro and con, with subjective weights assigned to each. And there are for each person many emotions and instincts which have to be accommodated somehow. To live with integrity is to work toward bringing those factors into some kind of coherent balance. This I think is praiseworthy.
To live in faith is something else almost antithetical to integrity. It means to pretend to know things that are not known, in order to feel primitive emotional comfort. It bypasses our higher cognitive functions and takes away our sense of agency and ultimate responsibility. Anything can be overlooked, on faith. Nothing can be overlooked, in integrity.
Scientists tentatively believe.
They are willing to give up beliefs if evidence shows that they were wrong.
That is confidence not faith.
Science also NEVER claims to know everything. Or absolute certainty. And for religions to do so is by definition dishonest. And obviously they cannot prove a thing. So they introduced the idea that blind belief (faith) is actually a good thing. While it is the opposite. Faith is the worst thing you can have.
In science we have a certain amount of trust in a theory, based on how much we know about it. And for example evolution that certainty is 99.99999999% (basically it is a 100% but we are polite and never an absolute ;-)
Excellent call, wouldn't mind if he calls back👍
Few countries better exemplify many of the problems of religion than India. The country has a terrible conflict amongst its religious subpopulations and, even within the religions, are issues of caste/class/takfir etc.
I didn't lose anything when I gave up religion. I thought I would but I didn't. All the awe, wonder and connection to the larger world is still here. I just stopped attributing it to gods and spirits. The world is awesome and wonderous enough all by itself. I still have morals. I still care about other people. Probably more than I did when I was religious. I care about everyone now. Not just the people in my group.
This is a topic I have considered very carefully......the thing is people act on their beliefs, but more importantly they spread their beliefs....up to that point it seems managable....But the trouble is people want to spread their idiot beliefs to those who cannot defend against mis information, so others must step up to help them. Indoctrinating and brainwashing children under the age of consent in any way is evil and society has a duty of care.....and unfortunately because religion fights dirty, atheists need to be ruthlessly aggressive in their attack on the stupidity of idiot god beliefs....otherwise that tolerance shown gets exploited by religion and its existence continues and it has functioned fthat way with tolerance for over 2000 years by exploiting peoples tolerance, so new shirt or not its time to end this, the world is to small and fragile to tolerate religion and gods any longer....be aggressive be intolerant or be extinct are the only options we have left.
Brilliant conversation you two guys just get better and better at what you do and more power to the caller for being honest and sincere
The end of the world has been imminent for 2000 years. Please define imminent, please.
Imminent, meaning before our sun goes supernova. 😅
You are imminently a creature of your God.
Soon
Anytime in the next 50 million years
@@MagicalChemicalDaddy Keep flapping your gums. Let's see where that will get ya! Not a good look. Knock it off.
When I question religious concepts I am not attempting to cause someone to "lose their faith". My goal is to get those with very simplistic and fundamental beliefs to develop their critical thinking skills and to realize that indoctrination and bias are very real limitations. There are a great many very successful, intelligent and well-educated individuals who maintain a personal faith and I have no reason to deter them. The problem I think should be addressed is the fact that there are so many that lack the ability to think for themselves and choose to be so easily manipulated when, as individuals, some have the potential to be quite intelligent and thoughtful.
If anyone claims that their beliefs cannot be questioned, then they're most probably highly afraid of the answers to the questions about their beliefs.
The truth has nothing to fear by inquiry.
Shorter way of what you said. ;)
Truth hurts.
Beliefs to be questioned? Absolutely. So why don't you tell me how a mud puddle (or some other atheist cause) had the INTELLIGENCE, POWER, PURPOSE, RESOURCES & MEANS to produce in us LIFE, INTELLIGENCE, LOVE, CONSCIOUSNESS & MORALITY, not to mention ALL the co-existent DESIGNED bodily systems (circulatory, respiratory, reproductive, pulmonic, digestive, skeletal, muscular, nervous, body (skin), etc., etc.) intertwined in order in the human body and THAT SAME DESIGN seen in MILLIONS of other animals?
@@sineaddwanson9294 derp why don't you tell everyone how the Ark had gratings in its roof to let fresh air in
@@sineaddwanson9294 "Absolutely. So why don't you tell me how a mud puddle (or some other atheist cause) had the INTELLIGENCE, POWER, PURPOSE, RESOURCES & MEANS to produce i"
It didn't. There is no purpose. The resources were already there. And no intelligence was involved.
"and THAT SAME DESIGN seen in MILLIONS of other animals?"
Common ancestry.
Religion is not just some passive thing we're trying to understand. It has influence on humanity and while it's debatable how helpful/harmful it's been, that influence is enough to make it an important thing to question. Not because I want to ruin someone's life, or rip their worldview out from under them, but because decisions we make as societies, nations, etc should be based on reasonable, rational, well thought out and questioned ideas. It's strange too, because you would be hard pressed to find anyone, no matter how religious who would say "Herd mentality is a good thing." Instead, they'll pretend they're immune from it.
