Melee players that have incredible hard work ethics : - Armada , HE PRETTY MUCH GRIND WITH CPUs all days for 8-12 hours, and grind the PUFF MATCH UP with his brothers and Abu for SO LONG - M2K went frame by frame, grinding for hours , grinds for the "best option", and studies the crap out of each Smash game - Leffen is a lab monster, the guy grinds the crap out of been optimal, and keeps bringing new stuff for the meta - Hungrybox pretty much have to balance out school and Smash tournaments back on the day, and he even hired a coach to help him push beyond - PPMD practice and grinds a lot, he analyzes every situation, he make popular the "shadow boxing", and he also was balancing school and Melee - KDJ started from the very bottom, and he money match all the top players to get good, and it payoff big time for him - Zain been a doc kid, have been climbing the ranks to get to the very top since 2013, and he has been pushing the Marth meta - Hax$ have grind and work so hard, that his hands almost die. Good thing "The Box" can help him continue his Melee career. - Swedish Delight goes to medical school, and as many other top Melee players, he has been balancing school and tournament and still come on Top - Llod is also another top player that goes to medical school, and have been putting the work to be at the Top while balancing it - Ken pioneer Marth to the very top, putting countless hours on the character to discover everything about him, and grinding all kind of match ups - Ibdw make those "galactic jumps" with his hard work, he went from been at "Top 100" to "Top 10" in only 2 years. Always down to grind the game Melee players that "have talent" but they also have incredible work ethics : - Mang0 is just natural for Melee, he seems to have this affinity on playing Melee, it's like the game pretty much represents him on a way - Axe can pretty much play all characters at the highest level, he also keeps improving and finding new stuff on Pikachu - Plup is another TOP player that can play ALL characters at the highest level, he picked up Fox and Sheik , and in only a couple of months make them monsters - N0ne same as Mang0, have this bond with Melee, as Vish mentioned before "HE IS MELEE" - Wizzrobe have this talent on picking up something fast. He is what you can call a "Smash Master" Top player on (64 ,Melee , and Ultimate) - Azen , the master of diversity, is not that he just have talent to play Melee, he has THE TALENT to play any other videogame and LOOK pro on ALL OF THEM - Isai , even though his legend is bigger than his legacy, this guy seems so natural picking up Captain Falcon and destroying everyone, and his double Sheik is sick - PC Chris pick up Melee fast, and dominated New York in a blink of an eye, and more sooner than later was one of the "few" who beat "Prime Ken" As Mang0 mention on the 6-4 podcast : "Every top player of Melee are crazy monsters"
Henry you titled this as melee players that had good work ethic but it looks like you forgot this and just ended up spit-balling some general knowledge from the docs so thankyou for wasting my time xx Long live melee brother
I think Mango being a natural at Melee was just false narrative from the doc, the guy grinded the game with his friends and constantly pushed his characters’ combo game by trying new stuff out
@@MaximeFrjq "Also have great work ethic" Mango have this affinity with Melee, he understands the game better than most people do. He was one of the very first players to angle the shield so that his punish game would be insane. In addition to that, when Mang0 was the best he was so much ahead of everyone else, he could go with Mario or Falcon and still beat top players while not grinding. Also Mang0 is one of the only players alongside with N0ne that play the way they want and still win. Not taking anything away from Mang0, he grinds the crap out of the game, and is one of the players that currently grinds the most with Zain , iBDW and N0ne. Just clarifying that Mang0 pretty much have this special connection with Melee, but not taking away any of his efforts and accomplishment.
I like you talking about this kind of thing, I think it's especially helpful to hear someone who was at the peak of something whether it be melee or anything else, and share those ideas and that mindset to open up people's minds to what they can do if they're willing to put in the time and effort.
I've been in a dark place in past years of my life wondering about meaning or my purpose here. I've been so hard on myself and comparing my art skills to others and forsaken myself in worthless unoriginal art. Now I dont want to regret giving up on art just because I cant make living off it. This might have giving some motivation to try harding in art and drawing new stuff for myself than a career. Thanks!
I relate to this a lot! How good your art is depends on how meaningful your work is to you, not whether it makes you money. Keep learning and improving, but also try to love your art for what it is, rather than what you wish it could be. And just have fun making it!
also, as long as you see the beauty and expression of your art, it's as goof as any masterpiece. people might not value your art the same and others will connect and appreciate it. Even if you arent making money out of it, dont beat yourself up over it and instead enjoy the fact that you are doing something you love and find beauty in it😊.
and as a final thought, in the face of infinity our existence is absurd and meaningless. So it is wise to find your own meaning and purpose but dont stress out too much about it
On the point of reaction time, Shroud (arguably the best fps player of all time) has an average reaction time. He did a video testing monitor refresh rates. He makes up for it with muscle memory and game sense, which is hard work
Dude I absolutely love this. Can we get more tips or stories about improving from Armada? I use this video like it was an audible, while I was shaving.
The main reason why people are pulled to things they may not have an innate gift for is that enjoyment of improving in a specific realm tends to not have much to do with how quickly one takes to it.
Honestly I couldnt agree more with what you said. I felt like I've thought the exact same thoughts throughout my life and always found it strange how no one else I knew ever saw it like this! I would love to hear your thoughts on how to try to help other people see that they do have potential if the put the work in. I really want to help my friends who don't think they can be good at anything but it's really difficult because it's so hard to convince them that they are capable. Thanks so much for this awesome vid, subbed! :)
it's mostly a question of the definition of "talented." some people see it as a functional equivalent to "skilled," others see it as "lucky". I think the people who say it usually think the former, while the people they talk about assume the latter. personally I just tell people who say they "wish they could do that too, they could never do that" that they should just do it, it's worth it to try anything
I think of it as more of how much you're enjoying what you're doing. I used to have dog shit aim in rust. It was only until I stopped playing group battles or shooting at bots and started playing gun game free for alls that I started to get better at it.
