Pascal, my first programming language. Back in high school we went on a trip to Paris and I got Pensées in some little book shop then. Great conversation Sean and Doug.
This in an important conversation. What convinced me that math is discovered not invented is the unexpected prediction of animatter that came out of Paul Dirac's equation which was originally intended to describe the behavior of electrons. I was an atheist at the time. Realizing this made me wonder what business did math, an abstract logical system, have being woven into a purely naturalistic universe? The only plausible explaination seemed to be that reality has an intrinsic conscious component.
While I think you’re right about the objectivity of math, it doesn’t rule out naturalism, just causality. My current view is that the universe (including time) emerged via Turing-Completeness from a system of abstract objects. An interesting corollary to this idea is that everything is interconnected by chains of Turing-Completeness, including our minds. I first had this idea while I was a Christian, but I now see a lot of contradictions in the axioms of Christianity. It’s just too messy and anthropocentric to be true. I’m not here to convince anyone, I just thought it was worth sharing since it’s been on my mind.
@@natlovell122This is just a bald assertion. The commenter lays out this nice, well-substantiated point and you just blurt out “nuh uh”? Why should anyone take your comment seriously if you’re not willing to put in any work?
*Jesus is clearly speaking to the disciples and gives a timeframe for when the Son of Man would come.* "Jesus sent these twelve out, charging them, saying: Do not go into the way of the nations, and do not go into a Samaritan city. But rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And going on, proclaim, saying, The kingdom of Heaven has drawn near" (Matthew 10:5-7) “Truly I say to you, ***you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes”*** (Matthew 10:23); For the *Son of man* shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; ***and then he shall reward every man according to his works.*** Truly I tell you, ***some who are standing here will not taste death*** before they see the *Son of Man* coming in his kingdom (Matthew 16:27-28) Truly I tell you, ***some who are standing here*** will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God (Luke 9:27) Truly I tell you, ***this generation will certainly not pass away*** until all these things have happened (Mark 13:30) *He says that the coming of the Son of Man will be accompanied by:* The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. Then will appear the sign of the *Son of Man* in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the *Son of Man* coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Truly I tell you, ***this generation will certainly not pass away*** until all these things have happened (Matthew 24:29-34) There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time they will see the *Son of Man* coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near. When you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. Truly I tell you, ***this generation will certainly not pass away*** until all these things have happened (Luke 21:25-32) He also falsely prophesied to the high priest, the Sanhedrin and Nathaniel. *Jesus falsely prophesied to the high priest and the Sanhedrin* Jesus also falsely prophesied to the high priest and the Sanhedrin (assemblies of either twenty-three or seventy-one rabbis appointed to sit as a tribunal) You will see the *Son of Man* sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and ***coming on the clouds of heaven*** (Matthew 26:64) (Mark 14:62) Except the high priest and the Sanhedrin never saw Jesus sitting at the right hand side of God, or coming on the clouds of heaven, or any such thing. *Jesus falsely prophesied to Nathaniel* Jesus also falsely prophesied to Nathaniel when he declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel.” Jesus said, You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You will see greater things than that. He then added, ***“Very truly I tell you, you will see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man*** (John 1:50-51) *Nathaniel never saw any such thing. Neither did anyone else.* ------------------------------------------------------------------ Also look up: Watch *Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet, Historical Lecture - Bart D. Ehrman* *"End Times - Evil Bible .com"* *"The End of All Things is At Hand - The Church Of Truth"* *"ex-apologist: On One of the Main Reasons Why I Think Christianity is False (Reposted)"* *"Jesus the Apocalyptic Prophet - History for Atheists"* (Tim O'Neill is a former Christian and is familiar with most of the Biblical scholarship. He's been studying the scholarship and history for decades) *"Jesus’ Failed Prophecy About His Return - Black Nonbelievers, Inc."* Also, how cognitive dissonance possibly explains early Christianity. *“The Rationalization Hypothesis: Is a Vision of Jesus Necessary for the Rise of the Resurrection Belief?”* - by Kris Komarnitsky | Κέλσος - Wordpress *"February 2015 - Escaping Christian Fundamentalism"* - Isaiah 53 *"Jesus and the Messianic Prophecies - Did the Old Testament Point to Jesus? - The Bart Ehrman Blog"* *"Did Jesus Fulfill Prophecy? | Westar Institute"* *"Jesus Was Not the Only “Prophet” to Predict the Destruction of the Temple - Escaping Christian Fundamentalism"* *"What Do the Apostles’ Deaths Prove? Guest Post by Kyle Smith. - The Bart Ehrman Blog"*
@Nexus-jg7ev Pascal helped me understand the true nature of humanity that we are noble and wretched and we need a Savior. " Through space the universe encompasses and swallows me up like an atom; through thought I comprehend the world." "The greatness of man is great in that he knows himself to be wretched. A tree does not know itself to be wretched." "There are only two kinds of men: the righteous who think they are sinners and the sinners who think they are righteous."
@@epicofatrahasis3775 Damn, you made this case as strong as it could be. Seems like an overkill, but maybe it isn't. And maybe most Christians here would still try to find a way around all this data. That's just cope. I think that it is clear enough that Jesus got this wrong.
You should reach out to Nathan Reynolds’s to see if he will do an interview with you. He has an amazing testimony. He was born and raise in the occult, dealt with DID, lots of medications, nearly committed suicide because of it, etc. He has written his own book called “Snatched from the Flames”. Amazing story, truly
That's sort of nonsense. Reality exists. Humans developed math as a way of representing reality in a way that was useful. So math isn't actually a thing on its own to be "discovered". Instead, we invented it as an abstract tool.
@@majm9309 We write formulas or do our 2+2's, but those formulas exactly explain how something falls within a mathematical construct. There are mathematicians who would disagree with you, the applicability of math is a great apologetic for design. Math only works if the equations were already there in the mind who made things that fit perfectly, into mathematical principles.
@@flamingswordapologetics Again, what you're saying is nonsense. * Reality existed. * We observed it. * We saw things like when we put one apple next to another, we had a couple apples. * We then created a system of numbers to describe that reality: 1+1=2. * All other formulas from the simplest to the most complex are invented by humans similarly (though not all directly touch reality itself; for example algebra is a way we're using math to effectively solve math problems -- so it's a tool in a tool) So... * what I just described doesn't require something "already there in the mind". (With the exception of the tool-in-a-tool, I guess...if you stretched the meaning of "already there in the mind") * your phrase "something falls within a mathematical construct" is actual nonsense (meaning it's a sentence that doesn't make a coherent point; it's like you threw together a bunch of words without knowing what they mean). * who cares if mathematicians disagree with me? If I'm wrong you can explain why. So far you're not explaining why -- you're acting like I'm right.
@@flamingswordapologetics No, that's wrong (and doesn't address what I said at all). Reality existed. We observed it. We saw things like when we added one thing to another, we ended up with a couple things. We formalized that as an abstract system. We invented math. We then further developed it over time, based on tools we felt would be useful to us. So the only minds involved are the humans who developed math (and those who continue to develop it into the future).
