Why dodging feels off in Elden Ring and tips we can learn about input design from it.

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  • Опубликовано: 18 ноя 2024

Комментарии • 313

  • @DreadedSaurian
    @DreadedSaurian 2 года назад +123

    I've been going crazy thinking my reaction time has gotten worse every time I fail to dodge even though I feel like I press the button in time. Although it may be the case, still glad that it might not be the sole issue but that it's this being apart of the problem as well.
    Thank you!

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад +7

      ah you're not alone, i was wondering the same thing
      luckily our reaction times are spared, for now...

    • @yanisole1806
      @yanisole1806 2 года назад

      I felt like you. Now i use ashes to dodge, is better

    • @braidena1633
      @braidena1633 2 года назад +1

      Not a souls game expert but I've been foregoing some armor to medium-load roll, which didn't seem to be working, and light-load rolling didn't help either. Was wondering what was wrong with me since i was pressing at the right time and still getting hit.
      This explains it though

    • @rcvbilly4265
      @rcvbilly4265 2 года назад +1

      @@yanisole1806 how?

    • @SoggyTM
      @SoggyTM 8 месяцев назад

      Try playing a game offline when you start getting delayed or latency impacted game play or performance. I was getting the weirdest bizarre anomalies when I was playing AC Valhalla on the series X. I couldn’t seem to get it running smoothly. Until one morning I forgot to plug my cat5 in. Suddenly the game was fixed. Fast, responsive and smooth game performance and feel.
      So much data is being collected now, that single player games are lagging, unresponsive, inconsistent with crazy artefacts like teleport rubber banding, latency and in one game freezing for a second every couple like a heart beat. Was a really weird experience during a large battle.

  • @D3humaniz3d
    @D3humaniz3d 2 года назад +101

    Whats funnier, is that the input registering is inconsistent. I've set up macros for dodging on my keyboard, and anything below 20ms duration between press and depress would spontaneously not register the input at all. Truly a quality japanese PC port. That and lack of 21:9, depsite the game rendering in the proper resolution - it just slaps black bars on the side of the screen.

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад +4

      they've never supported 21:9 if i remember correctly...

    • @michaelhuntsalot8312
      @michaelhuntsalot8312 2 года назад +12

      It not just PC it a problem on all versions.

    • @ronignino
      @ronignino 10 месяцев назад +5

      They do support 21:9. The problem is that they insert those bars on purpose. The game is rendering 21:9​@@GameDesignNuggets

    • @LiviaReaper
      @LiviaReaper 8 месяцев назад

      yeah good luck pressing so fast that the time between them is lower than 20ms maybe that’s there for a reason?

    • @LiviaReaper
      @LiviaReaper 8 месяцев назад

      You do know direct inputs with no delay or queue would be way worse right?

  • @alchemy5750
    @alchemy5750 2 года назад +63

    Went back to Dark Souls 3 after playing Elden Ring for a few months.
    My god how good it felt that my controls are extremely smooth, responsive, instant, I'm able to correct errors and don't have to be flawless to squeeze any sort of enjoyment out of the game.

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад +14

      A fellow gamer by the name of Seraph somewhere in these here comments mentioned there is a mod on nexus mods that fixes the issue if you are on pc!

    • @LiviaReaper
      @LiviaReaper 8 месяцев назад

      They’re not the same game, get used to it. It’s literally a feature but everyone is talking about “fixing” it!???

    • @SoggyTM
      @SoggyTM 8 месяцев назад +2

      Yeah. I really notice not being able to correct an error or change actions last split second in games that don’t have that.

    • @Rujewitblood
      @Rujewitblood 8 месяцев назад

      @@LiviaReaper its a fucking shit 'feature'

    • @barbatos7233
      @barbatos7233 6 месяцев назад +16

      @@LiviaReaperdon’t call bad design a feature.

  • @frizen9328
    @frizen9328 2 года назад +82

    I noticed the sluggishness immediately and realized it was on release. Funnily enough I've actually utilized the way it works when I accidentally try to dodge too early and realizing this just don't let go of the button until later.

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад +2

      oh that's clever!

    • @runnergo1398
      @runnergo1398 2 года назад +1

      This is absolute BS! What do you mean by "dodging too early" because there is no such thing. When you press circle and let go, you dodge. If you hold it down, you run.

    • @frizen9328
      @frizen9328 2 года назад +6

      @@runnergo1398 Yes exactly, I only let go of the button when I'm ready to dodge and quickly tap the button again in case I held long enough for the dodge not to trigger on release. With how often bosses love to nonsensically delay their attacks you often attempt to dodge too early and sometimes have the reaction speed to correct it like I do.
      Edit: There is a very much noticeable period between being able to press the button and releasing it and still dodging, it's definitely a thing.

    • @runnergo1398
      @runnergo1398 2 года назад

      @@frizen9328 , ya, I'm starting to notice it. Though I still end up spamming the button.

    • @frizen9328
      @frizen9328 2 года назад +1

      @@runnergo1398 With the awareness required for it its not something I do consistently. I still succumb to panic rolling most of the time as well 😂

  • @hektik2200
    @hektik2200 2 года назад +82

    I’m fairly certain that the DS3 is the same. Yet DS3 dodge feels like almost godmode hacks compared to Elden Ring dodge.

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад +20

      I too do not remember it being as bad in earlier games...

    • @zackdeross5094
      @zackdeross5094 Год назад +4

      I think its because of the I frames and timing being slightly different from the earlier games, but I could be wrong.

    • @QuartoModulado
      @QuartoModulado Год назад +12

      ER just has a larger delay for input for some reason

    • @Sam-sv4yy
      @Sam-sv4yy 4 месяца назад +3

      DS3 is totally better and smooth.

