The Great Disc Brake Debate!
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- Опубликовано: 10 фев 2025
- When are Discs better than drums and do you need them all round???
Today we discuss when and where you need Disc Brakes
#protouring #customcars #musclecar #mustang #kapwing #mustangfastback #utg #classiccars #classiccarsculture @UncleTonysGarage #wilwood
You guys really do nice work.
Thanks man!
Great advice from Kiwis Crispy Classic Custom Cremes. A properly adjusted drum actually works better than a disc....... *once*. Give it a hiding, or even just a bit of brisk driving, and minimum of discs up front are an absolute necessity. Funny, thinking how you mentioned people's distrust of discs in the 60s, but by then, the Italians were putting them on all four corners of nearly anything that wasn't just a city commuter.
Another great video Kiwi. Keep them coming.
Custom Cremes 😂🥲. You and Tony are as dyslexic as hell...😜
I hear a lot of people say drums are fine, and they will stop fine under sedate driving conditions. I have a 1968 Chevelle that had all drums. Came off an exit ramp to see a police officer standing in the road. I had 4 people in the car and had both feet on the brake pedal as the car locked up and the brakes RAPIDLY faded away ! The disc brake conversion followed soon thereafter!
I'll bet it did!! 😁 Thanks for watching!
Hate to have to tell you but the audio on this video is hard to hear, even with headphones.
That being said, you still have some of the best content out there. Thanks, I realize that you don't have to do this and I appreciate you for it.
Thanks man. Your not the first to say that, I really have to get some mic's
I have had nothing but trouble with those GM style calipers with the integrated parking brake for the rear disc conversions. 3 separate customers cars have had dragging e-brakes, e-brakes that wouldn’t hold the car, and calipers that would lock up when hot. For budget rear disc conversions on cars, I use factory late-90s/early-00s Explorer parts. It is a disc brake with a drum in the hat for the parking brake. The only modification needed is re-drilling the backing plate to match the pattern of your axle retainer, but once that is done they bolt right on to 8” or 9” rear axles.
That's Hot Rodding bud! Creativity born of necessity 😎👍
Go through the adjustment procedure. Do it off the car on a vice to get it perfect. Not even close to worth the time involved IMO. If I have a customer that wants rear discs I push for the wildwood with integrated drum. I don't do budget stuff lol.
Excellent advice. My 69 Camaro had four drums and slowing down from 114 mph on track they faded. I always took the second exit just to save the extra wear and tear. A lot of racers used them because they could be adjusted not to rub. Someone might back that up cause I just raced to see how fast I could go.
Back in the good old days right😁. Thanks for watching
Thanks for another great video kiwi!👍
Your most welcome, thanks for watching!
Oh no! My daughter learned this year on my 4 drums. I think it's a great way to understand brakes. Now, I've had the Delta sliding sideways on the Interstate before... so I can appreciate the appeal to "upgrade", but... not sure I'm sold. Anyway, obviously a great vid!!
Drum brakes have been stopping millions of cars for a 100 years or so. You'll upgrade when and if you need to. Great that your daughter learned to drive in a Delta. She'll remember that in 40 years😎
I always sit back and listen to this debate. I don't have much to add, and I don't need to do it. Everyone likes to make fun of my Versailles, but she came with 4 wheel disc with a hydroboost. The few times I've had to stand on it, she wanted me to have a conversation with the dash.
Lol. I'll bet she did!
I've been saying this since the 80's, when I built my '67 Cougar. I did a junkyard parts swap from front drums to disc brakes from a '68 Cougar XR7 (spindles and brackets-all new rotors, calipers, lines), then stumbled my way into a 9" rear diff from a Lincoln Versailles, that included the entire rear disc brake system. No, I didn't need the rear discs, but since the rear end came so equipped, it went on my Cougar. I did this in phases- front first and then the rear. I noticed a huge difference with the front brakes, not so much on the rear. Come to think of it, I really miss that ol' Cougar, she sure stood out in a sea of 65-68 'Stang notchbacks in my local Mustang club.