@@SeanMcDowellYou better learn how to write logic science 101 on a chalk board. You don't know the difference between the law of contradiction, p is non p, versus law of non contradiction, p isn't non p, p is p. 1> non p non conscious non intelligent non being caused the Illogical impossible contradiction effect of 2> conscious intelligent being in the universe This is p is non p, a false scientific hypothesis period
@@SeanMcDowellevolution depends on p is non p to be true. 1> p non cell caused the p is non p impossible contradiction effect of 2> a cell p is non p Sean, an ABSOLUTE FALSE SCIENTIFIC HYPOTHESIS, as an apologist, you fail, you embrace contradictions.
@@SeanMcDowellp is non p 1> p non cell caused the impossible contradiction effect of 2> non p, a cell p is non p a false scientific hypothesis Why don't you teach logic science properly Sean. Your rhetoric is opinion that needs to be verified by writing the logical facts on a chalk board. 1> p non knowledge caused the Illogical impossible contradiction effect of 2> non p knowledge in the universe p isn't non p, p is p, p knowledge caused the non contradiction effect of p knowledge in the universe This is amazing knowledge bro, get with the program bro or your family is toast because of your contradictions.
If you then, BEING EVIL, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him? Luke 11:13.. it is the Ruach haKodesh/the Holy Spirit, Who is the One that leads us and guides into all truth Psalms 119:142.. I am the Vine, you are the branches: He that abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: FOR WITHOUT ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING John 15:5...Hebrews 13:8 Yahshua Messiah the same yesterday, today and forever..
One day eyes will see, every knee bow every tongue will confess Jesus is Lord Yeshua is Lord! ❤ When He come to the world He put all principalities, power, on these world under His feet when He said I am the Way, I am the Truth, I am the Life! If you deny Yeshua at any shapes or form you deny the way to Salvation and freedom! Free your soul! He is the light were all looking for!
I’ve always thought that mathematics proves there is a creator, it’s obvious. The laws governing the observable universe were not invented, they were discovered. IE They’ve always been there.
@@therick363 there’s only 2 options. Those same complex equations: 1. Slowly came into existence and “evolved” to be complex and right over time. 2. Instantly appeared and were correct and complex to begin with. Sorry you have more faith than I do.
@@andrewtsousis3130 address my comment first. If you can’t or won’t then I shall ignore yours as well. Show me you can engage in an honest conversation
I don't believe science is a way to come to knowledge by its own works. Science relies on axioms to make conclusions. Axioms are self-evident truths. Science is always falsifiable. Truth is never falsifiable. The only way to come to knowledge is through knowing truth. Then one can begin to gain knowledge. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.
The more one can learn about the creation, the more one is convicted He is real. You can only be in awe and deep reverence before such intelligence and beauty, which is the definition of the Fear of the Lord Romans 1:20 CSB For his invisible attributes, that is, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what he has made. As a result, people are without excuse.
Most religions don't condemn Christians so even if Christians have the wrong religion, they may still have a good afterlife or reincarnation according Mormons, Jehovas Witnesses, Buddhism, Hinduism, paganism, Jainism, Daoism, Sikhism and Judaism. Islam is maybe 50/50 on Christians getting to Muslim Heaven.
God having a son means 2 gods. Trinity, Original sin, Begotten son & Crucifiction are pagan concepts preached by Paul & his church in contradiction to Jesus & his Disciples teachings
Math has its place no denying,but math help him to know there is no God,could be for him but not for Bible believers,a person blind receives sight,deaf hear,dumb speak,leper healed,cancer healed and so on,now who does that if there is no God.
Time come here in front! Yes LORD go remind unto all these ACCUSERS! Time will say, rather not to put all Accusers to be 6 feet under! But given Time who ye Have murdered? These principalities who deceiveth and murderers since in the beginning murmuring among themselves saying the OWNER will not come back! For we have murdered Him! To take HIS SEAT to Exalt! Angels who persevere and heard the WORD will say, bring all the Gods of Men in front! Remember from HIM time given approval! Till time will come back and say LORD! WILL BE DETERMINED
I'm taking g this as a sign! Only a few of hours ago, I brought an old Penguin Classics copy of Pensees down from the attic, thinking that I should give it a go. I've has it for a few years, but never attempted it. Then the next tkmd I open RUclips, this video is 2nd in my recommendations. Is it a sign, or does the algorithm know me too well?!
17:42 Romans chapter 1, verses 18 to 20, clearly _do_ outline a natural theology. It can't be primarily about the flagellum of the bacterium, or the four dimensionality of the DNA, since these have only recently been seen in microscopes. It must be about sth that's visible since the beginning of time (btw, St. Paul is here giving a near approach to a third NT prooftext against Adam being created millions of years after creation began), and as it mentions "from heaven" I think this gives a strong hint that St. Paul had the Prima Via of St. Thomas in mind, in the explicit version that''s Geocentrism, if you look at parallels in Contra Gentes. The one that unfortunately Riccioli also rejected. Why did Riccioli reject it? Well, he didn't think heaven as a whole was moving, he thought heavenly bodies were moving through empty space. Each moved by its angel, but not directly by God. So, to Riccioli, the Sun is directly moved by an angel East to West in 24 hours for a full circle. To St. Thomas, that body is suspended in a crystalline sphere (which I replace with the aether) moving East to West at 23 h 55 min full circle, while the angel is taking it from West to East within that sphere (or the aether) 366 times slower. I think in St. Paul's day, good astronomic observation was showing the fatuity of Epicure and Lucrece arguing for Geocentrism without a God, that's "basically whirls in a cosmic fluid" ... the movements were even then too complex and regular.
It can be added, even on Riccioli's view, the heavenly bodies are coordinated, so there must be someone commanding the angelic beings. One would still have a Quinta Via argument for God.
Also recommend the book "Fermat's Enigma" which walks you through the solution, the unification of ALL 4 math disciplines and illustrates the absolute evidence of God.
Did sean misspeak ? He said pascal spoke on muhammad in the 17th century, and islam only was around for a decade ? Well no islam was around from 7th century to pascals around the 17th century so maby he ment centuries plural, today islam has been around upper of 1.400 years.
Just more arguments that seem to go nowhere. *Pascal's Wager* is of course bad math. It's an admirable approach to attempt to make the mathematical case for belief in a god. However the key error is not considering every possibility, where for every idea "believe in god x to receive infinite reward" there's an opposite idea "believe in god x and you'll be infinitely punished". So all infinite-positive outcomes are balanced against an equal number of infinitely-negative outcomes, which means there isn't an argument to place one's "wager" on any particular result. Instead, you'd place it based on the cost of the result, and believing most gods carries more of a cost than non-belief. Meaning True Pascal's Wager is an argument for atheism. *Natural theology* is bad science. We don't have evidence of any gods. We don't even have evidence of the appearance of design (talking specifically about what we've observed outside Earth). Worse, if we did have that evidence we'd also need evidence the cause was a god (science isn't pretending to know unknown things; either we have evidence justifying a belief, or we shouldn't hold that belief). So we don't have a case for gods.
The Mandelbrot equation is pretty amazing . We didnt really know much until computers made it amazing. The infinite nature of it kinda represents god mathematically.
