Why NO Altar Call? In Reformed Churches
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- Опубликовано: 21 апр 2023
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I enjoy your channel Matthew. I'm preparing to plant a Reformed Baptist church in my area. Being a former pentecostal for 40 years, it's amazing how many seemingly nuance differences there are in Reformed theology, such as the altar calls.
I remember in pentecostalism how the altar call was such an emotionally manipulated "event" that produced or reinforced much false theology.
Thanks for your explanation on why we don't do emotional decision-ism on the Lord's Day.
Please pray for us as we plant a Reformed baptist church in a strong pentecostal and southern baptist community.
What’s wrong with being emotional when coming to God? The Bible is filled with examples of human emotion.
@@Stangy04 emotion, and faith are two different things. One can respond out of emotion without faith and remain lost. Another can respond out of faith without emotion and be made right with God.
I'm not saying you can't respond with faith and emotion, but human depravity and false pentecostal theology center on what they can get others to do, too often for show.
The real change happens when the Gospel is preached and the elect respond to TRUTH, not men and religious shows before other people.
@@ActualTruth123 well obviously it comes down to the faith, but the opposite could be said that one can come to Christ full of emotions and sincerity while another can approach God in a more logical sense, not be sincere and not be saved. There’s bad apples in every denomination…
@@Stangy04 I can tell you without a doubt, pentecostal theology on the whole is just a pond compared to the vast ocean of depth from a Reformed perspective. Pentecostals and charismatics are truly missing it in many ways i.e., women preachers, false tongues, no eternal security, works based righteousness, improper understanding of scripture, no grasp of church history... 99% of pentecostals I've surveyed think Roman Catholicism is just a different christian denomination! Since there's a sect of Roman Catholicism that also speak in false tongues, that makes pentecostals ripe for the ecumenical unity picking.
I just can't consciously affirm that belief system anymore.
@@ActualTruth123 That’s interesting, I think Pentecostals are more aligned with the First Century than reformed churches which are heavily influenced by 15th century European perspective. Also, the most godliest people I’ve met were Pentecostals with a relationship with Jesus. Have you falsely spoke in tongues when you were charismatic?
GREAT EXPLANATION!! I WAS WONDERING ABOUT ALTAR CALLS.
Matthew, the Spirit is strong in you!
The alter call has done much harm to the modern church. It's deceived many
I feel the actual modern “Alter Call” is not a coming forward to do the “sinners prayer”. It’s a call to prayer in the alter for what they’ve just heard.
“Lord, help me apply what I’ve just heard” or “Lord, forgive me of what I’ve just heard” or “Lord, help me know you better” etc
It’s a call for corporate prayer.
Not in most churches where its practiced..
Matthew, thank you for doing this video in response to my question. Yes, my did come from a good place. As a person who has grown up in churches where the “altar call” or invitation at the end of service was the norm. I’ve often wondered how an unbeliever who has repented and come to faith make it known.
How about talking to the Pastor afterwards or over the phone telling him "I got the matter settled, I am now SAVED!"? I am sure also that if you were to approach the Pastor or one of the elders in the Church, they would be more than happy to work through any questions with you may have and help you in whatever way is needful! Hopefully they would not just rush you through the "Romans Road" and have you "Pray a Sinner's Prayer" so they can hurry and beat the Methodists to Applebees!😉
And Harold Zwingley is right, one makes their profession of faith public when they are baptized and welcomed into the fellowship of the Church!
If reformed churches would serve the Lord’s Supper every Sunday, they would all have an altar call every time! 😊
Our Reformed Baptist church observes the Lord's Supper every week!
Exactly!
Excellent point!
This was a good video Pastor Matt. I’ve recently read the autobiography of Charles Finney. I know that he taught perfectionism which I’m sure you’re aware means that Christians can attain perfect holiness in this life by the grace of God and the work of Holy Spirit. I disagree with this doctrine, however I don’t see it as a salvation issue.
I was really intrigued about Finney’s presentation of the Gospel. In nearly all his sermons, he pressed people with God views sin and was intentional about preaching from passages that discussed Gods righteous judgement against sin. He then concluded every message with the Gospel using and citing various passages to properly present the mercy and grace of God.