I think it comes down to knowing when and how to practice things. The awareness part is important. People like to skip a lot of steps but this ultimately introduces bad habits which further put yourself in a rut. Bad habits must be unlearned.
There definitely can be some grey area between "talent" and working hard towards something. I grew up playing Mario Kart DS, I first played it when I was 4 years old. Over time, I slowly got more skilled and developed a very high understanding of the game's physics and mechanics. Now, I have a few top 60 times on the global leaderboard. Regardless of how long I've been playing the game, and how much I understand the technical aspects, I still needed to take the time to learn the exact lines to take on a certain track before getting a good time. I have also seen several players at a similar skill level as me who have not been playing the game for nearly as long as I have. Perhaps playing the game for so long does not give me an advantage over other players. Regardless, I have worked very hard to be where I am now, and I will continue to work hard and improve even more. I really enjoyed this video and the last one. Keep up the great work Armada!
Even if we're just talking fighting games, look at someone like Brolylegs, who objectively has a disadvantage compared to the vast majority of people, yet he's still far better than most people will ever be. He didn't allow himself to be defined by his physical limitations, yet there are so many people who use this unproven concept of talent to explain why they can't improve.
Hardwork only gets you so far, you need to have some degree of natural talent and game sense that just can't be achieved through training. If you watch and analyze Brolylegs, he is actually talented despite his disability. It wasn't just grinding out combos and playing the game that made him a decent player.
@@megazerosaber How do you analyze a player and quantify what aspects of their skill are due to talent and which ones are due to training? I don't think you can
@@megazerosaber to be a professional in a field, you don't need "natural talent", you need a drive to improve and a good mindset. Broly probably has both, which is why he is good at fighting games
@@sapphicvenusian9464 I can't tell if you're being serious. Having both talent and refining your skills is what puts you a class above everyone else. Do you think that the thousands of other melee players don't grind and train as much as the top level players? They are stuck at they levels they are because their natural ability is far lower than the other players.
ive noticed in this discussion everyone whos been successful says hard work was what got them there. but the people who try no where near enough to get the top use “talent” as an excuse for there lack of effort.
Its pretty obvious, but can be complicated. Talents just means certain things intuitively comes easier for you, and how comfortable you are with the subject like you know it inside out. Some fields talents matters more, but you could say 95% is hardwork while 5% is talent and only matters when in top of the field.
It's the Rock Lee Argument. I think there is such a thing as being a genius of hard work. The people who know their limits and want to continue pushing them have more potential for success than those who don't work hard enough to even know how high their limits are.
I completely agree with you when you said that calling someone "talented" can be insulting, as it undermines all of the time and effort they spent trying to better themselves by chalking it up to some mythical power that allows them to be good at something. I honestly feel like hard work and dedication >>> talent, and that to become good at something, you need to earn it.
@@t9t9t9t9t9 I disagree. Nobody is naturally godlike at something, it's just that they may have certain attributes that make it easier for them to learn something. Like, if someone has fast fingers, or a natural grasp of rhythm, they'll probably have a slightly easier time learning an instrument like a guitar or piano. However, they still need to practice and learn countless things about music, and to say that all of their musical ability stems from some "talent" they were given at birth is an insult to them, and does a disservice to their hard work and dedication. Sure, you might not be the best on the planet, but being good doesn't mean being a literal god. A person who is talented and a professional, when compared to a person who is not talented, but worked very smartly, is only around 5-10% better, and while that still might be a slight difference, that's nowhere near the 60% difference that you said. The rhetoric you're spouting is literally that of people who blame their lack of talent for their failures, instead of themselves.
@@t9t9t9t9t9 I never said that everyone can be world-class at whatever they want. Not everyone has the drive to work that hard, not everyone cares about something enough to reach the top level. When I say "talent doesn't really matter", I mean talent is not the determining factor when it comes to success. The most successful people in any given field are those who cared enough to devote time to what they are good at. I'm not saying that everyone will be world-class, I'm saying everyone can be world-class, IF they work hard enough, smart enough, and don't give up when it gets tough. As an example, I'm only average at art for my age. There are people who are way better than me, and are also in their young teens. They aren't better than me because they have some mystical talent or whatever, they're better than me because they dedicated time to their craft. And even if they're talented, that doesn't mean that they wouldn't be better than me without it.
@@t9t9t9t9t9 I DO play video games (I've played games for over 10 years of my life), and I DO have a clue what I'm talking about, that comment about half a million hours was, admittedly, really stupid, I just wasn't thinking when I said that. HOWEVER, you seem to be ignoring literally every part of my argument, and just restating your argument over and over, while I have actually responded to the points you brought up. I don't think you have no idea what you're talking about, however, I think you're somewhat close minded. Maybe consider listening to what other people have to say, and then form your opinion afterwards. I bid you farewell, and I hope you have a good night.
@@t9t9t9t9t9 Besides you assuming I don't know anything about gaming, which I do, I just made a clumsy math mistake (I crunched the numbers, and it turns out, Armada probably played melee for closer to 40000 hours, over the course of around 20 years, 12 of which were on a professional level), I suppose the discussion could end here.
