Repair BRIDGEPORT MILL Spindle Key TIPS
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- Опубликовано: 4 апр 2020
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Hi
The nose piece actually holds the outer bearing cage in place inside the quill.
You should therefore tighten the nose piece to the correct torque from the maintenance manual and recut a new dimple on the thread, remove all swarf and refit, otherwise the bearings will be loose in the spindle and give rough finishes.
Thanks for a Great video Jack
At 13.24 I have 3 Bridgeports and all 3 have the key removed. They grip just fine on the R8. The motor will pull up before the Collette will spin.
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A tip for reassembling, don’t over tighten the set screw holding that nose piece. It can slightly deform the quill and make the travel seem stiff.
Once you take the nose piece off, you can tighten the spindle lock, insert the draw bar and tap the spindle down in the housing to expose the set screw. This will allow you to use a straight Allen wrench...
Thanks
THANK YOU FOR RECORDING THIS FIX MR. PETE!
Lyle, the purpose of the R8 collet keyway is to prevent collet rotation when running up the draw bar. In the original Bridgeport spindle.the dogpoint setscrew was adequate because it was designed for endmills and light boring requiring low driving torque; the original motor was only 1/3 HP.
The dog point setscrew used to index spindle tooling was never intended to resist cutting torque. It shears at about 70 lb ft, far below the impulse torgue if you over-feed a hole saw or break through hand feeding a 1" S&D drill. Modern turret mills are furnished with 2 HP motors and only a 0.146" dia dog point to drive the spindle tool on a 0.440" net radius. Work the math. It's a shear pin for all practical purposes: the R8 spindle has no effective positive driving feature and the R8 taper is inadequate to provide reliable drive under momentary overload..
In the intervening 80 years, whopper carbide face mills, hole saws, large diameter Silver and Deming drills, sweep tools spanning a 10 " face, etc have become commonplace - as have buggered up and sheared collet indexing setscrews. Once sheared the dog point stub spins with the stalled spindle tool and scores the upper straight collet fit in the spindle often preventing collet extraction. A careful craftsman such as yourself never encounters this problem because you instinctively understand the limits of your machine.
Us noobs and roughnecks sometimes spin or at least slip a tool from over-torque. A revolution or two won"t hurt the spindle taper but it destroys the collet indexing setscrew. Therefore, my advise to turret mill owners is to remove the collet indexing setscrew and throw it far into the bushes. Its presence poses a greater hazard than its absense given the common use of high torque demand spindle tooling.
Your friend who advised you to remove the collet indexing setscrew was correct in my opinion confirmed by long experience in production shops. The question for most of us is not if the spindle tool is over-torqued and slips in the spindle taper but when - it's almost inevitable.
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Very informative. Like to see how things are made and work. Been watching for years. keep going. NOTE: putting things for us to see at the end of the video DOSE NOT work! RUclips puts things on your screen at the end that, block out the things you want to see. Put important content BEFORE the end so we can see it!
An enormous THANK YOU to all RUclips content creators for providing all of us with additional content during this very trying time! I can only speak for myself when I say you are helping me retain what little sanity I have left having been sheltered in place for the last 2 1/2 weeks!!
Glad to help. I actually enjoy this solitude
I REALLY appreciate your thoughts and teaching manner, so continue on soldier. Excellent
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THANK YOU...for sharing. Coffee in hand and enjoyed the video.
I also had Coffee in hand enjoying a morning with with my favorite Shop teacher. I have learned so much from Mr. Pete.
You asked for our thoughts.
It is interesting to note that the indent in the nose piece tread, machined at Bridgeport, would confirm that it should not be tightened fully.
Maybe there is built in allowance for thermal expansion of the bearings or for some other reason ?
Totally agree the grubscrew is not a drive screw much the same as the tang on a Morse taper is for extraction not drive.
In the real world they both will "drive" in border line circumstances.
We have all seen tangs twisted off because they are not strong enough to take the full torque.
Thank you Mr Pete, this helped me repair my machine.
He posted it on April 3rd. BTW I did mine about 3 years ago just about the same way you showed. Thanks for all your great learning videos.
Thanks Mr. Pete, always good to have more info on our Bridgies to keep them happy and running longer.