In my understanding, Finney believed that we must preach the conviction of sin and the mercy and grace of God available to sinners. In doing this, He believed the Holy Spirit would convict and he would urge his hearers to accept Christ right then and there and receive forgiveness from sin. This method of preaching would still fall in line with pre-destination in theory. However, Finney also urged people that pre-destination aside, it had to be them who made the choice to accept Christ. Christ would never force Himself into a relationship with us. He offers it to us, and we choose to receive Him or deny Him.
I believe pre-destination is more so the idea that God, in His sovereignty, knew who would accept Him and who would deny Him and He then pre-destined those who would accept Him to be sons and daughters of adoption.
While Finney had some questionable theology on certain topics, it appears through his autobiography and other documentation that many people who heard him preach did truly commit their lives to Christ and there was lasting fruit in their life as evidence of true salvations.
If he knew who would accept and who would deny then he would either create them that way or a sovereign God would have to “learn”. Food for thought
Interesting take. Thanks
Exactly what he said. Very well elaborated.
Good clear honest preaching, Pastor Matthew. I wish there was a decent Reformed church here in the Australian country area I live in. Tried three over a couple of years and now prefer studying my bible and books at home.
If I would come to the church, you are a very good word teacher, and thank you.
Thank you.
God wanted to save me through an alter call. Its real and used by the Lord but its only one way. God can save in any manner he chooses. Ten minutes after resisting the call to the alter, I went down to that alter and prayed with another two Christians and was born again at that moment. And yes it was the "sinners prayer" he answered.
It’s important to also mention that Charles Finney was a heretic since he was a Pelagian which means he believed that the fall of Adam did not affect his progeny throughout the ages.
Even the Roman church didn’t go that far, but still held to and still does something called “semi-Pelagianism,” which is still grievous error and disqualifies them from being considered a Christian institution, especially since the “Council of Trent.”
Good Stuff!
Thank you for clarifying this for me. I found this a very confusing topic.
No one enjoys discipline while it’s happening but afterwards you will enjoy a quiet harvest of right living
Thank you, brother.
I have a friend who admits that during those moments when “every head is bowed, all eyes are closed” he will look up discreetly, to see how God is moving.
5:54 “Now in our theology and our practice you need to be baptized and in communion with a Bible-believing church in order to receive the Lord’s supper” Requiring baptism and affiliation with a body of believers in order to receive the Lord’s supper are perspectives I’ve never heard before. Whether in Reformed or Armenian settings (and I am Reformed) the requirement I’ve heard expressed most frequently is a profession of faith, and that was a matter of one’s own confidence of salvation, not an expression of it to others in the service. In some denominations I’ve seen “close communion” practiced, in which the officiant knew the participants or had an opportunity to speak with visitors or new attendees before serving communion to them.
All Presbyterians, Lutherans, Anglicans, Catholics, and Orthodox all require being baptized to partake in Holy Communion, and either being a member at a Biblical church or their specific sect. This is the norm across historic Christianity, and downplaying the importance of this sacrament is really dangerous. Speaking from an Anglican, we believe in Baptismal regeneration, so if one is unbaptized and non-regenerated, then they should not partake in Holy Communion, which we believe has the true presence of Christ and is a true means of grace. The Presbyterians don't hold to Baptismal Regeneration, but they still hold higher values to the sacraments than general Evangelicals, which is why they still require Baptism to partake in Holy Communion. I don't want to misrepresent Presbyterians, so you'd have to ask one about their exact theology regarding this issue.
The Cross is the Altar. We don't have to go to a physical location. When Peter preached the first message in Acts, after Pentecost, the men were cut to the heart and asked , "what must we do to be saved?" And Peter replied, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized for the remission of your sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. And on that day over 3000 were added to the church. It wasn't just a physical baptism but a spiritual baptism, a regeneration of the heart
@Matthew Everhard, thank you for all your great content. Could you consider doing an episode discussing Paedocommunion? In my country in Europe there seems to be an increasing division on this topic among Presbyterian churches.
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased.
But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit.
This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.".
.
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.
-Acts 3:19
alter callis how i came to Christ. The Holy Spirit comvicted me that i wasnt right with God and that i needed to respond . I walked forward the next week. They helped m😂 pray😊
No, you were saved when yiu gave up yourself and decided to come to God thru Christ. Before you went to the altar. An alter call never saved anyone. Youd still be saved even if you never went to the altar. Why so hard to understand?
