Final Fantasy XVI is an INSULT to RPG Fans, and I DIG IT!
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- Опубликовано: 25 июл 2024
- Final Fantasy XVI is an INSULT to RPG Fans, and I DIG IT! Hell has frozen over. Today I am talking about a Final Fantasy game on the channel, FF16, which has made a very interesting decision to swap out its usual semi-turn based party combat, into a single character real time Devil May Cry / Bayonetta style combat system. Naturally, being a big fan of character action games and discussing combat systems generally, I felt compelled to try this game and and share my thoughts on whether or not the combat system of the game is legit or not. Funny enough, as odd as this game may be seeing as how it is cutting against its original audience of RPG players, I actually found that a lot of what I have to say about this game ties very nicely into the themes I have been discussing on the channel as of late when it comes to precriptive combat, special move (summons) balance, the importance of pace, level design, enemy design, hitstun, super armor, and strong graphical presentation. One review that this game ties into heavily is my review of Bayonetta 3. In many ways, FF16 and Bayo 3 are sister games, both of them have essentially arrived at the same comprimise of blending real time action with RPG elements. Both games are trying to capture eachother's audiences. What makes FF16 more interesting to me personally, however, is that it is cutting against the usual trend of moving towards RPG design, by being an already established RPG that is moving towards character action design. So that even though a lot of the elements of this game are similiar to Bayo 3, the tone of this shift I find more interesting, as character action is a less marketable genre than RPG in terms of sales. Final Fantasy 15, for example, is sitting at a total of 10 million sales currently, while Bayo 3 is at a mere 1 million sales, and let's not forget that the original Bayo sold so poorly that Nintendo had to buy the IP to keep it going (which ended up hurting the franchise quality wise imo).
One other core question I bring up in this video is the question of what is the role of gameplay in RPG in the first place? What is proper RPG combat? Is it turn based? Does it matter? Does the gameplay of RPGs exist to support the story, or does the story exist to support the gameplay? This is a key discussion of design that I'd love to hear about the genre. Though I personally believe that all games, even RPG, are meant to be game design first story second, but of course I'm much more interested in game design than games as a story telling medium.
As of right now Final Fantasy XVI is a PS5 exclusive, but later on I understand it will be released on other consoles and PC. As for if I recommend the game or not, or if I think it's GAME OF THE YEAR as every game that releases is hailed, you'll have to tune in to find out ;-)
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00:00 All Games Genres Are Merging
05:40 Prescriptive Combat Design Vs Fundamental Combat Design
09:00 FF16 Has a Strong Foundation of Combat ... So Far So Good
17:00 Mechanics Are NOT ENOUGH, Action Games Need Strong Enemy and Level Design
19:00 Bayonetta 3 Vs Final Fantasy XVI
22:00 Is Gameplay or Story Top Priority in RPG?
25:00 FF16 Abandons Open World Design ... THANK YOU!
29:50 Enemy Design: Don't Make Sandbags
33:00 The Biggest Issue with FF16 Combat is Balance, NOT Depth
37:19 I APPRECIATE The CHAD Mature Presentation (No More Children Games Please)
39:00 The Arcade Mode is a good IDEA, But Design is Not Successful
42:25 Final Thoughts and Conclusion on FF16
#finalfantasy, #finalfantasy16, #finalfantasy7remake 
Игры
That whole beginning section, I knew games were implementing trendy mechanics that didn't belong to them and slowly move away from their identity, but damn I didn't notice it to THIS degree.
Games are truly just stealing from each other at this point.
yeah I think all mainstream games are looking at other franchises with eyes shining with envy and mouths watering. No doubt about it they are getting greedy and it's affecting their game design. FF16 is just a really amusing turn in this trend as it is a larger genre, RPG, trying to scoop up a rather small audience, character action games ha. I get the feeling that this will be a one off experiment though, as the cost of alienating too many rpg fans, though I find it interesting, will probably hurt the sales of the game ultimately.
Always has been tbh
@@neonjm8289 Blizzard was the king of taking 'inspiration' from other games and polishing the gameplay and quality for a more casual audience to make top tier games. All their biggest games are the result of seeing a developer make a game and thinking "We can do that too, in our own way" and thus we have the Warcraft, Diablo and StarCraft franchises come into existence.
24:42 This has been confirmed to be the case by the devs. FFIV's combat designer Hiroyuki Ito has openly stated that the ATB system was introduced to increase the excitement and intensity of battles. Moreover, he wasn't the game's original combat designer - that was Hiromichi Tanaka, who had worked on game design for the first three entries. He had likewise intended for the game to have more action-oriented combat than the previous games, although his proposals were deemed too radical a shift at the time, so he moved over to work on the Mana series instead to implement his ideas there.
Ito was a mentor for a lot of other influential people to work on the series, including Nomura, who had continued to apply his design philosophy. For FFX-2 Nomura and Kitase's team clearly felt confident enough to push the ATB system further and make it faster, which they then used as a base for the heavily modified version used in XIII and XIII-2 (my favourite iteration of ATB), while Ito had forked it in his own direction for FFXII, which retains slower than the XIII series but places greater emphasis on positioning.
