Yeah, that is why in my novel there is no alphabet people or non-white people, I don't want to offend anyone so those "special" groups are just vanished. As for other sexual things she was talking about I don't have obsession about sex, so I will be fine.
About point 7: It's not just sexual assault that "makes you stronger", trauma, abuse, and mental illness are used in the same way. Usually, the badass has their personality from trauma, but this only affects them in positive ways. As a neurodivergent who's been through severe emotional trauma, it's only made me more afraid. All these stories need is one scene where the characters show weakness. Now I'm not saying all abuse survivors don't get stronger, but my gods these stories are why no one takes me seriously when I ask for help. And point 4 reminds me of school where we watched videos of disabled kids every month so the teachers (who could no care less about their jobs) could say, "See? Others have it was worse then you! You're lucky to be here!"
It's simply dehumanizing, an abuse victim is only seen as a "warrior" instead of a human being, it paints abuse as something that has positive impact on people by making them more assertive and badass instead of showing how negatively it affects people. In a lot of stories there's no feeling of "being dirty", there's no suicidal thoughts, there's no self harming, there's no feeling like crap. It's really negative to do these stories and ignore the amount of psychological, emotional and physical damage this does to people, abuse of any kind shouldn't be romanticized or seen as something that makes people better. It also sets a bad example for characters that go through abuse and commit the s word because if the ones that kept living are painted as strong and warriors, what does it say about those that couldn't handle it? Someone is not weak or cowardly for not being able to keep living, that is a very negative trope, very offensive to anyone that ever had suicidal thoughts.
How does this work? "Your 'training' didn't make me stronger or braver. I was scared of everyone, and I thought I could only count on myself, but I was just a coward who was trying to avoid being hurt again. It was my friends, their courage, their insight, their will, their kindness... that was what made me strong!"
Or the flipside of this is said person who suffered brutal assault is so traumatized that they regress mentally, into a child like state or go catatonic. Not saying that this doesn't happen in real life but this is almost like fridging and inspirational porn rolled up into one. This damaged person is now reduced to a prop to fuel the MCs journey and motivations, and oh, sometimes #10 can be added if the character survives the attack and suffered so much trauma that they succumb to their injuries over a period of time/have to be put out of their misery. A trope often found in video games btw where the player character has to kill the character to progess through the game 🤢😡
@@unluckyone1655 that reminds me of a specific Skyrim quest. you have to kill Cicero the keeper of the night mother in the dark brotherhood. I never kill him because he's a very entertaining follower later on but the fact that he's wounded and that the quest wants you to kill him just pisses me off. You can't even heal him because using the magic is seen as an attack and can kill him. (I tried and idk if it was a glitch or not but he died.) if you read his journals you realize he goes insane while caring for the night mother due to his isolation. it's actually a sad story and all the dark brotherhood members treat him like crap...
THANK YOU for talking about inspiration porn! There is such a huge difference between writing a thoughtful book where a character's disability is part of the plot (or mental illness) and writing a So Inspirational disabled character-- and every disabled reader knows the difference... and wants to retch when we read the latter type.
@@anna-katehowell9852 I don't mean to just jump in, but after seeing your initial comment I felt the same way. Do you have any author recommendations that do it right? I've only found 1. It just feels like a slap in the face when the MC or SC become superheros and save the day. Well, without a good reason that they could suddenly act all-powerful like gifted powers or cyber augments, etc.
Having been sexually assaulted, it did not make me stronger, only more afraid to get in relationships and a bit angrier. Also, I can't help think of Dirty harry in terms of "badass guys who take what they want" being considered heroic who I couldn't stand.
It's terrible and gross enough to run into for people who have been safe all their life, I can't imagine how this trope must absolutely ruin any chance of escapism you could possibly glean from media. Sexual assault sure does change people, but "omg so strog an brav" doesn't even make sense to think the result would be at all.
it gave me an irrational fear of men, it's gotten a bit better because i have a wonderful boyfriend who has helped me get through these things but i still hate seeing/being around men in public (like strangers).
same.. six years had passed since it happened but i am still not over it 😅 it didnt make me stronger. i became anxious and insecure to the point i dont believe in myself even in the smallest of things. idk how people became stronger after experiencing sexual assault but im glad that they were able to live a life without the experience affecting them anymore. i just hate it when people write about it like it's a blessing or the only appropriate catalyst that can improve their character.
It's like how some people say being bullied makes people stronger and toughens them up when it doesn't. I was bullied and it got so bad I had to be homeschooled.
One of my most hated tropes... Jealousy is romantic. No. No this man child who can't communicate when something makes them uncomfortable and takes it out on thier partner is NOT "romantic" I still recall a story I worked on where everyone wanted my very dangerous hanging by a thread sanity wise character to be "jealous " of a child just because his girlfriend was taking car of it, rather than the parental/big brother role he settled on. The cries of "but it would be so romantic!" had me physically ill.. That's how you end up with a dead baby and a body count... I was able to make everyone fall in love with the kid so that the ridiculous cries for the jealousy trope finally stopped but dear lord it was annoying!!!
That is so weird... you would think it would be the other way around. Someone being kind to children makes me go all gooey inside, but someone being jealous of a child just makes them seem incredibly selfish and immature. What's gonna happen if the jealous love interest marries? Is he gonna be jealous if his wife gives attention to his own child?
Yeah jealousy is def a romanticized thing, though mostly in fiction, those types of people usually hate jealous people/lovers irl. It’s not always bad if it’s written well though, I like this one BL anime that really subverts the bad BL tropes, it’s a good and healthy relationship, it’s called Sasaki to Miyano it’s very adorable, I’d recommend. The dub is actually quite good sasaki voice acting is amazing particularly, who’s the jealous one btw.
"That's how you end up with a dead baby and a body count... " The first thing my twisted mind thought was "Oh, that would have been interesting to go through with it just to give some people a reality check". Of course, this was probably not the story you were going for, but sometimes, what people need is a cautionary tale, and this could have been a good opportunity. But it's also admirable that you knew better and stuck with your idea and it's nice that they ended up loving it.
I think an intelligent, sane villain, that has a motive everyone can understand, perhaps even agree with, makes for a much more interesting story. Saving the world from climate change and overpopulation can usually be agreed upon to be a good thing, while doing so by spreading an antibiotic-resistant plague with 90% mortality rate is generally considered a suboptimal solution.
Overpopulation stuff is mostly a myth and is also considered to be eco fascist the problem isn’t overpopulation it’s over consumption :/ the world can support billions not billionaires
The most annoying thing about the “sexual assault made me stronger” is that it perpetuates this strange idea that people wouldn’t leap at the chance to erase the traumatic thing that happened to them. Yes, she is a strong person now, but do you not think she would take away that scar if she could?
@@bjp4869 I don’t watch very many horror movies, but the ones that I have, I noticed that the only black character (and there often is only one) is the first to die, although I didn’t care enough for any of those movies to remember their names as examples
That's actually not very common. The actual trope is the black guy always dies (at some point). And it actually became a recognized trope because of successful and widely viewed films where black men had a prominent role: Night of the Living Dead (1968), Alien (1979), JC's The Thing (1982), etc. So, Jenna is wrong in that it is not normally associated with a token character. Indeed, in the above listed films...they had to die. They wouldn't be horrific otherwise.
@@alexandernorman5337 I think it’s less on Jenna specifically and more that many fell for the misunderstanding if you’re right. That’s an infamous subject after all.
My trick is that the “races” in my stories are their own defined fictional cultures, so the reader can’t tell who the black people are. Because there are no black people, or white people, or Slavs, or whatever. We’ve got bird people with basis in Slavic cultures, we’ve got fox people with basis in various indigenous cultures, lizard people who are far more Western European and American, and desert wolf people who get most of their stuff from the general Asia, Africa, and more Slav stuff.
The "Empowered because of past Sexual Assault" trope is so problematic, and seems to be thrown in merely for shock value. A woman can be strong without a dark backstory involving sexual violence.
I'm especially prone to giving my characters dark backstories (it's how I process certain things) but sexual assault has never been involved in those dark pasts bc frankly it doesn't need to be there. tl;dr if you wanna give a character a dark backstory, there are options other than r@pe
And the fact this trope is pretty much just used on female characters is sad. You can have a badass female character without her being sexually assaulted, please writers start doing some new sh-t, we're tired of this "empowerment" post sexual assault.
I don't think traumatic events work that well for empowering a character as singular events. It's usually better to have a series of events or, which is easier in a backstory, a few snapshots of the character's dark history. A character who's constantly struggling and finally has enough and grows stronger is more interesting to me than someone who doesn't struggle, has a single traumatic event, and then instantly turns around to become stronger. I have a character who's very strong and sexually assaulted. But in that order. She is very strong before it happens, and it's not something she considers a major event in her life. Which is the point, as it serves to contrast another character who does struggle, and isn't particularly strong either before or after. So just having sexual assault in the background isn't enough to make it a bad idea, but to have it as the actual reason for the empowerment is what turns it sour for me.
@@AnotherDuck This. The story I'm working on, the main character has some issues. Problems trusting, PTSD, Depression, etc. These stem from being abused as a child, culminating in almost dying and being abandoned in the woods, and then having to survive from age 10 to 16 on her own. Yeah, singular traumatic events are horrific, and leave their mark. But to slap your character with one, and then they're magically over it in a month and 'Oh, look at how much stronger and better I am for it'... *strangles the air* These things take time. I speak from experience. Been struggling with Depression and PTSD since I was 12. I'm now 28. I'm still effected by what I went through. Will be for many years to come. Let's start writing realistic recoveries, shall we?
Oh, my gods, THANK YOU for bringing up the "inspiration porn" and "better off dead" things. Ableist tropes are rarely discussed and they should be mentioned more often.
Yep, or the cringe award winning two-fer, the 'better off dead' who becomes inspiration porn by narrowly managing to not end their own 'suffering' by being miraculously 'saved/cured' by the love interest or their giant cheque book. 🤬🤬
To tie into the "dubious consent" topic, I had to stop supporting an author a few years ago. She wrote contemporary romance, and while all her books had tons of cliches I didn't mind because they were still fun. Until I got to the final book in her companion series. The main "antagonist" of the series (one of those mean girl types who had a kind of a "rough" life because her rich parents were mostly MIA so she took it out on everybody around her) was given her own book. And I thought it was going to be a book about self-growth and all that, but no. She was given a book where a guy she had feelings for tells her he doesn't want her, but later sneaks into her house while she's asleep to have sex with her, without her knowledge (she thinks she's dreaming) and ends up pregnant... and she finds out that he was doing this but thinks it was some massive show of how much he loves her and she marries him... NOPE. In the bin with that book and that author.
or just dont be a snowflake? Not everything is a targeted message, not everything is about you, not everything has to something with the writers personal opinions. Learn that
One problematic trope I find is "Redemption Equals Death". It's whenever someone who's been morally wrong redeems themselves, and then shortly after, or in the act of redemption, dies. I think that sends the message that the cost of redemption isn't worth it, and discourages seeking forgiveness. It also completely eliminates a potentially very interesting character arc that's already half written. It might not be as bad as some other tropes, but it's probably the trope I like the least. On the "Fridging Women" trope, the one part I disagree about is that it makes women disposable. That's something far more prevalent for men. If it's typical for women to die to create some emotion in a male character, men in fiction much more often die without any kind of afterthought or concern. They're just men, so who cares?
If I recall correctly, Hayao Miyazako also dislikes the trope Redemption Equals Death. He probably doesn't think very highly of the Friding Women trope either since he's a very much a supporter of having a strong female protagonist in the movies.
If I might speak in defense of "redemption equals death", the way you describe it is "I think that sends the message that the cost of redemption isn't worth it." I beg to differ. The message of this trope is that redemption is worth EVERYTHING. If you remember the Braveheart speech from William Wallace when he talks about fleeing warriors one day being old men lying in their beds dreaming of one chance to trade every day from their fleeing to now for one more opportunity to do the right thing. That's what the R.E.D. trope is about. It's that redemption being bigger than your own life and making a show of it. It's ok if you don't especially like the trope, but I thought I just had to give it some context.
@@jtib5968 That's a fair point, however it's not how I see it used most of the time. That's an active choice by the characters to sacrifice themselves, rather than something imposed on them by the author. A lot of the time I just see it as a cop-out to not have to deal with the actual redemption part. And in the case when it's actually harder for the characters to live with the guilt than to die and escape it it also cheapens it since it doesn't give much back than what they could do working for it for a long time.
Seeing a hero with a mental illness is actually an interesting concept. In my group's D&D campaign we have a hero in our party with DID (dissociative identity disorder or multiple personalities). My friend plays this character really well and it is fun to see the types of situations he gets himself into. If anything he is a great character cause despite being a vampire with DID who is also related to the BBEG, this character is also a prince and a warrior. His story centers around proving to people he isn't a monster, in more ways than one, and growing into the leader he was meant to be.
Idk if this would work as a good subversion to the #7, but the fem fatale claims the assault made her stronger, but in reality that’s just the front she puts up to get through the day. Deep in the story, When asks if she’s really okay, her walls finally come down and she admits that she’s still not over it, the memory still torments her in her sleep, and that she wishes she could be the woman she was before but really all she can do is keep moving forward. The only reason she keeps up such a strong front us because she knows she could never live with herself if she let another woman go through what she did. Her resolution is finally being able to seek therapy and get the help she needs.
Arousal is NOT consent. 100% agree!! So many books like to make the arousal of a character the unlimited green light for the other character to do what they want and make the other’s sometimes opposing or reluctant feelings of the first character somehow not important or no longer relevant. A problem I have with liking the enemies to lovers and bully type romance tropes often. Like so what the character is hot? If they are abusive or a major a-hole or mean (or all of the above) WHY does your physical reaction to their hotness make those things irrelevant? We are more than our bodies physical reactions to something/someone physically attractive. I can use my judgement and not want to mess around with someone who is horrible acting even if they are physically beautiful/handsome.
THIS!!! And the annoying thing is that the author will then try to tell us "he's not that bad" by making him save her all in a pathetic attempt to create 'a morally grey character' (that's my problem with morally grey characters. It's usually just authors getting us to empathize with assholes). Then the woman is then obligated to fall for the bastard just because he saved her and it's gross asf.
I know of a certain story where people joke about the female character enjoying being r***d even though she was so traumatized that she mentally regressed to having the mindset of a toddler to escape the reality of what happened.
This exaclty. I hate it when a male character literally gets away with SA because he's "hot" so the female character must be into him. If you wouldn't accept a behaviout from an ugly guy, don't accept it from a supposedly attactive one. Eugh.
This list MUST have the whole "female character having to fix a trash boy" trope, so disrespectful and harmful, it paints the idea that women must be ride or die and do everything for a piece of sh-t man. Edit: Just finished the video, sadly not on this list, but it's a solid list, agree on all 10 examples. Basically the first 5 tropes are offensive because they're dehumanizing and perfectly display the author's lack of common sense and, in some cases, prejudice. Characters should be treated equally, you can't be like "oh here's your token only minority character" and then there's just there to fill a quote, common do better than that. The fridging a character is also lazy writing, there are other ways to motivate your hero or set them on a journey, the fact this trope is mostly applied on female characters just adds insult to injury. The trans sex worker trope is more or less offensive because it paints a monolith, we know most trans women are in prostituition, we get it, they don't have the same opportunities, but this is not an excuse to only have them in this light.
do you want to read fairy tale or a dark fantasy? In darker fantasy there is no moral message. Even if something like that happens, it also can show the readers how bad that thing is. Like slavery is Harry Potter. It indirectly shows how sad the life of slaves is. It doesnt encourages anyone
@@Rambrus0 Of course. But what does your book say about those bad things happening? That the victims deserved it? That the bad things are inevitable and we should just give up? Or that we can and must fight back and work to make things right and make the world a better place?
Re: #7, one of my WIPs features a character who’s survived a lot of trauma, and is a badass. At some point in the story, someone says something about her trauma making her stronger, and her response is to tell them that what happened to her didn’t make her stronger, she made herself stronger with the help of her loved ones and a lot of therapy. She also calls this person out for indirectly giving her abusers the credit for her achievements.
Number 5. The only instance I have read in fiction that, in my opinion, does disabled characters correctly is from author K.C. Alexander. It was the SINless series, Necrotech and Nanoshock. It does involve cyberpunk fantasy, so you have to take that into account about the body augmentation and adjustment, but it is not the "Disabled person acts like a superhero saves the day" trope. It talked about the subtleties, the phantom pain, flashbacks, loss of control and fear, the self-meding. I've read many other books that the MC or their sidekick is disabled and can do EVERYTHING better than those around them. Being disabled myself, it feels like an absolute slap in the face. The last one is where a teen is wheelchair-bound, thrown into a "monster zone" by their guardian from the orphanage, and he can suddenly walk and sling magic while under attack from I think some minotaur. I'd be interested if anyone else has any suggestions.
One of my favorite books is all the light we cannot see by Anthony doerr. Its a World War Two historical fiction. One of the two main characters is a blind girl. As a blind person myself I think the author was able to walk a fine line between not having the character be completely helpless, while also having her struggle with her blindness. And the way she navigates the world with her disability is completely realistic. She uses a white cane, she reads braille, and her blindness is not a huge part of her character without being completely forgotten either
My least favorite trope is definitely "abusive behavior from a partner painted as romantic". Like Edward from Twilight, who was stalking Bella, sneaking into her room in the middle of the night, watching her sleep, smelling her all the time, getting upset that he can't read her thoughts... It's fucked up, and the story still makes him out to be the man you should want to spend eternity with. Not to mention he's centuries old and went after a highschooler...