@@chriscravens8318 Holy Spirit in my heart told me it was urgent to respond and wanted me to go forward as i didnt know anything
@@chriscravens8318but what if that happens for someone during an altar call? I’m not a big advocate for altar calls but I think the Spirit of God can move whenever and wherever to lead someone to repentance.
Pastor, can you make an in depth video on the regulative principle. Focusing more on what not to do, I have clear that we have to pray, read and preach scripture, sing and administer sacraments. But I am not sure what we should not do.
"They were greatly disturbed because the apostles were teaching the people, proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection of the dead....But many who heard the message believed; so the number of men who believed grew to about five thousand."
After giving a clear gospel presentation I urge people to repent and believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
you could use the altar call to meet with potential believers, pray wit them, then later set up a meeting to discuss their faith.
They could. They could also ask those with questions regarding their eternal destiny to meet with the Pastor after the service or perhaps have an assigned Elder that the Pastor could refer them to.
None of this is set in stone and I'm sure each Pastor (Even Presbyterians) exercises his own discretion.
I think it could be used in that way. I'm not opposed to that. I guess in the latter years of life, my "reformedness" is a little more gracious.
If i saw one in scripture 😮
Yes! I think that’s what Pastor Matthew meant by new believers talking to elders afterwards. Not an altar call per say but more of an open invitation.
From personal experience and in my own opinion, I think there is value in doing some form of altar call. I wouldn’t do one so that I can keep track of numbers, but so that those who give their life to Christ can be properly identified and engaged by another person or elder in the Church.
Our Church in the past has used a text-in option if they gave their life to Christ at any given service and again, our heart behind it is not to keep records or boast, but to be able to personally interact with those people and get them plugged into fellowship.
This is why Presbyterianism makes sense because those who come to faith make a public profession in front of the church after they are examined by the elders.
They'll show Biblically based signs of life such as mentioned in 1 John, the fruit of the Spirit, etc. Also make certain that people know they can always talk to a pastor or elder and if you're a Baptist, They'll need to be baptized.
As a minister since I studied the classics I was no longer inclined to give an altar call.
I also am PCA, attending the Cathedral of the PCA in Birmingham. (Of course Presbyterians dont have cathedrals, its just a monniker in the south east) We do not do an altar call, but we do encourage anyone who wants to pray with an elder after the dismissal there will be men at the front of the sanctuary with whom they can talk and pray. But most of the evangelism takes place one on one. Growing up, I usually attended SBC or United Methodist churches. Small town churches. You better believe they had a weekly altar call just as described.
One question, If I answer the altar call and get saved (it's a correlation, not a causation) but my friend who's sat in the same service as me, does not, why does he not? The Reformed answer is because I have been regenerated and he has not, or has not yet exhibited regeneration. The decisionist free-will answer must come down to something in one of us. Either I'm smarter, or I am more attuned to spiritual things (which contradicts Epehsians and Romans and a host of other scripture) or some reason internally why I repent and confess Christ and he does not.
Well presented.
It is unfortunate that many congregations believe that saving faith precedes regeneration and that that faith is the product of the hearer's will. Because of this belief the members on both sides of the pulpit believe that it is biblical and morally imperative that they be salesmen for Christ. Since this belief is often accompanied by a simplistic understanding of eternal security it is believed that any means to coerce a person to make a profession of faith will guarantee their salvation. It's as if salvation is like a tattoo, easy to get, hard to remove.
That is not to say that some do not experience the gift of saving faith responding to an alter call, I did some 41-years ago but that is because God in His infinite wisdom chose to bring me from spiritual death to life some time before that. I had heard the gospel presented innumerable time prior to that but being then spiritually dead I could not understand what the gospel actually was.
While I am convinced that the gospel should be briefly but explicitly presented in each church service no good at all is accomplished by treating it as a sales, let alone a high pressure, sales pitch. It is a dangerously corrupted understanding of soteriology.
The Didache tells us what to do in chapter 7 if there is no running water.