What a fantastic and informative comment Duke!! Yes I love to read this sort of stuff because this tension in the series between action combat and turn based combat is so fascinating and usually FF fans tend to side with the turn based combat side of things, whereas i'm more partial the action combat ideas ha. At some point on the channel I'd love to have a larger discussion on the role of gameplay in rpg, because it still feels very up in the air.
@@TheElectricUndergroundIn regards to turn based FF fans, the cutoff point for the series is generally regarded as X-2. For some reason they consider the pure turn-based combat of the first three to be more or less interchangeable with the older ATB games, but the versions used from X-2 to XIII-2 make too many concessions to action games for their liking. Then of course you have the move away from ATB towards purer action game combat between Lightning Returns and XVI that is even worse in their eyes.
To be fair I can understand their frustration, since the series has gone 20 years now without making enough concessions to keep them happy, and to rub salt in the wound there are no satisfactory high-budget alternatives to turn to aside from Dragon Quest, which itself has threatened to go in a more action-oriented direction for DQXII. They've effectively gone two decades without _any_ major Japanese company - not limited to just Square Enix - giving them what they want.
Great contribution here Duke, please keep at it 🙏
But positioning doesn't matter in XII...
@@dukeofhmph6348Well there are the Atlus games and SMT, right?
I’m also sort of puzzled no one has mentioned VII Remake in the comments here, only because its combat seemed to garner pretty broad approval in general.
There have been so many RPGs that have interesting combat and bosses that sometimes gets lost on people from the perception that you play these games by grinding until your numbers are so high you can ignore all the mechanics. You'll even see it in old FAQs saying something along the lines of "be level 40 for this boss and you'll easily defeat it" when the battle was designed to be done at 20, utilizing interesting combinations of mechanics. Sure, sometimes I wanna relax by grinding in a game because I've already burnt my brain out trying to do something difficult in a game like beatmania, but there's a lot more interesting things going on in RPGs than some who've avoided the genre might realize.
Shin Megami Tensei changed my entire perception of RPGs, so did Tactics ogre. They can be absolutely fantastic.
@@voideyezz3234 I'm a huge SaGa fan which definitely shaped the way I view RPGs and how nail biting battles can be.
@@voideyezz3234 same,smt is all about tatical decisions and not grinding crap,i´m glad something like low level runs are very popular in the comunity,really highlights the versatility of such a deep combat system noctune and onwards have
@@Voxandra Not gonna lie. I honestly think the way Romancing SaGa handled non-linear exploration all the way back on the Super Famicom was far more interesting than most modern open-world games.
Healing magic on Scarmiglione in Final Fantasy IV comes to mind.
I love your takes on stuff. Now I’m just waiting for Dragon Quest XII to be a boomer shooter
Give it time crow, give it time XD One day all games shall be the same genre it seems
Apparently there is a KOF danmaku game, that’s almost as bizarre.
If it was a boomer shooter it might be good. A good boomer shooter slash survival horror is system shock. Give the remake a whirl. Oh make sure to print out a strat guide for it off of game faqs. Your going to need it.
LOL has there ever been a good Jap boomer shooter though? Even that Splat-Toon crap boring as hell & too basic to me. I thought Metroid Prime was the best Japanese FPS only to find out that it's made by the same Brits who did the N64 Turok games. Prime Space Pirates actually juke & flank you unlike every other Jap shooter. I don't count Vanquish, that's an action game with guns.
When you beat the game it remixes the enemies and ups difficulty with a "final fantasy" mode
Stranger of Paradise is the real action FF game
I believe it :-) team ninja baby. I m gonna try it soon, but still it being a spin off game is a bit less crazy, at least economically, than ff16 a mainline entry going so hard in the action direction
I found Stranger of Paradise to be a much better action RPG than XVI, especially since SoP doesn't waste your time with trivial stuff and isn't too cutscene heavy like XVI.
Bog says the same thing! He s convinced me to buy it so I ll give it a try soon :-) it s team ninja which are my fav devs ha so yeah they know how to make combat for sure. The key difference though, just for observation, is that stranger is a spin off game, and 16 is a mainline entry, so 16 is going to be a more widely played game I imagine
@@TheElectricUnderground If you're familiar with Nioh, SoP plays a lot like it but with FF elements.
Maybe XVI will be widely played, but I feel as though SoP is the one people are going to remember more, like it's gonna be a cult classic as some point in the future. XVI is more forgettable than XV to me, and that's saying something considering how that game was released.
SoP to me is the only good action-based FF game, at least the only one with actual good game design, none of the others did it for me.
To me SoP was sleeper game of the year. The first playthrough is kind of average, but once you progress to the second DLC it becomes one of the most fun action RPG games I have ever played.
@@TheElectricUnderground SoP is prequel to mainline FF 1, people keep calling it spin off but the existence of SoP is very importance to explain the mainline FF 1 universe
@@tonberrymasta people with no hands and creativity be like.
I played Elden Cringe and didn't find half the fun I had with SoP, I would have given the Goty to SoP before ER or GoWR is superior in enemy design, enemy performance, weapons, controls, characters, plot, story, mechanics, bosses, combat mechanics, music etc.
