And that is sad, cause she saw what love can do. It destroyed her mother and as A little girl the take away was to never love anyone that much cause the pain love causes can destroy you. Which is sad. If her mother never got lobotomized she would not have had that ' lesson' instilled into her throughout her life and she may have had a better marriage, and a better relationship with her son.
She saw her mother love her son. This resulted in her becoming mad with grief and getting lobotomized, turning her into a monotone (eventually catatonic) vegetable. She tried to love a DOLL, the doll is destroyed because, according to her father, she infected it with her sickness. And finally, she tried to love Butterscotch, but he let her down by blaming her for his failure as a writer (when in reality he was had no talent, was delusional, and it was just a pipe dream ), yelled at her when she couldn’t get the baby to stop crying, and just acted like an ass in general and by refusing to take a well paying job for her father. At that point, she had no love left in her for poor BoJack, just trauma and bitterness as a result from it.
Cheap Cooking Channel exactly. Honey was a perfect mother. Even if she had some stariotyps like making Beatrice not eat icecream because she will get fat and unatractive... witch is actually not a bad thing to force kids to do tbh. She raised a perfectly good son and I would like to think Beatrice could have done the same if it wasn't for her fathers influence.
Jason Allcreator I’m not siding with Joseph I think what he did was aweful but I understand where he was coming from. And yeah Bea was a result of her upbringing just like BoJack. And none of what happened to her is an excuse to take it out on her son. I do not have poor judgement I realized that what Joseph did in HIS eyes was the best thing, he was just either impulsive or callous while he did so. When a child caught scarlet fever their belongings would have to be burned, the problem is that Joseph did it so callously. You also shouldn’t just shift all the blame onto Joseph for how Bea’s life ended up, like what Todd said “You are all that is wrong with you” It wasn’t Crackerjack dying, it wasn’t her moms lobotomy, it wasn’t her abusive dad, it wasn’t that she went with the wrong guy, it’s her. She chose to abuse BoJack
"Beatrice... promise me you'll never love anyone as much as I loved Crackerjack." "I promise! I won't..." Well now I see why Beatrice never treated Bojack with any love. Too afraid to get too attached to her own son. Afraid of the sorrow she'll face if she loves and loses Bojack. Afraid of becoming a shell of her former self, like her mom, in the process. But either way, she still became that shell.
Latioswar R It had nothing to do with intelligence. Her lobotomized mother told her that at a very young age, she witnessed first hand what Love did to her and was terrified she didn’t want that for herself. So she wasn’t being ignorant, she was traumatized, she was afraid.
What's really disturbing is how she says "like I 'loved' Crackerjack", not 'love'. She can't even feel love for her son anymore, like it was scooped out of her.
Every time I watched or hear a story as awful and cruel as this. This would sound child like, but my tummy just sink awfully deep and hurts till I can't breath.
For anyone wondering, yes this is absolutely a thing that people did to family members with issues back in the 1940s. Several thousand US soldiers were given lobotomies after developing (what we now know was) PTSD after coming home from WW2. In the 1950s one boy was given a lobotomy at the request of his stepmother because she didn't like him and thought it would make him easier to handle So as horrific as this scene is, it's not made up, this sort of thing absolutely happened
Yes, and there were not many options, mental illnesses were little understood for their treatment at that time. Before it was a lobotomy or it was a madhouse, which were places that seemed more like prisons, where torture was sometimes practiced.
@@ausername1761 They were in some ways, most they were not. Lobotomies were certainly brutal but not exactly common, only 50,000 were ever performed, this may seem like a lot but considering the US population of 134 million during 1945, well, it wasn’t that common.
@@nikolaiaramov4851 I keep seeing you in comments saying it wasn’t that common and even if it wasn’t, that’s still 50,000 people. That’s still way too many people for me.
This moment was hard to watch at first. Thats what happened to my grandmother. She wanted a divorce and was declared hysterical. The things they could do back in the day...
Damn. No wonder women would have much rather to have killed themselves or chance prison by killing their spouses back then. The idea of that happening for simply wanting out makes that worse.
@@natascha2983 "I have half a mind" is usually followed by an action that the speaker wants to do. For example, "I have half a mind to eat all the cake" or "I have half a mind to leave this place", meaning that the person wants to do something but is holding back for whatever reason. "I have half a mind" is also ironic as a lobotomy is a surgical procedure in which parts of the brain are severed: the patient only has "half a mind". In this scene, Honey started saying "why, I have half a mind..." but couldn't finish the sentence, presumably due to the lobotomy affecting her logical thought process. This statement is not actually meant to be a joke, but rather unintended verbal irony.
natylee knowing before the lobotomy and while their son was alive, Beatrice says, “I have half a mind to kiss you”, to Joesph. She was trying to say the same thing to Beatrice, but she stopped half way because of the lobotomy that left her with, “half a mind”.
For the time, it was the lobotomy or it was a madhouse, many men did not bother and threw their wives to the street. Madhouses were horrible places where patients were commonly tortured, so it was the best thing to do to fix this.
@@ridler_ns6558 fix what? This woman didnt have mental issues. She was griefing. Her son died. It was possibly the lesser of two evils but it fixed nothing. This is why lobotomies arent a thing anymore, because they were never capable of fixing a person.
@@cryingOnions Even the detectiln of mental illnes was precary. She almost kill her son, and shows a lot of desesperation. The dad do the best thing he could do. Another husbands let his wifes abandoned in the streets, but he keep his wife and mantain her. In that time the psicology was not progress so much.
@@ridler_ns6558 she did not kill her son though? He went to war. He had no choice but to go to war. The dad simply did not want to deal with his wife's feelings so he got rid of them. Simple as that. She was grieving. That is what people do when they lose a loved one. He did not want to deal so he got rid of her feelings. Whether that was what you did back then and whether its better (arguable) than throwing her on the streets, it did not fix the problem. Getting rid of feelings never fixed the problem and that is exactly what is wrong with lobotomies. They don't cure you from having nightmares, pain or fright, you still have them, you just stop caring. A lobotomy stops you from having emotions and feelings on things, it doesn't stop the underlying issue.
Joseph Sugarman is evidence that evil isn't always obvious. Even a seemingly nice, upstanding man, which is what he seemed to be at the start of the episode, can be capable of truly horrifying acts of cruelty for the sake of convenience. I've heard it said that he thought he was helping, but I don't buy that. He didn't want to be embarrassed by an unpredictable wife, so he robbed her of her personality and consigned her to waking death. All for convenience. To me, the most chilling moment in this season is a throwaway bit where Beatrice is arguing with Butterscotch, says something like "my father understood what marriage was!", and then the show cuts to a brief flashback of Joseph shaking and screaming at his lobotomised wife, while young Beatrice watches through a doorway. Holy shit, Bojack Horseman went to some deep, dark places this season...
Jack Heslop No I believe he genuinely thought he was helping. He's a decent man. . . for the times this is set in. From what I've gathered things like lobotomy and burning things that sick people been around was considered to be fine back then. Now we think those things are fucked up but back then people didn't think that. Now I'm saying this because it's apparent he thinks this is for the best. He's not trying to be malicious like Butterscotch it's just that with modern thinking at the time he thought this was helping. Fucked us as it is I don't think he's evil. Like how Beatrice isn't evil or BoJack either. They're a product of their environment and it's clear he is too. They're terrible people sure but not terrible for no reason. Seems yo be a trend for the family.
I take your point, but I can't bring myself to view the character that way. The culture he was raised in certainly made it easier for him to have his wife lobotomised and probably convince himself that he was doing it for her benefit, but I think his ultimate motive was convenience. Even men of the time didn't tend to have their wives lobotomised because they were grieving too much; I'd wager that a lot of the time there would have had to have been long-term and deeply rooted mental health issues, or at least a significant stay in a psychiatric facility, for whatever reason. But a man as rich and corrupt as Joseph Sugarman would have been all too happy to use his wealth and influence to get a quickie operation. In the same way, he bullied his daughter and used her as a business commodity, which again may have been enabled by the culture at the time but wasn't exactly encouraged. I think his ability to do the things that he did is a product of his time, but that he himself is still a monster.
She was going to kill herself and/or his daughter. In the 1950s people actually thought this was a totally legit treatment. And as much as he is an ass he in the end seemingly forgave Beatrice for getting knocked up by a no good loser by giving said loser a job.
I wonder if, like if they really wanted to, the writers could make us understand and sympathize with Joseph Sugarman the way they did with Bojack (who is a really crappy guy, seriously) and more recently Beatrice (who up 'til this season everyone just kinda assumed was a monster, and actually totally is, but... damn).
Yeah, you have a point about the car crash that could have killed both her and Beatrice. But I think "not letting her drive and getting her to stay in hospital for a while" was a better option than "fucking with her brain". Also, giving Butterscotch a job was, I assumed, just his way of keeping his daughter out of his life. If she's well-fed and comfortable she won't be an embarrassment to him, the poor daughter who lives in the ghetto. But that's just me.
Did it? Because I bet if we ever got information about his past, we'd see yet more disturbing stuff that twisted people. Maybe his older sister was a raging alcoholic who beat him up. And that is why he is so incapable of dealing with women having emotions. That wouldn't justify anything, but would show that the poison goes even further back.
Despite Beatrice’s treatment of Bojack I still can’t help but feel sorry for her. Seriously, how did the writers manage to make me feel sympathy for the most despicable fictional character in existence?
This is the reality of things though. You might have a person in your life that has done terrible things to you, but they may act the way they do because of their past, and you might feel sympathy for them. You can still dislike them-even hate them! But you can also understand them. There is no black and white in people's souls.
This scene makes my blood turn cold. Even after all the darkness which this show has ventured into, I think this moment of a little girl sobbing into her lobotomized mother's lap is the most horrific image that this show has yet produced.
The fact that there is a possibility no one will ever know the details of Beatrice and her mother's story, because there's no one around who's capable of telling it, is so mind-boggling to me. Even if Beatrice was all there, with all her memories, there is no way in hell she would ever communicate the full extent of her trauma to anyone. And that's just... so sad and terrifying to me.
I have the same situation with my mother. She's not as mean as Beatrice is but she is a victim of abuse and trauma from her childhood that I've only heard a little bit about from my brother. She will never tell me the extent of it.
This is the way it is for a lot of traumatised people. None of these stories ever get told because the people who could tell them are unable to express the extent of it, which is also why it's hard for abuse victims to defend themselves in court or why it can be hard to talk with mental health services. People that aren't traumatised just can't imagine it.
Even then, at that point in her life, she could barely remember it. Remember that episode that focused on her past? There were glitches everywhere because she could barely remember it.
That's one of the unfortunate aspects of life. Many stories go untold. People die tragically before they've resolved the issues in them. Left things unsaid and unfinished.
@sejsjejeusu ehejdhdj "People like to invent monsters and monstrosities. Then they seem less monstrous themselves. When they get blind-drunk, cheat, steal, beat their wives, starve an old woman, when they kill a trapped fox with an axe or riddle the last existing unicorn with arrows, they like to think that the Bane entering cottages at daybreak is more monstrous than they are. They feel better then. They find it easier to live." Geralt of Rivia, The Last Wish.