When it comes to salvation, if you want to know who is ultimately responsible for it, just turn to 1 Corinthians 3:6-7 for the apostle Paul tells us that it’s “God that gives the increase or growth,“ meaning is responsible for regeneration in human souls after Paul and Apollos (and everyone else who does any level of evangelism) do their parts.
This is also why it’s important to understand the “parable of the soils” that the Lord Jesus Christ teaches in the gospels.
The Lord’s Supper is the Reformed alter call
Or all the close your eyes and if you want to ask Jesus into your heart, raise your hand…
As a Presbyterian who loves all church history, I was really surprised to learn that John Winebrenner was my 5th great-grand uncle. He was locked out of his German Reformed congregation for incorporating the anxious bench and other tools. His theology changed drastically as well.
His actions have rippled through time within the family. Fortunately, I was one of those who escaped his Arminian theology.
Both ways have their value, even "altar calls", if they are done in a reverent, non-showy way after preaching the Word solidly. I repented at an altar call, serving the Lord for close to 40 years now. In the end it all depends on the Holy Spirit. If not, you can pretend to have repented even if it wasn't at an altar call, and you would still not be saved.
How about the biblical way
Churches with Pastors that give an invitation every service to congregants to receive Christ as their Personal Savior - grow in leaps and bounds. This has been proven - again and again.
There's a difference between the invitation and an altar call. In the church age there shouldn't be "altars" inside of a physical church building.
And they often pack their auditoriums full of false converts! They also need other man-centered manipulative tactics in order to keep them there!
True Church growth is centered around expository preaching, discipleship, and FEEDING the ones God has entrusted to your care! The congregation will grow firstly from genuine Christians who are spiritually starving and fed up with the nonsense going on at the above mentioned Church. From there, the Lord will add to the Church daily such as should be saved!
To the OP - what a ridiculous argument. Watch the video again and listen this time.
Numbers mean nothing...
@@bigtobacco1098Acts 2:40-41
Sounds Rational to me. ⭐️👍🇺🇸🏳️🌈🏳️🌈✝️✡️🕎
I am not calvinist and I don’t do an alter call. I see the mode that Finney introduced were manipulatory and therefore wrong. I could stand up on Sunday and manipulate people into “a decision”, but that is wrong Biblically. I do the same thing you do, preach the gospel and call people to repent.
Salvation is between us and God, and others do not have to know
Do you mean the moment of salvation? Because we can’t live a private faith…
Part of the problem here is that many Christians fail to distinguish between the external call of the Gospel and the internal call of the Holy Spirit. They say that God calls all men externally, and then when some men repent and believe, God gives them new life. It is true that God calls all men, but it is not true that God gives them new life based on their repentance and faith. Rather, while God calls all men externally, He only calls His own internally.
Paul refers to the effectual call when he writes, “It is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill His good purpose” (Philippians 2:13). The necessity of the effectual call is emphasized in Jesus’ words, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them” (John 6:44).
I like the altar call as it can drive folks to come forward that are seeking to know the Lord, even if they don't end up getting converted that day. It can lead to a meaningful conversation or a receiving of literature which, while not proving instant conversion, could be the seed planted that leads to something down the line. There are of course some genuine conversions at the altar call as well (and praise the Lord for that!), but I think it has some tremendous positives, as long as we don't wrongly assume that everyone that comes forward is saved immediately. It needs to be done by a church with discerning leadership that can give those coming forward the appropriate support to take the next steps, whether they're fully saved there and then or have had their consciences pricked and want to know more.
Altar call in scripture ??
@@bigtobacco1098 well, if we only did things specifically mentioned in scripture, we wouldn't be here on YT chatting about this. :) We also wouldn't have church parking lots, pews, bulletins, children's ministry, etc. We would basically not do 99% of what we currently do. So I don't think that is a good argument unless you want to ditch pretty much everything that Christians do (including watching and commenting on YT videos). Needless to say, the Bible doesn't list every little thing that can be effective in serving and glorifying God.
If you have actual, biblical reasons for not doing it, I'd love to hear them.
Idiotic... parking lots IN WORSHIP???
@@TheRebeccaLivermore and why do you allow someone else to take away your children ??
@@TheRebeccaLivermore I agree... the protestant church has added a lot of unnecessary garbage
Alters were always outside the temple. Some call a stage an altar. All that call upon the name of Jesus will be saved..
