Sunday Go Lessons - Videos on the Game of Go! Well, there are no tournaments nor championships in the country I live in (Australia). I am planning on either going to somewhere like Japan where there are plenty of tournaments, or, achieve 1 Don on 'The Best Place To Play Go Online'
AMAZING Coach!! Incredibly useful info and beginner tactics. Constructive way of letting the student play out full scenarios and showing why it should of not lasted as long and show when to give up certain scenarios. Really under appreciated video. Glad I found it!
Really enjoyed this video. I'm teaching someone to play Go soon, so it's good to see some strategies for that. One thing though: Why on earth do you rearrange the stones at the end? It's a 9X9 board, it's a perfect opportunity to make the student understand what territory actually *is*. Instead, you rearrange the board (which is just to make counting easier when you're counting 50+ points each), introducting another layer of abstraction. He clearly doesn't understand how or why you rearrange like that. I would just count the territory in place - it wouldn't take much longer.
@@ryangarvey8207 Yes, I agree that it can come later. In fact, those starting out in go could be given preliminary types of games, such as filling the liberties of a group to capture it, etc., as given in the chapter in teaching in Bruce Wilcox's first great book, "EZ-Go: Oriental Strategy in a Nutshell".
@@ryangarvey8207 As a newcomer, your observations are very welcome and significant for those of us who have played the game for years. Proper teaching of the game, including playing on a small board and playing modified types of games, is vital for newcomers to be excited and motivated to continue learning the game on their own. It these times of isolation we need more websites that provide newcomers with partners who can serve as mentors and friends, to provide the needed early inspiration.
9 years later and I’m starting to learn Go. Your videos help me out so much, thanks :) (I think you can really see the other players improvement from last game). Sticking with 9x9 for now, 19x19 looks scary and exhausting 😂
it oddly isn't when you try it. It's actually more like a very different game from the other two boards. It's more relaxing in a way, the pressure of each individual move isn't as great and strategy rather than reading is more important. Speaking as someone who started learning a couple of months ago. Obviously when you watch dans playing it seems more inscrutable, but against an equal player it's actually more fun.
this game exactly shows how i and my friends play. I was VERY cofused when i saw the first round. I am like, did i misunderstand the rules? Have we played go our entire life? No, we are just agressive :P
I recently got it in my head that I wanted to learn more than just the rules of go. So I went about looking for resources that I could watch and learn some strategy. Google gave me this. Thank you. I really enjoy watching a beginner game on a 9x9 and the discussion around it. I'm only on the second one, but I'll be looking for more of your videos next chance I get.
This is indeed the most instructive lesson i've watched so far ! 9x9 makes short games and beginners can easily watch the complete game from first territory hypotheses to final point count. Moreover teacher's advices are really great. Go on Sunday Go Lessons, I subscribe and hope to find some other videos like this during your classes.
This covers many 9x9 tactics except for tricking. An advanced player can "trick" a beginning player by making unrealistic moves that the beginner doesn't know how to counter. It is frequently possible for an advanced player to capture all the opponent's stones, because of the weaker player's inability to either defend, threaten, or invade properly. For example, on a 13x13 (or even a 19x19) board, a handicap of 13 black stones or more should guarantee a win for black, since black starts off surrounding all the territory on the board. But even in this situation, white can win starting with almost any second-line move or any diagonal or contact play, using strategies like connecting up to surround black and building white walls. White knows how to fight in several nearby areas in order to gain two eyes by surrounding black stones that have no hope of gaining two eyes. Or White can even win corners that have black stones at the 4,4 and 3,3 points. If beginners are alert, they can learn good defenses in response to such unreasonable killing strategies. A frequent hint during "tricking", if all else fails, is to play elsewhere to strengthen a corner or edge, so even if one area is lost, another is defended adequately.
at 15:50 white can be killed or at least reduced. it requires black to have a stone on f6 first and one error on white but it is doable and deceptively sneaky. b f8, f9, i7, i8, i6, f8, d9, (white error and h9 to kill) h9, c9 to reduce points by3.