I love how you mention that all the genres are merging. However, I'm not sure you see the full scope of what that means. You mention RPG fans have been getting a lot of Ws recently because of RPG mechanics in other genres? That's actually quite wrong as there are hardly any proper turn-based RPGs left! Nearly all of them have been turned into Action RPGs and it's driving us nuts! Yakuza 7 is the only real W we got and gosh darnit that's sweet revenge after what SEGA has done to all their other RPG series...ESPECIALLY poor Sakura Wars. Oof. The thing is, RPG mechanics in other genres doesn't make them more paletable to RPG fans because RPG fans are fans of RPGs and that game still isn't an RPG. Genre is very important and seeing them all merge like this is frustrating because really, no one wins.
I'm reminded of what happened during the 7th generation when PC and Console games merged. PC Gamers complained because all their PC games were being "consolized", with less options, simplified gameplay, and controls designed for gamepads. However, console gamers weren't getting any proper console games, just consolized PC games. Everyone lost.
As such, where is the line drawn for RPG fans when it comes to how actiony a game can be before it is no longer an RPG? Depends on the genre. Turn-based RPGs and Action RPGs are entirely different things. I love both and can be in a mood for either, but the sheer lack of proper budgeted turn-based RPGs sucks and too many people think they're a relic of the past and see action combat as an "evolution" rather than "a complete genre change".
It's worth mentioning that SquareEnix have been insulting turn-based RPG fans for a while with their poor decisions. That crap "hold a button and win" combat of FF15? That was done because they literally didn't think RPG fans had the reaction times to play an action game. Then there's FF7 Remake which has a "classic" mode...except it doesn't make the game turn based, it makes the game play itself. Don't even get me started on convoluted disasters like Four Heroes of Light which is an insult to FF1 and inferior in every possible way.
That said, the one complaint you missed is the lack of party dynamics. Parties are important to JRPGs. Frequently I don't want to play as the "main" character, I wanna play as a side character and the ability to control multiple characters or switch between them lets me focus on the characters I like. FF16 doesn't let me do that. It's Clive or nothing, while many other action RPGs do let me switch characters.
That said I feel like we come from alternate dimensions. You mentioned liking the more mature presentation because you felt games were becoming more childish?! Cripes I wish. I'm sick of these sad dour games with brown and grey color pallets and a focus on "realism". I felt FF16's designs and world were painfully bland and too Western for my taste. Game looks like The Witcher but with pretty faces.
But getting back to the genre singularity, the other problem there is that, as you can see, it's also watering down character action games to make them more accessible to a wider audience. I'm still distraught by how Oneechanbara: Origins threw out all of the depth and moves of the older games to just become a garbage parry fest.
But at the same time I'm sadly seeing a lot of so-called "JRPG Fans" applauding the move to action combat...but at the same time detesting depth. Some of these people seriously seem like they just wanna walk down a straight line, mash the attack button, and watch cutscenes and it makes me sad.
I did appreciate the commentary on DMC1 though because I had a kind of similar thought. I enjoyed the combat but the stage design was terrible. There was no platforming, no fighting enemies in the stage, just a maze full of puzzles with the combat sectioned off to their own rooms. I honestly thought "Wait a second, Devil May Cry is just a bad action RPG! I'm going through a dungeon solving puzzles and going to separate combat screens but there's only one dungeon, only one character, and it's only single player! Tales of Eternia is like the same game but better!" which I know is a very weird thought. And actually that's what has me really frustrated as I love the Tales games but not only did all the good 2D ones not get a US release, but the last two entries in the series abandoned their distinctive side scrolling combat system for a generic dumbed down system very similar to FF16...and Star Ocean: The Divine Force...and Ys 8 & 9...and everything else.
That said, this video was interesting because I never knew that Character Action Game fans were suffering in a similar way JRPG fans are with their genre becoming increasingly niche and increasingly absorbed into the grey mush that is the genre singularity. Honestly? Outside of Xenoblade Chronicles 2 and maybe 3, most JRPGs released these days fall so short of the ones from the PS2 era and earlier. The whole genre is a mess right now. I could go on for days but my thoughts are too jumbled. Good work but MAN is it clear you don't understand RPG fans! XD (Also, ATB is a terrible idea and a huge mistake)
I’m actually super interested to hear what you mean by 4WOL being a convoluted insult to FF1. I am not particularly attached to either game, you just have a stance I have not seen before.
Yes jrpgs fans became what they hated its ironic at this point
The action rpg combat that these jrpg use now is just bad without depth or anything special thats why its an issue
As a fan of various RPG franchises with very different structures and gameplay mechanics, I can tell you that there is a serious divide within the community regarding Story V.S. Gameplay, and it stems from the fact that many franchises _actually do put gameplay over story._
Some examples that you might be interested in checking out could be:
• The Romancing SaGa / SaGa Frontier games.
• The Shin Megami Tensei games (not to be confused with the more popular subseries Persona; mainline SMT is far more gameplay focused).
• The Grandia games.
• Almost all Dungeon Crawlers (like Etrian Odyssey and Wizardry).
• Many western CRPGs (like Divinity Original Sin 2 and Pillars of Eternity).
• Many Strategy RPGs (like Fire Emblem 5 through 12 and, funnily enough, the two portable sequels to Final Fantasy Tactics).
• And I have the feeling that you might enjoy Final Fantasy 5 more than most entries in the series, since it's the biggest example of gameplay over story in the entire franchise. Lots of customization and a decent challenge.