In Acts 10:44-46 Peter was preaching to gentiles and the Holy Spirit came down on the gentiles while he was preaching the Gospel. They heard and believed. No alter call.
What about Romans 10:9-10- the heart ❤ mouth 😁 connection ?
You missed the whole point..
"With or without an altar call." So it's a matter of practice; neither right or wrong, right?
I think the gospel should always be preached. I also think people should be given the opportunity to speak with someone about salvation. It doesn't have to be what many call an altar call. (In my home church, it was called the Invitation to Christian Discipleship, the altar call was different). But, maybe they can come meet with a member if the prayer team after service. Not everyone needs counseling, but some may.
I don't like the number thing, either. Only God really knows how many people were saved. I can understand how people can be manipulated with music and lights. Bur, is it always manipulation? Music and lights can be understated to encourage an attitude of reverence during an altar call or upbeat and bright during an uptempo song. They shouldn' t be intentionally used to manipulate. But, the line will be drawn different places for different people.
In a pastor/preacher is truly preaching the word properly, can’t his whole sermon, sort of be considered, an “altar call?“
My pastor, yesterday morning, wrapped up his message on Mark 14 by asking the congregation if they have trusted in Christ, and to come see him or one of the other elders afterward, if not, and want to know more.
In other words, he doesn’t assume that membership in his church doesn’t guarantee salvation and that one needs to preach in a way as to stir souls up so they do not kid themselves.
Altar call in scripture ??
There is no altar in protestant churches. But Hebrews 13.10: "We have an altar....
Amen, you don't pray Jesus into your heart for salvation. He is there already, but we choose to hear Him or ignore Jesus. Jesus said believe and be BAPTIZED. Not alter calling.
That is true.
That is heresy.
How can you have an altar call without a sacrifice?
The person is the sacrifice, “present yourself as a living sacrifice”
But altar calls can be manipulative as we have seen.
Billy graham used this
All the more reason to reject it.
When did they come up with the idea of asking Jesus to come into your heart?
Jesus did ,,I stand at the door and knock,,,,read it for yourself it's in the book of revelation
@@mjrybreadJesus was speaking to a specific church in Revelation- did not mean he was standing at the door waiting for you to get saved.
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased.
But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit.
This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.".
:)
.
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.
-Acts 3:19
This prayer actually is not heretical. You just do not understand the context under which this prayer is written. It is not stating that Mary is the cause of their salvation. Jesus is as all Catholics understand. It is merely saying to the blessed mother I trust that you will advocate for me before the Lord. That's the context under what this prayer intends.
But being a protestant Christian, outside looking in, yes I can understand how you would find that smoking gun proof you need to reject the Catholic Church in a prayer like this. Even though it's not even required by the Catholic Church that you partake in this prayer.
You need to study the conversion of the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8:36 & the conversion of the Philippean jailer in Acts 16. In neither account the word “Repent” was not used, only believe. Of course to believe is the act of repentance. In the account of the Philippean jailer his whole family was converted that night.
In the account of the Ethiopian eunuch you will have to read the account of his salvation in the KJV because vs. 37 is missing in the ESV. & with that one verse missing the context in the ESV teaches that water baptism is essential to salvation. That’s one reason why I reject the Catholic inspired Alexandrian text. It’s clearly a whosoever gospel.
It is a public confession of faith. Altar calls are great! I've seen people receive Christ with my own two eyes
That’s how I received Christ. I grew up National Baptist and many denominational experiences later, I’m now Independent Fundamentalist Baptist and thankful. We have altar calls at my church and I see no harm.
Because there are no altars? 🤨
Its all about numbers, multiplying. Sad
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.
-Acts 3:19
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased.
But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit.
This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.".
.
Abuse and perversion of the good is common and should not be rejected. I’ve often seen people feeling convicted or moved by a sermon in my Presbyterian church but were not offered a meaningful way to do something about it. There’s a need to provide a some way for such to demonstrate a volitional change, than fritter away.
Bible on that? How ridiculous..
Believe, repent and be immersed in water for the forgiveness of your sins. That’s it. It ain’t complex.
The old immersed thing...