Sansa went through a lot, sexual assault, yes, but also Joffery's mental abuse, betrayal, and losing her family and home. I think overcoming everything that had already happened to her previously is what made her strong enough to survive Ramsey.
Another trope I see sometimes in books is the “illogical science” trope. This is where a character in a story either dies or is saved from dying based upon an event which has no basis in fact or in true science. That might work in a fantasy the novel, but in a reality based novel? Hmmmm. Perhaps the writer was trying to promote a specific theory he or she truly believes in, but it still doesn’t make it logical. Two examples of this I have seen in books is - one book I read in which the main character’s wife dies in a minor fender bender where she suffocated from the airbag continuing to inflate. I don’t know if this has ever happened in real life, but speaking as someone who has been in a car accident in which the airbags deployed they did not continue to deploy but actually deflated after only a few seconds. The second example is a story I read in which a woman going through chemo for cancer meets and falls in love with a baseball player and by the end her cancer is cured due to, as someone in the story said, “love cured her cancer.” Um, I know a lot of people, including my own mom, who have died of cancer despite many people showing love to them. Anyway, that’s my take.
I agree with most of this. But one fact is actually that happiness makes us more resilient (not invincible though). For example, if you get a wound after having fought or argued with someone it'll heal slower than if you got the cut shortly after laughing or having fun. Obviously, love can't cure cancer, but being happy can make your body fight it better (just to be clear, it doesn't equal winning every time). Just like how positive people often regain health faster and better than negative people. Our bodies are full of chemistry, and some things do give positive effects, while others give bad ones. I knew two people whose doctors told them they'd live a certain amount of time. Both of them lived many years longer, and they were both very positive and did things they enjoyed to the extent they could and stuck around people they liked. In the end, yeah, they both died. But they got many years more than people thought.
Airbags can not suffocate you. That's just not possible by the way they're designed. They inflate to their max size and then they start to deflate _before_ your face hits the airbag cushion. If it didn't deflate before your nose made contact, it wouldn't be a soft pillow reducing damage to your spine, but like being hit in the face with a basketball at a speed of ~200km/h. It would shatter your nose and loosen some teeth. That means that the chemical reaction blowing up the airbag is calculated so that the ingredients will have reacted after a certain amount of time. So it is literally impossible to die from being suffocated by an airbag. But yeah, I don't think that that's a specific trope, it's just that the author didn't care enough to look up how things actually work and produced a gaping plot hole.
That reminds me of Gravity (spoiler ahead). Blatant violation of Newton's laws of motion (which are, like, the most basic and fundamental laws in physics, or at least classical physics) which sealed the fate of the main male character. My suspension of disbelief was so obliterated during that scene, I stopped caring about the movie altogether. I was watching it with my parents, and had to explain the physics behind why I was disappointed lol (fortunately, it was basic physics, thus simple to explain)
Airbags can totally kill people, especially those of shorter stature (which is part of the reason kids are supposed to be in car seats basically until they can get their own licenses now). I’m 5’2 and if I were to get into an accident it’s extremely likely that the airbag would break my arms and face because of how I have to have my seat arranged to be able to drive. Now by suffocation? I don’t think that’s likely. I can think of a few situations (car crumples around you, you’re paralyzed by impact, airbag deflates but can’t pull away from your face for reasons, you suffocate that way)
on 10 I agree completely in the last 15 years of my Mom's life she could barely do anything but watch tv in her bed but every day after work I came in and did exactly that till it was time to go to sleep she said life was still worth living because being dead meant there was no hope for improvement maybe if we waited long enough we'd find a cure or a miracle would happen also nothing's more boring than a corpse if you're still breathing there's hope
In general, writing trauma as something that "makes you stronger" is so overrated. Trauma doesn't make you stronger. Trauma makes you traumatised. If anything can make you stronger, it's the healing which doesn't come in the package.
So 4 of them can be combined into "don't have marginalized characters just to kill them". One bad trope I hope gets addressed is "religion is the only path to morality". I'm tired of seeing non-religious characters being portrayed as evil or immoral. It overlooks how religion and morality are two different things and how religion leads people do do evil things.
I have had religious relatives literally say to me "you have no morals" because I'm not religious. But honestly, if the only thing deterring someone from killing people or stealing or whatever is that they would be disobeying God's rules, maybe it's THEIR morals I should be worrying about...?
Just to add a bit to the conversation. When done correctly, dubcon can be a nice addition. All survivors heal differently. Some of us enjoy reading about those things. It gives us back our power. Especially if we watch the MC overcome the same things we did. Also a survivor's preferences after assault can be to prefer things like dubcon because they have the power. Everyone heals differently and it is all valid
1. 3:14 Bury your gays 2. 4:38 Dubious consent 3. 5:33 The token black character / The black character dies first 4. 6:45 Fridging a woman 5. 7:48 Inspiration porn 6. 8:41 The dead trans character 7. 9:47 "Sexual assault made me stronger" 8. 10:58 Villainizing mental illness 9. 12:13 "He takes what he wants" 10. 13:21 Better off dead
THANK YOU FOR TALKING ABOUT INSPO PORN!! (also I'm also ND and I've been watching your videos for 4 years and have always vibed with you, its always so cool when someone you love watching and relate to decides to disclose ! Love your work xx
A trope I absolutely hate, yes hate, and MANY people in m/m romance community gush over and love, is the gay for you trope. They seem to find it sweet. "Aww, they got together despite their sexuality." They have sex for the first time with no prep, no knowledge, and even perform anal sex with little prep. That's not how that works. What makes this problematic though is that it insinuates that you can find someone of the same sex, even if you're not gay. This is something that was drilled into me when I first came out, "You just need to find the right woman," and so this trope does that in reverse, "You're not straight, you just need to find the right man/woman." This trope also erases bi/pan/demi/etc. people. EVEN if it's set in a time when pan/demi/etc. didn't have a voice for who they were, bi has been around long enough that they can default to it. Bi-awakening. Or, so some kind of indication that this person had a crush or sexual interest in another person of the same sex prior to this meeting. Not some love at first sight suddenly I want to be with this person of the same sex despite having never shown interest before and I'm still straight except this one person. It happens way more often in m/m romance. I wonder what would happen if they tried to write a straight for you romance. Wonder if it's out there.
Fridging a Woman: This also falls into misunderstanding how painful losing a loved one can really be and, in a bit of a twisted sense of fairness, also perpetuates a harmful stereotype about men. There's a good chance that if you lost your spouse to a painful death, you'd just shut down. The stereotype being that men cannot/should not feel depression, helplessness, or weakness.
Perfect timing, Jenna. I’ve had a horrible day, and you know damn well how to make me smile and laugh. Also, one of my most hated tropes is, while I love Jekyll and Hyde, some brainless idiots think it’s representation for DID (news flash: IT’S NOT!) and use it for a VERY harmful stereotype! I do everything I can to avoid this, especially for my Jekyll and Hyde inspired story, which is why I’m a little bit informed about DID, despite not having it.
@caitlyncarvalho7637 It’s supposed to be about repression, not DID. Jekyll uses Hyde as a mask so he can indulge in things that would damage his reputation as a scientist. It’s a lot more layered and complex than I can explain, there a few videos that explain it better than I can.
Re: Mentally ill villains, it's important for people to remember that mental illness and neurodivergence aren't a monolith. Second, it's a lazy cop-out to just have your villain be generically and stereotypically CUH-RAY-ZAY. It's fine to write a villain who is callous, paranoid, megalomaniacal, self-obsessed, sadistic, and/or plagued by delusions or hallucinations, but it pays to put some thought and research into your creation and depiction of these characters so they don't come across as insulting, tropey, or implausible to your audience.
Some mental illnesses do cause people to act crazy, there's no lie there. I really don't believe those people have to be coddled to the point where no writer is allowed to portray them in their troubled state.
@@ranip7644 , agreed! For example, I think it's more than realistic and reasonable to have your villain be a psychopath, a narcissist, or a "Dark Triad" type, or someone who is being driven by their profound trauma. Me, I'm annoyed by lazy, stereotypical/tropey (and often inaccurate) portrayals of schizophrenia/psychosis, autism, BPD, and OCD especially.
Ngl these are all very useful to keep in mind. Though I’ll also add a hidden #11 trope to avoid just cause :) SA on men pulled for laughs. Essentially take non consensual acts performed on your female characters up to and including r**e, but instead have the victim be a man (and in many cases, the perp is usually a woman in this trope) and play it off as comedic or otherwise not take it seriously. It sends a pretty bad message. Implying that men can’t be r**ed, and if the writer doesn’t take it seriously, chances are the readers/ audience won’t take it seriously either. Everyone can commit or be a victim of SA and everyone deserves to be heard and taken seriously, and I feel this should be reflected in fiction, regardless of gender. Apologies for the rant but I felt it was worth adding.
Concerning the "fridging a woman" trope, I would also like to add that having a wife, girlfriend, etc. with a chronic illness or the like being used to fuel the MC and having that be their only character development is just as bad. Even if the illness or disability or whatever it is is portrayed accurately, if their only purpose in the story is to fuel a man they still don't count as a real character. I can't tell you how many times I have seen things like "I don't want to kill people, but I if I don't, Debbie will die" kind of things.
@@martinwilmoth6268 um no it's not. It's just a saying to help people cope with death. It lets them know that the dead person is doing well after death
It should be mentioned that not every time a female character in a relationship is killed it's Fridging. Like, it really depends on specific circumstances.
If you build up the female character at all then it is not fridging. Fridging is when you use the token character *only* to provide a motivation to a different character. Fridging isn't that common outside of bad writing.
I feel like a good rule of thumb is when it's framed that the real tragedy is how it affects the mc rather than the tragedy being the actual death, then that is fridging. Though that can be tricky because sometimes from a utilitarian point of view, some characters primary purpose in a story is to die to drive the plot. But if it feels like that to the reader, it's bad writing. Also when it comes to killing female characters, it has the extra baggage of the way they are killed can reinforce bad stereotypes. Like if a female character dies and it's framed as extra super duper tragic because she was so helpless and fragile and died because there was no one there to protect her... then that is already pretty bad and stereotypical, and it becomes one of the worse forms of fridging if her death was also just to upset/motive a male character.
Tbh i have no issue with killing gay characters. You don't need to kill off a straight character to make it not homophobic. Just make sure that their death isn't because they were gay. Unless that's the point of the story, like writing a gay character in 1940's germany, where lgbt people were specifically targeted. But just having a character who happens to be gay die isn't exactly bad.
@tamiasmith2097 Jojo rabbit did this very well, captain K was a closeted gay nazi officer who was ultimately killed by the soviets in the end, they didn't even know he was gay, they just shot him because he was captured in nazi uniform, despite him secretly being against the nazi party in the end.
Thank you for talking about how sexual assault is handled so so so very poorly. Yet, I feel like it's in everything nowadays. It's also heavily defended, even when it's depicted in vile full screen long 3-5 minute scenes. (Or in "I Spit on Your Grave's" case, a full 20-minute graphic scene.) There have been studies that show how not only does this actually cause illness in past survivors, but also returns to self harm or attempted s*icide. (I myself am guilty of the latter. I was having a totally normal, fine day when a scene of Game of Thrones sent me into an event where the cops got involved... This stuff is no joke) One thing I think is particularly odd is... if you're gonna show a long graphic scene to "emphasize the victim's suffering" then why is there never any blood? People bleed from both anal and vaginal r@pe yet no blood? Why miss out on an opportunity to make the scene even worse if you're already depicting it in full with that very goal? It's almost like the creators didn't do their research and just wanted to add r@pe for some extra spice but don't want to be called out on it. It's also disgusting how the actors are treated during those scenes, too. Funny how a contract can loop an unaware actor into being assaulted.
I put blood in mine. Felt quite sick after writing it. Still thought it had to be done that way, i just can't sanitize violence. I hope my subtext warning is enough, i do not wish to harm anyone
Must be difficult to write an engaging story when you surround yourself with a minefield the size of this one! Thanks for the interesting insight into why Hollywood is about to go bankrupt.
Doesn’t traumatic backstory used to show either strength, overcoming it or certain behavioral trates. For example Kakashi his father killer himself when he was 9, his best friend died protecting him, his love interest was killed by his hands, and his father figure sacrificed himself for his village. However even with all that he still smiles, it drives him to be stronger and it explains why he acts the way he does.
I think 90% of all the common relationship tropes belong on this list: Fetishized domestic violence from authors who don't know the difference between BDSM and abuse, cheating being ok, if the protagonist does it, on-off-relationships, sex between students and teachers or employees and bosses, often als presented as some sort of weird fetish. Not to forget the "you have to try harder" trope for a lack of a better name, where a boy is ignored or ridiculed by a girl first, but continues to do anything to impress her and in the end they become a couple. It doesn't work that way and sends a wrong message, that is harmful to anyone involved in a similar situation in real life.
She probably wrote those in the original list, since she talks about those tropes often, but that there were ones she talks less about and those were prioritised.
Great video One of the things to take away from this video is that forced diversity is bullshit. We should stop nagging authors to include every minority group in their stories cos not everyone can execute it well. A story (particularly high fantasy) must not include everyone race, sexuality, disability etc. Authors should be able to write what they're comfortable writing about instead of shoe-horning minorities just to be 'inclusive'. I'm a black woman but I don't need to see people like me in a novel or movie for me to enjoy it or feel good about myself. I'd rather read an all-white novel that is incredibly entertaining and gripping than read a novel with token black characters that are treated like crap. Everyone should write freely. If as a reader you want 'representation' petition writers that have things in common with you rather than the ones that can't possibly relate so they won't go writing rubbish. And Authors please don't force fake diversity into your novels just because that stuff sells. Be true to yourself while writing.
I'm writing a fantasy series where only two humans are part of the protagonist's traveling party which consists of six to seven characters(one of them doesn't travel with the party all the time). The protagonist herself is not human but her love interest is. I consider that diversity especially considering that in my fantasy world, humans were never actually supposed to exist along with the protagonist's race(or species but that sounds too sci-fi for this particular setting). I also have a good mix of male and female characters in the party. The females actually out number the males but I made sure they are actual characters instead of just strong independent woman type stuff.
If people can't discern real from fiction, then they have a lot of underlying issues that shouldn't be blamed on the work of fiction. People can watch "Joker" and not go crazy
One trope I hate is the Cartwright curse, it's when you kill off or otherwise remove the main characters or a side characters love interest for a variety of reasons. I hate this trope, its annoying when they break up off screen but when they kill their love interests off everytime. It just always comes off as dumb and needless.
In case anyone didn't know and I honestly expected her to add it in, Fridging got it's name from the Kyle Rayner Green Lantern story where he discovered his dead girlfriend inside his refrigerator. It was a really screwed up story.
I really doubt Jenna even knows who Kyle Rayner is 😂 Sure she probably knows who Green Lantern is but not Kyle. That story came out in the 90s and I think it became controversial much later.
@@whosaidthat84 I had heard from somewhere that the term came from that story. I could be wrong tho. It's been years since then. I kinda wiki binged in the late 00s to catch up with modern comics at the time.
@@Zarreth I think you're right that it came from that story. I believe the character who killed her was named Major Force. From my memory, I don't quite recall that moment being so controversial, but then again I was just a kid back then.
@@whosaidthat84 yeah it was major force. It's pretty much what the story is known for bc of the shock value. They made Kyle alot more grounded like a lot of the heroes in the late 90s after image comics took off so they tried to do violent spectacles instead of grandiose stories. This was one of the outcomes that went too far.
I feel like there’s one stereotypes that I find pretty toxic tho . But it’s not here yet. Maybe bc it’s incredibly common But I think a hero born powerful and a villian who practiced to be powerful is pretty toxic. It tells people who’s seen as being born or starting “worse” than someone else like being less intelligent and being weaker to not try. Also thank you so much for talking about the stuff with neurodivergent character since I’m also neurodivergent like you and I’m also sick of it
That sounds like a setup for role subversion. Ie: the hero becomes a spoiled brat who has everything handed to them and the villain grows and changes to become a better person as a result of their hard work.
While there is some good points here, you have a condescending air about you that im not a fan of. "This should be easy." "If you cant, then dont." "This will cause real harm". Nah nah.
The "SA makes you stronger" trope makes me think of a character I'm writing into a series, if I ever finish it. Content warning for below, I describe part of the story im working on vaguely and it references a lot of traumatic stuff that happened to a fictional character while they were a child. At the point in the story its brought up what happened in his past. It isn't used to make him look stronger. It is however used in a way to explain some of his incongruent behaviors and attitudes. Without spoiling it, his childhood had a lot of issues around parental neglect, parental drug abuse, death in the family, and as mentioned above give the topic SA and R. and as a young adult he isn't "stronger due to his trauma" he instead has a tone of hang ups, insecurities, and bad coping mechanism to go along with his frequent nightmares and strong aversion to intimacy or trusting people in general. He does slowly recover throught the story as a supportive and healthy network of friends is formed as well as having a good adoptive parental figure who took him in after.... stuff happened to what was left of his bio family.