Great video Mr.Pete. Great info. Thank you for sharing.
Excellent video Lyle. Thank you so much for taking the time to make and share it.
I recommend using only genuine Bridgeport collet alignment keys. The Bridgeport part IS expensive, BUT aftermarket parts are expensive also, and inferior IMHO. The Bridgeport keys have square milled end and are hardened. Aftermarket keys have a round dog point end and usually made of stainless and tend to shear off fairly easy. The thread on these parts is 1/4-32NEF. Please don't try to force a 1/4-28NF set screw, it won't work. After removing the spindle nose, partially driving out the spindle cartridge makes accessing and replacing the collet alignment screw much easier. All R8 tooling have variations in key depth. Measure ALL of your R8 tooling and collets to find the shallowest key. Finding the shallowest key will help to install the collet alignment key and keep tools from binding on the key. The procedure I use and recommend: Slide the tool with the shallowest key in and out of the spindle, turning the key 1/4 turn at a time until it drags or binds on the bottom of the keyway, remove the tool and back the key off 1/2 turn, reinstall the tool, install and tighten the jam screw. I did this in a shop with 14 Bridgeports, of every vintage, and never ran into any issues once I started doing this.
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Thanks old times, you save my day.. Also commentary & tips from this channel.
Great watch and always love hearing of other peoples struggles in the workshop and the way in which some people continue to use a piece of damaged gear to do jobs when the fix is in some cases is pretty simple and yet it always gets the I'll fix it next time, always good to have that rainy day list of jobs👍. As always keep up the excellent work.
Thanks for sharing mrpete. I don't have a Bridgeport but it was edutainment after all. Stay well stay safe. regards from the UK
Thank you for this video and all others.
I had to adjust the key on my machine last night because the collet could not engage the key and difficult to remove from the spindle. Saved the day!
I needed to address this a long time ago. Thank you.
The amount of detail you give is great!!
Thanks
VERY useful info Mr Pete, a lot of vertical mills need this attention. My first job as a machinist trainee was in a 5 man shop, the owner always had red shop rags on his Bridgeport, and he changed them daily, back then all shops had shop towel and apron services lol! Be safe...
It's all in the details!
Always interesting.
Thank you Mr Pete, Just fixed mine that had the pin sheared off
Thanks for another very informative video Mr. Pete.
Thank You Lyle...Always a pleasure to see someone working through a problem I can relate to. 10+ years I have changed the key at work. I will probably never have to at home. U R TOO COOL & ALWAYS THERE..TM
Thanks
I'm about in the middle of rebuilding a Bridgeport J-Head which I bought last year, and which Bubba had filled with grease and sawdust(!!!) as well as snapping the quill feed reverse knob clean off. Half of the handles have been replaced with cap-head screws and the like.
Anyway, tore every single solitary part all the way down, used aircraft remover on it to get all the miserable Ford blue paint off the thing (I was surprised the motor ran at all in that color) and repaint with proper grey.
Hazel, my little girl, (she turns four in August) loves to watch me fool around with this thing. I'll have it up and running for her as a high school graduation present, at least.
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Thanks for the video mrpete. Stay safe and well
Great video thanks for the info. Keep in mind this is a ¼-32 extra fine thread. When the nose piece is removed you thread a collet in the spindle and tap the draw bar to lower the spindle and you'll have a straight shot to the set screw.
I tried this on my machine but it did not work. Did I do something wrong?
Thank you for sharing Lyle.
I bought a Supermax mill that someone actually drilled the nose cap all the way through and put a long flat tip screw in place THROUGH the nose cap into the collet. I couldn't figure out why the nose cap was just hanging on the screw not knowing how it was originally. By doing what they did, it immediately stripped my nose cap threads and it was spinning with the bits. This video helped me understand what is all goofed up on mine! I've found the parts and luckily my quill looks un damaged. Thanks!
Thanks Mr Pete. Just about to do mine
Mr. Pete, thanks especially for the videos at this time. Any youtuber who is putting up videos now is doing something to get people's minds off the current epidemic and reminding everyone that they too can make something at home in their shop that may indeed be very good for the mental health.