@@bigtobacco1098 Hi there Big Tobacco! Yes sir it is indeed old. They all did it…full immersion “for the forgiveness of sin.” Baptize Is a transliteration for immerse. Old school indeed. Most folks today get all emotional and inconvenienced by finding a pond, swimming pool or bathtub even. They are into asking Jesus into the heart thing.
@regularguy3202 how did the early church get this wrong??
And it has several meanings... just stop
@@bigtobacco1098 “Just stop…”. Now that sounds like a Democrat. No debate. Just tell people with different views to shut up.
@@regularguy3202 no... you are more than welcome to keep posting your ridiculous nonsense
When I think about the alter call , I think about when Jesus was teaching Peter to become fishers of men, first Peter cast his nets
but in order to get the first in the boat Perter had to pull the net into the boat
How ridiculous..
Some really flawed logic here. Coming forward and seeking God in an altar call service isn't you doing the work any more than prayer of repentance is you doing the work. The humbling effect of the altar does good for the soul. Altar calls are a real thing, my guy. When is the appointed time in a service dedicated to seeking God, save the altar call?
Christians (believers) are predestined. Predestination is “IN CHRIST.” Dead, unbelieving sinners (you before you believed) were NOT predestined, you were under God’s wrath and condemned. Ephesians says you were adopted and predestined “in Christ” when you believed and were united to Christ by faith in Him. This is an egregious and thoughtless error calvinists make, they misread the text and teach others the same error. Reformed do not give alter calls because no one is saved in calvinism! It is another gospel!
So God has no idea you are going to be saved until you are "In Christ?" How exactly does this work again?
@@63stratoman First, you had NO reply to my actual comment because you CAN'T refute it. 2nd you didn't know that God has foreknowledge of who will be saved? Now you will probably reply with something even more stupid.
@@63stratoman STOP looking at scripture through your calvinist lens and read your bible. God KNOWS who will be saved, that DOES NOT mean that God forces some to be saved and others to be lost "unconditionally." It simply means God knows (FOREKNOWLEDGE.)
thank you for bringing out the heresy of calvinism( Augustinian Philosophy), so I didn't have to. they are blind, carnal, unspiritual, arrogant, and love their academia/calvinistic doctrine over the true clear and simple reading of the scripture IN CONTEXT, remember calvinism and context are never together
@@63stratoman I didn't say that. Don't be silly. READ Ephesians silly putty presby.
Altar calls are so cringe
Because they are older and closer to the truth (Catholicism).
So, you're telling people to repent and turn to Christ, even though they can't? Don't they need regeneration before faith? And isn't faith irresistably given?
Faith comes by believing, and believing by hearing, and it's by believing that we're given new life so, it really is the man's responsibility to answer God's call of salvation.
You tell people to turn, but recognize that only the Elect will listen. God has always "moved first" and allowed for their hearts to be soft enough for the "seed" to be planted in them.
*Soli Deo Gloria.*
@@lausdeo4944 The elect are in Christ. When you're in Christ, you are the elected to what God has predestined for those chosen, in Christ. Any may turn to Christ, else they wouldn't be held responsible for their lack of turning.
@@ethanrichard4950 Mmmm... No. The Bible is clear that no man will listen without God softening his heart to begin with.
@@lausdeo4944 God needn't soften man's heart. God gave us free will. Through the fall, we now tend toward sin, but still are able to respond. Some men harden their own hearts. In that case, it'll be easier for us as Christians to reach people if God helps people to have humble hearts and minds, but generally, God has given revelation for a reason, that it might point us to our need of Christ.
Which verses?
Paul said. In 1 Cor 12:3 that no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. This is what Reformed Theology means by regeneration preceding faith. It takes the Holy Spirit to bring conviction, repentance and faith.
Altar calls are just an invention of American Evangelicals of the 19th century that have no historical nor biblical support and simply tend to turn conversion into a cheap show.
To become Christian you need to repent, believe in the Gospel, and get properly baptized with water in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Very simple. There is no other way.
And the Lord’s Supper is not a surrogate for baptism.
Sad to see how Protestants are totally confused about the basics.
This is from Matthew 3 (NKJV):
4 Now John himself was clothed in camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey.
5 Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him
6 and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,
9 and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.
