This takedown should never be legal anywhere
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- This video discusses the Scissors Takedown, and how it causes injury, either to the ankle or the knee.
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Hey Chadi! Thanks for this breakdown. It's so important for people to get educated about it so what happened to me wouldn't happen to others. I also liked your point about this move where not giving an opportunity to tap. I certainly didn't have it. It happened so quickly and I only tapped when my bone was already broken (which is not ideal timing). Also, thank you for your kind words at the beginning of the video.
Recover well brother, you can always reach out if you need anything 🙇🏻♂️
Did the guy who did this to you get kicked out of the school?
@@nappyheadedno apparently the coaches didnt even check on him, rokas has done a video on it, check it out.
Get well soon man, love the USD series, can't wait for season two. Sorry you ran into an idiot in open mat.
Kani-basami can be done safely if you post your arm on the mat to control your weight and use you leg to take down similar to tani-otoshi. The jumping version which is being talked about is dumb.
A member of that gym said that the same guy did it to another partner soon after.
And as Rokas mentioned, the trainers and members didn't show any concern when he got injured.
I think the name of the gym should be mentioned - seriously.
Let people know which gyms can be dangerous to your health.
Agree!! Something like this should be known, so people can be careful and avoid unnecessary injuries!
Agreed.
@@Matt-jc2ml Just post it for everyone.
Yeah it should be named. I haven’t trained anything for years but letting your patrons & students get hurt by illegal techniques is ridiculous.
Maybe they might think they are protecting the one gym or trainers or whatever who maybe made an honest mistake by not reacting properly, but you’re undermining the WHOLE industry.
Now people like me have to kind of second guess the whole endeavor of training again. Violent careless people exist EVERY aspect of life…. But training in a gym with all the waivers being signed etc. is one of the last places where there apparently aren’t repercussions and IF we are not even identifying the people and gyms responsible and at a minimum letting regular MARKET forces work it out then it sounds like your just creating a venue for these people to showcase and have their violence and callousness protected.
Enough of these incidents occur and the entire industry suffers.
Im sure you could figure it out from what rokas posts publicly
"Step 1 on stopping kani basami: Don't roll with assholes" -Jordan Teaches Jiujitsu (2024)
I watched ?Jedi? doing it on his channel (I believe) I was horrified, he did not do it correctly and rolled the guys knee/ankle
Easy to say, not easy to apply in an competition, an open mat or a new guy at your academy.
If you followed that rule, there wouldn't be anyone to train with.
@@therealdestructicus False. Stop drinking Lead paint chip smoothies.
You don’t always know who you’re rolling with
One of the few banned throws that I agree with banning.
Even if Uke survives Kani-basami, you can see it was a close call 99% of the time.
Even the technical demonstration in this video looks somewhat sketchy to me, although I'm by no means a grappling expert.
Im a judo brown belt and the technical demo made me queasy
@@kullenberg
Since it is that dangerous, it needs to be praticed when traning for real-life combat. Obviously, without soarring.
@@omarmirza9957 OK buddy, you try kanibasami, I will try a sharp knife. Since it's life and death combat I am sure you won't mind.
@@huwhitecavebeast1972 I think it should be trained in a technical way with the two guys aware of what they're doing but definitely not in sparring even less on an unaware sparring partner
The name of the person and the gym/dojo should both be revealed.
Lmao
@@bobanmilisavljevic7857 Hurr hurr hurr!!!
No. Stop this BS that doxxing people is appropriate.
What happened is honestly unacceptable. The dude who did this should be ashamed
Should be punished
There’s always a try-hard guy in every gym, I avoid most of them, especially if I don’t know them well, for safety reasons. I have a day job to go back to the next morning, I don’t ever want to have a life altering injury and lose my livelihood because some idiot wants to win a roll at the gym.
And pay for the surgery and medical expenses
And pay for the surgery and medical expenses
Arrested, you mean.
I’ve had people perform that on me on open mat events on multiple occasions generally these people were visitors from other gyms who came to do a shared class, I never got injured but that’s because I trained judo since I was 4 years old so I know how to immediately fall down safely if someone applies that, and I STILL had plenty of close calls.
This move should only be taught for self defense and technical purposes and NEVER should be used under any circumstances on any sort of competition or sparring practice.
NEVER.
How do u sit on it with them also pulling on you?
@@cloudmaster182The move forces you to sit down, you only get injured if you try to fight it. Treat it like a rocking chair and you'll be okay, or even better, keep your legs bent and staggered and they can't even attempt it
@@micaylapresley💯💯💯
I was two weeks into my jujutsu journey when a blue belt decide to try and do this crap to me. Thank goodness, I had 16 years in the USA wrestling pipeline training year around. When he jumped, I jumped and all 260lbs of my bowling ball shape ass landed on top of him shoulder first. Apparently popped a couple ribs, And was out for almost 5 months. I felt bad at the time, but this has really solidified my decision of not letting it happen!
It's not even a good self defense move.
Damn, Rokas is a good guy...I hope he recovers well
He is a good guy but maybe he will have some sympathy for Ramsey Dewey now.
