Cholesterol levels of Hadza hunter-gatherers (my cholesterol U-turn?)
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- Опубликовано: 14 окт 2024
- The Hadza have been found to have low levels of both LDL and total cholesterol. The tsimane also have low levels (and also low levels of HDL). These represent populations that avoid diseases of civilisation / chronic disease, and that includes atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease. I summarise the orthodox view of LDL in this video and wonder if there is robust enough evidence to challenge it. Let me know what you think in the comments.
I am claiming fair usage for the studies that I show and cite in this video:
Herman Pontzer et al, Hunter-gatherers as models in public health onlinelibrary....
Hillard Kaplan et al, Coronary atherosclerosis in indigenous South American Tsimane: a cross-sectional cohort study www.ncbi.nlm.n...
James H O'Keefe Jr et al, Optimal low-density lipoprotein is 50 to 70 mg/dl: Lower is better and physiologically normal www.sciencedir...)
Low-density lipoproteins cause atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease. 1. Evidence from genetic, epidemiologic, and clinical studies. A consensus statement from the European Atherosclerosis Society Consensus Panel www.ncbi.nlm.n...
Low-density lipoproteins cause atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease: pathophysiological, genetic, and therapeutic insights: a consensus statement from the European Atherosclerosis Society Consensus Panel www.ncbi.nlm.n...
Kevin Kip et al: Is LDL cholesterol associated with long- term mortality among primary prevention adults? A retrospective cohort study from a large healthcare system bmjopen.bmj.co...
(Figures reused in line with Creative Commons creativecommon...)
I think the other thing here Philip is that the professional risks for being a contrarian are high and industry/corporate players know that. The fact that the study is funded by pro drug corporate ‘researchers’ tells me everything I need to know. GLP1 for BMI, meds for high BP and lower LDL, metformin for blood sugar. The whole thing is a corporate sponsored gravy train. Academic research is broken.
Very good point!
Indeed, and that is really why the levels of those indigenous populations caught my attention, as opposed to the drug company funded research. Of course, if I'm trying to replicate the physiology of the Hadza and Tsimane, I won't be tinkering with the system using drugs :)
@@drphilipbosanquet I also believe it’s very wise to acknowledge the influence of individual ethnic ancestry / genetics when it comes to serum lipids. How many of my Norse, Irish and Dutch ancestors might have had high LDL…1000 years ago?!
You do know that these drugs were developed precisely because cholesterol was observed to be a risk factor and lowering it through diet and exercise significantly reduced cardiovascular events?
@@drphilipbosanquet To add to the conversation. The biggest risk for CVD by a very long way is diabetes. There is a NEJM study which puts LDL so far down on the list of risks is it hardly worth a mention. Big pharma stating pushers don’t state that life expectancy increase from taking statins is 3 days. The reversal of T2D (not management) is the biggest thing people can do by a very long way. LDL is an intentional sideshow in my view.
My first concern is you accepted that the authors have numerous conflicts of interest. Secondly, you cite one study.
I've been predominantly a meat eater all my life, now carnivore. I'm 64, never had a sick day at work (50+ years), I'm 5'10", weigh 164lbs and have a waist under 30". My blood pressure averages 105/68.
I have been prescribed statins a few years ago without even a blood test. I never even met the Doctor who signed the prescription!
What diet are you advocating now please? 🤔 (I think I know the route I'm taking but open to other people's ideas and suggestions).
Probably only a few tweaks from my previous diet video (ruclips.net/video/TUFJi2QtWMk/видео.html - basically 12+ hour fast overnight, 2-3 meals in the remaining with a mix of fibre, protein, carbs and fat, omnivorous (but I still do want to ponder more first). What I talked about re cholesterol in this video is not trying to give the answer, just stating that the ones I previously did do not hold up even against my own scrutiny in hindsight.
Low blood pressure, low glucose, normal BMI, no smoking, physical exercise….. and it is only the LDL that is the problem? You would need an experiment to control for all of the above and have a long term group one with high LDL and one with low LDL with all the other factors being the same. It would need to see that study.
See 'Carbohydrate Restriction-Induced Elevations in LDL-Cholesterol and Atherosclerosis: The KETO Trial' as that is the idea here. Would be very interesting to see longer term data (decades) if this continues.
@@drphilipbosanquetthat really is an agenda driven response by you and does not really acknowledge the breadth of implication in the original comment. Just supports that science and scientific research is not unbiased and is often agenda driven. Other scientists challenge the conclusion that ldl not only is causative but that other non drug modifiable markers may be as or far more causative. The relentless conventional medicine pushing a focus on drug modifiable ldl cholesterol has a fairly obvious motive and its sad that smart health professionals like the one in this video apply a lack of clear logic as does this video support what suits them. Pathetic…. Eg you u turn on the u/J cholesterol curve defies logic. If someone has a cholesterol of around 80 you say you aren’t going to tell them to increase it to the 150 research trlls us is thr sweet spot. Why not!! Why ignore this research which is well documented. The fact the native tribe has a lower cholesterol proves nothing healthy wise unless you compare it to an identical group with higher cholesterol
@@drphilipbosanquet it would for sure. I assume you are following what Dave Feldman is up to in this space. The fact that pre loading carbs can reduce LDL in the short term as much as a statin is fascinating.