What can I do to be better? You STOP believing in unsupported nonsense.
What this Indian guy is asking about is whether or not the 'Noble Lie' is a justification for allowing falsehoods to go unchallenged. This was Plato's proposition two and a half millennia ago and it is an interesting argument, not last because it applies to virtually all religious faiths, or at least all those which have become dominant in any particular country or cultural/ethnic group. I think the hosts answered this point reasonably well, but the awful example of what is happening in the USA, where sections of the Evangelical Christian Fundamentalist community have become a fascist, Christian Dominionist, political movement, is mirrored in other religions around the world. In Abhishek's own country we have seen the unwelcome resurgence of Hindu nationalism and 'Hindutva', which has already gone some way to undermining India's status as a secular democracy and is bringing that vast country to the brink of widespread communal violence and bloodshed. Hindu beliefs and traditions are also connected with the continuing survival of reactionary and backward practices such as caste discrimination and entrenched inequality. In majority Buddhist countries (a religion with an unjustified reputation for being peaceful and pacifistic) we have also seen religious identity and faith mobilised in the cause of violent sectarianism and nationalism. And Islamism is a powerful and dangerously violent and oppressive theocratic and fascist ideology in many parts of the world.
It is true that here in the UK, and probably in other countries as well, the decline of Christianity to minority status has caused problems. But these are due to the abject failure of governing political parties and ruling elites to promote an inclusive secular and humanist ethos to replace the widely held religious identity that once provided social cohesion and common values. Our cowardly leaders have also adopted a misguided and disastrous interpretation of 'Multiculturalism' that has meant that the laudable and admirable goal of promoting respect for diversity and tolerance has instead been twisted and perverted to justify a policy of bowing down to vociferous bullies and bigots who seek to advance their own influence through promoting divisive 'identities' and demanding that we accept or ignore the intolerable (such as 'faith schools' that teach homophobia, creationism, and misogyny).
Plato's 'Noble Lie' may have been a useful tool in the tribal, monocultural, monoethnic societies of Iron Age Greece, but it has no place in the twenty-first century.
By reading about religion I come to understand my atheistic philosophy better.
Im a life long atheist, 68 years, and I never felt the need to " convert" anyone to my way of thinking. you, in this video, have given me some reasons. I always just assumed it would be like kicking the crutches out from under someone. I see your point of view and agree with you. next time I get a knock on the at 7:00 in the morning on a Saturday with " do you know Jesus" I may have more to say!
What a great call
Great video guys. The caller was great, too. 👍
Don't know if Forrest and Jmike read these comments, but this is an excellent discussion. I think compassion is a great yardstick. Amongst my siblings we have athiests, missionaries and those that don't have so much of an opion but may class themselves as C of E; somehow we all get along fine, and just know, without having had arguments, what's going to be a fruitless line of debate. I'm not going to disuade my sister from her evangilism; my attempts to do so will only distance me from her. But she's aware of my skepticsm. That's enough for me, that she knows I'm not with her on that. But I am also there for her if she needs me. I have to deal with how she's brought her kids up, but they are great kids, and will find their own way.
5 minutes in and I wonder if they talk about the Dalit (the untouchable caste) in Hinduism. I assume Abishek would be familiar with that concept. It alienates people in a very real way and keeps them from finding opportunities to have better living conditions based solely on their lineage.
My biggest (only?) problem is when celebrating and practicing a religion turns into turning their traditions and belifs on others. The christian nationalism in the USA is trying their hardest to make freedom of religion to mean that their faith be turned into laws. That is way beyond the freedom to practice your religion. They want to take out their beliefs even if it leads to deaths of kids, and threats of people who should have the same rights as others. Isn’t it about respect? If their idea of respecting gays means threats on their blives, tearing down rights to work and so on. Taking the revenge many have in the past could lead to throwing christians to lions. The civilization was exercising respect and then the talk if the people who want to make a christian nation of the USA.
It’s important to question any outlandish claim because if fall for the absurd you’re more willing to commit Atrocities and consider it a good thing
I think this caller, actually, is probably a very intelligent guy.....he is very articulate.....love calls like this
My journey is my personal journey, if your personal journey remains, just that I have no problem with it. When that personal journey stops being personal, and starts being oppressive, then I will speak out against it.
It’s really hard to take away the feeling of comfort that religion brings to the people that you love. I was really lucky, the people around me suffered because I renounced, but let me take my own journey. Without being very pushy, without being sanctimonious and today still love me.
My mum is not devout, but she believes. One day she was staying with me, she read one of my books about the denigration of women in Islam. After that, she had major doubts. She was in so much pain, and I couldn’t stand there Watching that happen. We had a long talk about the parts of it that made her feel good and the parts of it that made her feel bad (the religion that is). Her journey has become much more spiritual since then, fewer rituals, and more critical thinking. But she still believes, and I’m not gonna take that away from her.
