I've been in the business a long time. Turned on my first machine at the age of seven. Consistent machine accuracy is one of the most under discussed topics in Machining ever. And I've been through 3 years of high school machine shop, 2 years of college machine shop and 13 months of trade school. And not one teacher ever addressed the subject. But my father, who was the tool and die maker for General Electric for over 40 years taught me one thing. Get to know the machine, to know how accurate it is and you will get consistent parts. EXTREAMLY WELL DONE
I'm so glad you made this video! I could sit and watch you eat lunch, and still learn something. The last couple of videos, about the selling of tools because of a dirt nap, were supper depressing., I know how tiring it is to make something in the shop. I can only imagine the time it takes to video, edit, and send out the videos. I would learn a great deal just getting lessons on any machine subject, even without seeing the chips fly! I pray you keep the positive attitude, and continue to produce videos.
You should try that out, just make a video of you eating lunch. Maybe go into detail of what you're eating and how you're eating it. I'm sure most of your viewers would get quite a kick out of it.
@@mrpete222 I too enjoy watching your videos. ( The lunch thing, I'm not so sure about. LOL ) I am sure that I could have learned a hell of alot more in shop if you would have been my teacher. Not that the one I had was bad. I just had a hard time learning from him. As far as your junk as you put it, go read your coffee cup. That's how I feel about tools. LOL
I studied metrology for a few years and the most important thing I learned is that every sensor or measurement devise is sensing or measuring itself. As for digital measuring devices, the accuracy of ALL of them is base accuracy ( say 1%) plus or minus LAST DIGIT. Where a human operator can distinguish whether the marks on Vernier scale align or not, digital device can not. One can observe this effect when digital device is positioned just so the last digit flicker between two adjacent values. The last digit on a DRO or a caliper is 0.0005 (not 0.0001). If DRO shows 1.000. The real value is somewhere between 1.0005 and 0.9995.
Thank you Mr. Pete. It's great to see you bring up this subject since I worked in metrology lab at a helicopter factory. I did notice that you did not mention the temperature which would effect the readings. However, if all the instruments used were soaking at the same temperature for a while I'm assuming they were and they should not be too far off. The big issue we would run into to is, people never liked to send their tools in for calibration. Every instrument would have a cycle time of a calibrated window of time and things do drift in time. We would often say it's close enough for government work. The definition kind of goes like this. If you can measure with a micrometer marker with a piece of chalk, then you can cut it with a hatchet. Have great day and keep those videos coming since we are getting that storm tonight through tomorrow.
I like your comment on temperature. Most machine shops and machines are cold at the start of the shift. Then allot warmer at the end but the components still seem to fit. Is it because we humans still have to manually check the finished size.
Nice setup. The flex in that 1/2" bar under the load it sees here from the caliper is going to be less than the resolution of any of the readouts. The dial indicator has a tolerance that is pretty lax once you get past the first 2-1/2 revs, probably 0.002". I tend to agree the DRO is likely the most accurate, but it looks as if all match within tolerance. As to the name of the caliper, I used to work with a "machinist" who called every caliper, even a simple 1/32" pocket caliper, a "vernier". I used, and still use, vernier calipers for many things, so always had one handy. Every time he got into a spot where he needed someone to get a tool for him-- a habit due to his poor set-up practice-- the first tool he usually needed was a caliper. "Hey! Grab me a vernier!" Knowing full well he wanted a dial caliper or the shop's digimatic, I'd hand him my vernier just to hear him scream "Not that! The vernier! The dial vernier!".
Much better on the scientific method this time around Mr. Pete! No swapping out variables in the tests, stuck with all the same setup, great job. I would like to see you check out that Dial Indicator on the surface plate with gauge blocks, I question it's accuracy or that of everything else and that does not seem logical. Check it out for us. Loved the video.
The timing of this video is spot on. I hit the lottery last week for a moderate amount. Missed the 55 million by one number. Anyway I and have been searching for a Bridgeport Mill and a South Bend Heavy Ten ever since. I found 3 mills. One is in a trade school and the others in a university. One is a Series II with all the bells and whistles and can do CNC. The other two are Series I Mills. One has a DRO and one is without. I think the Series II will be too large for my shop so my choice will go to the one with the DRO if it is good condition. Great job and Thank you for all you do. Of all the videos I watch you and Old Tony are My mainstays.
Greatly enjoy all your videos ! Mr.Pete222 reminds me with his teaching method of my old Ag. Mechanics teacher back in the late 1970's into the early 80's. If caught acting up it was common , aswell as expected that he would grab the nearest board,shears..welding gloves..whatever was within his reach and give the violator a good wack. And no it wasnt abuse..it was called giving a damn. Thank you Mr.Pete222.
Thanks for bringing me back once again, Mr. Pete. The Bridgeport is my favorite machine. P.S, Good luck with the storm, it should be hitting here in Long Island, NY tonight.
@@mrpete222 Great! It looks like we're getting rain, but a lot of it. Possibly an ice storm. They are SO beautiful but dangerous. It;s nice Being retired so I can just admire it instead of working in it! :) I've been delivering bread the last 27 years :(
I want to thank you for all your time teaching. I just bought a 13x40 doall /Romi lathe still have to order vfd. I am a visual learner dont like books and in Alaska no shop class and machine shops close as fast as they open here I've worked at aircraft and engine shops no lathe work other than polishing some push rod tubes for Lycoming engines. So with your shop teaching I now feel not so much in the dark with the grizzlies hahahaha or Sasquatch. SO THANKS FOR YOUR TIME TEACH this is 1 guy that is using what you teach. THANKS FROM THE SASQUATCH FIGHTER OF THE NORTH
I suspect a slight angular missalignment of the dial indicator too, but nonetheless the readings are still within spec of the dti. Mitutoyo gives .001" over the first 2,5 turns and .003" overall as accuracy for the 2424. Always a good idea to check the aacuracy specs of test equipment manufacturers, just to get an idea how precise a tool will be ;)
I also think it's cosine error plus the tolerances of the devices under test. A 0.06° (3.6 arc minutes) error already would create the observed difference.