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Lyle the BP manual says the cap should NOT be tight and that there should be a 3 thou gap between the cap and the quill. Also DO NOT over tighten the rear screw into the dimple as it will distort the cap . Thanks for the video.
Dave, I do not know how you are interpreting the instructions... The cap for sure should not be contacting the bottom face of the quill. There should be some gap there. The cap is really applying clamping force to the spindle bearings outer race. But you do want to torque the cap. If you do not, the bearings will have no preload. The word "tight" can mean tight-against a face or it can mean tight-torqued like a thread. I think either you are interpreting the manual wrong or they use the ambiguous word "tight", when they should use "flush" or "torque".
@@kooldoozer Thank you for your comment, But I disagree with your statement about the cap adding preload to the bearings, total garbage, the outer races are a tight press fit into the quill and the bearings preload is achieved by tightening the bearings locking collar. I am speaking after 35 Years of experience as a Machine Tool Fitter and of servicing BP's especially the 1970's models with either the vari speed head or standard head. Wish there was some how to upload screenshots or pages from service manuals.
Thanks Dave, this is just the info I was after! I had my spindle nose come loose whilst machining and I’ve found out from this video where the grub screw is to retain it, and now thanks to you the correct way to refit this correctly. Cheers Rob
Well that took some of the fear out of something I have to do soon. Thanks
Thank you for the tutorial Mr Pete.
Content was very informative.
Stay healthy Sir.
Thanks
What a wonderful testament to the Bridgeport that it is so copied...glad to see yours up and running again. Thank, Mr. Pete! :-)
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Thanks for another enlightening video, I don't have a Bridgeport yet but hope to someday. Don't ever worry about giving more detail, it is all very useful.
Thanks
Excellent video, just what I was looking for
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Oh great. I paid a millwright to come to my home shop to replace the collect set screw and replace the brake shoes. My library didn’t have details on either topic. Thank you Mr Pete enjoying & learning on your videos during this tragedy
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Very nicely explained as always. Thank you...
Nice work, Mr. Pete. That was fun. Beware Bubba!
went to tour the Bridgeport plant while going through my machinist apprenticeship. they were cranking those units out like crazy as they were paid more the faster they worked. Terrific invention adaptable to almost every situation.
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I need to do the same to mine, its either missing or sheared off. Didn't know it was that easy. Adding to my long list of must do's
Thanks Mr Pete !
Another great video mrpete. You are very modest, we understand you are human. If you happen to drop something it is no disgrace. But your advice, using your extensive experience and knowledge carries you through task like this, even though you haven't done it before. And yes, Your explanations and camera positioning expanded the task, but we enjoyed the ride along.
Thanks 👍👍
Mrpete
I do a lot of repair on my own machines I also watch many videos for it, came across your video and had to comment. The nose cap is to have .006 gap using a feeler gage,
got that info off of H & W rebuilding video's. Great vid mrpete thanks.
My alignment pin was almost non existant when I took possession of my mill. And at some point the key that did exist removed itself from the equasion. I have used it for several years without it. I haven't had any problems so far. But I haven't put the collet under such a load that the interferance fit has been compromised. I had always thought that the key was just a convience holder for the collet while tightening and loosening til the fit takes hold. Thanks for the instruction. I may one day decide to repair it. I would have loved to have been under your instruction and had that opportunity in highschool. Our highschool had a couple old linclon buzz boxes a drill and rail road plates to learn how to weld on. And that was it. Thanks Mr. Pete.
Quite a few people have said that the key is not necessary
The key in my round ram Bridgeport was broken off flush when I got it. After watching this I went about fixing it. Mine was not a hex screw with a second locking screw but rather a long slotted set screw that was staked in place. It was 1/4-32 UNEF thread. It was long enough that I was able to put it in the lathe and cut a dog of the appropriate diameter on the end. I degreased everything and reinstalled it to the appropriate depth using blue Loctite. Thanks again Mr. Pete! My nose piece was not quite hand tight and had a very, very slight gap with the set screw in the dimple and I reinstalled it the same way. All seems good so far.
Oh, and I was able to tap the spindle down for easy access to the key as several people mentioned here.