For the same reason you should question anything else. You want your beliefs to be true and match reality. My dad told me once that I can not question god, And I let him know I can not believe anything that I can not question. I was 5 years old then,.and still feel the same way.
That is the reason to question it, because it seems so important to so many. Those are the biggest and loudest of things to question. Government and religion have impacts on life and that is why they must be held under a microscope. Basic logic escapes us all at times I suppose.
I’ve been watching AE for at least a decade and I’ve not connected more with what the hosts said during a call than this one.
Wow, an intelligent and compassionate conversation for once.
The linguist JMike showing off, I’m envious.
This conversation reminds me of the story of Dumbo's feather. Dumbo thought it was the feather helping him when it was really his own self doing these amazing things.
Great comments, Forrest. Show compassion but point out how our beliefs affect our actions.
That was literally the best possible answer to the question at hand. 😊
Secular Humanism,separation of church and state
Ultimately alot more harm can be done by misunderstanding reality than can be done by understanding it. So personal feelings aside, what is best for everyone is that they believe only true things, which means faith based religion has to go.
Whether people are distressed by the truth or not its a much much lesser evil than not knowing the truth when you have the power to make use of said truth.
Love how the caller just let mike and forest rant for basically the whole time, seems like he really called to get information, need to do this more myself
One thing what an atheist who wants to de-convert (his mother) is that he should check what the "target" takes positive and uplifting from his belief and provide an alternative - that (s)he can have that in another way, that the positive they in principle have made up by their own anyhow, that it comes from their own heart, and their heart exists with or without God.
Whether you're a believer or not, you should question your belief and why you believe what you do or don't believe.
Faith can be good to find meaning. But it is another thing to demand that meaning of others.
Unfortunately it isn't. You can believe ANYTHING on faith, even opposite claims. So faith is self deception. That never solved anything
Great conversation.
@Abhishek - can people losing their religion make them nihilistic?
Yes.
But it doesn't seem to be the norm. Additionally, with actual support groups out there, with just more open atheists out there, you'll likely even see the number going nihilistic drop even more.
I mean, hell, post Christianity, I see so much more wonder and awe in the world I live in, I take in the good and bad and life has so much more meaning to me because, well, its the life we have.
I agree that it's time for society as a whole to grow up and give up our belief in woo, however, it serves no useful purpose to pound an elderly believer with atheist viewpoints. They're not going to research, and unless they genuinely want to give up religion, it's just going to cause pain. Same in reverse. I speak from experience. The best time to face reality is during your 20's or 30's, when most people are trying to find themselves, and haven't spent a whole lifetime with a particular belief system.
We still don’t have a practical definition of “creation” or even “god” other than “it made everything”.
How? Why? What such being is able to do that? Did it “form” or did it snap its fingers and it just appeared instantaneously?
To ask "HOW" a God does something only parades your stupidity. If we could describe God, he wouldn't be God. Try to learn.
@@wrencestonbillstowe6461 *So, NEPy, are you going to tell us about COCKROACH SOULS today?*
Remember, you claimed that it's the soul leaving the body that causes death, so either:
1. Cockroaches have souls, or;
2. Cockroaches cannot die, or;
3. Cockroaches were never alive.
☝️ *Please choose one!* 🤣
Forrest's "parable of the carpet" is excellent. I think that perfectly sums up the way many Christians view the world: it's not necessary to save it, because God's going to swoop in any day now and destroy it all anyway. I remember thinking that way myself when I was a Christian: smirking inside, feeling "superior" when I saw all the "fools" running around trying to fix the world's problems. "If only they knew," I chuckled to myself. Thank goodness I woke up from that asinine delusion!
I don’t believe in belief. Belief gets in the way of learning (confirmation bias). There are things that I know, there are things that I don’t know, and there are things I’m not sure about. Belief has nothing to do with it. What you call a “belief” is simply an opinion.
As an Indian I can understand why his brother doing that... Because in India we live with our parents whole life and it's very normal to share your thoughts with your family. And her mother is going through questioning her beliefs so it's going to be a painful experience that's natural... Not his brother's fault. And let me tell you religion always affect people, like her mother may not control them much she is absolutely going to control her DIL. Like forcing them to be religious and force them to practice religious nonsense practices, specifically shaming them for periods. So Abhishek stop being mama boy... Your brother doing nothing wrong... Your mother living in a lie and I'm pretty sure her delusional thoughts also hurt your brother. Do you ever thought how your brother must be feeling so alone and his own family force him to do things in the name of respect, culture, tradition ( religion) which makes no sense and are illogical. If she never going to question her beliefs then how are people going to use their specticism and learn new things. Religious people always think that they are so good and they are not harming anyone else but they are always doing harm to others. It would have been better if you cared about your brother more in this situation... because he is telling the truth. Not your mama.
Science and critical thinking is always asking questions. It is it's nature.