Great video! I really enjoyed this video with my coffee. I laughed when you said "Of course to understand or else you wouldn't be watching this video" thank you sir!
I wonder how many people lose sleep over this stuff? It can drive you crazy if you let it. Thanks Mr Pete, you are such a blessing!!! How's your brother?
Very good video, the only fault I can find is you suggesting that no one is interested. I praise God for you and your work to make machinists out of each of us. If I had to be limited to 1 you tube presenter I would be wise to make it you. God's Blessing to you
Randy TenBrink you are correct, the only source of significant error with Vernier scale is introduced by the operator. I use 10x magnifying loupe to reduce that error. The main disadvantage of it is that is slow for modern production.
My favorite calipers are the vernier set I inherited from my father in law. However, as I have gotten older they now require an ancillary tool in the way of 3x readers to use them. In a weak moment at Harbor Freight I bought a digital set with the 25% discount they sent me. Checked them against my Jo blocs and they seem to be constantly within half a thou. But still as a home gamer there is something missing when I use them. Now where are those blame readers?
I see any earthly measurement as a probability cloud. There are ALWAYS error bars and in some situations the crude measurement can actually be more useful then a precise measurement because the tool does something unique.
I really enjoy the foundation of fundamentals I learn from you. Joe P from Texas, his videos really teach me complex problems I hadn’t thought of or encountered yet. Adam Booth really shows the skills in progress making and repairing parts. Tom Lipton really shows me crazy accuracies I never really thought were obtainable. I just really enjoy the machining community on RUclips. Thanks for all you do.
𝖘 𝖍 𝖎 𝖗 𝖔 absolutely actually after writing that comment I sort of felt bad about throwing him in as well. He goes into measuring like I can’t hardly comprehend. Thanks
@@Ross_Dugan I learn a lot too from these youtube shop teachers. I'm in college now and I have access to the machine shop where I can try out all kinds of measuring and machining I see here on youtube, learning lots in the process. Everything from manual mill and lathe to cnc I've been able to learn on and I love it. They don't really teach these things in my school, they just have the machines. I study industrial design and these techniques I learnt are very valuable for me to produce good prototypes.
Accuracy is a composit of reading, repeatability, resolution, standards, reference point, and money. Then there are such factors as paralax, temperature, technique, attitude, phase of the moon, and how much accuracy do you really need. As the military slogan says, "Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax, file it to fit, and then paint it to match."About that dirt nap, put it off for a while, procrastinate, no big hurry is there?
I used to work in an academic setting with very educated people. It was always a challenge to explain to these folks why something they made did not fit together or function as they intended because of errors based on assumptions they made concerning measuring instruments and scales on machine tools. Of course, there were always questions as to how well they could perform basic shop operations, but most of their problems had to do with layout, cumulative measurement error and indifference to the limits of the tools they were using. I think these kinds of videos are very valuable. They may not get lots of initial views, but they well help people over time become better machinists. Thanks Mr. Pete!
I am going to make more of them, but I am always disappointed in the small number of views. If I had my kitten playing with a ball of yarn it would go viral
I think your comment is correct but that it perhaps can generally be made about most of the population. It is true that people can be very indifferent to the skills involved in especially precision fabrication. I must say, however, that in my years working in universities and research labs I did come across folks who were very good at mechanical and electronic design and fabrication. Yes, they were the exception.
today I was picking up my Index mill and the former owner and I wee chatting. Our 35 yr age difference disappeared when you came up in our conversation. we all love you and not the youtube shop teacher, your Americas shop teacher....
What if you checked the digital Caliper with a 2.000 gage block? Would not the caliper blades which are hardened be a good location to try the gage block? The gage block would be the standard for the other methods.
You are a persistant and brilliant person,i have discovered your channel and i m enjoying alot,hanks Mr Pete for you lessons.From Portugal José Braga,thanks again.
Sir, even the standard of an inch had change all these years. As i remember, during the 70`s there is a major change and recently, i believe it is last year, scientists redefined the method of measuring using some sort of electric conductivity to avoid the oxidation of the length standard guage block locate in paris. Your mill is made in 50`s, the mititoyo may be a 70`s product? Your shars and b&l would be a 10`s or after? Event if they are all unuse new, it still won't match. Because they are all base on different standard. Put it simple, your inch is not my inch and my grandfather disagree with both of us.
well the kilogram is defined by a ball of silicon (or its in the works) of a specific number of atoms, based on its crystal structure, so its actually a MECHANICAL standard now. IIRC they measure the ball of silicons dimensions with lasers and get excellent sphericity, so they know if its this wide then it has to have this number of silicon atoms hence mass. They have reworked alot of measurements this year too, I think the volt, amper, etc changed by like 0.001 ppm too.... In the end nothing will stay constant IMO.
they will try to base everything off the speed of light and time if they can, since those are the two most precise things. The voltage standard is actually a frequency (time) to voltage converter, called a joseph junction.
there is a slight twist though, with mechanical objects surface finish/contact is actually kind of a standard (hence the value of the gauge block), you would need to do a 3d scan of the surface otherwise, and it does not account for how it deforms practically (i.e. slight porosity in the material), the gauge block is set at SOME kind of tension/compression so its more 'real' then a laser bouncing off of something.
I won't bother to look it up but I doubt the length of the inch was "redefined" in the 70's. What probably changed was how that length was defined. We are probably talking about standards well below a millionth of an inch and so has no practical effect in Mr. Pete's basement when the limits of your readouts are a half thousandth.
