Dionysian Cult Cycle (?), Villa of Mysteries, before 79 C.E., fresco, Pompeii, Speakers: Dr. Beth Harris and Dr. Steven Zucker. Created by Beth Harris and Steven Zucker.
Wonderful analysis. Thank you for the upload. Most of us will never have the opportunity to travel and view this magnificent slice of a culture. You guys are also fun to listen to!
Collectively, these frescoes could be argued to be the single most important survival of painting from Greco-Roman antiquity. Even though much of the iconography will doubtlessly remain mysterious, we can linger over the fine details of the figures and derive a real sense of how ladies of this time and place were dressed and adorned. The loss of most of the central figure of Ariadne (some scholars have also speculated that this could be a representation of Semele, Dionysus' mother) is regrettable, as is the draped figure just to the divine couple's left (our right), with just the green of her robe to tantalize us. This generously uploaded video, with its attentive analysis, is the next best thing to actually being able to visit the site.
The video even is _better_ than visiting the site, at least compared with _only_ visiting the site. You can do greatly with only the video, but you'll not get far by just visiting the site.
It's an old legend that in the Roman Empire Foreign religions were not allowed. It was the opposite - Romans loved foreign religions and adopted them additionally to their own gods. It would make little sense to think "Our faith must remain a secret, so let's paint it all over our walls!"
Exactly, romans had no problem with foreign religion. In case of conquers u are allowed to worship any deity u want provided that u also worship the emperor. Christians refused to worship the emperor thats why they were persecuted.
Yeah we were very much into our god and had our own beliefs from foreign religions and god. It would have been wide spread back then and we were very and still can be very superstitious. Hence the curse of thrives that modern humans still do even if their ancestors were not Roman/italic like mine
Thank you so much for this essay. I have been pondering these frescoes for years and have some questions. Are we certain that the child reading from the scroll is a boy? I don't discern any sign of male body parts, and if it is a boy, then it's apparently the only human male present in a frieze in which all other human participants are female. All descriptions of the frieze describe the child as a boy, but that question keeps nagging at me. Another question relates to the identity of the winged figure whipping the initiate. She bears a striking resemblance to the Etruscan deity Vanth, a benign goddess charged with conveying the newly departed to the underworld. The size, the wings, the boots--I'm seeing a very Vanth-like deity. Is it possible that the climax of the initiation is a "katabasis," a metaphorical descent into the underworld, and Vanth in her role as psychopomp is repelling the initiate and sending her back into this world? This sounds like it’s from left field-a hypothetical artistic syncretism based on little evidence-but the resemblance in style, imagery and technique of these frescoes to Etruscan counterparts is striking. Pompeii was in the northern extreme of Magna Graecia, the heartland of the Dionysus cult in Italy, a long way from Etruria, but what if Etruscan fresco painters occupied a role similar to the one their Tuscan descendants did during the Renaissance? My final question concerns the identity of the figure on whom Dionysus sprawls. There seems to be general agreement that she is Ariadne, but again I have to ask, in my role as buzzkill, are we certain? There is another important female personage in Dionysus' life--his mother, Semele. I might be wrong, but usually is not Ariadne portrayed in a subordinate position to Dionysus? Semele, by contrast, is usually portrayed occupying a higher position than her son, and she often drapes her arm possessively around him. There is even, mirabile dictu, an Etruscan mirror showing this very position. Jane Harrison has noted the importance of Semele to the Dionysus cult generally. Anyway, many thanks for this stimulating essay on an important work of Western art.
Thanks for your excellent questions. The best research topics are the ones that nag. We presented the common reading, what is most often taught, but with additional research these interpretations will change over time. Just one note, there are males, so long as you aren't just looking at those that are human.
The other woman not shown here is sitting on the throne perhaps a priestess or wife seems to be having no fun. Perhaps she was witness to her husband’s lustful ways
They clearly state that they come in and paint over the art pieces,...to preserve it ofcourse, yet how can one know if they took the liberty to include or exclude parts of the composition. I'm sure these paintings include perspective, and then the technique dissapears and resurfaces during the reneaisance?...🤔hmmmm
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I was there yesterday , you cannot enter the room at present but can see thru the doors/windows . Seems to be easily the best frescos in pompei .
Wonderful analysis. Thank you for the upload. Most of us will never have the opportunity to travel and view this magnificent slice of a culture. You guys are also fun to listen to!
These paintings are very extraordinary beautiful and it's very amazing that the colour is still bright even two thousands years passed 👍👍👍!
Are you from China?
