Also, if if you wield a two handed weapon, the Dex fighter with a shield will probably have the same AC as a strength fighter because they can’t carry a shield
Am I reading this right? A Dex fighter would go from an AC of 17 (12 studded leather + 3 Dex bonus + 2 shield) to a 20 (15 half plate + 3 Dex + 2 shield) at level 4 by taking this feat
Sorry that this comment is months late. But my peeve with strength is that some of the Pros of Strength are mutually exclusive. For example,the use two handed weapons, cost the opportunity to use a shield, lowering AC. This trade mainly becomes worth it if you invest feats. While shoves are fine, the ability to grapple costs a free hand, which would sacrifice both the AC from the shield and the damage from 2 handed weapons. Using a longsword to get around this, you lose GWM. So if i want a defensive build, it seems that the decision is high dex as opposed to 1 AC
PHB page 147: Two-Handed. This weapon requires two hands when you attack with it. Meaning that you can HOLD a two handed weapon with one hand but cannot WEILD it with one hand
Does anyone else think that the longbow at least should be strength based? Like for pull weight it makes sense, and then the Strength players have a reliable ranged option.
No. A strength requirement might make sense, like the oversized longbow has(REQ: 18 STR), and in fact that bow does use your strength modifier do to the heavy draw(it has a long range of 600ft). But otherwise no, you're not hurling the arrow with your arm-strength. DEX is the correct modifier, but maybe a strength requirement of 13 to make attacks without disadvantage. The longbow is a heavy weapon after all.
Maybe you should be able to use either with the long bow. You could say on one hand, "My dexterity allows me to aim true, in spite of this weapon's heavy draw.", or on the other hand, "My strength allows me draw back the bowstring with ease, so I may focus more on my aim." Both would be valid, where with the short bow you'd have to use DEX and with the oversized longbow you'd have to use STR.
I think all those uncommon strengths boosting item are a plus for dex more than strength cause you can dump strength the just get some gloves to fix it
I can't imagine why it would use dexterity. It's essentially a glorified stick, and your damage will most likely depend on your strength of the pierce, not the way you attack with it. As long as you make sure it's a thrust, there isn't anything particularly dexterous about using spears
@@lecommentar9851 dex is also agility which applies to situations such as acceleration... A spear finding weak points and accelerating at speed makes sense for dexterity, the weight of the thrust depends on body weight not str.
@@theycallmesquishyyy7007 I actually agree with you 2 months later. In fact, I think swords would logically use dexterity as well, while bows should be using strength.
@@lecommentar9851 this is unironically correct, at least long bows should be able to use str, a huge area of weakness for str builds is the lack of reach and to be clear, there is no reason a str build can not use a bow accurately and with enough draw power. Hell technically there are (unique) long swords that can use finesse so why not give us str based bows, it wouldn't break the game or be unrealistic. There could also be a sword mastery feat that at least allows for dexterity to use certain swords and spears and even add additional armor to be competitive in melee (due to lack of plate) but in their own way, while avoiding traditionally str based weapons such as great axes and war hammers while allowing str based users to use heavier bows. It would tie DnD closer to realism while allowing for a greater variety of builds to be played. Str also needs more incentive for certain casters such as clerics imo but when discussing martials, a bit more interchangability and variety would be nice. There should also be more complimentary use of dex/str in builds because it's kind of awkward every althetic str build is a clumsy fighter while every dexterous fighter is pulling back a 125lb plus draw weight bow every second, shooting 40 arrows per minute not to nerf/buff dex/str builds but they need a reason to be building both, not just one or the other, even if they don't have to.
I’m more a fan of gun-toting assassin type characters using their superior movement and dextrous skill to outmaneuver and take their opponents out by aiming into weak spots. Also, Kensei Monks can pick up stuff like Longswords, Warhammers and Battleaxes and use them with Dex.
Hey folks let me know your own thoughts on this discussion down here. Do you prefer strength or dexterity builds and why? Don't forge to share the video!
I don’t have a preference, but I do think every party should have at least one of each. It doesn’t need to be perfectly balanced but it at least gives the party options.
Be a Thri-Kreen and build dex unarmored will give you 13 AC plus the dex. Dual wield to get a AC plus 1. You can dual wield with a shield since you got four hands.
