The whole situation regarding the Edinburgh Trams is ridiculous and I say this as someone whose family is from Edinburgh. I regularly hear residents along the route complaining that the tram doesn't go anywhere useful, but the very same people were moaning or raising objections or making legal challenges during the planning and early construction. All the delays most certainly contributed to the cut backs. You honestly can't win with some people.
Honestly, as a resident along the route, the main complaint I now hear is just that they want the new extension and next line to open sooner. But already they go to the city centre, both of Edinburgh’s main train stations, and the airport, so most folk living vaguely nearby use them at least occasionally.
The Variobahn delivered to Croyden were actually ready built for Bybanen in Bergen and sat in storage waiting for delivery, as Stadler had spare capacity to build them earlier than scheduled. Bybanen in Bergen didn't need them for another year or so, so Stadler just repainted them green and could ship them to Croyden almost immediately. And then Stadler built new trams for Bybanen later.
Yeah. Just a bit of smart dealmaking, Stadler and Bergen had spare trams, Bergen was willing to wait, and Croydon needed more trams asap. Very smart all around. The Variobahns, while rather cheap for trams, are also pretty decent. They're also used in both Aarhus and Odense in Denmark where I'm from, with varying levels of success. They're reliable don't get me wrong, but in Odense in particular they have issues with noise, both from the vehicles and from the infrastructure being poorly built, but that's another story.
@@drdewott9154 this is also a nice example where just in time manufacturing would’ve been a lot less efficient than producing things a little ahead of time. I can’t wait for our economies on the whole to finally realise they went a bit too far in the “just-in-time” direction. I’m sure there were far too many warehouses sitting full in the 60s, but having no warehouses at all is clearly not the answer.
@@kaitlyn__L In fact one major push behind "just-in-time" manufacturing was in part due to the Japanese company Toyota and their Toyota Production System, which greatly helped reduce waste (through having car parts sit in warehouses while demand wasn't high) and brought them away from the brink of bankruptcy. It's high time to relook at the manufacturing style these days, now that demand is far higher than supply. EDIT: The Toyota Production System was quite good in theory, however everyone else failed to look at why it succeeded for Toyota in Japan (shorter domestic supply chains for instance) and implemented it in their own companies haphazardly.
@@scythal yeah this is the thing. what Toyota did was great for them, they got copied slightly worse, then copied worse again, then copied worse again. You can't just shoehorn something into every industry in every area and assume it'll be better.
Amount of work they needed to fit the system. They have no adjustable bogies just to start. The doors are not reliable and still scrape the platform to this day. The amount of money to fit the system should of got CR5000 instead.
I had a tour of Therapia Lane depot by a manager. I was even let to sit in the drivers seat (with the traction disabled) of a tram and saw underneath in the workshop. A very interesting day.
As someone who lives near enough to Edinburgh to drive but not so near that getting the train is easy or cheap i love the tram Park and ride. It's great. They're so cheap and frequent. I can't comment on wether It's better than what was there before or if it was worth it but I appreciate it
@@Zveebo Yeah, but at peak times they're full enough that you won't get a seat on the central part of the route, so they probably need to be that long. Either that or run more frequently, but they're already at every 7 minutes for a large chunk of the day; space them much closer and you're not going to have time for the turnaround at each end of the route.
I think the idea that the budget was reduced is a little incorrect. What happened was that the budget was spent before the project had got any real distance because the costs were way over budget. Cost control is not a forte of Scottish administrators (the Scottish parliament at 1000% of budget, ferries etc) and when it became clear that the whole of the initial idea would have cost multiples of the total original planned spend, it was the scope of the project that got cut, not the money. The main problem, as Jago says in his first video was the complete lack of knowledge as to what was under the ground in the places the contractors started to dig. There were unrecorded obstacles everywhere (sewers, wires, gas supplies, and even underground structures that had been covered over hundreds of years ago, all unrecorded by anyone) which slowed work to a crawl, and for which workarounds were needed at extra cost.
What was shocking was how badly the Edinburgh tram project was planned and managed - resulting in abysmal value for money for the taxpayers... as usual.
Edinburgh also had a shed load (maybe several sheds) full of track, sigalling and such. But now it is close to done down to Newhaven, and more possible. (I really do like the trams, very civilised) Oh, and as for a push, it works. On the line from Ilkeley to Leeds, the train ran out of battery or something, but the train from Bradford, coming up the same line, gave us a push and we got our connection to London. Can't do that on an aeroplane.
I live South Australia, just about as far away from Great Britain as you can get... but I just love your videos! Our local rail network was shut down in May 2019. It's last job for many decades was for moving grain from farms on Eyre Peninsula to Port Lincoln for export. Passenger movement ended many many decades ago, I can't recall any passenger trains in my 53 years on this planet although I can recall seeing old passenger cars in the Port Lincoln rail yards. There is nothing quite as sad as seeing once shiny rails turn rusty.
I see the same rusty rails in south east Queensland mate. The iconic line from Brisbane to Goondiwindi and through to Dirranbandi for example. The line ends at Charleville on the Westlander route, then you have to take a bus to Quilpie. The line from Brisbane through the Granite Belt to Wallangarra, on the NSW border is rusty too. Love trains and seeing rusty rails makes a grown man cry.
These tram videos always make me yearn to have our trams back here in Southampton; there used to be a rather extensive route covering from one end of the town to the other, before the main shopping way was pedestrianised, but there's still some rails hanging about, and I'm sure there'd be public interest if the roads were up to par.
I've never noticed tram lines in Soton - but it would be great to see some kind of light rail between Portsmouth and Southampton. Like you say, there are old lines, but also it should include the main population through the Soton suburbs to Fareham and Portsmouth along the A27. I'm sure there have been extra costs for Croydon, as well as the other 90s trams like Manchester, Sheffield and Nottingham, but it seems Edinburgh was on a 'HS2' scale of cost inflation, albeit much smaller.
As a Croydon girl im always interested in Tales from the Trams. I wascfascinated by the possibility of Edinburgh trams running in Croydon. Btw , I’d love a particular video about the history of Mitcham Junction .
I bet in hindsight Edinburugh were glad to have a lot of spare trams available. I mean - they are Urbos 3, and they have enough to run a service whilst the rest get rebuilt to remedy any cracks that would eventually appear - like the Urbos 3's in the West Midlands. At least they can be retrofitted with batteries for wireless running in super-conservation areas like around Birmingham Town Hall (yes - Birmingham has areas of historic significance too!)
The batteries are also useful for short extensions to the line, such as the spur down to Wolverhampton Rail Station. It's a fairly short extension, and not needing to put up wires keeps the costs down... in theory anyways, in practice, I'm sure it's gone way over budget.