  • @Kimberly-op4fo
    @Kimberly-op4fo 4 месяца назад +4

    2 years later and I've beaten every boss on Ng+. This shit still fucks me over at least twice a day. I really don't know who thought this garbage would be enjoyable but they need to be quarantined and fucking studied on.

  • @yanisole1806
    @yanisole1806 2 года назад +132

    I saw it as a core flaw desing because dodging is critical in this game.

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад +13

      it certainly is a curious choice

    • @clukskin
      @clukskin 2 года назад +6

      this is why i blocked my way through the game instead of trying to use dodge

    • @ALaz502
      @ALaz502 2 года назад +7

      It works fine. It just works slightly differently than the other games. Once you get used to it it works perfectly well.

    • @Leto_0
      @Leto_0 2 года назад +31

      @@ALaz502 lol yeah, "works fine". I guess this video and all these comments don't need to exist. I guess all these people's frustrations are due to user error...
      People complain to make changes happen, duh. This would be an easy change to make.
      The fact that you have to adapt to the mechanic to make it playable means it isn't working how it should. Users shouldn't need to figure out how to use a product, the product should be designed intuitively.

    • @moonnis4608
      @moonnis4608 10 месяцев назад +8

      ​@@Leto_0 this, i love ER but im so sick and tired of fanboys shielding it from criticism it truly deserves

  • @PeterMasalski93
    @PeterMasalski93 2 года назад +75

    I did Bloodborne and all souls game up to Ng+7 to the point where I could beat any boss with 0 armor without getting hit..
    In elden ring I was constantly getting hit.. It was so frustrating..
    I will simply wait for something to create a mod or hack and play it like that

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад +3

      I believe in you peter and in the mods you will download!

    • @Chrischos
      @Chrischos 2 года назад +5

      maybe try EMU Light their is a version for ER too now i ddid it for DS3 also it changes my dodges by alot even in DS 3 its too much for me coming from fighting games
      EMU Light has many features but the one u mainly will activate is to split sprint and dodge roll to two different buttons so the roll comes isntantly and not after 300 ms waiting for wich input is meant

  • @fancypantsy2741
    @fancypantsy2741 2 года назад +24

    i think that's this topic is so divisive amongst people who are playing Elden Ring right now, because a plethora of people are reporting input lag/delay in their games and yet just as many are experiencing little-to-none. So, I actually got the luxury of trying it out across three different systems, once on the PS5 and twice on two different computers, and the input lag/delay felt different on each system. I noticed my own computer was far more responsive to the inputs compared to my friends computer which had worse hardware; whilst the PS5 sat "in-between" for how much you could notice it. Leads me to believe it's something about how the game is optimized in its current state as opposed to something built into the game.

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад

      damn that's real interesting fancy pantsy...

    • @warriordinag3921
      @warriordinag3921 2 года назад +2

      Is that why it always feels so much worse during boss fights? I know in other souls games there was slowdown during certain boss fights/attacks (yhorm and dancer off the top of my head), and that slowdown definitely impacted the inputs.

    • @Leto_0
      @Leto_0 2 года назад +1

      @@warriordinag3921 "slowdown" isnt a game feature, that's just your computer struggling to run at a decent framerate. It probably happens on boss fights because they're big complex models with lots of partical effects
      Yeah that would definitely have a massive effect on your ability to play, you should lower your graphics

  • @sjbell4653
    @sjbell4653 2 года назад +35

    I think this analysis is right on the mark. So many times I have been frustrated by a seemingly slow dodge, or a dodge that doesn't happen at all. And it is such an important mechanic in this game- could have been done better.

  • @dorkmoonblade4315
    @dorkmoonblade4315 2 года назад +43

    Tip: You can use an ash of war called Quickstep or its new more op version Bloodhound Step to have a dodge that activates on press rather than on release.

  • @larrydotson2625
    @larrydotson2625 Год назад +3

    Finally a comment section that isn't completely full of people gushing about how this game is a flawless masterpiece. I like parts of this game, it has its selling points but it things in it that are questionable at best but if you politely point this out to people they dismiss you with claims that you just can't handle such challenging title.

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  Год назад

      I don't know what you are talking about Larry this is a flawless game, it sounds like you can't handle the challenge.............. 😜
      You should see my video about Tears of the Kingdoms input being weird the comments are less favorable

  • @demonhunters9239
    @demonhunters9239 2 года назад +36

    does this happen to anyone else that when you miss the doge and get hit your character rolls after you've already been hit (usually into another attack since most enemies use combos)

    • @noah-tl1gv
      @noah-tl1gv 2 года назад +19

      yeah, elden ring queues up actions when you try to do something before your first action finishes. doesnt work with flasks tho for some reason. its really not well implemented though and imo causes more issues than solves.

    • @subcinericius
      @subcinericius 2 года назад +5

      ​@@noah-tl1gv Its called a input BUFFER and without it a lot of actions would feel way of like jumping ofter a jump would require you to spam jump instead of it being buffered and executed the moment your allowed to jump again.

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад +3

      yup, like these gamers are outlining, there is input queuing in elden ring

    • @extremecat9863
      @extremecat9863 2 года назад

      It's called input-buffering, and it is a technique that lots of games use to make the experience easier. Take Geometry Dash for example. Without input-buffering, it would be insanely hard to do fast paced levels, as you would have to press the exact moment that you touch the ground instead of a bit before.