@@t9t9t9t9t9 I'm sorry, I don't think I was specific enough. I may be wrong here, but I'm fairly sure Armada played Melee casually as a child since its release. That's what I meant when I said "around 20 years". But yes, you're right, he's been playing competitively for around 12 years.
I think that opportunity and necessity are a lot more important than both talent and hard work. Eg: i was born and had to live in a country with almost no melee in it i would never just randomly be very good at it, meanwhile i'm going to be a doctor and do the best i can because that's the best option i had and i need to at least be decent at doing it. I spent years playing league and for a while i dreamed of becoming a pro gamer or streamer but studying was far more feasible for me . I hate this mentality of people who want to "follow their dreams" and stuff because as it turns out there is a big chance you never even get close to a dream, even though someone else has succeeded in something a lot more people attempted something similar and failed regardless of how hard they tried or if they were actually good at it .
As mang0 himself said: "If you're not a top player within your first 2-3 years, you'll probably never get there." To me, talent is a big deal. Having talent means having potential, as well as a high growth rate. To reach the top of any highly competitive field, where there are a large pool of people working very hard to maximize their potential, the people with the most talent will likely float above the rest with time, while the those with less talent see diminishing returns much faster for the effort they put in. On the other hand, that potential (talent) will never be fulfilled without a substantial amount of Hard Work put into improving. As Armada says, there are many people that blame their lack of success on a lack of talent, without ever having put in the effort to test their potential to begin with. It's important for people to at least TRY before making such conclusions. That said, when people say they lack talent, it isn't always an excuse. People are born very different from one another, with very different affinities for things. If anything, it's a sign of maturity when somebody can recognize what their strengths and weaknesses are and stick to those things where they will see the most fruitful result, and stay away from those things that they don't have the potential to succeed in, even if it is their dream. Once you've tried to succeed at that thing you love for long enough, you must be honest with yourself at one point and determine whether there is a realistic pathway to success for you.
@@leukashot123 I agree fully with what he said and I don't understand why lots of people have a problem with this idea. to me it just seems like cope. a cat does not have the intellectual capacity to speak english. it doesn't matter how much it tried, it just can't. a human cannot run faster than a cheatah, it doesn't matter how much you train, you just can't the assumption that all humans are exactly the same and entirely sculpted by their environment is just optimism to the point of ridiculousness. it doesn't matter how hard I train, I would never succeed in the NBA, I'm not tall enough. same goes for intellect and dexterity based things. Newton derived calculus and his moment principia where there was no previous precedent. just from being that much more intelligent than everyone around him We can now comprehend his work and teach it in university to a decent chunk of the population, but the number of people who in the same position would derive calculus is practically nonexistent, he was just clever, tesla was just clever, ronnie sullivan was just sick at snooker and could play a perfect game, hannibal was just a sick military leader, there was no book on how to tie flames to your oxen's heads or cross the alps. some speedrunners are just naturally good. And Mango was just sick at melee yes, you still need to practice. yes, their work is valid, but the best people in the world at things got halfway to the top effortlessly while you have to grind to get 10% of the way up. magnus carlsen was playing grandmasters when he was a little kid, he did not have to grind for decades to reach that level, he just intuitively understood chess from a young age
Great Vid Armada. Loving these more introspective vids and the example of m2k is literally what motivates me already hahaha. I think you could really benefit from having chat on screen like other streamers so that we can get more context for what you are saying.
I will say when I think of talent its when someone can make certain improvements very naturally. Someone who can understand things without being taught them by someone else is someone I would say has talent. Does this mean this person is necessarily better? No. It just means they might have an easier time improving. I have tried many different hobbies and sports and that sort of thing, and had different levels of success in all of them. Although I put all my effort into improving at each one I was met with very different results. It was very easy for other people to say how “talented” I was, but the truth is I learned how to work hard and work smart by trying to improve in things I wasn’t good at naturally. When I finally found something I had “talent” for, combined with the work ethic I had developed it was very obvious to me what this word talent actually means. It’s just like why some relationships work and some don’t. It’s a real understanding and acceptance of the thing your interested in that let’s you overcome obstacles, and work twice as hard as somebody else. Imagine telling married people they’re“talented” for being together so long. They would probably think you’re an ass because to you it might look like a match made in heaven, but in reality both people sacrifice things for the other all the time. Being good at a skill is very similar.
Mathematically, in a competitive field luck is an important factor regardless of how much luck actually affects the result. If 20 people put in 14 hours a day, the 10 luckiest ones will make top 10. However, at the same time studies have shown that people who believe that hard work matters more have succeeded. How will you know if you never try? It is an overused excuse, I agree.
First time watching him play SM64. I don't know a lot about speed running it, but he seems really damn good at it for someone that is also the melee goat! I wonder what else he could be great at 🤔
IMHO I do believe in such a thing called "natural talent" For example natural talent allows you to pick things up easier than other people but it does have a ceiling and won't carry you to be the greatest it takes hard work.