I really liked it. I did the same thing except for the digital caliper when i mounted my DRO and got about a.001 difference . Glad to know I did it like Mr. Pete. Thanks for the video and your never boring to me always learn something. Watching in Alabama
First, Thank you very much for all you’ve done and continue to do to educate and enlighten, *most sincerely.* .....I personally love all things detailed and high precision oriented, milling, grinding etc.....I’ve watched multiple dozens of refurbishing videos on various channels restoring older vintage machinery, but very few offer detailed troubleshooting, tracking, and tramming accuracy videos on those machines.
One of your best videos. One could go on for ever about this. We have a much wider array to choose from then when we were younger. What surprised me the most was the mitutoyo indicator. It would be interesting to see this done with a gauge block or two. Thanks again mr. Pete.
@@michaelcoceski5442 Yes. Of course. As a Brit I am. amusingly quite a few young people continue to think Imperial. (I am NOT a 'young people' by any stretch of the imagination.)
I’m with you, imperial works fine. If some genius figured out a new and better way to count hours and minutes, why should we change, what we have works fine.
Great job Mr Pete... I always enjoy your videos. This one really helped to drive home the variations between different gauges in the tool box. It also helped me see that when I'm building a project, to use the same one gauge to complete that project for consistency. Having multiple gauges, I can see myself grabbing a different gauge in haste and introducing additional error into a part.
Mr. Pete I enjoyed the video. I rebuild machinery for a living and one of the ways we calibrate scales on a rebuilt machine is to utilize long gage blocks, we have a set up to 20" blocks. Wring a small, say .200 block on one end and rotate it perp to the long block, so it sticks off the side like a little ledge or tail. Place the long block flat on the table wide side down and make sure the wrung block on the end is not touching the table but securely wrung to the end of the long block sticking straight up. You can then put a test indicator in the spindle, .0001 reading preferable and try to avoid indicols they introduce a lot of hysteresis. Now lower the quill and touch off the end of the long gage block and zero your readout. Then raise the quill just enough to clear the long gage block and crank the table to the other end and touch the indicator stylus to the wrung on ledge which is sticking up and crank the table in to zero the indicator and compare it to the readout. It should be noted you would want to first dial in the side of the block parallel to the axis you are checking to avoid cosine errors. Also when you zero the indicator off the first side of the block, I merely apply drag to the quill lock so it holds z position but I can still move it, you dont want to be loosening and tightening the lock as this deflects the quill. And using the knee will most likely cause yawing of the whole setup, so it is best locked and left locked. On a knee style mill as you move the table from left to right it moves on an arc, even a new machine, this is due to the weight shifting back and forth causing the saddle and knee dovetails to "squish" ever so slightly any running clearance in the dovetails. You will see this by placing a precision level on the table and moving it back and forth. Now on a 50 year old machine like yours it's highly likely the table is peened, in other words its crowned in the middle, this is caused by many years of things being dropped on the table top and also tightening T nuts, this yields the cast iron on the tables surface and causes the surface of the table to compress which elongates only the top layer of the table, and if you know how a bi-metal spring in a thermometer works then it will be obvious to see how this will effectively curve the table over its length. From my experience in rebuilding a machine of that age would probably be .003-.007 high in the middle, just a guess. You could check this with a long straight edge and feeler gauges. We have a saying in machine tool rebuilding, Gravity is always on, and everything's made of rubber. Cheers!
Yeah, there's an old book called "Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy", or something like that, about the construction of very accurate machines. Yeah, it's heavy stuff...
I wish there was a way to capture all the great comments you generated in here and put them in an ebook. Love this topic and it is real important to me. Thank you
The saying goes "A man with one watch always knows what time it is, a man with two is never sure". Apparently, that also applies to measuring. Thank for the video. I found it to be very interesting. I would think Gage blocks and vernier scales thrown into the mix would be a logical step forward.
Great video Mr. Pete! The saga continues. I just went back and watched machine shop tips #56 Hole Layout. At that time in 2011 the DRO was off .002 and the optical center punch was off .001 . These are very interesting videos. Thanks!
Great video. This was extremely interesting. I'll have to try this idea with my old Atlas table top milling machine. Thanks for sharing this great idea. EDIT - I'm really shocked about the dial indicator being off so much.
ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC! Even in my own shop I have detected differences with measurements. Thank goodness I only have to only occasionally work with 10ths. Great stuff Mr. Pete!!!
Great video Lyle... That's one of the things that my father taught me at the ripe old age of seven is how to read a Vernier caliper and to this day I still feel like I got to count on my fingers and toes so glad for the digital and even the dial accuracies of the day thank you for all you do keep up the great videos
Interesting video. Enjoyed it a lot. Surprised at how accurate those old screws in the Bridgeport are. Vote for follow up video, love to see the gauge blocks “ in action”.
Thanks Mr. Pete, I did a similar test after I installed my dro on my old bridgie. Not quite as involved, but I had about the same result between my dial on the handle, the dro, and a good dial indicator. I would tend to trust the dro more, but as it is still new to me I second guess it a lot. Anyhow, thanks again and thumbs up for sure
Very interesting Mr. Pete. Thanks. Gary 75-year-old Home-Shop-Machinist in North West Arkansas. Get in touch next time you come to Grizzly and I will meet you up there.
Mr Pete, very much enjoyed the video. Now I’m more confused than ever! It makes my head hurt. Korean proverb: Pain makes man think. Thinking makes man wise. Wisdom makes life endurable.
This was very interesting. Carpenter crews I worked on over the years would check our tape measures against each other in an attempt to reduce error when cutting. I know our tolerances weren't as precise as yours bit in some case one tape measure against the other could be off as much as 1/16 of an inch in two feet. Great video Mr. Pete
20 years ago I mounted a new DRO on my mill. One of the final tests was to calibrate the installation with as long a gage block as available. The basic principle was to mount the gage block perpendicular to an axis, square it and get the length using the DRO. The measurement was entered into the DRO and was used in some correction calculation. What was interesting was comparing the measurements between a cold and hot shop. Very visible on a 12" gage block.
