The modded and seeded runs are important simply because they prove that it is indeed possible to finish _at all_ using the tools available to you in the game.
Yeah, really, I get that there are some people in the challenge run / speed run community that are purists, but resetting thousands of times just for RNG just sounds laborious. There are even many games where mods or tools are allowed specifically because the majority of runners agree it makes the runs more fun for runners.
@@akamesama it's generally because the argument is the same as 3rd party addons for MMOs. If you're not using what is natively supported by the game, then you're playing with a distinct advantage over anyone else, and the level of play needs to either meet this new standard or it has to ban it to make the playing fields fair. So the generally agreed standard is that if it's within the confines of the game, then it's legitimate to the speedrun. This is also why macros are such a widely debated topic. It's really not a good 1:1 because a lot of the time there's IMPROVEMENTS to the speedrunnning community with macros and resets that cut out a lot of the RNG of games.
@@akamesama I don't know anything about the Hades community so maybe this is already a thing, but in Minecraft speedrunning there are separate categories for seeded runs and pure RNG runs. It just needs to be made clear to people that a seeded run shouldn't ever be something to be ashamed of, especially in a situation like this where - let's face it - a set seed is practically _mandatory._
yeah, resetting a game 250 times just to get a good start is not fun at all. It's not a matter of skill, a monkey can do that. It should be more about actually beating the game. And if it is only theoretically possible with one weapon and set of boons, then what's the point in resetting the game 10000 times? it should be more about the skill. If you are resetting game at the start most of the time, then you are doing the same as the modded game would do, but you just waste your time.
@@bixmcgoo5355dafuq is your problem? In this video he said he hoped someone can beat it even if it’s nearly impossible. Why are you so triggered? Nothing better to do with your life?
It is insane to see the odds of getting the necessary tools just to even have a viable run on 64 heat, thanks for doing all the maths for us. Absolute lad!
If anything, this video makes Jade/AngeL1C’s achievement that much more impactful and impressive. Thank you for explaining why the unmodded run is such a big deal
Thank you so much! I'm so happy for Angel and the entire community, I hope this video stands as a testament for how hard they had to work to get that win.
I think a simple way to put it is, you cant mathematically deal enough damage to beat all the enemies under tight deadline. Even if you were invulnerable, you literally cant hit enough times without certain boons boosting your damage
i would honestly say that this is a huge oversight on that specific challenge, i understand that it's there only for those who want it but what is exactly the point if it is just impossible to overcome?
@@reyalfa18 The developers never intended for anyone to activate all the challenges at once, or at least never intended for anyone to win like that. The game stops giving you new bounties at 20 heat and gives its last cosmetic reward at 32, which is still only half the challenge options.
@@reyalfa18 i mean its about having the variety, you can have tight deadline on max and beat a run easily, its when its combined with 100% max health increase, 2 invuln hits, no mirror of night traits ETC that the math gets kinda crazy, i run most of my hades runs on max deadline but i dont have the rest on, the game stops rewarding you after like 32 heat and i think thats pretty much as high as the devs really intended anyone to go, but theres not really a reason to take the option of going above 32 heat out if you already have to create the variety of different options, basically they added the possible options for variety not intending them all to be used at the same time, theres no real reason to remove the option of higher difficulty since some people enjoy that.
@@TubeytimeTechnically they are wrong. The devs intended for heat 64 to be played and even made it possible, if highly unlikely, to win heat 64. They just didn't bother making any unlocks for it because eventually the amount of people getting those rewards would be single digits. Intend was the wrong word, but it's also wrong to say humans weren't intended to leave Earth. We have the capability, otherwise we never would have left Earth, but intent implies design which means belief in God which means belief that we were all made with the express purpose of eventually leaving Earth. Either intent didn't apply to the creation of humans or we were all created with the intent of leaving Earth, depending on your beliefs. Either way, saying we weren't intended to leave Earth is demonstrably false.
I think having a difficulty that's out of reach is perfectly valid. The amount of combinations you can have for 32 heat are insane, and that's the point where the devs say "Whoa, impressive! So, any way you choose to push yourself with this is up to you from now on.". People do self-imposed challenges all the time, but when the game gives you additional tools to do so, people complain about the devs being lazy. What people want is a "highest difficulty" that is still fun, and the truth of the matter is that everyone has different boundaries, so asking the dev team to improve the difficulty tuning for everyone is a little silly.
True enough. On the flipside however, there is a bit of a case to be made for "protecting players from themselves". After all it is known that, if given the chance and not properly disincentivized, people will optimize the fun out of games. To give a specific example, I think the Approval Process modifier should have been cut from the game. The only way it adds difficulty is by completely removing interesting/meaningful choices in build making/adaption, thereby lowering the skill ceiling, replacing it with RNG, and making the game feel worse to play. You could more-or-less adequately emulate the "difficulty" of this by just having a modifier where it flips a coin at the end of every zone and if it comes up heads, it force-restarts your run.
@@BackwardsPancake In some cases I would say it's inevitable for people to start over-optimising. That's the danger of having very deep and engaging mechanics along with loads of player choice. For me personally Hades was not irresponsible in how they handled the gameplay options for the postgame. It's not like a predatory mobile game, and I'm only sometimes tempted to give the extreme heat levels a go. When it comes to Approval Process I'd say it has a place for when you're trying to go boonless with as high a heat as you can handle. In the lower heat levels you can from time to time get away with letting the Fates decide a little, too. It's pretty funny when you manage to beat the game with a bizarre build, and I have found out about interesting boon interactions because of it, but I do agree that it is otherwise very oppressive.
I'm actually studying game design right now and couldn't agree more. Trying to guess or balance games based on the premise of "pleasing everyone" is ludicrous. You'll be lucky if most players play the game as you intended at all let alone find similar challenge/engagement from it. Balance is simply not possible in 'most' games, best you can hope for is 'close enough' really. At the end of the day everyone has a different definition of "Fun" and as subjective as that is, it's near impossible to quantify. In terms of variable difficulty I think more games could do with letting the players have more agency over their own risk vs. rewards scalers like is seen with Hades here. Perfect example is Destiny, Bungie insists on having a variety of difficulties that don't really feel rewarding other than the bragging rights of clears, fast times, titles, etc... The idea that they could let the players scale up the difficulty as desired for scaling rewards is something they dabbled in but removed. I honestly miss that system and wish they'd have doubled down and refined it instead of scrapping it.
More recognition and praise should go out to modded runners. They aren't really "cheating" or "hacking" the game, only making the RNG predictable in order to more efficiently grind runs. They still have to have the skill to carry out those runs, which are nearly impossible. Even if a perfect theoretical run came about unmodded, a person would have to play 24/7 continuously in order to get it. EDIT: Apparently I hit a nerve with this comment and I'm not going to bother arguing with people; however I will say it's important to acknowledge the time and effort that runners, modded or not, spend on this game. Whether or not you think modding is cheating, the objective truth is that it allows for people to accomplish an otherwise impossible goal. Modding allows us to break the boundaries of human ability without spending years of our life trying to find that perfect run. It is easy to dismiss runners as robots with infinite time, but they're just as human as you are, with lives and passions outside of Hades. Be kind to them, because their efforts are just as real as any "authentic" run. EDIT 2: Congrats Angel for beating 64 heat unmodded!!!
@@kanal7523 Yea in some games I think you can argue for a purism like minecraft or something of that nature. But for this game it's literally just not worth the effort. The modded runs make it so that it's actually playable. Who wants to spend 85 hours resetting? What is the achievement in that? It's actually nuts that some runners have been able to defeat this insanely hard mode, huge props to them.
If I recall correctly, lore wise the reason there is a heat system is because hades wants the underworld to have a tight security so that no one will be able to escape. It only makes sense the higher heat you have, the more difficult and impossible it is to escape, I love how the devs were able to create a system that makes sense both in the lore and gameplay.