@@willspeakman2461 Rokas said something bad about ramsey?
@@dzen_dzenkazan8050 Rokus hosted the Self defense thing in Australia. Ramsey got a knee injury from it and nobody apologised. He most likely could of sued the organisation and won a massive payout.
@@willspeakman2461 oh, well, rokas at least didn't say or did anything, unlike the self defence instructor there
@@willspeakman2461 That was a dumb accident though, someone slipped and fell on him from a height. If you perform Kani Basami you are just fine with injuring uke.
I saw Rokas' video. I have no problem training dangerous moves, but giving the move the respect it deserves and making sure your training partner agrees before you start should be paramount. Rokas having no clue that his partner could attempt this was absolutely wrong. Add to fact his gym was unprepared and no one stopped to help him is absolutely disgusting.
Kani Basami is legal in all BJJ gym. BJJ just exclude body slam, punhing and kicking. Anything allowed even if it was banned in Judo. Maybe you can go try some Kawazu Gake.
@m5a1stuart83 Flying scissors is extremely dangerous. Even the method I was taught and use is still dangerous even though it is safer. I never throw it unless I am training with someone who knows I may attempt it and knows how to protect themselves should I try. I know BJJ allows things that are banned in Judo, and while I have griped about some of the banned things in Judo, others I fully understand. I'm personally of the opinion that techniques banned because of danger should still be practiced, but it must be done with the utmost respect for them and the people you are training with.
It's illegal in IBJJF
Its not dangerous because its effective its dangerous because you dont have control of how much you hurt your opponent after you are in position. Armbars can do similar damage but only when you choose to complete them and they give you enough control to let your opponent surrender
@@m5a1stuart83Lol. You've messaged every single bjj gym to find that out? Bjj isn't a protected name, I could open a bjj gym today.
Anyways most tournaments exclude scissor takedowns in most divisions.
Thank you for this video- another friend of mine received a career-ending injury because of an over-zealous dojo training partner. Don’t break your training partners. We all want another day to train….
You should make sure that over-zealous guy has his own injuries to reflect upon. 🤷🏻♂️
I unironically think people who do this move should be sued; the person performing the move knows the high risk for serious injury to the opponent and shows blatant disregard for their wellbeing. Actions need to have consequences.
I agree but which rule apply on an open mat ? Ibjjf ? Adcc ? Something else ? Do the People going to an open mat sign a paper to agree on certain rules ?
If you want to do it safely, just don't tag on the gi. People in the comments, and i myself can say that's it's done safely all the time in capoeira by not grabbing the guy you throw by the hand or clothes and putting your hands on the ground instead. Also, receiver should not let his knee collapsing inward, as stated in the video
I agree, if the class has been warned not to do it.
@@alexkozliayev9902 Yes posting hand on the ground is good, same for flying triangle etc.
@@JCBPARISPARIS Common law negligence will cover the law suit, Law of the land still applies everywhere, don't need any official rules.
Kano- basami is simply a technique that should be taught to use in self defense. It should not be use in sparring or competition. Beware of meatheads in dojos. All banded techniques should be taught and practice as self defense only.
This is a great point
I seen a white belt got leg locked in his first rolling session when he was paired up with a purple belt. Meat head sparring partner also injured him
I think the uses of Kani are very limited in self defense. First you would need to *know* that it was 1 on 1. If he has a friend you've just put yourself in field goal position😢
@@Bristan I’m a 60 year old Black man from crown heights Brooklyn. My neighborhood was feature in two Hollywood block busters , Ghost and Samuel Jackson’s SHAFT. My hood was featured because it was widely known for being very dangerous. Bruce Lee or Chuck Norris could never defeat multiple knowledgeable assailants in a bar fights. Self defense is all about survival not being an invincible fighting machine. I’m a Seido Juku karate ka with who studied and admire judo. It’s my opinion that judo is superior to BJJ for self defense. Throws and take downs are very devastating to opponents who don’t know how to land.
@lannelbishop3668 I live less than 20 miles from Crown Heights. I've studied judo for 15+ years, along with some other arts. I agree with you that Judo is a better self defense art than BJJ, if taught correctly. It is that very reason I wouldn't use Kani in self defense if I had other options. Kani is a sacrifice throw, you end up on the ground too. That is fine if you Incapacitated the opponent, or if he doesn't have friends. If either one is false, you just put yourself in a bad position, where BJJ would have been more useful... basically I agree with everything you said with the caveat that I wouldn't use this technique.
I have seen injuries from this over the years ( Jujutsu / Judo). We learn it for combat use ( and used it in the 90's for Sport Jujutsu) but NO longer for sport. We wish Rokas a speedy recovery 🙏
BJJ has a total disregard for the safety of their practicioners. So many tecniques that are banned in Judo and even Sambo that can be done in BJJ is ridiculous. That guy is fucked up for life.
Go do judo then safety guy
That's why the only BJJ I've learned is Gracie Jiujitsu combatives and never got into the sport. Most people who are into sports BJJ eventually end up with permanent injuries. I'd rather just know enough GJJ to help me survive a fight that goes to the ground and end it at that.