2nd level of dex paladin (16dex) 12AC from studded leather +3AC from dex + 2AC from shield + 1AC defensive style on 2nd level. also you can take defensive duelist feat, so with reaction that will allow you to use reaction once per turn, so your AC on 2nd level is 18(with reaction in melee 20) and on 17 lvl it skyrockets to its maximum of 20AC+6ACfor melee reaction Am i wrong here?)
Funny you should ask since I was just working on a script for a video on homebrew rules. Personally I’m a big fan, although some of it (especially classes) can be hard to pull off. Homebrew items are super fun, and I don’t know any DMs who play 100% by the rules without at least a little homebrew
You can really ignore the AC, carrying capacity, grappling and flair for str as pros because of how meager they are. 1 ac difference at all levels of play is dwarfed by dex saves, especially at higher levels where enemy bonus to hit far outpaces the AC of player characters. Carrying is never used, but if it is it can even be at a disadvantage to STR characters, especially if the DM decides to go for variant encumbrance, because of the weight of STR equipment, DEX PCs will end up carrying more, since their kit weighs less. For grappling to be good you need to build a character for it. Otherwise it can be just a wasted attack because there's rarely a reason why an enemy would want to move away from you, AoO and the cost of disengage lock them in position during combat. What's worse is that you need to give up attacking or your shield, which just screws you action economy. Flair is subjective, I can make an equally flashy DEX fighter, in my eyes at least, still wont give me any mechanical advantage. As much as I adore STR focused characters DEX is king by a landslide. You presenting STR pros as equals to DEX pros shows your bias towards STR, you tried. 1 AC and situational benefits of grappling or carrying capacity (if applicable) have nothing against tangible benefits DEX saves, initiative and stealth provide. The gap grows larger if you consider the cost in gp to catch up with DEX. Really wish STR had something more to bring to the table except for flavor and melee damage.
Late, but don't forget many wind up with a bag of holding. Something that weighs like 15 lbs and can carry like 500 lbs. So even a STR of 1 can carry 500 lbs, meaning you'll carry most of your stuff with a 1 STR investment.
I like how he mentions Strength based magic items but neglects to mention they are flat stat effects, a belt of Giants Strength is arguably better on a dex fighter because he never invested points into strength to begin with and now has a 19 to match the Strength fighter. Also the AC bonus he keeps talking about is only relevant vs. Plate which you wont be able to afford until mid-game anyway so Dex has higher AC at the start of the game. Also saying "Duel wielding" gets muddy is just a lie, Dex benefits more and the extra attack is better than greater damage dice, especially if you are re-rolling 1's. All ignoring the oppressive advantages of Stealth, Initiative and Range capability; Dex still comes out on top. Dex is the best stat in the game and you should be abusing it exclusively in the early game before magic items negate all those points you invested into strength bonuses. Never Str, always Dex and Con.
It really bothers me how overblown people treat a d8 over a d6 and a 10 over d8 for example. It really isn't that much better and even though TWF kinda sucks in 5e, even a flat 1d6 of a chance for damage is probably going to be more helpful than the slightly higher die from the "great weapons". Of course ignoring feats, but then that moves to Dex range and STR melee, and we all know which one is better between and hand cross bow vs a glaive.
*SHOW ME* a first-level character who can even *afford* full plate armor. Go ahead, I dare you. Or is that first-level, high-strength fighter going to have chainmail (AC 16) for five or six levels up against the DEX fighter's studded leather (AC 15 and then ... oh, notes! ... 16 starting at level 4 or so?) Armor in 5e is a bad joke. A DEX character can dance around in light armor and suffer only a truly INSIGNIFICANT AC penalty compared to the clown running around in extremely expensive Plate armor ... and going last because of his cr@p DEX. And kindly quit pooh-poohing missile weapons just because you don't like them. The damage difference between a heavy crossbow and a greataxe amounts to an average of ONE POINT per attack. The difference between longbow and Warhammer is ZERO ... unless your opponents are on the other side of a ravine or river, in which case ... for *AT LEAST* the first five levels of play ... the axe wielder does ZERO damage.
I'm really glad I went with Dexterity when I made my Eldritch Knight. Her longbow can go where no silly javelin can and with two short swords, she can comfortably do melee even when we have a sword and board Paladin with smites.