He was a good man, before mental illnesses did not have much treatment, so it was this or it was a madhouse that at the time were horrible places where patients were often tortured. So he did the most understandable act for his time, when many would have left his wife on the street or abandoned her in a madhouse, he decided to continue supporting her. Also yelling at your wife is not abuse, it is a simple couple discussion.
@sejsjejeusu ehejdhdj that divorce rate was only during the period of divorces becoming less legally complicated, meaning all the unhappy married couples finally had a chance to break up, then it stabilized further later on I'm not even gonna dignify the second "point" you make with a response.
@@ridler_ns6558 Can you take your ignorant ramblings somewhere else, please? A "discussion" should not have to include yelling; if there is, and that wasn't the intention, there needs to be an apology. Please shut your mouth and stop minimizing abuse and speaking over victims. Christ.
"Honey Sugarman, how did such a sweet face end up with such a smart mouth?" "I don't know, but I have half a mind to kiss you with that smart mouth." "Well that half you can keep!" welp. looks like I won't be needing any sleep tonight.
i legit cried when bojack explained to his mother at the end of the season where they were. she finally recognices him and asks him where they are and he lies.
The worst part is that even in her sentience she still lied to herself. When Bojack asked if she could taste the ice cream. She looked uneasy & said yes.
I mean, I really would have taken her to a better nursing home. She was unwell. Even after what she did to Bojack's sister she probably had no idea what was going on or what she was doing. I hope he took her to a better place after that.
Rose Strife14 It really threw me that Beatrice drugged her. I had no idea amphetamines were used for stuff like diet pills and appetite suppression before this show. And Beatrice took them herself because even her loving mother told her she should keep slim. Bojack’s mom really had so much stacked against her, it’s no wonder she went for a life that was miserable but comfortable in the end.
@@zonelee2652 I'm just now realizing that Beatrice never had ice cream, because her mom said it wasn't a 'girl snack'. she couldn't taste it if she wanted to.
This has to be one of the most well-written and thought provoking shows to ever be made. I'm sure most people would have felt the show to be a little meh in the beginning, but it just gets better and better. This show speaks to humans on a very high level, striking elements from mental health to our very existence on this planet. Life's cruel and by the words of Todd Chavez, "the only way out is through". The show is an ineffable rollercoaster of emotions. I can't express how much I've come to love this show. Dark humour at it's best. What a beautiful masterpiece!
I love how they gave more backstory to Beatrice. It shows how hard her early childhood was, much like Bojack's. I feel sorry for her somewhat after seeing it.
The sugarman family definitely turned out to be quite the interesting nesting dolls of self-abasement. We see Beatrice's oppressive upbringing where she does rebel against her given role as a Sugarman daughter where she can, but most of the damage has already been done by her mother- obsessing over appearance as a child and perceiving little indulgences like ice cream and pancakes as a taboo. Although, her own mother was raised that way and had a husband that'd run out on her when she wasn't capable of being anything more than a trophy wife. It explains the way she then treats Bojack and I want to feel for her, but instead of giving up Bojack while he was still young and she was miserable, she berates him to remain detached. We at least see Bojack try to deter himself from his mother's cruel habits but he still gives into self-destructive tendencies and brings down anyone that's around him. He needs to learn to get over himself and finally seek help. I'm not entirely sure, though, if that's in his realm of capabilities right now. And then there's Hollyhock...
It's just crazy how the events which we grow up witnessing as children, shape us or rather screw us up completely as adults. Right from Beatrice's refusal to abort her unborn child, to her raising Bojack but nevertheless, showing a serious lack of empathy and love towards him, we understand that the cruel, scarring things she had to see and endure as a child , led her to become the most hated character on the show up to season 3. The backstory definitely cleared some things up a bit. To top it off, Bojack's subtle change of heart is much appreciated. When Beatrice asks, "Bojack, is that you?", I couldn't help but admire the way he sat down to put before her, a rosy picture of a happier time, when she once lived with her happy family in Michigan, by the lake. And then the part about the ice-cream- my heart just melted :'(
Notice, how on 0:54 Beatrice's voice breaks a little and she sounds like an older version of herself, as if emphasizing that this is the moment that marked the beginning of her transformation to the person she eventually became.
I think the most fucked up part is where she says "why i have half a mind..." cus we're expecting her to finish the sentence with something but that's it.. she just has half a mind...
I think it also works as her telling Beatrice why it happened in the first place. She loved Crackerjack so much that when she died she couldn't handle herself anymore, and Joseph decided to get her lobotimized. Like she's saying "(that's) why I have half a mind"
And with the optimistic tone, which is beautiful right there, evne though if being truthfully about her monotone and non caring persona now, should have kept it monotone.. But that small optimism, in the darkest of moments. I find it.. Beautiful.. But extremely sad. This show is amazing.
You just made me realize that her line of "what it's like to lose a mother" had another layer of significance...bojack lost beatrice to her dementia before death, just like beatrice lost Honey to her lobotomy
@@whiskeyfarbrorn on the other hand, Beatrice could have had a chance to know Corban better and sooner, as the two are similar. Corban is a decent man and I think they could've been a great couple helping eachother build themselves up after the abuse from their fathers
Yeah I agree with DrawnWithLove, If Beatrice hadn't been traumatized out of ever being loving or vulnerable by her mom's request, she might have been more interested in continuing things with Corbon. If she wasn't so spiteful towards her father and had an older brother and a mom to turn to during her "angsty teenage years" she may not have wanted to rebel so badly that she'd drive off with Butterscotch. If she did have sex with him, maybe she'd have gotten the abortion (if her mother and brother were there when she lost her baby doll, it might not have scarred her so badly). There is the possible timeline where Butterscotch would get her pregnant but Beatrice would have enough self-respect not to get hitched with him and perhaps Corbon would even agree to raise the baby with her. Bojack would've had much better parents in that scenario.
It's so upsetting to think how many women were treated this way back then. My great grandmother got shock treatments when she got depressed from her father dying.
I think a good sign of it is that me not looking all that much into the show’s voice cast, I read your comment and nearly screamed “THAT’S MATTHEW BRODERICK!?!?” at my phone.
Ummm no, it had nothing to do with her “free spirit”. Rosemary actually had developmental issues caused by a lack of oxygen during her birth. Considering she came from a family with high expectations, they were worried her mood swings and behavior would embarrass the family. Personally, I find it abhorrent that they lobotomized their own daughter just to preserve their own image.
@@bsgfan1 I think it was both that she suffered from some developmental disorder and the fact that she was a free spirit. Some readings describe her as being years behind her classmates but other testimonies made it come across as simple dyslexia, but Joseph Kennedy absolutely hated that she acted "Unlady-like" and was sexually active as an older teenager. It's hard to tell looking back how much of it was the mental issues or how much of it was just a young woman, understandably from a contemporary point of view, acting out.
After rereading, Rosemary's story, I'd have to say, in a sense, yes, it was, however, for a more different reason. Like Honey and Beatrice, Rosemary adored her father and, in her diaries, she wrote fondly of him (calling him her "Darling Daddy") but, unfortunately, due ignorance, prizing achievements (above all else), and, simply not teaching her how to better manage her emotions, she was lobotomised because of (supposed, I should add) tantrums and the fact that she grew into nice looking young lady, thus, like the two, her love was betrayed. Like Joseph Sugarman, Joe Kennedy didn't really want to bother with trying to be patient and learning how to deal with Rosemary and sought something to "help" her. Now, while what the either of them did and their reasons for why were fucking awful, we can't quite say it wasn't that they didn't care about their loved ones. They did, it's just that they didn't care in a proper way. In short, some facet of their actions were well-intentioned but they weren't *_GOOD_* , particularly because of their ultimate motives (embarrassment or convenience) and the aftermath.
@@MadameTamma If it was that "free spirit" it could be arranged by sending her to convents or imposing punishments, also instructing her. The lobotomy was more for medical reasons.
A lobotomy ruins you period. You can't just cut off someones brain like how they did, the point of the scene is that she forgot she was saying her phrase
Two things I noticed: 1.) when Joseph says “nothing a little ‘operation’ couldn’t fix” he looks to the side real quick and makes a nervous face, revealing how evil he is that he convinced a young Beatrice that what happened to her mother is medical and was the only viable solution for her “womanly emotions”. And 2.) when Honey says she has half a mind, she just stares blankly ahead and she never speaks again for the rest of the series. Not to mention the face Beatrice makes when she finished that ominous sentence; it’s possible that she went completely comatose due to complications from the lobotomy.
@Rian Power imo this is so much worse Hodor lived as good a life as he could've he may have been limited but he was for the most part happy and he died for his friends who he had protected the whole time.
@@MeMeMcsplosion Thank you! I'm not great at telling notes apart by sound, but yeah it kinda confused me how a single note could be thought of as "happy." CHORDS can be "happy" or "sad" or whatnot because all the notes in the chord give each other context. Saying that a single note is "happy" is like saying a single line on a piece of paper is a hexagon.
So, let me get this straight...Beatrice was bullied, suffered from the death of a family member and a mentally absent mother, along with a somewhat abusive and misguided father. Her trauma carried on into her adult life where she became emotionally and possibly physically abusive towards her own son. Damn, that's deep.
I mean it’s quite similar to reality. Abuse and trauma carriers through generations. For example, most children in past generations that were emotionally or physically abused were more likely to inflict their ways on their children or not be able to properly provide the care to them since they weren’t taught or given that affection.
She kept her promise to never love anyone as much as Honey loved Crackerjack, not even her own son later in life. I think in a way she did want to love BoJack but she couldn’t because she was afraid after she saw what love could do to people. This was the start of the chain of events that would lead to Bea becoming the horrific mother she is today.
And from then on she becomes both a literal and figurative "shadow of her former self" whenever Beatrice remembers her. That part where she slides into frame during Bea's debutante ball and you see that scar highlighted really unsettled me.
I feel like when Beatrice tells BoJack "I hope you die before I do so you never have to see feels like to lose a mother." is Beatrice actually caring for BoJack.
What Joseph thinks are 'womanly emotions' are actually normal, functional, human emotions like empathy Maybe the reason he calls them 'womanly' is because of the stereotype of 'men aren't suppose to show emotions, and women are all emotions' Edit: what I was trying to say is that emotions are foreign to Joseph. I’m going of the implication that he’s a narcissist. Men, of course, can show emotions and can express them, but it’s just no possible for a narcissist to do that
It is not determined that way, men also usually show emotions, only different from women, who usually have more empathy and are more emotional than men. So what he calls female emotions is in general that sensitivity and a lot of empathy, in addition to the fact that women are more likely to suffer from depression than men. Surely he also suffers the loss of her son, only that he does not sink into a deep depression nor does lose the use of reason.