@@bobanmilisavljevic7857 what do you mean ? even sparring with a agressive partner or not Judo is still 10 time safer than BJJ anyday
@@bobanmilisavljevic7857 thos is exactly what he's talking about
Thanks for throwing all of BJJ under the bus?
Honestly, I have trained at like 10 different bjj gyms and ALL of them have this move banned.
I am sorry you are afraid of someone exposing your weakness in grappling by being ankle picked, fireman carried, single-legged, double-legged, flying triangled, or flying armbarred. Yet that's not a reason to call our martial-art and sport, "too dangerous".
1:57
Exactly. Jiu jitsu guys should be trained better in understanding how dangerous takedowns can be. Just as they should do with leg locks.
There needs to be a separate class with an experienced instructor to teach the do’s and do nots with take downs.
Also Rokas’s injury happen in an open mat. That not really the place to be have at takedownfest not just because of inexperience but also because if you guys are not careful you could end up landing on do dudes just rolling.
Yeah the gym near me has a "wrestling for BJJ" class with a separate instructor which focuses more on the stand-up to ground part than just the ground.
Kani basami claims another one; damn, said it once and I’ll say it again; kani basami is the only technique where you’re better off someone successfully hittimg it on you than messing it up
The problem with this takedown is the hand grip.
You can see scissors takedown (Tesoura) in Capoeira and it is one of the most popular takedowns you see in Roda(capoeira "ring") i have seen it also in other striking arts too and % with injuries is pretty low compared to grappling arts.
The problem is that when they hold for collar or neck and when people who are trying to do this technique just jump on somebody and wait until they fall... and then bad things happen.
I do not trying to offend or defend anyone here. I am also after knee reconstruction (broken ACL) and I do not recommend anyone to get knee injuries (seriously...don't do it guys! Heh).
The problem is that some people have no chill or too big ego or just do NOT think...
But yes. This technique shouldn't be legal because it is dangerous.
I feel the same way. Cung Le used this technique in many of his Sanda matches.
A dance routine is different from a fight. Someone did this to Tyler Spangler, posted with his hand, but the hand slipped and Tyler got injured.
@@MrCmon113 yeah...the takedown is dangerous either way. Bo Nickal said that Gordon Ryan tore his MCL/ACL(I forget which one exactly) when he used this against him.
People can make Tani Otoshi dangerous.
Unless you have Kyuzo Mifune levels of skill then attempting Kani Basami in Randori or Shihai is reckless.
In which way can one make Taniotoshi dangerous?
I am currently trying it out and want to add it to my moveset, but i think it is fairly safe.
@@猫踏んじゃった-r5w Mainly if you try do it head on and try to get around your opponent... but miss the angle and wrench their leg instead of pulling them down.
Its fairly safe if you use it as a turn throw counter.
@@猫踏んじゃった-r5w I would recommend looking up Shintaro Higashi's video on Tani Otoshi. He goes over how to do it safely in a kata form, and also shows how it can get dangerous with a minor positioning change, particularly of the sort that can happen in the heat of the moment in a competitive match or hard sparring/rolling.
Tani Otoshi I have seen responsible for more injuries than any other throw in competition and randori. Often the leg ends up too high and gets behind the knee when they drop their weight. Horrible knee injuries. I’ve cut it out of my moveset after a few near misses and focus on clean ashi waza in my counters
@@猫踏んじゃった-r5w it can be perfectly safe!
Just make sure that you don't touch their legs and don't do an excessive circular motion.
The principal of the technique is applying your weight to the direction of the Uke's back. The leg slide is executed order to complete your sacrificial fall and not as a way to block the opponent's legs.
Make sure you practice it for some time in Nage Komi and that you perform it properly.
In capoeira they do a safer variaton of this, its called "tesoura", scissor in brazilian portuguese. In judo the judokas jump and they land diagonally puting all the weight on your opponent's knee. The capoeira variation they jump sideways in perpendicular angle, puting the hands on the floor, the hips are used to block the opponent's movimentation, and then they do the twist usign the legs. The weight distribution Its way better, not putting too much weight you your opponets knee , and by putting one or two hands on the floor makes your leg twist movement stronger.
In Hapkido they use the same variation safely. It is applied when the opponent is sideways and in most times one hand touches the ground to guide the fall smoothly.
Yes, I trained capoeira for years and applied and took this takedown several times and never seen anyone injuried. I think the main problem with the judo/bjj version is the gi grip that allows the movement to start higher and thus having a downward movement putting the weight on the opponents leg, while in capoeira is a more horizontal movement.
If you see the submission of Ryo Chonan against Anderson Silva looks a lot like the capoeira version, I think is because the lack of gi grip.
Yes, in all my years of capoeira (decade+), I've never seen someone injured by tesoura and came to the same conclusion. Even posted about the technical differences on Chadi's original kani basami video. I feel for Rokas.
@@boachan888 in my taekwondo days we learned a flying scissor and set it up from a "missed" side kick. Always with great emphasis on turning the hips over and actually scissoring the legs.
Sounds a lot like Scissor takedown from Sanda.