Not sure how the character will turn out in the end (if they'll turn out at all), but at least it seems you got the basics right - trauma messes with people a lot, not makes them stronger; "trauma" is Greek for wound, for goodness sake, how wounds make people stronger?! The part about recovery through supportive environment is also really important. When a character grows stronger after trauma, I'm fairly certain it's never because of trauma itself, but because of the help and support that counteracts it. I feel one thing that gets overlooked is how events after trauma can soften or exacerbate adverse effects. Even if two people experienced the same traumatic event in a very similar way, the long-term effects might still differ wildly depending on whether they received adequate support afterwards, or they were subjected to doubts, ridicule and other forms of secondary victimisation.
@@AlphishCreature assuming I finish the story at some point. He should turn out well enough. Not 100%, but able to cope in a healthier way on the things that don't get or can't be resolved cleanly and compleatly. The Joy's of trauma sticking with you well after one has "recovered". Might no longer be a gapping wound but it's still gonna leave a scar
That makes me think of high school movies where that's usually the case. I honestly think just about every villain type should be allowed (just dont make the villain the ONLY character with a certain mental illness, disability or deformity). People in real life vary a lot in personality, opinions, outlook on life and with what reason they may do some evil action, the type of evil action as well. Some may genuinely think they do the right thing, some want revenge (possibly with valid reason), others may be greedy for money, or in some cases genuinely desperate for money, and some are insane which could lead them to hurt others as well (that's far from saying ALL insane or mentally ill people turn evil or dangerous)
I personally don't like 9. I won't read or write it, but I know a lot of people who enjoy that kind of romance and they are not idealizing those stories. There is this perception about women and romance, that we're too stupid to know the difference between fantasy and reality. I don't know a single woman who reads those books who thinks that way (I'm a romance author of 17 published books with a lot of author friends). In fact, several of my most kick ass friends, love those kind of books, but, having been confronted with this kind of judgement over and over, will loudly tell people they would kick a guy's a** if he tried that with them. I have one friend in particular who put it something like this, I'm taking huge liberties in paraphrasing because It's been a while since I saw this comment. 'Dark romance books provide a safe space to explore darker fantasies. It doesn't mean the women writing or reading them want a man like this, or would even tolerate them.' My friend doesn't tolerate them, but loves these books. She's a very savvy woman in this area, a survivor of abuse and, honestly, if you were in a relationship with an 'alphahole' (a term she introduced me to) like this, you would want her in your life and on your side. I find these books enraging, but I will absolutely defend an author's right to write them and a readers right to read them. We need to stop treating other women like moronic idiots who need to be coddled. This in itself is a problematic and very real world way men infantalise women and justify 'stewardship' over us.
Yes, this! I write dark erotica because the dark romances tend to make me angry, but I'm deep in the dark romance community. It took me years and years to get over the guilt of liking and wanting to write this stuff because of the idea that writing/having dark fantasies = promoting sexual assault in real life. I've also encountered lots of sexual assault survivors who enjoy dubcon and noncon, so I'm not a fan of blanket statements about what survivors want and don't want in their fiction.
@@Salukiprincess This was something I wanted to say, but wasn't sure about approaching it. I have experienced SA and while I don't like dark romance, it's not in the least triggering for me. The men in these stories make me angry and I don't get it myself (even thought I do occasionally have dark fantasies, I even get pissed at the guys in them and end up dismissing them because I get so enraged it kills the whole thing! 🤣 I'm just NOT the target audience) but I do know several survivors of SA and DA who read them for cathartic effect but are very clear that they will never allow another guy who raises flags in their life again. I'll never forget the woman in one facebook group who commented on a post about a mmc in a DR, she wrote something like, 'would totally break this guy's nose irl if he tried this s**t on me, but in these books I can't get enough!' 🤣🤣🤣 That's the thing about the 'target audience'. It's like when I get a bad review. I know some authors who have full on meltdowns, but my attitude is 1. the reviews aren't for me, they're for the readers, and 2. They not one of my readers. It's that simple. I'm not a DR author. A lot of people won't like my books because of the niche I write in. If it's not your thing, move on. 🤷♀️
@@lucypeace6132 Yes! I've come across tons of similar comments from DR readers. I think the target audience is a lot more self-aware than people give them credit for. And yeah, I really do wish people would focus more on helping readers find/avoid certain books and less on trying to ban or shame people out of writing "morally bad" books. I'm not sure if this is more of a concern for children, but I strictly write for adults, and have never encountered one of these dubcon/noncon books that was aimed at anyone under 18. I dunno what the YA landscape looks like, though.
There’s nothing wrong with having a man be motivated by losing the woman he loves. It shows the readers how important she was to him and how much he loved her. Nobody bats an eye when it’s done the other way around… Just write what you want to write. Trying to placate everyone is pointless. You could write the perfect book and someone somewhere will have a problem with it simply to be problematic. 🤷🏻♀️
Bingo. I think it's so common because people can relate to it on such a deep, visceral level: everyone fears this happening, and no one doubts the power of such a tragedy. To play devil's advocate, however, I DO see why people would have a problem with writers who don't give us time/reason to connect to the lost love: it's hard to feel connected to an abstraction, so it can feel like very lazy storytelling if it's rushed in the pursuit of other narrative developments (which may be more interesting to the writer). Nonetheless, I still wouldn't call that "problematic." To this point, I've done similarly in some of my writings, simply because it _made sense,_ and in one as part of a twist: it's the main character's one friendly/familial love amid a childhood of abuse. She's situationally idealized, cementing the notion of goodness and innocence, and her senseless murder in his youth cements the notion of corruption and injustice, serving as a catalyst on his long path toward righteous villainy. (Basically, she's Socrates to his Plato, if Plato appointed himself judge, jury, and executioner.) She's absolutely there for the narrative arc, _but it works._ Some characters are best meant to die. Kill them all!
@@AurorXZ Exactly, and I do see your point, but that’s from a practical reader perspective and makes perfect sense, of course we want everything to make sense. This list of “problematic tropes” just sounds a little like readers want zero bad things to ever happen to the characters, and putting restrictions on writers just makes no sense, especially in fiction. If you think a book is going to offend or “trigger” or upset you in any way then just don’t read it😅 maybe check out the genre or read the summary first and use some common sense lol. I’m a pretty picky reader myself, I have an editor brain so I can get very particular about things, but people are being way too critical these days. If you don’t like it then don’t read it. That simple! Because as much as I hate certain tropes, when tropes are done correctly, they can be SO good and really give meat to the story. Also, these “tropes” are more realistic than people think. Some people who experience assault DO come out a little thicker skinned after having experienced the darkest parts of humanity, and as a result it makes them more cautious. Losing loved ones really does motivate people in different ways. I think the people who are complaining about men losing their women are missing the point. They just want someone to get on a soap box and preach about but they don’t stop and realize that the man feels weaker when he loses the woman he loved because she made him feel stronger, SHE was his rock. This was done in the Netflix Punisher series and it’s frickin AWESOME. It shows the love and tenderness he had for his family and makes you root for him that much more…even though he’s low key kinda an antihero😂
@@katelynharrison3779 Totally agreed there! This type of moralistic plot policing is well intentioned but absolutely _killing creativity._ We all just want a good story, dammit!
@@katelynharrison3779 Just saw the edit, and YES! To support one point, trauma _does_ sometimes make us stronger. I was shocked to recently learn that "post-traumatic growth" is both an established thing, AND more common than PTSD. (Scott Kaufman's literature is great on this) Insisting that trauma is inherently damning-and thus teaching people to disproportionately fear it-primes everyone to be worse off. One might say ... it's problematic.
I see your point, Jenna, and I don't disagree with you on ALL of these, but as a writer myself I think we need to take a more serious approach to reaching out to people who not only "internalize" fiction but can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality instead of "oh let's just change the tropes". A story is a story at the end of the day, not real life. Dunno I think there's a balance to be struck here we're not striking.
I’ve been thinking about this too. Apparently there is never any responsibility on readers to think critically. I’m not saying writers shouldn’t also think critically about what messages they’re sending through their narrative. And the more writers know about people different from themselves and seek to truly understand them, the more likely they will have compelling characters that people can really relate to. But it is really important for anyone enjoying any piece of media to question what they’re taking in.
Sometimes the media we consume are internalized into our subconscious and we have no control over that. It kinda sucks but the responsibility still falls back on writer's not to enforce negative stereotypes. For example, women being attracted to toxic men that treat them badly because of crappy romance novels that glorify abuse.
@@evangelinemmayie6116 that's bull. If women didn't put out a demand for toxic romance books, they wouldn't exist. How about people think about what they're consuming and if it has a negative effect on them stop consuming it. No, it is NOT the writers' responsibility. We're writers not life coaches. We are only obligated to tell a story.
Really glad you posted this! As a trans person, I'm so tired of the trans person being the butt of the joke, the sex worker, and the murder victim. Here's another trope I hate: If you're attractive, being a stalker is cute and quirky. WRONG! Being a stalker is just creepy. The "I was forced into it but I eventually enjoyed it so it's okay" is also EXTREMELY problematic.
The lesson is to write for yourself first and for others second. This is what I'm doing right now and it's so liberating. I hate to compare myself to Tolkien because it sounds so arrogant... But his works were for his own pleasure, he didn't allow others to dictate his stories. And it shows - the passion and love that went into his books is palpable in every page.
⚠️⚠️⚠️ Trigger warning: Sexual assault ⚠️⚠️⚠️ Just saying, sexual assault can make you stronger. Said as a survivor myself. That's what happened in my case. It was a hard road but it happened. It forced me to grow up. It doesn't make me some badass hero who kicks butt though 😂 It just made me the strong person I am today I feel. I don't think it necessarily needs to be in fiction, and I definitely see the problem there, but if you have written a few books without it, and the writer is a survivor and that happened to be their case, I don't think it should require criticism. Especially ESPECIALLY if they write another main character that gets sexually assaulted, and they have the COMPLETE opposite response to it. Where they let their life slip away between their fingers, stop bathing, under or over eat, become insanely depressed, and drop out of school. If I hadn't been sexually assaulted, I would NOT have found the will to get through college. Does that make what happened ok? Absolutely not, and that is not what I'm getting at. I'm just saying it isn't remotely implausible to have that occur because I'm living proof. I didn't want to give him the satisfaction of knowing I dropped out of college because I had to see him every day. So I got through college just so that I could prove to him that he might have had control then, but he didn't have control of me anymore. But my friend had something similar happen, and she let depression take over her entire life and still does. She moved back in with her dad, has no job (not that I have one, so I'm not trying to bash here. I'm just trying to say different people react differently and if that's presented, it shouldn't really be a problematic trope. But 100% the character who gets stronger needs to say that it isn't ok that they were sexually assaulted, and there needs to be more than one character representing the other side of things because BOTH responses are equally as valid), became an addict, and stays in bed all day every day pretty much. Never goes out or spends time with friends, never bathes, overeats, and dropped out of college after it happened. This was 7 years ago and she's not recovered any unfortunately. So as a survivor, I'd say, if you have to do it, have several books written without it, then have TWO characters in the SAME book that are SAed, preferably both main characters and not just mentioned characters or side characters, that's not really going to cut it here unfortunately. Where one character goes stronger and the other let's depression take over. Maybe a plot can be trying to help that person get back on their feet. But if you have two main characters in the book have that experience. Maybe at the same time by the same person, or by different people at different times and in different ways. Because no two sexual assaults are the same. My friend was SAed by someone she considered a friend. My SA was done by my boyfriend at the time. Different people have different kinks, it can be opportunistic or it can be planned. Can happen under duress or they can just be stronger than you. And women 1,000% can sexually assault a man. All these are potential factors in why two sexual assaults never the same. Maybe one escapes and another is set free. Who knows! Just write an epic scene if it's a main point. But you NEED to have two main characters have that happen to them and two totally different responses after it happens if you want to make the toxic trope not toxic. Then you make the toxic trope that falsely says that it's ok to sexually assault people because it will make them stronger (Again, absolutely not true because it's NEVER NEVER ok to sexually assaulted anyone ever!!) to saying, hey, sexual assault happens and it's ok if you've gone through this no matter how you're coping with it, because you're just doing your best to stay afloat after something awful happened and accurately portraying what the aftermath is like. I would call it advocacy. That being said, please don't make sexual assault the entire character. Not every characteristic is going to stem from the sexual assault. They aren't going to become good at everything they're good because of it or bad at everything they're bad at because of it. Maybe they were funny before and make very morbid jokes after the sexual assault. Maybe like my friend, they were good at cooking and loved cooking before that happened. Now they do it to cope and start their own restaurant or bakery or maybe they eat everything they make and gain weight. Either is ok! But you have to have one character do well after and the other do worse after. And just because they get worse, doesn't mean they can't recover, but it's going to take a lot of time and a lot of work after. I wouldn't even make the stronger character completely better after the attack even if it was years ago. Make some kind of issue still exists like PTSD. It's there for me even though it happened years ago. I don't know if I'm right, but this is my opinion as a writer who has been sexually assaulted and become stronger because of it. This is just my opinion. Accurate representation in my opinion is everything if multiple characters have completely different outcomes because of it and if the stronger character still hasn't completely gotten their normal sense of life back after it
fridging is a hard topic especially in murder mystery story where the victim often are simply bystanders who have not much connection to the murderer as they both barely know each other , but i think it is best to shown some origin story after the mystery was solved showing us the life of the victim and what they have experienced before becoming a victim to a murder i think this at least let the audience knew that she isnt just a victim but also a human with their own stories and goal fridging can be used but as long as it have important purpose other than to let the MC get revenge (i like to think of what would theyre family think or will this cause a feud between the two family like i have one story where a girl was being fridge but i think i need to write her goal and origin story first so she wasnt just a disposable character) just like the first as long as they have theyre goal motives and story they could be consider a character instead of disposable character (this is my opinion free to tell me what you think as long as it is not spoken badly)
I’m a severe abuse survivor and in some way it made me stronger, I’m not a victim anymore. But I agree on that is usually handled poorly in the media. Also that’s only my experience and doesn’t go with other people.
I think many of these tropes could still work depending on the various situations the characters could be written in, how they're written in, etc. I think it just all depends.
Absolutely calling out A Little Life with the last one (but it’s a double combo because the MC would be ‘better off dead’ on account of trauma AND disability) and I’ve never gotten angrier at a book in my whole life. The fact that Hanya can just go on interviews and state that in her opinion some people are just ‘too broken to be fixed’ while in the same breath mentioning she did no research into trauma, disability or the people who live with it is just enraging. How fucking dare you is right.
Went to the comments hoping to see someone point this out. I didn't read it but read a summary and then found the same comments from the author, and the whole thing just reeked of trauma porn and pity, and I've been really uncomfortable with the intense praise I've seen for the book.
@5:33 could also be "the token nonwhite character" and "the token nonwhite character dies first". Just saying. @6:46 for those who didn't know, "Women in Refrigerators" was coined by comics writer Gail Simone after Alexandra Dewitt, Green Lantern Kyle Rayner's girlfriend, was murdered by the supervillain Major Force, who then stuffed her body in her refrigerator, where Kyle discovered her. @9:48 the comics series "The Boys" (source material for the Amazon series) SERIOUSLY called out that trope
"Women can be... any other assertive trait without first being demeaned." A close friend of mine is a woman that, when she was a young girl, was repeatedly sexually abused by an older woman. Sexual violence doesn't have a gender, so the "by a man" bit at the end is unnecessary.
@@hogndog2339 It is true that men are always the abuser and the violent ones in a lot of fiction, but I think sexual violence and sexual abuse needs to discuss for all genders though. There is a book book called A Child Called "It" and it's a biographical story of a coming of age boy who's abuser was the mother, a female (it gets rather brutal and it's one of those stories where you need to be in the right frame of mind and to be cautious if anyone is wiling to ever read it). Just an example how these horrific abuses can happen to anyone. It's horrible and disgusting and demeaning to anyone. And I wish we as a society in general need to be open that anyone that goes through horrific abuse. Like what the other person said, sexual violence and any abuse doesn't have a gender.
Some of these tropes aren't necessarily bad in a vaccuum, but they become very problematic with the framing in the story. Having a woman overcoming a sexual assualt and learning to adapt to the trauma and how it affects her daily life is a fine narrative to tackle, but it's generally not what a writer focuses on. The assault is just a shortcut button for "strong female character," which is gross. For the aggressive male character, this isn't necessarily bad in a story, but it IS when the story always frames the behaviour as romantic or eventually desired. Even if the partner shows resistance at first, it's eventually accepted as okay in the narrative framing so the behaviour "seems forgiven" when it's still gross. In short, it's not wrong to use some of them, but writers need to be aware of the negative aspects of the tropes and don't wield them carelessly.
@@xAlecto An even more succinct way of putting it is TVTropes's "Tropes are tools". Use a large plumbing wrench to bash an innocent person over the skull, that's a bad use for that tool. Use the same tool to stop the flooding in someone's basement, that's a good usage of that tool. Now, what if you use the wrench to bash a home invader cause you had no better weapon at hand? Incidentally, I just came to the realization that the last example is what I essentially did with a character.
I feel same thing goes for mentally ill villains: If it is a story about someone who is ill and because of the Illness, mixed with its social stigma and misstreatment turns evil hits very different than "yeah, this guy has Borderline, so he is basically Hitler". "Joker" (while not perfect by any means) hits very different, than lets say Cletus Cassedy in Venom II.