When they were first introduced they were only every 20 mins, now they are every 2 or 3 mins at peak time and are very well used. The tram uses a route previously used by an infrequent train, every 40 mins. At the time they were introduced I was commuting from Merton Park (near Wimbledon) to Croydon. Now I have retired so only use the service to got to Wimbledon, occasionally I go to Croydon and link with the Gatwick Airport service. My only criticism is that you can't take bikes on the trams even at quiet times.
It hasn't changed much because every single extension plan has been cancelled. The only change has been one extra stop which was only built because of a shopping complex who presumably contributed to the cost.
@@davidbull7210 From wiki: 'The tram stop was provided and paid for as part of the development of the shopping centre.' I've read that there was always the idea to have a halt there once the derelict building became something, so the track had to run straight for the necessary distanct.
I wonder how unavoidable it is to have a radically customised tram-type for each town? After all, the Crich tram museum has vehicles from all over, and they all seem to get on together OK. Come to that, buses, though differing in detail, are all pretty much alike (maybe apart from the number of doors) and the big companies shift them around from town to town, and there is a flourishing second-hand market. Was there any attempt in the era of building 'new tram systems' when the various parties had a go at specifying a 'standard' tram type - preferably one already widely used in mainland Europe? Or are we doomed always to spend more than we need on custom vehicles, which can't then be sold on to another town?
Really it shouldn’t be complicated with a clear set of regulations. If some cities were minded they could do a massive joint order if they got tram/tram-train systems (or stock renewals) going within a few years of each other. Happened in Germany a while ago, several regions got together, worked out a common standard, and placed a bulk order with Stadler (I think). Everybody was happy, Stadler got a fat order, several German cities got relatively cheap trams
I mean, I generally agree with the idea. The problem is, just agreeing on a standard isn’t that realistic once a system is built. Changing your infrastructure is going to be much more expensive then paying a bit more for your vehicle orders. The project mentioned (called „Projekt VDV“, if somebody is interested) is quite cool though, especially since it wasn’t limited to Germany, but also involved Austria, so it was actually (somewhat) international. I think the better point to take away from this is: your system probably isn’t some unicorn, go look for cities who already have similar systems and work with them.
@@ricktownend9144 UK work together? We cant even decide if Brexit was a good idea, what type of brexit, and how to implement the deal we negotiated.... Add in Separatist issues (Scottish independence, CORNWALL devolution...) the closest thing we can all agree on in the UK is that we cant agree
Here in the US, the "PCC cars"* of the 1930s and '40s were kinda close to such a standard. They were used on a lot of streetcar (tram) systems all over the US and Canada. And after WW2, the design was licensed to manufacturers all over the world. Though even with them, some customization happened. Twin City Lines (TCRT, Minneapolis/St Paul), for example, ordered them a bit wider than standard, to match the width of their old, in-house wooden streetcars** -- and presumably any infrastructure built to their loading gauge. * Presidents' Conference Committee ** TCRT had been building their own wooden streetcars since 1898, after existing manufacturers' stock of the 1890s didn't perform well enough in Minnesota winters. TCRT also built them for several other cities' streetcar systems.
Thanks Jago, informative as ever. Here in Cambridge we desparately need an integrated tramway system. Instead in 2011 we got the 'Busway', effectively a roadway that is operated by specially adapted 'guided' buses. Whilst this system, deemed a 'White Elephant' by a Cambridge MP and opposed by many in the city, has been partially successful, it has failed since the guided roadway does not extend into the city, the buses having to join the normal roads, with all their familiar traffic problems. In effect the busway is a 'poorman's tramway' with all the disadvantages of conventional diesel buses (and potentially battery-powered vehicles) and few of the advantages of a tried-and tested, electricially powered tramway running on a separated trackway, as you show in your presentations and as operates in countless cities across the Continent.
The trams in Edinburgh and Croydon also have to mix in with ordinary traffic in some places. The alternative is an underground railway, and only London gets that sort of investment.
Variobahn is great! Greetings from Bergen. Come over and make a video. I will take you on a guided tour. I am responsible for the art project connected to the light rail here in Bergen. And a huge fan of your channel since I go to london and England very frequently! Cheers.
I've been wondering about the story on this for quite some time. Things did come to a head quite rapidly in the end before it was all sorted out. There were buffers being made at Haymarket to have that as the terminus while other parts towards York Place were still in progress. I remember large concrete blocks had suddenly appeared on my Saturday commute one morning. They lasted two weeks before they powers that be were finally told where to go and they disappeared.
I still think there could have been more useful routes in Edinburgh than massively increasing the street running down to Newhaven (and maybe Granton). There are many disused rail routes(not withstanding some of those have been turned into walkways/cycle routes) around the city which at least on the surface, seem like they could have been re-instated as tram routes. Maybe the plan is to make the hardest and most expensive route first.
I thought Edinburgh should have reinstated the Suburban network with a brand new underground section that went through the New and Old Towns. The Leith Walk part of the tram network is frankly a disaster and a failure of urban planning and design. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Suburban_and_Southside_Junction_Railway#/media/File:Suburbanrail.jpg
If you feel like it, maybe you could do a video on historic parts of Croydon? I know it's been inhabited for a while (earliest mention is a Will in 962 CE), but I'm not sure what survives from when.
Yes! This one! I’ve been spending more time in Croydon lately (for work, not by choice..!) but have been really growing unintentionally quite attached to the area in spite of all the concrete. It’s definitely a… curious place.
I love the Variobahns because they have more solo seats than the other varieties, and you can get put right from the nose or tail of the tram, rather than the middle of each end
Another tram video you could do is Dublin which is a mess since inception as they hadn’t two of the lines linked for years. Not British but eh it’s closer to Liverpool than to where I live. Also fun fact, many of the train / tram lines around Dublin used for commuter services once were to shuttle the rich British landlords in and out of the city as they lived in fashionable costal suburbs while the Irish were in squaller in the inner city. Not bitter, I promise…but it’s interesting how colonialism leaves a legacy in transport. There was a saying “all roads lead to Dublin” because that’s where British interests primarily were. Where I am from, the line was only built because Queen Victoria came on a long weekend once and caused a tourism boom. She was like the Kim K of her day
Much of the enthusiasm for HS2 is to enable politicians to do a quick in-and-out to their constituencies. It's like "we need their votes but how quick can I shake a hand, kiss a baby and be back at the Ivy for teatime? A hundred billion? Put me down for two."
Great video, when looking at 1:09 I wanted one of them messi burgers. dang..... I wish more towns had trams, buses just get stuck in traffic jams or cars (ubers) blocking bus lanes, e-scotters and cyclists in my town have a blatant disregard to traffic lights, using pavements, cycling in the middle of a bus lane without lights and wearing headphones. (OK Climbing off soap box) keep up the videos.
Edinburgh should really build a second line. Trams work a lot better when they are a network serving a larger area. Especially if they have a unified ticket system with other services like buses.