Yes I am, following with interest.
I have LDL over 200, triglycerides below 70, but HDL 40 to 50. No diabetes, no smoking, no high blood pressure, exercise regularly, never had any symptoms of heart disease. Have been taking statins for over 20 years, calcium score 460. In your opinion, should I continue to take statins or stop taking them? now I am 52 years old.
Hunter-gatherers don't eat grains. They eat higher protein and fat from animal sources than anyone in a developed country. They are much more physically active. Their genes are unique. It's not a black and white subject. For those who are eating ancestrally it may just take their bodies much longer to heal and remember how to function optimally. Cholesterol has a huge role to play in healing.
You’re right to mention genetic adaptation. Who knows what my scandinavian / northern european ancestors’ lipids were?!
The 1st study cited does suggest the Hadza eat low fat because they catch very lean animals. That certainly made me think. It also talks about the variation in dependence on plants vs animals, as determined in part by latitude (inuits as an interesting example, but their cholesterol levels are shown in the 2nd paper cited as still low - probably hard to obtain accurate info, I've seen conflicting levels for them). Certainly not black and white I agree.
@@drphilipbosanquet 'Lean animals' doesn't mean there's no fat on them. Bone marrow, brain and kidney fat would all be utilised. Surveys I have found state that, worldwide, hunter-gatherer fat intake makes up 28-58% of their energy intake. Eating too much lean meat leads to an excess of protein or 'rabbit starvation'. So there's more to the story than just 'they consume lean animals'. This was explored extensively in the article 'Plant-Animal Subsistence Ratios and Macronutrient Energy Estimations in Worldwide Hunter-Gatherer Diets'.
I think they call that keto or carnivore.
Modern Hunter gatherers may not. But there aren't many such groups and they tend to live in marginal environments where grasses aren't abundant.. But it's clear that ancient hunter gatherers did.
People aged 40-50 with optimal health markers have only about a 5% chance of a major heart event in the next 10 years, even with high LDL. Risk calculators tend to overestimate. Traditional groups like the Maasai and Hadza have low heart disease rates, but they generally don’t live past 60. Their shorter lifespans, mainly due to infections, naturally limit how long they’re at risk for heart disease, making comparisons with modern populations-who live longer-tricky.
Do you think ALL THE CHEMICALS IN OUR FOOD AND WATER AND OTHER THINGS WE COME IN CONTACT WITH HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS AND OTHER ILLNESSES???
Interesting video, thanks!
I'm curious to hear your view on the LMHR study where individuals with sky high LDL were matched against an 'equally healthy' cohort with normal LDL levels.
Coronary artery plaque burden data from the study were recently published and showed minimal progression with no difference between the groups. If I remember correctly, the majority had no plaque at all.
I'm struggling to reconcile the findings in the context of the ESC consensus figure in this video at 7:41. Based on ESC, I would have expected a very different outcome.
Be great to hear what you think. A short video like this one would be amazing if not cheeky to ask!
I almost included a mention of the LMHRs in this video, since they really are the ones properly putting these consensus statements to the test. Are you thinking of 'Carbohydrate Restriction-Induced Elevations in LDL-Cholesterol and Atherosclerosis: The KETO Trial' ?
This is certainly very interesting, I would still want to see longer term outcomes I think (decades) which I'm would think they will be doing - and I certainly hope their arteries stay pristine!
@drphilipbosanquet Thanks Philip.
Yes, that's the paper. Agree, longer-term data will be key.
Im horrified to hear this. My levels were all average till i switched to completely natural wholefood diet and my TC doubled to 9.5 mmol and ldl to 6.8!!
My hdl went up to 2.3 and triglycerides stayed at 0.8. Shall i give up eating altogether?
I am 56 yr old female , 5 foot 5 and weigh 8 stones. Im also active and healthy.
Why not study the Maasai vs. the Hadza to compare their diets and health outcomes? The Maasai have a larger population, consuming a diet rich in meat, milk, and animal fat, showing relatively low cholesterol but high CAC scores, yet with a similar life expectancy and low cardiovascular morbidity. Both groups share key similarities, like low BMI and active lifestyles. The Hadza, on the other hand, are a small nomadic group of around 300 people who still follow a hunting and gathering lifestyle. Due to their small population and nomadic nature, accurate records of births and deaths may be difficult to obtain. Maybe they don't live long enough to develop atherosclerosis-how was this even evaluated?
Am I the only one to notice that these people have rather dark skin? Could it be that having dark skin walking under the tropical sun and low serum cholesterol levels are somehow connected?Sounds crazy? Maybe not so much if you realize that I live at 50 degrees north where I have to make my D3 for a few months of the year out of the cholesterol in my skin.Could it be that higher serum cholesterol could be helpful and even imperative in this effort?None of this is a concern for these beautiful black people whose genes did not have to adapt to living at 50N like mine. Just a thought.