@@ridler_ns6558 I think the point you're circling around is that men are not necessarily "less sensitive" or possessing of "less empathy" than women, but socialised from such a young age to channel certain emotions into acceptably "masculine" displays that many men don't learn to fully feel their own feelings, taught through lesson and imitation that the job of feeling those emotions can be put on the women in their life (hence why women and girls perform the third shift of "emotional labour"), and then become so divorced from their own feelings that they often refuse to recognise them in themselves and others (to the point that some men recognise their emotional responses as "logical" ones), that they just appear to be less sensitive and less empathetic. That state isn't natural, but socialised into them. It's why boys often fight each other (engaging in horseplay) for no reason -- it's an intricate ritual to permit physical touch and therefore affection between friends. It's why men often fare the worst emotionally after divorce, as they used to rely on their wives for emotional support and don't get it from their friends. It's a possible explanation for high rates of domestic violence, when men are taught that the only way they can express displeasure is through hitting and breaking shit, becoming a terrorist (as in, propagator of terror) in their own home. It's why the leading cause of death in men aged 18-40 is suicide. Joseph Sugarman himself skates rings around this point when he said that he "does not know how to deal with a woman's emotions, for *I was not taught, and will not learn."* He hasn't, though, "never lost the use of reason" due to the loss of his son -- he has simply refused to feel the loss. As for what he did to his wife -- that's him losing his reason. That's not a reasonable response, and in fact one fully based in emotions of frustration, anger and resentment, all of which he took out on her. He is simply so divorced from his own emotions that he refuses to call them by their name or deal with them -- again, it's most likely he would have his wife do that emotional labour for him. We have to stop seeing the way we bring up people to feel as "just the way it is" and "natural" when we very much taught it to them, and men can change for the better by being in touch with how they feel without using physical channels or being violent to others. It does take work, though.
@@rachelfox8108 As I said, men feel emotions only that are not related to sensitivity or empathy, for example they manifest more anger, and anger like any other emotion is part of us. Men often cry when watching favorite sports. There are examples in history of men who cried, Achilles cried when they learned that Patroclio was killed, Julius Caesar cried helplessly in front of a statue of Alexander the Great because he felt that he would not achieve as much as he did. As I said differently. In that sense that men are like that is usually by nature. The testosterone hormone works prenatally, and that defines a lot for women and men. Since testosterone works more in men by growing cells in the areas of the brain related to aggressiveness or dominance. While in women there is not so much testosterone which makes them grow in areas related to empathy or communication.
@@ridler_ns6558 With respect, considering the fact that men from different cultures and households express their emotions in different ways for reasons *not* related to sports or battle, and have different associations with those emotions, your biological essentialist view that "it's testosterone" doesn't track in the slightest. What has been found is that being socialised to handle emotions in a particular way has a huge impact on the way we develop neurologically to handle emotions as we mature. Here are a few links about this: scholarship.shu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1018&context=locus (this links to a pdf) www.theguardian.com/world/2010/aug/15/girls-boys-think-same-way (an article from The Guardian) The fact is that we can see that it's not down to testosterone because we see it disproven in men who are taught to handle their emotions appropriately, as women are. The best way to test any theory is to urge yourself to disprove it utterly. Whatever stands undisproven, stands for now.
Most abusive parents you see who neglect their children were also abused and neglected as well. Beatrice got caught up in the same issues as her mother. Her dad wanting her to just shut up about her emotions and to marry how he sees fit. She went against it but still didn't find happiness. It doesn't excuse the fact that you've put your own child through the same experiences, but it's a lot of times the explanation for why.
Sadly, this also proved something very painful to Bojack, despite he not being aware of it: his mother never loved him. I think deep down he expected his mother just wasn't able to display love correctly, but with this flashback, now we are certain she had no love for him. It's sad what happened to Beatrice and her mom, but we can't blame Bojack for cutting contact with a mom who had no affection for him, no matter how hard her story was. I think that's why he destroyed the house, he wanted to let this part of his past and his mother's past behind.
...I need to talk about this because I don't feel like there's any place better to safely vent. All the Bojack sad scenes are great writing, but THIS was one of the few that ever struck a true chord with me personally and hurts me to the point of tears just thinking about it. My mom recently had a mental breakdown due to menopause causing hormone imbalances in her brain, as well as general anxiety and depression which she has always battled. She nose dived from being depressed to being manic depressive to being basically schizophrenic, hearing voices and seeing threats all around her and thinking everyone from the government to the neighbors to her own husband and co-workers were goons or terrorists hell-bent on killing her/her classroom children at school. She had to be put against her will in an institution and it took several weeks before she got sane enough to go out again. While we are really, really lucky to have her functionally sane again...in exchange for not thinking death was coming for her, she instead now basically has no personality. Whereas before she was all bubbly and creative, mood-swingy but full of passion, upbeat and annoying and tearful and silly and whiny and always bursting at random into vibrant song....now she has no personality whatsoever. All my life I wished for a more 'normal' mom, who wouldn't freak me out or yell or sing embarassingly loud all the time or make annoying constant pet names or cooings at me. Who treated me like just another bland normal adult, and not like I was her sweet little poodle. Now I feel like I got my wish, in the most horrible way. She's a blank slate now. She never had a lobotomy. But the medications they keep her on in order for her to not descend back into psychopathy have made her EXACTLY like Honey in this scene. She used to grieve openly so much about her dead brother and parents and now, she doesn't like talking much about them and I cannot help seeing the parallels. It hurts very much to watch it but I cannot stop because it's like somebody understands. ....finally, ontop of it, I have a history of feeling depressions and mood-swings myself. I am self-aware of these emotions, and usually have ability to control it and apologize after I have calmed from a bad argument. But I am aware that while I am basically just about the same as every emotional/misunderstood young woman out there, once upon a time not very long ago at all, in fact right around the time when my mother / her mother were MY age in their youths, this lobotomy/similar barbaric procedures were used on people like me all the time. I am bisexual and not that long ago my orientation would have been legitimately seen and treated as an actual mental illness. My own mother herself told me so, and not out of anger or hate, in cold, academic, neutral objective terms. Not in a "YOU ARE NOT GOOD BECAUSE YOU ARE DIFFERENT YOU WILL GO TO HELL YOU ARE INSANE WAY".....in a chilling "Oh its okay you don't really know what you are talking about/ have ability to help what you do, you /gay/bi/trans people are all just mentally ill." I have seen it in old textbooks from the 70s. I have read about it in old pamphlets. And after I have lived thru seeing many people in my family have divorces, and toxic relationships filled with abuse, and so many stupid vapid arguments over nothing turn into dangerous physical attacks.....there are many times where beloved family members and partners turn into 'what ifs?' in the back of my mind. 'What if you and I lived not so long ago, and we were having these typical awful family spats, or I wasn't living up to your normal expectations. Would you have considered me enough of an inconvenience to have put me thru a lobotomy or into an institution, just to shut me up? ...Or just with good intentions, to make me 'feel better?' To make me less of an awkward embarrassment at dinners, and when you brought me out in public as a little kid, and I didn't know what was polite and what was 'too mouthy' to say around grown ups??' I just..... want to feel like I know they would love me and treat me right and continue to take care of me in spite of my flaws as they have chosen to still do, in EVERY incarnation of reality and timeline.... but I know that is impossible to know for sure. It's not just this I guess so much what truly hurts me but the fact that my mom, the one who told me all my life to avoid the mentally ill, to stop acting out like a mentally ill person, to stop doing the things I love and being the person I truly am, because people will not get me and I will not learn how to be in the 'real' world..............got mentally ill and institutionalized. And I did not. I keep wondering and waiting if my own time will come. If not by some crazy life circumstances or personal sorrows then just mere chemical imbalances I am not aware of or am too frightened to treat at the risk of ending up just like her, an emotionless miserable numb husk. I keep wondering, if I have children with the man I love someday, will my demons catch me, will I become like Beatrice and not be able to handle being a parent properly? Will the post partum get me like it did my grandmother and mother before me, and turn me into a wreck? Will I be fine, but everyone else will suspect me of going off, every waking little moment I show emotions or irrationality, because I am frustrated or sad, for whatever reasons, hence always ready to see me put away at best notice?? I....I don't really care anymore, I guess, if it truly was for my own safety and other's safety and good. If I was like my mother right now, where I had been recently accusing random strangers of trying to 'murder' me and having panic attacks over the phone, calling her own family 'imposters' or 'terrorists'....then I guess I would rather be lucid and safe to be around too. I just.....sorry. I know this rant is a terrible long aimless one. I am appreciative of anyone with any feedback. Thank you.
Fuck...Over the Internet, I may seem cold and mechanical, but I am genuinely sorry. That is so tragic, and you are so brave for telling the story in so much detail. Unfortunately, there is literally nothing I can say to help. I wish there was, but I lack the knowledge or understanding. Just know that there are people who, if they can't help, at least want to help.
God, I am really sorry for you and your mom.I'm so sorry that I can't help with anything, I really wish I could. Please, please if you can, go to a therapist, you need to talk about this with someone who can help you. I don't know you, but I don't want you to be mentally ill because of all your situation. Maybe he can recommend you some ways to prevent that the illness expresses if it's genetic. And if it's not, you would avoid to develope it. I really hope your mom gets better, and if you have any bad situation through your life, you have the strength to overcome. I wish you and your family the best!
Avocado Smash Damn, I read the whole thing, you need a fucking hug. I am so sorry about what happened to your mom, and the way those thoughts plague you absolutely horrifies me because I felt that way about my mom. Now I know I don’t ever want anything like that to happen to her. I sincerely wish you a better much happier future. ❤️
As someone who had sunk into depression(perhaps a light one, I wouldn't know for sure since my mom doesn't believe in many mental illnesses and would never took me or my bi-polar brother to the doctor), I can feel your pain to some extent. It's so hard when I kept driving people away, having them openly comment on how I was annoying, and tell me that I sound mentally insane. Having a father who keeps telling you that your life is a failure and a waste, and wishing you were aborted did not help, either..... I found my strength within myself by choosing to keep only a few true friends who wouldn't belittle me and would support me all the way, even if I didn't believe in myself. Now after 2 years of collegr I'm going back to my country and live back with my family, along with my brother, who have anger issues and would kick me or hit me out of spite, and my mother's enablement on his behavior. I wish I will find strength in all my friend's blessings, even though we'd be thousand miles apart.
Earlier in the episode Honey tells Beatrice ice cream is a boys snack and she should eat a sugar coated lemon cause that’s a “healthy girls snack” When Beatrice’s dad comes out to tell her mom is ready to see her, she’s eating a sugar coated lemon
In a way, Joseph himself is emotionally lobotomized. He fails to recognize that the grief Honey felt from losing her son is something that anyone would experience if they lost someone they loved. Instead of at least trying to properly help Honey or grieve alongside her, he refuses to express or acknowledge what he calls "womanly emotions," which are just natural and expected responses to a tragedy, and becomes hollow towards his wife's suffering. In his own way, Joseph has half a mind, as he stays empty and apathetic throughout this entire ordeal and just tries to make Honey as empty as he is. Eventually, he not only succeeds in reducing Honey into nothing but a shell of who she once was, but he also makes Beatrice empty as well. She learns to never love anyone in the way Honey loved Crackerjack, to the point where she can't even love Bojack, her own son.