If you mean milliseconds, I believe that's considered slow. But if you're using the online reaction testers they're extremely unreliable with things like monitor lag so you really cant take them at face value
Another very easy criticism to this mentality, is the fact that the person who puts in the most hours into a competitive endeavor is rarely the best. That's not proof that genes are the source (environment, coaching, types of practice etc. could all play a role), but it does prove that hard work is rarely ever the one true path to the highest echelons of sport
I don't have natural talent in fighting games, but that's all right. It's not needed to suceed and I haven't ever seen a valuable study that shows it even exists. My personal theory (which has no backup at all), is that natural talent is an advantage in the beginning, but as you get better it becomes a disadvantage. Basically I think natural talent gives you big basic stats but bad growing stats, which is why I think there are so few people that have tremendous ammout of natural talent at #1 spot (in smash). If you look at all the melee players, most of them didn't shown crazy signs of natural talent, some of them where out write garbage at the beginning. Ken, I have absolutely no idea but since it was at the beginning of the scene it would be probable that he had natural afinity with the game. M2K : Garbage Mang0 : The only one who really looks to be naturally talented like 100% Armada: Didn't see results before 2 years in and was barely top 10 in sweden , a roughly bad region at the time. HBox : Had great results at the beginning, but I think most people argue it's because of Jigglypuff who was a very slept on charact at the time and combined with the fact that she is very unique, people must've had a hard time understanding the matchup. Still potentially a naturally talented player. Zain: I don't know if you guys have seen his first tournaments, he was ASS . So for melee #1 we have a ''minimum'' of 1/6 naturally talented and a potential of 3/6 or 4/6 but I don't think armada is. The theory that most people have for natural talent and the one that probably is the truth is that natural talent does give you and advantage but it's like 10% or so and the rest is how you work to improve yourself. For anyone that has a hard time improving at the game, they're soooooooooooooooo many techniques to retain information better: -Shadow Boxing -Visualization -Lucid dreaming -Doing memory trainins etc.
Talent, as people know it, doesn't exist lol What people perceive as a natural ability or affinity to perform an action with high proficiency either comes from them getting the hang of the act quickly thanks to understanding, or has put in a lot of time and grind to pull it off.
you also have to consider at the time when mewtwoking became the best it was considered "cool" to not work hard, and he most likely is very talented regardless, you cant be the best at two different games at the same time vs other people who solo play that game unless you are very talented. I think you can definitely be a great player without being super talented, but to be better than mango or zain, people who are incredibly talented and grinding 12 hours a day and dont even need any other job than to play melee, yea its not gonna happen. At the end of the day you should just do what you are driven at and enjoy the most and if you happen to be talented then consider yourself one of the lucky ones
I think in a lot of cases there's this weird mystical quality to what "talent" supposedly is. I've seen it in a lot of the more fundamentalist circles. It's a shame because we could be talking about a similar thing, like opportunities that people get to have for economic reasons or whatever.
Hard work is just the prerequisite in getting to the top. Talent is _literally_ what determines whether your hard work will pay off. I know plenty of players who have put in just as much work as Zain (before he became full time) and can’t even get to PR in our average region. Zains talent is what allowed his hard work to show results. And if you say “oh zain just worked smarter”-that’s talent. It’s talent to just naturally _know_ where you need to put in your work-even if you’ve tried everything. I can and have watched a million of these kinds of advice videos and I still don’t/won’t just _know_ what to work on in the same way that Zain or armada does.
Working smart is not a talent. It's a life skill, and some people grasp it faster than others. It's not just "knowing how to work", it's finding a consistent work flow, and learning how to practice. I genuinely think if you rewatch the videos that give you advice on how to improve, really pay attention, take what they say to heart, and put in the effort required, you'll be able to improve more than you ever have before.
@@sapphicvenusian9464 you say this yet you're not even PR'ed or at the top of any field. why say these things if ur in the same position as me? (no offense meant, genuinely wondering if u supposedly have enough of a grasp to give me advice, why doesnt that advice work for u? maybe u and i lack the talent that zain and armada, etc. have and that's why we fail)
I do believe talent exists, but there’s no way for people to accurately gauge how talented they are. There are too many factors that go into improvement.
And most people don’t have talent in the things they actually like. I enjoy melee but I have seen almost no improvement in four years, and started off as the worst in my scrub non-competitive friend group.
You'll be kicked out of the running to be a world class tennis player or swimmer at 11 years old if your physiology is not compatible. It's a paradox in a way. The only way to truly be great is to work within a growth mindset and not a fixed one. The potential pitfall of cognitive dissonance there is that certain genetic variables WILL preclude you from achieving the heights of others whose compositions are more suited to the endeavor. Even if I busted my ass with the best trainers in the world as a teenager, my body would never swim like Phelps. You have to believe you can, but the reality probably disagrees
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
"hard work beats talent when talent fails to work hard."
Melee players that have incredible hard work ethics :
- Armada , HE PRETTY MUCH GRIND WITH CPUs all days for 8-12 hours, and grind the PUFF MATCH UP with his brothers and Abu for SO LONG
- M2K went frame by frame, grinding for hours , grinds for the "best option", and studies the crap out of each Smash game
- Leffen is a lab monster, the guy grinds the crap out of been optimal, and keeps bringing new stuff for the meta
- Hungrybox pretty much have to balance out school and Smash tournaments back on the day, and he even hired a coach to help him push beyond
- PPMD practice and grinds a lot, he analyzes every situation, he make popular the "shadow boxing", and he also was balancing school and Melee
- KDJ started from the very bottom, and he money match all the top players to get good, and it payoff big time for him
- Zain been a doc kid, have been climbing the ranks to get to the very top since 2013, and he has been pushing the Marth meta
- Hax$ have grind and work so hard, that his hands almost die. Good thing "The Box" can help him continue his Melee career.