@@Jan-gh7qi - This is true, though I think Jenna is right that if the story only has the “villains” dealing with mental illness, it still sends a bad message. Most regular people deal with some sort of mental or emotional strain in life, so not having at least one protagonist living and coping with a mental illness can still send the message that “only people with a mental illness will become a murderer (or whatever).” Consider how the US often blames school shootings on “kids who were bullied and mentally unwell” rather than any other possible cause-this creates a stigma on mental illness as being dangerous when many people with a mental illness function fine in real life, especially if they have access to the proper resources to help them.
I agree. It really depends on the creators on how they handle controversial topics, especially in regards of sexual assault. I highly recommend the show I May Destroy You and how the show deals with the subject of sexual assault in both interesting and different types of ways other stories regarding sexual assault are told. It brings up interesting topics regarding the blurred lines on what is considered consent and what isn’t and the show keeps the “survivor of sexual violence” troupe in regards to their main female protagonist, but the show does a brilliant job in using that trope to allows the audience to journey through amazing character arc and truly understand the main character the end. We, as the audience, understand who she is on a personal level, and some may not agree with her decisions at the end of the show, we, as the audience, can understand the reasons behind her actions.
Thank you so much, Jenna, for incorporating the neurodivergent/mental health tropes into this video. I can hardly think of stories that write relatable ND characters or ones that struggle with mental health. They’re either 1) Only there to help the main character or 2) Are only known for their disability or tragedy. I do have a future story in mind that comes from how I experience my autism, so I’m glad I can look back on this video.
Id recommend Brandon Sandersons Stormlight Archives. I think every member of the main cast, save for Adolin, is either ND or struggles with a form of mental illness, and theyre all handled exceptionally well. Without spoiling much, one of the main characters, Kaladin. His struggle with his own mental health and depression. A lot of moments i resonated with, and hit home. Its a series Id recommend highky
Jenna is right sexual assault in the real world more often produces people who are depressed by their experience , if lucky take advantage of therapy and go on to live normal lives.
I will say for the fridging the woman one. Death can be a good motivator for the main character, I dont think that it matters if its a woman or not. If it happens to be a woman that's fine. However men are also just as helpful. Honestly when its just like a best friend or something like that, it actually makes the scene more impactful than the common version of the trope. However do what works best for your story. Just definitely don't go out of your way to make it a woman. Thats more where the problem comes in.
I think a lot of times, fridging is made worse by surrounding issues that highlight the fact that a certain group is conveniently getting shafted. Not only are women getting fridged, but they're made helpless, weak, or stuck in soft or stereotypical roles, among other things. Ya feel me?
@@ramenbomberdeluxe4958yeah, which theres nothing wrong with a person in general from time to time ending up in that sort of position even. But the frequency of specific groups yeah. Should be a lot rarer for someone to be completely defenseless. (in reference to books still)
@@ramenbomberdeluxe4958 and it’s often not of their own doing. It’s often a thing done because they’re associated with another character. Double so if the death is offscreen.
I think the main issue is, its overused (not necessarily "always bad", and it sure can be emotionally impactful) and overlooks other ways the hero would be motivated. Like couldn't he be motivated to help simply from witnessing terrible things done to others, if they are a good person to begin with that has a sense of justice and sympathy? It doesn't have do be their personal loved ones. And it doesn't have to be death either. It could be slavery, torture, long lasting abuse, oppression/persecution of a group etc. As a teenager (and maybe even now if put in the right situation), I would have fought and risked my life to save others from these things. Why is it so seldom used in fiction, when it could actually be a motivation in real life? If a character is gonna get killed of to motivate the protagonist, then they should ideally first get to actually play a role in the story and have a distinct personality
These are excellent points and thank you for giving us these pearls of wisdom. One other thing though, where did you get those adorable snake earrings?? I love them so much!
To be honest I don't think people should really connect their real life with fic specially fantasy books cz one can't restrict from writing others in different style but it's problematic if people are really inspiring themselves from these books. That's utterly stupid in my view bc fic/fantasy is for experiment and entertainment. Fic and real life can never be same
5:26 For dubious consent, I suppose this may have been part of the "bad readings" Alessandro Serenelli had taken in before thinking he could talk Maria Goretti into changing a no to a yes, and got furious and killed her when discovering it wasn't so. I'd agree on this one.
You gave anxiety, etc. as examples of mental illness a writer could give their heroes but I've never seen anxiety treated as a villain's mental illness. That seems to be mixing up the term used in fiction with the much broader term as it's used clinically. Mental illness in fiction seems to refer specifically to delusion, sociopathy or some non-specific, Joker-style erratic zaniness that isn't actually any mental illness that exists. (Joker is said to have every mental illness in the book, which is impossible because some illnesses totally contradict each other and having every form of anxiety and depression and OCD would make the Joker completely unable to accomplish anything.)
The only ones that come to my mind are both soldiers; the patient in The Outer Limits s1e8 The Human Factor and Michael Biehn's character in The Abyss. EDIT: There's Smith in Netflix's Lost In Space but I'm not sure that's clinical anxiety.
Because Anxiety is a lame trait for a vilain to have. They will probably be afraid of fighting the hero and be nervous all the time. A good writer can probably handle it but it can make for a boring villain
If "yOu'Re NoT lIkE tHe OtHeRs, ThIs Is PrOgReSsIvE, GoOd AnD/oR rOmAnTiC" nonsense isn't on the list in the future... No, your main girl/minority insert/"redeemed" villain isn't "one of the good ones", they're _just_ like the others more often than not, and your cast isn't doing anyone any favors by ignoring that character internalized pieces of the culture/group they're originally from to focus on how they're not the stereotype they've always heard instead of realizing that *MAYBE* that group isn't a mass of stereotypical behavior. No favors at all.
Hate these absolute statements about tropes. 1. Maybe someone is writing about the evils of killing LBGT people. How do you build suspense around an LBGT character if there isn't the possibility of them dying? 2. No means no. I remember talking with a childhood friend who delighted in telling how she tormented her husband to be, making him chase her relentlessly. To her, no didn't mean no, it meant try harder. No means no is too one dimensional and doesn't represent real life, and limits conflict. This brings up memories of watch my mother watch TV in the 60's. A story that liberals would love today, of strong, independent women, she hated, as it wasn't romantic. She definitely wouldn't have agreed with you. 3. Blacks, like LGBT, can't have suspense built around them because you can't kill them off? Kill a white guy first? Got ya. 4. Don't kill women. Same as 1 and 3. Can you fridge a dog? I guess fridging a man is OK? 7. My generation: What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Today's generation: Everything makes you a victim. 8. Mental illness. Sigh. The villain shouldn't wear glasses or hearing aids either, eh? Walking with a limp, have a lisp, have anxiety disorders? Aren't stories supposed to be INCLUSIVE? These "problematic" tropes just sound like liberal views on tropes, and if you look at it, you are essentially saying don't kill POC, LBGT or women; which leaves what? Just kill straight white men? Everyone has a thin skin, so just write about purple people from another planet who are perfect, so no one is offended when they die? What, the villain had acne? Oh my god, so do I! My life is ruined! I grew up watching movies from Asia where the white guy was often the villain. Jackie Chan's City Hunter is one of my favorite movies. As a Polish descendent, I kept Polish joke books as a child. They were funny. As a white, Polish guy, It's ok, it doesn't scar you. Maybe it makes you stronger, thicker skinned, more adept at surviving to be the butt of jokes or characterization than would being coddled. It's a cruel world out there, people learn to survive it without safe spaces. As it is, now that I know your viewpoint, if I see a woman, an LBGT or black character in your books, I'll feel no suspense related to them, because I know they will survive. Boring.
I haven't been watching the WoT series for _several_ reasons, but when I found out the gave Perrin a wife _just_ so they could fridge her I was so offended and outraged that they would not only fuck with Robert Jordan's characters _so badly_ but in literally one of the *_laziest ways imaginable_* that I was at a loss of actual words for a good half minute. On an unrelated note, why the hell are the people from the Two Rivers both white _and_ mixed ethnicity? Pick one - I don't care which. That location is supposed to be largely homogeneous due to being largely, if not entirely, comprised of a very small number of survivors of a war _centuries_ in the past. With the _sole exception_ of Rand, everyone else in that fairly _isolated_ region should look essentially similar in ethnicity. Jordan did a good job with diversity and Brandon Sanderson did even better, so forcing it in such a sloppy way is just... bad. They also rushed things along, which is probably alright, though they scrambled the order a little. If they don't do better with the 2nd season though they're gonna have a hard time finishing what they started. Honestly, they really should have done an animated series. Like, get the guys who did Marvel's AU series and Avatar the Last Airbender together and make it _right._
Re: Why is the Two Rivers multicultural Because there was no way they were going to have them all be white/mediterranean in appearance & raceswapping everyone would never be accepted either. As for them doing better in season 2, it's not likely, they're reportedly going to diverge from the books even more & some of the leaked stuff is just bad. The showrunner has made it clear enough he's not going to even attempt to adapt it faithfully & we should take him at his word.
The moment I saw Nineveh pushing Eugene off a cliff to seemingly initiate her I decided that they didn't understand their characters. I'm so gutted to hear that perrin was done so dirty. Especially since all fans know he gets married in later books, like what the hell is the point of a dead wife. (I've only seen trailers, but didn't want to risk it lol)
@@bookworm975 SPOILER ALERT Well, I don't know if it's really a spoiler since it happens in the first episode, and is mostly about the setup, but they made it where his wife's death is the direct result of something he does, and he carries that guilt with him throughout much of the first season. I don't know how things went down in the books, and I do feel bad for the wife, but as a casual viewer I feel it added an interesting layer to his character, without which he would be completely bland and uninteresting (as presented in the show). Honestly though, I found most of the characters pretty bland in the show. I think it took me several episodes just to remember everyone's names, figure out what was special about them and start caring about any of them. I assume they're presented better in the books.
@@knightsabre7 In the books the Emond's Field 5 are all romantically naïve at the beginning, everyone in town assumes Rand & Egwene will get together eventually but they haven't yet when the story starts. Rand, Mat, and Perrin all envy each other's apparent skill when talking with women, not realizing that none of them really know what they're doing. BOOK SPOILERS: Perrin is the first to marry, but it's not until book 4.
Very relevant list. Unfortunately, I can think of several books from each of the tropes you brought up. #1 strikes deep for me for personal reasons, which I've seen happen. I will always appreciate your wit, sarcasm, and sense of humour as well as your honesty.
1. Someone should have shown this to Sia. 2. Thank you! I'm especially sick of the better off dead, the predator and the Inspiration porn trope. You know me, I am autistic, depressed and got EDS(new diagnosis, yay!) But I like to live without getting told "I couldn't live the way you live, you're such an inspiration!" "Person, you either live this way, or you die. Basically telling someone it's wrong you're able to live is kinda shitty to the max."
Real life is messy, not sanitized and proper, and I don’t really get the push to avoid certain storylines because we would then also be unable to address real conflicts people face. I don’t disagree with everything in this video but it’s totally unrealistic to downplay mental illness when constructing a good villain. Sociopathy, extreme narcissism, etc are tied to mental illness which fuels people to do evil things, just as an example. Sure, not all illnesses are harmful to others, so we should all take care to not demonize anyone unnecessarily, but it has nothing to do with balancing the number of good and bad guys with mental illness. It comes down to constructing a realistic and nuanced villain. We don’t have to treat every topic with kid gloves.
A lot of those boil down to a couple really simple general rules: -Don’t make minority characters into devices that only service characters that are part of privileged groups in the real worlds. -Make minority characters actual characters and treat them the same as others
"Better off dead" is just indescribably awful. It's at it's most awful when referring to real-life neurodivergence and disability, but honestly I can't stand it even in a sci-fi/fantasy scenario. Someone gets mutated? Let's kill them off and call it a mercy! ... Like, no, I'd really prefer to be a living mutant, thanks....
As a blind person, I can safely say that the better off dead Trope is better off dead. My life is just fine even though I can’t see. I can do exactly what the rest of you can do. I can draw for God’s sake. I’m an author myself, and I like to think that I’m pretty good at it too. The worst thing is, I keep seeing the better off dead trope appearing more and more. And what’s probably even worse than that is the number of times I see a disability cure trope. I once read a story online about a blind girl whose boyfriend created eyedrops to let her see. I read it and wanted to Drop dead.
Also blind and I’ve just started to learn to draw! I actually didn’t think it was possible when I lost my sight but I discovered Procreate and it’s accessibility features a couple of weeks ago
I especially couldn't stand that whole "assault makes you stronger" thing in Game of Thrones like you mentioned. It wasn't even just that. It was like after Sansa got raped, she could do no wrong, she was always right, and everybody else was always wrong. Yeah, umm...I don't think that's how it really works! Anyways, interested if you do more of these!
Related to point 7: strong/skilled/expert women can have learned their skills from women in their lives! I've lost count of how many times I see a female character display any kind of supposedly 'masculine' ability - e.g. knowing how to throw a punch - and the explanation is "oh, my dad really wanted a son", or "I have four older brothers".
The one I wanna see is: "I have four older brothers." "Oh, they did a great job!" "No, you misunderstand me. The oldest does ballet, the one just above me was in chess club, and the middle twins were born preemie. I may have come last, but no one was going to pick on them while I was around." XD
@@hendrikscheepers4144 My personal fav (and my RL reason) is "My grandparents wanted to make sure everybody could take care of themselves and survive on their own. Everyone knows how to cook and sew, everyone knows how to shoot and take care of their car." Grandma taught the boys how to cook and sew, Grandpa taught the girls how to hunt and take care of a car. (Any fighting rhey picked up was from amongst themselves.) My uncle taught me to hunt, Grandpa and his brother taught me car maintenance, all three taught me a bit of construction and plumbing (I suck at electrical though), Grandma and dad taught me how to cook, and Grandma and mom taught me how to sew. I'm now 28, and a mother myself. Both my boys will be learning everything too. XD
"Dominant people don't need to force others"
Preach!
69 noice
Yeah, that is why in my novel there is no alphabet people or non-white people, I don't want to offend anyone so those "special" groups are just vanished. As for other sexual things she was talking about I don't have obsession about sex, so I will be fine.
About point 7: It's not just sexual assault that "makes you stronger", trauma, abuse, and mental illness are used in the same way. Usually, the badass has their personality from trauma, but this only affects them in positive ways. As a neurodivergent who's been through severe emotional trauma, it's only made me more afraid. All these stories need is one scene where the characters show weakness. Now I'm not saying all abuse survivors don't get stronger, but my gods these stories are why no one takes me seriously when I ask for help.
And point 4 reminds me of school where we watched videos of disabled kids every month so the teachers (who could no care less about their jobs) could say, "See? Others have it was worse then you! You're lucky to be here!"
It's simply dehumanizing, an abuse victim is only seen as a "warrior" instead of a human being, it paints abuse as something that has positive impact on people by making them more assertive and badass instead of showing how negatively it affects people. In a lot of stories there's no feeling of "being dirty", there's no suicidal thoughts, there's no self harming, there's no feeling like crap.
It's really negative to do these stories and ignore the amount of psychological, emotional and physical damage this does to people, abuse of any kind shouldn't be romanticized or seen as something that makes people better. It also sets a bad example for characters that go through abuse and commit the s word because if the ones that kept living are painted as strong and warriors, what does it say about those that couldn't handle it? Someone is not weak or cowardly for not being able to keep living, that is a very negative trope, very offensive to anyone that ever had suicidal thoughts.
How does this work?
"Your 'training' didn't make me stronger or braver. I was scared of everyone, and I thought I could only count on myself, but I was just a coward who was trying to avoid being hurt again. It was my friends, their courage, their insight, their will, their kindness... that was what made me strong!"
Or the flipside of this is said person who suffered brutal assault is so traumatized that they regress mentally, into a child like state or go catatonic. Not saying that this doesn't happen in real life but this is almost like fridging and inspirational porn rolled up into one. This damaged person is now reduced to a prop to fuel the MCs journey and motivations, and oh, sometimes #10 can be added if the character survives the attack and suffered so much trauma that they succumb to their injuries over a period of time/have to be put out of their misery. A trope often found in video games btw where the player character has to kill the character to progess through the game 🤢😡
@@unluckyone1655 that reminds me of a specific Skyrim quest. you have to kill Cicero the keeper of the night mother in the dark brotherhood. I never kill him because he's a very entertaining follower later on but the fact that he's wounded and that the quest wants you to kill him just pisses me off. You can't even heal him because using the magic is seen as an attack and can kill him. (I tried and idk if it was a glitch or not but he died.) if you read his journals you realize he goes insane while caring for the night mother due to his isolation. it's actually a sad story and all the dark brotherhood members treat him like crap...
Furthermore, some abusers use the idea of "it made them stronger." as a fucked up excuse to justify their abusive actions.
THANK YOU for talking about inspiration porn! There is such a huge difference between writing a thoughtful book where a character's disability is part of the plot (or mental illness) and writing a So Inspirational disabled character-- and every disabled reader knows the difference... and wants to retch when we read the latter type.
you missed #8 ; )
How is this 5 days old-
@@Moonlit-Demon I’m assuming people with paid subscriptions get early access
@@Moonlit-Demon Patreon. I pay $10/month and get early access to videos.