I really enjoyed this and theres a lot of learning value in the exercise itself, shows a lot of what one can expect from the different methods of measurement. Thanks again for sharing your years of experience mr. Pete.
Thanks Lyle, If you do a follow up video it may be interesting to "profile" the error between the DRO and your leadscrew. I did this when I first installed my DRO. Make a simple chart with one entry per inch from left limit to right limit. Turn the lead screw an inch and record the DRO reading. A worn screw may lag (DRO showing less movement) as you approach the "worn" center then catch up as you continue to less worn section. Profiling a screw is a common practice in CNC machines where the machine can keep a map of screw error and adjust for non linear sections of the screw. A gauge block stack and a test indicator would also be interesting. Square and clamp a block on the table or vice then zero the indicator. As you move each inch add another inch of blocks and test the zero reading.
Good ideas thanks for the comment. I don't know about that profile I don't think I would know how to do that. But tomorrow's video will show me checking the indicator. With Gage blocks.
As I've said before, the critics can go pound sand. As a new owner (of a 1978 model Bridgeport) these video's are invaluable to me. Just as your lathe video's were when I got my first one. Please keep this up!
I like it so far as you took it. I know you don't like to be boring but boring is good. Do it 10 times and then average all the readings. We just know that that old mill is wore some but I strongly suspect that the dial indicator is as well. I've always considered my dial indicators the last word. Now I'm not so sure.. You are the Man!
Dial indicators...I would guess that if there is a measurable wear, it would be on the first bit of movement, since that's where we like to set them up..?
Very much enjoyed - I fought with my machine dials very hard when trying to work to less than .001 and took me a lot of work and set up to work around that at the time!
![Bridgebort Milling Machine [Rescue]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/zGv7MkdIP_w/mqdefault.jpg)
Old Chinese proverb: "Man with one watch knows what time it is. Man with two is never quite sure".
try getting into precision electrical clocks lol.
man with a GPS satellite disciplined atomic clock still is not sure.
Muy interesantes palabras senor!
I had never heard that Proberb. I love it
@@mrpete222 Another is: "Put a pebble in your shoe and you'll forget about the troubles of the world."
yes, no and somewhere in between
great video as always Mr Pete. enjoyed!
Thanks
This Old Tony maybe you should of lent Mr. Pete your Mitutoyo Diamond 522-602 calipers for this test.
I've been in the business a long time. Turned on my first machine at the age of seven. Consistent machine accuracy is one of the most under discussed topics in Machining ever. And I've been through 3 years of high school machine shop, 2 years of college machine shop and 13 months of trade school. And not one teacher ever addressed the subject. But my father, who was the tool and die maker for General Electric for over 40 years taught me one thing. Get to know the machine, to know how accurate it is and you will get consistent parts. EXTREAMLY WELL DONE
Thank you, and that was great advice from your father
I'm so glad you made this video! I could sit and watch you eat lunch, and still learn something. The last couple of videos, about the selling of tools because of a dirt nap, were supper depressing., I know how tiring it is to make something in the shop. I can only imagine the time it takes to video, edit, and send out the videos. I would learn a great deal just getting lessons on any machine subject, even without seeing the chips fly! I pray you keep the positive attitude, and continue to produce videos.
Thank you, I am not quitting yet. Just getting rid of some of my junk. And you would not want to watch me eat lunch, LOL
You should try that out, just make a video of you eating lunch. Maybe go into detail of what you're eating and how you're eating it. I'm sure most of your viewers would get quite a kick out of it.
@@mrpete222 I too enjoy watching your videos. ( The lunch thing, I'm not so sure about. LOL ) I am sure that I could have learned a hell of alot more in shop if you would have been my teacher. Not that the one I had was bad. I just had a hard time learning from him. As far as your junk as you put it, go read your coffee cup. That's how I feel about tools. LOL
Haha, how to make a pb'n'j on a lathe
And show your wife making the lunch...even if you do most of the work...!@@theonlyalan731
Don't worry about the "critics". You do what you do best...that is instruct!!!! Can't get enough of your very instructional videos!!!
Thank you very very much
WATCHED IT TWICE!
ABOUT 2 YEARS APART!
You've taught me a lot!
"I never liked vernier scales. They were and are a nightmare" Thank you! I'm not the only one!
👍
That Vernier guy was either a genius or a sadist. I don’t know which!
At 64 years old, I enjoy listening to you and still learning. Thank you and God Bless you.
I studied metrology for a few years and the most important thing I learned is that every sensor or measurement devise is sensing or measuring itself.
As for digital measuring devices, the accuracy of ALL of them is base accuracy ( say 1%) plus or minus LAST DIGIT.
Where a human operator can distinguish whether the marks on Vernier scale align or not, digital device can not. One can observe this effect when digital device is positioned just so the last digit flicker between two adjacent values.
The last digit on a DRO or a caliper is 0.0005 (not 0.0001).
If DRO shows 1.000. The real value is somewhere between 1.0005 and 0.9995.
That was so clear, I could understand every word. That was witty enough to stay with it. I aspire to communicate like MrPete.
Thank you very much
Dont kid yourself. It's very important to record these things for future machinists! Get em thinking!!! Very nice, thanks!
Thanks
Excellent I loved it. The old saying is " If you can't measure you can't build. " Look forward to more explorations .
Yes
Thank you Mr. Pete. It's great to see you bring up this subject since I worked in metrology lab at a helicopter factory. I did notice that you did not mention the temperature which would effect the readings. However, if all the instruments used were soaking at the same temperature for a while I'm assuming they were and they should not be too far off. The big issue we would run into to is, people never liked to send their tools in for calibration. Every instrument would have a cycle time of a calibrated window of time and things do drift in time. We would often say it's close enough for government work. The definition kind of goes like this. If you can measure with a micrometer marker with a piece of chalk, then you can cut it with a hatchet. Have great day and keep those videos coming since we are getting that storm tonight through tomorrow.