This legitimately made me cry. To miss someone so much it hurts to be normal and on top of it to have a douchey spouse that thinks a lobotomy fixes everything is just an awful thing to go through.
This scene makes me tear/cry up every time but for some reason I can't help but keep coming back to it. This show is hands down the best and well written show's I've ever seen, it's a fcking master-piece and so much more. Especially this season, it was beyond anything I've ever seen and I could watch it for years to come, over and over without coming anywhere near boredom.
I think I feel even worse thinking that her mom might have agreed to it on her own terms to run away from her own emotions. instead shes stuck in her own limbo hell where she never really recovered.
If you think about it, Joseph Sugarman is kind of the person to blame for everything. Joseph himself representing the ideas of corporate greed, toxic masculinity, and entitlement.
This scene always feels weird to me. On the one hand, it's heart breaking what happens to Honey. On the other hand, the whole sequence with her ended leading up to a god-tier pun.
The previous 3 seasons I was would binge the entire season over 2 days. This episode stopped me flat and I had to take a break of a few days before continuing the rest of the season. So well done, but such a sucker punch to the gut.
beatrice tried to love anyway. she tried to love corbin creamerman, as she tried to love butterscotch. but she felt what honey felt. love causes pain, and she was never able to love again, not in her sane mind
The way she said "I have half a mind" is so terrifying. It felt robotic. Like she was programmed to say it. Almost as if that was quite literally what happened. They took half of her, he had them take half of her because he didn't like how she was acting.
It's interesting that Joesph Sugermen was evil in a different way. He was supportive and was there for his family, but it was eery and horrifying with how he kept a happy demeanor to save that image of a perfect family. He did his wife's wishes, he tried to hide any horrors from Beatrice and worked. But he was no saint.
That's the thing, he's NOT there for his family. He's only around when things are happy and easy. The hard stuff - grief, depression, sickness - he's not supportive with any of that.
I don’t know, I suspect he didn’t exactly do anything to _raise_ his daughter. He probably just paid the servants who kept her alive while he was sneaking “pretty pills” into her food and taking away her things and sending her off to live-in schools. There’s a difference between actually raising a child and just living next to them and abusing and controlling them.
natylee knowing No problem! It’s a reference to her lobotomy (a medical procedure involving cutting out part of the brain) and her forgetting her daughter and identity/herself Hope this helps! :)
That smile from Honey is what disturbs me the most. The relaxed eyelids as though she's half asleep. The dilated pupils looking off into space instead of Beatrice or anything in particular. The undercircles. The weakness in her voice. The pitiful attempt to reassure her daughter and the viewer that it will all be okay, even though it will never be true. It's the last dying gasp of the cheerful and warm spirited woman we first saw. Haunting.
Throughout the entire series, all the dialogue is so... natural. But this, it starts breaking. It's all too frantic, it gets cut off randomly, and it creates a debilitating sense of Unease. and that's why I love this show.
Going back to this episode, I realized that I hadn't paid much attention to the previous scene. I know that there is a definite note of cruelty to Joseph's decision to have his wife lobotomized. However, after she wrecks the car she gets on her knees and begs him to be fixed. I think that says a lot about the end result. A damaged person who was willing to do anything to not feel broken anymore, a path that her grandson Bojack has opted for as well.
The most incredible thing is that Beatrice never hated her father, she always talk good things about him and he basically ruined her life. Edit: He didn't exactly want to, but in the end, he did.
When people defend "FlareHead" because "his daughter doesn't hate him as much." He's just a stressed man who doesn't know any better and also cares about his reputation. Don't hate him!! (By the way, he also mentally broke his wife and confined her to a psychiatric center). And no, he never receives real consequences for his actions, but nobody cares because the author took it upon himself to emotionally manipulate the audience
What hits about this scene just a little harder, is she's pretty much emotionless now, and emotions have to do with the frontal lobe. She literally has half a mind.
Wonder if Honey subconsciously loved Crackerjack more because he resembled her unlike Beatrice who looked almost exactly like the horrible man she married
Didn't her mom tell her something along the lines of "Iced cream is for boys. Put a little sugar on a slice of lemon, that's a healthy girls snack."? It's kind of funny that right before the scene where her mother tells her never to love anyone like she loved her son they show Beatrice sucking on a lemon, following her advice.
What makes this even more sad is that she wanted the operation, she begged her husband to fix her after she was lead to believe something was wrong with her for grieving over the loss of her son. Mental health wasn't focused on all that much back then and it didn't help that her husband wasn't there for her but was more uncomfortable and even embarrassed by her sorrow.
She didn’t want to be lobotomized specifically, she just wanted to be fixed. And he’s the reason she ended up thinking she was broken, and got so impulsive and desperate in the first place. The reason Honey’s grief for Crackerjack became so overwhelming, and why she ended up snapping at the party, was because no one would talk to her about it and kept trying to get her to push it down, especially Joseph. He kept telling her that her womanly emotions were getting out of control way before she did anything reckless, and neglecting her emotionally. He went to live in the city to flirt with his secretary while leaving her and Beatrice in the countryside amongst strangers until Honey could get her “hysteria” under control. Leaving her all alone with no one to talk to but her daughter, while being gaslit into thinking she was deranged for her sadness.
Poor Beatrice, she gets traumatized. And she didn't tell nobody until when her son Bojack grown up and she told him about her mother Honey's brain cutted in half
Joseph is the most perplexing character I have ever seen in bojack horseman Yes what he did was wrong a shitty but It's not like he didn't love his family, and in "Times Arrow" he seemed to regret the lobotomy
Brandon Harris we see the point of view of Beatrice, Who was Just a child. And in the present we see the world through bojack's eyes. A depressed horse. That's why this series is that pessimist
I've seen a lot of messed up shit in my life but something about this episode, and this scene especially, is just utterly horrifying to me. Like, it's great writing, but I almost wish I could un-watch it.
The fact that earlier in the episode she said "why I have half a mind to love you" And her last lines in the episode are "why I have half a mind" never finishing the sentence, shows that she is half the person she was. half of a woman, only stating facts, and not acknowledging emotions, or love. I'm not good at deconstructing things
In the end Beatrice never did love anyone as much as Honey loved Crackerjack. Not even her own son.
And that is sad, cause she saw what love can do. It destroyed her mother and as A little girl the take away was to never love anyone that much cause the pain love causes can destroy you. Which is sad. If her mother never got lobotomized she would not have had that ' lesson' instilled into her throughout her life and she may have had a better marriage, and a better relationship with her son.
She saw her mother love her son. This resulted in her becoming mad with grief and getting lobotomized, turning her into a monotone (eventually catatonic) vegetable. She tried to love a DOLL, the doll is destroyed because, according to her father, she infected it with her sickness. And finally, she tried to love Butterscotch, but he let her down by blaming her for his failure as a writer (when in reality he was had no talent, was delusional, and it was just a pipe dream ), yelled at her when she couldn’t get the baby to stop crying, and just acted like an ass in general and by refusing to take a well paying job for her father. At that point, she had no love left in her for poor BoJack, just trauma and bitterness as a result from it.
Heck BoJack even looks like Crackerjack
Cheap Cooking Channel exactly. Honey was a perfect mother. Even if she had some stariotyps like making Beatrice not eat icecream because she will get fat and unatractive... witch is actually not a bad thing to force kids to do tbh. She raised a perfectly good son and I would like to think Beatrice could have done the same if it wasn't for her fathers influence.
Jason Allcreator I’m not siding with Joseph I think what he did was aweful but I understand where he was coming from. And yeah Bea was a result of her upbringing just like BoJack. And none of what happened to her is an excuse to take it out on her son. I do not have poor judgement I realized that what Joseph did in HIS eyes was the best thing, he was just either impulsive or callous while he did so. When a child caught scarlet fever their belongings would have to be burned, the problem is that Joseph did it so callously. You also shouldn’t just shift all the blame onto Joseph for how Bea’s life ended up, like what Todd said “You are all that is wrong with you” It wasn’t Crackerjack dying, it wasn’t her moms lobotomy, it wasn’t her abusive dad, it wasn’t that she went with the wrong guy, it’s her. She chose to abuse BoJack
"Beatrice... promise me you'll never love anyone as much as I loved Crackerjack."
"I promise! I won't..."
Well now I see why Beatrice never treated Bojack with any love. Too afraid to get too attached to her own son. Afraid of the sorrow she'll face if she loves and loses Bojack. Afraid of becoming a shell of her former self, like her mom, in the process. But either way, she still became that shell.
ThatGamerDude9000 yeah she wasnt inteligent enough to let that promise go
Latioswar R It had nothing to do with intelligence. Her lobotomized mother told her that at a very young age, she witnessed first hand what Love did to her and was terrified she didn’t want that for herself. So she wasn’t being ignorant, she was traumatized, she was afraid.
Jibri Trawick I agree with this, but also her whole reletionship with her husband didnt help her resentment either.
ThatGamerDude9000 she became a shell because of her father. With no mother her father just turned her into another version of himself.
So I guess Beatrice was just a person that grew up her whole life taking to heart a very, very, VERY terrible advice?
This season was so heavy. It was so horrifying in a good way.
Thanks.
Indeed, but the end of the season was full of promise and hope for Bojack, Todd and Princess Carolyn 😊
@@user-wx8mi1pd6g I haven't watched it yet 😅
@@user-wx8mi1pd6g I've seen season 5 but not season 6 yet. I meant that the end of season 5 seemed quite hopeful for those characters
@@user-wx8mi1pd6g I appreciate :)
What's really disturbing is how she says "like I 'loved' Crackerjack", not 'love'. She can't even feel love for her son anymore, like it was scooped out of her.
I don't think she could feel much of anything at that point, it's sad as fuck
I never want that to happen to me :
@@babythecupheadlikesRPS don’t worry lobotomies are a thing of the past.
she can she just can not grasp it or express it anymore :S That is terrifying
@@berrymint6384 I can only imagine how terrible it is to not b able to express love for your loved ones :
In a way, he lobotomized his wife and his daughter, his wife physically and his daughter emotionally. Did anyone else pick up that Vibe as well?
Great observation!
Howlbigbadwolf I didn’t even think of that, that’s smart.
Jibri Trawick I was due to be smart at some time, law of averages lol.
Yeah.....
Every time I watched or hear a story as awful and cruel as this.
This would sound child like, but my tummy just sink awfully deep and hurts till I can't breath.
For anyone wondering, yes this is absolutely a thing that people did to family members with issues back in the 1940s. Several thousand US soldiers were given lobotomies after developing (what we now know was) PTSD after coming home from WW2. In the 1950s one boy was given a lobotomy at the request of his stepmother because she didn't like him and thought it would make him easier to handle
So as horrific as this scene is, it's not made up, this sort of thing absolutely happened
Yes, and there were not many options, mental illnesses were little understood for their treatment at that time. Before it was a lobotomy or it was a madhouse, which were places that seemed more like prisons, where torture was sometimes practiced.
And people have the audacity to say those times were better.
@@ausername1761 They were in some ways, most they were not. Lobotomies were certainly brutal but not exactly common, only 50,000 were ever performed, this may seem like a lot but considering the US population of 134 million during 1945, well, it wasn’t that common.