@@anna-katehowell9852 I don't mean to just jump in, but after seeing your initial comment I felt the same way. Do you have any author recommendations that do it right? I've only found 1. It just feels like a slap in the face when the MC or SC become superheros and save the day. Well, without a good reason that they could suddenly act all-powerful like gifted powers or cyber augments, etc.
Having been sexually assaulted, it did not make me stronger, only more afraid to get in relationships and a bit angrier. Also, I can't help think of Dirty harry in terms of "badass guys who take what they want" being considered heroic who I couldn't stand.
I'm so sorry. That completely sucks and is not fair at all. Thanks for your honesty. It's refreshing.
It's terrible and gross enough to run into for people who have been safe all their life, I can't imagine how this trope must absolutely ruin any chance of escapism you could possibly glean from media. Sexual assault sure does change people, but "omg so strog an brav" doesn't even make sense to think the result would be at all.
it gave me an irrational fear of men, it's gotten a bit better because i have a wonderful boyfriend who has helped me get through these things but i still hate seeing/being around men in public (like strangers).
same.. six years had passed since it happened but i am still not over it 😅 it didnt make me stronger. i became anxious and insecure to the point i dont believe in myself even in the smallest of things. idk how people became stronger after experiencing sexual assault but im glad that they were able to live a life without the experience affecting them anymore. i just hate it when people write about it like it's a blessing or the only appropriate catalyst that can improve their character.
It's like how some people say being bullied makes people stronger and toughens them up when it doesn't. I was bullied and it got so bad I had to be homeschooled.
One of my most hated tropes...
Jealousy is romantic.
No. No this man child who can't communicate when something makes them uncomfortable and takes it out on thier partner is NOT "romantic"
I still recall a story I worked on where everyone wanted my very dangerous hanging by a thread sanity wise character to be "jealous " of a child just because his girlfriend was taking car of it, rather than the parental/big brother role he settled on.
The cries of "but it would be so romantic!" had me physically ill..
That's how you end up with a dead baby and a body count...
I was able to make everyone fall in love with the kid so that the ridiculous cries for the jealousy trope finally stopped but dear lord it was annoying!!!
That is so weird... you would think it would be the other way around. Someone being kind to children makes me go all gooey inside, but someone being jealous of a child just makes them seem incredibly selfish and immature. What's gonna happen if the jealous love interest marries? Is he gonna be jealous if his wife gives attention to his own child?
@@Newfiecat exsactly! Just.. so so much wrong with that whole thing and I just wanted a healthy romance with found family.
Yeah jealousy is def a romanticized thing, though mostly in fiction, those types of people usually hate jealous people/lovers irl.
It’s not always bad if it’s written well though, I like this one BL anime that really subverts the bad BL tropes, it’s a good and healthy relationship, it’s called Sasaki to Miyano it’s very adorable, I’d recommend. The dub is actually quite good sasaki voice acting is amazing particularly, who’s the jealous one btw.
"That's how you end up with a dead baby and a body count... "
The first thing my twisted mind thought was "Oh, that would have been interesting to go through with it just to give some people a reality check". Of course, this was probably not the story you were going for, but sometimes, what people need is a cautionary tale, and this could have been a good opportunity.
But it's also admirable that you knew better and stuck with your idea and it's nice that they ended up loving it.
@@Mercure250 it was tempting, but I was writing a romance found family story not a horror
I think an intelligent, sane villain, that has a motive everyone can understand, perhaps even agree with, makes for a much more interesting story. Saving the world from climate change and overpopulation can usually be agreed upon to be a good thing, while doing so by spreading an antibiotic-resistant plague with 90% mortality rate is generally considered a suboptimal solution.
Good guys going a few steps too far are the best villains!
Overpopulation stuff is mostly a myth and is also considered to be eco fascist the problem isn’t overpopulation it’s over consumption :/ the world can support billions not billionaires
I mean if you ignore the toxicity aspect explaining everything with "he's just crazy" is a massive copout to me.
We might come up with realism problem, tho, since neither is a thing that is happening.
You're describing Rainbow Six, right? It's my hands-down favorite Tom Clancy, and the villains really made it for me.
The most annoying thing about the “sexual assault made me stronger” is that it perpetuates this strange idea that people wouldn’t leap at the chance to erase the traumatic thing that happened to them. Yes, she is a strong person now, but do you not think she would take away that scar if she could?
‘The only character that is black dies first’
It’s okay, Jenna. You can say horror movie writers.
EDIT: It was a joke. I know it’s a dead trope now.
I genuinely can't think of any horror movie where that happens. Then again, maybe I just don't know many horror movies.
@@bjp4869 I don’t watch very many horror movies, but the ones that I have, I noticed that the only black character (and there often is only one) is the first to die, although I didn’t care enough for any of those movies to remember their names as examples
That's actually not very common. The actual trope is the black guy always dies (at some point). And it actually became a recognized trope because of successful and widely viewed films where black men had a prominent role: Night of the Living Dead (1968), Alien (1979), JC's The Thing (1982), etc. So, Jenna is wrong in that it is not normally associated with a token character. Indeed, in the above listed films...they had to die. They wouldn't be horrific otherwise.
@@alexandernorman5337 I think it’s less on Jenna specifically and more that many fell for the misunderstanding if you’re right. That’s an infamous subject after all.
My trick is that the “races” in my stories are their own defined fictional cultures, so the reader can’t tell who the black people are. Because there are no black people, or white people, or Slavs, or whatever. We’ve got bird people with basis in Slavic cultures, we’ve got fox people with basis in various indigenous cultures, lizard people who are far more Western European and American, and desert wolf people who get most of their stuff from the general Asia, Africa, and more Slav stuff.
The "Empowered because of past Sexual Assault" trope is so problematic, and seems to be thrown in merely for shock value. A woman can be strong without a dark backstory involving sexual violence.
I'm especially prone to giving my characters dark backstories (it's how I process certain things) but sexual assault has never been involved in those dark pasts bc frankly it doesn't need to be there.
tl;dr if you wanna give a character a dark backstory, there are options other than r@pe
Or just "going through trauma/very bad thing makes you stronger" in general is problematic.
And the fact this trope is pretty much just used on female characters is sad. You can have a badass female character without her being sexually assaulted, please writers start doing some new sh-t, we're tired of this "empowerment" post sexual assault.
I don't think traumatic events work that well for empowering a character as singular events. It's usually better to have a series of events or, which is easier in a backstory, a few snapshots of the character's dark history. A character who's constantly struggling and finally has enough and grows stronger is more interesting to me than someone who doesn't struggle, has a single traumatic event, and then instantly turns around to become stronger.
I have a character who's very strong and sexually assaulted. But in that order. She is very strong before it happens, and it's not something she considers a major event in her life. Which is the point, as it serves to contrast another character who does struggle, and isn't particularly strong either before or after. So just having sexual assault in the background isn't enough to make it a bad idea, but to have it as the actual reason for the empowerment is what turns it sour for me.
@@AnotherDuck This. The story I'm working on, the main character has some issues. Problems trusting, PTSD, Depression, etc. These stem from being abused as a child, culminating in almost dying and being abandoned in the woods, and then having to survive from age 10 to 16 on her own. Yeah, singular traumatic events are horrific, and leave their mark. But to slap your character with one, and then they're magically over it in a month and 'Oh, look at how much stronger and better I am for it'... *strangles the air* These things take time. I speak from experience. Been struggling with Depression and PTSD since I was 12. I'm now 28. I'm still effected by what I went through. Will be for many years to come. Let's start writing realistic recoveries, shall we?
Oh, my gods, THANK YOU for bringing up the "inspiration porn" and "better off dead" things. Ableist tropes are rarely discussed and they should be mentioned more often.
I noticed you say "Oh my gods" Like I do. Does that mean what I think it means? :D
@@Moonlit-Demon Well, if you're thinking it means I'm Pagan, than yes. I'm Wiccan. Blessed be!
Yep, or the cringe award winning two-fer, the 'better off dead' who becomes inspiration porn by narrowly managing to not end their own 'suffering' by being miraculously 'saved/cured' by the love interest or their giant cheque book. 🤬🤬
"It's like turning dysentery into a weight loss solution"
Please don't give them ideas, Jenna.
To tie into the "dubious consent" topic, I had to stop supporting an author a few years ago. She wrote contemporary romance, and while all her books had tons of cliches I didn't mind because they were still fun. Until I got to the final book in her companion series.
The main "antagonist" of the series (one of those mean girl types who had a kind of a "rough" life because her rich parents were mostly MIA so she took it out on everybody around her) was given her own book. And I thought it was going to be a book about self-growth and all that, but no. She was given a book where a guy she had feelings for tells her he doesn't want her, but later sneaks into her house while she's asleep to have sex with her, without her knowledge (she thinks she's dreaming) and ends up pregnant... and she finds out that he was doing this but thinks it was some massive show of how much he loves her and she marries him... NOPE. In the bin with that book and that author.
Is this Nan’s book? Rush’s sister? I forgot the name of the series but I remember Rush and Blaire from Abb/y Glines’s book series!
That's messed up
@@Aryaissuccessful yeah. Horrible book.
This is what scientists call a "gigantic YIKES"
@@Marie45610 Taken off my TBR, thank you!
Thankyou for bringing up toxic tropes that are used against disabled people. Ableism is a serious issue that not many people seem to be aware of
or just dont be a snowflake? Not everything is a targeted message, not everything is about you, not everything has to something with the writers personal opinions. Learn that
@@Rambrus0 I pretty sure out of all people, disabled people are probably the most aware that not everything is for them, mate
One problematic trope I find is "Redemption Equals Death". It's whenever someone who's been morally wrong redeems themselves, and then shortly after, or in the act of redemption, dies. I think that sends the message that the cost of redemption isn't worth it, and discourages seeking forgiveness. It also completely eliminates a potentially very interesting character arc that's already half written. It might not be as bad as some other tropes, but it's probably the trope I like the least.
On the "Fridging Women" trope, the one part I disagree about is that it makes women disposable. That's something far more prevalent for men. If it's typical for women to die to create some emotion in a male character, men in fiction much more often die without any kind of afterthought or concern. They're just men, so who cares?
Ughhhhh I hate "redemption equals death" too. Always seems cheap to me, like I'm only getting a crumb of a redemption arc.
If I recall correctly, Hayao Miyazako also dislikes the trope Redemption Equals Death. He probably doesn't think very highly of the Friding Women trope either since he's a very much a supporter of having a strong female protagonist in the movies.
If I might speak in defense of "redemption equals death", the way you describe it is "I think that sends the message that the cost of redemption isn't worth it." I beg to differ. The message of this trope is that redemption is worth EVERYTHING. If you remember the Braveheart speech from William Wallace when he talks about fleeing warriors one day being old men lying in their beds dreaming of one chance to trade every day from their fleeing to now for one more opportunity to do the right thing. That's what the R.E.D. trope is about. It's that redemption being bigger than your own life and making a show of it.
It's ok if you don't especially like the trope, but I thought I just had to give it some context.
a great recent example of this is *Spoiler Alert* Wanda Maximoff aka The Scarlet Witch's sacrifice at the end of Multiverse of Madness...
@@jtib5968 That's a fair point, however it's not how I see it used most of the time. That's an active choice by the characters to sacrifice themselves, rather than something imposed on them by the author. A lot of the time I just see it as a cop-out to not have to deal with the actual redemption part.
And in the case when it's actually harder for the characters to live with the guilt than to die and escape it it also cheapens it since it doesn't give much back than what they could do working for it for a long time.
Seeing a hero with a mental illness is actually an interesting concept. In my group's D&D campaign we have a hero in our party with DID (dissociative identity disorder or multiple personalities). My friend plays this character really well and it is fun to see the types of situations he gets himself into. If anything he is a great character cause despite being a vampire with DID who is also related to the BBEG, this character is also a prince and a warrior. His story centers around proving to people he isn't a monster, in more ways than one, and growing into the leader he was meant to be.
Well Rick Riordan's demigods are almost all dyslexic and have ADHD like his son.
Idk if this would work as a good subversion to the #7, but the fem fatale claims the assault made her stronger, but in reality that’s just the front she puts up to get through the day. Deep in the story, When asks if she’s really okay, her walls finally come down and she admits that she’s still not over it, the memory still torments her in her sleep, and that she wishes she could be the woman she was before but really all she can do is keep moving forward. The only reason she keeps up such a strong front us because she knows she could never live with herself if she let another woman go through what she did. Her resolution is finally being able to seek therapy and get the help she needs.
This is the first video that made me cry. I have MS and my legs do not work. I wish more people, not just authors, understood this. Thank you. 💜
Arousal is NOT consent. 100% agree!!
So many books like to make the arousal of a character the unlimited green light for the other character to do what they want and make the other’s sometimes opposing or reluctant feelings of the first character somehow not important or no longer relevant. A problem I have with liking the enemies to lovers and bully type romance tropes often.
Like so what the character is hot? If they are abusive or a major a-hole or mean (or all of the above) WHY does your physical reaction to their hotness make those things irrelevant?
We are more than our bodies physical reactions to something/someone physically attractive. I can use my judgement and not want to mess around with someone who is horrible acting even if they are physically beautiful/handsome.
THIS!!!
And the annoying thing is that the author will then try to tell us "he's not that bad" by making him save her all in a pathetic attempt to create 'a morally grey character' (that's my problem with morally grey characters. It's usually just authors getting us to empathize with assholes).
Then the woman is then obligated to fall for the bastard just because he saved her and it's gross asf.
@@evangelinemmayie6116 💯
I know of a certain story where people joke about the female character enjoying being r***d even though she was so traumatized that she mentally regressed to having the mindset of a toddler to escape the reality of what happened.
This exaclty. I hate it when a male character literally gets away with SA because he's "hot" so the female character must be into him. If you wouldn't accept a behaviout from an ugly guy, don't accept it from a supposedly attactive one. Eugh.
This list MUST have the whole "female character having to fix a trash boy" trope, so disrespectful and harmful, it paints the idea that women must be ride or die and do everything for a piece of sh-t man. Edit: Just finished the video, sadly not on this list, but it's a solid list, agree on all 10 examples.
Basically the first 5 tropes are offensive because they're dehumanizing and perfectly display the author's lack of common sense and, in some cases, prejudice. Characters should be treated equally, you can't be like "oh here's your token only minority character" and then there's just there to fill a quote, common do better than that. The fridging a character is also lazy writing, there are other ways to motivate your hero or set them on a journey, the fact this trope is mostly applied on female characters just adds insult to injury.
The trans sex worker trope is more or less offensive because it paints a monolith, we know most trans women are in prostituition, we get it, they don't have the same opportunities, but this is not an excuse to only have them in this light.
do you want to read fairy tale or a dark fantasy? In darker fantasy there is no moral message. Even if something like that happens, it also can show the readers how bad that thing is. Like slavery is Harry Potter. It indirectly shows how sad the life of slaves is. It doesnt encourages anyone
@@Rambrus0 There's no such thing as a book without a moral message. It can be a pessimistic or outright evil message, but it's still a moral message.
@@taylor_green_9 you cant have conflict without something bad to happen... Jesus christ
@@Rambrus0 Of course. But what does your book say about those bad things happening? That the victims deserved it? That the bad things are inevitable and we should just give up? Or that we can and must fight back and work to make things right and make the world a better place?
@@taylor_green_9 what example do you have in mind?
How was this posted just over a minute ago, and there are 5 day old comments 🤣🤣🤣
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Time travel
Time travel 😈
Time is an illusion. Lunch time doubly so.
@@saiuchiha3150 Ohhhh sorry, I'm an idiot 😆
Re: #7, one of my WIPs features a character who’s survived a lot of trauma, and is a badass. At some point in the story, someone says something about her trauma making her stronger, and her response is to tell them that what happened to her didn’t make her stronger, she made herself stronger with the help of her loved ones and a lot of therapy. She also calls this person out for indirectly giving her abusers the credit for her achievements.
And of course, there are plenty of other badass characters who haven’t suffered horrific trauma.
Number 5. The only instance I have read in fiction that, in my opinion, does disabled characters correctly is from author K.C. Alexander. It was the SINless series, Necrotech and Nanoshock. It does involve cyberpunk fantasy, so you have to take that into account about the body augmentation and adjustment, but it is not the "Disabled person acts like a superhero saves the day" trope. It talked about the subtleties, the phantom pain, flashbacks, loss of control and fear, the self-meding.
I've read many other books that the MC or their sidekick is disabled and can do EVERYTHING better than those around them. Being disabled myself, it feels like an absolute slap in the face. The last one is where a teen is wheelchair-bound, thrown into a "monster zone" by their guardian from the orphanage, and he can suddenly walk and sling magic while under attack from I think some minotaur.
I'd be interested if anyone else has any suggestions.
One of my favorite books is all the light we cannot see by Anthony doerr. Its a World War Two historical fiction. One of the two main characters is a blind girl. As a blind person myself I think the author was able to walk a fine line between not having the character be completely helpless, while also having her struggle with her blindness. And the way she navigates the world with her disability is completely realistic. She uses a white cane, she reads braille, and her blindness is not a huge part of her character without being completely forgotten either
My least favorite trope is definitely "abusive behavior from a partner painted as romantic". Like Edward from Twilight, who was stalking Bella, sneaking into her room in the middle of the night, watching her sleep, smelling her all the time, getting upset that he can't read her thoughts... It's fucked up, and the story still makes him out to be the man you should want to spend eternity with.
Not to mention he's centuries old and went after a highschooler...