You should check some of these suggestions. Maybe you could find something that mixes well with your game preferences, Mark. 😎👍
Oh for sure, one rpg series I enjoy (until Stupid 3 houses) is fire emblem because it s just get right into the tactical combat and it s not too stat heavy. My issue isn't so much turn based combat is combat that involves a lot of inventory and stat management and of course any fetch questing
I loved the hell out of smt apocalypse, but good lord those games command high prices.
so does etrian odyssey.
FF 16 didnt do that. There is no gameplay besides button mash combat. What else is there to do???
this is unironically the best review of a game i've ever seen. at least it was my favorite. I watched many reviews of FFXVI before this one, but only after watching this I finally feel like I understand what experience i would have, which should probably be the goal of all reviews.
I'm very happy to hear that lucy :-) Yes I do try my best to get to the heart of the game design and I'm glad my analysis was useful! I think a lot of reviewers are sort of caught up in the legacy of the series a bit to where it is harder to take the game's individually, which is what I try to do.
Great video, I watched during the premiere so I didn't watch the beginning parts (going through it now)
One thing that I think is worth noting just in case you didn't is that Yoshi P (the game's director) has been known to be an arcade fiend. He literally got Zangief nerfed in Street Fighter EX2 way back in the day by attending a loctest and crushing everyone. On top of that, he's the director of FFXIV MMO which has beat-em-up/shmup style linear dungeon design where you go trash mobs -> midboss -> trash mobs -> stage boss, and the Limit Break in XIV is functionally the same thing as the Dodonpachi hyper meter
no..he bodied everyone in sfex1...around the time of sfex2 he got to meet with arika and got a confirmation that he was the reason behind the huge zangief nerf in that series eheh
That is really awesome ha. Yeah as weird as it is I have a bit of a soft spot for the FF series just because you can tell it still retains a lot of Japanese style game design, which overlaps with arcade game design. Most rpg series I have absolutely no interest in playing or trying out in the slightest, except for FF (maybe because of it's awesome graphics and character designs?). So I'd love to play the series more and explore it more, but man battling my way through rpg game design is so hard due to my general impatience when it comes to wanting gameplay right away and general disinterest in video game stories.
A good RPG is a slot machine that you can change the odds of. You leverage stats, synergize abilities,and optimize actions all to stack that slot machine so far in your favor. In the same way you would study a superplay or use savestates to increase the chances that your muscle memory will execute a good run, an RPG player gathers info from towns and executes actions in battle optimally to slow the use of resources over time in order to clear a level. The payout of the slot machine varies from game to game; some give out chunks of story while others give you more gameplay complexity and more types of slot machines. At it's worst it's just "number go big" which is what gets tacked on to most non-RPG and unfortunately to FF16. Numbers going up in a linear path is not gameplay. Manipulating and exploiting variables is.
The most "pure" gameplay for an RPG would be dungeon crawlers/blobbers like Wizardry, Might and Magic, Etrian Odyssey etc where the story is in the manual and the game is constant combat and dungeon exploration. Classic JRPGs like early Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, and Shin Megami Tensei have the best balance of light story/strong theming with large variations in party building.
Yes I get the feeling what you describe is what might be considered core rpg gameplay. Because I have a friend whose really into rpg and he ll destroy them all at high difficulty and will then tell me how he did it and recite massive stat trees and stuff ha. Basically the gameplay is about manipulation of stat variables and how they interact with each other, is what it sounds like
Sounds like Mario Party to me. Funny I found most of the guys worked on RPG’s before they worked on Mario Party.
@@TheElectricUnderground Basically that. Final Fantasy is sort of the Ikaruga of RPGs in that it's became the face of the genre despite not 100% following the essence of it. It's a very competent series (or was) but in the PS1 era started leading more towards story game due to being at the forefront of CGI across any medium, not just video games. 16 was created by MMO developers, but the combat was by the DMC designer hot off of DMC5. They don't mesh perfectly and the RPG mechanics (which are thin and very MMOish) shackle the combat to cooldowns and not being able to juggle 75% of the enemies in the game.
broken gameplay if you learn the mechanics? like how insane ff8 can get once you really learn it. linear progression drives me insane. the enemies scaling with me no matter what I do is an instant no.
@asmith1854 Final Fantasy also convinced most western gamers that buffs, debuffs and status effects don't matter, something Dragon Quest had figured out was wrong since III.
Prescriptive combat design is a good term. What comes to mind is how Doom Eternal pivoted to it away from the fundamental combat design of Doom 2. In Doom you run your route through a level based on what the basic geometry of the level is, what and where the weapons and ammo are, what the enemy composition and placement is. The way you play it depends your fundamental shooting and movement skill. Doom eternal gets rid of all that most fighting is just being locked into arenas, your ammo pool is pitifully low so you have to engage with the weapon progression rpg mechanics and cool down abilities, and with enemies a tutorial pop up will tell you the proscribed strategy for dealing with them the first time you see them. There are also a lot less enemies in general and are damage sponges unless following a proscribed strategy. Critics lauded it as an improvement and evolution over the old Doom
I don't agree with your take at all and find it wildly misguided. For comparison, it annoys me that I don't get tightly designed action-platformers much anymore because 90% of games in the platforming genre are metroidvanias. But I don't wish that metroidvania fans share my misery by not getting their games either. That is essentially your attitude here, but it misinterprets the situation as if fans of in-depth turn based RPGs are actually getting what they want, which is incredibly far from the case. Nearly every "RPG" has just been a shallow action game with RPG elements for a decade and a half now.