Collectively, these frescoes could be argued to be the single most important survival of painting from Greco-Roman antiquity. Even though much of the iconography will doubtlessly remain mysterious, we can linger over the fine details of the figures and derive a real sense of how ladies of this time and place were dressed and adorned. The loss of most of the central figure of Ariadne (some scholars have also speculated that this could be a representation of Semele, Dionysus' mother) is regrettable, as is the draped figure just to the divine couple's left (our right), with just the green of her robe to tantalize us.
This generously uploaded video, with its attentive analysis, is the next best thing to actually being able to visit the site.
The video even is _better_ than visiting the site, at least compared with _only_ visiting the site. You can do greatly with only the video, but you'll not get far by just visiting the site.
@@HansDunkelberg1learned guides are excellent to assist interpretation of the ritual. I appreciate the anthropology sources.
@@user-mg8bb7zh9u What do you mean by "anthropology sources"?
Wow. Very beautiful and modern looking paintings.
Modern looking? Do you mean, like pop art? I'd expect more elegant lines even from _that._
wow amazing
The color pallet is very pleasing. Beautiful paintings.
Beautiful deep reds.
It's an old legend that in the Roman Empire Foreign religions were not allowed. It was the opposite - Romans loved foreign religions and adopted them additionally to their own gods. It would make little sense to think "Our faith must remain a secret, so let's paint it all over our walls!"
Exactly, romans had no problem with foreign religion. In case of conquers u are allowed to worship any deity u want provided that u also worship the emperor. Christians refused to worship the emperor thats why they were persecuted.
Yeah we were very much into our god and had our own beliefs from foreign religions and god. It would have been wide spread back then and we were very and still can be very superstitious. Hence the curse of thrives that modern humans still do even if their ancestors were not Roman/italic like mine
I’m doing a speech on this fresco. Thanks for making this! You helped loads!
Love ur voices very relaxing and captivating thank u
Ever lasting water colour! How did they last for centuries!! incredible!!
they were enveloped and preserved by the ash
Truly great
You guys sound like Carrie Brownstein and Fred Armisen, Really great thank you!
Thank you so much for this essay. I have been pondering these frescoes for years and have some questions. Are we certain that the child reading from the scroll is a boy? I don't discern any sign of male body parts, and if it is a boy, then it's apparently the only human male present in a frieze in which all other human participants are female. All descriptions of the frieze describe the child as a boy, but that question keeps nagging at me.
Another question relates to the identity of the winged figure whipping the initiate. She bears a striking resemblance to the Etruscan deity Vanth, a benign goddess charged with conveying the newly departed to the underworld. The size, the wings, the boots--I'm seeing a very Vanth-like deity. Is it possible that the climax of the initiation is a "katabasis," a metaphorical descent into the underworld, and Vanth in her role as psychopomp is repelling the initiate and sending her back into this world?
This sounds like it’s from left field-a hypothetical artistic syncretism based on little evidence-but the resemblance in style, imagery and technique of these frescoes to Etruscan counterparts is striking. Pompeii was in the northern extreme of Magna Graecia, the heartland of the Dionysus cult in Italy, a long way from Etruria, but what if Etruscan fresco painters occupied a role similar to the one their Tuscan descendants did during the Renaissance?
My final question concerns the identity of the figure on whom Dionysus sprawls. There seems to be general agreement that she is Ariadne, but again I have to ask, in my role as buzzkill, are we certain? There is another important female personage in Dionysus' life--his mother, Semele. I might be wrong, but usually is not Ariadne portrayed in a subordinate position to Dionysus? Semele, by contrast, is usually portrayed occupying a higher position than her son, and she often drapes her arm possessively around him. There is even, mirabile dictu, an Etruscan mirror showing this very position. Jane Harrison has noted the importance of Semele to the Dionysus cult generally.
Anyway, many thanks for this stimulating essay on an important work of Western art.
Thanks for your excellent questions. The best research topics are the ones that nag. We presented the common reading, what is most often taught, but with additional research these interpretations will change over time. Just one note, there are males, so long as you aren't just looking at those that are human.
Touche!@@smarthistory-art-history
Who else is here after reading David’s villa of mysteries
Awsome
What is that word at 4:48 a “Beauvoir?” Of illusion?
"bravura"
@@smarthistory-art-history awesome 👏 keep using big words. Love your videos!
The other woman not shown here is sitting on the throne perhaps a priestess or wife seems to be having no fun. Perhaps she was witness to her husband’s lustful ways
They clearly state that they come in and paint over the art pieces,...to preserve it ofcourse, yet how can one know if they took the liberty to include or exclude parts of the composition. I'm sure these paintings include perspective, and then the technique dissapears and resurfaces during the reneaisance?...🤔hmmmm
Nice
Just imagine we went from these realistic looking paintings to some weird,unrealistic,ugly looking paintings in the early medieval period..
anyone else here.. instructed by school? lol