My mustang has a $80 explorer rear axle. It still has the original ring and pinion, just added a limited slip center and a reinforced hat on the back.
Search here on YT for KIWIburnout 1
Damn, I'm the owner of a1967 cougar for the last 46 years and I did pretty much the 4 wheel dics set up like you in 2012. Your right, on the rear dics, not much deterrence in stopping. Thanks from north California
Nice job. That Barbera Mustang is something else. That paint sure is pretty.
Thanks man!
Funny just last night on my way home my 83 Mercedes broke a rotor. Rotor probably only had 60K miles on it and the pads were still good and no signs really of much wear but the flange broke off from the hub so clean I couldn't even see what was wrong until I turned the hub by hand and the outer part of the rotor didn't move just staid held in the caliper. Caliper was not stuck and no signs of heat. Only thing I can figure is the cast was bad. I looked it up and they were Bendix rotors I put on 4 years ago.
Oh could have ended badly!
Good content sir
Thanks man!!
I’ve heard that the because there is a larger friction area on the shoes compared to pads. So properly adjusted drum brakes should stop great until they get hot from repeated hot and heavy use back to back to back. At least in theory.
Yes, heat is what kills the drum brake
I embraced disc brakes the first time I saw them in 1965.
Not everyone was a forward thinker in 65. Good for you! Thanks for watching
@@kiwiclassicsandcustoms9160
Love watching. I was a kid of 10 and didn't know that much about cars except what my dads friend taught me. He was a licensed mechanic and had me helping by the age of seven. What I really understood was that they didn't get wet, something I learned even time my dad drug the brakes through a puddle. Cheers!
Don't let Uncle Tony hear you say any of that... 😆
Noooo😁. We both know that we have quite different styles and opinions on building cars but we're still friends in-spite of that. Hot rodding is all about self expression after all. Thanks for watching
@@kiwiclassicsandcustoms9160 I feel the exact same way. I disagree with some of the chapter and verse Tony quotes, but we read the same scripture. 😉
I'm 4 wheel Disks on everything , but Im a Spirited Driver.
"Spirited" 😁. Is that how the cop described it?😎. Thanks for watching man!
Good stuff guys!
Thanks man!
I've always been of the school of if it ain't broke don't fix it...... Drum brakes do work for the rear and keeping the car OEM, but if you plan on tearing a car down you may as well give yourself all the safety that you can. Cuz if you go left on a burnout because you're right caliper is stuck that's a problem and most people let their calipers rust crazy they don't do a lot of maintenance on them....... However, racing, you need as much as you can in the safety department if disc brakes are safe and serviced that can go a long way...
Couldn't have said better! Cheers mate!
Difficult to argue with your advice, especially if we separate classic and muscle cars. Docile classics will be ok with original looking drums, the key is that they are upgraded to dual circuit systems.
Regarding hot rods and nice looking disc rears, in most modern cars the rear discs remain rusty... 😉
Even on a classic a single circuit master is ok after all millions of miles were done with them. You just have to be on top of preventative maintenance! Thanks for watching
Drums work with good quality shoes, which are getting hard to find. Discs work better, but pad quality isn’t what it used to be either
With all the asbestos rules now it's changed that's for sure! Thanks for watching
Asbestos is the reason. A very stable ingredient is all friction material and was genuinly kind on rotors. There is no end of decent pads out there for performance driving
I throw front drum brakes in the recycle bin on any old Mopar. My '76 Valiant sedan runs the last of the B & R- body "Big discs," offset UCA bushings trick, A38/A51 suspension & steering. It's not a desirable muscle car, but it's a cool vintage driver
Fun to drive is fun to drive. Build it how you like it, drive it and have fun!!