1000% agree. Kani Basami is very dangerous.
Thank you for making this video.
I can honestly say, it changed my perspective. I grew up in martial arts and kani basami, or scissors takedown, as we called it, was one of my favorite throws. When it was outlawed in Judo (I cross-trained quite a bit, I didn't learn it by the English name in Judo), I was outraged. I was warned of the dangers when I learned it as something that can happen if you end up sideways, nearly perpendicular to your partner. From that perspective, a lot of moves can be dangerous if you to them completely wrong and try to force them. I continued practicing it and using it outside of competition and in other sports. I have never seen a breakdown like this, showing how easy it is for a well-intended, well-trained practitioner to cause injury. I will no longer argue for the use of this move and will no longer use it, except in explicitly structured training and will take the safety precautions you advised in those cases.
I hope Rokas has a swift recovery. He has been a continual source of inspiration for me since his first video testing the efficacy of Aikido against MMA.
I think it was done intentionally. Hear me out, Rokas said when it happened nobody in the gym acted the least bit concerned other than his friend even though he was screaming in pain. I think the gym owners set this up or it came as a directive somewhere higher in the bjj community because bjj has had such a poor showing in the ultimate self defense challenge. I say this as a member of a Bjj gym. Bjj has always been marketed as the ultimate form of unarmed self defense and rokas putting out videos showing the contrary may be screwing with peoples potential for money so they decided to “teach him a lesson”.
Scary technique, thankfully not in Sumo.
I feel Kani Basami should NEVER be used in competition or sparring, however if you are literally trying to break someones leg, excellent technique. The one and ONLY time I've seen this live was when my sensei did it as a demo on someone (it was his birthday present) so Sensei did this on a willing and UNRESISTING opponent and it looked extremely graceful and powerful, however you could see how wrong anything could go if he was in the slightest bit off.
In my mid 30s I dropped training Muay Thai in favor of Filipino Martial Arts.
The aspect of fighting for your life against a weapon chamged my view on "combat" sports training. Because training weapons means you have the skill training broken up into safer aspects I saw the wisdom of the traditional arts training.
But many proponents of combat sports forget that the emphasis is more on "sport" than combat.
meanwhile we can carry guns here in america, obviously a far superior martial art to learn.
@@newerest1 cool, my carry pieces are a Sig and an S&W. Though not applicable for all situations.
I got my blue belt in a gym like the one Rokas got injured in. They are brutal over there, and I got injured a lot (usually minor), even with decades of other martial arts experience. I'd never tell any beginner to go in there. I just did it because it was literally a couple of blocks away and felt that I could protect myself from the worst injuries. The only good thing about training in those schools is that it is a lot more like a street fight, and you learn accordingly how to deal with these people. Jumping guard, scissor takedowns, cranking, ripping submissions... You are with the sharks and you have to protect yourself. Be very careful who you trust with your training, especially if you are new to the mats.
Tesouro de Costas in Capoeira seems to be done without so many of these issues. Maybe it's the way capoeristas are taught to escape it! Just some extra information for everyone.
Rather than the way to escape, i think the problem lies on the grip. I know traditional jujutsu and judo, while my little brother done silat. I just look up tesouro of capoeira, and its done the same way in silat, which is the hands are supposed to be free, compared to judo which the hands are used to grip/grab the opponent's gi. This caused a mor of imbalance towards the receiver. Whereas tesouro and guntingan ( silat's scissor throw ) causing the receiver to fall forward or backward, judo's kani basami causes the receiver to fall backwards, forwards, and sideways. The sideways fall is usually the common injuries, as far as i know.
What i'm trying to say is, if you done tesouro while grabbing your receiver's shirts, then maybe he will get the injuries too. So its not about escape, more like how the techniques supposed to be used in certain martial arts, because grappling arts like judo, jujutsu, sambo etc, mainly uses grip 😊
Most of us in Jiu-Jitsu can't even do (or defend against) the Tani Otoshi properly, much less the Kani Basami.
Kanu basami and jumping guard…. I still cannot understand how people do these things. Devastating injuries result almost 99% of the time
You want to ban jumping guard too? This world is getting so soft
@@bobanmilisavljevic7857the vast majority of paying customers aren’t professionals or Olympians, we practice martial arts for its health benefits, supportive community, and arguably self defense. One of the most terrifying experiences I’ve had involving BJJ was someone performing a scissor takedown on me, both of our body weight on my knee, falling without control. There’s no opportunity to tap, there’s no way to break fall or post my arm out to save my knee. I have a normal day job to go back to after training, I never want my knee to explode because of a hobby, and luckily my knee wasn’t injured. If you want someone to perform a scissor takedown or jump guard on you, it’s your choice, just don’t force it on everyone else.
No, from what I’ve seen, nothing bad happens at least 95% of the time but of course that
@@bobanmilisavljevic7857 Why are you jumping guard lil bro, stand and do a judo throw or wrestle
No, they don't. Lol. If that was the case, no one would do it and it wouldn't be allowed anywhere.
Wow, they train this in Japanese Jujitsu quite a bit, but I've never seen it with the arm trapped, vicious move.