    • @akocleol3856
      @akocleol3856 2 года назад +11

      as people mentioned, its buffering. however, it needs to be said that not all inputs will buffer. there is no reason why a failed dodge where u already got punished should buffer, essentially u get punished 2x if this happens for 1 mistake

  • @86Corvus
    @86Corvus 10 месяцев назад +7

    elden ring makes me feel like the worst shittiest gamedesign has somehow become accepted as good game design. jumps are delayed, attacks are delayed, dodges are delayed, theres move QUEUEING system which means once your dodge doesnt happen immediately it will happen 2 seconds later once the jump is finished. the game is COMPLETELY unresponsive, might aswell play it by wielding the pad by the cord and smashing the wall with it.

  • @seraph4601
    @seraph4601 2 года назад +7

    After trying out rolling side by side in dark souls 3 and elden ring, there is still an artificial delay in elden ring between releasing the roll button and your character starting the roll, despite ds3 using the same button mapping. The distance covered in your roll is also shortened by a ton, a med roll in elden ring covers about the same distance as a fat roll in ds3, but still has 13 i-frames. For PC players however, there is a fix on nexus mods (called dodge roll lag fix for controllers - elden ring) that will let you remap the run function to another button, and shortening the input delay on your roll button which makes it way more responsive. It won't get you banned in online play either which is nice

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад

      Nice Seraph! I figured it was a matter of time before someone mods it out. Thanks for sharing.

  • @EdgarciArts2980
    @EdgarciArts2980 2 года назад +16

    Mkay, but that makes sense as to why I really didn't like the movement in game. I never liked how loaded up the button was for running/dodging. I've been spoiled by highly responsive gameplay from Bayonetta, Hades, Nier Automata, Horizon, etc.

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад +4

      there are an awful lot of things put on that circle button

  • @RynKen
    @RynKen 2 года назад +10

    I came to terms with the dodge latency and decided that the dodge requiring a little more anticipation is fine. The "mini Sprint" situation was driving me crazy because I though the game was dropping inputs, when a lot was happening all at once. I don't like it, but at least now I can attempt to skill my way out of the problem instead of thinking it's completely out of my hands.
    *Starting Character:* Vagabond. I eventually plan on making all sorts of builds so, I figured I'd start with the most basic.

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад +1

      vagabond is a pretty dope choice
      and yea the "mini sprints" were confusing the hell out of me till i figured it out and got used to it

  • @markcastator2352
    @markcastator2352 2 года назад +9

    I’m so glad that I’m not the only one who noticed this! I’ve never had this issue in DS1-3 (I did in DS2 until you level ADP enough, then the issue is non existent) or in Bloodborne. I thought I was losing my mind. Still leaves me curious as to why they changed it in ER. Honestly it’s hindering me from finishing my Strength/Faith build..

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад

      The mind of a gamer is never lost!
      And yea it seems like we were all in this one together.

    • @worscohli
      @worscohli Год назад +1

      dude i legit thought i was going crazy or thought i was retarded or something. my roommates caught me yelling at the game saying "why tf are you taking 10 O inputs to do One dodge and still not doing the dodge?! Ur making me feel retarded! I know Im pressing these god damn buttons!" bro i was livid. this video clears things up tho, doesnt make em better,but, clears things up nevertheless.

  • @ookiiokonomiyaki
    @ookiiokonomiyaki 4 месяца назад +2

    I can't dodge in this game at all. I see attack coming. I press the circle. Character rolls. Attack isn't landing. I roll again. Attack is still not landing. Roll again. Attack is still coming. No stamina for fourth roll. Character gets hit anyway. Get almost killed with a single shot. I try to dodge as the character stands up. Character gets hit anyway before it manages to roll. No profit.

  • @itsallgood1972
    @itsallgood1972 2 года назад +5

    Very nice way to describe lousey controls.

  • @colomboricua
    @colomboricua 2 года назад +10

    This, yes. I've been having just input issues in general. Especially jump attacks not doing the attack... I end up just hopping and getting whaled on :(

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад

      damn that sucks to hear Denoc i imagine that can be pretty frustrating

  • @darkeather2
    @darkeather2 2 года назад +5

    I'm just confused why I get the same sluggish/completely unresponsive feeling despite coming straight from DS3, which has the same functionality as Elden Ring's dodge.

  • @deus2645
    @deus2645 2 года назад +7

    I want sekiro gameplay here where fast phased combat action is a must. Too many delay inputs I wish modders will do something to put sekiro combat here

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад +2

      I picked the samurai class hoping it would be Sekiro... but alas...

    • @noop9k
      @noop9k 2 года назад

      Multiplayer is absent in Sekiro

  • @Bladieblah
    @Bladieblah 2 года назад +7

    Nice video, I really enjoyed watching it. It would be a nice quality of life change if they allowed players to map dodge and only dodge roll to a single button, or just in general give players more freedom to map buttons

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад +1

      thank you!
      yea it would be nice if they allowed that

  • @GuyWithAnAmazingHat
    @GuyWithAnAmazingHat 2 года назад +8

    I see, this is why even Genshin at 100 ms lag feels way better.

  • @stevetoalacox
    @stevetoalacox 5 месяцев назад +4

    so the dodge is broke but FRomsoft doesnt care about it cuz they made it a feature instead of fix it. Forreals sometimes the game just deactivates you dodge, your character simply stays there doing nothing for no reason.

  • @droycon
    @droycon Месяц назад +2

    Any mods that solve this? I started the game and it’s been a complete turnoff

  • @SourClout
    @SourClout 2 года назад +10

    Doesn't it have input delay on top of all this too?

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад +2

      i havent looked into that although i have felt some input lag myself

    • @usokkithetree8738
      @usokkithetree8738 2 года назад +14

      Yes it does, videos like this are misinformation as it dismisses the actual issue.