I have LDL over 200, triglycerides below 70, but HDL 40 to 50. No diabetes, no smoking, no high blood pressure, exercise regularly, never had any symptoms of heart disease. Have been taking statins for over 20 years, calcium score 460. In your opinion, should I continue to take statins or stop taking them? now I am 52 years old.
On the chart at 2:02, the hunter gatherers are between 90 and 110. Only boars are down at 70! A recent study shows that about 100 is optimal and this chart shows that as well.
That chart is for total cholesterol though, not LDL. The first study shows Hadza with similar total at 115 (and 62 for LDL).
@@drphilipbosanquet Thanks
What does “Adjusted HR “ mean on the graph? What does moving from say 1.0 to 1.2 mean?
If lowering LDL is the answer the NNT (numbers needed to treat ) for statins don’t look that good apart from the side effects and everything else seems not totally proven to be effective even if general health improvements can be no bad thing.
You didn't remove the video, it was blanked out. I have read 'feed the Brain' this is another theory, be it supported by a lot of good evidence/data. All that matters to me is that the report that taking statins increases your life expectancy by 2 days, does not seem like much of a preventative.....
So what are you now suggesting. Statins for all? I eat nothing but meat , eggs and some above ground vegetables and my ldl has gone up to 4.4 from my previous 2.8 when I used to eat a standard high carb diet. So what are my choices? Drugs, high carb (high glucose, high insulin, high inflammation) or stick with my 4.4.
According to the studies cited, the Hadza and Tsimane eat plenty of carbs. Of course all unprocessed plus they are very active - with those two factors, carbohydrates should not be a problem.
Thanks for the reply but from all I’ve learnt over the last 3 years since having a positive cac score at 50 years of age (score 61) a higher carb diet is not the answer. I am living proof. I walk all day (landscaper) and have exercised my whole life. I’m the same weight now that I was in late high school (63kg). I followed the food pyramid for those 50 years. In fact my family always thought I was “health crazy”. But the proof is in the pudding. I should add that I have high Lp(a) - 254. (I have lowered this to 156 with 1000mg of niacin ). So yes I am an N of 1 but what you are now suggesting would put me back on the path to grow more plaque. I will take my chances with the higher LDL. For your info TC 7.2 HDL 2.3 triglycerides 0.6 as of last week. Crp 0.58. Who knows maybe I’m making it worse but sticking with the old pyramid is a guarantee of more plaque and probably an early death.
Hey doc I’m really looking forward to your reply to my above post.
I haven't really suggested anything in this video, but the Hadza have many other important factors e.g. high fibre intake, no artificial lighting/screens to interfere with circadian rhythm, minimal psychological stress, close knit communities, avoidance of pollution and chemicals etc. So many factors no doubt involved.
@@stevemc2626 Your TC is still high in low carb diet ? If yes then both diet (high carb low fat and high fat low carb) not work for you and that mean you have genetic that make your body produce high Cholesterol.
Brave of you to review this exceedingly confusing, complex issue that is still the source of huge division and disagreement…emphasised by the gulf between the “denialists” of the RUclips low-carb / keto / carnivore community and their “alarmist” (bitter) foes from the plant-based crowd!
@TriTr-gk8bo Keep going! Sounds like you’re on the right track.👍
There is no huge disagreement. International and national health authorities, international and national medical authorities, scientific panels all around the world have reviewed the evidence and come to the same conclusion. Then there is a small but highly vocal group of people active on social media who deny or ignore the bulk of the evidence. Instead, they rely on confounded epidemiological studies to justify their opinions.
@@tomgoff7887Who cares about corrupted studies?
@@tomgoff7887 Dare say you’re absolutely right, but the fact is that there is disagreement between those who cite different studies / interpretations to support their diverse nutritional choices.
@@stevelanghorn1407 There is disagreement on social media, sure. But I am not aware of any health authority or professional medical association anywhere in the world that promotes the denialism argument. Not even China or Iran or Cuba. If there was disagreement between such bodies, you'd be correct to call it huge but but social media and bar-room kerfuffles?
So they eat high fat and high protien
@@stevet5549 ya I’m sure clean water and antibiotics have zero role in that
According to the cited study they eat low fat and relatively high carbohydrate.
@@drphilipbosanquet thanks for clarifying
Thank you Dr. I have high ldl but I also have hypothyroidism.
Interesting!
Glad you think so :)
Very useful!
Glad to hear that
LDL is not a cholesterol. HDL is not a cholesterol. The cholesterol inside LDL and HDL are the same molecule. Same substance. In other words there are no “good” and “bad” cholesterol. As you know LDL and HDL are carriers of triglycerides, proteins and cholesterol. please stop talking about “LDL cholesterol”.
Jesus wept….. 🤦🏻♂️