This makes me think of Ninjutsu or any other bogus "martial arts" that claim their techniques are too deadly for competition.
Here it's extremely dangerous technique in a martial art that constantly put itself in test and resistance through competition.
Update:
Rokas got this because of BJJ.
Well, that's the reason why I don't buy with BJJ cz Judo has CLEAR LINES of banned and allowed techniques.
Also, BJJ usually roamed by nasty tori(s) who'd like to torture the newbies with their gddamn dangerous movement.
Kani Basami can now be categorised as Japanese Jujutsu takedown as it's LETHAL.
there's a different between the term Judo n Jujutsu tho
I can't help but feel like some people target him for his status as a content creator and this might have been someone's perfect opportunity to really hurt him.
the same with jumping guard, "jita kyoei": dont be an ass to your training partners
It should be legal in competition... but, that training partner is just a sadist. You never do that in the gym, ever. Not even once. Even drilling it is to be done and slowly. I feel bad for MAJ, got concussed a few times in Boxing/Muay Thai and it's a bit rough. Not being able to walk is worse.
I mean the result speaks for itself. You have another martial artist who was on their way to blackbelt and now he probably can't perform the sport well enough to continue. So you have one person less who is able to fight properly. What have you achieved then with your "bad ass martial arts training"? Aside from the emotional points you made that have way more value: A pain free life in age. Playing with you kids and remaining capable to support your family. Situations like these are the Darwin Award of martial arts.
Who cares about a blacl belt if you can't even stop a takedown
@@bobanmilisavljevic7857 yeah, I mean talking about a healthy martial artist. I have a friend who has two torn ACLs and claims "stand up is useless I take the guy out and choke him". I usually don't say anything to not disrespect him, but truth is one or two kicks to the knees and you "submitted" just from "standing position" he looks down on.
Kanami basami is a dangerous throw it's banned for a reason
This should only be allowed purple belt and above in competition, and coaches need to make clear what moves are not allowed in the gym.
I never knew the dangers. I trained wingchun, jujitsu, catch as catch can, hop gar, and tai chi. I saw a mma fighter, kung lee; use it easily and effectively in his matches; normally with a fake side kick, off to the opponents side. After that I praticed it and used it sparring and playing around. It was very effective. Luckily I never hurt any of my training partners with it. Thanks for the great content Chadi; really like your breakdowns, and understanding; keeps me sharp and learning more. Thank you
And this is why I don't spar from standing with people I don't know, and I don't continue sparring at all with people who treat an open mat like a comp or street fight. I get the mentality of "testing" yourself, but there's also lots of flaws in that mentality. 1) The person you're sparring with most likely isn't "testing" themselves in the same way, so you're not getting the feedback you would from a comp or real fight and 2) people are training, they're usually trying to work on skills and KEEP training after. People that don't get that are just reckless a&&holes, and I will stop a spar if I feel like either I'm going to get injured or the other guy will. That being said, it's taken me some time to have the balls to do that, and I hope everyone can one day find the balls to just tell other people off.
You mean you are scared of wrestling?
Kani Basami, head butts, fish hooks, spine and neck cranks.
All the banned moves are the most effective to save your life.
For competition/training 100 percemt not allowed.
Shadow striking.
Practice with dummies.
Visualization.
If attacked, I will defend myself without prejudice.
I had an overzealous young blackbelt try a scissor sweep like this on me in a Kung Fu sparring session long ago and hyperextended my knee. That is the most pain I've ever felt in my life and I walked with a cane for a month. I was lucky to avoid surgery. So no, this is not something to use in anything other than a serious self defense situation where you would be legally permitted to cause great bodily harm to another person.
Every throw has some degree of risk. But the risk with every throw is not equal. Kani Bassami simply isn’t worth it.
Gyms should make people sign paperwork they will not attempt this move on people.
What if you get hurt by a different move, will you ban that too? Will you eventually ban all moves and train hugging practice instead?
@@bobanmilisavljevic7857 Nope , unlike kani basami, all of the other common moves are fine because they are fully controllable so even if you got yourself into a unlucky situation you can still control the damage by yourself. Kani basami's risk is not fully controllable, that why it should be banned in every ways
Kani Basami is baned from competition and should be banned from free mat randori always.
This being said, it is a flawless technique in self defence. Especialy against kickbocksers and karateka. If they want to full contact body you into the hospital, say no more, Kani Basami is the ultimate uno-reverse card on them.
Besides that, do not use it.
I hope Rochas makes a full recovery.
I don’t like it for self defense either. It’s a sacrifice throw and self defense situations tend to take place on concrete. Also, if it doesn’t destroy the persons leg then the follow up ground fighting position is a dubious leg entanglement.
Its a stupid move. Kickboxers and karateka are just as vulnerable to a tackle or footsweep as any Kani Basami.
The difference being you can practice those moves thousands of times with relative safety. You won't be doing hard Kani Basami's with that intensity.
@@MatthewNguyen-zx3de If you are up against a kickboxer/karateka, not in competition/free mat, you want the thread neutralised.
When they legchop you, it is not to tickle you, but to criple you.