- Swedish Delight goes to medical school, and as many other top Melee players, he has been balancing school and tournament and still come on Top
- Llod is also another top player that goes to medical school, and have been putting the work to be at the Top while balancing it
- Ken pioneer Marth to the very top, putting countless hours on the character to discover everything about him, and grinding all kind of match ups
- Ibdw make those "galactic jumps" with his hard work, he went from been at "Top 100" to "Top 10" in only 2 years. Always down to grind the game
Melee players that "have talent" but they also have incredible work ethics :
- Mang0 is just natural for Melee, he seems to have this affinity on playing Melee, it's like the game pretty much represents him on a way
- Axe can pretty much play all characters at the highest level, he also keeps improving and finding new stuff on Pikachu
- Plup is another TOP player that can play ALL characters at the highest level, he picked up Fox and Sheik , and in only a couple of months make them monsters
- N0ne same as Mang0, have this bond with Melee, as Vish mentioned before "HE IS MELEE"
- Wizzrobe have this talent on picking up something fast. He is what you can call a "Smash Master" Top player on (64 ,Melee , and Ultimate)
- Azen , the master of diversity, is not that he just have talent to play Melee, he has THE TALENT to play any other videogame and LOOK pro on ALL OF THEM
- Isai , even though his legend is bigger than his legacy, this guy seems so natural picking up Captain Falcon and destroying everyone, and his double Sheik is sick
- PC Chris pick up Melee fast, and dominated New York in a blink of an eye, and more sooner than later was one of the "few" who beat "Prime Ken"
As Mang0 mention on the 6-4 podcast : "Every top player of Melee are crazy monsters"
Henry you titled this as melee players that had good work ethic but it looks like you forgot this and just ended up spit-balling some general knowledge from the docs so thankyou for wasting my time xx Long live melee brother
I think Mango being a natural at Melee was just false narrative from the doc, the guy grinded the game with his friends and constantly pushed his characters’ combo game by trying new stuff out
@@MaximeFrjq "Also have great work ethic"
Mango have this affinity with Melee, he understands the game better than most people do. He was one of the very first players to angle the shield so that his punish game would be insane. In addition to that, when Mang0 was the best he was so much ahead of everyone else, he could go with Mario or Falcon and still beat top players while not grinding. Also Mang0 is one of the only players alongside with N0ne that play the way they want and still win.
Not taking anything away from Mang0, he grinds the crap out of the game, and is one of the players that currently grinds the most with Zain , iBDW and N0ne. Just clarifying that Mang0 pretty much have this special connection with Melee, but not taking away any of his efforts and accomplishment.
I like you talking about this kind of thing, I think it's especially helpful to hear someone who was at the peak of something whether it be melee or anything else, and share those ideas and that mindset to open up people's minds to what they can do if they're willing to put in the time and effort.
Wonderful video; shout outs to the editor!
kishoto the homie
I've been in a dark place in past years of my life wondering about meaning or my purpose here. I've been so hard on myself and comparing my art skills to others and forsaken myself in worthless unoriginal art. Now I dont want to regret giving up on art just because I cant make living off it. This might have giving some motivation to try harding in art and drawing new stuff for myself than a career. Thanks!
It’s 2021 brother, we can always improve our mindset to motivate us further to reach our goals. I wish you the best man 🙏
I relate to this a lot! How good your art is depends on how meaningful your work is to you, not whether it makes you money. Keep learning and improving, but also try to love your art for what it is, rather than what you wish it could be. And just have fun making it!
Hard making money off art that you value but not many people know about or value it enough to make a living off of it. Felt this.
also, as long as you see the beauty and expression of your art, it's as goof as any masterpiece. people might not value your art the same and others will connect and appreciate it. Even if you arent making money out of it, dont beat yourself up over it and instead enjoy the fact that you are doing something you love and find beauty in it😊.
and as a final thought, in the face of infinity our existence is absurd and meaningless. So it is wise to find your own meaning and purpose but dont stress out too much about it
On the point of reaction time, Shroud (arguably the best fps player of all time) has an average reaction time. He did a video testing monitor refresh rates. He makes up for it with muscle memory and game sense, which is hard work
Dude I absolutely love this. Can we get more tips or stories about improving from Armada? I use this video like it was an audible, while I was shaving.
The main reason why people are pulled to things they may not have an innate gift for is that enjoyment of improving in a specific realm tends to not have much to do with how quickly one takes to it.
Honestly I couldnt agree more with what you said. I felt like I've thought the exact same thoughts throughout my life and always found it strange how no one else I knew ever saw it like this! I would love to hear your thoughts on how to try to help other people see that they do have potential if the put the work in.
I really want to help my friends who don't think they can be good at anything but it's really difficult because it's so hard to convince them that they are capable. Thanks so much for this awesome vid, subbed! :)
it's mostly a question of the definition of "talented." some people see it as a functional equivalent to "skilled," others see it as "lucky". I think the people who say it usually think the former, while the people they talk about assume the latter. personally I just tell people who say they "wish they could do that too, they could never do that" that they should just do it, it's worth it to try anything
I think of it as more of how much you're enjoying what you're doing.
I used to have dog shit aim in rust. It was only until I stopped playing group battles or shooting at bots and started playing gun game free for alls that I started to get better at it.
8:06 this is what it comes down to
Talent only affects how quickly people learn. People without talent can still learn, even if it requires a bit more effort.
I think it comes down to knowing when and how to practice things. The awareness part is important. People like to skip a lot of steps but this ultimately introduces bad habits which further put yourself in a rut. Bad habits must be unlearned.