10 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
Here are my questions:
1. Is it possible that the 2 criminals that were crucified with Jesus were baptized by John the Baptist?
2. Why did John the Baptist preach a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins (Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3), as well as with water unto repentance (Matthew 3:11) and not just repentance for the forgiveness of sins?
3. Were the Pharisees and Sadducees mentioned in Matthew 3:7 baptized with water by John the Baptist?
Any answers and additional comments would be appreciated.
@@raykidder906 I’ll try to respond:
1. Maybe. Scripture doesn’t say.
2. Because water had a symbolic meaning of spiritual cleansing for the Jews and was foreshadowing the true water baptism that Jesus would institute that would provide us with his Holy Spirit. Also being submerged in water and coming out of the water would symbolize our death to our own sinful self and rebirth into a new person committed to sin no more.
3. Very likely.
@@thejerichoconnection3473 Thanks for your response.
Some Christians claim that the story of the repentant thief who was crucified with Jesus means that baptism is unnecessary for salvation. If he was water baptized, then this teaching falls apart; right?
I do not disagree with your claim that water baptism has symbolism. I think it is important to believe it has a sacramental and supernatural effect. One is that it inaugurates a covenental relationship that is likened to an enrollment into things such as a reform school for juvenile delinquents, a drug rehabilitation program, and elementary school for the uneducated, or a correctional institution for sinners. It is NOT an act of spiritual pride, but more an act of spiritual humility. Romans 6:4 indicates that baptism is for those who are spiritually dead so that they will later walk in newness of life. If a person is saved prior to their reception of Trinitarian water baptism, then this becomes a case of burial of the living rather than the dead; right?
Some Christians claim that the Pharisees and Sadducees mentioned in Matthew 3:7 were NOT baptized with water by John the Baptist, as though they were too sinful and self righteous to receive this. This belief is likened to saying that people who get drunk frequently do not enroll in Alcoholic Anonymous because this will interfere with their love of alcohol. It is true that SOME of the Pharisees did NOT get baptized by John the Baptist (as per Luke 7:30), but Matthew 3:11 indicates that some of them DID receive this baptism.
@@raykidder906 agreed with all you said.
Only one thing: we don’t need to assume that the thief on the cross had been baptized by John to prove that water baptism is necessary for salvation. Whoever brings up the thief on the cross to try to prove that baptism is not necessary doesn’t understand the difference between old and new covenant. At that point, Jesus had not died yet: we are still under the OT covenant. The trinitarian water baptism as necessary for salvation kicks in the day of Pentecost. So the case of the thief on the cross is irrelevant for this discussion.
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I love the liturgy of Presbyterianism. However, I love the visible moving of the Holy Spirit in evangelical churches that are evangelistic. The Bible talks of numbers being saved all the time. Baptism is a celebration of that. Never, not once, was an infant baptized in the NT. The Presbyterian service is worshipful and that is wonderful, but it is dead. If the Spirit has moved they do their best to keep it a secret.
Covenantal theology explains infant baptism. Baptism replaces circumcision and households were baptized in the NT which would include infants.
Just because something isn't explicitly mentioned doesn't mean you can't draw a conclusion based from the rest of scripture. An example would be the word "Trinity" - it isn't in the Bible but it's an essential Christian doctrine drawn from various passages in scripture.
Here is the form from my reformed Church (Dutch).
Doctrine of Baptism
Beloved congregation of our Lord Jesus Christ:
The doctrine of holy baptism is summarized as follows:
First, we and our children are conceived and born in sin and are therefore by nature children of wrath, so that we cannot enter the kingdom of God unless we are born again. This is what the immersion in or sprinkling with water teaches us. It signifies the impurity of our souls, so that we may detest ourselves, humble ourselves before God, and seek our cleansing and salvation outside of ourselves.
Second, baptism signifies and seals to us the washing away of our sins through Jesus Christ. We are, therefore, baptized into the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
When we are baptized into the name of the Father, God the Father testifies and seals to us that he establishes an eternal covenant of grace with us. He adopts us for his children and heirs, and promises to provide us with all good and avert all evil or turn it to our benefit.
When we are baptized into the name of the Son, God the Son promises us that he washes us in his blood from all our sins and unites us with him in his death and resurrection. Thus we are freed from our sins and accounted righteous before God.