@@mace41canuck So are you not really arguing a god exists then? Because math is abstract, and the very end of what you just described is "representing god mathematically". The letters "god" represent god in the English language, but when we discuss whether something exists we're not looking for a "representation" (an idea in a mind). We're looking for evidence of *the actual thing sharing reality with us.*
@@mace41canuck Evidence is our only reliable way of knowing anything, and you haven't presented evidence of a god. So it feels like you don't actually know one exists. Certainly if you knew a god existed, we wouldn't expect you to bring up some abstract idea, and weirdly call it "god" (which makes two mistakes: (a) that you seem to be trying to redefine god isn't existence -- a bit like arguing elves exist because I call my coffee mug by the word "elf", and (b) that what you redefined it to was _only an abstract idea,_ so you didn't seem to be arguing a god exists at all -- because we don't say things exist if they're just ideas; Harry Potter is an idea, but we don't say Potter exists; or if we do it's understood because Potter is fictional that we're just saying "this is an idea people have in their minds")
9:15 Basically every second non peasant child in Europe was homeschooled these times. The great Mozart received homeschooling (if you heard he went to the Piarist High School, it's actually his son who did that).
AND the wager assumes god wants to be worshipped and discriminates against those who don't worship him. If I was God, I would be happy just being God. Nothing could bother me. I certainly wouldn't be bothered by the opinions of beings infinitely inferior to myself. It's almost like the ideas of Gods were based on the tinpot despotic leaders of the late bronze age, who demamded fealty.
@psychologicalprojectionist you probably missed the part where God says he is a Father. Do you have children? Do you not care that you children chose you and love you? Do a father not do everything he knows to be good for his upbringings even when they don't feel like it at the time? Your version of God is not the God of the bible, all he ever wants from us is to be free to chose him, not us to be puppets. The creator of the universe wants a relationship with you, ask him your questions directly, He always listens and responds.
@@wayklm9471 Fatherhood or Godfatherhood? And Part 1, 2 or 3? Seriously, there is nothing universal about being a father. Either in nature or in humans, fathers (and we should include mothers) play different roles in their children’s lives. Male fish, never knowingly meet their offspring. And as a father, I don’t expect my kids to worship me, in fact quite the reverse. And I am an atheist, I have no God. The God you accused me of Strawmaning is the god whose holy book commanded to keep a day special for him and not to worship anything else but Him. And contrary to what you say, the commandments are in the Bible, this is the god of the bible. The same god who cannot forgive us (in spite of his omnipotence) for a ‘sin’ of fruit theft made by distant ancestors without committing Filicide and demanding our belief in it. The God of heaven and Hell, that has been preached about for almost 2000 years!
Pascal's Inverse Wager Any god will readily see if one’s adherence to faith is mere public sham, and not genuinely felt, but only so on the off-chance there is an eternal reward. A god would likely hold such a person to a higher standard of worthiness. In contrast, the non-believer who feels unable to accept a god's existence without compelling evidence, but regardless pursues a laudable life of respecting others, and care for themselves and others, can only be excused and accepted into eternal communion by a compassionate god.
Amen! People who claim to know things that others don't and teach it to the rest of us with condemnation are despicable! Are they not also human like us and make the mistakes? Book of Job 19:28-29
How is truth only of instrument value if there is no God? Truth is intrinsically valuable, whether or not there’s a God. What Sean says at 49:26 is a complete non sequitur.
Math convinces me that there’s no Christian god. We know from math that the Noah’s flood story never happened as the Earth would need 5 times as much water as it has.
A God that exists outside of time and that "can do all things" couldn't multiply the water that earth has by five times and then reduce the water that earth has by that same factor? You're not dealing with God as He is merely projecting your own limitations as a contingent creature and criticizing the result.
@@wills9392 So we still know that the story as described is physically impossible. Believe it all you like, just don't try sizing up against science with that sort of thing.
You are making assumptions about the geography of the pre-flood world. What was the height of the highest mountian? 52:56 What was the depth of the sea? What was the percentage of sea to land? Since we don't know and can't know this is a falasis argument
Pascals wager was a totally dumb and illogical wager. I'm an atheist (a real atheist) so I would need to lie to accept Pascals wager and if god couldn't pick up I was lying, that god is an idiot. There's a mainstream theist trend towards invoking god created mathematics as a reason god must be real. I've pointed this out many times: Modern mathematics would not exist without a zero "0". The zero was invented by a Shiva believing Hindu so, if you want to invoke mathematics as a proof of god, please limit it to having proved a Hindu god.
*The Enuma Elish would later be the inspiration for the Hebrew scribes who created the text now known as the biblical Book of Genesis.* Prior to the 19th century CE, the Bible was considered the oldest book in the world and its narratives were thought to be completely original. In the mid-19th century CE, however, European museums, as well as academic and religious institutions, sponsored excavations in Mesopotamia to find physical evidence for historical corroboration of the stories in the Bible. ***These excavations found quite the opposite, however, in that, once cuneiform was translated, it was understood that a number of biblical narratives were Mesopotamian in origin.*** *Famous stories such as the Fall of Man and the Great Flood were originally conceived and written down in Sumer,* translated and modified later in Babylon, and reworked by the Assyrians ***before they were used by the Hebrew scribes for the versions which appear in the Bible.*** ***In revising the Mesopotamian creation story for their own ends, the Hebrew scribes tightened the narrative and the focus but retained the concept of the all-powerful deity who brings order from chaos.*** Marduk, in the Enuma Elish, establishes the recognizable order of the world - *just as God does in the Genesis tale* - and human beings are expected to recognize this great gift and honor the deity through service. *"Enuma Elish - The Babylonian Epic of Creation - Full Text - World History Encyclopedia"* *"Sumerian Is the World's Oldest Written Language | ProLingo"* *"Sumerian Civilization: Inventing the Future - World History Encyclopedia"* ("The Sumerians were the people of southern Mesopotamia whose civilization flourished between c. 4100-1750 BCE." "Ancient Israelites and their origins date back to 1800-1200 BCE.") *"The Myth of Adapa - World History Encyclopedia"* Also discussed by Professor Christine Hayes at Yale University in her 1st lecture of the series on the Hebrew Bible from 8:50 to 14:30 minutes, lecture 3 from 28:30 to 41:35 minutes, lecture 4 from 0:00 up to 21:30 minutes and 24:00 up to 35:30 minutes and lecture 7 from 24:20 to 25:10 minutes. From a Biblical scholar: "Many stories in the ancient world have their origins in other stories and were borrowed and modified from other or earlier peoples. *For instance, many of the stories now preserved in the Bible are* ***modified*** *versions of stories that existed in the cultures and traditions of Israel’s* ***older*** *contemporaries.* Stories about the creation of the universe, a cataclysmic universal flood, digging wells as land markers, the naming of important cultic sites, gods giving laws to their people, and even stories about gods decreeing the possession of land to their people were all part of the cultural and literary matrix of the ancient Near East. *Biblical scribes freely* ***adopted and modified*** *these stories as a means to express their own identity, origins, and customs."