It makes PERFECT sense that only once in a blue moon would there be one person to escape. Just like in the greek myths. But also that is not the question. The question is, DOES the game reward you for it, is there like a special cut scene built in if you do it, do you get to maybe roam a bit among the living, do you get a special item or something, because that would be really neat. That footage would be worth to see in this lifetime yet. Makes me wonder what the challenge in Hades II will be, I'm so hyped
@@Nemamka That's not THE question, that's YOUR question. And I can't claim to know for certain, but I think given the fact that people have made all these mods (which involves going into the game code and assets and all that), they would know if there were a secret item or cutscene or area that nobody's unlocked, and somebody probably would have modded the game to unlock it and see what it was like. Those things haven't happened, and the expert consensus seems to be that there are no special rewards beyond heat 32. If people are grinding these runs, it isn't (and shouldn't be) because they expect the game to reward them. The accomplishment is the reward, which is why people shouldn't do runs like these if the accomplishment wouldn't be worth it to them.
Another aspect that is hard to quantify is the stress of repetitive movements on your hands. After speedrunning Path of Pain in Hollow Knight I can safely say that almost all top runners suffer from wrist pain and require breaks and constant stretches to ensure no serious injuries. Even then there's still a chance because of how many clicks Hades requires per run.
I'm not sure how Hades is on keyboard, but at least for controller I find the game to be exceptionally taxing on my hand muscles, more than basically any other 2d action roguelite I can think of. Other games I could probably play for 5+ hours, but with Hades my hands are already starting to ache after a single run! Anyway, my point was just that it seems like this game requires either more movements or harder movements than other games in the genre.. I wonder if that's the case or not!
@@Slival_ LOL before I saw yours, I left a comment that said almost the exact same thing but for controller, and I said I didn't know how it felt on keyboard. Glad we got our bases covered! Turns out Hades is just kinda painful to play.. I suppose that's oddly fitting for the subject matter😂
@@idontwantahandlethough I notice wrist pain whenever I play very challenging games that also require many inputs. When I have to concentrate fully on the game I don't notice uncomfortable positions and just press harder than necessary. If playing such games was my job it could probably be possible to train myself to pay attention to these things regardless.
It's interesting, I do think and understand how the concept of something literally being unbeatable could probably upset people. But it also does make a bit of flavor sense. Sure, Hades does need to have weaknesses...especially when he is pulling punches. But full force, getting out of the underworld really should be like a one in a million chance. And while that may not be exactly what it is, making it that ball bustingly hard to the point of tears is what trying to escape death *realistically* should be.
@@kingacrisius well demigod. Zag has an in-game conversation with Achilles I believe about how he would be immune to the flames of asphodel if he weren’t half god
As an optional thing it's pretty great. If this was the baseline though the game would be horrid. I'm glad to see the development understood this and didn't let realism take over the necessity of players convenience.
im just glad to clear 32 heat once in a while. you gotta really love this game to attempt a challenge like this, major props to the guys who did the successful runs this year.
@@customch33s32 I love all three things and managed it to reach 36, without mods. And my only motivation was to improve my relationships and to upgrade my weapons. XD Though it was pretty tricky to manage this level because I had to experiment a lot.
i tried this run 10 times (well, 10 runs with zeus's special and explosive return in tartarus) and i got pretty good rng once, made it to the elysium boss room but i had like 10 hp left and 20-30 secs to beat the boss, so ofc i died and then i gave up, this run is so unreasonable only a madman would beat it
@@hamchurger4566 i got extremely lucky and even that wasn't enough, i can't imagine how much luck and dedication one needs to reach Hades and beat him in time. And the pressure after you beat the hydra and get to Elysium is so insane you just start making a bunch of mistakes that ultimately cost you the run. I may be a madman for reaching Elysium but then the person who actually beats Hades is several magnitudes more mad xd
Really puts it into perspective, mechanical skill and game knowledge goes out the window when faced with these odds. At that level of heat, I'd consider modding and seeding the boons you *need* to be a necessary evil. After all, it's really only evening the odds; player skill is what actually matters, not the ridiculous amount of resets required before you get to actually play the game.
@@diethylmalonate eh, if the game has multiple possible strategies then i think you shouldnt be allowed to seed or mod runs, but if theres only one way to beat the game and it requires absurd RNG to even START running it i think its just worth it
BTW for anyone scrolling through, Retrash is one of the legends of Hades High Heat running, known for mastery across tons of aspects, and a specific talent at clearing high heat EM4 fights with ridiculously underpowered builds.
Despite the hilarious timing of this video, considering what happened so soon after, big thanks and massive props to Haelian for putting this together. I love seeing the actual statistical breakdown for stuff like this (even if it is massively discouraging for a filthy casual like myself 😅), and it just goes to show how much dedication and love for the game he has.
8/2/23 UPDATE: 64 Heat unmodded, unseeded has been BEATEN by AngeL1C just 8 days after this video was posted! All of the math stated in this video is still correct and it just so happened one of only two people in the WORLD to have the proven ability to beat 64 Heat had the stars align. Insane display of skill, make sure you watch it: ruclips.net/video/0mo-kXjasZs/видео.html
Honestly I consider this legit. Grinding for a chance at a run is completely pointless and doesn't constitute a display of skill. As long as this run is unseeded, and that the seed generated by this modded game would yield the same result in the vanilla game, then there's no reason not accept it.
Excellent scripting and analysis here, Haelian. I particularly appreciated that you highlighted the sheer small probability of things going right and the ridiculously high skill level needed even when the stars align for a good run (or you mod it to happen that way), just to pre-empt the inevitable counter-argument (flawed though it may be) of modding/seeding being a "cheap" way to complete max heat (as @sajanramanathan also pointed out). Cheers!
what I've learned from speedrunning and challenge run communities is that no matter how impossible some game challenge seems, someone will eventually do it
This reminds me of the hollowknight boss added by mods that's meant to be impossible. Yet they've updated it multiple times because someone beat it. It's called any radiance, I believe.
@@astralaegis6283 yeah tbh I can see a madlad just practice modded 64heat runs until they beat it really consistently and then grind the hypothetical 85 hours to get that run
I really appreciate putting numbers on it here. When people complain about modded speedruns being “cheated” I can just point them to this video. I love running unmodded for any heat but it would have to be your full time job for you to maybe complete 64 heat unmodded within a few years.
Not to mention, even if your full time job is streaming Hades, how many viewers will watch a streamer doing the same reset every 45 seconds for hours on end? You'd quickly lose all but the most diehard viewers, and they're not going to be enough to support you
Tight deadline + routine inspection + approval process all together at full strength really does away with any chance of anything other than blind luck and the best possible build, I'm getting hives just thinking about it 😬
It's clear to me that some of these boons were meant to be alternate choices to each other, and not used at the same time. In particular maxed Approval Process turns the game into silly RNG. It's not "the hardest mode", it's just a unique challenge mode.
Sweet vid - as a former high heat player, I believe the math flashed before my eyes and let me get out when I could LOL. It's not even that it's challenging - it's just unlikely and not tremendously fun. My biggest criticism of Hades is probably encapsulated by the trouble of its difficulty system. The game design sort of implies a possibility of winning, even though it's clearly so impractical that nobody really should even think about beating the game at its highest difficulty. Games like Slay the Spire (or other roguelikes with very high difficulty) are always beatable from a practical level at the highest difficulties, and that's where the game can ultimately find its balance - I love the modular heat system, and I'm hoping we see a much more balanced and practical challenge for players in the follow-up.
I honestly appreciate games where the max difficulty is past where the theoretical "best" is, because as time goes on, the best will get better. I'd rather difficulty be the limiting factor than patience. Nuclear throne I think does a good job of scaling up difficulty over loops, while the binding of isaac definitely doesn't.
The trouble with devs meeting to decide what is and isn't possible is that they often underestimate the potential of good players to beat even intense challenges. Sure it turns out that 64 heat is practically unbeatable but there's no way they could have known that going in. The fact that people can beat 50+ heat is incredible on its own and is way more than I would have guessed was possible
I think at the end of the day, having the ability to go even harder despite it not being possible is nicer than being unable to even attempt it at all.