    • @Jsnipes98
      @Jsnipes98 2 года назад +2

      .166 millisecond delay

    • @itsallgood1972
      @itsallgood1972 2 года назад +5

      Yes it definitely does. Ppl are trying to explain away lousey controls.

    • @noop9k
      @noop9k 2 года назад

      I thought these games always has this lag to mask multiplayer lag.

  • @barbatos7233
    @barbatos7233 6 месяцев назад +2

    This issue made me quit the game permanently after 200 hours. If I press an input, an output should be immediate, especially in a reaction based game. Good game ruined by idiots who can’t map controls properly

  • @Jousten16
    @Jousten16 2 года назад +5

    Dude, this explains it perfectly! I wondered why the hell it felt so sluggish and delayed compared to Dark Souls 3 and this make sense.
    They could have just put running on another button and removed the backstep altogether because no one uses it anyway.

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад +1

      they could have indeed...

    • @Brian-rt5bb
      @Brian-rt5bb 2 года назад +6

      "why the hell it felt so sluggish and delayed compared to Dark Souls 3 and this make sense. " ... but doesn't Dark Souls 3 use the exact same system? Release for roll, hold for run. It's been a while since I played DS1 but I swear every single Dark Souls game uses this control scheme.

    • @MonoFlax
      @MonoFlax 2 года назад +4

      @@Brian-rt5bb yeah the circle button works the exact same as in dark souls 3, if it didnt feel sluggish or delayed in that game it must have some other reason

    • @noop9k
      @noop9k 2 года назад

      People measured it to be the same

  • @WeAization
    @WeAization 2 года назад +1

    My friend and I that played all Souls so far also had the same problem, or similar problem, it was so annoying. But we changed some settings in the sticky keys and after that everything runned smoothly and responsively, like in every game before.

  • @plagx3428
    @plagx3428 2 года назад +2

    I probably got to used to Sekiro lmao) I am used to that I can parry enemies attack right when I click it so I am trying to do the same with Elden Rings dodging. Which got me killed a lot. There is another Ash of War- bloodhund step: it is binded to another key and u can feel the difference in the delay between when u use bloodhund step and usual dodge. I wanna react and dodge enemies right when they are about to hit me. Bcuz otherwise I either click to early or it's delayed. I wanna use my reaction at its max but that delay doesn't let me do it. Tho I am not saying I am crazy gamer but with the time u will get used to enemies attacks and start reading them

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад +1

      fwiw you dont dodge much in sekiro, you stand your ground and parry so wasn't as noticeable for me.

    • @plagx3428
      @plagx3428 2 года назад

      @@GameDesignNuggets yes. The main combat element in Sekiro is parry while in Elden Ring it is dodging. That's I am comparing them.

  • @SoggyTM
    @SoggyTM 8 месяцев назад

    I’ve noticed with the PS5 if you unbind everything from the L3 and R3 in a game. You get much better response, precision and smoother refresh on the screen. Even unbinding just some of the actions to L3 & R3 will improve it. With some games though the hassle needed to rearrange everything sometimes I still couldn’t find a comfortable way to do it by the end of the game. Like GOW Ragnarok. I was still rearranging my layout by the end of it.

  • @its_judge.b
    @its_judge.b 2 года назад +3

    Nice to know that I'm not crazy for a "delayish" dodge. So that means, I'm not bad! Well... not really. I'm still bad lol.

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад +1

      i mean, you could still be crazy... just not about this

    • @its_judge.b
      @its_judge.b 2 года назад +1

      @@GameDesignNuggets it's the madness build up.

  • @csabagalambos1461
    @csabagalambos1461 4 месяца назад

    I'm fairly certain that there is a delay AFTER releasing the button. In DS1, I could release the button, and snap my finger before the roll was executed.
    I doubt it is a display issue. I have a loud keyboard, and there is a very noticable gap between the sound of me releasing the key, and my dumbfounded, inert character grunting as he is being hit.
    I understand that controllers have barely any buttons for some godforsaken reason, but players using keyboard should be allowed to rebind dodge and sprint to separate keys.
    There is also an ancient Fromsoft bug (or sadistic feature?) that causes your dodge input to be ignored if you release a movement key (or stick) at the same time with the dodge key.

  • @williammonteiro9150
    @williammonteiro9150 2 года назад +6

    this is just bad game design for me, sorry. i can't think of any reason that justifies making the game like that, it's just frustating, there's no benefit at all.

  • @ryo-kai8587
    @ryo-kai8587 2 года назад +1

    This is technically true, but it's not the main reason the dodge feels very off for any experienced action game player. Take Nioh for example; that game has dodge and sprint bound to the same button, but it's _way_ more responsive. As a big fan of Nioh 2, I've trained myself to do sharp taps on the dodge button in order to release it as quickly as possible, and ER's dodge just has way too much input delay. Part of it may be forced V-sync, but it's also been tested and it's still longer than Souls or Sekiro by a noticeable amount. Also, input queueing is egregiously long as the game will hold onto inputs for seconds until your character can act, further disconnecting you from your character and killing responsiveness.

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад +1

      You sound like a gamer of some experience, precision, and expertise!

  • @dukedirtywork620
    @dukedirtywork620 Год назад

    Absolutely agree. Dodge and even heal should be their own buttons, separate from all others.

  • @AN-dv5fs
    @AN-dv5fs 3 месяца назад +2

    Everything is delayed. It's the name of the game, not a flaw.