There definitely can be some grey area between "talent" and working hard towards something. I grew up playing Mario Kart DS, I first played it when I was 4 years old. Over time, I slowly got more skilled and developed a very high understanding of the game's physics and mechanics. Now, I have a few top 60 times on the global leaderboard. Regardless of how long I've been playing the game, and how much I understand the technical aspects, I still needed to take the time to learn the exact lines to take on a certain track before getting a good time. I have also seen several players at a similar skill level as me who have not been playing the game for nearly as long as I have. Perhaps playing the game for so long does not give me an advantage over other players. Regardless, I have worked very hard to be where I am now, and I will continue to work hard and improve even more. I really enjoyed this video and the last one. Keep up the great work Armada!
Even if we're just talking fighting games, look at someone like Brolylegs, who objectively has a disadvantage compared to the vast majority of people, yet he's still far better than most people will ever be. He didn't allow himself to be defined by his physical limitations, yet there are so many people who use this unproven concept of talent to explain why they can't improve.
Hardwork only gets you so far, you need to have some degree of natural talent and game sense that just can't be achieved through training. If you watch and analyze Brolylegs, he is actually talented despite his disability. It wasn't just grinding out combos and playing the game that made him a decent player.
I agree. He says himself ''if I can do it, you can do it.''
@@megazerosaber How do you analyze a player and quantify what aspects of their skill are due to talent and which ones are due to training? I don't think you can
@@megazerosaber to be a professional in a field, you don't need "natural talent", you need a drive to improve and a good mindset. Broly probably has both, which is why he is good at fighting games
@@sapphicvenusian9464 I can't tell if you're being serious. Having both talent and refining your skills is what puts you a class above everyone else.
Do you think that the thousands of other melee players don't grind and train as much as the top level players? They are stuck at they levels they are because their natural ability is far lower than the other players.
ive noticed in this discussion everyone whos been successful says hard work was what got them there. but the people who try no where near enough to get the top use “talent” as an excuse for there lack of effort.
Its pretty obvious, but can be complicated. Talents just means certain things intuitively comes easier for you, and how comfortable you are with the subject like you know it inside out. Some fields talents matters more, but you could say 95% is hardwork while 5% is talent and only matters when in top of the field.
Mario: *does the lakitu skip*
Lakitu: 👁👄👁
It's the Rock Lee Argument. I think there is such a thing as being a genius of hard work. The people who know their limits and want to continue pushing them have more potential for success than those who don't work hard enough to even know how high their limits are.
I completely agree with you when you said that calling someone "talented" can be insulting, as it undermines all of the time and effort they spent trying to better themselves by chalking it up to some mythical power that allows them to be good at something. I honestly feel like hard work and dedication >>> talent, and that to become good at something, you need to earn it.
@@t9t9t9t9t9 I disagree. Nobody is naturally godlike at something, it's just that they may have certain attributes that make it easier for them to learn something. Like, if someone has fast fingers, or a natural grasp of rhythm, they'll probably have a slightly easier time learning an instrument like a guitar or piano. However, they still need to practice and learn countless things about music, and to say that all of their musical ability stems from some "talent" they were given at birth is an insult to them, and does a disservice to their hard work and dedication. Sure, you might not be the best on the planet, but being good doesn't mean being a literal god. A person who is talented and a professional, when compared to a person who is not talented, but worked very smartly, is only around 5-10% better, and while that still might be a slight difference, that's nowhere near the 60% difference that you said. The rhetoric you're spouting is literally that of people who blame their lack of talent for their failures, instead of themselves.
@@t9t9t9t9t9 I never said that everyone can be world-class at whatever they want. Not everyone has the drive to work that hard, not everyone cares about something enough to reach the top level. When I say "talent doesn't really matter", I mean talent is not the determining factor when it comes to success. The most successful people in any given field are those who cared enough to devote time to what they are good at. I'm not saying that everyone will be world-class, I'm saying everyone can be world-class, IF they work hard enough, smart enough, and don't give up when it gets tough.
As an example, I'm only average at art for my age. There are people who are way better than me, and are also in their young teens. They aren't better than me because they have some mystical talent or whatever, they're better than me because they dedicated time to their craft. And even if they're talented, that doesn't mean that they wouldn't be better than me without it.
@@t9t9t9t9t9 I DO play video games (I've played games for over 10 years of my life), and I DO have a clue what I'm talking about, that comment about half a million hours was, admittedly, really stupid, I just wasn't thinking when I said that.
HOWEVER, you seem to be ignoring literally every part of my argument, and just restating your argument over and over, while I have actually responded to the points you brought up. I don't think you have no idea what you're talking about, however, I think you're somewhat close minded. Maybe consider listening to what other people have to say, and then form your opinion afterwards. I bid you farewell, and I hope you have a good night.
@@t9t9t9t9t9 Besides you assuming I don't know anything about gaming, which I do, I just made a clumsy math mistake (I crunched the numbers, and it turns out, Armada probably played melee for closer to 40000 hours, over the course of around 20 years, 12 of which were on a professional level), I suppose the discussion could end here.
@@t9t9t9t9t9 I'm sorry, I don't think I was specific enough. I may be wrong here, but I'm fairly sure Armada played Melee casually as a child since its release. That's what I meant when I said "around 20 years". But yes, you're right, he's been playing competitively for around 12 years.