An extra line is in the "being talked about" stage, running from the Royal Infirmary, Little France and the BioQuarter to Granton. The big question with this route is how you get it across the Water of Leith. The river itself is tiny, but it's in a deep gorge - the existing Dean Bridge, which isn't remotely built to have trams running across it, is 106 feet above the water.
Yes, completion of the line is indeed not a second line. But an extension is always better than nothing. Though nice to hear that a second line is at least being talked about.
I finally got to ride on the Croydon Tram a few weeks ago and tick that off of UK tram systems I’ve ridden on. Edinburgh I’ve done many times and I look forward to trying the extension when complete.
As Croydon and much of South London that has it’s very own tram network. There were plans to build new tram lines in North London, West London and East London which I still think it should happen. Plus Edinburgh Tram is to extend to Port of Leith and Lower Granton forming a loop for the Edinburgh Tram. And to extend west to North Newbridge and south to Musselburgh. And a new tram network to be built from Wimbledon or Colliers Wood to Sutton that could take over the Thameslink Sutton Loop line .
...and everyone lived happily ever after... Well, until midnight when the trams turned back into pumpkins, and the planners turned back into mice and rats, the electricity got sold off to the highest bidder and Jago turned back into Harry Beck... And then the Seven Sisters turned up...
Modern trams are more like light railway systems than the buses-on-rails of yore. Old footage shows tramcars clanging it out with cars, cyclists and pedestrians. Now it's more like the railway block signalling system.
Something that is never mentioned about the Croydon trams is their magnetic braking system. They are powerful electro-magnets, normally carried about 25mm above the rail, onto which they drop when the driver makes an emergency brake application. Once energised, they exert a powerful magnetic grip on the steel rail, bringing the tram to a very sudden halt. They are provided because of the risk of pedestrians or vehicles obstructing a tram’s path.
Fantastic video Jago! Sometimes I ride The KVB system in Köln,Germany. It goes partly underground and over the River Rhein. The Trams seem older than Croydon, but maybe an idea for you to make a film here in Germany on the many trams we have in operation.
The K4000 was developed for cologne I think (probably based on earlier designs though), and then the design was later changed a bit for the CR4000. So yeah the trams are older, but they will be replaced in the following years. Also it's not a tram in cologne but a "Stadtbahn", or light rail.
Ref;To the standardized trams! The PCC'S were used in the US, had a set of parameters that made them semi- standard,as the lengths,and widths,and trucks[track Guage],were modified to suit the various properties! Otherwise,everything else was standardized!! Controls, seating,and basic elements of the cars,was available for usage on the systems! Both Boston,and Shaker Heights(Ohio-Cleveland suburb),had cars with left hand doors,for subway use,minor,built in modification! Anyway,hopefully you get the idea! By the way,PCC'S were more prevalent in Europe and Russia than in the United States! 10,000+,and many are still in operation! Thank you for the forum,Jago,and your sidebar excursions,are always interesting 👍 😉 😀 😊 🙏 🙂! Thank you 😇!
It's actually interesting that the Variobahn, though considered to be a typical tramcar (and many cities do use it as such), being low floor and such, is often used for LRT systems particularily those which are based of a proper railway when they aren't reusing old rails already like London. Case in point: One of the oldest users of the Variobahn is the Rhine-Neckar metropolis (i.e. the cities Ludwigshafen, Mannheim, Heidelberg, Weinheim and the various towns there) whose trams are connected by some narrow gauge railway lines. As an aside, the rails are still legally classified as this and some tram stops contain the name "Bahnhof" which shows their railway origins.
There were talks of extending the Network to Crystal Palace which would have been great but when Johnson and then Khan heard about it they both binned it. There's been talks about taking it Sutton but Khan binned it that too. All Khan is interested in is increasing the size of the ULEZ area.
Always a big fan of your tram videos, Jago! Especially as I see so many places I know very well in the footage 😅 The line about historic parts of Croydon definitely tickled me; they exist, honest! 😂
Trams are having something of a renaissance in Britain. You might like to visit the National Tramways Museum at Crich, and make another laconic video. There is a a TARDIS there, but I don't think it is in working order, so it is no use asking the Doctor for a lift! Thanks for uploading.
Does Croydon have one tram less than it should have? I’m guessing that the one involved in the Sandilands accident was scrapped but I haven’t heard of an extra new one being ordered to replace it.
Actually three teams short at the moment As well as 2551 which was involved in the Sandilands accident, 2547 and 2561 are both out of service long term and not expected to return until sometime in 2023
Sorry to be pedantic but TCL wasn't the tram operator. It was the *infrastructure* concessionaire. It sub-contracted tram operations to Tram Operations Ltd - a subsidiary of First Group.
To clarify: TCL was bought out by TfL but they just managed the infrastructure. TOL (Trams Operations Limited, owned by First) is still in private hands and operates the trams under a concession to TfL.
How about a vlog about the Tyne & Wear Metro and why it took 30 years to get to Sunderland and why hasnt it been extended as planned way back in early 1990s?
This is all very interesting. These are the kinds of stories we need to hear about public transport infrastructure and assets. Members of my local council here in Folkestone have broached the subject of trams. Speaking for myself, it doesn't seem like a very good idea because the proposal I know of is simply a line that uses a defunct branch line down to the harbour (intended to connect a car park that doesn't yet exist to where all the touristy things happen). I think we'd need a wider community network to support this, not to mention that a tramline would maintain a neighbourhood divide already exists due to the preexisting rails that have been closed off since their disuse. These things really need more debate before the council starts paying for things.
At least not selling those trams means having spares and parts for many years, reducing costs over the long run, and as you mentioned they may end up needing them for regular use.
Surprised the Edinburgh trams weren't offered to the Midland Metro. Our system runs on CAF Urbos 3 and is being expanded, although maybe retrofitting the battery packs would have been too difficult. Hope those Edinburgh trams don't have the same chassis cracking problem as ours and some of the Auzzie variants.
So Edinburgh use CAF Urbos 3s - just as well they've got some spares, given too many sharp corners and gradients will exceed the design specification of their bogie boxes, as the West Midlands Metro has discovered (another system that launched with ambitious plans, but has only one line - albeit extended three times, each taking several years to build, weaving through the city streets, for relatively short distances of a few hundred metres).
I understood the Variobahns were not as powerful as the 4000s and so were slower on the gradients. However the improved timetable thanks to the extra units was a godsend for those of us using the Wimbledon branch, as it meant the rush hour crushes (and they really were) became a little less sardine like. It's a shame the timetable has regressed to two every 15 mins on that branch now
Somewhere I have a photo of Edinburgh's Gogar Depot, full of shiny new trams, taken before the tramway opened. If I find it, I'll post it to your Facebook page.