Sansa went through a lot, sexual assault, yes, but also Joffery's mental abuse, betrayal, and losing her family and home. I think overcoming everything that had already happened to her previously is what made her strong enough to survive Ramsey.
The fact she overcame the earlier events proves she was strong already.
Another trope I see sometimes in books is the “illogical science” trope. This is where a character in a story either dies or is saved from dying based upon an event which has no basis in fact or in true science. That might work in a fantasy the novel, but in a reality based novel? Hmmmm.
Perhaps the writer was trying to promote a specific theory he or she truly believes in, but it still doesn’t make it logical. Two examples of this I have seen in books is - one book I read in which the main character’s wife dies in a minor fender bender where she suffocated from the airbag continuing to inflate. I don’t know if this has ever happened in real life, but speaking as someone who has been in a car accident in which the airbags deployed they did not continue to deploy but actually deflated after only a few seconds.
The second example is a story I read in which a woman going through chemo for cancer meets and falls in love with a baseball player and by the end her cancer is cured due to, as someone in the story said, “love cured her cancer.”
Um, I know a lot of people, including my own mom, who have died of cancer despite many people showing love to them. Anyway, that’s my take.
I agree with most of this. But one fact is actually that happiness makes us more resilient (not invincible though). For example, if you get a wound after having fought or argued with someone it'll heal slower than if you got the cut shortly after laughing or having fun. Obviously, love can't cure cancer, but being happy can make your body fight it better (just to be clear, it doesn't equal winning every time). Just like how positive people often regain health faster and better than negative people. Our bodies are full of chemistry, and some things do give positive effects, while others give bad ones. I knew two people whose doctors told them they'd live a certain amount of time. Both of them lived many years longer, and they were both very positive and did things they enjoyed to the extent they could and stuck around people they liked. In the end, yeah, they both died. But they got many years more than people thought.
Airbags can not suffocate you. That's just not possible by the way they're designed. They inflate to their max size and then they start to deflate _before_ your face hits the airbag cushion. If it didn't deflate before your nose made contact, it wouldn't be a soft pillow reducing damage to your spine, but like being hit in the face with a basketball at a speed of ~200km/h. It would shatter your nose and loosen some teeth.
That means that the chemical reaction blowing up the airbag is calculated so that the ingredients will have reacted after a certain amount of time. So it is literally impossible to die from being suffocated by an airbag.
But yeah, I don't think that that's a specific trope, it's just that the author didn't care enough to look up how things actually work and produced a gaping plot hole.
That reminds me of Gravity (spoiler ahead). Blatant violation of Newton's laws of motion (which are, like, the most basic and fundamental laws in physics, or at least classical physics) which sealed the fate of the main male character. My suspension of disbelief was so obliterated during that scene, I stopped caring about the movie altogether. I was watching it with my parents, and had to explain the physics behind why I was disappointed lol (fortunately, it was basic physics, thus simple to explain)
Airbags can totally kill people, especially those of shorter stature (which is part of the reason kids are supposed to be in car seats basically until they can get their own licenses now). I’m 5’2 and if I were to get into an accident it’s extremely likely that the airbag would break my arms and face because of how I have to have my seat arranged to be able to drive.
Now by suffocation? I don’t think that’s likely. I can think of a few situations (car crumples around you, you’re paralyzed by impact, airbag deflates but can’t pull away from your face for reasons, you suffocate that way)
on 10 I agree completely in the last 15 years of my Mom's life she could barely do anything but watch tv in her bed but every day after work I came in and did exactly that till it was time to go to sleep she said life was still worth living because being dead meant there was no hope for improvement maybe if we waited long enough we'd find a cure or a miracle would happen also nothing's more boring than a corpse if you're still breathing there's hope
In general, writing trauma as something that "makes you stronger" is so overrated. Trauma doesn't make you stronger. Trauma makes you traumatised. If anything can make you stronger, it's the healing which doesn't come in the package.
So 4 of them can be combined into "don't have marginalized characters just to kill them".
One bad trope I hope gets addressed is "religion is the only path to morality". I'm tired of seeing non-religious characters being portrayed as evil or immoral. It overlooks how religion and morality are two different things and how religion leads people do do evil things.
that is so true, athiests and agnostics are normal people (with some exceptions of course)
I have had religious relatives literally say to me "you have no morals" because I'm not religious. But honestly, if the only thing deterring someone from killing people or stealing or whatever is that they would be disobeying God's rules, maybe it's THEIR morals I should be worrying about...?
Ah, thing is religious people are portrayed as evil all the time in media, have been for a while now.
Just to add a bit to the conversation. When done correctly, dubcon can be a nice addition. All survivors heal differently. Some of us enjoy reading about those things. It gives us back our power. Especially if we watch the MC overcome the same things we did. Also a survivor's preferences after assault can be to prefer things like dubcon because they have the power. Everyone heals differently and it is all valid
Can you please do a sequel? i'm curious about the rest of the 25
Let me sum it up:
Nobody except a straight white man can be killed or have any character flaws.
@@harpo345 Ha! Yup
1. 3:14 Bury your gays
2. 4:38 Dubious consent
3. 5:33 The token black character / The black character dies first
4. 6:45 Fridging a woman
5. 7:48 Inspiration porn
6. 8:41 The dead trans character
7. 9:47 "Sexual assault made me stronger"
8. 10:58 Villainizing mental illness
9. 12:13 "He takes what he wants"
10. 13:21 Better off dead
THANK YOU FOR TALKING ABOUT INSPO PORN!! (also I'm also ND and I've been watching your videos for 4 years and have always vibed with you, its always so cool when someone you love watching and relate to decides to disclose ! Love your work xx
I think it’s problematic when writers get on soap boxes and tell other writers what they are allowed/not allowed to write.
A trope I absolutely hate, yes hate, and MANY people in m/m romance community gush over and love, is the gay for you trope. They seem to find it sweet. "Aww, they got together despite their sexuality." They have sex for the first time with no prep, no knowledge, and even perform anal sex with little prep. That's not how that works. What makes this problematic though is that it insinuates that you can find someone of the same sex, even if you're not gay. This is something that was drilled into me when I first came out, "You just need to find the right woman," and so this trope does that in reverse, "You're not straight, you just need to find the right man/woman." This trope also erases bi/pan/demi/etc. people. EVEN if it's set in a time when pan/demi/etc. didn't have a voice for who they were, bi has been around long enough that they can default to it. Bi-awakening. Or, so some kind of indication that this person had a crush or sexual interest in another person of the same sex prior to this meeting. Not some love at first sight suddenly I want to be with this person of the same sex despite having never shown interest before and I'm still straight except this one person. It happens way more often in m/m romance. I wonder what would happen if they tried to write a straight for you romance. Wonder if it's out there.
Love me some spicy problematic tropes that also ARE SO PREVALENT IN FICTION FOR NO REASON. Like authors stop it
Fridging a Woman: This also falls into misunderstanding how painful losing a loved one can really be and, in a bit of a twisted sense of fairness, also perpetuates a harmful stereotype about men. There's a good chance that if you lost your spouse to a painful death, you'd just shut down. The stereotype being that men cannot/should not feel depression, helplessness, or weakness.
Perfect timing, Jenna. I’ve had a horrible day, and you know damn well how to make me smile and laugh.
Also, one of my most hated tropes is, while I love Jekyll and Hyde, some brainless idiots think it’s representation for DID (news flash: IT’S NOT!) and use it for a VERY harmful stereotype! I do everything I can to avoid this, especially for my Jekyll and Hyde inspired story, which is why I’m a little bit informed about DID, despite not having it.
i despise misrepresentation of did and it’s so common. nice to see someone who agrees :)
@caitlyncarvalho7637 It’s supposed to be about repression, not DID. Jekyll uses Hyde as a mask so he can indulge in things that would damage his reputation as a scientist. It’s a lot more layered and complex than I can explain, there a few videos that explain it better than I can.
Re: Mentally ill villains, it's important for people to remember that mental illness and neurodivergence aren't a monolith. Second, it's a lazy cop-out to just have your villain be generically and stereotypically CUH-RAY-ZAY. It's fine to write a villain who is callous, paranoid, megalomaniacal, self-obsessed, sadistic, and/or plagued by delusions or hallucinations, but it pays to put some thought and research into your creation and depiction of these characters so they don't come across as insulting, tropey, or implausible to your audience.
Some mental illnesses do cause people to act crazy, there's no lie there. I really don't believe those people have to be coddled to the point where no writer is allowed to portray them in their troubled state.
@@ranip7644 , agreed! For example, I think it's more than realistic and reasonable to have your villain be a psychopath, a narcissist, or a "Dark Triad" type, or someone who is being driven by their profound trauma.
Me, I'm annoyed by lazy, stereotypical/tropey (and often inaccurate) portrayals of schizophrenia/psychosis, autism, BPD, and OCD especially.
Ngl these are all very useful to keep in mind. Though I’ll also add a hidden #11 trope to avoid just cause :)
SA on men pulled for laughs. Essentially take non consensual acts performed on your female characters up to and including r**e, but instead have the victim be a man (and in many cases, the perp is usually a woman in this trope) and play it off as comedic or otherwise not take it seriously.
It sends a pretty bad message. Implying that men can’t be r**ed, and if the writer doesn’t take it seriously, chances are the readers/ audience won’t take it seriously either.
Everyone can commit or be a victim of SA and everyone deserves to be heard and taken seriously, and I feel this should be reflected in fiction, regardless of gender.
Apologies for the rant but I felt it was worth adding.
Concerning the "fridging a woman" trope, I would also like to add that having a wife, girlfriend, etc. with a chronic illness or the like being used to fuel the MC and having that be their only character development is just as bad. Even if the illness or disability or whatever it is is portrayed accurately, if their only purpose in the story is to fuel a man they still don't count as a real character. I can't tell you how many times I have seen things like "I don't want to kill people, but I if I don't, Debbie will die" kind of things.
The "better off dead" trope immediately made me think of Me Before You.
The first thing I thought of is when a religious person says "They are in a better place. "
@@martinwilmoth6268that's not what religious people mean by that at all lol
That may not be what religious people MEAN when they say that, but when they say it to a non-religious person, it is EXACTLY what they are saying...
@@martinwilmoth6268 um no it's not. It's just a saying to help people cope with death. It lets them know that the dead person is doing well after death
Meaning they are better off now than when they were alive... in 'a better place'.. aka Better Off Dead.. because you know Jesus and all that...
Sexuality and skin colour are not character traits! They do not make up an entire human being!
It should be mentioned that not every time a female character in a relationship is killed it's Fridging. Like, it really depends on specific circumstances.
If you build up the female character at all then it is not fridging. Fridging is when you use the token character *only* to provide a motivation to a different character. Fridging isn't that common outside of bad writing.
I feel like a good rule of thumb is when it's framed that the real tragedy is how it affects the mc rather than the tragedy being the actual death, then that is fridging. Though that can be tricky because sometimes from a utilitarian point of view, some characters primary purpose in a story is to die to drive the plot. But if it feels like that to the reader, it's bad writing. Also when it comes to killing female characters, it has the extra baggage of the way they are killed can reinforce bad stereotypes. Like if a female character dies and it's framed as extra super duper tragic because she was so helpless and fragile and died because there was no one there to protect her... then that is already pretty bad and stereotypical, and it becomes one of the worse forms of fridging if her death was also just to upset/motive a male character.
Tbh i have no issue with killing gay characters. You don't need to kill off a straight character to make it not homophobic. Just make sure that their death isn't because they were gay.
Unless that's the point of the story, like writing a gay character in 1940's germany, where lgbt people were specifically targeted.
But just having a character who happens to be gay die isn't exactly bad.
@thegaytay what?
@tamiasmith2097 Jojo rabbit did this very well, captain K was a closeted gay nazi officer who was ultimately killed by the soviets in the end, they didn't even know he was gay, they just shot him because he was captured in nazi uniform, despite him secretly being against the nazi party in the end.
Thank you for talking about how sexual assault is handled so so so very poorly. Yet, I feel like it's in everything nowadays. It's also heavily defended, even when it's depicted in vile full screen long 3-5 minute scenes. (Or in "I Spit on Your Grave's" case, a full 20-minute graphic scene.)
There have been studies that show how not only does this actually cause illness in past survivors, but also returns to self harm or attempted s*icide. (I myself am guilty of the latter. I was having a totally normal, fine day when a scene of Game of Thrones sent me into an event where the cops got involved... This stuff is no joke)
One thing I think is particularly odd is... if you're gonna show a long graphic scene to "emphasize the victim's suffering" then why is there never any blood? People bleed from both anal and vaginal r@pe yet no blood? Why miss out on an opportunity to make the scene even worse if you're already depicting it in full with that very goal? It's almost like the creators didn't do their research and just wanted to add r@pe for some extra spice but don't want to be called out on it.
It's also disgusting how the actors are treated during those scenes, too. Funny how a contract can loop an unaware actor into being assaulted.
I also wanna add how toxic the "dis trauma made me stronker" . No. You and your support network made you stronger not the SA.
@@saladcaesar7716 Yes! That too! I have seen and heard that soo much, both in fiction and reality, and it's just flat toxic.
I put blood in mine.
Felt quite sick after writing it. Still thought it had to be done that way, i just can't sanitize violence. I hope my subtext warning is enough, i do not wish to harm anyone
SA is in everything because it’s so common in real life. Pretending it’s not pervasive and literally everywhere won’t help either.
Must be difficult to write an engaging story when you surround yourself with a minefield the size of this one!
Thanks for the interesting insight into why Hollywood is about to go bankrupt.
Doesn’t traumatic backstory used to show either strength, overcoming it or certain behavioral trates. For example Kakashi his father killer himself when he was 9, his best friend died protecting him, his love interest was killed by his hands, and his father figure sacrificed himself for his village. However even with all that he still smiles, it drives him to be stronger and it explains why he acts the way he does.
I think 90% of all the common relationship tropes belong on this list: Fetishized domestic violence from authors who don't know the difference between BDSM and abuse, cheating being ok, if the protagonist does it, on-off-relationships, sex between students and teachers or employees and bosses, often als presented as some sort of weird fetish. Not to forget the "you have to try harder" trope for a lack of a better name, where a boy is ignored or ridiculed by a girl first, but continues to do anything to impress her and in the end they become a couple. It doesn't work that way and sends a wrong message, that is harmful to anyone involved in a similar situation in real life.
She probably wrote those in the original list, since she talks about those tropes often, but that there were ones she talks less about and those were prioritised.
Great video
One of the things to take away from this video is that forced diversity is bullshit. We should stop nagging authors to include every minority group in their stories cos not everyone can execute it well. A story (particularly high fantasy) must not include everyone race, sexuality, disability etc. Authors should be able to write what they're comfortable writing about instead of shoe-horning minorities just to be 'inclusive'.
I'm a black woman but I don't need to see people like me in a novel or movie for me to enjoy it or feel good about myself. I'd rather read an all-white novel that is incredibly entertaining and gripping than read a novel with token black characters that are treated like crap.
Everyone should write freely. If as a reader you want 'representation' petition writers that have things in common with you rather than the ones that can't possibly relate so they won't go writing rubbish. And Authors please don't force fake diversity into your novels just because that stuff sells. Be true to yourself while writing.
PREACH
Well said
YES! THIS! (I'm also a black woman.)
I'm writing a fantasy series where only two humans are part of the protagonist's traveling party which consists of six to seven characters(one of them doesn't travel with the party all the time). The protagonist herself is not human but her love interest is.
I consider that diversity especially considering that in my fantasy world, humans were never actually supposed to exist along with the protagonist's race(or species but that sounds too sci-fi for this particular setting).
I also have a good mix of male and female characters in the party. The females actually out number the males but I made sure they are actual characters instead of just strong independent woman type stuff.
I hear you. Glad to see people understand it. Take care.
If people can't discern real from fiction, then they have a lot of underlying issues that shouldn't be blamed on the work of fiction. People can watch "Joker" and not go crazy
The gay or black guy in horror stories always be dying first. I honestly don't know how it even became a trope.
One trope I hate is the Cartwright curse, it's when you kill off or otherwise remove the main characters or a side characters love interest for a variety of reasons. I hate this trope, its annoying when they break up off screen but when they kill their love interests off everytime. It just always comes off as dumb and needless.
In case anyone didn't know and I honestly expected her to add it in, Fridging got it's name from the Kyle Rayner Green Lantern story where he discovered his dead girlfriend inside his refrigerator. It was a really screwed up story.
I really doubt Jenna even knows who Kyle Rayner is 😂 Sure she probably knows who Green Lantern is but not Kyle. That story came out in the 90s and I think it became controversial much later.
@@whosaidthat84 I had heard from somewhere that the term came from that story. I could be wrong tho. It's been years since then. I kinda wiki binged in the late 00s to catch up with modern comics at the time.
@@Zarreth I think you're right that it came from that story. I believe the character who killed her was named Major Force. From my memory, I don't quite recall that moment being so controversial, but then again I was just a kid back then.
@@whosaidthat84 yeah it was major force. It's pretty much what the story is known for bc of the shock value. They made Kyle alot more grounded like a lot of the heroes in the late 90s after image comics took off so they tried to do violent spectacles instead of grandiose stories. This was one of the outcomes that went too far.