I'm pretty sure they're ing stones, plastic with a metal core. They come with special containers and their own ruleset and counting method. (Look it up on sensei's library) Don't think they should be too expensive, but I have no clue where you might come by a set.
yeah, someone asked already, but just bumping this question. These stones look beautiful. What are they? Where'd you get them? Thanks for the vid! as others have said, this format is great. Really enjoyed it
Please forgive my ignorance as I am desperately trying to understand this game. But, at the 5:45 mark, while discussing what move black should take to stop the potential 'cutting', you removed the black stone and inserted a white stone which looks to me like white has played out of turn and is from this point on, white is one move ahead of black ie with no stones having been captured white has a one stone advantage when it should be the other way around. Is this correct or am I missing something?
So to demonstrate whether or not a move is really important it's helpful to imagine what would happen if your opponent got to play the move. That's it, it's not playing out the game, it's a "what if" scenario.
@@sundaygolessons Thanks for the reply. I get the 'what if' process. But it still looks like there was a black stone missing in the way that you demonstrated the 'what if' in this instance, causing a forced advantage to white. As it turns out, you conclude that the original move by black was the bester move anyway
@@tassie7325 You need to just look at it locally and not the whole board. Basically we're assuming "Black plays something else that doesn't affect this local shape" and we leave it as whatever because that's not what we're focusing on. We're focusing on whether or not it makes sense for Black to spend a move on defending the cutting point.
@@sundaygolessons Thanks. As I said originally I am desperately trying to understand the game but my analytical mind prefers to see something rather than assume.
I have a go app where I play with a computer on my android, and the computer ignores the atary rule whenever I play. Do you think it's in settings or the app is special.
Thank you for these nice examples of the game go; Can you explain why the game end and why its is not possible to gain points for white in our left upper corner. again thank you
White owns the corner because any invasion by black can be countered. And if white plays first, black can counter or ignore, so white's played stone reduces white's territory by one point.
Sorry to be back again, but what is the purpose of moving the stones around at the end to sort out the score? In the time it took you to rearrange the stones I could read the scores.
I somewhat agree even though I have been playing go for quite a few years. Can't see the point of moving stones which destroys the "picture" and introduces possibility of human error (deliberate or not).
so I'm still new to the game but would it of been even better on play 9 (5:15) to play on the 4,4 point in the lower left as it defends 2 different cuts?
Thanks for the video! Even as an 18k player this is very helpful. I have a question about your board: what are the dimensions of the lines; how far are they apart?
I don't know where you mean by "there", but I wonder if a 1-dan black could kill the bottom right white group by first containing it to the first line at the right end and then throwing in at the 4,1 point.
I'm a beginner myself so sorry if this won't make much sense but basically the game is over when you can't make any logical moves anymore and both players pass their turn, I'll use the video as an example, the game ended when it did because both black and white had no more possible "logical" moves to do, if white were to play in the top right side it would be very vulnerable and the territory itself wouldn't amount for many points, same would happen to black if it were to play in the top left side of the board. I hope this made a little bit of sense. Oh the game can also end when a player resigns.
Say I have a group of white stones cornered and surrounded but they still have liberties from gaps further back in whites territory, how to you determine if they're dead or holding territory? Is it simply when they have no liberties left?
they are dead if there is no reason to fight for them anymore. If you look at a group of stones and you see, in 5 turns the will captured, then you just leave them, your opponent will leave them aswell. They are now dead. Nobody cares about them anymore
If you are ever unsure whether a group is alive or dead, do two things: first, play it out (either in your imagination or for real); second, learn how to recognize living and dead groups by buying Go books entitled "life and death".
Thanks for these vids but in this game I'm struggling to see when a game is over. E.g. when this ended why could black not go again bottom right to keep reducing whites territory. Or why cant white just stick a stone in the middle of blacks top right territory... why is this 'over' this is my struggle with go.
If you don't know wether you can successfully invade a territory, just try it. You'll get a feeling for where you can and where you cannot make something with two eyes. As long as they're not suicidal moves, for each stone you invest, your enemy needs to answer with one of his own and therefore reduce his own territory, for a net local score of zero.
There's no way black could successfully invade bottom right. If black plays left of corner, then white plays left of that and gets a living shape. If black plays anywhere else, then white plays left of corner and gets a living shape. In both cases, black ends up with a dead stone, which is removed, and is a negative point for black, and white ends up with one less territory space, which is a negative point for white. Just like Miro said, they cancel each other out, so nothing is gained, and so black playing in bottom right is pointless. The same applies for white playing in top right.