Thanks That’s awesome
Excellent lesson! I greatly appreciate learning about the construction AND maintenance of Bridgeport type mills (Mine is a Wells Index 837 mill they imported from Taiwan in the ‘80’s. It’s big, old, but serves me well).
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Rudolph Bannow should have some type of industrial award if he doesn't already. It would be interesting to know if Bridgeport made mills for the war effort.
A Z - Bridgeport started producing milling machines in 1938, so most assuredly helped with the war effort. I own a 1942 Round Ram BP and sold it’s 1940 “sister” to a local guy last summer.
Nice quick repair. Well done.
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Always run into this problem, drive pin key butchered up. Never knew what was involved in repairing it. Good instructional tutorial video. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience....👍😊
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I believe the “key” is there only to remove the collet if the threads of the draw bar are sticky and the collet would just spin if not for the key. My spindle nose nut on my 1968 J-head was not tight either. H&W suggests turning the hollow screw back out and the dog point set screw forward and catch it. That way if the tip is distorted it will not harm the fine threads. As mentioned below, the spindle can be tapped down for better access.
My Bridgeport has the same problem and I have put off repairing it........... until now that is. Thanks for the inspiration Lyle, Gil
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Thanks for the vid!
At work and had my shell mill stop spinning while trying to cut. Turned out someone had tried to make a replacement some time ago....
I did find a new one to use.
Maybe have a wood block below everything as well as I did knock the spindle out of the quill while aligning the pin with a collet, I caught it so no damage.
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Lyle,
Replacing collet alignment setscrews was such a common problem in a production shop we made a modification to every machine quill. We removed the quill and machined a clearance hole so no disassembly was required and the set screws could be accessed without the need for a ball end hex wrench. Another problem is not all collet manufacturers machine the key slot to the same depth. If you take the trouble to set the depth correctly for your test collet, an operator is certain to unearth one that is shallower. If he is a Bubba, expect him to force the collet in requiring you to get it out for him and resetting the collet alignment key screw depth.
Bondhus makes stubby wrench sets. You don't need to make your own. The stubby sets have a tighter bend than a standard wrench that you modify. This tighter radius gives more working clearance than a modified wrench and allows the stub to be a bit shorter.
Bondhus also makes a stubby version with a ball on the short end of the wrench. This stub is angled a few degrees. This style offers a wrenching solution that is exceedingly seldom required.
You love vises and tap wrenches. You have many more than you need. I own every version of hex wrench made. When I couldn't find what I needed I made my own.
I have full sets of square end and ball end, metric and standard L wrenches, T handled, screwdriver handled, square drive short and long. Industrial machinery is most commonly assembled with socket head hex fasteners. The industrial repairman doesn't skimp on hex wrench versions.
Bondhus are the best value tool on the market. They are inexpensive and durable. A couple of the European folk make very fine L wrenches, but they are more costly.
I like my Snap-on sets, but their hex stock is softer than some. Some makers reduce or increase the hex stock shank to fit a common sized square drive for your ratchet. This encouurages breakage of stepped down or is oversized often down to the business end, making working clearance reductions. My smallest driver is .028". I don't believe anyone makes a ball driver that small! I was our only technician that ever required tools that small. I seldom required anything over 3/4" or 19MM.
GREAT VIDEO !!! AS ALWAYS JOE
Thanks
I'm going to join all of the others in the comments that need to do this. I bought my first Bridgeport a few months ago and the alignment pin is M.I.A. as well. I think some videos on minor maintenance might be popular. Although you're going to have a terrible time with internet experts. I'm sure these over critical, rude commenters prevent a lot of productive videos from being done because creators don't want to deal with them. Thanks for doing what you do. It's very helpful for me.
Thank you very much. Yes, because of the critics, there are some videos I wish I had never made.
wow, so many have been waiting for this video and didn't even know it, including me.
I was thinking more about this video.. So many people say i am to busy.. This is and example of that. If you take the time to examine your life such as this problem and fix it.. You will free up hundreds of hours a year. Speed does not come from working harder, its comes from fixing problems that slow you down. This is the perfect time for those that say there to busy, to fix it all.
Very very true thank you
Nice, I enjoyed that.