@@Zarreth ah the overly edgy comics of the 90s. So extreme and radical 😂
I feel like there’s one stereotypes that I find pretty toxic tho . But it’s not here yet. Maybe bc it’s incredibly common
But I think a hero born powerful and a villian who practiced to be powerful is pretty toxic. It tells people who’s seen as being born or starting “worse” than someone else like being less intelligent and being weaker to not try.
Also thank you so much for talking about the stuff with neurodivergent character since I’m also neurodivergent like you and I’m also sick of it
That sounds like a setup for role subversion. Ie: the hero becomes a spoiled brat who has everything handed to them and the villain grows and changes to become a better person as a result of their hard work.
While there is some good points here, you have a condescending air about you that im not a fan of.
"This should be easy." "If you cant, then dont." "This will cause real harm".
Nah nah.
The "SA makes you stronger" trope makes me think of a character I'm writing into a series, if I ever finish it.
Content warning for below, I describe part of the story im working on vaguely and it references a lot of traumatic stuff that happened to a fictional character while they were a child.
At the point in the story its brought up what happened in his past. It isn't used to make him look stronger. It is however used in a way to explain some of his incongruent behaviors and attitudes.
Without spoiling it, his childhood had a lot of issues around parental neglect, parental drug abuse, death in the family, and as mentioned above give the topic SA and R. and as a young adult he isn't "stronger due to his trauma" he instead has a tone of hang ups, insecurities, and bad coping mechanism to go along with his frequent nightmares and strong aversion to intimacy or trusting people in general.
He does slowly recover throught the story as a supportive and healthy network of friends is formed as well as having a good adoptive parental figure who took him in after.... stuff happened to what was left of his bio family.
Not sure how the character will turn out in the end (if they'll turn out at all), but at least it seems you got the basics right - trauma messes with people a lot, not makes them stronger; "trauma" is Greek for wound, for goodness sake, how wounds make people stronger?!
The part about recovery through supportive environment is also really important. When a character grows stronger after trauma, I'm fairly certain it's never because of trauma itself, but because of the help and support that counteracts it.
I feel one thing that gets overlooked is how events after trauma can soften or exacerbate adverse effects. Even if two people experienced the same traumatic event in a very similar way, the long-term effects might still differ wildly depending on whether they received adequate support afterwards, or they were subjected to doubts, ridicule and other forms of secondary victimisation.
@@AlphishCreature assuming I finish the story at some point. He should turn out well enough. Not 100%, but able to cope in a healthier way on the things that don't get or can't be resolved cleanly and compleatly. The Joy's of trauma sticking with you well after one has "recovered". Might no longer be a gapping wound but it's still gonna leave a scar
How about making the villain an entitled spoiled brat?
That makes me think of high school movies where that's usually the case. I honestly think just about every villain type should be allowed (just dont make the villain the ONLY character with a certain mental illness, disability or deformity). People in real life vary a lot in personality, opinions, outlook on life and with what reason they may do some evil action, the type of evil action as well. Some may genuinely think they do the right thing, some want revenge (possibly with valid reason), others may be greedy for money, or in some cases genuinely desperate for money, and some are insane which could lead them to hurt others as well (that's far from saying ALL insane or mentally ill people turn evil or dangerous)
I personally don't like 9. I won't read or write it, but I know a lot of people who enjoy that kind of romance and they are not idealizing those stories. There is this perception about women and romance, that we're too stupid to know the difference between fantasy and reality. I don't know a single woman who reads those books who thinks that way (I'm a romance author of 17 published books with a lot of author friends). In fact, several of my most kick ass friends, love those kind of books, but, having been confronted with this kind of judgement over and over, will loudly tell people they would kick a guy's a** if he tried that with them.
I have one friend in particular who put it something like this, I'm taking huge liberties in paraphrasing because It's been a while since I saw this comment. 'Dark romance books provide a safe space to explore darker fantasies. It doesn't mean the women writing or reading them want a man like this, or would even tolerate them.'
My friend doesn't tolerate them, but loves these books. She's a very savvy woman in this area, a survivor of abuse and, honestly, if you were in a relationship with an 'alphahole' (a term she introduced me to) like this, you would want her in your life and on your side.
I find these books enraging, but I will absolutely defend an author's right to write them and a readers right to read them. We need to stop treating other women like moronic idiots who need to be coddled. This in itself is a problematic and very real world way men infantalise women and justify 'stewardship' over us.
Yes, this! I write dark erotica because the dark romances tend to make me angry, but I'm deep in the dark romance community. It took me years and years to get over the guilt of liking and wanting to write this stuff because of the idea that writing/having dark fantasies = promoting sexual assault in real life.
I've also encountered lots of sexual assault survivors who enjoy dubcon and noncon, so I'm not a fan of blanket statements about what survivors want and don't want in their fiction.
@@Salukiprincess This was something I wanted to say, but wasn't sure about approaching it. I have experienced SA and while I don't like dark romance, it's not in the least triggering for me. The men in these stories make me angry and I don't get it myself (even thought I do occasionally have dark fantasies, I even get pissed at the guys in them and end up dismissing them because I get so enraged it kills the whole thing! 🤣 I'm just NOT the target audience) but I do know several survivors of SA and DA who read them for cathartic effect but are very clear that they will never allow another guy who raises flags in their life again.
I'll never forget the woman in one facebook group who commented on a post about a mmc in a DR, she wrote something like, 'would totally break this guy's nose irl if he tried this s**t on me, but in these books I can't get enough!' 🤣🤣🤣
That's the thing about the 'target audience'. It's like when I get a bad review. I know some authors who have full on meltdowns, but my attitude is 1. the reviews aren't for me, they're for the readers, and 2. They not one of my readers. It's that simple. I'm not a DR author. A lot of people won't like my books because of the niche I write in. If it's not your thing, move on. 🤷♀️
@@lucypeace6132 Yes! I've come across tons of similar comments from DR readers. I think the target audience is a lot more self-aware than people give them credit for.
And yeah, I really do wish people would focus more on helping readers find/avoid certain books and less on trying to ban or shame people out of writing "morally bad" books.
I'm not sure if this is more of a concern for children, but I strictly write for adults, and have never encountered one of these dubcon/noncon books that was aimed at anyone under 18. I dunno what the YA landscape looks like, though.
Thank you. This is an excellent list and desperately needed to be said.
"Write whatever you want, writing is creativity!"
"Wait, no! Don't write that!"
There’s nothing wrong with having a man be motivated by losing the woman he loves. It shows the readers how important she was to him and how much he loved her. Nobody bats an eye when it’s done the other way around…
Just write what you want to write. Trying to placate everyone is pointless. You could write the perfect book and someone somewhere will have a problem with it simply to be problematic. 🤷🏻♀️
Bingo. I think it's so common because people can relate to it on such a deep, visceral level: everyone fears this happening, and no one doubts the power of such a tragedy. To play devil's advocate, however, I DO see why people would have a problem with writers who don't give us time/reason to connect to the lost love: it's hard to feel connected to an abstraction, so it can feel like very lazy storytelling if it's rushed in the pursuit of other narrative developments (which may be more interesting to the writer). Nonetheless, I still wouldn't call that "problematic."
To this point, I've done similarly in some of my writings, simply because it _made sense,_ and in one as part of a twist: it's the main character's one friendly/familial love amid a childhood of abuse. She's situationally idealized, cementing the notion of goodness and innocence, and her senseless murder in his youth cements the notion of corruption and injustice, serving as a catalyst on his long path toward righteous villainy. (Basically, she's Socrates to his Plato, if Plato appointed himself judge, jury, and executioner.) She's absolutely there for the narrative arc, _but it works._
Some characters are best meant to die. Kill them all!
@@AurorXZ Exactly, and I do see your point, but that’s from a practical reader perspective and makes perfect sense, of course we want everything to make sense. This list of “problematic tropes” just sounds a little like readers want zero bad things to ever happen to the characters, and putting restrictions on writers just makes no sense, especially in fiction. If you think a book is going to offend or “trigger” or upset you in any way then just don’t read it😅 maybe check out the genre or read the summary first and use some common sense lol. I’m a pretty picky reader myself, I have an editor brain so I can get very particular about things, but people are being way too critical these days. If you don’t like it then don’t read it. That simple! Because as much as I hate certain tropes, when tropes are done correctly, they can be SO good and really give meat to the story. Also, these “tropes” are more realistic than people think. Some people who experience assault DO come out a little thicker skinned after having experienced the darkest parts of humanity, and as a result it makes them more cautious. Losing loved ones really does motivate people in different ways. I think the people who are complaining about men losing their women are missing the point. They just want someone to get on a soap box and preach about but they don’t stop and realize that the man feels weaker when he loses the woman he loved because she made him feel stronger, SHE was his rock. This was done in the Netflix Punisher series and it’s frickin AWESOME. It shows the love and tenderness he had for his family and makes you root for him that much more…even though he’s low key kinda an antihero😂
@@katelynharrison3779 Totally agreed there! This type of moralistic plot policing is well intentioned but absolutely _killing creativity._ We all just want a good story, dammit!
@@katelynharrison3779 Just saw the edit, and YES! To support one point, trauma _does_ sometimes make us stronger. I was shocked to recently learn that "post-traumatic growth" is both an established thing, AND more common than PTSD. (Scott Kaufman's literature is great on this) Insisting that trauma is inherently damning-and thus teaching people to disproportionately fear it-primes everyone to be worse off. One might say ... it's problematic.
I see your point, Jenna, and I don't disagree with you on ALL of these, but as a writer myself I think we need to take a more serious approach to reaching out to people who not only "internalize" fiction but can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality instead of "oh let's just change the tropes". A story is a story at the end of the day, not real life. Dunno I think there's a balance to be struck here we're not striking.
I’ve been thinking about this too. Apparently there is never any responsibility on readers to think critically. I’m not saying writers shouldn’t also think critically about what messages they’re sending through their narrative. And the more writers know about people different from themselves and seek to truly understand them, the more likely they will have compelling characters that people can really relate to. But it is really important for anyone enjoying any piece of media to question what they’re taking in.
@@bloop6111 exactly!
(I don’t know how to find a balance other than providing authors notes or something where we add “we do not condone ____”. But I don’t know 🤷♀️)
Sometimes the media we consume are internalized into our subconscious and we have no control over that. It kinda sucks but the responsibility still falls back on writer's not to enforce negative stereotypes. For example, women being attracted to toxic men that treat them badly because of crappy romance novels that glorify abuse.
@@evangelinemmayie6116 that's bull. If women didn't put out a demand for toxic romance books, they wouldn't exist. How about people think about what they're consuming and if it has a negative effect on them stop consuming it.
No, it is NOT the writers' responsibility. We're writers not life coaches. We are only obligated to tell a story.
Really glad you posted this! As a trans person, I'm so tired of the trans person being the butt of the joke, the sex worker, and the murder victim. Here's another trope I hate: If you're attractive, being a stalker is cute and quirky. WRONG! Being a stalker is just creepy. The "I was forced into it but I eventually enjoyed it so it's okay" is also EXTREMELY problematic.
So basically no matter what character you created for book you will hurt someone feelings
The lesson is to write for yourself first and for others second. This is what I'm doing right now and it's so liberating. I hate to compare myself to Tolkien because it sounds so arrogant... But his works were for his own pleasure, he didn't allow others to dictate his stories. And it shows - the passion and love that went into his books is palpable in every page.
⚠️⚠️⚠️ Trigger warning: Sexual assault ⚠️⚠️⚠️
Just saying, sexual assault can make you stronger. Said as a survivor myself. That's what happened in my case. It was a hard road but it happened. It forced me to grow up. It doesn't make me some badass hero who kicks butt though 😂 It just made me the strong person I am today I feel. I don't think it necessarily needs to be in fiction, and I definitely see the problem there, but if you have written a few books without it, and the writer is a survivor and that happened to be their case, I don't think it should require criticism. Especially ESPECIALLY if they write another main character that gets sexually assaulted, and they have the COMPLETE opposite response to it. Where they let their life slip away between their fingers, stop bathing, under or over eat, become insanely depressed, and drop out of school. If I hadn't been sexually assaulted, I would NOT have found the will to get through college. Does that make what happened ok? Absolutely not, and that is not what I'm getting at. I'm just saying it isn't remotely implausible to have that occur because I'm living proof. I didn't want to give him the satisfaction of knowing I dropped out of college because I had to see him every day. So I got through college just so that I could prove to him that he might have had control then, but he didn't have control of me anymore. But my friend had something similar happen, and she let depression take over her entire life and still does. She moved back in with her dad, has no job (not that I have one, so I'm not trying to bash here. I'm just trying to say different people react differently and if that's presented, it shouldn't really be a problematic trope. But 100% the character who gets stronger needs to say that it isn't ok that they were sexually assaulted, and there needs to be more than one character representing the other side of things because BOTH responses are equally as valid), became an addict, and stays in bed all day every day pretty much. Never goes out or spends time with friends, never bathes, overeats, and dropped out of college after it happened. This was 7 years ago and she's not recovered any unfortunately. So as a survivor, I'd say, if you have to do it, have several books written without it, then have TWO characters in the SAME book that are SAed, preferably both main characters and not just mentioned characters or side characters, that's not really going to cut it here unfortunately. Where one character goes stronger and the other let's depression take over. Maybe a plot can be trying to help that person get back on their feet. But if you have two main characters in the book have that experience. Maybe at the same time by the same person, or by different people at different times and in different ways. Because no two sexual assaults are the same. My friend was SAed by someone she considered a friend. My SA was done by my boyfriend at the time. Different people have different kinks, it can be opportunistic or it can be planned. Can happen under duress or they can just be stronger than you. And women 1,000% can sexually assault a man. All these are potential factors in why two sexual assaults never the same. Maybe one escapes and another is set free. Who knows! Just write an epic scene if it's a main point. But you NEED to have two main characters have that happen to them and two totally different responses after it happens if you want to make the toxic trope not toxic. Then you make the toxic trope that falsely says that it's ok to sexually assault people because it will make them stronger (Again, absolutely not true because it's NEVER NEVER ok to sexually assaulted anyone ever!!) to saying, hey, sexual assault happens and it's ok if you've gone through this no matter how you're coping with it, because you're just doing your best to stay afloat after something awful happened and accurately portraying what the aftermath is like. I would call it advocacy. That being said, please don't make sexual assault the entire character. Not every characteristic is going to stem from the sexual assault. They aren't going to become good at everything they're good because of it or bad at everything they're bad at because of it. Maybe they were funny before and make very morbid jokes after the sexual assault. Maybe like my friend, they were good at cooking and loved cooking before that happened. Now they do it to cope and start their own restaurant or bakery or maybe they eat everything they make and gain weight. Either is ok! But you have to have one character do well after and the other do worse after. And just because they get worse, doesn't mean they can't recover, but it's going to take a lot of time and a lot of work after. I wouldn't even make the stronger character completely better after the attack even if it was years ago. Make some kind of issue still exists like PTSD. It's there for me even though it happened years ago.
I don't know if I'm right, but this is my opinion as a writer who has been sexually assaulted and become stronger because of it. This is just my opinion. Accurate representation in my opinion is everything if multiple characters have completely different outcomes because of it and if the stronger character still hasn't completely gotten their normal sense of life back after it
fridging is a hard topic especially in murder mystery story where the victim often are simply bystanders who have not much connection to the murderer as they both barely know each other , but i think it is best to shown some origin story after the mystery was solved showing us the life of the victim and what they have experienced before becoming a victim to a murder i think this at least let the audience knew that she isnt just a victim but also a human with their own stories and goal
fridging can be used but as long as it have important purpose other than to let the MC get revenge (i like to think of what would theyre family think or will this cause a feud between the two family like i have one story where a girl was being fridge but i think i need to write her goal and origin story first so she wasnt just a disposable character)
just like the first as long as they have theyre goal motives and story they could be consider a character instead of disposable character (this is my opinion free to tell me what you think as long as it is not spoken badly)
I agree with your points. However, I will just say that ignoring what is because it's emotionally painful isn't realistic.
Thank you for talking about the better off dead trope. Just because someone is neurodivergent or disabled doesn't mean their life isn't worth living.
I feel like I now have to take up the gauntlet and see if i can write and get a book published with all these tropes and more. As a challenge.
I’m a severe abuse survivor and in some way it made me stronger, I’m not a victim anymore. But I agree on that is usually handled poorly in the media. Also that’s only my experience and doesn’t go with other people.
I think many of these tropes could still work depending on the various situations the characters could be written in, how they're written in, etc. I think it just all depends.
Absolutely calling out A Little Life with the last one (but it’s a double combo because the MC would be ‘better off dead’ on account of trauma AND disability) and I’ve never gotten angrier at a book in my whole life. The fact that Hanya can just go on interviews and state that in her opinion some people are just ‘too broken to be fixed’ while in the same breath mentioning she did no research into trauma, disability or the people who live with it is just enraging. How fucking dare you is right.
Went to the comments hoping to see someone point this out. I didn't read it but read a summary and then found the same comments from the author, and the whole thing just reeked of trauma porn and pity, and I've been really uncomfortable with the intense praise I've seen for the book.
I strongly agree.
"sex work is real work"
True! Our society looks down on those people so hard, thank you for talking about it.
As one ND to another, THANK YOU. You're an insperation.
@5:33 could also be "the token nonwhite character" and "the token nonwhite character dies first". Just saying.