* *"Stories from the Bible"* by Dr Steven DiMattei, from his website *"Biblical Contradictions"* ------------------------------------------------------------------ In addition, look up the below articles. *"Yahweh was just an ancient Canaanite god. We have been deceived! - Escaping Christian Fundamentalism"* *"Debunking the Devil - Michael A. Sherlock (Author)"* *"The Greatest Trick Religion Ever Pulled: Convincing Us That Satan Exists | Atheomedy"* *"Zoroastrianism And Persian Mythology: The Foundation Of Belief"* (Scroll to the last section: Zoroastrianism is the Foundation of Western Belief) *"10 Ways The Bible Was Influenced By Other Religions - Listverse"* *"January | 2014 | Atheomedy"* - Where the Hell Did the Idea of Hell Come From? *"Retired bishop explains the reason why the Church invented "Hell" - Ideapod"* Watch *"The Origins of Salvation, Judgement and Hell"* by Derreck Bennett at Atheologica (Sensitive theists should only watch from 7:00 to 17:30 minutes as evangelical Christians are lambasted. He's a former theist and has been studying the scholarship and comparative religions for over 15 years) *"Top Ten Reasons Noah’s Flood is Mythology - The Sensuous Curmudgeon"* *"Forget about Noah's Ark; There Was No Worldwide Flood | Bible Interp"* *"The Search for Noah’s Flood - Biblical Archaeology Society"* *"Eridu Genesis - World History Encyclopedia"* *"The Atrahasis Epic: The Great Flood & the Meaning of Suffering - World History Encyclopedia"* Watch *"How Aron Ra Debunks Noah's Flood"* (8 part series debunking Noah's flood using multiple branches of science) *"The Adam and Eve myth - News24"* *"Before Adam and Eve - Psychology Today"* *"Gilgamesh vs. Noah - Wordpress"* *"Old Testament Tales Were Stolen From Other Cultures - Griffin"* *"Parallelism between “The Hymn to Aten” and Psalm 104 - Project Augustine"* *"Studying the Bible"* - by Dr Steven DiMattei (This particular article from a critical Biblical scholar highlights how the authors of the Hebrew Bible used their *fictional* god as a mouthpiece for their own views and ideologies) *"How do we know that the biblical writers were* ***not*** *writing history?"* -- by Dr Steven DiMattei *"Contradictions in the Bible | Identified verse by verse and explained using the most up-to-date scholarly information about the Bible, its texts, and the men who wrote them"* -- by Dr. Steven DiMattei
So someone tells a story to quite a few people who pass the story down to quite a few other people, and you’re gonna see a lot of changes, starting out minor, but probably getting a little bigger. Then the original person comes back and tells the story Word for Word at a later time, and it’s right because that was the creator of the story. Catching on yet? 1 Corinthians 1:18-19 1 Corinthians 1: 20-21 Proverbs 111:10
Curious how this supposedly brilliant man, failed so hard with his "wager". He may have been smart in math, but not in how he argues for his imaginary friend. It assumes many things with no evidence. it assumes you lose nothing if you are wrong, but you do lose resources and time. When christains bring up Pascal, just be ready for them to run when shown how the wager fails their claims.
Wow! You posted this before the video. Understandably, you might know a lot about Pascal but you might learn something new that answers your question as to whether or not he is illogical or he "failed." It's not logical to answer a question or a video without at first seeing the evidence or lack thereof. In fact, it shows a closed mind. Resources and time are lost on other issues. Losing resources and time is part of life as he argues in his sections about pleasure and pastime. One does not lose a lot of time by assuming there is a God. An instance of deciding for God might make one lose pleasure and pastime but as Hegel and other philosophers have pointed out, there are many "benefits" in being virtuous, for one's well-being and for one's health, reputation, wealth... even if one is an atheist. His wager apparently worked with quite a few people. Upshot: if you read the book of Proverbs in the Bible or any book on ethics or behavior, you should know that you should have posted your comment after the video started. You show a lack of knowledge in such a small thing and you're criticizing Pascal?
This so-called loss of resources and time is minuscule and insignificant. It doesn’t take much time nor many resources in the grand scheme of things to follow Christian beliefs. Besides, there are many benefits for both yourself and others.
Did you even listen to what Dr. Groothuis said? Dr. Groothuis said it isn't an argument for God's existence, but a motivation for why one should consider his existential situation.
If the universe and all it's functions are purely material, atheism and theism are both impossible. Since a material universe is all there is, it can't step outside of itself, which means it can't conceive of immaterial things like gods.
Believing in God is easy compared to believing in the God of the Bible which contains fantastical stories, contradictions, and is subject to multiple interpretations.
Believing in God is easy compared to being an atheist where you literally cannot defend any of your positions and your only truths are subjective. Is it “make baseless claims as if they’ve been proven true” time? If so I’m down for that
Honest question, how exactly would the actions of a god not be perceived by anything less than fantastical? Surely a god could do things beyond our human comprehension obviously.
Did everyone else expire the audio muffling on Doug's side ? Or is it my issue ?
yes
Yes couldn't watch it...
I agree; it's a shame that the audio was not great.
Yea it's awful. gonna have to skip this one unfortunately
Doug is Warren Zevon’s first cousin.
Difficult to listen to because the sound is so muffled
The recent discoveries about the extraordinary structure and functioning of the cell snd cosmic fine tuning further strengthen his arguments..
Pascal, my first programming language. Back in high school we went on a trip to Paris and I got Pensées in some little book shop then. Great conversation Sean and Doug.
This in an important conversation. What convinced me that math is discovered not invented is the unexpected prediction of animatter that came out of Paul Dirac's equation which was originally intended to describe the behavior of electrons. I was an atheist at the time. Realizing this made me wonder what business did math, an abstract logical system, have being woven into a purely naturalistic universe? The only plausible explaination seemed to be that reality has an intrinsic conscious component.
Everything is discovered, nothing is invented
While I think you’re right about the objectivity of math, it doesn’t rule out naturalism, just causality. My current view is that the universe (including time) emerged via Turing-Completeness from a system of abstract objects. An interesting corollary to this idea is that everything is interconnected by chains of Turing-Completeness, including our minds.
I first had this idea while I was a Christian, but I now see a lot of contradictions in the axioms of Christianity. It’s just too messy and anthropocentric to be true. I’m not here to convince anyone, I just thought it was worth sharing since it’s been on my mind.
@@natlovell122This is just a bald assertion. The commenter lays out this nice, well-substantiated point and you just blurt out “nuh uh”? Why should anyone take your comment seriously if you’re not willing to put in any work?
Doug is an excellent, top notch scholar.
Pensees by Pascal helped bringing me to Christianity.
What is Pascal's best argument?
*Jesus is clearly speaking to the disciples and gives a timeframe for when the Son of Man would come.*
"Jesus sent these twelve out, charging them, saying: Do not go into the way of the nations, and do not go into a Samaritan city. But rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And going on, proclaim, saying, The kingdom of Heaven has drawn near" (Matthew 10:5-7)
“Truly I say to you, ***you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes”*** (Matthew 10:23);
For the *Son of man* shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; ***and then he shall reward every man according to his works.***
Truly I tell you, ***some who are standing here will not taste death*** before they see the *Son of Man* coming in his kingdom (Matthew 16:27-28)
Truly I tell you, ***some who are standing here*** will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God (Luke 9:27)
Truly I tell you, ***this generation will certainly not pass away*** until all these things have happened (Mark 13:30)
*He says that the coming of the Son of Man will be accompanied by:*
The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.
Then will appear the sign of the *Son of Man* in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the *Son of Man* coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Truly I tell you, ***this generation will certainly not pass away*** until all these things have happened (Matthew 24:29-34)
There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time they will see the *Son of Man* coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near. When you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.
Truly I tell you, ***this generation will certainly not pass away*** until all these things have happened (Luke 21:25-32)
He also falsely prophesied to the high priest, the Sanhedrin and Nathaniel.