I have become 4 kyu player with rating of 1400 learning the game by myself and playing online games but i really don't know how to improve my game anymore. Im also a chess player have 1800 elo points but im much more experienced on it.i wanna play go as i play chess. What do you recommend for me ?? (Sorry for English)
+draxwar3 play in real life. There is no computer program that can beat a 9 dan master. Go is also not only about strategy, attack and defense, it is also about aesthetics and exchange. Nothing beats playing face to face over green tea. To improve, look up a local club or go into a forum to find people near you to play with. Join a local championship or get a tutor. There are as many ways to proceed as there are opening moves in go.
When i wrote the former comment this was not the case, and AlphaGo is not available to the public. Also Lee Sedol isn't just a 9 professional dan, he is considered the worlds strongest player. I am still rooting for Lee.
A nice instructional presentation. Just one comment; it is considered quite rude and certainly not good form in Asia if you jiggle your stones all the time. No one does that.
These two videos were the most informative source for beginners I could find on the internet. You need to do more in this format!!
Yikak4 It helped me, but undoubtedly playgo.to/iwtg/en/ was the absolute best
@Sjuns... I think I love you
So true! Even a blind man can learn from this.
I have plenty more like this at www.sundaygolessons.com
@@sjuns5159 It's 2021, and those problems require Flash that is no longer supported.
It's sad that Go's not more popular. It's pretty intense.
A new wave is coming
Puppetmaster It's more popular than you think :P
Sunday Go Lessons - Videos on the Game of Go! Well, there are no tournaments nor championships in the country I live in (Australia). I am planning on either going to somewhere like Japan where there are plenty of tournaments, or, achieve 1 Don on 'The Best Place To Play Go Online'
Yes there are australian go championship. www.australiango.asn.au/Events.php
Puppetmaster It is popular, but not in the western world. It's popular in china, South Korea, Japan Etc. Chess is popular in the western world
"Alex, you make me so proud."
AMAZING Coach!! Incredibly useful info and beginner tactics. Constructive way of letting the student play out full scenarios and showing why it should of not lasted as long and show when to give up certain scenarios. Really under appreciated video. Glad I found it!
Please make more of these videos! I am learning a lot from them. ^_^
Also, I like the actual board and stones than the digital lessons.
This is the best series i have found! Please do more!
Thanks for the quality videos. I watched this one on the toilet and it helped me go.
But seriously. excellent stuff -- much the opposite of my pun.
Really enjoyed this video. I'm teaching someone to play Go soon, so it's good to see some strategies for that. One thing though: Why on earth do you rearrange the stones at the end? It's a 9X9 board, it's a perfect opportunity to make the student understand what territory actually *is*. Instead, you rearrange the board (which is just to make counting easier when you're counting 50+ points each), introducting another layer of abstraction. He clearly doesn't understand how or why you rearrange like that. I would just count the territory in place - it wouldn't take much longer.
Your point is true, however students should also learn rearranging the stones for scoring precisely because it makes scoring quicker on larger boards.
@@david203 i feel like that should come later
@@ryangarvey8207 Yes, I agree that it can come later. In fact, those starting out in go could be given preliminary types of games, such as filling the liberties of a group to capture it, etc., as given in the chapter in teaching in Bruce Wilcox's first great book, "EZ-Go: Oriental Strategy in a Nutshell".
@@david203 imma be honest i learned go a few days ago so I'm just gonna trust that you are correct.
@@ryangarvey8207 As a newcomer, your observations are very welcome and significant for those of us who have played the game for years. Proper teaching of the game, including playing on a small board and playing modified types of games, is vital for newcomers to be excited and motivated to continue learning the game on their own. It these times of isolation we need more websites that provide newcomers with partners who can serve as mentors and friends, to provide the needed early inspiration.
These videos taught me a lot. And I am a 4kyu player. They helped me learn how to properly teach beginners.
This is bloody great, exactly what I was looking for
9 years later and I’m starting to learn Go. Your videos help me out so much, thanks :)
(I think you can really see the other players improvement from last game). Sticking with 9x9 for now, 19x19 looks scary and exhausting 😂
it oddly isn't when you try it. It's actually more like a very different game from the other two boards. It's more relaxing in a way, the pressure of each individual move isn't as great and strategy rather than reading is more important. Speaking as someone who started learning a couple of months ago. Obviously when you watch dans playing it seems more inscrutable, but against an equal player it's actually more fun.