@@kiwiclassicsandcustoms9160 exactly. To me, I like the ease of getting parts, better braking; without purchasing Wilwood, Baer or such $$$ components- at a certain point its not smart money nor will it give me better stopping (reaction times, tires and suspension play a huge role- but can't sell mega-buck parts pitching those ideas).
I've got a sedan. It'll never pull "Real" money, but it's part of the appeal. I can drive it all over with little worry
Aside from heat soak issues with Drum brakes. I prefer disc for the ease of maintenance. Nothing I hate more than dealing with sticking/rusted drums!
A lot less moving parts in a disc set up too! Thanks for watching
Yeah, my 67 came with disk in front and drum in back. Works great. Still upgrading to a $9000 brake system...
Nice!!! What kind?
Give me the 9 grand and I'll make sure that car never moves again!!!! Lol...
@@kiwiclassicsandcustoms9160 Wilwood or Baer or SSBC.
Awesome work!! Really good info!!! Cheers!!
Glad it was helpfull. Thanks for watching!!
Been looking at big brakes for my 2013 boss 302 and as far as rear brakes go I keep being advised against putting multi piston calipers due to the semi floating axle causing too much piston push back from the axle inward outward play causing a low pedal just spent 4 days at the track looking at lots of cars and guess what every one is running the stock rear calipers for s197 8.8 type rear axle also told by many builders there are rear calipers out there for sale but they wouldnt install them on their cars good luck
Ok, multiple things to address here. 1: the Ford c clip rear axle does suffer from more end float than a full floating or bearing retained axle. That end float can cause "pad knock off" giving the long pedal. A residual line pressure valve is an easy fix for this. It keeps a couple of psi in the rear lines. Pad knock off does not get exponentially worse as the number of pistons increases as the pistons are smaller.
2: The whole reason for multi piston caliper is to allow a larger longer pad. As the pad gets longer you need 2 or 3 pistons pressing on the back of the pad to insure even pressure on it. If you just have one piston in the middle of the pad it will deflect or bend in the middle and that defeats the whole point of the larger pad. In the high end calipers they will have smaller leading piston and slightly larger trailing piston to further improve the pressure balance over the pad surface. The key thing here is multiple piston hydraulic area is typically close to to the hydraulic area of a single piston caliper so the pad knock off is not worse. That argument is flawed.
3: rear brakes do about 25-30% of the stoping work ( factory rear brakes are often choked down hydraulically with a bias valve of some kind) so the stock set up is likely adequate with upgraded front brakes unless you go with huge front brakes.
I have 11" mid 60s full size Chevy brakes not the 9" drums of other years makes and models. It stops well, I am not driving my cars like I am at a track or anything like that. I will say wheel cylinders go bad more often than brake calipers. If you like to go 120mph + get big disc brakes you will need them for sure
Agreed!! Thanks for sharing and watching!
Love your videos, always inspire me to do more to my mustang. Question for you, have you ever done an EPAS system on a customer's car? Did a lot of research and bought a system from a 2009 Prius. Everything seems straightforward and eliminates all the belts and fluids from he equation plus extremely reliable.
I've heard a lot of good things about it but it hasn't crossed my path as yet
I'm with you 100%, Tony at UTG makes me lol, cuz Drums are for Dinosaurs, ya never saw even early Pro Stock drag cars without Disc brakes.
You really think a man that raced nitro would build anything that fast without disc brakes?
I guess for me a car needs to stop as good as it goes and as good as it corners. It's a combo of all three. Thanks for watching
@@kiwiclassicsandcustoms9160
Agreed. Always irked me to see guys like my own brother have 10k in the engine and 4 bucks in brakes...
@@oldtimerf7602 lol- he only owned a fuel altered that he raced a short time, otherwise he always states he uses all drums on all his door slammer drag cars.
🔔😎
1) As you stated, you can slide the wheels with drums.... at least once.
The limit is tire traction.
2) no safety stands.
I have no problems with my 1978 Granada manual type 11" disc/ 10"drums system on my car. 3300 pounds.