So a leg sheep, or 'tripping your oponent will hardly slow them down, not stop them. This is where you have trained several technieques to pull your oponent down come in. then and there adding a Kani Basami is actualy a very natural and thereby simple move to execute.
It is actualy as easy to execute as a Tomoe Nage, but then from the side. As Kane Basami can also be done by you roling to the side and then, fromp the ground executing the scizer.
Once more, do not use in regular competition or free mat, but to blatantly ignore the technique alse means to ignore all defences you have against it and for me more importantly: You would not have it in your repertuoire, your bundle of techniques when it mathers when attacked.
@@hendrikmoons8218 Does the concept of throw, pin and submit but come to your mind when we're talking about stopping a fight? A judoka has enough ways to neutralise a striker on the ground with ease.
Its not even a sure thing to rip someone's legs with Kani Basami- your opponent could well just fall right over and now you're in a weird leg entanglement position where you have no real control over the opponent. If you had leg locks it might be fine but those haven't been in judo for ages.
Again the problem is that getting side on with someone is easier said than done and kinda pointless when you can catch them head on. A harai goshi, hell a morote gari is more than enough.
@@MatthewNguyen-zx3de How far does 'self defence' go for you?
If you are up against 3 oponents of which one is truly comited to cause harm and that one has a knife.... well gently sweeping him while he be stabing is off the table for me. It might not for you, but that be you.
In escalation of violence, other tools are alaowed to defend yourselve. Even in America, where firearms are overrepresented, not every selfdefence situation warents poping out the ye gun and blasting away at your would be oponent. See Carl Ritenhaus... He did not shout down everyone, just the ones that threathened his life/wellbeing.
Having techniques like Kani Basami in your self defence toolbox is awesome, do not use on open mat.
Not every self defence situation involves someones drunk uncle Billybob, sometimes it may go up to a knife armed crackjunky...
I am currently recovering from my second ACL surgery (two months out), and it sucks so hard, I don't think I will go back to doing juijitsu. I will buy a grappling dummy and practice at home ☠️.
For my brown belt in Japanese Jim Hutus I needed to perform this techniques as quickly as possible and my mate wasn’t allowed to just fall, he had to fall through the technique completely. My black belt master already told me that this is the most dangerous (throw) technique we have and he was even to afraid to perform it on me, even though he performed every dirty technique that caused a lot of pain on me because I doesn’t feel much pain since birth. It was really hard to learn it and he told me and my mate that we should just use this technique in realize combat against strong enemies and never in training.
There are more practical throws/takedowns that are easier to accomplish and look just as impressive. There should be a sign in all gyms saying not to do it.
Honestly this. For all the glamour people put on this as a flashy forbidden move... its not really great. Even its ability to injure people is unreliable.
Kani basami is dangerous,this technique is banned in all martial art, also bjj, i think is good for playing slow.
I hate that throw. Also the valley drop throw.
Get well soon.
This one is banned at my Dojo. I learned the "Scorpion Mortal Kombat" variant first long ago.
It's pretty common in the WJJF
What's the counter to kana basami? I remember Masahiko Kimura trained the counter because his future opponent was an expert at doing it.
The counter to scissors is rock. Seriously, I would also be interested in hearing the answer to your question.
Its honestly not a super move, its fairly tricky to pull off. The counter is more about keeping your opponent in front of you and not giving them a ai-yotsu side to side fight.
Can't speak on a judo/bjj counter but one we use in capoeira is to simply turn towards the opponent, often they'll just slide off. Has to be caught early though and may not be possible in judo/bjj because of the grips. There's others but difficult to describe through text.
Thanks for the info about counter moves.
ruclips.net/video/a-ou9C8DL1Q/видео.html
I immediately thought of you when I saw Rokas's video about his injury because you have made multiple videos about how dangerous this move is and how it should be avoided.
It's great your highlighting yet again how important it is to consider the safety of your uke. We should all keep highlighting it until people actually do it.
cannot agree more, does not belong in tournaments.
Works great for street fight
I have first hand witnessed this move being done to someone in my Judo class last year and the person's knee was gone. It scared everyone in the gym.
Thank you Chadi, for spreading this message. This move needs to be made aware and the damage it causes.
I had kani-basami performed on me when practicing taekwondo of all things, and while I didn't get seriously injured, my knee was busted for several weeks during which I couldn't train at all. I ended up quitting that dojang.
May Rokas recovered soon..thanks for the video Chadi...this kani basami should be illegal by all means
Well, there goes the Journey of Rokas, may he be remembered as the humble aikido master😞.
No but seriously, you don't recover from knee fractures, he probably could never train again without hurting his knee at the most minimum pressure aplied, hell he probably can't even do squats anymore after this.
Kani Basami (translating roughly to Scissor Throw or Flying Scissors) is an illegal technique in competitive judo and has been banned from competition.
There are other techniques in judo which have been banned from competition, but are still taught in judo clubs/schools... Kani Basami however is often a throw that is strictly forbidden and never taught.