*Jesus falsely prophesied to the high priest and the Sanhedrin*
Jesus also falsely prophesied to the high priest and the Sanhedrin (assemblies of either twenty-three or seventy-one rabbis appointed to sit as a tribunal)
You will see the *Son of Man* sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and ***coming on the clouds of heaven*** (Matthew 26:64) (Mark 14:62)
Except the high priest and the Sanhedrin never saw Jesus sitting at the right hand side of God, or coming on the clouds of heaven, or any such thing.
*Jesus falsely prophesied to Nathaniel*
Jesus also falsely prophesied to Nathaniel when he declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel.”
Jesus said, You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You will see greater things than that. He then added, ***“Very truly I tell you, you will see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man*** (John 1:50-51)
*Nathaniel never saw any such thing. Neither did anyone else.*
------------------------------------------------------------------
Also look up:
Watch *Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet, Historical Lecture - Bart D. Ehrman*
*"End Times - Evil Bible .com"*
*"The End of All Things is At Hand - The Church Of Truth"*
*"ex-apologist: On One of the Main Reasons Why I Think Christianity is False (Reposted)"*
*"Jesus the Apocalyptic Prophet - History for Atheists"*
(Tim O'Neill is a former Christian and is familiar with most of the Biblical scholarship. He's been studying the scholarship and history for decades)
*"Jesus’ Failed Prophecy About His Return - Black Nonbelievers, Inc."*
Also, how cognitive dissonance possibly explains early Christianity.
*“The Rationalization Hypothesis: Is a Vision of Jesus Necessary for the Rise of the Resurrection Belief?”* - by Kris Komarnitsky | Κέλσος - Wordpress
*"February 2015 - Escaping Christian Fundamentalism"* - Isaiah 53
*"Jesus and the Messianic Prophecies - Did the Old Testament Point to Jesus? - The Bart Ehrman Blog"*
*"Did Jesus Fulfill Prophecy? | Westar Institute"*
*"Jesus Was Not the Only “Prophet” to Predict the Destruction of the Temple - Escaping Christian Fundamentalism"*
*"What Do the Apostles’ Deaths Prove? Guest Post by Kyle Smith. - The Bart Ehrman Blog"*
@Nexus-jg7ev
Pascal helped me understand the true nature of humanity that we are noble and wretched and we need a Savior.
" Through space the universe encompasses and swallows me up like an atom; through thought I comprehend the world."
"The greatness of man is great in that he knows himself to be wretched. A tree does not know itself to be wretched."
"There are only two kinds of men: the righteous who think they are sinners and the sinners who think they are righteous."
@@yiqingwang1437 I don't really see how you can infer from this that you need a saviour
@@epicofatrahasis3775 Damn, you made this case as strong as it could be. Seems like an overkill, but maybe it isn't. And maybe most Christians here would still try to find a way around all this data. That's just cope. I think that it is clear enough that Jesus got this wrong.
You should reach out to Nathan Reynolds’s to see if he will do an interview with you. He has an amazing testimony. He was born and raise in the occult, dealt with DID, lots of medications, nearly committed suicide because of it, etc. He has written his own book called “Snatched from the Flames”. Amazing story, truly
Math was already here, we discovered it!
Older than Noah as he built the ark with numbers
That's sort of nonsense. Reality exists. Humans developed math as a way of representing reality in a way that was useful. So math isn't actually a thing on its own to be "discovered". Instead, we invented it as an abstract tool.
@@majm9309 We write formulas or do our 2+2's, but those formulas exactly explain how something falls within a mathematical construct.
There are mathematicians who would disagree with you, the applicability of math is a great apologetic for design.
Math only works if the equations were already there in the mind who made things that fit perfectly, into mathematical principles.
@@flamingswordapologetics Again, what you're saying is nonsense.
* Reality existed.
* We observed it.
* We saw things like when we put one apple next to another, we had a couple apples.
* We then created a system of numbers to describe that reality: 1+1=2.
* All other formulas from the simplest to the most complex are invented by humans similarly (though not all directly touch reality itself; for example algebra is a way we're using math to effectively solve math problems -- so it's a tool in a tool)
So...
* what I just described doesn't require something "already there in the mind". (With the exception of the tool-in-a-tool, I guess...if you stretched the meaning of "already there in the mind")
* your phrase "something falls within a mathematical construct" is actual nonsense (meaning it's a sentence that doesn't make a coherent point; it's like you threw together a bunch of words without knowing what they mean).
* who cares if mathematicians disagree with me? If I'm wrong you can explain why. So far you're not explaining why -- you're acting like I'm right.
@@flamingswordapologetics No, that's wrong (and doesn't address what I said at all).
Reality existed.
We observed it.
We saw things like when we added one thing to another, we ended up with a couple things.
We formalized that as an abstract system.
We invented math.
We then further developed it over time, based on tools we felt would be useful to us.
So the only minds involved are the humans who developed math (and those who continue to develop it into the future).
It's appropriate that Groothuis is using a 17th century microphone
Lol! That explains it!
Haha, nice!
@@SeanMcDowellYou better learn how to write logic science 101 on a chalk board. You don't know the difference between the law of contradiction, p is non p, versus law of non contradiction, p isn't non p, p is p.
1> non p non conscious non intelligent non being caused the Illogical impossible contradiction effect of
2> conscious intelligent being in the universe
This is p is non p, a false scientific hypothesis period
@@SeanMcDowellevolution depends on p is non p to be true.
1> p non cell caused the p is non p impossible contradiction effect of
2> a cell
p is non p Sean, an ABSOLUTE FALSE SCIENTIFIC HYPOTHESIS, as an apologist, you fail, you embrace contradictions.
@@SeanMcDowellp is non p
1> p non cell caused the impossible contradiction effect of
2> non p, a cell
p is non p a false scientific hypothesis
Why don't you teach logic science properly Sean. Your rhetoric is opinion that needs to be verified by writing the logical facts on a chalk board.
1> p non knowledge caused the Illogical impossible contradiction effect of
2> non p knowledge in the universe
p isn't non p, p is p,
p knowledge caused the non contradiction effect of
p knowledge in the universe
This is amazing knowledge bro, get with the program bro or your family is toast because of your contradictions.
I have a Blaise Pascal French first edition , published in 1657. Rare
Wow! Where'd you get it?
@@brianw.5230 I found it all wrapped up and hidden at the back of an old desk drawer when I was clearing out the family home in February.
Excited about this one.
buy that man a microphone
If you then, BEING EVIL, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him? Luke 11:13.. it is the Ruach haKodesh/the Holy Spirit, Who is the One that leads us and guides into all truth Psalms 119:142.. I am the Vine, you are the branches: He that abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: FOR WITHOUT ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING John 15:5...Hebrews 13:8 Yahshua Messiah the same yesterday, today and forever..
And internet atheists like Aron Ra think they are more intelligent and wiser than staggering geniuses like Pascal and Newton!
How about all the Nobel prize winning physicists who don't believe in a child-killing god? Are they also morons?
And internet theists and apologists think they are more intelligent and wiser than scientists who have spent decades studying and learning.
We do more than Pascal or Newton.....
@user-jr2ed7my1b are you saying the OP point is moot too? If not then you are showing double standards. So?
@user-jr2ed7my1b I didn’t do that. I reversed what the OP said is all.