The rest of the Edinburgh tram network is back in the news. They've started doing feasibility studies for the north and south lines. We're still in the early stages but we're starting the public conversation. Given how controversial the original line was, it must be a good sign that the Council even felt safe to commission the studies.
It's great to see it running. Last time I was in Edinburgh the tracks were partially laid, with no sign of any construction or contractors. The rails just ended abruptly in the street with tarmac beyond them. Looked really odd. As for cost and etc. Just like the debacle that was the construction of the parliament building in Holyrood. Lots of last minute changes and whimsical ideas. Politicians fail to understand the repercussions of changing a project, the knock on effect to items already ordered and being fabricated. The modifications to the project that may be required to carry the changes. The cost implications of redesigning, manufacturing of new parts or equipment and the disposal of stuff items that could have been been built long in advance. The lead times involved in manufacturing or supply of equipment. Politicians are clueless and cause setbacks and delays to projects that in most cases would have been much better if they hadn't stuck their noses in. Don't get me started on HS2 and all the flip flopping about. Must drive the project management, contractors and engineers potty.
Croydon has "sensitive areas". Well I never Jago. I lived in Waddon for 4 years, regularly travelled on the Tramlink and hardly noticed the "sensitive areas". I must have blinked far too often cos I obviously missed it 🤣🤣
Hi Jago. I use the Croydon tram via Wimbledon if ever I need to get to Croydon. TFL did have some plans about an extension into Sutton and a route was accepted. Then Covid and it all went quiet over there as the saying goes. Do you have any update or news to share on this?
Croydon has historically sensitive areas.... which may come as a surprise to... residents of croydon. ( that nice funeral directors near east croydon station has gone now, as has the in town mail sorting office that had a 60s charms, the asbestos filled allders store lies vacantly empty )
Croydon Tramlink could be useful if it ran every 12mins in the later evenings, a cold wait at Reeves Corner for tram home is no fun on a dark winter night
i don't even like the newer trams all that much (the earpiecing door closing tone is just 1 thing). but i did wonder where they came from. i thought they'd be replacing all the old ones but they never did. cool to know the backstory now
The Edinburgh trams should have just been given to Croydon. It would have been giving the trams from one branch of the British government to another branch on the British government. It just shows you how crazy and inefficient things are that one branch of British government already had extra trams but another branch decided to buy more from a different company.
The planned Edinburgh tram network wasn't shortened because the budget was reduced. It was shortened because the project was mismanaged and over budget so the money ran out. The budget made available for Edinburgh trams, from the Scottish Government, was never intended to pay for the full network anyway but rather for the line to the airport and the circle line in the north of the city. In the event only a line from the airport to the city centre was built and opened in 2014. The extension to Newhaven (part of the original plan) has been funded separately and is due to open in Spring 2023. Edinburgh Council intends to add the line to the South East and from Haymarket to Granton; but additional funding will be required for these further extensions (as was always the case). This video, along with the previous one about Edinburgh trams, is interesting but inaccurate in parts.
"...the following tram should be able to push it to the top" - * (asterisk) leads to small print stating that this depends on average weight of passengers and willingness for some of them to move to the other tram before pushing commences... 😬
Hi Jago. I know it's slightly off topic but were you aware of the 'minion' westbound at Dundonald Road tram stop? It's a sign (internally known as the minion) that tells the driver how many trams are occupying Wimbledon station. In theory the driver should wait at Dundonald Road whenever both 'eyes' are lit up
The whole situation regarding the Edinburgh Trams is ridiculous and I say this as someone whose family is from Edinburgh. I regularly hear residents along the route complaining that the tram doesn't go anywhere useful, but the very same people were moaning or raising objections or making legal challenges during the planning and early construction. All the delays most certainly contributed to the cut backs. You honestly can't win with some people.
They want them to magically appear overnight without any construction work to make it possible 💁🏻♀
Honestly, as a resident along the route, the main complaint I now hear is just that they want the new extension and next line to open sooner. But already they go to the city centre, both of Edinburgh’s main train stations, and the airport, so most folk living vaguely nearby use them at least occasionally.
It was massively overbudget and late. Let's not pretend the project was run well.
I've worked for several mobile companies and often the people complaining about lack of coverage are the same people protesting about new sites.
@Jon fair point but I'm struggling to think of any infrastructure project that's every been finished on time or within budget
That “Certain town planners” burn though. A 3rd Degree Burn delivered with grace.
Certain ? Lol so who are the others ?
Croydonisation is a term used in town planning circles, meaning 'let's knock down anything of interest and cover it in concrete.'
@@Macilmoyle Interesting.
"Zing. Oh no he didn't." This is the sort of priceless commentary that keeps me happily subscribed.
I would argue that Edinburgh currently has half a tram line rather than one full tram line.
I'm pleased to hear that TFL and TCL are keeping up the decades-old tradition of railway companies suing each other.
We heard rumours that a certain Mr Yerkes' grandchildren are working for TFL...
The Variobahn delivered to Croyden were actually ready built for Bybanen in Bergen and sat in storage waiting for delivery, as Stadler had spare capacity to build them earlier than scheduled. Bybanen in Bergen didn't need them for another year or so, so Stadler just repainted them green and could ship them to Croyden almost immediately. And then Stadler built new trams for Bybanen later.
Yeah. Just a bit of smart dealmaking, Stadler and Bergen had spare trams, Bergen was willing to wait, and Croydon needed more trams asap. Very smart all around.
The Variobahns, while rather cheap for trams, are also pretty decent. They're also used in both Aarhus and Odense in Denmark where I'm from, with varying levels of success. They're reliable don't get me wrong, but in Odense in particular they have issues with noise, both from the vehicles and from the infrastructure being poorly built, but that's another story.
@@drdewott9154 this is also a nice example where just in time manufacturing would’ve been a lot less efficient than producing things a little ahead of time.
I can’t wait for our economies on the whole to finally realise they went a bit too far in the “just-in-time” direction. I’m sure there were far too many warehouses sitting full in the 60s, but having no warehouses at all is clearly not the answer.
@@kaitlyn__L In fact one major push behind "just-in-time" manufacturing was in part due to the Japanese company Toyota and their Toyota Production System, which greatly helped reduce waste (through having car parts sit in warehouses while demand wasn't high) and brought them away from the brink of bankruptcy. It's high time to relook at the manufacturing style these days, now that demand is far higher than supply.
EDIT: The Toyota Production System was quite good in theory, however everyone else failed to look at why it succeeded for Toyota in Japan (shorter domestic supply chains for instance) and implemented it in their own companies haphazardly.
@@scythal yeah this is the thing. what Toyota did was great for them, they got copied slightly worse, then copied worse again, then copied worse again. You can't just shoehorn something into every industry in every area and assume it'll be better.
Amount of work they needed to fit the system. They have no adjustable bogies just to start. The doors are not reliable and still scrape the platform to this day. The amount of money to fit the system should of got CR5000 instead.