Seeing this I fixed my Jet knee mill, key was there but backed off. I have owned machine four years with out having key working. Thanks Mr Pete !! P.S. nose piece on Jet has left hand threads
Thanks
Just came across your video and thought it was both entertaining and straightforward, good job. Haven't had to attack this yet but looks pretty simple. I own a 1940's BP round ram with a 32" table that is in great condition and just love it. Powered it off a VFD (I don't have 3 ph.) I don't ever have to change belts or gears and adapted an Accurite to fit it. Modernized but a piece of history still going strong. Also, I wish I could post a picture, but my son gave me for Christmas one year, a poster size print on canvas, dated 1942, filed 1939, of US Patent Office print of Universal Machine Tool, showing the round ram mill and it's configurations and drawings for the original patent, signed by Rudolph Bannow and his attorney. I have it framed and hanging proudly in my shop. Pretty cool. Everyone always asks about this when they see it. Thought I'd share that since you posted the history of this incredible invention. Thanks again.
Thank you, I bet that is a beautiful picture. I’d rather have that on my wall than the Mona Lisa.
Thanks Mr Pete, now more than ever!
Yes
Nice video. Thanks mr pete
Great job.
What a coincidence Barry from H&W repair posted a video on there RUclips channel Friday covering this very subject. I bought my Bridgeport mill used and never knew there was supposed to be a key way screw in the spindle. I saw another video about them and went to H&W to get new belts that it needed and got the screw and lock screw along with the belts. They gave me an instruction sheet on how to change them the replacement screw is round on the end not with flats like yours. When you put the nose piece back on if the dimple for the set screw lines up and it's not tight remove it and restart the threads until it lines up tightly. By the way I learned how to change the belts from the video you posted on how to do the job that's how I found your channel. I remember at the end of that one you said too make sure and retram the head because you had shown to lay it over 90 degrees to make it easier. I was clueless about milling machines and searched RUclips how to tram a milling machine head and there you were with another video. I have been a subscriber ever since that was 2007 or 2008
Thank you for watching. Yes it was quite a coincidence that HNW put that video on at the same time as mine. I actually filmed mine two weeks ago. And how many viewers are saying you don’t even need to use that setscrew throw it away?
Well Done!!
Mine is worn down to a nub, I have an R8 Spindle on an old Taiwanese
round column mill/drill.
I am going to try to disassemble it in the same fashion and hopefully I’ll be able to change it similarly.
A Bridgeport is a dream machine of mine.
Great video!
Stay safe!!
Thanks
I enjoyed this video, and I know all to well about those tiny little screws. How about a new video on making one of those little nifty hand vises.
I have to perform this repair on an old Bridgeport I acquired recently, and was unsure how to go about it. Mine is also from the early 60's. Thank you for the video, very helpful as always!
Read the other comments to see how to overcome the need for ball end & short allen key (wrench)
@@stevewilliams587 I ended up watching another video by H&W Machine that showed that method, looks straightforward. Thanks!
Thanks for sharing that.
I did the same, and the nose piece wasn't tight, and I returned it to the same position. Been about five years since I did it, all still good.
It was good that you took care to go slow and explain what was needed and how to take it apart. Too often steps are omitted or glossed over assuming others know what is going on. I seldom do. Not sure about my MSC mill but would assume it is very similar. Now I know one more repair opreation should I have problems with the R8. By the way I just spent about 2 hours traming my mill. I have one of thoes double dial indicators which helped a lot, but it still was a pain. I would rather join you on the ship with salt water as well.
Thank you, they can flog us together
Reading the other comments it occurs to me that the key is there to overcome any friction in the draw bar (damaged thread or dirt) whilst pulling in the collet.
H&W reccomends to screw the inner set screw in since the working end is probably damaged. I think its 1/4-28 thread. Also it is NZoT a key. It sole purpose is to allow you to remove the 7/16 draw rod and collet if the threads become tight. Live a little, buy the right parts and stay home during the next tool auction.