Everything had been in the basement shop at about 68° four months
I like your comment on temperature. Most machine shops and machines are cold at the start of the shift. Then allot warmer at the end but the components still seem to fit. Is it because we humans still have to manually check the finished size.
Those of us that watch a lot of Mr. Pete already know his shop is at 68
Now that was great! It demonstrated how a person has to accept some error and learn how to deal with and minimize error. Thumbs up.
Thanks
Nice setup. The flex in that 1/2" bar under the load it sees here from the caliper is going to be less than the resolution of any of the readouts. The dial indicator has a tolerance that is pretty lax once you get past the first 2-1/2 revs, probably 0.002". I tend to agree the DRO is likely the most accurate, but it looks as if all match within tolerance. As to the name of the caliper, I used to work with a "machinist" who called every caliper, even a simple 1/32" pocket caliper, a "vernier". I used, and still use, vernier calipers for many things, so always had one handy. Every time he got into a spot where he needed someone to get a tool for him-- a habit due to his poor set-up practice-- the first tool he usually needed was a caliper. "Hey! Grab me a vernier!" Knowing full well he wanted a dial caliper or the shop's digimatic, I'd hand him my vernier just to hear him scream "Not that! The vernier! The dial vernier!".
That is funny, I am grinning
As someone who works part time as a machinist in a local fabrication shop, I found this video very enlightening and useful. Thanks much for posting!
👍
Much better on the scientific method this time around Mr. Pete! No swapping out variables in the tests, stuck with all the same setup, great job. I would like to see you check out that Dial Indicator on the surface plate with gauge blocks, I question it's accuracy or that of everything else and that does not seem logical. Check it out for us. Loved the video.
You know what,? I think you just came up with a good topic for a video
Always enjoy shop class with Jimmy Stewart!!!!
I enjoyed every minute watching very interesting Mr Pete.
Thanks
The timing of this video is spot on. I hit the lottery last
week for a moderate amount. Missed the 55 million by one number. Anyway I and have been searching for a
Bridgeport Mill and a South Bend Heavy Ten ever since. I found 3 mills. One is in
a trade school and the others in a university. One is a Series II with all the
bells and whistles and can do CNC. The other two are Series I Mills. One has a DRO and one is without. I think the
Series II will be too large for my shop so my choice will go to the one with the DRO if it is good condition. Great
job and Thank you for all you do. Of all the videos I watch you and Old Tony
are My mainstays.
Thank you very much good luck with that new machine
Morning coffee with another new vid and giveaway nothing better 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻☕️☕️☕️
Thanks
Greatly enjoy all your videos ! Mr.Pete222 reminds me with his teaching method of my old Ag. Mechanics teacher back in the late 1970's into the early 80's. If caught acting up it was common , aswell as expected that he would grab the nearest board,shears..welding gloves..whatever was within his reach and give the violator a good wack. And no it wasnt abuse..it was called giving a damn.
Thank you Mr.Pete222.
👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
Thanks for bringing me back once again, Mr. Pete. The Bridgeport is my favorite machine.
P.S, Good luck with the storm, it should be hitting here in Long Island, NY tonight.
Luckily, we only have 1 inch this morning. I think Chicago will get a lot more
@@mrpete222 Great! It looks like we're getting rain, but a lot of it. Possibly an ice storm. They are SO beautiful but dangerous. It;s nice Being retired so I can just admire it instead of working in it! :) I've been delivering bread the last 27 years :(
I want to thank you for all your time teaching. I just bought a 13x40 doall /Romi lathe still have to order vfd. I am a visual learner dont like books and in Alaska no shop class and machine shops close as fast as they open here I've worked at aircraft and engine shops no lathe work other than polishing some push rod tubes for Lycoming engines. So with your shop teaching I now feel not so much in the dark with the grizzlies hahahaha or Sasquatch. SO THANKS FOR YOUR TIME TEACH this is 1 guy that is using what you teach. THANKS FROM THE SASQUATCH FIGHTER OF THE NORTH
Very informative, could there be some cosine angle error in the dial indicator set up? Thanks for all the great content.
Good point. Maybe use gauge blocks to verify the accuracy of the dial indicator.
I suspect a slight angular missalignment of the dial indicator too, but nonetheless the readings are still within spec of the dti. Mitutoyo gives .001" over the first 2,5 turns and .003" overall as accuracy for the 2424. Always a good idea to check the aacuracy specs of test equipment manufacturers, just to get an idea how precise a tool will be ;)
I also think it's cosine error plus the tolerances of the devices under test. A 0.06° (3.6 arc minutes) error already would create the observed difference.
The first thing that occurred to me was cosine error if the dial indicator isn't in perfect parallel alignment with the axis of travel.
I considered that, and had even thought about putting an indicator on the beam of the calipers, but I have to quit at some point
Great video! I really enjoyed this video with my coffee. I laughed when you said "Of course to understand or else you wouldn't be watching this video" thank you sir!
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I wonder how many people lose sleep over this stuff? It can drive you crazy if you let it. Thanks Mr Pete, you are such a blessing!!! How's your brother?
Thanks. He's doing better, but pretty much paralyzed on one side
Mark Tracy
Robenz, Matthias, clickspring. Ox tools, barz
Very good video, the only fault I can find is you suggesting that no one is interested.
I praise God for you and your work to make machinists out of each of us. If I had to be limited to 1 you tube presenter I would be wise to make it you. God's Blessing to you
And God bless you in Jesus name
Vernier scale may be obsolete, however, it is still very, VERY accurate if you are capable of reading the scale!
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Randy TenBrink you are correct, the only source of significant error with Vernier scale is introduced by the operator. I use 10x magnifying loupe to reduce that error.
The main disadvantage of it is that is slow for modern production.
@@rok1475 indeed slow but once you see your mark, you know your measurement almost like mathematical perfection!