I hope you can detect I am being tongue and cheek with my presentation of my vid ha. I don't actually want rpg players to be frustrated, but it is funny to see the shoe on the other foot for once. Also someone should make a video about the over swarm of metroidvania in platformers these days, because it is getting out of hand. I dislike that trend perhaps more than the rpg trend, it's a close toss up. But in terms of RPG fans being hurt for games, I think that's swimming in the ocean and complaining about not having enough water. The gaming sphere is dominated by RPGs, and not just in terms of releases, but most game discussion revolves around RPGs and their style of design. I hear over and over that the art of games is that they are an "interactive" story telling medium ... which is an RPG concept. I don't view games or design from this angle at all. Is Tetris any less of a game, artistically, than FF6, because it doesn't tell a story? RPGs are so baked into gaming culture that I think fans forget just how common and prevalent they are.
@@TheElectricUnderground That is fair, and I overreacted. I just don't think it is the fault of the core RPG genre; I think it would have happened anyway if RPGs hadn't been the catalyst. Think back to FMV games and further back even. In which game is the story presented in a more cinematic and important manner, Ninja Gaiden or Final Fantasy (1)? Arguably the former. Not that this is a knock against it, Ninja Gaiden is a better game AND has a better story. I may have a niche view of things, but the core of the RPG genre is a resource management/puzzle game, not an interactive movie. And the niche appeal of that is extremely limited, hence why RPGs adopted the interactive movie angle before other genres. That is where I agree with you, the appeal to the mass market means a dilution of the genre. I just disagree that the RPG is inherently at fault here, it is just as much the victim. Anyway, love your videos even if I disagree some times.
I always love seeing you branch outside of shmups and bringing that "game mechanics brain" to other genres. I'd love to see a video on the Vampire Survivors craze that's going around, given how many comments I've seen from casual non-shmups players about how they're similar to bullet hells. Would be cool to have a real shmups expert weigh in, haha
As more towards a RPG player, I appreciate the "pointing where you should go next" feature. So that I could avoid that direction and explore other nook and crannies without accidentally triggering the next phase sequence.
lol truuue
The story is great. I hate action games but i love final fantasy so I watched someone play it from start to finish. Isn't it amazing how you can just watch a game for free now? If this came out in early 2000's i would have wasted money
Ha that is really funny because that s my relationship with all the other final fantasy games. Like with 7 remake, I just watched cutscenes compilations :-D
@@TheElectricUndergroundYeah, and now that Nomura si going to turn Final Fantasy 7 in another Kingdom Hearts, i'm going to stick with the original
very interesting to see the perspective of someone knee-deep into a genre and compare it to the design philosophy of "mainstream Western designers". From all the game design videos/forums/discussions I have seen, a mechanic not directly being engaged with by a significant amount of players is automatically perceived as bad. And as you said, the solution proposed frequently involves making the design more restrictive and forcing the players to use said mechanic (this mass appeal progress at all cost mentality). I personally don't mind some games having restrictive designs but that philosophy can very often devolve gameplay into a glorified game of Simon Says and make mechanic utilization/progress much more inorganic when overused.
Again another awesome video and I look forward to the next one.
What a great comment duel! Yes I think there can be some smart uses of prescribed design, especially if you are trying to teach a player about how a mechanic should be used and in what context, but when you make it a permanent part of the design it gets extremely simplistic and uniform.
"Franchise known for being RPGs shits on RPGs and here's why that is a good thing"
indeed! What's funny is that clearly FF is looking for a crossover audience of action game players, I am in that crossover audience, so I thought it would be interesting to view the game from the criteria, especially since RPG oriented critics tend to dominate the review space to begin with. So I think the idea of making a crossover FF game is cool, it's just a question of if they pull it off or not ha.
I personally am a Souls gamer, and I want games to have that same simplicity and dodge canceling, difficult, I-framing goodness, but I don't want every genre to become Souls, I want turn based, action, adventure, puzzle, platforming etc. Genre games to exist, because they each have their own character and niche. I'm not interested in FFXVI because it seems not to have made a specific choice with what it wanted to be, character-action? Or story based RPG? If it had made a stronger choice, I'd be more willing to try it.
oh this is a great point charles. I agree that what I like about the souls games is their emphasis on fundamentals of combat, frames and hitboxes. However, like you say, I think devs are being way too derivative and literally just copying souls as a formula. Whereas what they should be doing is analyzing why souls works (the fundamental combat) and then incorporating that design concept into their games. Devs used to do this once upon a time ha.
Did Lies of P do that?
Is an RPG becoming much more like a Character Action game a good thing if it results in a game that doesn't do either genre that great? (Or in this case, a game that is barely an RPG, yet still want to be one so badly that it holds back the "action")
That is truly the question david. Just like the reverse of Bayo 3, where a character action is becoming more like an RPG. It's a double edged sword and I don't think it can actually be easily answered, like in a game design sort of way. As a critic though, I am geared towards favoring character action style design over RPG design, especially since RPG design is much more prevalent and popular. So in my book yes I would like to see more RPG series shift towards character action and I absolutely would love to see FF go all the way with the idea, rather than have this sort of awkward middle area ha. Intellectually, it sounds nice for me to say that FF should stay pure to rpg because that's its legacy, but as a player I cannot deny that I am enjoying FF16 more than I did FF15 (the little I played of it) because of it's real time combat elements ha. So really it kind of comes down to a battle of design elements and which side you'd personally like to see prevail. There is no easy right or wrong I don't think. That being said FF16 could certainly just improve it's combat system by making it more balanced in terms of special attacks, I think that's a glaring issue.