I had a tour of Therapia Lane depot by a manager. I was even let to sit in the drivers seat (with the traction disabled) of a tram and saw underneath in the workshop. A very interesting day.
As someone who lives near enough to Edinburgh to drive but not so near that getting the train is easy or cheap i love the tram Park and ride. It's great. They're so cheap and frequent. I can't comment on wether It's better than what was there before or if it was worth it but I appreciate it
Seeing them alongside the Croydon Trams really does emphasise just how crazily long the Edinburgh Trams actually are!
Well really more how short the Croydon trams are
@@grassytramtracks Well both really. The Edinburgh Trams are long even by international standards.
@@Zveebo Yeah, but at peak times they're full enough that you won't get a seat on the central part of the route, so they probably need to be that long. Either that or run more frequently, but they're already at every 7 minutes for a large chunk of the day; space them much closer and you're not going to have time for the turnaround at each end of the route.
@@Michael75579 True, though they did manage to operate a brief period of 3.5m frequency pre-Covid in rush hour, so it is possible.
In Dresden, Germany (500. 000 inhabitants) we also have fairly long trams (45m). I can't imagine having shorter trams.
It’s really shocking how the Edinburgh Tram Budget was drastically reduced. It would’ve been nice with an extensive network.
Well, actually, it doubled......they managed to spend twice as much as they planned, on a much smaller system.
Me living in Africa - what’s a tram? 😂
No seriously Edinburgh should donate those extra ones 😭
I think the idea that the budget was reduced is a little incorrect. What happened was that the budget was spent before the project had got any real distance because the costs were way over budget. Cost control is not a forte of Scottish administrators (the Scottish parliament at 1000% of budget, ferries etc) and when it became clear that the whole of the initial idea would have cost multiples of the total original planned spend, it was the scope of the project that got cut, not the money. The main problem, as Jago says in his first video was the complete lack of knowledge as to what was under the ground in the places the contractors started to dig. There were unrecorded obstacles everywhere (sewers, wires, gas supplies, and even underground structures that had been covered over hundreds of years ago, all unrecorded by anyone) which slowed work to a crawl, and for which workarounds were needed at extra cost.
It went seriously over budget and was quite mis managed. Much had to be redone. I was there when it happened.
What was shocking was how badly the Edinburgh tram project was planned and managed - resulting in abysmal value for money for the taxpayers... as usual.
Edinburgh also had a shed load (maybe several sheds) full of track, sigalling and such. But now it is close to done down to Newhaven, and more possible. (I really do like the trams, very civilised)
Oh, and as for a push, it works. On the line from Ilkeley to Leeds, the train ran out of battery or something, but the train from Bradford, coming up the same line, gave us a push and we got our connection to London. Can't do that on an aeroplane.
...that's because aeroplanes have pointy ends...
Project Seagull = seagull management? Flies in, make a lot of noise, turns over all the bins, cr#ps everywhere and flies if again…
also if the film was anything to go by, they keep on crying, "mine mine"
I live South Australia, just about as far away from Great Britain as you can get... but I just love your videos! Our local rail network was shut down in May 2019. It's last job for many decades was for moving grain from farms on Eyre Peninsula to Port Lincoln for export. Passenger movement ended many many decades ago, I can't recall any passenger trains in my 53 years on this planet although I can recall seeing old passenger cars in the Port Lincoln rail yards. There is nothing quite as sad as seeing once shiny rails turn rusty.
I see the same rusty rails in south east Queensland mate. The iconic line from Brisbane to Goondiwindi and through to Dirranbandi for
example. The line ends at Charleville on the Westlander route, then you have to take a bus to Quilpie. The line from Brisbane through the
Granite Belt to Wallangarra, on the NSW border is rusty too. Love trains and seeing rusty rails makes a grown man cry.
These tram videos always make me yearn to have our trams back here in Southampton; there used to be a rather extensive route covering from one end of the town to the other, before the main shopping way was pedestrianised, but there's still some rails hanging about, and I'm sure there'd be public interest if the roads were up to par.
I've never noticed tram lines in Soton - but it would be great to see some kind of light rail between Portsmouth and Southampton. Like you say, there are old lines, but also it should include the main population through the Soton suburbs to Fareham and Portsmouth along the A27.
I'm sure there have been extra costs for Croydon, as well as the other 90s trams like Manchester, Sheffield and Nottingham, but it seems Edinburgh was on a 'HS2' scale of cost inflation, albeit much smaller.
As a Croydon girl im always interested in Tales from the Trams. I wascfascinated by the possibility of Edinburgh trams running in Croydon.
Btw , I’d love a particular video about the history of Mitcham Junction .
I bet in hindsight Edinburugh were glad to have a lot of spare trams available. I mean - they are Urbos 3, and they have enough to run a service whilst the rest get rebuilt to remedy any cracks that would eventually appear - like the Urbos 3's in the West Midlands. At least they can be retrofitted with batteries for wireless running in super-conservation areas like around Birmingham Town Hall (yes - Birmingham has areas of historic significance too!)
The batteries are also useful for short extensions to the line, such as the spur down to Wolverhampton Rail Station. It's a fairly short extension, and not needing to put up wires keeps the costs down... in theory anyways, in practice, I'm sure it's gone way over budget.
@@DJenerate "not needing to put up wires keeps the costs down"
dem short term gainzzzzzzzz.
I was just in Edinburgh on Thursday and saw a lot of trams! Great video BTW, Jago!
The trams have always interested me, they’re such a unique piece of London transport that has surprisingly changed so little in the last 2 decades!
When they were first introduced they were only every 20 mins, now they are every 2 or 3 mins at peak time and are very well used. The tram uses a route previously used by an infrequent train, every 40 mins. At the time they were introduced I was commuting from Merton Park (near Wimbledon) to Croydon. Now I have retired so only use the service to got to Wimbledon, occasionally I go to Croydon and link with the Gatwick Airport service. My only criticism is that you can't take bikes on the trams even at quiet times.
It hasn't changed much because every single extension plan has been cancelled. The only change has been one extra stop which was only built because of a shopping complex who presumably contributed to the cost.
@@davidbull7210 From wiki: 'The tram stop was provided and paid for as part of the development of the shopping centre.'
I've read that there was always the idea to have a halt there once the derelict building became something, so the track had to run straight for the necessary distanct.
@@davidbull7210 at least here in Sutton there is another plan safeguarded by TFL, so when they get the money for it it's gonna happen
@@_CaptainCookie I'll believe it when I see it. Originally that was to start construction this year for a 2025 completion but now who knows?
Subtitles: twice as many drams as needed... Yup, sounds like many a new year to me.