I think that opportunity and necessity are a lot more important than both talent and hard work. Eg: i was born and had to live in a country with almost no melee in it i would never just randomly be very good at it, meanwhile i'm going to be a doctor and do the best i can because that's the best option i had and i need to at least be decent at doing it. I spent years playing league and for a while i dreamed of becoming a pro gamer or streamer but studying was far more feasible for me . I hate this mentality of people who want to "follow their dreams" and stuff because as it turns out there is a big chance you never even get close to a dream, even though someone else has succeeded in something a lot more people attempted something similar and failed regardless of how hard they tried or if they were actually good at it .
As mang0 himself said: "If you're not a top player within your first 2-3 years, you'll probably never get there."
To me, talent is a big deal. Having talent means having potential, as well as a high growth rate. To reach the top of any highly competitive field, where there are a large pool of people working very hard to maximize their potential, the people with the most talent will likely float above the rest with time, while the those with less talent see diminishing returns much faster for the effort they put in.
On the other hand, that potential (talent) will never be fulfilled without a substantial amount of Hard Work put into improving. As Armada says, there are many people that blame their lack of success on a lack of talent, without ever having put in the effort to test their potential to begin with. It's important for people to at least TRY before making such conclusions.
That said, when people say they lack talent, it isn't always an excuse. People are born very different from one another, with very different affinities for things. If anything, it's a sign of maturity when somebody can recognize what their strengths and weaknesses are and stick to those things where they will see the most fruitful result, and stay away from those things that they don't have the potential to succeed in, even if it is their dream. Once you've tried to succeed at that thing you love for long enough, you must be honest with yourself at one point and determine whether there is a realistic pathway to success for you.
Where can I find the quote? I wanna know more about the context. Thank you
I agree with you saying about affinities for things to an extent but I disagree with the final part of what you said. Interesting take though
@@somagozo4572 ruclips.net/video/HcrwCgvr60A/видео.html
This video, around the 40 second mark or so.
@@leukashot123 I agree fully with what he said and I don't understand why lots of people have a problem with this idea. to me it just seems like cope. a cat does not have the intellectual capacity to speak english. it doesn't matter how much it tried, it just can't. a human cannot run faster than a cheatah, it doesn't matter how much you train, you just can't
the assumption that all humans are exactly the same and entirely sculpted by their environment is just optimism to the point of ridiculousness. it doesn't matter how hard I train, I would never succeed in the NBA, I'm not tall enough. same goes for intellect and dexterity based things. Newton derived calculus and his moment principia where there was no previous precedent. just from being that much more intelligent than everyone around him
We can now comprehend his work and teach it in university to a decent chunk of the population, but the number of people who in the same position would derive calculus is practically nonexistent, he was just clever, tesla was just clever, ronnie sullivan was just sick at snooker and could play a perfect game, hannibal was just a sick military leader, there was no book on how to tie flames to your oxen's heads or cross the alps. some speedrunners are just naturally good. And Mango was just sick at melee
yes, you still need to practice. yes, their work is valid, but the best people in the world at things got halfway to the top effortlessly while you have to grind to get 10% of the way up. magnus carlsen was playing grandmasters when he was a little kid, he did not have to grind for decades to reach that level, he just intuitively understood chess from a young age
@@AlexRoseGames i didn't say i had a problem with it, i even said it was an interesting take at the end of my reply
Great Vid Armada. Loving these more introspective vids and the example of m2k is literally what motivates me already hahaha.
I think you could really benefit from having chat on screen like other streamers so that we can get more context for what you are saying.
I will say when I think of talent its when someone can make certain improvements very naturally. Someone who can understand things without being taught them by someone else is someone I would say has talent. Does this mean this person is necessarily better? No. It just means they might have an easier time improving. I have tried many different hobbies and sports and that sort of thing, and had different levels of success in all of them. Although I put all my effort into improving at each one I was met with very different results. It was very easy for other people to say how “talented” I was, but the truth is I learned how to work hard and work smart by trying to improve in things I wasn’t good at naturally. When I finally found something I had “talent” for, combined with the work ethic I had developed it was very obvious to me what this word talent actually means. It’s just like why some relationships work and some don’t. It’s a real understanding and acceptance of the thing your interested in that let’s you overcome obstacles, and work twice as hard as somebody else. Imagine telling married people they’re“talented” for being together so long. They would probably think you’re an ass because to you it might look like a match made in heaven, but in reality both people sacrifice things for the other all the time. Being good at a skill is very similar.
How do you Define talent? Natural affinity or ability to do something well?
"Yea talent is not a thing"
- Armada while perfectly speed running SM64 and talking at the same time
I know you're probably joking but you should watch the first part. Even in speedrunning he's trying to improve and had to reset throughout
Mathematically, in a competitive field luck is an important factor regardless of how much luck actually affects the result. If 20 people put in 14 hours a day, the 10 luckiest ones will make top 10.
However, at the same time studies have shown that people who believe that hard work matters more have succeeded. How will you know if you never try? It is an overused excuse, I agree.
First time watching him play SM64. I don't know a lot about speed running it, but he seems really damn good at it for someone that is also the melee goat! I wonder what else he could be great at 🤔
IMHO I do believe in such a thing called "natural talent" For example natural talent allows you to pick things up easier than other people but it does have a ceiling and won't carry you to be the greatest it takes hard work.
I honestly agree. "Talent" does exsist, to some extent, but it doesn't play anywhere near as much of a factor as some people think.
in smash ?