My favorite calipers are the vernier set I inherited from my father in law. However, as I have gotten older they now require an ancillary tool in the way of 3x readers to use them. In a weak moment at Harbor Freight I bought a digital set with the 25% discount they sent me. Checked them against my Jo blocs and they seem to be constantly within half a thou. But still as a home gamer there is something missing when I use them. Now where are those blame readers?
I have watched nearly all of your videos, have not watched one yet that I did not enjoy. Keep up the great videos. Thanks from Wales.
Thank you very much, say hello to Tom Jones
Funny enough, I live in Pontypridd, where Tom Jones was born.
Great video. I think sometimes we over estimate accuracy and it's good to get grounded in the limits of our tools.
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I see any earthly measurement as a probability cloud. There are ALWAYS error bars and in some situations the crude measurement can actually be more useful then a precise measurement because the tool does something unique.
Yeah...tenth of a Thou...nothing like splitting hairs...30 times...
in the end: thrown out after 100 hours use because the factory shut down :(
I really enjoy the foundation of fundamentals I learn from you. Joe P from Texas, his videos really teach me complex problems I hadn’t thought of or encountered yet. Adam Booth really shows the skills in progress making and repairing parts. Tom Lipton really shows me crazy accuracies I never really thought were obtainable. I just really enjoy the machining community on RUclips. Thanks for all you do.
Thank you very much keep watching
I think you'll enjoy Robin Renzetti's videos too
𝖘 𝖍 𝖎 𝖗 𝖔 absolutely actually after writing that comment I sort of felt bad about throwing him in as well. He goes into measuring like I can’t hardly comprehend. Thanks
@@Ross_Dugan I learn a lot too from these youtube shop teachers. I'm in college now and I have access to the machine shop where I can try out all kinds of measuring and machining I see here on youtube, learning lots in the process.
Everything from manual mill and lathe to cnc I've been able to learn on and I love it. They don't really teach these things in my school, they just have the machines.
I study industrial design and these techniques I learnt are very valuable for me to produce good prototypes.
Accuracy is a composit of reading, repeatability, resolution, standards, reference point, and money. Then there are such factors as paralax, temperature, technique, attitude, phase of the moon, and how much accuracy do you really need. As the military slogan says, "Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax, file it to fit, and then paint it to match."About that dirt nap, put it off for a while, procrastinate, no big hurry is there?
I used to work in an academic setting with very educated people. It was always a challenge to explain to these folks why something they made did not fit together or function as they intended because of errors based on assumptions they made concerning measuring instruments and scales on machine tools. Of course, there were always questions as to how well they could perform basic shop operations, but most of their problems had to do with layout, cumulative measurement error and indifference to the limits of the tools they were using. I think these kinds of videos are very valuable. They may not get lots of initial views, but they well help people over time become better machinists. Thanks Mr. Pete!
I am going to make more of them, but I am always disappointed in the small number of views. If I had my kitten playing with a ball of yarn it would go viral
Academics, highly educated people....they don't concern themselves with such mundane things such as we do...just ask them...!
I think your comment is correct but that it perhaps can generally be made about most of the population. It is true that people can be very indifferent to the skills involved in especially precision fabrication. I must say, however, that in my years working in universities and research labs I did come across folks who were very good at mechanical and electronic design and fabrication. Yes, they were the exception.
Great job on the comparison. Buy Shars looks like, very impressed. You should check the dial indicator to a gauge block. I find them off quite a bit.
I'm going to do that in another video Randy. How are you doing on that engine. You are 3-D modeling was magnificent
@@mrpete222 Thank you, Engines are coming along well.
I already did that in an upcoming video
today I was picking up my Index mill and the former owner and I wee chatting. Our 35 yr age difference disappeared when you came up in our conversation. we all love you and not the youtube shop teacher, your Americas shop teacher....
That's pretty good accuracy for an Acme leadscrew...!!
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It is ground, not just cut.
Much of that accuracy comes from the operator.
What if you checked the digital Caliper with a 2.000 gage block?
Would not the caliper blades which are hardened be a good location to try the gage block?
The gage block would be the standard for the other methods.
ACME - Good enough for Road Runner, good enough for me :)
This was most enjoyable. I did not what to expect, but I was surprised.
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Perfectly acceptable tolerances for any hobbyist.
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You are a persistant and brilliant person,i have discovered your channel and i m enjoying alot,hanks Mr Pete for you lessons.From Portugal José Braga,thanks again.
Thank you very much, I'm glad you found me. Tell your friends about my channel. Keep watching
Thank you. Learned a lot.
Thanks
That was a very cool experiment. Surprising results
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Very good love what you come up with. You would always be welcome in my shop.
Hi David. I would like to visit you sometime. How much snow did you get? We got 1 inch
Not much snow just a little cool....it's a long day drive but come on up@@mrpete222
I was suprised with the dial indicater....great video Mr Pete.
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Sir, even the standard of an inch had change all these years. As i remember, during the 70`s there is a major change and recently, i believe it is last year, scientists redefined the method of measuring using some sort of electric conductivity to avoid the oxidation of the length standard guage block locate in paris. Your mill is made in 50`s, the mititoyo may be a 70`s product? Your shars and b&l would be a 10`s or after? Event if they are all unuse new, it still won't match. Because they are all base on different standard.
Put it simple, your inch is not my inch and my grandfather disagree with both of us.
well the kilogram is defined by a ball of silicon (or its in the works) of a specific number of atoms, based on its crystal structure, so its actually a MECHANICAL standard now. IIRC they measure the ball of silicons dimensions with lasers and get excellent sphericity, so they know if its this wide then it has to have this number of silicon atoms hence mass.
They have reworked alot of measurements this year too, I think the volt, amper, etc changed by like 0.001 ppm too....