But I do believe in premium pads but still run standard type vented rotors.
Enjoy your stuff. 👍👍👍 Thanks. 😎
Hmm point 2... Yeah ya got me there, should have had stands under it! In my defense it was jacked up purely for the video and no one was going under it. Still not best practice though. Thanks for watching!!
@@kiwiclassicsandcustoms9160 Well, the FMVSS has specification on OEM stopping distance.
So yes, they have laws.
It is brake manufacturers that most, develop and use one recipe for disc friction and another for drum.
I will be running disc / drum as it comes down to modification. The pressure has not increased at the master cylinder, but one 3" front piston is the same as two 1.5" pistons. The change comes with cam's, higher Horse Pony's that result in an incorrect sized booster. Without a vacuum pump, then you may have to go to an 11" booster. Less vacuum yet, dual diaphragm 11" booster. The problem is room, lack of funds. Even is you want to go 2.6 secs to 1/4 mile, then maybe 6 piston front calipers. Use what a Corvette uses. I don't see any discussing DE3A ACDelco pads certified by Greenling Labs and place the vehicle into FMVSS.
As far as drums on rear, the wheel cylinder may be an inch or 1 1/8" I.D., but the shoes are self energizing and grab fine.
If you want to race and put $6k in 4 wheel disc, then do it, but 80 MPH is still the max speed limit. (Wyoming is on its own)
My problem is guys who build 1000+ HP cars / pickup and don't match brakes to GVW, speed and hp factor.
DK, ASE master retired.
@@deankay4434 One 3" diameter piston is not equal to two 1.5" diameter pistons. The line pressure generated by the force on the master cylinder piston, the volume of fluid moved by the master cylinder, the resulting pedal effort and travel, and the caliper piston force resulting from the line pressure all vary according to the square of the piston diameter. Consequently, at a constant line pressure, a single 3" diameter caliper piston (diameter squared = 9) will exert twice as much force upon the rotor as two 1.5" diameter pistons (diameter squared = 2.25 each). This condition explains why it is so easy to wind up with grossly mismatched master cylinders, calipers, and drum brake wheel cylinders.
@@myredford39 Not taking the time to do the "Pi" math. I could care less. I know they are not the same as these same principles are exercised in hydraulics of automatic transmissions 100 ways to Sunday. Everyone has their own idea on brakes but I had to diagnose, repair the root cause and move on. It's called flat rate. Even dealers where I worked until 9PM thousands of nights. I lost count how many times my wife brought dinner.
Happy stopping!
@@deankay4434 Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying in your first comment. I thought you were talking about modified systems, not OEM. A non-stock brake system should work well if all the components are sourced from or designed for one car. When combining '69 Camaro front discs, '65 Nova rear drums, and a '73 Mustang master cylinder (not from a kit) as I have on my Model A, the components' piston diameters (as well as pedal ratio, a proportioning valve, and several other variables) have to be taken into account, or the resulting gee-whiz brake system can be dangerously bad. But I'm just a cranky old engineer who has been playing with hot rods for 35 years. Regards.
Drum brakes are more than adequate for most daily driving needs. If they are set up properly and properly maintained, you will be fine with drum brakes. If you live on a mountain or plan on racing the car, the discs will probably be better.
Of course, all this assumes the parts you are getting are high quality. If Ford still makes the drums for some modern car's rear brakes, definitely buy the Ford brand.
Of course, if you can "upgrade" the car to OEM disc brakes, then that is the way to go.
The market is absolutely flooded with sub-par 3rd party parts of every description. I've seen videos of shattered or cracked aftermarket rotors. You just cannot trust any aftermarket parts these days, especially with your life. I'd rather have high quality drums than poor/unknown quality rotors.
That is why I say don't change them if you don't "need" them. If you aren't racing and you don't regularly go down 8% hills 10 miles long, you don't really need them and you can avoid the headache.