Don't forget taking in the meta builds for weapon and feats (gonna ignore class features because they'll cancel each other out 95% of the time, but we will us a more standard build of just one extra attack as that is what most classes get, so sorry fighter). Hand Crossbow: 1d6 + DEX per attack Sharpshooter: gaining that -5 attack/+10 damage Crossbow Expert: for that bonus action attack We'll assume a DEX of 5 for this and use per 1d6 as it is the average of that die roll, also just assume all attacks hit So the math for that comes 3d6 + (3*Dex) + (3*10) or (3*3.5) + (3*5) + (3*10) = 10.5 + 15 + 30= 55.5 Glaive (or halberd): 1d10 + STR Great Weapon Master: gaining that -5 attack/+10 damage Polearm Master: for that bonus action attack granting 1d4 + STR (the reaction is a little too situational at times and can easily get cancelled out by the fact the hand crossbow has range) We'll assume a STR of 5 for this and use 2.5 per the 1d4, and 5.5 per 1d10 because averages, and again assuming all attacks hit So the math for that comes to 2d10 + 1d4 + (3*STR) + (3*10) = (2*5.5) + 2.5 + (3*5) + (3*10) = 11 + 2.5 + 15 + 30 = 58.5 That damage really isn't that much greater and that is with being generous enough to not include the chance to hit calculations and fighting styles. Otherwise the DEX would easily be on top, but even without such, that DEX build does have actual range, which means it could start procking those attacks before the STR build.
Also, if if you wield a two handed weapon, the Dex fighter with a shield will probably have the same AC as a strength fighter because they can’t carry a shield
I was in one game where every character had a Str of 8, we were literally a party of 98 pound weaklings.
Just another reason I hope to see STR be valued a bit more highly in the next edition
Dex users who are proficient in medium armor can get medium armor master to get 18ac from half plate and no disadvantage on stealth
Am I reading this right?
A Dex fighter would go from an AC of 17 (12 studded leather + 3 Dex bonus + 2 shield) to a 20 (15 half plate + 3 Dex + 2 shield) at level 4 by taking this feat
@itsmegiorgio yep, it's losing a feat, but getting heavy armor benefits without sacrificing stealth
You can wear plate armour without having high strength. Your speed is just reduced by 10 feet
Sorry that this comment is months late. But my peeve with strength is that some of the Pros of Strength are mutually exclusive.
For example,the use two handed weapons, cost the opportunity to use a shield, lowering AC. This trade mainly becomes worth it if you invest feats.
While shoves are fine, the ability to grapple costs a free hand, which would sacrifice both the AC from the shield and the damage from 2 handed weapons. Using a longsword to get around this, you lose GWM.
So if i want a defensive build, it seems that the decision is high dex as opposed to 1 AC
It's unfortunate, especially since you get the coolest weapons with STR builds
PHB page 147:
Two-Handed. This weapon requires two hands when you attack with it.
Meaning that you can HOLD a two handed weapon with one hand but cannot WEILD it with one hand
Does anyone else think that the longbow at least should be strength based? Like for pull weight it makes sense, and then the Strength players have a reliable ranged option.
No. A strength requirement might make sense, like the oversized longbow has(REQ: 18 STR), and in fact that bow does use your strength modifier do to the heavy draw(it has a long range of 600ft). But otherwise no, you're not hurling the arrow with your arm-strength. DEX is the correct modifier, but maybe a strength requirement of 13 to make attacks without disadvantage. The longbow is a heavy weapon after all.
Maybe you should be able to use either with the long bow. You could say on one hand, "My dexterity allows me to aim true, in spite of this weapon's heavy draw.", or on the other hand, "My strength allows me draw back the bowstring with ease, so I may focus more on my aim." Both would be valid, where with the short bow you'd have to use DEX and with the oversized longbow you'd have to use STR.
You clearly have never wielded a bow in real life. The medieval longbow required strength to pull@@foxtrotalphaone
I think all those uncommon strengths boosting item are a plus for dex more than strength cause you can dump strength the just get some gloves to fix it
It fells so sad to start the game with 20 strength then find a giant belt, to put it and nothing to change.
i find it odd, that spears use strength, but i still find em awesome, it isn't just poking, it is piercing through their armor and their spine.