I don't really think the game design implies its possible since you don't even really get rewards past what 32 heat, To me that implies they don't expect a reasonable person to get past that point. I love the modular difficulty but I think its incompatible with making the game realistically beatable with everything turned up.
Great video! I feel like it's the lack of mirror that really does you in here, having extra dashes or death defiances would go so far in making this kind of run without perfect boon and hammer luck, but without that you're just so limited! I've tried 64 heat for fun and never even got out of tartarus lol
I feel like an extra 1-2 minutes for tight deadline would give players a chance and also increase build diversity having those spare seconds. Might be fun to see a new balance patch before Hades II comes out.
@@Rfxorcist doubtful, game was never really intended to be done at 64 so i dont think they really care, not in a bad way i just think it would actually be a waste of time
@@joehicks929 Yeah, I mean how many people would attempt 64 heat even after a balance patch? Only a handful of players are anywhere close to good enough to try it so why spend a bunch of time doing that when you have a new game you're developing?
Man, you're the reason i managed to progress as far as I got into the game. Haven't touched it in a year, life's pretty intense at the moment. Just watching this video makes me want to play again! You really know how to share your passion ^^
good vid! this doesn't change the math, but it was recently found that other specials are viable too, Mysterra cleared non-hell mode 63 heat with modded epic Aphrodite and Artemis' specials, and at that heat level, the 1 missing heat just lets you live one potentially lethal hit per run. the math is still similar, since you still need to get the epic special, hammer, etc etc
@@Ornithopter470 If you equip a God's keepsake, you guarantee that the first boon you get is from that god. And you should 100% do that from the start, since it also makes it more likely you'll get the Epic boon which you need
And keep in mind that the odds for each run are completely independent of each other. The odds of a plausible run are 1 in 6,802 attempts, which resets with every run. You could do 50,000 runs and never even get the minimum setup you need to realistically get out of Tartarus. Or you could get it on your very first run. Good luck!
Yea people don't understand that 1/6802 doesn't mean 1 guranteed in 6802. I believe the actual math is about a 65% chance or so to hit a 1 in X in X amount of attempts.
@@blablabla4513 did the math out of sheer boredom, turns out that as X -> infinity the probability of getting a 1 in X chance in X attempts approaches 1 - 1/e, which is about 63.2121%. Your chances get worse as X increases, going from 100% when X = 1 to 75% when X = 2 to 70% when X = 3, but the chances quickly stagnate towards the limit of 63%. When X = 11 the chance is already slightly below 65%.
This is such a top tier video. Clear, had good background for fresh players, and presents things in both math and practicality. I was initially disappointed to see "modded" in so many speedruns but realized the immense challenge and the limited scope of the mod. Just forcing your first boon and hammer to have options. This video would have made it so much more clear and satisfying right away. Great, great video!
Nice, I've beaten 32 heat with the Zeus shield and indeed it's the best thing to have when so many restrictions are in place. Can't fathom how to ever approach 64, props to the modded folks who have done it!
I don't know if you'll see this but I'm super glad I found your channel. The roguelite genre has become one of my favorites in recent years and it's cool to see people be passionate enough to make entire channels based on it.
A bit late to the party, haha. Thanks for the wonderful video, Hael! Really lovely to put it in perspective the sheer odds a max heat clear would take.
Thanks for doing this vid, Haelian! High Heat is such an interesting realm of Hades running and a lot of people aren't exposed to it as much. I hope some new runners will be inspired by this, although I doubt anyone is planning on unmodded 64 heat anytime soon Maybe one day someone with unlimited free time and unbreakable mental will be able to sit there and do runs until they beat it
I don't mind the impossible challenge. It reminds me of other such challenges that weren't ever designed with being beaten in mind. I'd say beating everything but Deadline should be seen as the ultimate goal, with tests of speed being the meta records for each aspect and not being left to a death clock.
It is cosmically funny how quickly this was accomplished after the video was posted. It’s amazing to rewatch and remember all the reasons that run was so crazy difficult, skill intensive, and lucky. Kudos to you for making a video that caused a huge group of people to care about a specific way to run Hades they’d never heard of beforehand, right before it became really relevant.
The fact that it is *possible* at all, is no less than a huge testament to the amazing work the gamedesigners and devs did with Hades. There's simply nothing more to say. Yes, it's not feasible to grind out the hours for the big flipping "maybe" of a possible run, but the fact that there *is* a mathematically *reasonable* possibility of a run occuring that is beatable and max heat while not forgetting about the enormous amounts of degrees of freedoms that are part of this calculation, is absolutely mindblowing. Hades is a lesson in excellence on all accounts.
The way you were talking and the production value of this video makes it seem like you knew it was going to get a lot of views, and what do you know it did, congrats! Love these kinds of videos keep it up
It was just beaten :) Still this video is even more relevant than ever now, shows just how much of a remarkable feat this really is! Crazy to see how far the Hades community can push this game. Can’t wait for Hades 2!
Great video explanation!! It’s really hard to understand how truly difficult max heat is until you beat/play heats in the 50s, bananas that people even beat it with the minimal mods they used.
I know it's almost entirely due to the RNG, but it's wild to think that an impossible challenge like this even exists at a time when seemingly every other impossible task in a video game has been beaten by someone
a small note about the math you used. while percentages (like 0.0147%) are mathematically equivalent to their fractional forms (like 1/6802), a probability of 0.0147% does not strictly imply that 6802 attempts is guaranteed to give you 1 occurrence of the result you need. rather, what it means is that over a VERY LARGE number of attempts, approximately 1 out of every 6802 attempts will be the result you want. intuitively speaking, even for something like a coin flip, it's possible to flip a coin several times and not get heads even once. that is, even if the probability of getting heads on a coin flip is 50%, or 1 in 2, flipping a coin twice does not guarantee that you will get at least one heads. similarly, it is fully possible to make 6802 (or more) attempts and not receive the combination of boons/circumstances required to complete the run. a more rigorous way of calculating guaranteed outcomes with percentages like this is to first define a percent probability that we determine to be sufficiently equivalent to a guarantee. likelihood percentages of 95% or 99% are commonly used. in other words, you want to calculate the number of attempts required to achieve a 95% (or 99%) likelihood of the desired outcome occurring. there are several ways to do this, but the easiest is with a variation of the expected value formula. if the probability of the perfect storm of run-enabling events occurring in a single run is 0.0147%, then that means that the probability of them not occurring in a single run is 1-0.000147 = 0.999853 (99.9853%). since individual runs are independent events, you multiply the probabilities together. that is, you multiply 0.0999853 by itself for each run. 0.999853^3 would be equivalent to the probability of the perfect storm of events NOT occurring in three runs. to calculate the number of times you need to get a 95% likelihood of the event occurring, you basically solve for x in the following equation: (1-0.95)=(0.999853)^x. in this case, x = 20378 attempts. if you want 99% likelihood, that number jumps to 31326 attempts.
I'd argue that since it's the only part of the game without a fixed number of chambers, perhaps everytime you hit a dead end in the satyr tunnels you should gain an extra time. (or perhaps give Super Dad his own timer)
It could be super nice if developers added an option to re-do an attempt and directly load into 1st room with same setup, it would save the 45 seconds to try it
It's been awhile since RUclips has fed me some hades content from you. I remember going for 32 heat because I thought that gave a steam achievement only to realize the game was platinumed days before the 32 heat attempts even started 😂. Some of the modifiers like approval process soured the experience when trying to up the heat in a manner that didn't just make enemies tanks and the player a glass needle. Can't wait to see what Hades 2 brings us.
Just because it has now been done doesn't mean I don't think the points made in this video stand. An insanely high starting line that you can't afford to mess up on once granted.
In summary, the reason it never happened is because it is not a fun way to play the game. Hades is a game where we have to learn and adapt to each situation. To beat this run, we have to play a certain way, with a certain build, with most of the game's mechanics locked out.
You dont “have to” play that one singular build. It’s just what they think is best. If someone wants to give it a shot they can try to get several different builds
by that same logic, you HAVE TO use katanas to kill Malenia in elden ring - just because people think it's best. Doesn't mean you can't have fun and overcome the challenge with another build that you're better at.