I hear ya. I replaced the 100k rotors on my wife Lincoln MKS, 6000 miles later they pumping through the pedal😡 I got them warrantied out but they didn't install themselves ......
In the day they took disks off and converted to drum
Cheaper
Old time ford mechanic told me that when I asked if he would convert
To disc
When disks were a new thing there were plenty of naw sayers. Change isn't always well accepted by some .....
Question around the rear disk brake conversion, if you did not change the axel to a full floater, will the rear disk brakes automatically brake in hard corners? Might only be a real issue on track days and maybe auto-x. Not really an issue for drum brakes since the shoe has some lateral room to move.
Great question. They won't automatically brake but you can get what's called "pad knock off". This is when the pad pushes the pistons back into the caliper giving you a long pedal on the first application. That can be quite un nerving! Back in my rally days we would use a double row wheel bearing that gave you a lot more lateral support and eliminated knock off. Another easy way is to install a residual pressure valve in your rear brake line that hold 3-4 ponds pressure all the time. It does create a little drag but works well for auto cross and track. Hope that helps!
I'm sorry if this ain't the time nor place but I've seen your work from uncle Tony! And with the circumstances I'm trying to get ahold of you, a brake video is the best way to try to get ahold of someone. I had bad drums in my 69 charger and it resulted in a totalled 69 charger. Fixing it is a job I cannot do myself, and I don't trust people easily, but I'd trust your recommendation if you have one, im in west Texas and need a place to do the heavy work, front frame rails, inner fenders, new k frame, pretty much all the bones up front, the passenger side may be savable but the driver side is gone, do you happen to know anyone that would tackle a job like this close to west texas. I would ask you to do the work but your too busy and far for lil ol me. Thanks kiwi
Man I'm sorry but I don't know anyone down that way. I'd ask around some local Cars and Coffee groups if I were you. Try and get some verbal references from actual clients rather than Google reviews, they can be bought!
@@kiwiclassicsandcustoms9160 I appreciate the quick reply! And I knew it was a long shot just have to try everything! And sadly the closest cars and coffee to my little town is just jam packed with hellcats and the new mustangs, ill still ask them though! And yeah I was trying to find a good donor and do it myself but the more I look at the damage, the more I realize I would have the slightest clue to fix it RIGHT, sure I could weld a front clip in, but will the car track straight, I doubt it!. Good luck with your current projects, not that you need luck!
@@ianhale4466 thanks man!
Hey Kevin! I’ve got a 63 mercury meteor is there a decent disc brake conversion for this? Remembering I’m in nz and will need certification. It’s drum all round with a remote booster I’ve got a little 302 in it now so front discs would be nice.
That should be the same as a 63 Falcon so Wilwood have a kit for those. For the Aussie market Wilwood have a caliper that has dust boots for the pistons as that's a requirement there. Not sure if thats required in NZ though. Something to check on before you buy. Cheers mate
Yeah, front disks on everything. I've personally seen the pre Light Vehicle Modification days in New Zealand before 1992. Even in a backwater like Kiwi land, everyone did XE Falcon or HZ Holden four wheel disk conversions.Frontband back! In the US, that's never been the case until 2000 and the AutoCross X era. Big problem (and I have a friend at Wildwood) is that there's a lot of extra that goes into it, because C clip 28 spline 8.8 inch axles and factory Shrink ring 9 inch Disk rear Versailles are very badly engineered and don't cope or suit what a good modern cammed up Small Block can produce. And a functional hand brake that allows you to do burnouts...that's a lot of work with a disk rear end.
Yup front disks are minimum in todays traffic and horsepower levels. Thanks for watching!
What about upgrading the quality of the rear drum shoes? What's available and from whom? ( first gen F body)
There are places that do upgraded shoes that are typically used in the racing class's that mandate stock brake configuration. They help a bit but suffer from noise and don't work so well when cold. Use a good quality shoe and if that's not enough bite the bullet and go disc brake
Muscle Car Brakes in Texas offers hi po drum brake kits.