I can't imagine why it would use dexterity. It's essentially a glorified stick, and your damage will most likely depend on your strength of the pierce, not the way you attack with it. As long as you make sure it's a thrust, there isn't anything particularly dexterous about using spears
@@lecommentar9851 dex is also agility which applies to situations such as acceleration... A spear finding weak points and accelerating at speed makes sense for dexterity, the weight of the thrust depends on body weight not str.
@@theycallmesquishyyy7007 I actually agree with you 2 months later. In fact, I think swords would logically use dexterity as well, while bows should be using strength.
@@lecommentar9851 this is unironically correct, at least long bows should be able to use str, a huge area of weakness for str builds is the lack of reach and to be clear, there is no reason a str build can not use a bow accurately and with enough draw power.
Hell technically there are (unique) long swords that can use finesse so why not give us str based bows, it wouldn't break the game or be unrealistic. There could also be a sword mastery feat that at least allows for dexterity to use certain swords and spears and even add additional armor to be competitive in melee (due to lack of plate) but in their own way, while avoiding traditionally str based weapons such as great axes and war hammers while allowing str based users to use heavier bows. It would tie DnD closer to realism while allowing for a greater variety of builds to be played.
Str also needs more incentive for certain casters such as clerics imo but when discussing martials, a bit more interchangability and variety would be nice.
There should also be more complimentary use of dex/str in builds because it's kind of awkward every althetic str build is a clumsy fighter while every dexterous fighter is pulling back a 125lb plus draw weight bow every second, shooting 40 arrows per minute
not to nerf/buff dex/str builds but they need a reason to be building both, not just one or the other, even if they don't have to.
I’m more a fan of gun-toting assassin type characters using their superior movement and dextrous skill to outmaneuver and take their opponents out by aiming into weak spots.
Also, Kensei Monks can pick up stuff like Longswords, Warhammers and Battleaxes and use them with Dex.
DEX based characters can definitely be a fun style to play if you use that agility to move about the battlefield for sure
Yeah, was thinking of champion x /Kensei 4
Hey folks let me know your own thoughts on this discussion down here. Do you prefer strength or dexterity builds and why? Don't forge to share the video!
I don’t have a preference, but I do think every party should have at least one of each. It doesn’t need to be perfectly balanced but it at least gives the party options.
great videos man
Glad you like them!
strength wizard is the true gigachad
I cast PUNCH!
Be a Thri-Kreen and build dex unarmored will give you 13 AC plus the dex. Dual wield to get a AC plus 1. You can dual wield with a shield since you got four hands.
If you think STR has more "flair" you have lost your mind... (you did mention your bias, so as to be expected) Thanks for the video! Great job!!
2nd level of dex paladin (16dex)
12AC from studded leather +3AC from dex + 2AC from shield + 1AC defensive style on 2nd level.
also you can take defensive duelist feat, so with reaction that will allow you to use reaction once per turn,
so your AC on 2nd level is 18(with reaction in melee 20)
and on 17 lvl it skyrockets to its maximum of 20AC+6ACfor melee reaction
Am i wrong here?)
DEX is just better than STR in 5e. simple as is
I agree with your analysis even though I differ with your personal preference
What are your thoughts on on homebrews? Classes, magic items, rules etc?
Funny you should ask since I was just working on a script for a video on homebrew rules. Personally I’m a big fan, although some of it (especially classes) can be hard to pull off. Homebrew items are super fun, and I don’t know any DMs who play 100% by the rules without at least a little homebrew
You can really ignore the AC, carrying capacity, grappling and flair for str as pros because of how meager they are.
1 ac difference at all levels of play is dwarfed by dex saves, especially at higher levels where enemy bonus to hit far outpaces the AC of player characters.
Carrying is never used, but if it is it can even be at a disadvantage to STR characters, especially if the DM decides to go for variant encumbrance, because of the weight of STR equipment, DEX PCs will end up carrying more, since their kit weighs less.
For grappling to be good you need to build a character for it. Otherwise it can be just a wasted attack because there's rarely a reason why an enemy would want to move away from you, AoO and the cost of disengage lock them in position during combat. What's worse is that you need to give up attacking or your shield, which just screws you action economy.
Flair is subjective, I can make an equally flashy DEX fighter, in my eyes at least, still wont give me any mechanical advantage.