  • @-GodIsMyJudge-
    @-GodIsMyJudge- 2 года назад +1

    Wish all the people who beg for nerfs would instead ask fromsoft to add an option to change where sprint/dash is bound so that you could actually play reactively. Especially with how many delayed attacks there are in this game it just seems weird that you have to preemptively dodge before an enemy has even attacked

  • @albylopi991
    @albylopi991 2 года назад +10

    Thanks for this important info man, i unfortunately dropped Elden Ring due to this issue, i notice some input lag, but because noone was talking about it i thought was my reaction time fault.
    Was my first Souls and in my mind the system was press the button -> the command go to the console -> the action being showed, but actualy is not like that and im so disappointed with From, because ER is a such beatiful game, but i dont have the energy and the time to "learn" this imput pattern.
    There is some way to "change" the button on Xbox One, to trying fix this problem?

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад +2

      hey alby!
      i cant think of anything off the top of my head to fix this unfortunately i think it is something fromsoft would have to fix but it feels core to how they make their games
      I feel the frustration, it's a great game for sure but asks a lot from you.

    • @Stryfe52
      @Stryfe52 2 года назад +4

      You should still play it, and try the other games too; they’ll don’t have this annoying issue

  • @andreacremona3454
    @andreacremona3454 2 года назад +4

    Hi everyone,
    I'm experiencing something similar, but, as I recorded myself playing, this seems not to be the explanation of my issue. Any input I press during exploration has some delay, but is never ignored by the game. Only during combat phases, the input delay becomes annoying and lots of inputs are totally ignored....Dodges, healings and attacks...
    I've tried the controller on other games and it works properly.
    I'm playing on ps4, but this problem seems not to be common...
    I hope I'm not the only one

    • @robertkaczmarczyk6173
      @robertkaczmarczyk6173 2 года назад +4

      I have the same issue on PS5 that some inputs seem to be just dropped. Cost me a boss fight where I wanted to use torrent's double jump to jump over an attack and the game just said "oh no you don't" and simply didn't perform the jump

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад

      lol damn that's rough

    • @meters_and_madness
      @meters_and_madness 2 года назад

      Not sure if this is what your problem is, but I have to point out that in Souls games when you press a button you are committed to that action. You can't cancel attacks, rolls, heals, etc.. These actions have to be timed effectively. If you're getting wrecked by a boss is it possible you're hitting multiple inputs during an animation for something else?

    • @andreacremona3454
      @andreacremona3454 2 года назад +1

      @@meters_and_madness Yeah, You're right, but I've tried the game on PC and this problem didn't show up. I've played all other souls games and never had issues like this. If you miss the right timing You get hit, ok, but in this case you get hit because your carachter does not execute your command, even if you press only one button (I've already tried all the possibilities).
      I've also noticed that dodging animation seems to be bugged: The carachter stops guarding (If your shield is up) but, instead of rolling and then guard again......He/She gets stuck and simply stands without doing any action.

  • @davidtsmith33
    @davidtsmith33 2 года назад

    Thanks for this vid. Never knew it activated on release.

  • @babakgeblee3343
    @babakgeblee3343 2 года назад +1

    Emu mod in pc has alleviated the issue but you need to be offline as there is a chance for ban

  • @niklaskras5498
    @niklaskras5498 Год назад +1

    I almost quit the game just because of the horrible controls and targeting system. Then switched to custom mmo mouse and keyboard. Way better now. I have two dodge buttons now. One with a macro that fires the sprint/dodge button for 50ms which is always a dodge and one with the original control to do sprints.

  • @RickSeri
    @RickSeri 4 месяца назад +2

    That explains the bad design elden ring has.

  • @sakelock7986
    @sakelock7986 2 года назад +1

    The easy fix is just to add button to elden ring for sprint tk be put elsewhere? Is that really it>.

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад

      ye it isnt really complicated to fix, overload something else...

  • @DreamskyDance
    @DreamskyDance 2 года назад

    I played Dark Souls games for majority of last year and then played Horizon Zero Dawn in december...
    Now i know why dodges in Horizon seemed so off and i missed every dodge there, i was used with muscle memory probably to count a slight delay because it activates on release so i dodged too early in Horizon every time.
    I mean i get that type of binding...for one there is no other place to put all that functionality...for other players are used to it from Dark Souls games...and thirdly it is more precise.
    As a web developer i bind "on key up" things like scrolling the specific parts of a page with arrow keys... or "on mouse up" some buttons exactly to give that precision to user if he/she has to search something on a page or needs a specific click.

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад +1

      Horizon does something weird with its dodge too but it isn't related to its controls... their enemies home in on you and are really sticky mid attack so you more or less have to dodge at the last second...

  • @mts4651
    @mts4651 2 года назад

    Okay now it feel way more responsive but the sprint button on A the same for doging is a mistake they made

  • @thebulletkin8393
    @thebulletkin8393 2 года назад

    I asked my friends who all play on kbm and they didn’t seem to notice it, but I even managed to record slow motion footage to prove it exists and it’s so annoying it’s honestly leading me to consider refunding.
    It’s so consistent that I felt like it was a genuine design choice

    • @seinfan9
      @seinfan9 2 года назад +1

      Because it is. Some guy mentioned a pickup in the game to have the roll occur on the press. Great game design, right?

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  Год назад +1

      the bestest

  • @whatthefunk1889
    @whatthefunk1889 2 года назад

    Nice vid. Good content. Good quality. Good job!