Fucking disgusting.
@@nikolaiaramov4851 I keep seeing you in comments saying it wasn’t that common and even if it wasn’t, that’s still 50,000 people. That’s still way too many people for me.
This moment was hard to watch at first. Thats what happened to my grandmother. She wanted a divorce and was declared hysterical. The things they could do back in the day...
I'm so sorry! 😢
Damn.
No wonder women would have much rather to have killed themselves or chance prison by killing their spouses back then. The idea of that happening for simply wanting out makes that worse.
The past is a time period of racism, sexism, and sheer heartlessness toward those who did not quite belong.
I'm tearing up at this comment, I'm so sorry your grandmother had to go through something so horrible.
That’s horrifying. I’m so sorry...
"Why I have half a mind" proved to be the darkest joke in the entire program. Honestly pretty surprising given how dark this final season got.
English isn’t my first language, could you explain the joke to me?
@@natascha2983 "I have half a mind" is usually followed by an action that the speaker wants to do. For example, "I have half a mind to eat all the cake" or "I have half a mind to leave this place", meaning that the person wants to do something but is holding back for whatever reason. "I have half a mind" is also ironic as a lobotomy is a surgical procedure in which parts of the brain are severed: the patient only has "half a mind". In this scene, Honey started saying "why, I have half a mind..." but couldn't finish the sentence, presumably due to the lobotomy affecting her logical thought process. This statement is not actually meant to be a joke, but rather unintended verbal irony.
natylee knowing before the lobotomy and while their son was alive, Beatrice says, “I have half a mind to kiss you”, to Joesph. She was trying to say the same thing to Beatrice, but she stopped half way because of the lobotomy that left her with, “half a mind”.
@@Redbird-dh7mu Not Beatrice, Honey
@@Redbird-dh7mu Also he literally says "well that half you can keep" as in like the half of her mind that won't kiss him is disposable.
Joseph: "You ruined your own wedding!"
Beatrice: "YOU RUINED MOM!"
That would have been satisfying to hear
For the time, it was the lobotomy or it was a madhouse, many men did not bother and threw their wives to the street. Madhouses were horrible places where patients were commonly tortured, so it was the best thing to do to fix this.
@@ridler_ns6558 fix what? This woman didnt have mental issues. She was griefing. Her son died.
It was possibly the lesser of two evils but it fixed nothing. This is why lobotomies arent a thing anymore, because they were never capable of fixing a person.
@@cryingOnions Even the detectiln of mental illnes was precary. She almost kill her son, and shows a lot of desesperation. The dad do the best thing he could do. Another husbands let his wifes abandoned in the streets, but he keep his wife and mantain her. In that time the psicology was not progress so much.
@@ridler_ns6558 she did not kill her son though? He went to war. He had no choice but to go to war. The dad simply did not want to deal with his wife's feelings so he got rid of them. Simple as that. She was grieving. That is what people do when they lose a loved one. He did not want to deal so he got rid of her feelings. Whether that was what you did back then and whether its better (arguable) than throwing her on the streets, it did not fix the problem. Getting rid of feelings never fixed the problem and that is exactly what is wrong with lobotomies. They don't cure you from having nightmares, pain or fright, you still have them, you just stop caring. A lobotomy stops you from having emotions and feelings on things, it doesn't stop the underlying issue.
Joseph Sugarman is evidence that evil isn't always obvious. Even a seemingly nice, upstanding man, which is what he seemed to be at the start of the episode, can be capable of truly horrifying acts of cruelty for the sake of convenience.
I've heard it said that he thought he was helping, but I don't buy that. He didn't want to be embarrassed by an unpredictable wife, so he robbed her of her personality and consigned her to waking death. All for convenience. To me, the most chilling moment in this season is a throwaway bit where Beatrice is arguing with Butterscotch, says something like "my father understood what marriage was!", and then the show cuts to a brief flashback of Joseph shaking and screaming at his lobotomised wife, while young Beatrice watches through a doorway.
Holy shit, Bojack Horseman went to some deep, dark places this season...
Jack Heslop No I believe he genuinely thought he was helping. He's a decent man. . . for the times this is set in. From what I've gathered things like lobotomy and burning things that sick people been around was considered to be fine back then. Now we think those things are fucked up but back then people didn't think that. Now I'm saying this because it's apparent he thinks this is for the best. He's not trying to be malicious like Butterscotch it's just that with modern thinking at the time he thought this was helping. Fucked us as it is I don't think he's evil. Like how Beatrice isn't evil or BoJack either. They're a product of their environment and it's clear he is too. They're terrible people sure but not terrible for no reason. Seems yo be a trend for the family.
I take your point, but I can't bring myself to view the character that way. The culture he was raised in certainly made it easier for him to have his wife lobotomised and probably convince himself that he was doing it for her benefit, but I think his ultimate motive was convenience. Even men of the time didn't tend to have their wives lobotomised because they were grieving too much; I'd wager that a lot of the time there would have had to have been long-term and deeply rooted mental health issues, or at least a significant stay in a psychiatric facility, for whatever reason. But a man as rich and corrupt as Joseph Sugarman would have been all too happy to use his wealth and influence to get a quickie operation.
In the same way, he bullied his daughter and used her as a business commodity, which again may have been enabled by the culture at the time but wasn't exactly encouraged. I think his ability to do the things that he did is a product of his time, but that he himself is still a monster.
She was going to kill herself and/or his daughter.
In the 1950s people actually thought this was a totally legit treatment.
And as much as he is an ass he in the end seemingly forgave Beatrice for getting knocked up by a no good loser by giving said loser a job.
I wonder if, like if they really wanted to, the writers could make us understand and sympathize with Joseph Sugarman the way they did with Bojack (who is a really crappy guy, seriously) and more recently Beatrice (who up 'til this season everyone just kinda assumed was a monster, and actually totally is, but... damn).
Yeah, you have a point about the car crash that could have killed both her and Beatrice. But I think "not letting her drive and getting her to stay in hospital for a while" was a better option than "fucking with her brain". Also, giving Butterscotch a job was, I assumed, just his way of keeping his daughter out of his life. If she's well-fed and comfortable she won't be an embarrassment to him, the poor daughter who lives in the ghetto. But that's just me.
The poison all started with Joseph Sugarman
The poison started with the war that took their son.
Nucleogenman hippy :V (jk)
The sugarman is from a long line of poisonous horses
Did it? Because I bet if we ever got information about his past, we'd see yet more disturbing stuff that twisted people.
Maybe his older sister was a raging alcoholic who beat him up. And that is why he is so incapable of dealing with women having emotions. That wouldn't justify anything, but would show that the poison goes even further back.
Maybe it started with society
Despite Beatrice’s treatment of Bojack I still can’t help but feel sorry for her. Seriously, how did the writers manage to make me feel sympathy for the most despicable fictional character in existence?
I suppose that's just good writing for ya. Compliments to the writers I suppose.
This is the reality of things though. You might have a person in your life that has done terrible things to you, but they may act the way they do because of their past, and you might feel sympathy for them. You can still dislike them-even hate them! But you can also understand them. There is no black and white in people's souls.
Most despicable? That's Joseph and Butterscotch. And the show never tries to make them feel sympathetic (or does it? I haven't finished the series)
Because it’s clear that if her past was different, she would be different
@@acidicali7776 bojack is easily worse than butterscotch
This scene makes my blood turn cold. Even after all the darkness which this show has ventured into, I think this moment of a little girl sobbing into her lobotomized mother's lap is the most horrific image that this show has yet produced.
The fact that there is a possibility no one will ever know the details of Beatrice and her mother's story, because there's no one around who's capable of telling it, is so mind-boggling to me. Even if Beatrice was all there, with all her memories, there is no way in hell she would ever communicate the full extent of her trauma to anyone. And that's just... so sad and terrifying to me.
Oh I can imagine her bitchily telling some of it to Bojack when he was younger.
I have the same situation with my mother. She's not as mean as Beatrice is but she is a victim of abuse and trauma from her childhood that I've only heard a little bit about from my brother. She will never tell me the extent of it.
This is the way it is for a lot of traumatised people. None of these stories ever get told because the people who could tell them are unable to express the extent of it, which is also why it's hard for abuse victims to defend themselves in court or why it can be hard to talk with mental health services. People that aren't traumatised just can't imagine it.
Even then, at that point in her life, she could barely remember it. Remember that episode that focused on her past? There were glitches everywhere because she could barely remember it.
That's one of the unfortunate aspects of life. Many stories go untold. People die tragically before they've resolved the issues in them. Left things unsaid and unfinished.
Her father is scary as heck
He seems so nice at first but later on you realise he's just abusing both his daughter and wife
@sejsjejeusu ehejdhdj "People like to invent monsters and monstrosities. Then they seem less monstrous themselves. When they get blind-drunk, cheat, steal, beat their wives, starve an old woman, when they kill a trapped fox with an axe or riddle the last existing unicorn with arrows, they like to think that the Bane entering cottages at daybreak is more monstrous than they are. They feel better then. They find it easier to live." Geralt of Rivia, The Last Wish.
He was a good man, before mental illnesses did not have much treatment, so it was this or it was a madhouse that at the time were horrible places where patients were often tortured. So he did the most understandable act for his time, when many would have left his wife on the street or abandoned her in a madhouse, he decided to continue supporting her. Also yelling at your wife is not abuse, it is a simple couple discussion.
@sejsjejeusu ehejdhdj that divorce rate was only during the period of divorces becoming less legally complicated, meaning all the unhappy married couples finally had a chance to break up, then it stabilized further later on
I'm not even gonna dignify the second "point" you make with a response.
@@ridler_ns6558 😐
@@ridler_ns6558 Can you take your ignorant ramblings somewhere else, please? A "discussion" should not have to include yelling; if there is, and that wasn't the intention, there needs to be an apology. Please shut your mouth and stop minimizing abuse and speaking over victims. Christ.
“What a pretty girl.” That gets to me so bad. She still cares about her daughter and loves her.
opposite. that line is how beatrice realises her mother is not the same.
It strikes more as as if she met her and gave a generic compliment like when you do to a stranger, to me
"Honey Sugarman, how did such a sweet face end up with such a smart mouth?"
"I don't know, but I have half a mind to kiss you with that smart mouth."
"Well that half you can keep!"
welp. looks like I won't be needing any sleep tonight.
Keyinei Oh my gosh... that's too much, man...
Seriously. I like to imagine that was the reaction in the writing room when that piece of dialogue first got pitched.
Fuck this show, man.
You'll notice how many times she says "half-a-mind," once you rewatch this episode.
Izzzyzzz
Funny I thought that too! That's too much, man.
i legit cried when bojack explained to his mother at the end of the season where they were. she finally recognices him and asks him where they are and he lies.
The worst part is that even in her sentience she still lied to herself. When Bojack asked if she could taste the ice cream. She looked uneasy & said yes.
I C U
I mean, I really would have taken her to a better nursing home. She was unwell. Even after what she did to Bojack's sister she probably had no idea what was going on or what she was doing. I hope he took her to a better place after that.