As much as I adore STR focused characters DEX is king by a landslide. You presenting STR pros as equals to DEX pros shows your bias towards STR, you tried. 1 AC and situational benefits of grappling or carrying capacity (if applicable) have nothing against tangible benefits DEX saves, initiative and stealth provide. The gap grows larger if you consider the cost in gp to catch up with DEX. Really wish STR had something more to bring to the table except for flavor and melee damage.
Late, but don't forget many wind up with a bag of holding. Something that weighs like 15 lbs and can carry like 500 lbs. So even a STR of 1 can carry 500 lbs, meaning you'll carry most of your stuff with a 1 STR investment.
I like how he mentions Strength based magic items but neglects to mention they are flat stat effects, a belt of Giants Strength is arguably better on a dex fighter because he never invested points into strength to begin with and now has a 19 to match the Strength fighter. Also the AC bonus he keeps talking about is only relevant vs. Plate which you wont be able to afford until mid-game anyway so Dex has higher AC at the start of the game. Also saying "Duel wielding" gets muddy is just a lie, Dex benefits more and the extra attack is better than greater damage dice, especially if you are re-rolling 1's. All ignoring the oppressive advantages of Stealth, Initiative and Range capability; Dex still comes out on top.
Dex is the best stat in the game and you should be abusing it exclusively in the early game before magic items negate all those points you invested into strength bonuses. Never Str, always Dex and Con.
It really bothers me how overblown people treat a d8 over a d6 and a 10 over d8 for example. It really isn't that much better and even though TWF kinda sucks in 5e, even a flat 1d6 of a chance for damage is probably going to be more helpful than the slightly higher die from the "great weapons". Of course ignoring feats, but then that moves to Dex range and STR melee, and we all know which one is better between and hand cross bow vs a glaive.
*SHOW ME* a first-level character who can even *afford* full plate armor. Go ahead, I dare you. Or is that first-level, high-strength fighter going to have chainmail (AC 16) for five or six levels up against the DEX fighter's studded leather (AC 15 and then ... oh, notes! ... 16 starting at level 4 or so?)
Armor in 5e is a bad joke. A DEX character can dance around in light armor and suffer only a truly INSIGNIFICANT AC penalty compared to the clown running around in extremely expensive Plate armor ... and going last because of his cr@p DEX.
And kindly quit pooh-poohing missile weapons just because you don't like them. The damage difference between a heavy crossbow and a greataxe amounts to an average of ONE POINT per attack. The difference between longbow and Warhammer is ZERO ... unless your opponents are on the other side of a ravine or river, in which case ... for *AT LEAST* the first five levels of play ... the axe wielder does ZERO damage.
I'm really glad I went with Dexterity when I made my Eldritch Knight. Her longbow can go where no silly javelin can and with two short swords, she can comfortably do melee even when we have a sword and board Paladin with smites.
Don't forget taking in the meta builds for weapon and feats (gonna ignore class features because they'll cancel each other out 95% of the time, but we will us a more standard build of just one extra attack as that is what most classes get, so sorry fighter).
Hand Crossbow: 1d6 + DEX per attack
Sharpshooter: gaining that -5 attack/+10 damage
Crossbow Expert: for that bonus action attack
We'll assume a DEX of 5 for this and use per 1d6 as it is the average of that die roll, also just assume all attacks hit
So the math for that comes 3d6 + (3*Dex) + (3*10) or (3*3.5) + (3*5) + (3*10) = 10.5 + 15 + 30= 55.5
Glaive (or halberd): 1d10 + STR
Great Weapon Master: gaining that -5 attack/+10 damage
Polearm Master: for that bonus action attack granting 1d4 + STR (the reaction is a little too situational at times and can easily get cancelled out by the fact the hand crossbow has range)
We'll assume a STR of 5 for this and use 2.5 per the 1d4, and 5.5 per 1d10 because averages, and again assuming all attacks hit
So the math for that comes to 2d10 + 1d4 + (3*STR) + (3*10) = (2*5.5) + 2.5 + (3*5) + (3*10) = 11 + 2.5 + 15 + 30 = 58.5
That damage really isn't that much greater and that is with being generous enough to not include the chance to hit calculations and fighting styles. Otherwise the DEX would easily be on top, but even without such, that DEX build does have actual range, which means it could start procking those attacks before the STR build.