I wonder how unavoidable it is to have a radically customised tram-type for each town? After all, the Crich tram museum has vehicles from all over, and they all seem to get on together OK. Come to that, buses, though differing in detail, are all pretty much alike (maybe apart from the number of doors) and the big companies shift them around from town to town, and there is a flourishing second-hand market. Was there any attempt in the era of building 'new tram systems' when the various parties had a go at specifying a 'standard' tram type - preferably one already widely used in mainland Europe? Or are we doomed always to spend more than we need on custom vehicles, which can't then be sold on to another town?
Really it shouldn’t be complicated with a clear set of regulations. If some cities were minded they could do a massive joint order if they got tram/tram-train systems (or stock renewals) going within a few years of each other. Happened in Germany a while ago, several regions got together, worked out a common standard, and placed a bulk order with Stadler (I think). Everybody was happy, Stadler got a fat order, several German cities got relatively cheap trams
@@jonathanbaker3307 That sounds eminently sensible - and quite believable in Germany. Can we do it in the UK - maybe - please ... ?
I mean, I generally agree with the idea. The problem is, just agreeing on a standard isn’t that realistic once a system is built. Changing your infrastructure is going to be much more expensive then paying a bit more for your vehicle orders. The project mentioned (called „Projekt VDV“, if somebody is interested) is quite cool though, especially since it wasn’t limited to Germany, but also involved Austria, so it was actually (somewhat) international. I think the better point to take away from this is: your system probably isn’t some unicorn, go look for cities who already have similar systems and work with them.
@@ricktownend9144 UK work together? We cant even decide if Brexit was a good idea, what type of brexit, and how to implement the deal we negotiated....
Add in Separatist issues (Scottish independence, CORNWALL devolution...) the closest thing we can all agree on in the UK is that we cant agree
Here in the US, the "PCC cars"* of the 1930s and '40s were kinda close to such a standard. They were used on a lot of streetcar (tram) systems all over the US and Canada. And after WW2, the design was licensed to manufacturers all over the world.
Though even with them, some customization happened. Twin City Lines (TCRT, Minneapolis/St Paul), for example, ordered them a bit wider than standard, to match the width of their old, in-house wooden streetcars** -- and presumably any infrastructure built to their loading gauge.
* Presidents' Conference Committee
** TCRT had been building their own wooden streetcars since 1898, after existing manufacturers' stock of the 1890s didn't perform well enough in Minnesota winters. TCRT also built them for several other cities' streetcar systems.
Thanks Jago, informative as ever. Here in Cambridge we desparately need an integrated tramway system. Instead in 2011 we got the 'Busway', effectively a roadway that is operated by specially adapted 'guided' buses. Whilst this system, deemed a 'White Elephant' by a Cambridge MP and opposed by many in the city, has been partially successful, it has failed since the guided roadway does not extend into the city, the buses having to join the normal roads, with all their familiar traffic problems. In effect the busway is a 'poorman's tramway' with all the disadvantages of conventional diesel buses (and potentially battery-powered vehicles) and few of the advantages of a tried-and tested, electricially powered tramway running on a separated trackway, as you show in your presentations and as operates in countless cities across the Continent.
The trams in Edinburgh and Croydon also have to mix in with ordinary traffic in some places. The alternative is an underground railway, and only London gets that sort of investment.
...and IIRC, most of the Cambridge busways run over the disused railway routes
@@whyyoulidl A lot of the Croydon tram routes are also former railways.
@@whyyoulidl I know, but only on the Huntingdon line. They pulled up the track to replace it with concrete track for the buses.
@@philipgibbard304 Thx, There's also the section of the old Varsity line from Trumpington, now guided busway
Variobahn is great! Greetings from Bergen. Come over and make a video. I will take you on a guided tour. I am responsible for the art project connected to the light rail here in Bergen. And a huge fan of your channel since I go to london and England very frequently! Cheers.
I've been wondering about the story on this for quite some time. Things did come to a head quite rapidly in the end before it was all sorted out. There were buffers being made at Haymarket to have that as the terminus while other parts towards York Place were still in progress. I remember large concrete blocks had suddenly appeared on my Saturday commute one morning. They lasted two weeks before they powers that be were finally told where to go and they disappeared.
I still think there could have been more useful routes in Edinburgh than massively increasing the street running down to Newhaven (and maybe Granton). There are many disused rail routes(not withstanding some of those have been turned into walkways/cycle routes) around the city which at least on the surface, seem like they could have been re-instated as tram routes. Maybe the plan is to make the hardest and most expensive route first.
I thought Edinburgh should have reinstated the Suburban network with a brand new underground section that went through the New and Old Towns. The Leith Walk part of the tram network is frankly a disaster and a failure of urban planning and design. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Suburban_and_Southside_Junction_Railway#/media/File:Suburbanrail.jpg
”Zing. Oh no he didn’t” totally deadpan. Peak RUclips
If Croydon had used the Edinburgh Trams they'd still be able to run when it's snowing.
If you feel like it, maybe you could do a video on historic parts of Croydon? I know it's been inhabited for a while (earliest mention is a Will in 962 CE), but I'm not sure what survives from when.
I did start scripting a video aaaages ago. Maybe I should actually finish it.
Yes! This one! I’ve been spending more time in Croydon lately (for work, not by choice..!) but have been really growing unintentionally quite attached to the area in spite of all the concrete. It’s definitely a… curious place.
I love the Variobahns because they have more solo seats than the other varieties, and you can get put right from the nose or tail of the tram, rather than the middle of each end
Loved it. Please do an historical about the old trams of central London.
Another tram video you could do is Dublin which is a mess since inception as they hadn’t two of the lines linked for years. Not British but eh it’s closer to Liverpool than to where I live. Also fun fact, many of the train / tram lines around Dublin used for commuter services once were to shuttle the rich British landlords in and out of the city as they lived in fashionable costal suburbs while the Irish were in squaller in the inner city. Not bitter, I promise…but it’s interesting how colonialism leaves a legacy in transport. There was a saying “all roads lead to Dublin” because that’s where British interests primarily were. Where I am from, the line was only built because Queen Victoria came on a long weekend once and caused a tourism boom. She was like the Kim K of her day
I can't quite imagine Queen Vic's naked arse crashing the Internet, but different times.
@@bingbong7316 historians shown her and Albert were pretty frisky so who knows
Much of the enthusiasm for HS2 is to enable politicians to do a quick in-and-out to their constituencies. It's like "we need their votes but how quick can I shake a hand, kiss a baby and be back at the Ivy for teatime? A hundred billion? Put me down for two."
Great video, when looking at 1:09 I wanted one of them messi burgers. dang.....
I wish more towns had trams, buses just get stuck in traffic jams or cars (ubers) blocking bus lanes, e-scotters and cyclists in my town have a blatant disregard to traffic lights, using pavements, cycling in the middle of a bus lane without lights and wearing headphones. (OK Climbing off soap box)
keep up the videos.