@6:46 for those who didn't know, "Women in Refrigerators" was coined by comics writer Gail Simone after Alexandra Dewitt, Green Lantern Kyle Rayner's girlfriend, was murdered by the supervillain Major Force, who then stuffed her body in her refrigerator, where Kyle discovered her.
@9:48 the comics series "The Boys" (source material for the Amazon series) SERIOUSLY called out that trope
"Women can be... any other assertive trait without first being demeaned." A close friend of mine is a woman that, when she was a young girl, was repeatedly sexually abused by an older woman. Sexual violence doesn't have a gender, so the "by a man" bit at the end is unnecessary.
In fiction it’s almost always by men
@@hogndog2339 It is true that men are always the abuser and the violent ones in a lot of fiction, but I think sexual violence and sexual abuse needs to discuss for all genders though. There is a book book called A Child Called "It" and it's a biographical story of a coming of age boy who's abuser was the mother, a female (it gets rather brutal and it's one of those stories where you need to be in the right frame of mind and to be cautious if anyone is wiling to ever read it). Just an example how these horrific abuses can happen to anyone. It's horrible and disgusting and demeaning to anyone. And I wish we as a society in general need to be open that anyone that goes through horrific abuse. Like what the other person said, sexual violence and any abuse doesn't have a gender.
Some of these tropes aren't necessarily bad in a vaccuum, but they become very problematic with the framing in the story. Having a woman overcoming a sexual assualt and learning to adapt to the trauma and how it affects her daily life is a fine narrative to tackle, but it's generally not what a writer focuses on. The assault is just a shortcut button for "strong female character," which is gross. For the aggressive male character, this isn't necessarily bad in a story, but it IS when the story always frames the behaviour as romantic or eventually desired. Even if the partner shows resistance at first, it's eventually accepted as okay in the narrative framing so the behaviour "seems forgiven" when it's still gross.
In short, it's not wrong to use some of them, but writers need to be aware of the negative aspects of the tropes and don't wield them carelessly.
Totally! Boils down to "tropes aren't necessarily bad, it's all about the intent and execution."
@@xAlecto An even more succinct way of putting it is TVTropes's "Tropes are tools".
Use a large plumbing wrench to bash an innocent person over the skull, that's a bad use for that tool. Use the same tool to stop the flooding in someone's basement, that's a good usage of that tool. Now, what if you use the wrench to bash a home invader cause you had no better weapon at hand?
Incidentally, I just came to the realization that the last example is what I essentially did with a character.
I feel same thing goes for mentally ill villains: If it is a story about someone who is ill and because of the Illness, mixed with its social stigma and misstreatment turns evil hits very different than "yeah, this guy has Borderline, so he is basically Hitler". "Joker" (while not perfect by any means) hits very different, than lets say Cletus Cassedy in Venom II.
@@Jan-gh7qi - This is true, though I think Jenna is right that if the story only has the “villains” dealing with mental illness, it still sends a bad message. Most regular people deal with some sort of mental or emotional strain in life, so not having at least one protagonist living and coping with a mental illness can still send the message that “only people with a mental illness will become a murderer (or whatever).” Consider how the US often blames school shootings on “kids who were bullied and mentally unwell” rather than any other possible cause-this creates a stigma on mental illness as being dangerous when many people with a mental illness function fine in real life, especially if they have access to the proper resources to help them.
I agree. It really depends on the creators on how they handle controversial topics, especially in regards of sexual assault. I highly recommend the show I May Destroy You and how the show deals with the subject of sexual assault in both interesting and different types of ways other stories regarding sexual assault are told. It brings up interesting topics regarding the blurred lines on what is considered consent and what isn’t and the show keeps the “survivor of sexual violence” troupe in regards to their main female protagonist, but the show does a brilliant job in using that trope to allows the audience to journey through amazing character arc and truly understand the main character the end. We, as the audience, understand who she is on a personal level, and some may not agree with her decisions at the end of the show, we, as the audience, can understand the reasons behind her actions.
There are time and place for sensitive topics, but they must be treated with grace and respect.
Thank you so much, Jenna, for incorporating the neurodivergent/mental health tropes into this video. I can hardly think of stories that write relatable ND characters or ones that struggle with mental health. They’re either 1) Only there to help the main character or 2) Are only known for their disability or tragedy.
I do have a future story in mind that comes from how I experience my autism, so I’m glad I can look back on this video.
Id recommend Brandon Sandersons Stormlight Archives. I think every member of the main cast, save for Adolin, is either ND or struggles with a form of mental illness, and theyre all handled exceptionally well. Without spoiling much, one of the main characters, Kaladin. His struggle with his own mental health and depression. A lot of moments i resonated with, and hit home. Its a series Id recommend highky
@@jacobhatcher5409 Thank you for the recommendation! I'll add it to my Goodreads List
Jenna is right sexual assault in the real world more often produces people who are depressed by their experience , if lucky take advantage of therapy and go on to live normal lives.
I will say for the fridging the woman one. Death can be a good motivator for the main character, I dont think that it matters if its a woman or not. If it happens to be a woman that's fine. However men are also just as helpful. Honestly when its just like a best friend or something like that, it actually makes the scene more impactful than the common version of the trope. However do what works best for your story. Just definitely don't go out of your way to make it a woman. Thats more where the problem comes in.
I think a lot of times, fridging is made worse by surrounding issues that highlight the fact that a certain group is conveniently getting shafted. Not only are women getting fridged, but they're made helpless, weak, or stuck in soft or stereotypical roles, among other things. Ya feel me?
@@ramenbomberdeluxe4958yeah, which theres nothing wrong with a person in general from time to time ending up in that sort of position even. But the frequency of specific groups yeah. Should be a lot rarer for someone to be completely defenseless. (in reference to books still)
@@ramenbomberdeluxe4958 and it’s often not of their own doing. It’s often a thing done because they’re associated with another character. Double so if the death is offscreen.
I think the main issue is, its overused (not necessarily "always bad", and it sure can be emotionally impactful) and overlooks other ways the hero would be motivated. Like couldn't he be motivated to help simply from witnessing terrible things done to others, if they are a good person to begin with that has a sense of justice and sympathy? It doesn't have do be their personal loved ones. And it doesn't have to be death either. It could be slavery, torture, long lasting abuse, oppression/persecution of a group etc. As a teenager (and maybe even now if put in the right situation), I would have fought and risked my life to save others from these things. Why is it so seldom used in fiction, when it could actually be a motivation in real life? If a character is gonna get killed of to motivate the protagonist, then they should ideally first get to actually play a role in the story and have a distinct personality
These are excellent points and thank you for giving us these pearls of wisdom. One other thing though, where did you get those adorable snake earrings?? I love them so much!
To be honest I don't think people should really connect their real life with fic specially fantasy books cz one can't restrict from writing others in different style but it's problematic if people are really inspiring themselves from these books. That's utterly stupid in my view bc fic/fantasy is for experiment and entertainment. Fic and real life can never be same
5:26 For dubious consent, I suppose this may have been part of the "bad readings" Alessandro Serenelli had taken in before thinking he could talk Maria Goretti into changing a no to a yes, and got furious and killed her when discovering it wasn't so. I'd agree on this one.
You gave anxiety, etc. as examples of mental illness a writer could give their heroes but I've never seen anxiety treated as a villain's mental illness. That seems to be mixing up the term used in fiction with the much broader term as it's used clinically. Mental illness in fiction seems to refer specifically to delusion, sociopathy or some non-specific, Joker-style erratic zaniness that isn't actually any mental illness that exists. (Joker is said to have every mental illness in the book, which is impossible because some illnesses totally contradict each other and having every form of anxiety and depression and OCD would make the Joker completely unable to accomplish anything.)
The only ones that come to my mind are both soldiers; the patient in The Outer Limits s1e8 The Human Factor and Michael Biehn's character in The Abyss.
EDIT: There's Smith in Netflix's Lost In Space but I'm not sure that's clinical anxiety.
Because Anxiety is a lame trait for a vilain to have. They will probably be afraid of fighting the hero and be nervous all the time. A good writer can probably handle it but it can make for a boring villain
If "yOu'Re NoT lIkE tHe OtHeRs, ThIs Is PrOgReSsIvE, GoOd AnD/oR rOmAnTiC" nonsense isn't on the list in the future... No, your main girl/minority insert/"redeemed" villain isn't "one of the good ones", they're _just_ like the others more often than not, and your cast isn't doing anyone any favors by ignoring that character internalized pieces of the culture/group they're originally from to focus on how they're not the stereotype they've always heard instead of realizing that *MAYBE* that group isn't a mass of stereotypical behavior. No favors at all.
Hate these absolute statements about tropes.
1. Maybe someone is writing about the evils of killing LBGT people. How do you build suspense around an LBGT character if there isn't the possibility of them dying?
2. No means no. I remember talking with a childhood friend who delighted in telling how she tormented her husband to be, making him chase her relentlessly. To her, no didn't mean no, it meant try harder. No means no is too one dimensional and doesn't represent real life, and limits conflict. This brings up memories of watch my mother watch TV in the 60's. A story that liberals would love today, of strong, independent women, she hated, as it wasn't romantic. She definitely wouldn't have agreed with you.
3. Blacks, like LGBT, can't have suspense built around them because you can't kill them off? Kill a white guy first? Got ya.
4. Don't kill women. Same as 1 and 3. Can you fridge a dog? I guess fridging a man is OK?
7. My generation: What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Today's generation: Everything makes you a victim.
8. Mental illness. Sigh. The villain shouldn't wear glasses or hearing aids either, eh? Walking with a limp, have a lisp, have anxiety disorders? Aren't stories supposed to be INCLUSIVE?
These "problematic" tropes just sound like liberal views on tropes, and if you look at it, you are essentially saying don't kill POC, LBGT or women; which leaves what? Just kill straight white men? Everyone has a thin skin, so just write about purple people from another planet who are perfect, so no one is offended when they die? What, the villain had acne? Oh my god, so do I! My life is ruined!
I grew up watching movies from Asia where the white guy was often the villain. Jackie Chan's City Hunter is one of my favorite movies. As a Polish descendent, I kept Polish joke books as a child. They were funny. As a white, Polish guy, It's ok, it doesn't scar you. Maybe it makes you stronger, thicker skinned, more adept at surviving to be the butt of jokes or characterization than would being coddled. It's a cruel world out there, people learn to survive it without safe spaces.
As it is, now that I know your viewpoint, if I see a woman, an LBGT or black character in your books, I'll feel no suspense related to them, because I know they will survive. Boring.
my, our vines have tender grapes
I haven't been watching the WoT series for _several_ reasons, but when I found out the gave Perrin a wife _just_ so they could fridge her I was so offended and outraged that they would not only fuck with Robert Jordan's characters _so badly_ but in literally one of the *_laziest ways imaginable_* that I was at a loss of actual words for a good half minute.
On an unrelated note, why the hell are the people from the Two Rivers both white _and_ mixed ethnicity? Pick one - I don't care which. That location is supposed to be largely homogeneous due to being largely, if not entirely, comprised of a very small number of survivors of a war _centuries_ in the past. With the _sole exception_ of Rand, everyone else in that fairly _isolated_ region should look essentially similar in ethnicity. Jordan did a good job with diversity and Brandon Sanderson did even better, so forcing it in such a sloppy way is just... bad.
They also rushed things along, which is probably alright, though they scrambled the order a little. If they don't do better with the 2nd season though they're gonna have a hard time finishing what they started. Honestly, they really should have done an animated series. Like, get the guys who did Marvel's AU series and Avatar the Last Airbender together and make it _right._
Re: Why is the Two Rivers multicultural
Because there was no way they were going to have them all be white/mediterranean in appearance & raceswapping everyone would never be accepted either.
As for them doing better in season 2, it's not likely, they're reportedly going to diverge from the books even more & some of the leaked stuff is just bad. The showrunner has made it clear enough he's not going to even attempt to adapt it faithfully & we should take him at his word.
That show is a disappointment on so many levels :’(
The moment I saw Nineveh pushing Eugene off a cliff to seemingly initiate her I decided that they didn't understand their characters. I'm so gutted to hear that perrin was done so dirty. Especially since all fans know he gets married in later books, like what the hell is the point of a dead wife. (I've only seen trailers, but didn't want to risk it lol)
@@bookworm975 SPOILER ALERT
Well, I don't know if it's really a spoiler since it happens in the first episode, and is mostly about the setup, but they made it where his wife's death is the direct result of something he does, and he carries that guilt with him throughout much of the first season.
I don't know how things went down in the books, and I do feel bad for the wife, but as a casual viewer I feel it added an interesting layer to his character, without which he would be completely bland and uninteresting (as presented in the show).
Honestly though, I found most of the characters pretty bland in the show. I think it took me several episodes just to remember everyone's names, figure out what was special about them and start caring about any of them. I assume they're presented better in the books.
@@knightsabre7 In the books the Emond's Field 5 are all romantically naïve at the beginning, everyone in town assumes Rand & Egwene will get together eventually but they haven't yet when the story starts. Rand, Mat, and Perrin all envy each other's apparent skill when talking with women, not realizing that none of them really know what they're doing. BOOK SPOILERS: Perrin is the first to marry, but it's not until book 4.
Very relevant list. Unfortunately, I can think of several books from each of the tropes you brought up. #1 strikes deep for me for personal reasons, which I've seen happen. I will always appreciate your wit, sarcasm, and sense of humour as well as your honesty.
1. Someone should have shown this to Sia.
2. Thank you! I'm especially sick of the better off dead, the predator and the Inspiration porn trope.
You know me, I am autistic, depressed and got EDS(new diagnosis, yay!) But I like to live without getting told "I couldn't live the way you live, you're such an inspiration!"
"Person, you either live this way, or you die. Basically telling someone it's wrong you're able to live is kinda shitty to the max."
“Should have show this to Sia” I’m 👏🏻😂👏🏻
Hi, fellow autistic ☺️
Sia wouldn’t have listened, she received a lot of legit backlash from “magic” and reacted rudely.
appreciate you so much for speaking up about all these tropes.
Real life is messy, not sanitized and proper, and I don’t really get the push to avoid certain storylines because we would then also be unable to address real conflicts people face. I don’t disagree with everything in this video but it’s totally unrealistic to downplay mental illness when constructing a good villain. Sociopathy, extreme narcissism, etc are tied to mental illness which fuels people to do evil things, just as an example. Sure, not all illnesses are harmful to others, so we should all take care to not demonize anyone unnecessarily, but it has nothing to do with balancing the number of good and bad guys with mental illness. It comes down to constructing a realistic and nuanced villain. We don’t have to treat every topic with kid gloves.
A lot of those boil down to a couple really simple general rules:
-Don’t make minority characters into devices that only service characters that are part of privileged groups in the real worlds.
-Make minority characters actual characters and treat them the same as others
"Better off dead" is just indescribably awful. It's at it's most awful when referring to real-life neurodivergence and disability, but honestly I can't stand it even in a sci-fi/fantasy scenario. Someone gets mutated? Let's kill them off and call it a mercy! ... Like, no, I'd really prefer to be a living mutant, thanks....
As a blind person, I can safely say that the better off dead Trope is better off dead. My life is just fine even though I can’t see. I can do exactly what the rest of you can do. I can draw for God’s sake. I’m an author myself, and I like to think that I’m pretty good at it too. The worst thing is, I keep seeing the better off dead trope appearing more and more. And what’s probably even worse than that is the number of times I see a disability cure trope. I once read a story online about a blind girl whose boyfriend created eyedrops to let her see. I read it and wanted to Drop dead.
Also blind and I’ve just started to learn to draw! I actually didn’t think it was possible when I lost my sight but I discovered Procreate and it’s accessibility features a couple of weeks ago
I especially couldn't stand that whole "assault makes you stronger" thing in Game of Thrones like you mentioned. It wasn't even just that. It was like after Sansa got raped, she could do no wrong, she was always right, and everybody else was always wrong. Yeah, umm...I don't think that's how it really works! Anyways, interested if you do more of these!
Great video,
Two that bug me.
1. 80s and 90s Rom-Coms that told us stalking is romantic.
2. And a disability is not a superpower.
Related to point 7: strong/skilled/expert women can have learned their skills from women in their lives! I've lost count of how many times I see a female character display any kind of supposedly 'masculine' ability - e.g. knowing how to throw a punch - and the explanation is "oh, my dad really wanted a son", or "I have four older brothers".
The one I wanna see is:
"I have four older brothers."
"Oh, they did a great job!"
"No, you misunderstand me. The oldest does ballet, the one just above me was in chess club, and the middle twins were born preemie. I may have come last, but no one was going to pick on them while I was around."
XD
@@hendrikscheepers4144 My personal fav (and my RL reason) is "My grandparents wanted to make sure everybody could take care of themselves and survive on their own. Everyone knows how to cook and sew, everyone knows how to shoot and take care of their car." Grandma taught the boys how to cook and sew, Grandpa taught the girls how to hunt and take care of a car. (Any fighting rhey picked up was from amongst themselves.) My uncle taught me to hunt, Grandpa and his brother taught me car maintenance, all three taught me a bit of construction and plumbing (I suck at electrical though), Grandma and dad taught me how to cook, and Grandma and mom taught me how to sew. I'm now 28, and a mother myself. Both my boys will be learning everything too. XD
I’m going to write a badass male character who learned all of his skills from his five older sisters.
What a video! One of the videos that make me wish we were friends. Beautiful, meaningful and necessary.