Great video, I wonder has there been done a run with everything except tight deadlines? I am guessing that would make each run viable but extremely hard
It'd be significantly easier. The biggest reason 64 heat hasn't been done is time. Once you start compounding the extra enemies with extra health and shield perks and stuff, you just can't have the DPS to take everything out within the time limits.
I don't think it has been done unseeded. It's still very difficult, since the builds that are too weak to beat TD also make you spend much more time in rooms, which makes it much more likely to just die. Doing 7+ minute EM4 Hades fights with bad builds is something that very few players have the skill or stamina to do, and those players would rather do modded 64 heat attempts. 58 heat TD0 has been done seeded/routed without mods, but so has 64 heat.
Still very difficult, at that point it's a 58 heat run which would be much easier if you just shifted some of the heat around instead of just getting rid of the Deadline.
@@Haelian Thanks, yeah I imagine not being able to heal at all or choosing a build are big downsides so you would prefer to have an "easy" deadline instead of no deadline
It's insane. I love Hades, I've put uncountable hours into it, long past completed all the Steam achievements, unlocked everything, I know the game like the back of my hand but my highest completed Heat is around 20, lmao. Mad respect for everyone who plays higher. I would love to see 64 Heat completed unmodded someday, but it would be absolute madness and I don't expect anyone to put in that much time. The fact that it is possible albeit with mods/seeding is already crazy. Great vid and thanks for doing the math!
One article about this feat seemed to interpret your video as saying each run would take 85 hours, then said Angel1c accomplished it in just 30 mins. That made me chuckle! 😂 Massive congrats to Angel1c! That perseverance and skill is mind blowing.
As someone who has been playing a different roguelike: Crypt of the Necrodancer, at a competitive level. This resetting for a good seed is very common everywhere and one thing I see that separates players like me from the top of the top, is that... YES very rarely you will get that incredible seed that has the potential to achieve amazing goals. However, when I get one like that, I immediately turn on panic mode and fail miserably because of all the pressure. Watching the best players handle that pressure, seeing they have a seed that shows up maybe once in 100 hours and they play it perfectly... that's insane
Someone will do it. The absolute insanity that I have seen people do before in other games demonstrates that there are people willing to do this kind of stuff. Edit: someone did it.
I JUST started playing Hades a week ago and beat the game for the first time yesterday and saw the heats. Holy crap, even a little heat is scary for me to look at xD GGs to the folks who beat 64 Heat with those boon mods :D
I think what's most insane to me is just how one singular weapon aspect and build is absolutely required. With the shear variety hades offers, having any one Hyper-specific build truly be THE ONLY WAY sounds almost impossible.
I probably could have explained it better: it is easiest to get a winnable build with Zeus aspect, everything else would require even more luck/odds, by quite a lot too.
I hope that if Hades 2 has a heat system they won’t include approval process and routine inspection. These feel fully luck based and I hope they replace it with some more creative pacts instead. Some Hades 1 ideas I had were: forced Charon fight, forced obol spending in Styx, and guaranteed later sack finds. If Hades 1 added those and removed some of the RNG ones, would you prefer those? or just adding those on top
The modded and seeded runs are important simply because they prove that it is indeed possible to finish _at all_ using the tools available to you in the game.
Yeah, really, I get that there are some people in the challenge run / speed run community that are purists, but resetting thousands of times just for RNG just sounds laborious. There are even many games where mods or tools are allowed specifically because the majority of runners agree it makes the runs more fun for runners.
@@akamesamayeah, it isnt fun having to reset hundreds of times for a specific boon.
@@akamesama it's generally because the argument is the same as 3rd party addons for MMOs. If you're not using what is natively supported by the game, then you're playing with a distinct advantage over anyone else, and the level of play needs to either meet this new standard or it has to ban it to make the playing fields fair. So the generally agreed standard is that if it's within the confines of the game, then it's legitimate to the speedrun. This is also why macros are such a widely debated topic. It's really not a good 1:1 because a lot of the time there's IMPROVEMENTS to the speedrunnning community with macros and resets that cut out a lot of the RNG of games.
@@akamesama I don't know anything about the Hades community so maybe this is already a thing, but in Minecraft speedrunning there are separate categories for seeded runs and pure RNG runs. It just needs to be made clear to people that a seeded run shouldn't ever be something to be ashamed of, especially in a situation like this where - let's face it - a set seed is practically _mandatory._
yeah, resetting a game 250 times just to get a good start is not fun at all. It's not a matter of skill, a monkey can do that. It should be more about actually beating the game. And if it is only theoretically possible with one weapon and set of boons, then what's the point in resetting the game 10000 times? it should be more about the skill. If you are resetting game at the start most of the time, then you are doing the same as the modded game would do, but you just waste your time.
Haelian: with a 1 in 7,000 viability rate, 64 heat _probably_ never will be beaten
Jade: so you’re saying there’s a chance
It's not so bad of an odds, tbh.
@@Grigorii-j7z? I guess you're not very good at math...
@@testme242 in terms of speedrunning its not that bad given the dedication these guys have
@@troublemonkey1_626 it took years. It’s not just the chance itself but the time it takes for each retry
@testme242 determining how good these odds are, is not a matter of math. I don't know what made you say that
History has been made. Congrats to Jade for beating the odds. Love your videos Haelian
My first thought on listening to this was, “This is how difficult it is to actually escape Hell.” Good luck Zagreus, you’ll get out one of these days
first person to do it vanilla gets a Hades-themed care package. like LMSH did on his 1000th Malenia kill.
someone actually did it recently! m.ruclips.net/video/0mo-kXjasZs/видео.html
yeah, 8 days after this video to be exact
Congrats Zag, he's escaped!
I am 100% that this video is what made Jade complete this unholy challenge.
Supposedly yes, someone in her discord watched the video and convinced her to try
@@bixmcgoo5355dafuq is your problem? In this video he said he hoped someone can beat it even if it’s nearly impossible. Why are you so triggered? Nothing better to do with your life?
@@pnoodl3s775 who is triggered?
@@FredMaverik someone who either deleted their comment or the comment was deleted by the channel owner or youtube.
It is insane to see the odds of getting the necessary tools just to even have a viable run on 64 heat, thanks for doing all the maths for us. Absolute lad!
my uncle who works at Nintendo actually beat max heat the other day. I didn't get any videos but just trust me bro
@@IluKoru how original and hilarious
@@Shingeki1323 thanks friend, I appreciate your genuine comment
I actually beat 64 yesterday.
No normal person is going to do this though right?
If anything, this video makes Jade/AngeL1C’s achievement that much more impactful and impressive. Thank you for explaining why the unmodded run is such a big deal
Thank you so much! I'm so happy for Angel and the entire community, I hope this video stands as a testament for how hard they had to work to get that win.
@@Haelian someone beat it unseeded a guy going by zade or something.
@@SunnyIceberg same person as the other comments :)
Exactly, I wouldn't have understood just how impressive her achievement was if I hadn't seen this video first.
The achievement is amazing
Her comment section filled with people saying modded/seeded clears are cheaters, not so much.
I think a simple way to put it is, you cant mathematically deal enough damage to beat all the enemies under tight deadline. Even if you were invulnerable, you literally cant hit enough times without certain boons boosting your damage
i would honestly say that this is a huge oversight on that specific challenge, i understand that it's there only for those who want it but what is exactly the point if it is just impossible to overcome?
@@reyalfa18 The developers never intended for anyone to activate all the challenges at once, or at least never intended for anyone to win like that. The game stops giving you new bounties at 20 heat and gives its last cosmetic reward at 32, which is still only half the challenge options.
@@reyalfa18 i mean its about having the variety, you can have tight deadline on max and beat a run easily, its when its combined with 100% max health increase, 2 invuln hits, no mirror of night traits ETC that the math gets kinda crazy, i run most of my hades runs on max deadline but i dont have the rest on, the game stops rewarding you after like 32 heat and i think thats pretty much as high as the devs really intended anyone to go, but theres not really a reason to take the option of going above 32 heat out if you already have to create the variety of different options, basically they added the possible options for variety not intending them all to be used at the same time, theres no real reason to remove the option of higher difficulty since some people enjoy that.