This was very informative brother. I have been thinking about do I want to go stock disks on the chevelle or like Winwoods cuz the stock you just go to a parts store and get a new calipers or shoe's what's it like for the Winwood if you need to do the same thing what's the time line to get something extra 🤔.
I've found it to be pretty good. Of course you can't rock on down to Autozone or Napa and wilwood stuff but 2-3 days from summit or Jegs.
@@kiwiclassicsandcustoms9160 ya living in the middle of nowhere land sucks lol. But we are dealing with it hard to get some of the cars we have collected is dang tough to get in bigger places so win some lose some lol. Love your channel brother have s great week 👍
I’ve got a 68 Barracuda with a 426 Hemi with standard 4 wheel drums that I upgraded to a Stage III Muscle Car Brake kit. Without a power brake booster ( no room for it) there’s no real advantage to a disc conversion. Car stops pretty good overall with this premium drum setup.
Good for you man! There is a huge amount of peer pressure within our hobby to have the best and blingiest stuff on our cars. If your enjoying your car for a bunch less money then more power to you. Smiles to the mile is what it's all about !! And if a Hemi A body doesn't make you smile your dead inside😁😎
In the mountains of California, disc brakes are a must, but if you're in the flat lands ok
Well that always said it don't matter how fast you go if you can't stop it faster. Here's my brake story. Back when I live next to Fred Flintstone and Barney rubble and I was about 17 years old the sheriff came back to our place. Takes a little bit to get back there. And my dad are old friends and there's no sound I'm here to talk with you. I understand there's a guy driving the truck around here it doesn't have any brakes and I want you to know that's not safe to do. I just simply said sir you know my dad it ain't me. It was the wild hair Jones Brothers up the road. Wouldn't it be nice if the cops it still has a little to do they can make courtesy calls like that. The brothers up in the road the last name wasn't Jones either. If you can't stop it you'll end up in the land down under. Under about three and a half foot of dirt because they don't really put you 6 ft under. Always thought the other down under land would be a good place to visit. Looking forward to your video or videos on the brakes.
Always entertaining sir😁. Thanks for sharing!😎
Not that it's applicable to classics but if you live in the rust belt like me having drums on the back of your daily driver is a big advantage...they don't corrode and lock up due to winter salt exposure like disks do. My DD has 4-wheel disks and I'm back there every other year to pull them apart and clean them up. Wife's DD has rear drums, I've serviced them once in the 13 years she's had the car
Wheel cylinders are prone to premature failure when left to sit for long periods. Sounds backwards but the more you use them the longer they'll last!
@@kiwiclassicsandcustoms9160 On drum brake wheel cylinders I always pull the boots and smear silicone grease on the bore inside to prevent rust. That combined with using dot 5 silicone brake fluid and I have had cars sit 20 years and still have brakes just like day one. before that they couldn't sit 3 years without being trash.
Good advice!!
I don't race in my drum brake car, it stops perfectly fine in any normal use.
Agreed! If it ain't broke don't fix it. If your going to throw more HP at it then you need to throw more brakes at it. Thanks for watching!
Brakes?
?? What about brakes?
Why would anyone get brakes without dust seals? Seems like false economy to try and save a few bucks on some seals.
I kind of agree with you. The problem is not everyone does. People shop on price. Go to Oreilys and the have 3 grades of brake pads, economy, mid range and premium. They sell way more economy pads!!! It's that mentality that ensures we keep getting cheap shitty parts..... thanks for watching man!
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Thanks for watching !!😎
👍👍🙂🇨🇦
Thanks man!
Great video with good info. You might want to get Darth Vader off the camera job though, his breathing apparatus gets annoying
We'll work on that😬. Thanks for watching!
Um actually, Pontiac stopped production in 2010! This is harmful misinformation.
Don't you just hate those people 😂.