Why don’t you try again but this time like someone who can engage
His Provincial Letters about the Roman Catholic Jesuit order is a must-read.
Yes, Groothuis returns!
Someone can't afford a microphone lol . Kidding
One day eyes will see, every knee bow every tongue will confess Jesus is Lord Yeshua is Lord! ❤ When He come to the world He put all principalities, power, on these world under His feet when He said I am the Way, I am the Truth, I am the Life! If you deny Yeshua at any shapes or form you deny the way to Salvation and freedom! Free your soul! He is the light were all looking for!
@31:00: Light accepted brings more light.
Light rejected brings darkness. (Rom. 1).
In His light, we see light.
Oh Wow! Why have I never read that one? Thank you.
Still want to red the book, but generally I like Groothuis's books
I’ve always thought that mathematics proves there is a creator, it’s obvious. The laws governing the observable universe were not invented, they were discovered. IE They’ve always been there.
Doesn’t mean a god
@@therick363 you mean from nothing came complex exacting equations that not only explain various processes, but are so accurate they predict them?
@@andrewtsousis3130 no I don’t mean from nothing. Most atheists don’t say from nothing.
@@therick363 there’s only 2 options.
Those same complex equations:
1. Slowly came into existence and “evolved” to be complex and right over time.
2. Instantly appeared and were correct and complex to begin with.
Sorry you have more faith than I do.
@@andrewtsousis3130 address my comment first. If you can’t or won’t then I shall ignore yours as well. Show me you can engage in an honest conversation
I don't believe science is a way to come to knowledge by its own works.
Science relies on axioms to make conclusions. Axioms are self-evident truths. Science is always falsifiable. Truth is never falsifiable.
The only way to come to knowledge is through knowing truth. Then one can begin to gain knowledge.
Fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.
The more one can learn about the creation, the more one is convicted He is real. You can only be in awe and deep reverence before such intelligence and beauty, which is the definition of the Fear of the Lord
Romans 1:20 CSB
For his invisible attributes, that is, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what he has made. As a result, people are without excuse.
Most religions don't condemn Christians so even if Christians have the wrong religion, they may still have a good afterlife or reincarnation according Mormons, Jehovas Witnesses, Buddhism, Hinduism, paganism, Jainism, Daoism, Sikhism and Judaism.
Islam is maybe 50/50 on Christians getting to Muslim Heaven.
God having a son means 2 gods. Trinity, Original sin, Begotten son & Crucifiction are pagan concepts preached by Paul & his church in contradiction to Jesus & his Disciples teachings
Math has its place no denying,but math help him to know there is no God,could be for him but not for Bible believers,a person blind receives sight,deaf hear,dumb speak,leper healed,cancer healed and so on,now who does that if there is no God.
Very interesting content!
this guy's mic is awful. please do mic checks with your guests before your interviews!
Great discussion
Doug’s audio made it harder to listen to
I just wish the audio had enough volume for me to hear your guest.
Yes many Forefathers have great riches nor wealth! Is like...EVEN came to a place! What is this place? Fear
YES!
Please suggest Professor Groothuis upgrade his microphone. It sounds muffled.
That was my bad, sorry!
It’s actually under a paper cup.
Very open-minded of you.😂😂
Peter Kreeft's book on Pascal's Pensees is also excellent!
Can't hear your guest, unfortunately. 😢
All Christians are saints are they not?
Audio
Time come here in front! Yes LORD go remind unto all these ACCUSERS! Time will say, rather not to put all Accusers to be 6 feet under! But given Time who ye Have murdered? These principalities who deceiveth and murderers since in the beginning murmuring among themselves saying the OWNER will not come back! For we have murdered Him! To take HIS SEAT to Exalt! Angels who persevere and heard the WORD will say, bring all the Gods of Men in front! Remember from HIM time given approval! Till time will come back and say LORD! WILL BE DETERMINED
Jansenism was not a “reform movement” describing it that way betrays your Protestant bias and proves you don’t really understand what Jansenism was
Creation itself will say, can't even exist in front of HIM? WHO ARE YE ALL? IN FRONT OF HIM?
Consciousness is fundamental. There is no anthroporgenic deity. Jesus was a Platonist. That was his message.
Came up with his own type of geometry at age 11 in secret. I wish I had Pascal's mind.
Sean, I love your channel. It seems like you need better lights for you. Your face looks a little bit shadowed. God bless you.
Faith is a journey and sometimes we need to start on that journey even if we are possessing little or no faith.
Jesus will help us believe.
Remember thy riches nor wealth trying to control my FEET! Ends HERE
Great conversation.
But, Doug, pls. get a better microphone.
Audio vocal of Doug is not good. His microphone is the culprit?
I'm taking g this as a sign!
Only a few of hours ago, I brought an old Penguin Classics copy of Pensees down from the attic, thinking that I should give it a go. I've has it for a few years, but never attempted it.
Then the next tkmd I open RUclips, this video is 2nd in my recommendations.
Is it a sign, or does the algorithm know me too well?!
I suck at math i guessed it is the reason of my unbelief.
17:42 Romans chapter 1, verses 18 to 20, clearly _do_ outline a natural theology.
It can't be primarily about the flagellum of the bacterium, or the four dimensionality of the DNA, since these have only recently been seen in microscopes. It must be about sth that's visible since the beginning of time (btw, St. Paul is here giving a near approach to a third NT prooftext against Adam being created millions of years after creation began), and as it mentions "from heaven" I think this gives a strong hint that St. Paul had the Prima Via of St. Thomas in mind, in the explicit version that''s Geocentrism, if you look at parallels in Contra Gentes.
The one that unfortunately Riccioli also rejected.
Why did Riccioli reject it? Well, he didn't think heaven as a whole was moving, he thought heavenly bodies were moving through empty space. Each moved by its angel, but not directly by God.
So, to Riccioli, the Sun is directly moved by an angel East to West in 24 hours for a full circle.
To St. Thomas, that body is suspended in a crystalline sphere (which I replace with the aether) moving East to West at 23 h 55 min full circle, while the angel is taking it from West to East within that sphere (or the aether) 366 times slower.
I think in St. Paul's day, good astronomic observation was showing the fatuity of Epicure and Lucrece arguing for Geocentrism without a God, that's "basically whirls in a cosmic fluid" ... the movements were even then too complex and regular.
It can be added, even on Riccioli's view, the heavenly bodies are coordinated, so there must be someone commanding the angelic beings. One would still have a Quinta Via argument for God.
Also recommend the book "Fermat's Enigma" which walks you through the solution, the unification of ALL 4 math disciplines and illustrates the absolute evidence of God.
Can you explain it to me?
The KJV Bible is mathematically encoded. "The man" occurs 316 times...
Quran is cryptographically coded. Check it out
I guess the Torah doesn't mean to much huh?
This guy got a PHd in Surliness.
Mandelbrot …. I love Jesus
Not interested in games at all.
Did sean misspeak ? He said pascal spoke on muhammad in the 17th century, and islam only was around for a decade ? Well no islam was around from 7th century to pascals around the 17th century so maby he ment centuries plural, today islam has been around upper of 1.400 years.
He meant millennium
@@jacobvictorfishergotta watch these Aplogiticist... They can be so slippery
Islam is a child of the whore of Babylon: the Roman Church and the Antichrist Pope.
Islam is lie
Just more arguments that seem to go nowhere.