@@EmeraldaKasim in general
What if being able to work really hard / having the will to do it is being talented or not ? x)
Talent: Destroying all the gods + Leffen/Plup in Melee
Hard work: everything else
Random question cause you reminded me, is 350-370 reaction time good?
what do the numbers mean
If you mean milliseconds, I believe that's considered slow. But if you're using the online reaction testers they're extremely unreliable with things like monitor lag so you really cant take them at face value
I meant milliseconds, yea. Also there’s probably about 20ms delay but that’s not a big difference I think
Another very easy criticism to this mentality, is the fact that the person who puts in the most hours into a competitive endeavor is rarely the best. That's not proof that genes are the source (environment, coaching, types of practice etc. could all play a role), but it does prove that hard work is rarely ever the one true path to the highest echelons of sport
I don't have natural talent in fighting games, but that's all right. It's not needed to suceed and I haven't ever seen a valuable study that shows it even exists. My personal theory (which has no backup at all), is that natural talent is an advantage in the beginning, but as you get better it becomes a disadvantage. Basically I think natural talent gives you big basic stats but bad growing stats, which is why I think there are so few people that have tremendous ammout of natural talent at #1 spot (in smash). If you look at all the melee players, most of them didn't shown crazy signs of natural talent, some of them where out write garbage at the beginning.
Ken, I have absolutely no idea but since it was at the beginning of the scene it would be probable that he had natural afinity with the game.
M2K : Garbage
Mang0 : The only one who really looks to be naturally talented like 100%
Armada: Didn't see results before 2 years in and was barely top 10 in sweden , a roughly bad region at the time.
HBox : Had great results at the beginning, but I think most people argue it's because of Jigglypuff who was a very slept on charact at the time and combined with the fact that she is very unique, people must've had a hard time understanding the matchup. Still potentially a naturally talented player.
Zain: I don't know if you guys have seen his first tournaments, he was ASS .
So for melee #1 we have a ''minimum'' of 1/6 naturally talented and a potential of 3/6 or 4/6 but I don't think armada is.
The theory that most people have for natural talent and the one that probably is the truth is that natural talent does give you and advantage but it's like 10% or so and the rest is how you work to improve yourself. For anyone that has a hard time improving at the game, they're soooooooooooooooo many techniques to retain information better:
-Shadow Boxing
-Visualization
-Lucid dreaming
-Doing memory trainins
etc.
strong agree
Bro u were speeding the shit out of M64 in the last bit.
Great video to me the closest thing to talent is being able to learn something quicker then other people
It kinda feels like most of life’s questions are not black or white (like talent or no talent) I don’t think talent is the right factor in question
Good series
Amazing video
What?!?! M2k wasn't good at Melee? Impossible.
Talent, as people know it, doesn't exist lol
What people perceive as a natural ability or affinity to perform an action with high proficiency either comes from them getting the hang of the act quickly thanks to understanding, or has put in a lot of time and grind to pull it off.
you also have to consider at the time when mewtwoking became the best it was considered "cool" to not work hard, and he most likely is very talented regardless, you cant be the best at two different games at the same time vs other people who solo play that game unless you are very talented. I think you can definitely be a great player without being super talented, but to be better than mango or zain, people who are incredibly talented and grinding 12 hours a day and dont even need any other job than to play melee, yea its not gonna happen. At the end of the day you should just do what you are driven at and enjoy the most and if you happen to be talented then consider yourself one of the lucky ones
I think in a lot of cases there's this weird mystical quality to what "talent" supposedly is. I've seen it in a lot of the more fundamentalist circles. It's a shame because we could be talking about a similar thing, like opportunities that people get to have for economic reasons or whatever.
Armada, I mean this in a loving way: Please cut your hair. You are getting bald and a very short hairstyle would make you look better.
Armada with a buzz cut :o
Hard work is just the prerequisite in getting to the top. Talent is _literally_ what determines whether your hard work will pay off.
I know plenty of players who have put in just as much work as Zain (before he became full time) and can’t even get to PR in our average region. Zains talent is what allowed his hard work to show results.
And if you say “oh zain just worked smarter”-that’s talent. It’s talent to just naturally _know_ where you need to put in your work-even if you’ve tried everything.
I can and have watched a million of these kinds of advice videos and I still don’t/won’t just _know_ what to work on in the same way that Zain or armada does.
Working smart is not a talent. It's a life skill, and some people grasp it faster than others. It's not just "knowing how to work", it's finding a consistent work flow, and learning how to practice. I genuinely think if you rewatch the videos that give you advice on how to improve, really pay attention, take what they say to heart, and put in the effort required, you'll be able to improve more than you ever have before.
@@sapphicvenusian9464 you say this yet you're not even PR'ed or at the top of any field. why say these things if ur in the same position as me?
(no offense meant, genuinely wondering if u supposedly have enough of a grasp to give me advice, why doesnt that advice work for u? maybe u and i lack the talent that zain and armada, etc. have and that's why we fail)
I do believe talent exists, but there’s no way for people to accurately gauge how talented they are. There are too many factors that go into improvement.
Great video title. I've definitely found myself playing talent with considerably less hours at a game thsn me and more ability..the feeling sucks
And most people don’t have talent in the things they actually like. I enjoy melee but I have seen almost no improvement in four years, and started off as the worst in my scrub non-competitive friend group.
You'll be kicked out of the running to be a world class tennis player or swimmer at 11 years old if your physiology is not compatible.
It's a paradox in a way. The only way to truly be great is to work within a growth mindset and not a fixed one. The potential pitfall of cognitive dissonance there is that certain genetic variables WILL preclude you from achieving the heights of others whose compositions are more suited to the endeavor.
Even if I busted my ass with the best trainers in the world as a teenager, my body would never swim like Phelps.
You have to believe you can, but the reality probably disagrees