Rose Strife14 It really threw me that Beatrice drugged her. I had no idea amphetamines were used for stuff like diet pills and appetite suppression before this show. And Beatrice took them herself because even her loving mother told her she should keep slim. Bojack’s mom really had so much stacked against her, it’s no wonder she went for a life that was miserable but comfortable in the end.
@@zonelee2652 I'm just now realizing that Beatrice never had ice cream, because her mom said it wasn't a 'girl snack'. she couldn't taste it if she wanted to.
This has to be one of the most well-written and thought provoking shows to ever be made. I'm sure most people would have felt the show to be a little meh in the beginning, but it just gets better and better. This show speaks to humans on a very high level, striking elements from mental health to our very existence on this planet. Life's cruel and by the words of Todd Chavez, "the only way out is through". The show is an ineffable rollercoaster of emotions. I can't express how much I've come to love this show. Dark humour at it's best. What a beautiful masterpiece!
I love how they gave more backstory to Beatrice. It shows how hard her early childhood was, much like Bojack's. I feel sorry for her somewhat after seeing it.
The sugarman family definitely turned out to be quite the interesting nesting dolls of self-abasement. We see Beatrice's oppressive upbringing where she does rebel against her given role as a Sugarman daughter where she can, but most of the damage has already been done by her mother- obsessing over appearance as a child and perceiving little indulgences like ice cream and pancakes as a taboo. Although, her own mother was raised that way and had a husband that'd run out on her when she wasn't capable of being anything more than a trophy wife.
It explains the way she then treats Bojack and I want to feel for her, but instead of giving up Bojack while he was still young and she was miserable, she berates him to remain detached.
We at least see Bojack try to deter himself from his mother's cruel habits but he still gives into self-destructive tendencies and brings down anyone that's around him. He needs to learn to get over himself and finally seek help. I'm not entirely sure, though, if that's in his realm of capabilities right now.
And then there's Hollyhock...
It's just crazy how the events which we grow up witnessing as children, shape us or rather screw us up completely as adults. Right from Beatrice's refusal to abort her unborn child, to her raising Bojack but nevertheless, showing a serious lack of empathy and love towards him, we understand that the cruel, scarring things she had to see and endure as a child , led her to become the most hated character on the show up to season 3. The backstory definitely cleared some things up a bit. To top it off, Bojack's subtle change of heart is much appreciated. When Beatrice asks, "Bojack, is that you?", I couldn't help but admire the way he sat down to put before her, a rosy picture of a happier time, when she once lived with her happy family in Michigan, by the lake. And then the part about the ice-cream- my heart just melted :'(
Sujay Kaushik Ravi The only way out is through? Nah, life is way too much fucking pain to endure. It's time to die. Tonight.
Mr Robot I probably felt the same when Sarah Lynn died. Life seemed to be at a standstill. :(
Notice, how on 0:54 Beatrice's voice breaks a little and she sounds like an older version of herself, as if emphasizing that this is the moment that marked the beginning of her transformation to the person she eventually became.
Damn, never noticed that😲
I think the most fucked up part is where she says "why i have half a mind..." cus we're expecting her to finish the sentence with something but that's it.. she just has half a mind...
Jocelyn Nelson I thought she said while I have half a mind
I think it also works as her telling Beatrice why it happened in the first place. She loved Crackerjack so much that when she died she couldn't handle herself anymore, and Joseph decided to get her lobotimized. Like she's saying "(that's) why I have half a mind"
The last chord in the background music doesn't help. It's designed to make the song sound unfinished.
And with the optimistic tone, which is beautiful right there, evne though if being truthfully about her monotone and non caring persona now, should have kept it monotone.. But that small optimism, in the darkest of moments. I find it.. Beautiful.. But extremely sad. This show is amazing.
Well that's the half you can keep..
"Why I have half a mind..." and "I wanna be an architect..." hurt SO bad.
They really do.
To think Beatrice ended up having the same fate as her mother
She died with half a mind
As well as Crackerjack who got shot in the head
I didn't even realize that holy shit
You just made me realize that her line of "what it's like to lose a mother" had another layer of significance...bojack lost beatrice to her dementia before death, just like beatrice lost Honey to her lobotomy
That's.....that's too much man.
Just too much.
I seriously wonder how different everything would be if Crackerjack didn't die
Adrian Adkins Bojack could’ve had a loving uncle as another father figure besides Secretariat
@@SRLovesPandas1 Or a hardened veteran uncle traumatized by the horrors of war
BoJack probably wouldn't exist at all.
@@whiskeyfarbrorn on the other hand, Beatrice could have had a chance to know Corban better and sooner, as the two are similar. Corban is a decent man and I think they could've been a great couple helping eachother build themselves up after the abuse from their fathers
Yeah I agree with DrawnWithLove, If Beatrice hadn't been traumatized out of ever being loving or vulnerable by her mom's request, she might have been more interested in continuing things with Corbon. If she wasn't so spiteful towards her father and had an older brother and a mom to turn to during her "angsty teenage years" she may not have wanted to rebel so badly that she'd drive off with Butterscotch. If she did have sex with him, maybe she'd have gotten the abortion (if her mother and brother were there when she lost her baby doll, it might not have scarred her so badly).
There is the possible timeline where Butterscotch would get her pregnant but Beatrice would have enough self-respect not to get hitched with him and perhaps Corbon would even agree to raise the baby with her. Bojack would've had much better parents in that scenario.
It's so upsetting to think how many women were treated this way back then. My great grandmother got shock treatments when she got depressed from her father dying.
jfc....
My lord...
😨😨 wow that’s terrible
This makes it sound like something horrific but shock therapy (electroconvulsive therapy) is still something that is used today to treat depression.
Gosh this was such a messed up scene. This season was incredibly dark.
Jeez I knew this series was gonna be dark but man... this really got to me, it's just so... real.
Nightmare fuel, better grab a drink
Is it wierd that I think this might be Mathew Brodrik's best performance? I didn't know he could play someone so calm and terrifying.
Kinda like Gus from breaking bad..
nahnah nah “well get back to work” he says so calmly after just cutting someone’s throat
Yoooo isn't he the same guy that starred in Ferris Bueller's Day Off???!!!
@@laura-ni8ym yup. He's also the voice of adult Simba from the lion king
I think a good sign of it is that me not looking all that much into the show’s voice cast, I read your comment and nearly screamed “THAT’S MATTHEW BRODERICK!?!?” at my phone.
It's sad because her mother didn't need an operation she needed a therapist or someone to talk too...
Its a clear reference what "Joseph" Kennedy did to his daughter Rosmary as a way to control her free spirit.
Ummm no, it had nothing to do with her “free spirit”. Rosemary actually had developmental issues caused by a lack of oxygen during her birth. Considering she came from a family with high expectations, they were worried her mood swings and behavior would embarrass the family. Personally, I find it abhorrent that they lobotomized their own daughter just to preserve their own image.
@@bsgfan1 I think it was both that she suffered from some developmental disorder and the fact that she was a free spirit. Some readings describe her as being years behind her classmates but other testimonies made it come across as simple dyslexia, but Joseph Kennedy absolutely hated that she acted "Unlady-like" and was sexually active as an older teenager. It's hard to tell looking back how much of it was the mental issues or how much of it was just a young woman, understandably from a contemporary point of view, acting out.
.......literally not the point. Nobody needed to cut her head open and take part of her brain out. Whether free spirited or developmentally disabled.
After rereading, Rosemary's story, I'd have to say, in a sense, yes, it was, however, for a more different reason.
Like Honey and Beatrice, Rosemary adored her father and, in her diaries, she wrote fondly of him (calling him her "Darling Daddy") but, unfortunately, due ignorance, prizing achievements (above all else), and, simply not teaching her how to better manage her emotions, she was lobotomised because of (supposed, I should add) tantrums and the fact that she grew into nice looking young lady, thus, like the two, her love was betrayed.
Like Joseph Sugarman, Joe Kennedy didn't really want to bother with trying to be patient and learning how to deal with Rosemary and sought something to "help" her.
Now, while what the either of them did and their reasons for why were fucking awful, we can't quite say it wasn't that they didn't care about their loved ones. They did, it's just that they didn't care in a proper way.
In short, some facet of their actions were well-intentioned but they weren't *_GOOD_* , particularly because of their ultimate motives (embarrassment or convenience) and the aftermath.
@@MadameTamma If it was that "free spirit" it could be arranged by sending her to convents or imposing punishments, also instructing her. The lobotomy was more for medical reasons.
The fact that the mother tried to lighten the mood by telling a joke made it a million times worse
What joke?
@@Y20XTongvaLand she said as a joke that she said she has half a mind
@@earthbounder8329 No, I think what adds to the terror is the fact that she was mid-sentence. She just forgot she was speaking. It wasn't a joke.
A lobotamy does not damage your memory it cuts off you emotions
A lobotomy ruins you period. You can't just cut off someones brain like how they did, the point of the scene is that she forgot she was saying her phrase
Two things I noticed: 1.) when Joseph says “nothing a little ‘operation’ couldn’t fix” he looks to the side real quick and makes a nervous face, revealing how evil he is that he convinced a young Beatrice that what happened to her mother is medical and was the only viable solution for her “womanly emotions”. And 2.) when Honey says she has half a mind, she just stares blankly ahead and she never speaks again for the rest of the series. Not to mention the face Beatrice makes when she finished that ominous sentence; it’s possible that she went completely comatose due to complications from the lobotomy.
Honey is one of the saddest tv characters I've ever seen. And I'm a GOT fan.
@Rian Power imo this is so much worse Hodor lived as good a life as he could've he may have been limited but he was for the most part happy and he died for his friends who he had protected the whole time.
I'm a horror and gory movie lover and none of those terrifies me like this scene...so fucked up and real
Because it's played out straight.
When Sugarman tells the mother "you can keep that hald" of her brain, I was NOT prepared for him to be fucking serious
That note she plays on the piano is actually the happiest sounding note according to most people.
Oh yeah? What note is it, then?
@@StoutShako It's a B natural.
I've found basically nothing on it being the "happiest sounding note" though
@@MeMeMcsplosion Thank you! I'm not great at telling notes apart by sound, but yeah it kinda confused me how a single note could be thought of as "happy."
CHORDS can be "happy" or "sad" or whatnot because all the notes in the chord give each other context. Saying that a single note is "happy" is like saying a single line on a piece of paper is a hexagon.
She’s trying to remember the song she played with her son
Beatrice's voice switches to her adult voice when she said "I promise. I won't". She took her mother's words to heart. Which is heartbreaking
So, let me get this straight...Beatrice was bullied, suffered from the death of a family member and a mentally absent mother, along with a somewhat abusive and misguided father. Her trauma carried on into her adult life where she became emotionally and possibly physically abusive towards her own son. Damn, that's deep.
Not really
I mean it’s quite similar to reality. Abuse and trauma carriers through generations. For example, most children in past generations that were emotionally or physically abused were more likely to inflict their ways on their children or not be able to properly provide the care to them since they weren’t taught or given that affection.