  • @youtakel7708
    @youtakel7708 5 месяцев назад +2

    Game devs can't make a proper difficult game so they make the dodging have a 100ms delay 🤡🤡🤡

  • @kadekpastika905
    @kadekpastika905 4 месяца назад

    I thought that I was the only one that feel the delay when dodging

  • @user-ot1dv6ri4f
    @user-ot1dv6ri4f Месяц назад +2

    Yes the button you need to be most accurate and responsive has a timer attached to it so that it can tell whether you are holding or pressing it.
    Dumbest decision I've ever seen in a game.
    Never even mind the fact that in order to move through the world you need to sprint and that requires you to wait for the button to become a hold action, which is why it feels sluggish to start running. it honestly feels like 300 milliseconds. disgraceful.
    This game is fucking trash for this and many other reasons.

  • @kblargh
    @kblargh 4 месяца назад

    This. It's inexcusable that they haven't been able to fix this in their SIXTH Souls game, AFTER they already learned their lesson in Sekiro. This doesn't require a full-on gameplay revamp, just map your functions correctly already.

  • @ryzenwick120
    @ryzenwick120 2 года назад +2

    Despite been the worst souls, dark souls 2 for me had the best feeling of rolling

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад +1

      ah i dont remember it... it certainly wasnt their best.

    • @loaf1712
      @loaf1712 2 года назад +1

      It didn’t even having omnidirectional movement.

    • @MV-ri7zu
      @MV-ri7zu Год назад

      I thought the weird movement was the WORST part of DS2 lol

  • @fireflywater
    @fireflywater 5 месяцев назад

    Did this ever get fixed, or allow the player to fix it? This problem existed ever since Dark Souls 1 (unless you're locked on and moving sideways or backwards, in which case a sprint is impossible) and the audacity the development team must have to add a dedicated jump button but not a dedicated roll button after so long is the #1 reason why I refuse to even entertain the thought of trying Elden Ring, despite enjoying DS1 and modded DS3 in the past.

  • @vnueng6787
    @vnueng6787 2 года назад

    Very useful tip. Thanks man.

  • @galenburnett9791
    @galenburnett9791 2 года назад

    this problem absolutely ruined this game for me.
    testing with game builder garage at 60fps it looks like a ‘short-hop’ tap as in smash bros lasts for 2 frames whereas a regular quick press lasts for less than 5-which isn’t a lot really. 5 frames of input lag is standard for smash online and it was never too much of a problem there, and smash is generally a MUCH quicker game than this. the other two factors making the delay so awful are the insanely short windup times of some enemies’ moves, and the delay in the arrival of the i-frames: though the wiki will state that they come on frame 1, it just isn’t true, i have definitely been hit numerous times in the early stage of the roll animation

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад

      Interesting thanks for sharing the facts! If you are on PC Seraph in a later comment described there is a mod on nexus mods that lets you rebind the keys and that helps a bit! It's a really good game might be worth a shot.

  • @diswazzi1683
    @diswazzi1683 2 года назад

    They need to fix this fucking whole second long input que, a whole fucking god damn second long

  • @TheSometimeAfter
    @TheSometimeAfter Год назад +2

    Why would they even program it like this??? Just feels like artificial difficulty manipulation to me.
    Terrible game design, especially in a game so punishing

  • @86Corvus
    @86Corvus 10 месяцев назад +3

    1 DONT DESIGN YOUR GAME FOR A PAD.
    2 Input means input, its doesnt mean react some time later it means react now.

  • @noah_005
    @noah_005 Год назад +1

    I played so much Horizon: FW and it made acclimation very difficult 😩

  • @yuch1102
    @yuch1102 2 года назад

    is there anyway to fix this on the PS5? cant you map the dodge to a different button in the settings?

  • @lokzim
    @lokzim 2 года назад

    actually, it's even worse when i'm holding up my shield and try to dodge. i tap dodge like a veteren would, and sometime it doesn't work at all and i'm still walking around.... jesus fuck seriously

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад

      damn that sounds brutal, ive not used shields in my playthrough

  • @caxshen
    @caxshen 8 месяцев назад

    your solution might seem useful but it doesn't eliminate the lag, fromsoft deliberately added lag to the game i think, because non of their previous game has such issue.

  • @tomasgarza1249
    @tomasgarza1249 2 года назад +2

    But there is an advantage to this, it lets you cancel dodges if you got baited by a delayed attack.
    Just dont release the spacebar, and you effectively cancelled your dodge.
    Or if you dodged milliseconds too early, you can hold the button for a little bit and release it a few milliseconds later.
    I like the layer of complexity

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад +5

      Spacebar?
      Spacebar....
      Space... bar...
      space..............bar..............
      whoa...

    • @Leto_0
      @Leto_0 2 года назад +1

      Spacebar? Oh dear...

  • @skibumgames
    @skibumgames 2 года назад +2

    There is still input lag!!

  • @Cyon2012
    @Cyon2012 2 года назад

    Nice to know! Can anything be done against that? I want it on the press!

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад

      If PC someone might release a mod for it, but I don't think much can be done on console.

  • @johnpettigrew9420
    @johnpettigrew9420 9 месяцев назад +2

    Its such bad design that even on keyboard and mouse, all these actions have to be bound under a single key.

    • @lixthewitch6718
      @lixthewitch6718 4 месяца назад

      It actually feels laggier on keyboard. Dodging feels somehow even less responsive.

  • @specrtre
    @specrtre 2 года назад

    i switched to L3 for dogde, and feel like I just have bad timing

  • @86Corvus
    @86Corvus 10 месяцев назад +2

    No, you are wrong, it doesnt react at all for like 1 second. I played the game on pc. both attacking and dodging has 1 second delay. Its ridiculus.