You, sir, are an excellent teacher! Never has go made more sense or seemed as fun to me!
Best tutorial i have ever seen, i learnt go by playing a puzzle app but words and demonstration is essential
this game exactly shows how i and my friends play. I was VERY cofused when i saw the first round. I am like, did i misunderstand the rules? Have we played go our entire life? No, we are just agressive :P
you're a great teacher. he got so much better in such a short time. i can't believe it. wish my progress was that fast.
My stepfather enjoys the game, I would like to learn so I can play with him. Thanks for the lesson!
More of these please!
Thanks for this because as a beginer followinng your explanation in small board is easy
Please make more videos. These are the best tutorials on the web. Big fan!
Hi! Actually I did. If you go to sundaygolessons.com, you can see more of my videos :P
as for me, You teach very well and i do hope you'll make more videos for beginners. Best
Your commentary is very useful for me. Thanks for this great video :)
I recently got it in my head that I wanted to learn more than just the rules of go. So I went about looking for resources that I could watch and learn some strategy. Google gave me this. Thank you. I really enjoy watching a beginner game on a 9x9 and the discussion around it. I'm only on the second one, but I'll be looking for more of your videos next chance I get.
These explanations are just perfect. Thanks.
I like your lessons very much. Educational yet fun
Great, greeting from Brazil
Another perfect video with 9x9 basics. Cheers
This is indeed the most instructive lesson i've watched so far ! 9x9 makes short games and beginners can easily watch the complete game from first territory hypotheses to final point count. Moreover teacher's advices are really great. Go on Sunday Go Lessons, I subscribe and hope to find some other videos like this during your classes.
finally, videos worth watching on youtube,thank you , and keep up the good work
btw, pretty stones, sassy conversation; this has been a fabulous game of go :)
such a good explanation about sente. And the interplay here is great. I love analysis and learning going on here. really nicely done.
This (and Part 1) is VERY helpful, thanks!
You guys are great, thanks for these
No u rock, no u rock, no u rock. :)
Amazing videos dude, heared about go years ago only now started playing it.
Love these videos. Know that it is them that really sparked my interest in the game. Thanks!
you are an excellent go teacher
This covers many 9x9 tactics except for tricking. An advanced player can "trick" a beginning player by making unrealistic moves that the beginner doesn't know how to counter. It is frequently possible for an advanced player to capture all the opponent's stones, because of the weaker player's inability to either defend, threaten, or invade properly. For example, on a 13x13 (or even a 19x19) board, a handicap of 13 black stones or more should guarantee a win for black, since black starts off surrounding all the territory on the board. But even in this situation, white can win starting with almost any second-line move or any diagonal or contact play, using strategies like connecting up to surround black and building white walls. White knows how to fight in several nearby areas in order to gain two eyes by surrounding black stones that have no hope of gaining two eyes. Or White can even win corners that have black stones at the 4,4 and 3,3 points. If beginners are alert, they can learn good defenses in response to such unreasonable killing strategies. A frequent hint during "tricking", if all else fails, is to play elsewhere to strengthen a corner or edge, so even if one area is lost, another is defended adequately.
Where can I get a set of the stones you're using? It's so good to see you both going through games on 9x9. Great videos. You really should do more.
at 19:30, can't Black play at the 3-4 point to threaten a cut, forcing W to defend, THEN play on the bottom at 4-1 ? That seems like an extra point?
That was exactly what I thought too
also at 13:40 black to e3. chews up a white liberty if white responds and captres stones at e1,2,f1 if white doesn't notice.
Very nice!!! I learned a lot!!!
very helpful video
Great video! Very useful for beginners! Thanks for your work ^_^
at 15:50 white can be killed or at least reduced. it requires black to have a stone on f6 first and one error on white but it is doable and deceptively sneaky. b f8, f9, i7, i8, i6, f8, d9, (white error and h9 to kill) h9, c9 to reduce points by3.
Great video!
this is exactly what i need it! thanks!
A explanation why the game ends would be interesting
great vid! Realy Helpfull
Thanks for the vid!
thanks that was incredible
Those stones sound and look amazing, but i bet theyre pricey xD
I'm pretty sure they're ing stones, plastic with a metal core. They come with special containers and their own ruleset and counting method. (Look it up on sensei's library) Don't think they should be too expensive, but I have no clue where you might come by a set.