The key is not there to hold the collet, but there to hold while the drawbar is pulling it into an interference fit. It will snap off if you have torque applied to a non tight collet, as a safety feature. The more modern one might be made as a version with a nylon insert integrated into it, or as one with a deformed thread, so it is self locking, or they just used a drop of thread locker in assembly. The lock screw definitely is an attempt to fix the original coming loose, but a bit of locking compound would work better.
the double grub screw arrangement is actually quite common on the Bridgeport, and appears three other places in the machine.
It is equivalent to a locknut on a bolt, and ensures both that the dogpoint does not get too loose and also does not accidentally vibrate into too tight a position.
Bridgeport applies a thread locking compound to the locking screw. I use blue Locktite if I reuse this screw.
Thanks for another great video. Had to go back and find the first showing of the Bridgeport history the one at the end is covered by the end screen.
I will try to fix that
Me Too. The first showing is at 12:32.
@@mrpete222 not a big deal like Larry says it is at 12:32.
Thank you!
Hi Mr. Pete. .... don't own any kind of machinery, but I enjoy watching anyway. I also wanted to complement you on the quality of your filming - very well done! Take care and as always, have a happy day!
Thank you very much
Fascinating.
Lyle, nice video -- good maintenance tips. Now I need to go check my "import" mill-drill to see what kind of pin or key it uses to prevent the R-8 collets from spinning.
Thanks for the detail. I have exactly the same problem on mine and was going to follow the HW steps but your ball hex key use and trimmed key is way simpler.
Thanks
you do a fine job wish you were my shop teacher
Thanks
This will be good to know in case I ever get a place to put a mill and can find one that is affordable and usable! Used a foreign made knock off where I retired from for years. Really miss being able to do things with a mill.
Excellent
I am not a “punch and hammer man” like Bubba, but I have resorted to using a large pair of Channelock pliers and a rag to remove the nosepiece. Maybe I am just as bad as Bubba. I have made my own screws by machining a dog point on the end of a set screw. Thanks for making the video. Stay healthy.
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The hollow locking set screws were common in older machine tools long before chemical locking compounds were invented. Mcmaster Carr and perhaps others still stock them in a wide range of sizes.
When I was a Toolmaker apprentice many years ago I read their catalog cover to cover just to see what was available. And recommend anyone with interest in the trades do the same. That is before the hard copy catalog goes extinct. Lol
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THANK YOU MR PEET.................
I got in my extra credit time, thanks!
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Wow Mr. Pete! The key in my Bridgeport appears to be broken off flush. It's been that way since I got it. Now I will fix it. Thanks so much for showing this.
Mine is either broken or missing...
Key is essential for tightening and, if you are like me and use oversize diameter tooling, it likely assists to prevent collet spin.
Large shell mills and fly cutters are the biggest cause of keys to shear. Sometimes a large end mill will grab, spin the R8 holder and shear the key.
Berry at H&W just posted a video for the same procedure. BUT he used the draw bar to drive the spindle down about 2 inches to have access to the set screws. Upon completion of the screw installation, he used a soft mallet to drive the spindle back into place, and finished the job.
I will have to watch that
I used to have to leave mine loose. Like others have said. Cause some collects wouldn't fit right,so I'd rotate 1/2 turn out. This was a pita. Then I read somewhere online that you really don't need it . I tried it and love it. Using it this way for about 6 years no problems at all.
Maybe I should take the key out and throw it away
@@mrpete222 yes I removed it completely. But I saved it. In fact they removed them it the 4 mills we have at work.
@12:02; that hand vise looks to be- handee indeed, I'll bet if it were a Peterson Products item, most boys would probably still have theirs to this day. And that brings up another point- no you can't make videos too long and boring, not when you show us little hidden gems like that vise, so keep 'em coming. ☺
Thanks
Cheers!
Some of the import milling machines have left-hand threads on the noise. I made a dedicated spanner wrench at work and engraved left-hand threads on it.
Thanks
The old Gorton milling machines my family use to have in our shop, the retaining nut was left hand. It was marked with the letters "LH" clearly on the nut, so Bubba would not mess it up getting one off.
Yes, my imported milling head has a LH thread on the spindle nose cap.
As previously mentioned I changed one on a Bridgeport at Midlands Technical College. Yes, the little suckers are expensive. I stand corrected, the collar is used for bearing retention.