  • @julianopetronetto5819
    @julianopetronetto5819 2 года назад

    I really hate it! I can't count how many times I died because my char didn't dodge but sprinted instead

  • @darrenfleming7901
    @darrenfleming7901 Год назад +1

    Fromsoftware be like "ah let's just randomly add like 200 ms of delay on our dodge to make it more "precise" lmao xd" fucking stupidest thing I ever seen. They make like 5 of the most popular games of all time with dodge on press and for some reason they feel the need to change up something so fundamental. Really sucking my enjoyment of the game on a second playthrough. First time through I just brushed it off as me not knowing wtf was going so it was normal that I was getting my ass kicked but this just feels like being clunky for the sake of bs difficulty now.

  • @fractalphilosophorum9405
    @fractalphilosophorum9405 2 года назад +1

    1:58
    Actually binding rolling to the release of the button gives you better controle than binding it to the pressing (because the physical action of releasing is more precise than pushing).
    I haven't yet played Elden ring, but I have finished ds3 two times and killed some bosses more than 3, and I can say that binding the roll to the release goes with the gameplay.
    People that complain about it don't understands how to play correctly. I'm talking about the delay that originates from the binding not the other types of delay.
    Here is how EVERY ennemi will attack you (at least in ds3 and bloodborne, but I'm pretty sure it's the same in other FS games) :
    Every attack can be devided into 2 different parts. The first one is when the ennemi charges his attack, and the second one is when he swings, that's when you have to dodge.
    And by seeing attacks in 2 different parts rather than a whole chunk, we can easily understand why binding rolling to the release of the button is better.
    For exemple, the boss Nameless king put delay on evey one of his attacks and when he swings, he do it way too fast so it's always too late to press the button if we see that he started swinging. He just do charged attacks everytime and that tricks us into rolling earlier and thus we end up getting hit. But we can use the way rolling works to our advantage : a little bit after the ennemy starts the attack animation (ie a little bit after the ennemy starts charging his attack), we press the button, then when he moves his body to swing his weapon, we release the button. And that gives us extreme precision over our movement, wich is extremely necessary against fast bosses that do a lot of damage per single attack.

    • @darkeather2
      @darkeather2 2 года назад +2

      Yeah, the button-release is fine. I've been playing DS3 since launch so I'm used to it, feels pretty good.
      But something seems.. off about Elden Ring. I'll hit and release dodge like normal, but sometimes it just decides not to. I think it doesn't queue up actions the same way (think pressing dodge immediately after pressing attack, it'll queue up the dodge to activate as soon as you finish the attack animation). Or something behind the scenes is interrupting/canceling the queue for some reason.

    • @LZ93939
      @LZ93939 2 года назад +1

      It’s terrible if you want to play ds3 and elden ring back to back or swap between the games. It fucks with your muscle memory quite a bit and it’s frustrating.

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад

      Perhaps it is a matter of perspective, perhaps not.

  • @AntiSocialismo50
    @AntiSocialismo50 2 года назад +1

    You are right, dodging feels wrong in this game.

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад

      omg jesus! you play elden ring!? damn dawg how...

    • @AntiSocialismo50
      @AntiSocialismo50 2 года назад +1

      @@GameDesignNuggets just using faith

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад

      @Jesus lmao of course... praise be 🙏

    • @cleverman383
      @cleverman383 2 года назад

      It must be nice for you, being able to respawn without waiting 3 days first

  • @UKS0001
    @UKS0001 2 года назад

    that explains alot

  • @royjamhouri3651
    @royjamhouri3651 2 года назад

    Thank you, so much makes sense now!!

  • @wafi5576
    @wafi5576 2 года назад

    00:58 truly Sekiro is their best game

  • @worscohli
    @worscohli Год назад +1

    sounds like some floaty crappy game design to me. its not that hard to used diff buttons. and whats with pressing O to run and L3 to crouch. Do they not realize how often ppl lose their horse due to accidental press on L3?! 😡

  • @caxshen
    @caxshen 8 месяцев назад

    even if you're using the fastest optical keyboard or oled monitor , the issue was unfortunately present, it's about 0.1-0.2 second of delay. fromsoft didn't fix the game, yeah what a dick.

  • @MrFlejon
    @MrFlejon Год назад

    The buffer system is a real problem. It honestly sucks. If you want to sprint after a roll, what do you do? You press the sprint button during the roll. That's a logical reaction. But, it buffers a dodge. So you have to wait out the roll, then hold the button to sprint.
    Also, it seems that when getting hit, the buffer just doesn't work the same, so you're forced to spam the roll button to escape, but guess what happens then? You buffer more rolls.
    It's a terrible gameplay mechanic.
    Since there is so much input delay, plus the buffer window is so large, sometimes you queue up actions that you didn't wanted to do.
    There is absolutely no reason to have a buffer window that large when you are attacking or comboing since you can just spam. A buffer window usually helps you defensively by starting the action as soon as possible after the hitstun animation you are locked in after getting hit.
    If you jump attack and are out of stamina, you can't buffer another jump attack for some reason. It will always buffer a normal attack.
    Also, some doublejumps on horseback don't register, might be related to something else.
    Half of the game's difficulty comes from the faulty mechanics.
    For such a great game, it seems absolutely stupid that the buffer system is that bad. Like, the worst I've ever seen bad.

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  Год назад

      Yea it has it's downsides
      Button mapping and controller input design is a whole design space
      Maybe worth doing a video on perhaps?

  • @stargateheaven23
    @stargateheaven23 2 года назад +2

    But demon's souls does it the same way . On release.

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад +1

      yup! bloodborne too, i think most of their games were like this

  • @nathancovill5318
    @nathancovill5318 Год назад

    guy just waffles on

  • @2Gunz_Gaming
    @2Gunz_Gaming 2 года назад

    thought it was either just me or my controller.

  • @Elmalab
    @Elmalab Год назад

    Elden Ring is only in the title for more views, or is it different in Dark Souls?