Sjuns any idea the brand or what site they could be sold on? I love the noise they make
more of this please! D:
Still can’t beat the computer but after watch this I at least got some territory this time
yeah, someone asked already, but just bumping this question. These stones look beautiful. What are they? Where'd you get them? Thanks for the vid! as others have said, this format is great. Really enjoyed it
Please forgive my ignorance as I am desperately trying to understand this game. But, at the 5:45 mark, while discussing what move black should take to stop the potential 'cutting', you removed the black stone and inserted a white stone which looks to me like white has played out of turn and is from this point on, white is one move ahead of black ie with no stones having been captured white has a one stone advantage when it should be the other way around.
Is this correct or am I missing something?
So to demonstrate whether or not a move is really important it's helpful to imagine what would happen if your opponent got to play the move. That's it, it's not playing out the game, it's a "what if" scenario.
@@sundaygolessons
Thanks for the reply.
I get the 'what if' process. But it still looks like there was a black stone missing in the way that you demonstrated the 'what if' in this instance, causing a forced advantage to white. As it turns out, you conclude that the original move by black was the bester move anyway
@@tassie7325 You need to just look at it locally and not the whole board. Basically we're assuming "Black plays something else that doesn't affect this local shape" and we leave it as whatever because that's not what we're focusing on. We're focusing on whether or not it makes sense for Black to spend a move on defending the cutting point.
@@sundaygolessons
Thanks. As I said originally I am desperately trying to understand the game but my analytical mind prefers to see something rather than assume.
I have a go app where I play with a computer on my android, and the computer ignores the atary rule whenever I play. Do you think it's in settings or the app is special.
the black guy is very good player
Now I'm confused you mean the guy with the black skin or the one with black pieces lol?
@@sanjuro_493 the african american player uses some very advanced moves i play go as hobby and he is doing top rank players moves
@@Serjohn yeah i figured, he's also Such a good teacher
Where could I purchase a good set (board and pieces) similar to the one you're using in this video? Thanks!
Echo_81 u can probably find a godd board with stones on amazon
Nice instruction. How do you play this opening when black plays right next to your piece on move 2 how do you react?
Thank you for these nice examples of the game go; Can you explain why the game end and why its is not possible to gain points for white in our left upper corner.
again thank you
White already owns upper left corner.
White owns the corner because any invasion by black can be countered. And if white plays first, black can counter or ignore, so white's played stone reduces white's territory by one point.
Sorry to be back again, but what is the purpose of moving the stones around at the end to sort out the score? In the time it took you to rearrange the stones I could read the scores.
I somewhat agree even though I have been playing go for quite a few years. Can't see the point of moving stones which destroys the "picture" and introduces possibility of human error (deliberate or not).
Love these explanations. But what if one side provoked even more fighting? Can there be three areas of territory at the end? Four? More?
It can.
@@Urakarenn You say this with certainty. Please reference some published games that do this, and thanks.
What the name of the chinese genius is? Or even better would be a link where I can read about him.
so I'm still new to the game but would it of been even better on play 9 (5:15) to play on the 4,4 point in the lower left as it defends 2 different cuts?
fourth black move should have been d2. would have been able to capture the store, create 2 eyes and cut off white all in one go.
Thanks for the video! Even as an 18k player this is very helpful. I have a question about your board: what are the dimensions of the lines; how far are they apart?
tonbonthemon You know, that's a good question. I think it depends on the board. I never thought about that, I'll look into it!
He did not look into it
@@mr.fluffypantz4150 Hahaha.
More please?!!
nice :)
Why don’t liberties count diagonally
It is a Go rule, just like the rules in chess. Go has fewer rules, but more complex patterns and interactions of pieces than chess.
If so capturing a stone would be extremly difficult. This way the game is well balanced between attaching stones and attacking techniques.
What kind of stones are those?
who won in the end?
white won.
Is this mentos?
9x9 is a good beginner board?
At 16:15, can you explain why 1dan players will scream at you? Is it because they can play atari there?
I don't know where you mean by "there", but I wonder if a 1-dan black could kill the bottom right white group by first containing it to the first line at the right end and then throwing in at the 4,1 point.
I just can’t for the life of me understand the end game of Go. How can you tell it’s over?