@@davidbrickey8733 That's like saying humans were "never intended to leave earth", like yeah... you're not wrong?
@@TubeytimeTechnically they are wrong. The devs intended for heat 64 to be played and even made it possible, if highly unlikely, to win heat 64. They just didn't bother making any unlocks for it because eventually the amount of people getting those rewards would be single digits.
Intend was the wrong word, but it's also wrong to say humans weren't intended to leave Earth. We have the capability, otherwise we never would have left Earth, but intent implies design which means belief in God which means belief that we were all made with the express purpose of eventually leaving Earth. Either intent didn't apply to the creation of humans or we were all created with the intent of leaving Earth, depending on your beliefs. Either way, saying we weren't intended to leave Earth is demonstrably false.
I think having a difficulty that's out of reach is perfectly valid. The amount of combinations you can have for 32 heat are insane, and that's the point where the devs say "Whoa, impressive! So, any way you choose to push yourself with this is up to you from now on.". People do self-imposed challenges all the time, but when the game gives you additional tools to do so, people complain about the devs being lazy.
What people want is a "highest difficulty" that is still fun, and the truth of the matter is that everyone has different boundaries, so asking the dev team to improve the difficulty tuning for everyone is a little silly.
100% agree, you cannot fully balance such a complex system and that's OK.
True enough.
On the flipside however, there is a bit of a case to be made for "protecting players from themselves". After all it is known that, if given the chance and not properly disincentivized, people will optimize the fun out of games.
To give a specific example, I think the Approval Process modifier should have been cut from the game. The only way it adds difficulty is by completely removing interesting/meaningful choices in build making/adaption, thereby lowering the skill ceiling, replacing it with RNG, and making the game feel worse to play. You could more-or-less adequately emulate the "difficulty" of this by just having a modifier where it flips a coin at the end of every zone and if it comes up heads, it force-restarts your run.
@@BackwardsPancake In some cases I would say it's inevitable for people to start over-optimising. That's the danger of having very deep and engaging mechanics along with loads of player choice. For me personally Hades was not irresponsible in how they handled the gameplay options for the postgame. It's not like a predatory mobile game, and I'm only sometimes tempted to give the extreme heat levels a go.
When it comes to Approval Process I'd say it has a place for when you're trying to go boonless with as high a heat as you can handle. In the lower heat levels you can from time to time get away with letting the Fates decide a little, too. It's pretty funny when you manage to beat the game with a bizarre build, and I have found out about interesting boon interactions because of it, but I do agree that it is otherwise very oppressive.
I'm actually studying game design right now and couldn't agree more. Trying to guess or balance games based on the premise of "pleasing everyone" is ludicrous. You'll be lucky if most players play the game as you intended at all let alone find similar challenge/engagement from it. Balance is simply not possible in 'most' games, best you can hope for is 'close enough' really. At the end of the day everyone has a different definition of "Fun" and as subjective as that is, it's near impossible to quantify.
In terms of variable difficulty I think more games could do with letting the players have more agency over their own risk vs. rewards scalers like is seen with Hades here. Perfect example is Destiny, Bungie insists on having a variety of difficulties that don't really feel rewarding other than the bragging rights of clears, fast times, titles, etc... The idea that they could let the players scale up the difficulty as desired for scaling rewards is something they dabbled in but removed. I honestly miss that system and wish they'd have doubled down and refined it instead of scrapping it.
So in conclusion the devs need to come up with a way to reach 100 heat
More recognition and praise should go out to modded runners. They aren't really "cheating" or "hacking" the game, only making the RNG predictable in order to more efficiently grind runs. They still have to have the skill to carry out those runs, which are nearly impossible. Even if a perfect theoretical run came about unmodded, a person would have to play 24/7 continuously in order to get it.
EDIT:
Apparently I hit a nerve with this comment and I'm not going to bother arguing with people; however I will say it's important to acknowledge the time and effort that runners, modded or not, spend on this game. Whether or not you think modding is cheating, the objective truth is that it allows for people to accomplish an otherwise impossible goal. Modding allows us to break the boundaries of human ability without spending years of our life trying to find that perfect run. It is easy to dismiss runners as robots with infinite time, but they're just as human as you are, with lives and passions outside of Hades. Be kind to them, because their efforts are just as real as any "authentic" run.
EDIT 2:
Congrats Angel for beating 64 heat unmodded!!!
Yeah I still haven't even beat 32 heat, and every additional point of heat makes the run exponentially harder.
At least have a mod to move the respawn to Z's room, that 45 second run back has got to be annoying af
yeah, unbelievable skill
@@kanal7523 Yea in some games I think you can argue for a purism like minecraft or something of that nature. But for this game it's literally just not worth the effort. The modded runs make it so that it's actually playable. Who wants to spend 85 hours resetting? What is the achievement in that? It's actually nuts that some runners have been able to defeat this insanely hard mode, huge props to them.
this exactly, spending 85 hours rerolling hades doesn't make you any better or worse of a runner, just makes you more dedicated to an "authentic" run
If I recall correctly, lore wise the reason there is a heat system is because hades wants the underworld to have a tight security so that no one will be able to escape. It only makes sense the higher heat you have, the more difficult and impossible it is to escape, I love how the devs were able to create a system that makes sense both in the lore and gameplay.
Oh yeah and the reason Zag is allowed to increase the heat for himself is to like test the security like a penetration tester right?
@@Nat_the_Chicken yep by the end he's given the "job" of testing the security
So lore-wise, is 64 heat the real, maximum security of hell? It makes sense that it is almost impossible to do, there really _is_ no escape.
It makes PERFECT sense that only once in a blue moon would there be one person to escape. Just like in the greek myths. But also that is not the question. The question is, DOES the game reward you for it, is there like a special cut scene built in if you do it, do you get to maybe roam a bit among the living, do you get a special item or something, because that would be really neat. That footage would be worth to see in this lifetime yet. Makes me wonder what the challenge in Hades II will be, I'm so hyped
@@Nemamka That's not THE question, that's YOUR question. And I can't claim to know for certain, but I think given the fact that people have made all these mods (which involves going into the game code and assets and all that), they would know if there were a secret item or cutscene or area that nobody's unlocked, and somebody probably would have modded the game to unlock it and see what it was like. Those things haven't happened, and the expert consensus seems to be that there are no special rewards beyond heat 32. If people are grinding these runs, it isn't (and shouldn't be) because they expect the game to reward them. The accomplishment is the reward, which is why people shouldn't do runs like these if the accomplishment wouldn't be worth it to them.
Another aspect that is hard to quantify is the stress of repetitive movements on your hands. After speedrunning Path of Pain in Hollow Knight I can safely say that almost all top runners suffer from wrist pain and require breaks and constant stretches to ensure no serious injuries. Even then there's still a chance because of how many clicks Hades requires per run.
playing casually on mouse and keyboard hurt my hands more than any other game ive played; i could not IMAGINE doing this for speedruns day in and out
I'm not sure how Hades is on keyboard, but at least for controller I find the game to be exceptionally taxing on my hand muscles, more than basically any other 2d action roguelite I can think of. Other games I could probably play for 5+ hours, but with Hades my hands are already starting to ache after a single run!
Anyway, my point was just that it seems like this game requires either more movements or harder movements than other games in the genre.. I wonder if that's the case or not!
@@Slival_ LOL before I saw yours, I left a comment that said almost the exact same thing but for controller, and I said I didn't know how it felt on keyboard. Glad we got our bases covered!
Turns out Hades is just kinda painful to play.. I suppose that's oddly fitting for the subject matter😂
@@idontwantahandlethough I notice wrist pain whenever I play very challenging games that also require many inputs. When I have to concentrate fully on the game I don't notice uncomfortable positions and just press harder than necessary. If playing such games was my job it could probably be possible to train myself to pay attention to these things regardless.