It is illegal because of the high risk of injuring the opponent. At the end of the day when it comes to grappling-based combat sports, the goal is to win the match, and while competitors are using techniques that have violent heritage, the goal is to not injure your opponent. Accidents do happen in competition, yes, but Kani Basami was too great of a risk. Basically, Kani Basami is a technique that is easy to screw up, and the results can be disastrous.
I wish MartialArtsJourney all the best with their recovery and I am sorry to hear of their injury.
If you do a sport, then you could ban it, if you do a martial art then you shouldn’t ban it. BJJ is already watered down a lot from Catch Wrestling, a lot of basic techniques are not taught ( top wrist lock bs V lock for example, or all the shin locks).
What do you think about wakare recently? I think we see some injuries before it gets banned.
what I really hace is how he describes that even when he was screaming on pain, nobody went to help him, everybody kept roññing as if nothing happened. the same happened to my in a bjj dojo, at this point I just believe bjj is the most toxic community in martial arts
For people saying "I see this all the time in silat" etc. No offense but have you seen Judokas? Do you realize high level Judo athletes have a much greater ability to hurt people. The competion is more intense and you are facing incredible athletes. People got/get injured in Judo more because the level of power, athletic ability and high stakes are all present. Also many more practitioners worldwide to see data on injuries.
If you have 1% knowledge of take downs as a "juijitsu guy" you are either new or seriously need to switch gyms.
Play shitty games, win shitty prizes. Injuries happen when you spar. Sometimes you die when you get out your car. Everyone is an adult and knows the risk.
Unpopular opinion here, but I think there are people who use this technique on purpose. They are just bullies and they get off on hurting people. If somebody is learning these techniques to hurt other individuals, I hope they meet a real bad ass on the street because nobody in this world is infallible.
L
It sounded like he was in a gladiator school where everyone was a slave, learning to fight so they could achieve freedom in the arena. 2:23 "you have a responsibility toward your training partner" ...these guys didn't have a single flying cluck for a man from their dojo screaming in pain. The thing they did wasn't a normal human response, most people would help a stranger, let alone a familiar training partner with whom you are exchanging sweat.
And don't get me started on the trainer/coach of the dojo...he's at fault as much as the douche that performed the technique.
This technique is just so bad.. Yeah it CAN work but if you attack from the wrong angle you essentially sit down on your opponents knee and fuck him up. if the opponent moves you sit down on his knee.. If you have too much momentum forward you sit down on his knee.. if you don't know how to do it properly you sit down on his knee..
Oddly enough this move is very common in capoeira.
Everybody should stay away from that gym at all costs. I am super afraid of this career ending moves. Poor Rokas!
Unless it’s self defense this move needs to be made illegal.
Good self defense move when in danger, but not sustainable for resistance/ competitive training. People can train with dangerous weapons but not train to hurting yourself or others. I think the best advice said “worse it part of jujistu is uncontrolled body weight movement.”
This takedown is more dangerous in Jiu Jitsu and Judo because of the Tatami mat surface, it's especially dangerous in wrestling yet not nearly as dangerous in CAMBO and it's all for the same reason.
Jiu Jitsu and Judo have a tatami mat surface that provides a lot of friction while wrestlers wear shoes that have a gripping surface on their soft slick mats and that provides a lot of friction... it's this friction that doesn't allow the foot to slide out and that is what causes the knee damage.
In Cambo AKA "Sambo" the shoes have a slick leather bottom plus the surface of the mat is slick like all surfaces used for wrestling... tatami mats have incredible friction while slick mats coupled with the wrestling shoe literally stick Like Glue allowing the phenomenally fast action we see in wrestling meanwhile in the sport of Cambo the Slick leather sole of the shoe coupled with the slick soft surface of the wrestling mat allows the foot to slip out and not fold over into the all familiar pattern we see where serious knee injuries occur
I thought it was a Jiu-jitsu move tbh and also people wanted Jon Jones JKD Oblique Kick to be banned in the UFC but that hasn't happened
He says the taxpayers will pay for everything and there will be no consequences for the guy who did it or the school. If you don't want this happening, hold people accountable for doing it.
It's great for when you want to do damage and hurt your opponent, definitely not a good technique to do on your partners in the gym, probably good for mma depending how dubious your morals are.
I guess it's good I don't think if a technique is legal before using it on the street. This is what happens when people try borrowing things from other systems that were meant to mame and dislocate. Plus, they're doing it wrong.
Honestly, I'm truly confused as to how grappling has this problem. This is a very common takedown in capoeira and I've never heard of someone being injured because of this. I would think that a grappling MA would have this down.
It’s technically illegal in IBJJF and ADCC.
I’m an old Judoka, I do BJJ today with my sons. I always get the feeling, it’s as if BJJ has lost itself as the sport is growing.
I feel like some jujitsu practitioners want to be wrestlers( but not call it wrestling) or get closer to its Judo origins( but only in secret). The problem is… trying dangerous moves in which no one in the community has ever practiced or even knows how to counter leads to injuries.
I wrestled all the way to high school. But, we drill our moves thousands of times( giving and receiving). I tone everything down when rolling. People have lives off the mats.