Another interesting video. Thanks
Ironically have just came back from Croydon town centre on the tram and then saw notification for this video.
Always enjoy your stuff.
Croydon is quite historic being the country pad of the Archbishops of Canterbury in Middle Ages.
Edinburgh should really build a second line.
Trams work a lot better when they are a network serving a larger area. Especially if they have a unified ticket system with other services like buses.
They have built a second line. It opens in March next year - not that you'd know it from the big oil shills on here.
An extra line is in the "being talked about" stage, running from the Royal Infirmary, Little France and the BioQuarter to Granton. The big question with this route is how you get it across the Water of Leith. The river itself is tiny, but it's in a deep gorge - the existing Dean Bridge, which isn't remotely built to have trams running across it, is 106 feet above the water.
@@cyberyoyo7674it’s not a second line. It’s completion of the original plan.
Yes, completion of the line is indeed not a second line. But an extension is always better than nothing.
Though nice to hear that a second line is at least being talked about.
I finally got to ride on the Croydon Tram a few weeks ago and tick that off of UK tram systems I’ve ridden on. Edinburgh I’ve done many times and I look forward to trying the extension when complete.
Sunday Midday treat from Jago Hazzard. North of the border meets south of the river !
As Croydon and much of South London that has it’s very own tram network. There were plans to build new tram lines in North London, West London and East London which I still think it should happen.
Plus Edinburgh Tram is to extend to Port of Leith and Lower Granton forming a loop for the Edinburgh Tram. And to extend west to North Newbridge and south to Musselburgh. And a new tram network to be built from Wimbledon or Colliers Wood to Sutton that could take over the Thameslink Sutton Loop line .
...and everyone lived happily ever after...
Well, until midnight when the trams turned back into pumpkins, and the planners turned back into mice and rats, the electricity got sold off to the highest bidder and Jago turned back into Harry Beck...
And then the Seven Sisters turned up...
Modern trams are more like light railway systems than the buses-on-rails of yore. Old footage shows tramcars clanging it out with cars, cyclists and pedestrians. Now it's more like the railway block signalling system.
Jago saying "zing etc." is an early Xmas present!
oh no he di-ent 😆😆😆
@@whyyoulidl No spoilers please!
Given how badly the finances have gone with Edinburgh trams, it comes as no surprise they couldn't do a deal with Croydon
Something that is never mentioned about the Croydon trams is their magnetic braking system.
They are powerful electro-magnets, normally carried about 25mm above the rail, onto which they drop when the driver makes an emergency brake application. Once energised, they exert a powerful magnetic grip on the steel rail, bringing the tram to a very sudden halt. They are provided because of the risk of pedestrians or vehicles obstructing a tram’s path.
If I'm not quite mistaken, Joseph-Armand Bombardier pronounced his name in there syllables. bom-bar-DYAY or something like it.
Fantastic video Jago! Sometimes I ride The KVB system in Köln,Germany. It goes partly underground and over the River Rhein. The Trams seem older than Croydon, but maybe an idea for you to make a film here in Germany on the many trams we have in operation.
The K4000 was developed for cologne I think (probably based on earlier designs though), and then the design was later changed a bit for the CR4000. So yeah the trams are older, but they will be replaced in the following years.
Also it's not a tram in cologne but a "Stadtbahn", or light rail.
Ref;To the standardized trams! The PCC'S were used in the US, had a set of parameters that made them semi- standard,as the lengths,and widths,and trucks[track Guage],were modified to suit the various properties! Otherwise,everything else was standardized!! Controls, seating,and basic elements of the cars,was available for usage on the systems! Both Boston,and Shaker Heights(Ohio-Cleveland suburb),had cars with left hand doors,for subway use,minor,built in modification! Anyway,hopefully you get the idea! By the way,PCC'S were more prevalent in Europe and Russia than in the United States! 10,000+,and many are still in operation! Thank you for the forum,Jago,and your sidebar excursions,are always interesting 👍 😉 😀 😊 🙏 🙂! Thank you 😇!
It's actually interesting that the Variobahn, though considered to be a typical tramcar (and many cities do use it as such), being low floor and such, is often used for LRT systems particularily those which are based of a proper railway when they aren't reusing old rails already like London.
Case in point: One of the oldest users of the Variobahn is the Rhine-Neckar metropolis (i.e. the cities Ludwigshafen, Mannheim, Heidelberg, Weinheim and the various towns there) whose trams are connected by some narrow gauge railway lines. As an aside, the rails are still legally classified as this and some tram stops contain the name "Bahnhof" which shows their railway origins.
Thanks for another interesting video Mr H
There were talks of extending the Network to Crystal Palace which would have been great but when Johnson and then Khan heard about it they both binned it. There's been talks about taking it Sutton but Khan binned it that too. All Khan is interested in is increasing the size of the ULEZ area.
Always a big fan of your tram videos, Jago! Especially as I see so many places I know very well in the footage 😅
The line about historic parts of Croydon definitely tickled me; they exist, honest! 😂
Wondering what's in the oven to surprise us this Friday Jago? My railway chef feeding my appetite for train stuff.
Trams are having something of a renaissance in Britain. You might like to visit the National Tramways Museum at Crich, and make another laconic video. There is a a TARDIS there, but I don't think it is in working order, so it is no use asking the Doctor for a lift! Thanks for uploading.
Does Croydon have one tram less than it should have? I’m guessing that the one involved in the Sandilands accident was scrapped but I haven’t heard of an extra new one being ordered to replace it.
Actually three teams short at the moment
As well as 2551 which was involved in the Sandilands accident, 2547 and 2561 are both out of service long term and not expected to return until sometime in 2023
Where do you keep a fleet of surplus trams? Will they be a barn find one day? What a discovery that will be.
Sorry to be pedantic but TCL wasn't the tram operator. It was the *infrastructure* concessionaire. It sub-contracted tram operations to Tram Operations Ltd - a subsidiary of First Group.
To clarify: TCL was bought out by TfL but they just managed the infrastructure. TOL (Trams Operations Limited, owned by First) is still in private hands and operates the trams under a concession to TfL.
Is it some kind of regulation that they all have to have names that condense to "T(some other letter)L"?
Kudos for zinging "...certain town planners." 🙏
How about a vlog about the Tyne & Wear Metro and why it took 30 years to get to Sunderland and why hasnt it been extended as planned way back in early 1990s?
This is all very interesting. These are the kinds of stories we need to hear about public transport infrastructure and assets. Members of my local council here in Folkestone have broached the subject of trams. Speaking for myself, it doesn't seem like a very good idea because the proposal I know of is simply a line that uses a defunct branch line down to the harbour (intended to connect a car park that doesn't yet exist to where all the touristy things happen). I think we'd need a wider community network to support this, not to mention that a tramline would maintain a neighbourhood divide already exists due to the preexisting rails that have been closed off since their disuse. These things really need more debate before the council starts paying for things.