  • @idriszamani4031
    @idriszamani4031 Год назад

    is the solution to this is to just use keyboard and only use one keybind to dodge roll

  • @Dhrazor
    @Dhrazor 2 года назад

    I press roll 3 times then I press drink then my character rolls two times, and it's not even consistent... also, input on release? Kidding me? Don't get me wrong I loved spending 5-6 hours trying to kill Illidan and M'uru back in BC, but I'm not going to waste hours trying to fight RNG input lag on every single boss... I find LoL input lag pretty okay but Lost Ark was already quite annoying some times, this is an order of magnitude worse... I'll leave the random rolling simulator for those that have 50 ? 100+ ?(?Excuse me what? Only spent more time in CoD4, WoW, LoL, all of them are Multiplayers) hours to waste... Good luck guys!

    • @Jsnipes98
      @Jsnipes98 2 года назад

      Theres an input que. watch a few videos on that & quit button mashing!

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад

      damn you mentioned like, a lot of games there

  • @cyclopswasright7045
    @cyclopswasright7045 2 года назад

    I just went straight from Horizon to Elden Ring. It is frustrating.

  • @somewhatfrog
    @somewhatfrog 2 года назад +2

    This video is misleading. There is nothing wrong with input design in Elden Ring, rolling and sprinting works absolutely the same as in Dark Souls 3 and Dark Souls 1 and in those games it works perfectly well, super responsive. Problem with ER is that unlike DS3 it has weird input lag as well as input drop issues, which I hope will be fixed in future updates.

    • @bruhder5854
      @bruhder5854 2 года назад +4

      There's always a delay in those games but here it's slower and inconsistent which definitely seems like a bug which is not surprising given how poor the technical side has been for this...

    • @somewhatfrog
      @somewhatfrog 2 года назад

      @@bruhder5854 there was no delay, character rolls as soon as player release the button.

    • @bruhder5854
      @bruhder5854 2 года назад

      @@somewhatfrog idk about that. I've always felt it to be slow (keyboard n mouse player btw)

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад

      you say potato, i say the input design could be better, we can both be gamers still

  • @ZeDerpADerp
    @ZeDerpADerp 2 года назад +1

    so bad input design got it.

  • @knusperkeks2748
    @knusperkeks2748 2 года назад +1

    Intentionally shitty design to introduce that sweet fake difficulty into the game because they've ran out of ideas how to torture their masochistic playerbase. Sorry to say, but E.M.U.Light fixes this dogshit control decently. Can't believe that I don't have access to 100+ hotkeys in a video game that I play on my PC in the year 2022.

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад

      im not sure how intentional some of these things are but i believe in you muh'gamer and your ability to ASCEND the jank and game

  • @Brian-rt5bb
    @Brian-rt5bb 2 года назад +2

    Isn't this arbitrary since rolls have start-up and invincible frames? If Souls games having roll on negative edge was really an issue they could just make them go invincible earlier in the animation, or presumably since this is nearly the 6th game in the series with the same control scheme, they already did and have just kept the same roll stats game to game. Just because an attack or move is slower doesn't mean that it's some kind of mistake. I'm sure there's a lot of people that wish they'd rolled sooner when a dragon swipes them and hits them, but that's not intrinsically the fault of the game if the roll itself follows consistent rules and the game is designed around those rules. To take another similar case, I'm sure to some people the long recovery animations on things like drinking or attacking or casting spells feel "sluggish", but that's intentional to make the combat slower paced and more deliberate.
    From a player's perspective, lesson here shouldn't be "Elden Ring should've adopted a different control scheme than the one it did, which the series has used successfully for ~6 games" but that "if you come from a different series this is why Elden Ring rolling feels different and how you can adapt to it". Instead you've got people in the comments saying things like how they're going to wait until they can program a computer macro to make them roll earlier (???) instead of just learning to press and release the button, which is such a backwards way to approach a game. Learning how to press a button really isn't THAT onerous a burden for a game to impose, any more than say, learning how to time parries in Sekiro, or learning any other new mechanic. Players should be encouraged to learn new things, not told that the game is cheating them by being marginally different.

  • @alexn.t.6344
    @alexn.t.6344 Год назад

    I thought you would propose a solution :D. Anyway, interesting topic. And it gets even worse when using the microsoft adaptive controller.

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  Год назад

      lol yes
      I'm sure there are mods for PC by now
      Console you're on your own...

  • @mozgus8156
    @mozgus8156 2 года назад

    But this is nothing new. This is true for all FromSoft games. Why does it feel worse/more sluggish/delayed than all Dark Souls games?

  • @seinfan9
    @seinfan9 2 года назад

    Cheap infusion of difficulty.

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  Год назад

      Or perhaps it is an expensive extraction on simplicity........

  • @LeNoLi.
    @LeNoLi. 2 года назад +1

    WTF i do not have any input lag at all.

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад +2

      that's interesting then, could be related to hardware or platform even, or heck, just a bug sometimes

  • @nacorcarmonablanco4414
    @nacorcarmonablanco4414 Год назад +1

    This design is horrid and nonsensical. At the end you get used to it, but I really wish FS developers get rid of it for future games.

  • @gowthamkrishna1568
    @gowthamkrishna1568 2 года назад +1

    Dude I literraly went from playing horizon on NG+ straight to elden ring. SMH

  • @KissyKaede
    @KissyKaede 2 года назад +1

    It's bullshit and needs to be changed back to DS3 dodging.

    • @GameDesignNuggets
      @GameDesignNuggets  2 года назад +1

      it takes a bit of getting used to for sure but I believe in you