In the end nothing will stay constant IMO.
they will try to base everything off the speed of light and time if they can, since those are the two most precise things. The voltage standard is actually a frequency (time) to voltage converter, called a joseph junction.
there is a slight twist though, with mechanical objects surface finish/contact is actually kind of a standard (hence the value of the gauge block), you would need to do a 3d scan of the surface otherwise, and it does not account for how it deforms practically (i.e. slight porosity in the material), the gauge block is set at SOME kind of tension/compression so its more 'real' then a laser bouncing off of something.
I won't bother to look it up but I doubt the length of the inch was "redefined" in the 70's. What probably changed was how that length was defined. We are probably talking about standards well below a millionth of an inch and so has no practical effect in Mr. Pete's basement when the limits of your readouts are a half thousandth.
Thank you, that's an interesting comment
I really liked it. I did the same thing except for the digital caliper when i mounted my DRO and got about a.001 difference . Glad to know I did it like Mr. Pete. Thanks for the video and your never boring to me always learn something.
Watching in Alabama
Thanks
Although I am in England I measure in inch, feet and miles, too old to care about metric.
First,
Thank you very much for all you’ve done and continue to do to educate and enlighten, *most sincerely.*
.....I personally love all things detailed and high precision oriented, milling, grinding etc.....I’ve watched multiple dozens of refurbishing videos on various channels restoring older vintage machinery, but very few offer detailed troubleshooting, tracking, and tramming accuracy videos on those machines.
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I don't believe Rube Goldberg could do any better.
Or Heath Robinson...
lol
Not a lot of people realize Rube Goldbergs drawings were a satire of how the US government operates...
@@dougankrum3328 How ANY government operates!
One of your best videos. One could go on for ever about this. We have a much wider array to choose from then when we were younger. What surprised me the most was the mitutoyo indicator. It would be interesting to see this done with a gauge block or two. Thanks again mr. Pete.
I just completed the video with gauge blocks. Coming soon
I'm a Brit. Imperial is fine by me...
Me too and after brexit who know :-)
@@Blackcountrysteam 51st State?
From down-under. I'm fine with either.
@@michaelcoceski5442 Yes. Of course. As a Brit I am. amusingly quite a few young people continue to think Imperial. (I am NOT a 'young people' by any stretch of the imagination.)
I’m with you, imperial works fine. If some genius figured out a new and better way to count hours and minutes, why should we change, what we have works fine.
Wonderful to see such acuracy. Please continue to make your videos.
Thanks
Yes I did enjoy it but then most all your videos are interesting and I enjoy them thank you for taking the time
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Great job Mr Pete... I always enjoy your videos. This one really helped to drive home the variations between different gauges in the tool box. It also helped me see that when I'm building a project, to use the same one gauge to complete that project for consistency. Having multiple gauges, I can see myself grabbing a different gauge in haste and introducing additional error into a part.
Thanks , Yes that's all very true
Very informative video Mr. Pete. Good basic knowledge we all need.
Thanks
Thanks for the video, I am almost finished with restoring a 1959 Bridgeport mill.
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The DRO is crazy accurate. Thanks mr Pete.
Mr. Pete I enjoyed the video. I rebuild machinery for a living and one of the ways we calibrate scales on a rebuilt machine is to utilize long gage blocks, we have a set up to 20" blocks. Wring a small, say .200 block on one end and rotate it perp to the long block, so it sticks off the side like a little ledge or tail. Place the long block flat on the table wide side down and make sure the wrung block on the end is not touching the table but securely wrung to the end of the long block sticking straight up. You can then put a test indicator in the spindle, .0001 reading preferable and try to avoid indicols they introduce a lot of hysteresis. Now lower the quill and touch off the end of the long gage block and zero your readout. Then raise the quill just enough to clear the long gage block and crank the table to the other end and touch the indicator stylus to the wrung on ledge which is sticking up and crank the table in to zero the indicator and compare it to the readout. It should be noted you would want to first dial in the side of the block parallel to the axis you are checking to avoid cosine errors. Also when you zero the indicator off the first side of the block, I merely apply drag to the quill lock so it holds z position but I can still move it, you dont want to be loosening and tightening the lock as this deflects the quill. And using the knee will most likely cause yawing of the whole setup, so it is best locked and left locked. On a knee style mill as you move the table from left to right it moves on an arc, even a new machine, this is due to the weight shifting back and forth causing the saddle and knee dovetails to "squish" ever so slightly any running clearance in the dovetails. You will see this by placing a precision level on the table and moving it back and forth. Now on a 50 year old machine like yours it's highly likely the table is peened, in other words its crowned in the middle, this is caused by many years of things being dropped on the table top and also tightening T nuts, this yields the cast iron on the tables surface and causes the surface of the table to compress which elongates only the top layer of the table, and if you know how a bi-metal spring in a thermometer works then it will be obvious to see how this will effectively curve the table over its length. From my experience in rebuilding a machine of that age would probably be .003-.007 high in the middle, just a guess. You could check this with a long straight edge and feeler gauges. We have a saying in machine tool rebuilding, Gravity is always on, and everything's made of rubber. Cheers!
Wow, I hope I can follow this. I will print it out so I can study it. It might be a little beyond me. But thank you so much
Yeah, there's an old book called "Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy", or something like that, about the construction of very accurate machines.
Yeah, it's heavy stuff...
"Did you enjoy watching this as much as I did doing it?". Absolutely. Keep 'em coming!
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I wish there was a way to capture all the great comments you generated in here and put them in an ebook. Love this topic and it is real important to me. Thank you
I'm glad you liked it
I liked this very much and all of your others too. Please make more.
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Yes. I always enjoy your work.
Very interesting Mr. Pete. I think I will do some of my machines like that and check the accuracy . Thanks for posting.
Yes , Do it
No demand? I hunger for this kind of great information, and you supply it with such style. Thank you Sir,
Thank you very much
Thanks Mr Pete, I learn something everytime I watch one of your videos! You are a very good teacher to a lot of noobes on here!