*Pascal's Wager* is of course bad math. It's an admirable approach to attempt to make the mathematical case for belief in a god. However the key error is not considering every possibility, where for every idea "believe in god x to receive infinite reward" there's an opposite idea "believe in god x and you'll be infinitely punished". So all infinite-positive outcomes are balanced against an equal number of infinitely-negative outcomes, which means there isn't an argument to place one's "wager" on any particular result. Instead, you'd place it based on the cost of the result, and believing most gods carries more of a cost than non-belief. Meaning True Pascal's Wager is an argument for atheism.
*Natural theology* is bad science. We don't have evidence of any gods. We don't even have evidence of the appearance of design (talking specifically about what we've observed outside Earth). Worse, if we did have that evidence we'd also need evidence the cause was a god (science isn't pretending to know unknown things; either we have evidence justifying a belief, or we shouldn't hold that belief). So we don't have a case for gods.
The Mandelbrot equation is pretty amazing . We didnt really know much until computers made it amazing. The infinite nature of it kinda represents god mathematically.
@@mace41canuck So are you not really arguing a god exists then? Because math is abstract, and the very end of what you just described is "representing god mathematically". The letters "god" represent god in the English language, but when we discuss whether something exists we're not looking for a "representation" (an idea in a mind). We're looking for evidence of *the actual thing sharing reality with us.*
@@majm9309 oh i know God exists, that i have no doubt of.
@@mace41canuck Evidence is our only reliable way of knowing anything, and you haven't presented evidence of a god.
So it feels like you don't actually know one exists.
Certainly if you knew a god existed, we wouldn't expect you to bring up some abstract idea, and weirdly call it "god" (which makes two mistakes: (a) that you seem to be trying to redefine god isn't existence -- a bit like arguing elves exist because I call my coffee mug by the word "elf", and (b) that what you redefined it to was _only an abstract idea,_ so you didn't seem to be arguing a god exists at all -- because we don't say things exist if they're just ideas; Harry Potter is an idea, but we don't say Potter exists; or if we do it's understood because Potter is fictional that we're just saying "this is an idea people have in their minds")
@@majm9309 its up to you to find god and him you .. praying for you … have a good one
9:15 Basically every second non peasant child in Europe was homeschooled these times.
The great Mozart received homeschooling (if you heard he went to the Piarist High School, it's actually his son who did that).
👍
Take the wager!
The premise of Pascal's Wager is a theistic claim of: “My god is so stupid that you can fool him by pretending to believe.”
AND the wager assumes god wants to be worshipped and discriminates against those who don't worship him.
If I was God, I would be happy just being God. Nothing could bother me. I certainly wouldn't be bothered by the opinions of beings infinitely inferior to myself.
It's almost like the ideas of Gods were based on the tinpot despotic leaders of the late bronze age, who demamded fealty.
@psychologicalprojectionist
you probably missed the part where God says he is a Father. Do you have children? Do you not care that you children chose you and love you? Do a father not do everything he knows to be good for his upbringings even when they don't feel like it at the time? Your version of God is not the God of the bible, all he ever wants from us is to be free to chose him, not us to be puppets. The creator of the universe wants a relationship with you, ask him your questions directly, He always listens and responds.
@@wayklm9471 Fatherhood or Godfatherhood? And Part 1, 2 or 3?
Seriously, there is nothing universal about being a father. Either in nature or in humans, fathers (and we should include mothers) play different roles in their children’s lives. Male fish, never knowingly meet their offspring. And as a father, I don’t expect my kids to worship me, in fact quite the reverse.
And I am an atheist, I have no God. The God you accused me of Strawmaning is the god whose holy book commanded to keep a day special for him and not to worship anything else but Him. And contrary to what you say, the commandments are in the Bible, this is the god of the bible. The same god who cannot forgive us (in spite of his omnipotence) for a ‘sin’ of fruit theft made by distant ancestors without committing Filicide and demanding our belief in it. The God of heaven and Hell, that has been preached about for almost 2000 years!
@@wayklm9471 A father who sends his son to be sacrificed, what an arsehole!
The conclusions sometimes dazzle me. There must be a creator, so the bible is true. That kind of logic wont even get you an E on your list.
Pascal's Inverse Wager
Any god will readily see if one’s adherence to faith is mere public sham, and not genuinely felt, but only so on the off-chance there is an eternal reward. A god would likely hold such a person to a higher standard of worthiness.
In contrast, the non-believer who feels unable to accept a god's existence without compelling evidence, but regardless pursues a laudable life of respecting others, and care for themselves and others, can only be excused and accepted into eternal communion by a compassionate god.
Amen! People who claim to know things that others don't and teach it to the rest of us with condemnation are despicable!
Are they not also human like us and make the mistakes?
Book of Job 19:28-29
How is truth only of instrument value if there is no God? Truth is intrinsically valuable, whether or not there’s a God. What Sean says at 49:26 is a complete non sequitur.
Math convinces me that there’s no Christian god. We know from math that the Noah’s flood story never happened as the Earth would need 5 times as much water as it has.
A God that exists outside of time and that "can do all things" couldn't multiply the water that earth has by five times and then reduce the water that earth has by that same factor? You're not dealing with God as He is merely projecting your own limitations as a contingent creature and criticizing the result.
@@wills9392 So we still know that the story as described is physically impossible. Believe it all you like, just don't try sizing up against science with that sort of thing.
You are making assumptions about the geography of the pre-flood world. What was the height of the highest mountian? 52:56 What was the depth of the sea? What was the percentage of sea to land? Since we don't know and can't know this is a falasis argument
@@glenmegargee3973 Congrats, you just transferred the impossibility to the heat released by all those shifting tectonic plates.
@@glenmegargee3973let’s put it this way. There’s no scientific or physical evidence to support a world wide flood
Pascals wager was a totally dumb and illogical wager. I'm an atheist (a real atheist) so I would need to lie to accept Pascals wager and if god couldn't pick up I was lying, that god is an idiot.
There's a mainstream theist trend towards invoking god created mathematics as a reason god must be real. I've pointed this out many times: Modern mathematics would not exist without a zero "0". The zero was invented by a Shiva believing Hindu so, if you want to invoke mathematics as a proof of god, please limit it to having proved a Hindu god.
*The Enuma Elish would later be the inspiration for the Hebrew scribes who created the text now known as the biblical Book of Genesis.* Prior to the 19th century CE, the Bible was considered the oldest book in the world and its narratives were thought to be completely original. In the mid-19th century CE, however, European museums, as well as academic and religious institutions, sponsored excavations in Mesopotamia to find physical evidence for historical corroboration of the stories in the Bible. ***These excavations found quite the opposite, however, in that, once cuneiform was translated, it was understood that a number of biblical narratives were Mesopotamian in origin.***
*Famous stories such as the Fall of Man and the Great Flood were originally conceived and written down in Sumer,* translated and modified later in Babylon, and reworked by the Assyrians ***before they were used by the Hebrew scribes for the versions which appear in the Bible.***
***In revising the Mesopotamian creation story for their own ends, the Hebrew scribes tightened the narrative and the focus but retained the concept of the all-powerful deity who brings order from chaos.*** Marduk, in the Enuma Elish, establishes the recognizable order of the world - *just as God does in the Genesis tale* - and human beings are expected to recognize this great gift and honor the deity through service.