@@TheElectricUnderground
Although... id say Bayo 3 made an inch towards RPG while FF took miles towards a character action game 😂
I'd like the Final Fantasy identity crisis to be over with though, so if they want to be more like an action game, id perfer if they commit to it rather than completely change the game again and probably put out another sucky one. They need to start iterating on a certain style if they want to make a game as good as FF6 or 7. Plus like you said, theres not enough action games out there lol
As for RPGs becoming more like character action. I think there is alot RPGs (and modern games in general) can learn from Character action, and arcade game design. But i would only like to see them make larger jumps in ways that make sense.
Ys and Kingdom Hearts are two IPs that I wouldn't be opposed to being more like (or outright) a character action game. I know Ys in particular is one where some people would like them get rid of party members and return to solely controlling Adol.
I don't think adding a global cooldown is a good idea, that would make comboing using special moves bad. They should do the opposite, lower damage specials with way lower cooldowns to encourage combos and using the moves at specific times. Global cooldowns wouldn't fix a current issue where you open every fight with a screen clear move and then the fight's over, by the next fight that screen clear is back.
With elites at half stagger they could've allowed juggling with a super moves. It would encourage using supers that do more than just damage and make fights more dynamic. Maybe juggling like that builds bonus stagger on a downed enemy who's stagger meter has come back, that way there's an aspect of risk and reward.
Those are the two biggest issues for me, overpowered supers and unreactive elites.
You could absolutely be right here Jim. I admit I didn't explore the special move meta as much as I could have because them being OP annoyed me so much that my first thought was, get rid of these suckers ha. But you are probably right that since the combat system is so heavily designed around them, maybe making them less special and more just moves in general would be a reasonable solution.
@@TheElectricUnderground understandable
26:06 it’s so nice to find a reviewer with the same priorities as me. This has been a great review
Spot on.
I'm one of those salty RPG fans. 🤝
Edit: I dont know how to answer your story vs gameplay question, but I will put forth Final Fantasy X and Dragon Quest XI(s) as the gold standard tier of turn-based RPGs. They have deep stories but also have compelling strategic battles, particularly in their optional content. This content brings an additional challenge for the combat-leaning fans, but leaves a mainline story completion within reach for more casual players. Not sure if this answers the question but it's all i can say!
no irony, salty rpg fans might be my fav type of fans of all time. Because you guys are suffering, but from your suffering you have gained rationality. Vs Nintendo or Bayo fans where they are just conditioned for unconditional praise of their games at all times.
I'm not primarily an RPG-player either, but I play some from time to time and I think dismissing non-action RPGs as relaxing entertainment with low gameplay density in general is just wrong. You should try Shin Megami Tensei IV or V. Those games will show you how turn based J-RPGs can prioritize gameplay mechanics over story and have a very tight gameplay-density. There are also a lot of western cRPGs like for example the Wizadry series or Darkest Dungeon with very dense and challenging gameplay.
ahem Etrian Oddysey ahem ahem
Grand theft auto 6 will have dark souls melee combat, a first person mode for ranger combat and a skill tree with level ups
LOL that starts as a joke, but I honestly would not be remotely surprised.
I’m a Final Fantasy fan since VII and went back and played them all, minus Lightning Returns. This game feels so far away from FF that I’m quite torn on how I feel about it. I love my RPGs, especially turn-based. Persona and Dragon Quest are some of my faves. I actually am wondering, what are your fave action games? Heard you say Nioh and Ninja Gaiden, but what is your take on Astral Chain? One of my all time faves, God Hand.
Oh easily my favorite action game is Ninja Gaiden 2, I think it is ahead of the genre still in a lot of ways, despite some issues like not locking areas to force combat and the damn UT spamming (which I just pretend doesn't exist ha). Following up NG2 though, I do think God Hand is fantastic (though I still need to get better at it) and specifically DMC3. I've been working on a big DMC3 video for the past year, but I think 3 is much better than DMC4 and 5 and I'm gonna have a whole vid on that ha. As an FF fan, I can only imagine how far away 16 is from the rest of the series ... I mean the game is showing up on my channel, and I don't play rpgs normally ha.
@@TheElectricUnderground oh my god. Love your channel and I’m so there with you. I still have yet to beat DMCV because it just didn’t click for me. DMC3 is one of my faves and Ninja Gaiden Black and 2 are high up there. Awesome. Can’t wait to see your vid on DMC3!
@@TheElectricUnderground "I think 3 is much better than DMC4 and 5." Finally, a fellow style switch hater. Ironically style switching actually limits the game design.
Thank you for the term perscriptive design! That's exactly what I've experienced in numerous modern action RPGs. Particularly where they have mechanics that would be engaging, except they also lower the execution barrier for strings and combos to the point where they essentially have to brute force enemy design to prevent them from becoming endless punching bags.
Hey mark, really interesting video as always. Would like to know your view on Stranger of Paradise, considering your thoughts on XVI.