Very interesting,, and to think going back 60 years most towns and cities in the UK had a tram network,, if only we could see the future,,
As well as lengthening many Croydon stops they also had to have a bit trimmed off the width with petrol disc cutters.
Still never been on a tram in the uk which is odd - great video!
Excellent work at 3.15 if capturing a Honda entering shot in Croydon Tram Green just as said Croydon Tram leaves shot.
At least not selling those trams means having spares and parts for many years, reducing costs over the long run, and as you mentioned they may end up needing them for regular use.
Surprised the Edinburgh trams weren't offered to the Midland Metro. Our system runs on CAF Urbos 3 and is being expanded, although maybe retrofitting the battery packs would have been too difficult.
Hope those Edinburgh trams don't have the same chassis cracking problem as ours and some of the Auzzie variants.
So Edinburgh use CAF Urbos 3s - just as well they've got some spares, given too many sharp corners and gradients will exceed the design specification of their bogie boxes, as the West Midlands Metro has discovered (another system that launched with ambitious plans, but has only one line - albeit extended three times, each taking several years to build, weaving through the city streets, for relatively short distances of a few hundred metres).
I understood the Variobahns were not as powerful as the 4000s and so were slower on the gradients. However the improved timetable thanks to the extra units was a godsend for those of us using the Wimbledon branch, as it meant the rush hour crushes (and they really were) became a little less sardine like. It's a shame the timetable has regressed to two every 15 mins on that branch now
Somewhere I have a photo of Edinburgh's Gogar Depot, full of shiny new trams, taken before the tramway opened. If I find it, I'll post it to your Facebook page.
The rest of the Edinburgh tram network is back in the news. They've started doing feasibility studies for the north and south lines. We're still in the early stages but we're starting the public conversation. Given how controversial the original line was, it must be a good sign that the Council even felt safe to commission the studies.
I was surprised that trams as variable or bespoke as this.
It's great to see it running.
Last time I was in Edinburgh the tracks were partially laid, with no sign of any construction or contractors. The rails just ended abruptly in the street with tarmac beyond them. Looked really odd.
As for cost and etc. Just like the debacle that was the construction of the parliament building in Holyrood. Lots of last minute changes and whimsical ideas. Politicians fail to understand the repercussions of changing a project, the knock on effect to items already ordered and being fabricated. The modifications to the project that may be required to carry the changes. The cost implications of redesigning, manufacturing of new parts or equipment and the disposal of stuff items that could have been been built long in advance. The lead times involved in manufacturing or supply of equipment. Politicians are clueless and cause setbacks and delays to projects that in most cases would have been much better if they hadn't stuck their noses in. Don't get me started on HS2 and all the flip flopping about. Must drive the project management, contractors and engineers potty.
Tramtrastic episode 👏👏👍😀
Croydon has "sensitive areas". Well I never Jago. I lived in Waddon for 4 years, regularly travelled on the Tramlink and hardly noticed the "sensitive areas". I must have blinked far too often cos I obviously missed it 🤣🤣
Hi Jago. I use the Croydon tram via Wimbledon if ever I need to get to Croydon. TFL did have some plans about an extension into Sutton and a route was accepted. Then Covid and it all went quiet over there as the saying goes. Do you have any update or news to share on this?
There have been a few might-have-been schemes with the trams. I’d like to look into them in future videos.
Another tale from the trams :)
There are some Mulhouse Trams rolling as the C2 series in Melbourne since 2008. Technical changes where minor…
Interestingly, the Musselburgh extension maybe back on the cards.
Can we have longer videos?
you can ,but the bits in the middle will have to be removed
Tramtrack makes me think of Hamtramck, Michigan…
Croydon has historically sensitive areas.... which may come as a surprise to... residents of croydon. ( that nice funeral directors near east croydon station has gone now, as has the in town mail sorting office that had a 60s charms, the asbestos filled allders store lies vacantly empty )
the south London Tramlink is great, would love it to extend up to Grove Park, the southeast of Lewisham is criminally underserved by public transport
so that means Edinburgh's excess trams have just been sitting in storage all these years ??
Have they, or do they just cycle through all of them, but with less heavy use each? 🤔
@@fetchstixRHD Yes this was the case
Croydon Tramlink could be useful if it ran every 12mins in the later evenings, a cold wait at Reeves Corner for tram home is no fun on a dark winter night
i don't even like the newer trams all that much (the earpiecing door closing tone is just 1 thing). but i did wonder where they came from. i thought they'd be replacing all the old ones but they never did. cool to know the backstory now
I’m wondering before TFL bought the rights to the Croydon trams, what colours were they originally besides red and white?
Cracking video sir!
So, did Edinburgh end up NOT selling their "extra" trams and instead keeping them?
I always get this odd feeling watching Jago's video. "Where is it all going?", I ask myself.
Croydon has "historically sensitive areas"?????
BTW, I love the tram to New Addington - it's like a roller coaster.
Great video.....
The Edinburgh trams should have just been given to Croydon. It would have been giving the trams from one branch of the British government to another branch on the British government. It just shows you how crazy and inefficient things are that one branch of British government already had extra trams but another branch decided to buy more from a different company.
Big up Wandle park
Worked on Tramlink as well...;-)
Is this where I get on to go to Apollo house to go visit Mark Corrigan and Jeremy Usbourne?
So you can peep on them?
Ose trams are massive. What happened to one car trams?
The planned Edinburgh tram network wasn't shortened because the budget was reduced. It was shortened because the project was mismanaged and over budget so the money ran out. The budget made available for Edinburgh trams, from the Scottish Government, was never intended to pay for the full network anyway but rather for the line to the airport and the circle line in the north of the city. In the event only a line from the airport to the city centre was built and opened in 2014. The extension to Newhaven (part of the original plan) has been funded separately and is due to open in Spring 2023. Edinburgh Council intends to add the line to the South East and from Haymarket to Granton; but additional funding will be required for these further extensions (as was always the case). This video, along with the previous one about Edinburgh trams, is interesting but inaccurate in parts.
The Croydon variobahn trams run more smoothly than the ones Helsinki had.
"...the following tram should be able to push it to the top" - * (asterisk) leads to small print stating that this depends on average weight of passengers and willingness for some of them to move to the other tram before pushing commences... 😬
Dear Jago, it is called simply Pesa, not P.E.S.A. Cheers!
Hi Jago. I know it's slightly off topic but were you aware of the 'minion' westbound at Dundonald Road tram stop? It's a sign (internally known as the minion) that tells the driver how many trams are occupying Wimbledon station. In theory the driver should wait at Dundonald Road whenever both 'eyes' are lit up
I was not, until now!
"Project Seagull"? At least they didn't call it "Project Albatross."