Even with a purely pragmatic view, it is a garbage technique.
Even if you don't blow someone's leg, like some gung-ho jackass.
It exposes your knees and ankles to joint locks. And puts you in a lousy position for defense or attack.
Kanibasami is prohivited in judo since 1980 after scores and scores of knees snaps. There is no way to do it properly, the last straw was the legendary bout in all Japan Judo opposing Endo AND Yamashita, trying it became a penal offense ; ruclips.net/video/glwYurrthcc/видео.html
I think 90-95% of practitioners will disagree with me but for better safety the same as for driving a car for you need a license, you would need a "bjj certificate" when going to a competition or open mat. This certificate will assume you know the rules of this sport (know the forbidden techniques -that depends on the belt-) and you know the basic defense. Too many practitioners do anything on a mat, I remember a complete new white belt guy trying to apply a leg lock on me... His first day. Plus some practionners think an injury has just short term consequences, which is not true.
my stance is that kani-basami is an important move to have in your arsenal, but it is not suitable for hard rolling.
I only ever use it in a highly-controlled settings where my sparring partner has the time to bail out, or outside of the dojo if I don't want the other guy to ever walk again
As a Black Belt with over a decade of experience, I couldn't agree more with most of your points. This is a technique that should never be executed in the gym during live rounds. Its simply to dangerous & happens to quickly. The only place this technique is acceptable in my opinion, would be a high level competition with Professional Athletes who know what they signed up for & understand the risks a technique like this presents.
A lot of people join BJJ because they think it's the safe martial art where you can fight without anyone getting hurt. Yet it has the highest probability of getting seriously injured and the type of injuries are the worst. You can do light sparring with kickboxing, getting a few bops to the noggin is infinitely safer than crippling your body. Everyone I've ever met who's done BJJ for 10+ years always has a laundry list of injuries from it. It's not worth it.
Kabi basame is forbiden in judo since the 1980's after hundred abd hundred kees snaps the last straw was the accident during the legendary bout in all Japan judo in 1980 opposing Yamashita and Endo best judo eavy players ever:
ruclips.net/video/glwYurrthcc/видео.html
applying that is simply an offense and the club should be closed down with prosecution especially by people in bjj totaly strangers to takedown
There's about 10 different versions of this takedown and banning them all because the jumping scissors sometimes hurts people especially guys that aren't used to grappling like Roka is an overreaction... it's very well understood and has been used for many years and Freestyle Wrestling and Sambo
ruclips.net/video/d_wYX8uifo4/видео.htmlsi=ULrd91HH9UmP8ucY
I wanted to learn some grappling skills and joined a Judo and Jiu Jutsu club. In one of the first standing randoris, some dumb-ass brown belt took me (white belt) down so fast, forcefull and in a way that some ligaments around my knee almost ripped. At that day I decided that learning self-defense techniques I'll almost surely never need is not worth an almost guaranteed injury that never fully heals.
If sparring gets dangerous in your club, if even one student is a dangerous a-hole during sparring, join another club!
I know what gym he was training at (A-force bjj Vilnius) and safe to say I will never visit that gym. I grew up in Lithuania as a kid. I remember what kind of people train there and heard numerous times that EGO in that gym is of the charts.
I do understand this scissor takedown resulted in a high number of injuries in any grappling or MMA tournaments.
But I do believe it happened because not many athlere are familiar with it, so they don't train the technique properly, either as the "doer" or the "receiver". As you can see, in Pencak Silat, there are so many practioners apply this technique during practice as well as tournaments, and there are not many reported got injuried because of this technique.
We can compare to German Suplex, it is a very powerful technique, and super dangerous. But because of so many athlete are familiar with it, so they can adjust and make less injuries during the practice or tournament.
We don't poke people's eyes even for practice. This technique should be regarded as disability inducing.
So, there is a technique that’s too dangerous to practice. We used to practice this all the time. No one got hurt, but throwing was part of the art, and we were expecting that technique. We didn’t do it in sparing. Some guy did that to me visiting from another school and kind of twisted my knee. It was sloppy. I showed him the correct was to do it, and told him we do not allow that technique in sparring here. After I demonstrated on him, he understood why. It’s really not that good of a technique against MMA trained people. That’s why it’s so unexpected. If it doesn’t work, you are in a very bad position. Thanks for the video.
The problem with martial arts today is the ignorance of the masters who got the knowledge of how Kanibasami works and doesn't pass it forward to the students, don't show the reasons of why it's prohibited, they just want to people to follow it blindly.
Then you will get a lot of curious people who liked the visual appeal of the technique, which is beautiful when correctly executed, who will try it over and over again util hurt someone and get traumatized. (exactly me).
A great example of how a grappling master can avoid this for the rest of his life is just sending this exact video to all his students, and everytime someone talk about kanibasami he instantly shows it.
With all do respect Rokas doesn't take Martial arts seriously. Something like this was bound to happen.
If someone tries a kani basami, full power on me in a training environment, that person is making a statement that you are training fodder to them. I handle those people accordingly in the gym.
I really do not understand how this technique is dangerous. Probably because i have never practiced any kind of grapling.