So boghog loves that game and convinced me to buy it, but I haven't played it yet ha. But I absolutely will in the near future
@@TheElectricUndergroundcan't wait to see your reaction / review of it!
Nice review, as a long time oldschool Final Fantasy fan who didn't even bother anymore with most new entries, this one catched my interest and I got it right away. Have not started it yet apart from the demo a few weeks before.
I feel like I'm a bit in a strange place since I do enjoy both hardcore RPGs with lots of management and slow pace (like not even only console stuff like SMT or similiar, but even extremely deep text-heavy tactical CRPGs such as Divinity or Baldurs Gate) but also can put a lot of time in Arcade stuff from fighting to shooting to rhythm.
I do get though where you're coming from. And basically, I think it comes down to "does this game respects the players time". I like fast action, but also slow paced story moments. I mean even after years of playing them, I still sometimes enjoy watching character intros and story stuff in old SNK fighting games because they are so lovingly created and enjoyable. But those things need to be entertaining or/and well done or/and optional. There's game design which gives you lots of interesting little things to interact with and then there's needless grindy filler or making the player waste time. Like badly written sidequest dialogues which I guess many a JRPG can be accused of ..
Anyway, looking forward to start FF16 up soon!
Fantastic comment!! Absolutely the golden rule is respecting the players time, I think if devs use that across the board genre wise that is a great starting point ha
When I saw the trailer for this I thought it looked pretty good. Haven't checked it out yet but might do! Do feel a bit more convinced after this video aha. I always wonder whether cancels are intentional or forgot to be patched out. I remember playing a game on the PSP back in the old days which was live action think it was called crisis core.
Although I'm not that big of a fan of being able to just follow rotation in a game and just use that same rotation over and over.
yeah it is funny when you have to try to figure out if the combat system is intended to have cancels, or if they are looked over lol. Typically there are signs though, like in ff16 the fact that the string continues is a good sign that they are intentional.
i love that you hold the mic. dunno why. maybe because you look like a dynamic reporter on the scene. lmao. it's great. iconic
ha thanks my dude! Yeah i have been looking at things to be more visually distinct from the standard youtuber game reviewer and I think holding the mic gives the on camera element of the show more energy. I got the idea from watching live singers performing and always feeling like the mic give the singer a weapon visually ha.
Would like to see your take on the Zeno Clash games, especially the newest one, Clash: Artifacts of Chaos.
the game looks interesting, I really like the over the shoulder Godhand style camera though! I wish more games used this camera perspective.
I'm a fan of both character action(spectacle fighters) & Final Fantasy, but Chocobo May Kweh(Final Fantasy XVI) while being a great game... the combat is just wrong for Final Fantasy in the form they chose. I was up for the DMC combat, but was hoping for more strategy than just waiting on cooldowns. I was on autopilot playing the game due to 20 years of DMC & wasn't challenged & barely was touched.
The combat needed more Final Fantasy elements in elemental weaknesses, buffs & debuffs along with a proper magic system. Having the DMC 5 combat director, while a good idea, they ignored stuff that could have made the game more challenging.
As a JRPG fan, we come into the genre for the story & world. Combat is there as a mental challenge in turn based & in action RPGs it's survival as an adventurer & both are there for a sense of growth in the characters, like going to the gym to get stronger. With western RPGs (which I am not that big a fan of) people go to them for the sense of freedom & inserting themselves into the world... & these ones are where character action combat would fit perfectly since WRPGs are about personalisation.
The biggest issue with modern games is that they aren't making games for older fans of franchises in their late 30's & older, but younger audiences who want time burners content over smaller & tighter experiences.
Oh yeah the difficulty is really an issue for this game, even on default. Because difficulty creates strategy in action combat by forcing players to respect frame data. But if you don't have enemies challenging you and making you consider each strike, it does end up feeling mindless. I wonder how likely it might be that square put in a mode with much more aggressive ai (way more than Ng+)
I’m definitely in team story first in rpgs, that’s why I play them. But I’m primarily an arcade gamer, fighters, character action and shmup player so I don’t want to combine all these genres, I usually like to get what I expect at the core of each experience. That being said I really enjoyed your review and I might actually pull the trigger on a ps5 to get this game! I didn’t like the final fantasy’s with programmed moves as you say that essentially plays themselves
Dear Mark,
Thanks to your appearance on the GAMERZONE podcast, I was made more aware of your presence in the online space. In the past two weeks, I have come to really enjoy your charming personality and insightful and critical view on the market and medium of video games. It is really refreshing and reassuring that there are other "gameplay radicals" out here making their voices heard against all the complacency in the world of video games.
In your video, you asked us- the audience- what is an RPG supposed to be? I think that no matter how much of a cop-out answer it seems, most people will have differing personal opinions about the subject. It is in the name, "role playing" and most people will want to play different roles in different circumstances. This is also where the big distinction between western and eastern RPGs lies as well. In western ones it is usually about the player telling their own story in the framework of the game, while in most eastern ones it is the opposite.
If you ask me what an RPG is supposed to me personally, then even I could not give you a straight answer, because of much this genere intertvines with other ones. I still think that the most pure RPG video games are the Dungeon and Dragons styled pen and paper simulations. Where you create and customize your own character down to their basic stats. From this singularity point mutates the genre in all kinds of directions. Tactical, turn based, action, strategy. Nowadays, everything is an RPG for the general video game enjoyer, if it has stat values in it. It is a far bigger topic of discussion, than this small comment allows it to be.