I just beat Deadlink yesterday and yeah my wrists were screaming.
It's interesting, I do think and understand how the concept of something literally being unbeatable could probably upset people. But it also does make a bit of flavor sense. Sure, Hades does need to have weaknesses...especially when he is pulling punches. But full force, getting out of the underworld really should be like a one in a million chance. And while that may not be exactly what it is, making it that ball bustingly hard to the point of tears is what trying to escape death *realistically* should be.
Well you aren't just any Joe Shmoe, you are quite literally a god.
@@kingacrisius well demigod. Zag has an in-game conversation with Achilles I believe about how he would be immune to the flames of asphodel if he weren’t half god
Flavor should always take a backseat towards almost everything else.
As an optional thing it's pretty great. If this was the baseline though the game would be horrid. I'm glad to see the development understood this and didn't let realism take over the necessity of players convenience.
@@bjgray7954 Zagreus is quarter god, as the game says persephone had a mortal father
im just glad to clear 32 heat once in a while. you gotta really love this game to attempt a challenge like this, major props to the guys who did the successful runs this year.
Have to love the game alot more than yourself and your sanity
@@customch33s32
I love all three things and managed it to reach 36, without mods.
And my only motivation was to improve my relationships and to upgrade my weapons.
XD
Though it was pretty tricky to manage this level because I had to experiment a lot.
i tried this run 10 times (well, 10 runs with zeus's special and explosive return in tartarus) and i got pretty good rng once, made it to the elysium boss room but i had like 10 hp left and 20-30 secs to beat the boss, so ofc i died and then i gave up, this run is so unreasonable only a madman would beat it
I feel like your the unreasonable madman for even getting that far
@@hamchurger4566 i got extremely lucky and even that wasn't enough, i can't imagine how much luck and dedication one needs to reach Hades and beat him in time. And the pressure after you beat the hydra and get to Elysium is so insane you just start making a bunch of mistakes that ultimately cost you the run. I may be a madman for reaching Elysium but then the person who actually beats Hades is several magnitudes more mad xd
A madman has beaten it
@@vdd1001 what? Really? it was beaten with a random seed???
@@ancard3118 yup, the guy who made this video has even recently uploaded a reaction to the run. Never say never on the internet I guess lmao
Whoever does manage to do it, is gonna get the comment: now do it with every weapon
LOL
Whas the worst Aspect in the game?
Beat 64 heat with that one!
@@pharoahman475I’d say guan yu -50% health is harsh even with the healing it gives you
@@twistedjoke6636Does the healing even work with lasting consequences?
@@alienplatypus7712 i think lasting consequences is a multiplier on ALL health gain, so yeah, 0.0 times 2 health is still 0, unfortunately
Really puts it into perspective, mechanical skill and game knowledge goes out the window when faced with these odds. At that level of heat, I'd consider modding and seeding the boons you *need* to be a necessary evil. After all, it's really only evening the odds; player skill is what actually matters, not the ridiculous amount of resets required before you get to actually play the game.
Well said
seeding in unmodded is overhated (over-avoided??) overall tbh
@@diethylmalonate eh, if the game has multiple possible strategies then i think you shouldnt be allowed to seed or mod runs, but if theres only one way to beat the game and it requires absurd RNG to even START running it i think its just worth it
BTW for anyone scrolling through, Retrash is one of the legends of Hades High Heat running, known for mastery across tons of aspects, and a specific talent at clearing high heat EM4 fights with ridiculously underpowered builds.
Despite the hilarious timing of this video, considering what happened so soon after, big thanks and massive props to Haelian for putting this together. I love seeing the actual statistical breakdown for stuff like this (even if it is massively discouraging for a filthy casual like myself 😅), and it just goes to show how much dedication and love for the game he has.
8/2/23 UPDATE: 64 Heat unmodded, unseeded has been BEATEN by AngeL1C just 8 days after this video was posted! All of the math stated in this video is still correct and it just so happened one of only two people in the WORLD to have the proven ability to beat 64 Heat had the stars align. Insane display of skill, make sure you watch it: ruclips.net/video/0mo-kXjasZs/видео.html
Honestly I consider this legit. Grinding for a chance at a run is completely pointless and doesn't constitute a display of skill.
As long as this run is unseeded, and that the seed generated by this modded game would yield the same result in the vanilla game, then there's no reason not accept it.
Hey, does Demeter's nourished soul (heal 30% more) or Dionysus's 100% fountain heal effect the 100% debuff from the pact of punishment?
@@Terranovasaurus Nope they do nothing. The only healing related boons that work so to speak are Quick Recovery from Hermes and Stubborn Roots duo.
@@Haelian if only there was a way to get stubborn roots to heal faster than tight deadline
@@darkstar_xd that's a routed run, which is linked in the description and also doesn't "count"
Excellent scripting and analysis here, Haelian. I particularly appreciated that you highlighted the sheer small probability of things going right and the ridiculously high skill level needed even when the stars align for a good run (or you mod it to happen that way), just to pre-empt the inevitable counter-argument (flawed though it may be) of modding/seeding being a "cheap" way to complete max heat (as @sajanramanathan also pointed out). Cheers!
what I've learned from speedrunning and challenge run communities is that no matter how impossible some game challenge seems, someone will eventually do it
We'll see it happen in a few years, I'm sure.
This reminds me of the hollowknight boss added by mods that's meant to be impossible. Yet they've updated it multiple times because someone beat it. It's called any radiance, I believe.
@@astralaegis6283 yeah tbh I can see a madlad just practice modded 64heat runs until they beat it really consistently and then grind the hypothetical 85 hours to get that run
Comments that aged like fine wine
I really appreciate putting numbers on it here. When people complain about modded speedruns being “cheated” I can just point them to this video.
I love running unmodded for any heat but it would have to be your full time job for you to maybe complete 64 heat unmodded within a few years.
Thanks for the kind words! I hope that we can get a better appreciation of the modded community this way.
Not to mention, even if your full time job is streaming Hades, how many viewers will watch a streamer doing the same reset every 45 seconds for hours on end? You'd quickly lose all but the most diehard viewers, and they're not going to be enough to support you
Just came back here after seeing Jade did it! What an absolute MAD LAD! Incredible videos both of you!
Tight deadline + routine inspection + approval process all together at full strength really does away with any chance of anything other than blind luck and the best possible build, I'm getting hives just thinking about it 😬
It's clear to me that some of these boons were meant to be alternate choices to each other, and not used at the same time. In particular maxed Approval Process turns the game into silly RNG. It's not "the hardest mode", it's just a unique challenge mode.
Dude this video was actually so good. Great editing and you explained stuff so well. Can’t wait for your hades 2 vids!
No one:
Jade 8 days later: is this a challenge I hear?
Actually, you could pull this off with any of the hammers. You just need to swing them harder.
Sweet vid - as a former high heat player, I believe the math flashed before my eyes and let me get out when I could LOL. It's not even that it's challenging - it's just unlikely and not tremendously fun. My biggest criticism of Hades is probably encapsulated by the trouble of its difficulty system. The game design sort of implies a possibility of winning, even though it's clearly so impractical that nobody really should even think about beating the game at its highest difficulty. Games like Slay the Spire (or other roguelikes with very high difficulty) are always beatable from a practical level at the highest difficulties, and that's where the game can ultimately find its balance - I love the modular heat system, and I'm hoping we see a much more balanced and practical challenge for players in the follow-up.
oh shit this guy knows what he's talking about. he's the first one ever to clear First Run Fresh File on Hell Mode! big fan, wriste!
I honestly appreciate games where the max difficulty is past where the theoretical "best" is, because as time goes on, the best will get better. I'd rather difficulty be the limiting factor than patience. Nuclear throne I think does a good job of scaling up difficulty over loops, while the binding of isaac definitely doesn't.