Thank you very much
" VERY INTERESTING " thanks Mr. Pete
Quite interesting, in addition to the practical aspects of it, it makes a person think. A follow up will certainly be watched . Ben
The saying goes "A man with one watch always knows what time it is, a man with two is never sure". Apparently, that also applies to measuring. Thank for the video. I found it to be very interesting. I would think Gage blocks and vernier scales thrown into the mix would be a logical step forward.
Always enjoy watching your videos. I started out on a Wells Index mill using travel dials for references. Thanks
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Great video Mr. Pete! The saga continues. I just went back and watched machine shop tips #56 Hole Layout. At that time in 2011 the DRO was off .002 and the optical center punch was off .001 . These are very interesting videos. Thanks!
I forgot all about that video
Great video. This was extremely interesting. I'll have to try this idea with my old Atlas table top milling machine. Thanks for sharing this great idea.
EDIT - I'm really shocked about the dial indicator being off so much.
ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC! Even in my own shop I have detected differences with measurements. Thank goodness I only have to only occasionally work with 10ths. Great stuff Mr. Pete!!!
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Great video Lyle... That's one of the things that my father taught me at the ripe old age of seven is how to read a Vernier caliper and to this day I still feel like I got to count on my fingers and toes so glad for the digital and even the dial accuracies of the day thank you for all you do keep up the great videos
Yes thanks
Thank you for all of your videos. I have a Prototrak on my mill and have always wondered about its accuracy. Great experiment.
Realy enjoyed watching this , they say never stop learning.
Thanks
Interesting video. Enjoyed it a lot. Surprised at how accurate those old screws in the Bridgeport are. Vote for follow up video, love to see the gauge blocks “ in action”.
Once again another great shop lesson, keep on keeping on, love all your videos!!
Thanks
Thanks Mr. Pete, I did a similar test after I installed my dro on my old bridgie. Not quite as involved, but I had about the same result between my dial on the handle, the dro, and a good dial indicator. I would tend to trust the dro more, but as it is still new to me I second guess it a lot. Anyhow, thanks again and thumbs up for sure
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Very interesting Mr. Pete, all my years of work I really didn't need to get that accurate on the work we did.
Very interesting Mr. Pete. Thanks.
Gary 75-year-old Home-Shop-Machinist in North West Arkansas.
Get in touch next time you come to Grizzly and I will meet you up there.
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Wow nice to see how close they all were
Enoyed the video. I've just acquired my first bridgeport and find this very beneficial
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Awesome! Can't wait for the next one from "our" Mr Pete!
Coming soon
I learn so much from each of your videos! Thank you very much!
I'm glad you liked it
Never thought about doing this...…...but, I found it very interesting. Thanks for taking the time to do this.
Thanks
This is very informative for beginners. Thanks Mr. Pete!
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Very much enjoyed this Mr.Pete..
Awesome video. Thanks as always for sharing your time and many talents! Chuck
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Mr Pete, very much enjoyed the video. Now I’m more confused than ever! It makes my head hurt. Korean proverb: Pain makes man think. Thinking makes man wise. Wisdom makes life endurable.
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This was very interesting. Carpenter crews I worked on over the years would check our tape measures against each other in an attempt to reduce error when cutting. I know our tolerances weren't as precise as yours bit in some case one tape measure against the other could be off as much as 1/16 of an inch in two feet. Great video Mr. Pete
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Thank you Mr. Peterson, I always enjoy your videos.
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Before I saw your name I thought you were ShopdogSam.
20 years ago I mounted a new DRO on my mill. One of the final tests was to calibrate the installation with as long a gage block as available. The basic principle was to mount the gage block perpendicular to an axis, square it and get the length using the DRO. The measurement was entered into the DRO and was used in some correction calculation.
What was interesting was comparing the measurements between a cold and hot shop. Very visible on a 12" gage block.
I will try to incorporate those good ideas and another video
I really enjoyed this and theres a lot of learning value in the exercise itself, shows a lot of what one can expect from the different methods of measurement. Thanks again for sharing your years of experience mr. Pete.
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Thanks Lyle, If you do a follow up video it may be interesting to "profile" the error between the DRO and your leadscrew. I did this when I first installed my DRO. Make a simple chart with one entry per inch from left limit to right limit. Turn the lead screw an inch and record the DRO reading. A worn screw may lag (DRO showing less movement) as you approach the "worn" center then catch up as you continue to less worn section. Profiling a screw is a common practice in CNC machines where the machine can keep a map of screw error and adjust for non linear sections of the screw.
A gauge block stack and a test indicator would also be interesting. Square and clamp a block on the table or vice then zero the indicator. As you move each inch add another inch of blocks and test the zero reading.
Good ideas thanks for the comment. I don't know about that profile I don't think I would know how to do that. But tomorrow's video will show me checking the indicator. With Gage blocks.
As I've said before, the critics can go pound sand. As a new owner (of a 1978 model Bridgeport) these video's are invaluable to me. Just as your lathe video's were when I got my first one. Please keep this up!
Thank you very much
I just learned a new way of using my caliper. tyvm mrpete. 😄
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I like it so far as you took it. I know you don't like to be boring but boring is good. Do it 10 times and then average all the readings. We just know that that old mill is wore some but I strongly suspect that the dial indicator is as well. I've always considered my dial indicators the last word. Now I'm not so sure.. You are the Man!
Thank you, I think I will do a video on that very same Japanese indicator
Dial indicators...I would guess that if there is a measurable wear, it would be on the first bit of movement, since that's where we like to set them up..?
Good to know I have a Bridgeport with the same dro enjoyed this video .
Very much enjoyed - I fought with my machine dials very hard when trying to work to less than .001 and took me a lot of work and set up to work around that at the time!
A measurement is an attempt at accuracy, but not a guarantee.Thanks for the video!
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