I don’t think any bojack horseman fans have watched morel orel
@@thesmogo wheres my cookie?
@@thesmogo
I HAVE THAT SHOW MADE ME SOB
When I first watched this episode, the scene where it's just a close up of her hand on the piano was just so unsettling.
She kept her promise to never love anyone as much as Honey loved Crackerjack, not even her own son later in life. I think in a way she did want to love BoJack but she couldn’t because she was afraid after she saw what love could do to people. This was the start of the chain of events that would lead to Bea becoming the horrific mother she is today.
And from then on she becomes both a literal and figurative "shadow of her former self" whenever Beatrice remembers her. That part where she slides into frame during Bea's debutante ball and you see that scar highlighted really unsettled me.
I feel like when Beatrice tells BoJack "I hope you die before I do so you never have to see feels like to lose a mother." is Beatrice actually caring for BoJack.
What Joseph thinks are 'womanly emotions' are actually normal, functional, human emotions like empathy
Maybe the reason he calls them 'womanly' is because of the stereotype of 'men aren't suppose to show emotions, and women are all emotions'
Edit: what I was trying to say is that emotions are foreign to Joseph. I’m going of the implication that he’s a narcissist. Men, of course, can show emotions and can express them, but it’s just no possible for a narcissist to do that
It is not determined that way, men also usually show emotions, only different from women, who usually have more empathy and are more emotional than men. So what he calls female emotions is in general that sensitivity and a lot of empathy, in addition to the fact that women are more likely to suffer from depression than men. Surely he also suffers the loss of her son, only that he does not sink into a deep depression nor does lose the use of reason.
You got to keep in mind, how the mind set of those times where. Men weren't suppose to show emotions.
@@ridler_ns6558 I think the point you're circling around is that men are not necessarily "less sensitive" or possessing of "less empathy" than women, but socialised from such a young age to channel certain emotions into acceptably "masculine" displays that many men don't learn to fully feel their own feelings, taught through lesson and imitation that the job of feeling those emotions can be put on the women in their life (hence why women and girls perform the third shift of "emotional labour"), and then become so divorced from their own feelings that they often refuse to recognise them in themselves and others (to the point that some men recognise their emotional responses as "logical" ones), that they just appear to be less sensitive and less empathetic. That state isn't natural, but socialised into them. It's why boys often fight each other (engaging in horseplay) for no reason -- it's an intricate ritual to permit physical touch and therefore affection between friends. It's why men often fare the worst emotionally after divorce, as they used to rely on their wives for emotional support and don't get it from their friends. It's a possible explanation for high rates of domestic violence, when men are taught that the only way they can express displeasure is through hitting and breaking shit, becoming a terrorist (as in, propagator of terror) in their own home. It's why the leading cause of death in men aged 18-40 is suicide. Joseph Sugarman himself skates rings around this point when he said that he "does not know how to deal with a woman's emotions, for *I was not taught, and will not learn."* He hasn't, though, "never lost the use of reason" due to the loss of his son -- he has simply refused to feel the loss. As for what he did to his wife -- that's him losing his reason. That's not a reasonable response, and in fact one fully based in emotions of frustration, anger and resentment, all of which he took out on her. He is simply so divorced from his own emotions that he refuses to call them by their name or deal with them -- again, it's most likely he would have his wife do that emotional labour for him. We have to stop seeing the way we bring up people to feel as "just the way it is" and "natural" when we very much taught it to them, and men can change for the better by being in touch with how they feel without using physical channels or being violent to others. It does take work, though.
@@rachelfox8108 As I said, men feel emotions only that are not related to sensitivity or empathy, for example they manifest more anger, and anger like any other emotion is part of us. Men often cry when watching favorite sports. There are examples in history of men who cried, Achilles cried when they learned that Patroclio was killed, Julius Caesar cried helplessly in front of a statue of Alexander the Great because he felt that he would not achieve as much as he did. As I said differently. In that sense that men are like that is usually by nature. The testosterone hormone works prenatally, and that defines a lot for women and men. Since testosterone works more in men by growing cells in the areas of the brain related to aggressiveness or dominance. While in women there is not so much testosterone which makes them grow in areas related to empathy or communication.
@@ridler_ns6558 With respect, considering the fact that men from different cultures and households express their emotions in different ways for reasons *not* related to sports or battle, and have different associations with those emotions, your biological essentialist view that "it's testosterone" doesn't track in the slightest. What has been found is that being socialised to handle emotions in a particular way has a huge impact on the way we develop neurologically to handle emotions as we mature. Here are a few links about this: scholarship.shu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1018&context=locus (this links to a pdf)
www.theguardian.com/world/2010/aug/15/girls-boys-think-same-way (an article from The Guardian)
The fact is that we can see that it's not down to testosterone because we see it disproven in men who are taught to handle their emotions appropriately, as women are. The best way to test any theory is to urge yourself to disprove it utterly. Whatever stands undisproven, stands for now.
Most abusive parents you see who neglect their children were also abused and neglected as well. Beatrice got caught up in the same issues as her mother. Her dad wanting her to just shut up about her emotions and to marry how he sees fit. She went against it but still didn't find happiness. It doesn't excuse the fact that you've put your own child through the same experiences, but it's a lot of times the explanation for why.
Joseph sugerman is basically Joseph kennedy to an extent
Beatrice's father might be the most evil character I have ever seen in a show.
Sadly, this also proved something very painful to Bojack, despite he not being aware of it: his mother never loved him.
I think deep down he expected his mother just wasn't able to display love correctly, but with this flashback, now we are certain she had no love for him.
It's sad what happened to Beatrice and her mom, but we can't blame Bojack for cutting contact with a mom who had no affection for him, no matter how hard her story was.
I think that's why he destroyed the house, he wanted to let this part of his past and his mother's past behind.
...I need to talk about this because I don't feel like there's any place better to safely vent. All the Bojack sad scenes are great writing, but THIS was one of the few that ever struck a true chord with me personally and hurts me to the point of tears just thinking about it. My mom recently had a mental breakdown due to menopause causing hormone imbalances in her brain, as well as general anxiety and depression which she has always battled. She nose dived from being depressed to being manic depressive to being basically schizophrenic, hearing voices and seeing threats all around her and thinking everyone from the government to the neighbors to her own husband and co-workers were goons or terrorists hell-bent on killing her/her classroom children at school. She had to be put against her will in an institution and it took several weeks before she got sane enough to go out again. While we are really, really lucky to have her functionally sane again...in exchange for not thinking death was coming for her, she instead now basically has no personality. Whereas before she was all bubbly and creative, mood-swingy but full of passion, upbeat and annoying and tearful and silly and whiny and always bursting at random into vibrant song....now she has no personality whatsoever. All my life I wished for a more 'normal' mom, who wouldn't freak me out or yell or sing embarassingly loud all the time or make annoying constant pet names or cooings at me. Who treated me like just another bland normal adult, and not like I was her sweet little poodle. Now I feel like I got my wish, in the most horrible way. She's a blank slate now. She never had a lobotomy. But the medications they keep her on in order for her to not descend back into psychopathy have made her EXACTLY like Honey in this scene. She used to grieve openly so much about her dead brother and parents and now, she doesn't like talking much about them and I cannot help seeing the parallels. It hurts very much to watch it but I cannot stop because it's like somebody understands. ....finally, ontop of it, I have a history of feeling depressions and mood-swings myself. I am self-aware of these emotions, and usually have ability to control it and apologize after I have calmed from a bad argument. But I am aware that while I am basically just about the same as every emotional/misunderstood young woman out there, once upon a time not very long ago at all, in fact right around the time when my mother / her mother were MY age in their youths, this lobotomy/similar barbaric procedures were used on people like me all the time. I am bisexual and not that long ago my orientation would have been legitimately seen and treated as an actual mental illness. My own mother herself told me so, and not out of anger or hate, in cold, academic, neutral objective terms. Not in a "YOU ARE NOT GOOD BECAUSE YOU ARE DIFFERENT YOU WILL GO TO HELL YOU ARE INSANE WAY".....in a chilling "Oh its okay you don't really know what you are talking about/ have ability to help what you do, you /gay/bi/trans people are all just mentally ill." I have seen it in old textbooks from the 70s. I have read about it in old pamphlets. And after I have lived thru seeing many people in my family have divorces, and toxic relationships filled with abuse, and so many stupid vapid arguments over nothing turn into dangerous physical attacks.....there are many times where beloved family members and partners turn into 'what ifs?' in the back of my mind. 'What if you and I lived not so long ago, and we were having these typical awful family spats, or I wasn't living up to your normal expectations. Would you have considered me enough of an inconvenience to have put me thru a lobotomy or into an institution, just to shut me up? ...Or just with good intentions, to make me 'feel better?' To make me less of an awkward embarrassment at dinners, and when you brought me out in public as a little kid, and I didn't know what was polite and what was 'too mouthy' to say around grown ups??' I just..... want to feel like I know they would love me and treat me right and continue to take care of me in spite of my flaws as they have chosen to still do, in EVERY incarnation of reality and timeline.... but I know that is impossible to know for sure. It's not just this I guess so much what truly hurts me but the fact that my mom, the one who told me all my life to avoid the mentally ill, to stop acting out like a mentally ill person, to stop doing the things I love and being the person I truly am, because people will not get me and I will not learn how to be in the 'real' world..............got mentally ill and institutionalized. And I did not. I keep wondering and waiting if my own time will come. If not by some crazy life circumstances or personal sorrows then just mere chemical imbalances I am not aware of or am too frightened to treat at the risk of ending up just like her, an emotionless miserable numb husk. I keep wondering, if I have children with the man I love someday, will my demons catch me, will I become like Beatrice and not be able to handle being a parent properly? Will the post partum get me like it did my grandmother and mother before me, and turn me into a wreck? Will I be fine, but everyone else will suspect me of going off, every waking little moment I show emotions or irrationality, because I am frustrated or sad, for whatever reasons, hence always ready to see me put away at best notice?? I....I don't really care anymore, I guess, if it truly was for my own safety and other's safety and good. If I was like my mother right now, where I had been recently accusing random strangers of trying to 'murder' me and having panic attacks over the phone, calling her own family 'imposters' or 'terrorists'....then I guess I would rather be lucid and safe to be around too. I just.....sorry. I know this rant is a terrible long aimless one. I am appreciative of anyone with any feedback. Thank you.
Fuck...Over the Internet, I may seem cold and mechanical, but I am genuinely sorry. That is so tragic, and you are so brave for telling the story in so much detail. Unfortunately, there is literally nothing I can say to help. I wish there was, but I lack the knowledge or understanding. Just know that there are people who, if they can't help, at least want to help.
Oh wow... I'm so sorry. I really wish that we could talk about it outside of a RUclips comments thread. I'd love to help.
God, I am really sorry for you and your mom.I'm so sorry that I can't help with anything, I really wish I could. Please, please if you can, go to a therapist, you need to talk about this with someone who can help you. I don't know you, but I don't want you to be mentally ill because of all your situation. Maybe he can recommend you some ways to prevent that the illness expresses if it's genetic. And if it's not, you would avoid to develope it. I really hope your mom gets better, and if you have any bad situation through your life, you have the strength to overcome. I wish you and your family the best!