The trouble with devs meeting to decide what is and isn't possible is that they often underestimate the potential of good players to beat even intense challenges. Sure it turns out that 64 heat is practically unbeatable but there's no way they could have known that going in. The fact that people can beat 50+ heat is incredible on its own and is way more than I would have guessed was possible
I think at the end of the day, having the ability to go even harder despite it not being possible is nicer than being unable to even attempt it at all.
I don't really think the game design implies its possible since you don't even really get rewards past what 32 heat, To me that implies they don't expect a reasonable person to get past that point. I love the modular difficulty but I think its incompatible with making the game realistically beatable with everything turned up.
Great video! I feel like it's the lack of mirror that really does you in here, having extra dashes or death defiances would go so far in making this kind of run without perfect boon and hammer luck, but without that you're just so limited! I've tried 64 heat for fun and never even got out of tartarus lol
I feel like an extra 1-2 minutes for tight deadline would give players a chance and also increase build diversity having those spare seconds. Might be fun to see a new balance patch before Hades II comes out.
@@Rfxorcist doubtful, game was never really intended to be done at 64 so i dont think they really care, not in a bad way i just think it would actually be a waste of time
@@joehicks929 Yeah, I mean how many people would attempt 64 heat even after a balance patch? Only a handful of players are anywhere close to good enough to try it so why spend a bunch of time doing that when you have a new game you're developing?
Man, you're the reason i managed to progress as far as I got into the game.
Haven't touched it in a year, life's pretty intense at the moment.
Just watching this video makes me want to play again!
You really know how to share your passion ^^
This vidoe was like watching Ocean's 11 when they're explaining how impossible it will be to break into a casino. Awesome stuff!
good vid!
this doesn't change the math, but it was recently found that other specials are viable too, Mysterra cleared non-hell mode 63 heat with modded epic Aphrodite and Artemis' specials, and at that heat level, the 1 missing heat just lets you live one potentially lethal hit per run.
the math is still similar, since you still need to get the epic special, hammer, etc etc
The math is still literally the same I believe, since you can guarantee the god whose boon you get from your trinket
Wouldn't it still cut the time in half per attempt, because you have two viable paths then?
@@Ornithopter470 If you equip a God's keepsake, you guarantee that the first boon you get is from that god. And you should 100% do that from the start, since it also makes it more likely you'll get the Epic boon which you need
And keep in mind that the odds for each run are completely independent of each other. The odds of a plausible run are 1 in 6,802 attempts, which resets with every run. You could do 50,000 runs and never even get the minimum setup you need to realistically get out of Tartarus. Or you could get it on your very first run. Good luck!
Yea people don't understand that 1/6802 doesn't mean 1 guranteed in 6802. I believe the actual math is about a 65% chance or so to hit a 1 in X in X amount of attempts.
@@blablabla451363,21 percent in this case.
But yeah, thats a bit of a mishap in the video
"or you could get it on your first run" lol
@@blablabla4513 did the math out of sheer boredom, turns out that as X -> infinity the probability of getting a 1 in X chance in X attempts approaches 1 - 1/e, which is about 63.2121%. Your chances get worse as X increases, going from 100% when X = 1 to 75% when X = 2 to 70% when X = 3, but the chances quickly stagnate towards the limit of 63%. When X = 11 the chance is already slightly below 65%.
it's giving the NYT predicting flight wouldnt be possible for a million years 9 days before the wright brothers flew for the first time
This is such a top tier video. Clear, had good background for fresh players, and presents things in both math and practicality.
I was initially disappointed to see "modded" in so many speedruns but realized the immense challenge and the limited scope of the mod. Just forcing your first boon and hammer to have options. This video would have made it so much more clear and satisfying right away. Great, great video!
Thank you!!
Next video in my reccomendations (9 months ago):
"MAX HEAT IN HADES HAS OFFICIALLY BEEN BEATEN!"
Nice, I've beaten 32 heat with the Zeus shield and indeed it's the best thing to have when so many restrictions are in place. Can't fathom how to ever approach 64, props to the modded folks who have done it!
Take hestia rail, easiest 40 heat ever
@@zelassin Hestia + Hazard bomb. That's how I did 32 heat. The enemies can't hurt me if I nuke them from a screen away.
ANGEL1C BEAT IT UNMODDED!!!🎉🎉🎉
I don't know if you'll see this but I'm super glad I found your channel. The roguelite genre has become one of my favorites in recent years and it's cool to see people be passionate enough to make entire channels based on it.
I'm so glad I decided to watch this before history was made. It makes the achievement so much better.
A bit late to the party, haha. Thanks for the wonderful video, Hael! Really lovely to put it in perspective the sheer odds a max heat clear would take.
I'm just proud of my 30 heat run.
I just got the game and have been watching old videos to learn some new builds, but this earned my subscription. Really great info!
Insane you put this out and 8 days later Jade literally does what is impossible
Thanks for doing this vid, Haelian! High Heat is such an interesting realm of Hades running and a lot of people aren't exposed to it as much. I hope some new runners will be inspired by this, although I doubt anyone is planning on unmodded 64 heat anytime soon
Maybe one day someone with unlimited free time and unbreakable mental will be able to sit there and do runs until they beat it
I don't mind the impossible challenge. It reminds me of other such challenges that weren't ever designed with being beaten in mind. I'd say beating everything but Deadline should be seen as the ultimate goal, with tests of speed being the meta records for each aspect and not being left to a death clock.
It is cosmically funny how quickly this was accomplished after the video was posted. It’s amazing to rewatch and remember all the reasons that run was so crazy difficult, skill intensive, and lucky. Kudos to you for making a video that caused a huge group of people to care about a specific way to run Hades they’d never heard of beforehand, right before it became really relevant.
The fact that it is *possible* at all, is no less than a huge testament to the amazing work the gamedesigners and devs did with Hades. There's simply nothing more to say. Yes, it's not feasible to grind out the hours for the big flipping "maybe" of a possible run, but the fact that there *is* a mathematically *reasonable* possibility of a run occuring that is beatable and max heat while not forgetting about the enormous amounts of degrees of freedoms that are part of this calculation, is absolutely mindblowing. Hades is a lesson in excellence on all accounts.
This was super interesting. I have really been enjoying the recent off stream content. Good job! Thanks for the videos
Whatever ages worse than milk, this is that
Genuinely impressive universal timing
Like what are the odds lmfao
The math is still all correct in this video, Angel is just a god gamer filled with determination!
@@Haelian right it was awesome I can't believe they did it but we got the proof
The way you were talking and the production value of this video makes it seem like you knew it was going to get a lot of views, and what do you know it did, congrats! Love these kinds of videos keep it up
It was just beaten :)
Still this video is even more relevant than ever now, shows just how much of a remarkable feat this really is!
Crazy to see how far the Hades community can push this game. Can’t wait for Hades 2!
Very cool video and interesting to watch! Well edited too! Big brain math blew my mind lol
He said "nearly".
As a mathematician/astronomer, I know how dauntingly desperate it is, and how "lucky" we were someone managed to do ti xD
Something funny: This is the first video I've seen in a while all about %odds that actually had correct math. Props to actually checking your work.
Welp this video aged quickly
All of the math here is still correct, Angel was just able to prove that they had the determination to do it!
Great video explanation!! It’s really hard to understand how truly difficult max heat is until you beat/play heats in the 50s, bananas that people even beat it with the minimal mods they used.
Agreed 100%
Great video! Makes me want to play Hades again. (Though, I still need to get Skelly's 3rd statue.) Also, congrats in advance on 100k subscribers!!!