*"Enuma Elish - The Babylonian Epic of Creation - Full Text - World History Encyclopedia"*
*"Sumerian Is the World's Oldest Written Language | ProLingo"*
*"Sumerian Civilization: Inventing the Future - World History Encyclopedia"*
("The Sumerians were the people of southern Mesopotamia whose civilization flourished between c. 4100-1750 BCE."
"Ancient Israelites and their origins date back to 1800-1200 BCE.")
*"The Myth of Adapa - World History Encyclopedia"*
Also discussed by Professor Christine Hayes at Yale University in her 1st lecture of the series on the Hebrew Bible from 8:50 to 14:30 minutes, lecture 3 from 28:30 to 41:35 minutes, lecture 4 from 0:00 up to 21:30 minutes and 24:00 up to 35:30 minutes and lecture 7 from 24:20 to 25:10 minutes.
From a Biblical scholar:
"Many stories in the ancient world have their origins in other stories and were borrowed and modified from other or earlier peoples. *For instance, many of the stories now preserved in the Bible are* ***modified*** *versions of stories that existed in the cultures and traditions of Israel’s* ***older*** *contemporaries.* Stories about the creation of the universe, a cataclysmic universal flood, digging wells as land markers, the naming of important cultic sites, gods giving laws to their people, and even stories about gods decreeing the possession of land to their people were all part of the cultural and literary matrix of the ancient Near East. *Biblical scribes freely* ***adopted and modified*** *these stories as a means to express their own identity, origins, and customs."*
*"Stories from the Bible"* by Dr Steven DiMattei, from his website *"Biblical Contradictions"*
------------------------------------------------------------------
In addition, look up the below articles.
*"Yahweh was just an ancient Canaanite god. We have been deceived! - Escaping Christian Fundamentalism"*
*"Debunking the Devil - Michael A. Sherlock (Author)"*
*"The Greatest Trick Religion Ever Pulled: Convincing Us That Satan Exists | Atheomedy"*
*"Zoroastrianism And Persian Mythology: The Foundation Of Belief"*
(Scroll to the last section: Zoroastrianism is the Foundation of Western Belief)
*"10 Ways The Bible Was Influenced By Other Religions - Listverse"*
*"January | 2014 | Atheomedy"* - Where the Hell Did the Idea of Hell Come From?
*"Retired bishop explains the reason why the Church invented "Hell" - Ideapod"*
Watch *"The Origins of Salvation, Judgement and Hell"* by Derreck Bennett at Atheologica
(Sensitive theists should only watch from 7:00 to 17:30 minutes as evangelical Christians are lambasted. He's a former theist and has been studying the scholarship and comparative religions for over 15 years)
*"Top Ten Reasons Noah’s Flood is Mythology - The Sensuous Curmudgeon"*
*"Forget about Noah's Ark; There Was No Worldwide Flood | Bible Interp"*
*"The Search for Noah’s Flood - Biblical Archaeology Society"*
*"Eridu Genesis - World History Encyclopedia"*
*"The Atrahasis Epic: The Great Flood & the Meaning of Suffering - World History Encyclopedia"*
Watch *"How Aron Ra Debunks Noah's Flood"*
(8 part series debunking Noah's flood using multiple branches of science)
*"The Adam and Eve myth - News24"*
*"Before Adam and Eve - Psychology Today"*
*"Gilgamesh vs. Noah - Wordpress"*
*"Old Testament Tales Were Stolen From Other Cultures - Griffin"*
*"Parallelism between “The Hymn to Aten” and Psalm 104 - Project Augustine"*
*"Studying the Bible"* - by Dr Steven DiMattei
(This particular article from a critical Biblical scholar highlights how the authors of the Hebrew Bible used their *fictional* god as a mouthpiece for their own views and ideologies)
*"How do we know that the biblical writers were* ***not*** *writing history?"* -- by Dr Steven DiMattei
*"Contradictions in the Bible | Identified verse by verse and explained using the most up-to-date scholarly information about the Bible, its texts, and the men who wrote them"* -- by Dr. Steven DiMattei
So someone tells a story to quite a few people who pass the story down to quite a few other people, and you’re gonna see a lot of changes, starting out minor, but probably getting a little bigger. Then the original person comes back and tells the story Word for Word at a later time, and it’s right because that was the creator of the story. Catching on yet?
1 Corinthians 1:18-19
1 Corinthians 1: 20-21
Proverbs 111:10
Truly desperate.
Curious how this supposedly brilliant man, failed so hard with his "wager". He may have been smart in math, but not in how he argues for his imaginary friend. It assumes many things with no evidence. it assumes you lose nothing if you are wrong, but you do lose resources and time.
When christains bring up Pascal, just be ready for them to run when shown how the wager fails their claims.
Wow! You posted this before the video. Understandably, you might know a lot about Pascal but you might learn something new that answers your question as to whether or not he is illogical or he "failed." It's not logical to answer a question or a video without at first seeing the evidence or lack thereof. In fact, it shows a closed mind. Resources and time are lost on other issues. Losing resources and time is part of life as he argues in his sections about pleasure and pastime. One does not lose a lot of time by assuming there is a God. An instance of deciding for God might make one lose pleasure and pastime but as Hegel and other philosophers have pointed out, there are many "benefits" in being virtuous, for one's well-being and for one's health, reputation, wealth... even if one is an atheist. His wager apparently worked with quite a few people. Upshot: if you read the book of Proverbs in the Bible or any book on ethics or behavior, you should know that you should have posted your comment after the video started. You show a lack of knowledge in such a small thing and you're criticizing Pascal?
Good evening to you too
This so-called loss of resources and time is minuscule and insignificant. It doesn’t take much time nor many resources in the grand scheme of things to follow Christian beliefs. Besides, there are many benefits for both yourself and others.
Did you even listen to what Dr. Groothuis said? Dr. Groothuis said it isn't an argument for God's existence, but a motivation for why one should consider his existential situation.
@@josephbrown9685 The premise of Pascal's Wager is a theistic claim of: “My god is so stupid that you can fool him by pretending to believe.”
The premise of Pascal's Wager is a theistic claim of: “My god is so stupid that you can fool him by pretending to believe.”
Such a superficial, meaningless statement.
@@michaelbabbitt3837 True, but don't feel bad, work on it and you can improve.
If the universe and all it's functions are purely material, atheism and theism are both impossible. Since a material universe is all there is, it can't step outside of itself, which means it can't conceive of immaterial things like gods.
@@gregorytoews8316 So atheism would be the norm!
@@mirandahotspring4019 I guess one would be an atheist in the same sense a dog is an atheist. Dogs have never heard of things like gods.
Believing in God is easy compared to believing in the God of the Bible which contains fantastical stories, contradictions, and is subject to multiple interpretations.
Believing in God is easy compared to being an atheist where you literally cannot defend any of your positions and your only truths are subjective. Is it “make baseless claims as if they’ve been proven true” time? If so I’m down for that
Honest question, how exactly would the actions of a god not be perceived by anything less than fantastical? Surely a god could do things beyond our human comprehension obviously.
So your God is incapable of " fantastical" action? He must be a minor god, as in Paganism.
@@rogermenendez4052 What fantastical thing has your God done in the last 2000 years. Just one will do.
@@jerseyjim9092How about raising His Son from the dead?