Avocado Smash Damn, I read the whole thing, you need a fucking hug. I am so sorry about what happened to your mom, and the way those thoughts plague you absolutely horrifies me because I felt that way about my mom. Now I know I don’t ever want anything like that to happen to her. I sincerely wish you a better much happier future. ❤️
As someone who had sunk into depression(perhaps a light one, I wouldn't know for sure since my mom doesn't believe in many mental illnesses and would never took me or my bi-polar brother to the doctor), I can feel your pain to some extent. It's so hard when I kept driving people away, having them openly comment on how I was annoying, and tell me that I sound mentally insane. Having a father who keeps telling you that your life is a failure and a waste, and wishing you were aborted did not help, either.....
I found my strength within myself by choosing to keep only a few true friends who wouldn't belittle me and would support me all the way, even if I didn't believe in myself. Now after 2 years of collegr I'm going back to my country and live back with my family, along with my brother, who have anger issues and would kick me or hit me out of spite, and my mother's enablement on his behavior. I wish I will find strength in all my friend's blessings, even though we'd be thousand miles apart.
Earlier in the episode Honey tells Beatrice ice cream is a boys snack and she should eat a sugar coated lemon cause that’s a “healthy girls snack”
When Beatrice’s dad comes out to tell her mom is ready to see her, she’s eating a sugar coated lemon
In a way, Joseph himself is emotionally lobotomized. He fails to recognize that the grief Honey felt from losing her son is something that anyone would experience if they lost someone they loved. Instead of at least trying to properly help Honey or grieve alongside her, he refuses to express or acknowledge what he calls "womanly emotions," which are just natural and expected responses to a tragedy, and becomes hollow towards his wife's suffering. In his own way, Joseph has half a mind, as he stays empty and apathetic throughout this entire ordeal and just tries to make Honey as empty as he is. Eventually, he not only succeeds in reducing Honey into nothing but a shell of who she once was, but he also makes Beatrice empty as well. She learns to never love anyone in the way Honey loved Crackerjack, to the point where she can't even love Bojack, her own son.
He lost his son to friendly fire and didn't care
She really took her advice to heart and never loved anyone Im 💀
This legitimately made me cry. To miss someone so much it hurts to be normal and on top of it to have a douchey spouse that thinks a lobotomy fixes everything is just an awful thing to go through.
Kaori Nishidake remember that this took place in the 1950s and that Joseph did what he thought would help fix Honey.
@@CannonZeroKiryu, actually that was 1940s
This scene makes me tear/cry up every time but for some reason I can't help but keep coming back to it.
This show is hands down the best and well written show's I've ever seen, it's a fcking master-piece and so much more.
Especially this season, it was beyond anything I've ever seen and I could watch it for years to come, over and over without coming anywhere near boredom.
Fax
This family was broken to begin with, but war just destroyed them...
“Well that’s the half you can keep!”
I hate that last line. Just left unfinished. It's so... haunting. It just leaves me feeling so sad
That's the idea.
I think I feel even worse thinking that her mom might have agreed to it on her own terms to run away from her own emotions. instead shes stuck in her own limbo hell where she never really recovered.
W H Y I H A V E H A L F A M I N D
@@SirGrimLockSmithVIII I wish it could
*awkward silence*
The only show that makes u feel bad in ways u never thought possible
If you think about it, Joseph Sugarman is kind of the person to blame for everything. Joseph himself representing the ideas of corporate greed, toxic masculinity, and entitlement.
Frontal Lobe: *_Exists_*
_Doctors: _*_I'm about to end this whole man's career._*
"Why I have half a mind-"
Only this show can leave me this confused about if I should laugh or cry.
This scene always feels weird to me. On the one hand, it's heart breaking what happens to Honey. On the other hand, the whole sequence with her ended leading up to a god-tier pun.
The previous 3 seasons I was would binge the entire season over 2 days. This episode stopped me flat and I had to take a break of a few days before continuing the rest of the season. So well done, but such a sucker punch to the gut.
beatrice tried to love anyway. she tried to love corbin creamerman, as she tried to love butterscotch. but she felt what honey felt. love causes pain, and she was never able to love again, not in her sane mind
The way she said "I have half a mind" is so terrifying. It felt robotic. Like she was programmed to say it. Almost as if that was quite literally what happened. They took half of her, he had them take half of her because he didn't like how she was acting.
Also the "She'd like to *meet youu* very much" like??? He knows what he did. It's so messed up, he doesn't have a heart.
It's interesting that Joesph Sugermen was evil in a different way. He was supportive and was there for his family, but it was eery and horrifying with how he kept a happy demeanor to save that image of a perfect family. He did his wife's wishes, he tried to hide any horrors from Beatrice and worked. But he was no saint.
That's the thing, he's NOT there for his family. He's only around when things are happy and easy. The hard stuff - grief, depression, sickness - he's not supportive with any of that.
@@pavarottiaardvark3431 that's true. But when Honey couldn't even take care of herself, Joseph took.over as the primary parental figure
I don’t know, I suspect he didn’t exactly do anything to _raise_ his daughter. He probably just paid the servants who kept her alive while he was sneaking “pretty pills” into her food and taking away her things and sending her off to live-in schools. There’s a difference between actually raising a child and just living next to them and abusing and controlling them.
“Why I have half a mind”
That line gets me every time 😭
English isn’t my first language, could you explain it to me?
natylee knowing No problem! It’s a reference to her lobotomy (a medical procedure involving cutting out part of the brain) and her forgetting her daughter and identity/herself
Hope this helps! :)
What scares me is that it was partially honeys choice right? She was so ready to forget and cure her depression she would do anything.
The moment you realized if you lived back then you'd have had the same thing...
“what did they do to you?” is such a sad line
Bojack Horseman Season 4: How to horrify the audience and make them feel bad for a bad mother
That smile from Honey is what disturbs me the most. The relaxed eyelids as though she's half asleep. The dilated pupils looking off into space instead of Beatrice or anything in particular. The undercircles. The weakness in her voice. The pitiful attempt to reassure her daughter and the viewer that it will all be okay, even though it will never be true.
It's the last dying gasp of the cheerful and warm spirited woman we first saw. Haunting.
“Love does things to a person. Terrible things”
Favorite line in this whole series.
Throughout the entire series, all the dialogue is so... natural. But this, it starts breaking. It's all too frantic, it gets cut off randomly, and it creates a debilitating sense of Unease. and that's why I love this show.
Going back to this episode, I realized that I hadn't paid much attention to the previous scene. I know that there is a definite note of cruelty to Joseph's decision to have his wife lobotomized. However, after she wrecks the car she gets on her knees and begs him to be fixed. I think that says a lot about the end result. A damaged person who was willing to do anything to not feel broken anymore, a path that her grandson Bojack has opted for as well.
There are so many in the comments whose grandparents went through this. I had no Idea
The most incredible thing is that Beatrice never hated her father, she always talk good things about him and he basically ruined her life.
Edit: He didn't exactly want to, but in the end, he did.
Sounds like my narcissistic mother
When people defend "FlareHead" because "his daughter doesn't hate him as much." He's just a stressed man who doesn't know any better and also cares about his reputation. Don't hate him!! (By the way, he also mentally broke his wife and confined her to a psychiatric center). And no, he never receives real consequences for his actions, but nobody cares because the author took it upon himself to emotionally manipulate the audience
Joseph makes all men look bad.
The family probably would have been OK if he let her run the company
What hits about this scene just a little harder, is she's pretty much emotionless now, and emotions have to do with the frontal lobe. She literally has half a mind.
Wonder if Honey subconsciously loved Crackerjack more because he resembled her unlike Beatrice who looked almost exactly like the horrible man she married
OOOOH SHIT YOU JUST BLEW MY MIND GUY OH SHIT OH SHIT
Didn't her mom tell her something along the lines of "Iced cream is for boys. Put a little sugar on a slice of lemon, that's a healthy girls snack."? It's kind of funny that right before the scene where her mother tells her never to love anyone like she loved her son they show Beatrice sucking on a lemon, following her advice.
i love that bojack horseman is a show that went where no other show dared to
Can’t help but notice that he looks away from Beatrice twice while talking. Perhaps a bit of guilt?
Honestly this scene left me terrified, hurt and most of all angry
That scar is a permanent smile.
I remember learning abt this in psychology, I watched the show first and it never even picked up that this happened to her.
What makes this even more sad is that she wanted the operation, she begged her husband to fix her after she was lead to believe something was wrong with her for grieving over the loss of her son.
Mental health wasn't focused on all that much back then and it didn't help that her husband wasn't there for her but was more uncomfortable and even embarrassed by her sorrow.
She didn’t want to be lobotomized specifically, she just wanted to be fixed. And he’s the reason she ended up thinking she was broken, and got so impulsive and desperate in the first place. The reason Honey’s grief for Crackerjack became so overwhelming, and why she ended up snapping at the party, was because no one would talk to her about it and kept trying to get her to push it down, especially Joseph. He kept telling her that her womanly emotions were getting out of control way before she did anything reckless, and neglecting her emotionally. He went to live in the city to flirt with his secretary while leaving her and Beatrice in the countryside amongst strangers until Honey could get her “hysteria” under control. Leaving her all alone with no one to talk to but her daughter, while being gaslit into thinking she was deranged for her sadness.
Poor Beatrice, she gets traumatized. And she didn't tell nobody until when her son Bojack grown up and she told him about her mother Honey's brain cutted in half
Cutted isn't a word
Matthew Broderick has voiced characters in both Bojack Horseman and Rick and Morty that's caused trama to the main characters
Beatrice probably wanted to love Bojack but was afraid to because of this moment. In fact, I believe she definitely wanted to.
To quote:
"The Lobotomy, or the worst Nobel Prize ever awarded"
Joseph is the most perplexing character I have ever seen in bojack horseman
Yes what he did was wrong a shitty but It's not like he didn't love his family, and in "Times Arrow" he seemed to regret the lobotomy
Also I know how the burning scene seemed incredibly fucked up
But then again Beatrice's stuff was infected and dangerous
Brandon Harris we see the point of view of Beatrice, Who was Just a child.
And in the present we see the world through bojack's eyes. A depressed horse. That's why this series is that pessimist
he regretted it because of his own greed. she didn't do much
I've seen a lot of messed up shit in my life but something about this episode, and this scene especially, is just utterly horrifying to me. Like, it's great writing, but I almost wish I could un-watch it.
The fact that earlier in the episode she said "why I have half a mind to love you"
And her last lines in the episode are "why I have half a mind" never finishing the sentence, shows that she is half the person she was. half of a woman, only stating facts, and not acknowledging emotions, or love.
I'm not good at deconstructing things
Never noticed that
@@spanishinquisition5032 I didn't expect you
@@MorbyLol nobody does
This was like a horror movie
Oh god was this a lot to take in. Jesus Christ can this show be heavy.
Joseph broke Beatrice - and in extension Bojack.
Death comes in many ways
Jesus Christ, Matthew Broderick horse!
That's him?