Amazing video; the math really put it over the top. Thanks, Haelian
I know it's almost entirely due to the RNG, but it's wild to think that an impossible challenge like this even exists at a time when seemingly every other impossible task in a video game has been beaten by someone
it just got beaten lmfao
Really well done video, thank you for breaking down all the aspects to 64 heat in such a detailed way!! ⭐️
a small note about the math you used.
while percentages (like 0.0147%) are mathematically equivalent to their fractional forms (like 1/6802), a probability of 0.0147% does not strictly imply that 6802 attempts is guaranteed to give you 1 occurrence of the result you need. rather, what it means is that over a VERY LARGE number of attempts, approximately 1 out of every 6802 attempts will be the result you want.
intuitively speaking, even for something like a coin flip, it's possible to flip a coin several times and not get heads even once. that is, even if the probability of getting heads on a coin flip is 50%, or 1 in 2, flipping a coin twice does not guarantee that you will get at least one heads.
similarly, it is fully possible to make 6802 (or more) attempts and not receive the combination of boons/circumstances required to complete the run.
a more rigorous way of calculating guaranteed outcomes with percentages like this is to first define a percent probability that we determine to be sufficiently equivalent to a guarantee. likelihood percentages of 95% or 99% are commonly used. in other words, you want to calculate the number of attempts required to achieve a 95% (or 99%) likelihood of the desired outcome occurring.
there are several ways to do this, but the easiest is with a variation of the expected value formula.
if the probability of the perfect storm of run-enabling events occurring in a single run is 0.0147%, then that means that the probability of them not occurring in a single run is 1-0.000147 = 0.999853 (99.9853%).
since individual runs are independent events, you multiply the probabilities together. that is, you multiply 0.0999853 by itself for each run. 0.999853^3 would be equivalent to the probability of the perfect storm of events NOT occurring in three runs.
to calculate the number of times you need to get a 95% likelihood of the event occurring, you basically solve for x in the following equation: (1-0.95)=(0.999853)^x. in this case, x = 20378 attempts. if you want 99% likelihood, that number jumps to 31326 attempts.
you can use this method for calculating runs needed to get certain loot drops. i used to use it all the time for warframe.
Great information honestly, thank you for expanding and clarifying. Although it just makes the run sound all the more insane and daunting lmao
Ok, I have never seen any of your videos before but that cat walking on the subscribe button was so freaking adorable I had to subscribe, lol
Excellent video hael! A great explanation as to why people seriously grinding extreme heat use mods. Love to see the hades content :D
I'd argue that since it's the only part of the game without a fixed number of chambers, perhaps everytime you hit a dead end in the satyr tunnels you should gain an extra time.
(or perhaps give Super Dad his own timer)
They always did say what Zagreus was doing wasn't possible, foolish, even...
This is fascinating. Thanks for the upload.
It could be super nice if developers added an option to re-do an attempt and directly load into 1st room with same setup, it would save the 45 seconds to try it
It's been awhile since RUclips has fed me some hades content from you. I remember going for 32 heat because I thought that gave a steam achievement only to realize the game was platinumed days before the 32 heat attempts even started 😂. Some of the modifiers like approval process soured the experience when trying to up the heat in a manner that didn't just make enemies tanks and the player a glass needle. Can't wait to see what Hades 2 brings us.
This was great dude. Inventive way of showing how dialed in these challenge runs have become.
Can't wait to see what Hades 2 brings to the table
There's enough data out there that the sequel CANT GO WRONG
G-mfing-Gs to Angel1c. Gotta love the fact that when one human says that something is "near-impossible", one person listening only hears the "near"
First time here on the channel and I just have to say that was the classiest "call to subscribe" ive ever seen. Love the cat :)
Just because it has now been done doesn't mean I don't think the points made in this video stand. An insanely high starting line that you can't afford to mess up on once granted.
Great video, I loved the probabilities and the resulting expected times to play the game!
First time i see your channel
I dont play much rogue like but i like hades
And this is a very good video 👍🏼
this is the same as newspapers printing "man will not fly for thousands of years" 8 days before the wright brothers invented the plane
8 days later, it was done. Holy shit
Great video Dan. Almost to 100k!
Like the heat system really is impressive, and terrifying.
In summary, the reason it never happened is because it is not a fun way to play the game. Hades is a game where we have to learn and adapt to each situation. To beat this run, we have to play a certain way, with a certain build, with most of the game's mechanics locked out.
Never seen a speedrun?
@@fashionsuckman4652 Some speedruns are fun. Some are not. The more fun a speedrun is, the more people will attempt it.
You dont “have to” play that one singular build. It’s just what they think is best. If someone wants to give it a shot they can try to get several different builds
@@zelassinyeah you have to lol. U only have 5 minutes to clear a zone
by that same logic, you HAVE TO use katanas to kill Malenia in elden ring - just because people think it's best. Doesn't mean you can't have fun and overcome the challenge with another build that you're better at.
Great video, I wonder has there been done a run with everything except tight deadlines? I am guessing that would make each run viable but extremely hard
It'd be significantly easier. The biggest reason 64 heat hasn't been done is time. Once you start compounding the extra enemies with extra health and shield perks and stuff, you just can't have the DPS to take everything out within the time limits.
I don't think it has been done unseeded. It's still very difficult, since the builds that are too weak to beat TD also make you spend much more time in rooms, which makes it much more likely to just die. Doing 7+ minute EM4 Hades fights with bad builds is something that very few players have the skill or stamina to do, and those players would rather do modded 64 heat attempts. 58 heat TD0 has been done seeded/routed without mods, but so has 64 heat.
Still very difficult, at that point it's a 58 heat run which would be much easier if you just shifted some of the heat around instead of just getting rid of the Deadline.
@@Haelian Thanks, yeah I imagine not being able to heal at all or choosing a build are big downsides so you would prefer to have an "easy" deadline instead of no deadline
For that heat amount (58) you could turn off Exteme Measures 4 and face 20% more enemies instead of 60% and I think that gives you a better shot.
It's insane. I love Hades, I've put uncountable hours into it, long past completed all the Steam achievements, unlocked everything, I know the game like the back of my hand but my highest completed Heat is around 20, lmao. Mad respect for everyone who plays higher. I would love to see 64 Heat completed unmodded someday, but it would be absolute madness and I don't expect anyone to put in that much time. The fact that it is possible albeit with mods/seeding is already crazy. Great vid and thanks for doing the math!
Guess what
One article about this feat seemed to interpret your video as saying each run would take 85 hours, then said Angel1c accomplished it in just 30 mins. That made me chuckle! 😂
Massive congrats to Angel1c! That perseverance and skill is mind blowing.
Here after the guy beat 64 unseeded unmodded yesterday
I'm already pondering what crazy stuff we'll run into in the 2nd game!
This aged like milk EXTREMELY fast xD
As someone who has been playing a different roguelike: Crypt of the Necrodancer, at a competitive level. This resetting for a good seed is very common everywhere and one thing I see that separates players like me from the top of the top, is that... YES very rarely you will get that incredible seed that has the potential to achieve amazing goals. However, when I get one like that, I immediately turn on panic mode and fail miserably because of all the pressure. Watching the best players handle that pressure, seeing they have a seed that shows up maybe once in 100 hours and they play it perfectly... that's insane
Someone will do it. The absolute insanity that I have seen people do before in other games demonstrates that there are people willing to do this kind of stuff.
Edit: someone did it.
Thanks for the video :)
The sheer fortitude it would take to even play long enough for a *single* attempt is insane
I JUST started playing Hades a week ago and beat the game for the first time yesterday and saw the heats. Holy crap, even a little heat is scary for me to look at xD
GGs to the folks who beat 64 Heat with those boon mods :D
I think what's most insane to me is just how one singular weapon aspect and build is absolutely required. With the shear variety hades offers, having any one Hyper-specific build truly be THE ONLY WAY sounds almost impossible.
I probably could have explained it better: it is easiest to get a winnable build with Zeus aspect, everything else would require even more luck/odds, by quite a lot too.
7 days later and it has been done. Jade too it personally
Love this style of video from you!
It has apparently been beet 6 hours ago
Hearing Haelian use a RUclips voice is hilarious.
Congratz on the over half a million views, insane to see that much.
I hope that if Hades 2 has a heat system they won’t include approval process and routine inspection. These feel fully luck based and I hope they replace it with some more creative pacts instead. Some Hades 1 ideas I had were: forced Charon fight, forced obol spending in Styx, and guaranteed later sack finds. If Hades 1 added those and removed some of the RNG ones, would you prefer those? or just adding those on top
Great video dude, love your analysis and the cold hard reality of maths...