I'm a beginner myself so sorry if this won't make much sense but basically the game is over when you can't make any logical moves anymore and both players pass their turn, I'll use the video as an example, the game ended when it did because both black and white had no more possible "logical" moves to do, if white were to play in the top right side it would be very vulnerable and the territory itself wouldn't amount for many points, same would happen to black if it were to play in the top left side of the board. I hope this made a little bit of sense.
Oh the game can also end when a player resigns.
They both decided to end because they realized that if they kept playing, it wouldn't change the final score.
But even with all the help, black lost, even without komi. This is what happens to me. White knows a lot more than he is saying.
Do you help anyone with this kinda stuff? kinda new
Say I have a group of white stones cornered and surrounded but they still have liberties from gaps further back in whites territory, how to you determine if they're dead or holding territory? Is it simply when they have no liberties left?
they are dead if there is no reason to fight for them anymore. If you look at a group of stones and you see, in 5 turns the will captured, then you just leave them, your opponent will leave them aswell. They are now dead. Nobody cares about them anymore
If you are ever unsure whether a group is alive or dead, do two things: first, play it out (either in your imagination or for real); second, learn how to recognize living and dead groups by buying Go books entitled "life and death".
About 2:23 Can't white just invade the corner in black's territory? I'm also beginner, but I think white can live.
Itachihun14 Sure, but the video gets way too complicated for beginners. Try to keep your game simple :P
Need a stone id
I still lose every match lol
Thanks for these vids but in this game I'm struggling to see when a game is over. E.g. when this ended why could black not go again bottom right to keep reducing whites territory. Or why cant white just stick a stone in the middle of blacks top right territory... why is this 'over' this is my struggle with go.
If you don't know wether you can successfully invade a territory, just try it. You'll get a feeling for where you can and where you cannot make something with two eyes. As long as they're not suicidal moves, for each stone you invest, your enemy needs to answer with one of his own and therefore reduce his own territory, for a net local score of zero.
There's no way black could successfully invade bottom right. If black plays left of corner, then white plays left of that and gets a living shape. If black plays anywhere else, then white plays left of corner and gets a living shape. In both cases, black ends up with a dead stone, which is removed, and is a negative point for black, and white ends up with one less territory space, which is a negative point for white. Just like Miro said, they cancel each other out, so nothing is gained, and so black playing in bottom right is pointless. The same applies for white playing in top right.
were did you get go containers like that?
Billy Himself China.
I have become 4 kyu player with rating of 1400 learning the game by myself and playing online games but i really don't know how to improve my game anymore. Im also a chess player have 1800 elo points but im much more experienced on it.i wanna play go as i play chess. What do you recommend for me ?? (Sorry for English)
+draxwar3 play in real life. There is no computer program that can beat a 9 dan master. Go is also not only about strategy, attack and defense, it is also about aesthetics and exchange. Nothing beats playing face to face over green tea. To improve, look up a local club or go into a forum to find people near you to play with. Join a local championship or get a tutor. There are as many ways to proceed as there are opening moves in go.
+Snubbinan3000 There is a computer program currently beating a 9 dan master. Look up AlphaGo currently 2-0 against a master in a best of 5 series
When i wrote the former comment this was not the case, and AlphaGo is not available to the public. Also Lee Sedol isn't just a 9 professional dan, he is considered the worlds strongest player. I am still rooting for Lee.
+Snubbinan3000 at least he managed to win one of those five, probably the last time a human beat alphaGo
@@mrmagicBOBdude But not practical: I believe that AlphaGo is not available on home devices.
This is not like chess. I just went from best player of all the people I know to a miserable piece of incompetence.
"What I'm going to do is fight"
Just gets rid of the pieces
good vid. but please stop playing with your stones between points
切られるからあんまりよくないですよ。
hard to watch
Why so? Explain and someone will help.
My OCD can't watch these guys playing. All of the pieces are off center.
You're just not seeing the hidden symmetries in Go games. The symmetries are intense and gives the game its inner structure.
Who is teaching who..so funny. Sorry but u gotta find better teacher. Nothing personal tho
Must disagree: the teaching is fine, and the student is asked to demonstrate his knowledge.
A nice instructional presentation. Just one comment; it is considered quite rude and certainly not good form in Asia if you jiggle your stones all the time. No one does that.