When we are baptized into the name of the Holy Spirit, God the Holy Spirit assures us by this sacrament that he will dwell in us and make us living members of Christ, imparting to us what we have in Christ, namely, the cleansing from our sins and the daily renewal of our lives, till we shall finally be presented without blemish among the assembly of God's elect in life eternal.
Third, since every covenant contains two parts, a promise and an obligation, we are, through baptism, called and obliged by the Lord to a new obedience. We are to cleave to this one God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, to trust him, and to love him with our whole heart, soul, and mind, and with all our strength. We must not love the world but put off our old nature and lead a God-fearing life. And if we sometimes through weakness fall into sins, we must not despair of God's mercy nor continue in sin, for baptism is a seal and trustworthy testimony that we have an eternal covenant with God.
Although our children do not understand all this, we may not therefore exclude them from baptism. Just as they share without their knowledge in the condemnation of Adam, so are they, without their knowledge, received into grace in Christ. For the Lord spoke to Abraham, the father of all believers, and thus also speaks to us and our children, saying, I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you (Gen 17:7). Peter also testifies to this when he says, For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself (Acts 2:39). Therefore, in the old dispensation God commanded that infants be circumcised. This circumcision was a seal of the covenant and of the righteousness of faith. Christ also took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them (Mk 10:16). In the new dispensation baptism has replaced circumcision. Therefore, infants must be baptized as heirs of the kingdom of God and of his covenant; and as they grow up, their parents have the duty to instruct them in these things.
In order that we may now administer this holy sacrament of God to his glory, for our comfort, and to the upbuilding of the congregation, let us call upon his holy name.
Hope this helps!
@@HouseofChains81 Your explanation from a Dutch Reformed perspective was very good and thorough. I thank you for that. However, it is based on the presupposition that baptism replaces circumcision in the NT. That is implicit as you said and doctrine should not be based on implicit teaching. Neither the words of Christ nor the Apostles teach this and if it were important they would not have left it up to interpretation. Circumcision was very different. It was a sign of a covenant promise to God's people and, of course, only male children were circumcised. What is the basis for female infant baptism? Baptism is a sign of the new covenant of Christ. It is not for a people but for believers - those who have be born again by God's Spirit. The comparison simply doesn't work. You also spoke of the efficacy of baptism regarding cleansing of sin in the present tense. The only thing present tense about baptism is its acknowledgement and proclamation of what has already taken place. It is a testimony and not a sacrament. We simply see it very differently. I understand the creedal basis for your convictions and respectfully disagree. I admire and respect the creeds and confessions in so far as they align with Scripture, but I am a sola scriptura believer and believe that to be what Jesus and Paul taught. I expect we would agree on the means of salvation, but differ on the method and theology of it. Thanks.
@@2wheelz3504 do you believe the NT explicitly teaches that women can take Communion?
@@mrhartley85 Yes, I do. The instructions in 1 Cor. are addressed to the believing church. You could as well have asked if the NT explicitly teaches that men can take Communion. Paul was not shy about expressing what women could or could not do in the church.
I think the visible moving of the Spirit you're talking about is often just emotion-fueled professions of faith.
I can't stand reformed doctrine. The Calvinistic caricature of God (calvigod) is less compassionate than I. Mathematical proof provided upon request. But you're onto something with alter calls. If we're praying, we both close our eyes and bow our heads. If you're talking to me, we're making eye contact. The preacher can, mid-service, pause or make a Gospel application to whatever text is preached upon, look people in the eye and say, "I invite you to trust the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior if you own yourself to be the sinner that the Bible says you are." No gimmicks. No 14 stanzas of Just as I am. No manipulation.
Your answer to why reformed people evangelize was true from what reformed people tell me, and completely unbiblical.
In what way?
@@jamestrotter3162 Obedience to a command only goes so far. The motivation is love - the love that Christ showed toward us and the love He has for the world. D. James Kennedy was a Presbyterian that got it right. But he is an exception.
@@2wheelz3504 So you mean it's not completely unbiblical, but rather incomplete? If that's the case, I definitely agree.
*Obeying God's commands are very important,* but...
_If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing._
@@lausdeo4944 Well said!
Notice no mention of the gospel, or Jesus! This is another gospel! Reformed is in error.