But as always, I really enjoyed your video about this topic and I hope you can keep up the good work!
Oh i love the letter style comment, it's so refreshing and respectful :-) I'm really glad you enjoyed my crossover ep with BGE on his channel, I had so much fun. So what's interesting is that reading through all the comments from RPG fans, I did find that the general trend is that most RPG fans do consider stat based strategy as the core gameplay of the genre. And that the story telling aspect of stuff like FF should be secondary. But like you say, the two elements both seem really important to fans so maybe gameplay edges out the story telling by just a tad ha. For me this is a really interesting area to explore because I personally don't get invested in video game stories very much, so i would be interesting I think to explore the series strictly from a gameplay perspective and see how that stacks up next to the general view of the FF games. I suspect that I will end up favoring the later games much more than the earlier games, which is probably going to be counter to the general FF fanbase, but that's just a suspicion.
I hate stat leveling and unlocking moves in action games. Honestly drags the game down and honestly comes off a lazy way to balance the game so you’re not overpowered at the start.
damn right magic, agreed 100% dmc and bayo are hella guilty of this. NG2 is somewhat guilty of this as well, but less so as you do have access to your core moveset via the sword. Still, all character action games should begin with a NG+ file hot and ready by default. Then unlocking moves mode should be optional.
NG2 does the upgrade part the best. You upgrade your weapon one level and you get a crap ton of moves. Can you believe Gamingbrit wanted you to only unlock single moves? 😂😂😂😂
Based video as always
I wish FF16 was a full blow character action game but it's really not the case unfortunately, the depth really isn't there, no JRPG depth and no action game depth either.
But I like the idea.
Yes that's a great analysis. Except I don't think the issue with the combat system isn't necessarily depth, as it does have plenty you can do fundamentally (not as much as DMC or Bayo, but I think there's still room for a more limited moveset action game). But the massive issue comes with balance where the special attacks or summons, completely overtake and wipe out the fundimental gameplay leaving only a really shallow game of special move spamming. However, if the special moves were nerfed and rebalanced, then it think the game could start to have a much stronger feel in terms of combat. This is just a tricky conversation, especially for RPG players, because the issue isn't, oh there are not enough moves, the issue is, hey the moves are useless in the face of such OP summons. I guess it's a bit like the psychic pokemon of pokemon red, where they just were way too OP and could blast through all the other pokemon types without much issue.
The way you talk just makes me laugh so hard, you're so genuine with your criticisms it's refreshing.
have you tried finalfantasy "kill chaos"?
Honestly FF was a series hard carried by its presentation with very little to offer in terms of gameplay, FF became much less impressive and relevant during the 360/PS3 era as other console devs started catching up and budgets shot through the roof in general. I could never sit through more than a few hours of the mainline games but really enjoyed spinoffs like Tactics and Stranger of Paradise because the devs actually focused on making the basic gameplay loop engaging. So the somewhat poor reception of XVI among the hardcore fans only makes it look better to me.
The gameplay of FF SERIES was good it wasnt the best part but it was not bad for sure
I used your guide on Ninja Gaiden 2 (not the remaster) and have not looked back. Thanks man.
Oh fantastic!!! Yes OG NG2 is incredible, my fav action game ever
I played FF7 through twice 25 years ago.. this new one looks pretty good, but unskippable cut scenes is such a pompous move by the developers. I'd rather play something else
We need more people like you sir 🙏
very underrated channel, the algorithm does not like bucking the trend
@TheElectricUnderground I am curious about your opinion on Final Fantasy Stranger of Paradise. It’s basically Nioh with a FF skin and FF job system. It might be a nice video idea imo.
I was worried watching gameplay that this would be filled with animation locks with the finishers. Watching gameplay online from numerous sources it all appeared to be the case but I am glad to hear there are cancels in the game.
yeah the fundamentals are there! The issue though is that as the game progresses the summons become very overpowering and so by the end it does end up being a spammy, I really hope square rebalances them.
Tales of Series, especially the most recent Tales of Game probably has some of the best action combat. Ignoring the older games of course, combat is fluid and allows for long and complex combinations.
a very interesting take as usual..i m liking ffxvi even if gfx are a mixed bag and the difficulty level is too low for my taste....
yeah exactly I feel the same way! I feel like the game has a pretty solid foundation in terms of the system they put together, but it needs a lot more balancing before it can really hit the mark in terms of pure character action combat. Square do support their games for really long periods of time though, so who knows maybe they'll add in some kind of true hardcore nerfed summons mode or something ha. I don't think that's likely, but a fun thought.
26:56 do you hate resource management in shmups
They actually got help from Platinum with the combat system. I'll probably get FF16 when it gets a sale, but i enjoyed the demo. I did pick-up Wanted: Dead dirt cheap a few weeks ago. So much better than the reviews made it out to be. Thanks for the recommendation.
absolutely my friend, I love wanted dead so much. Funny enough, no joke, I have been playing the game all weekend because I am SO CLOSE to the no death japanese hard mode clear, I will get it very very soon, hopefully by the end of today actually ha.
Jacky Bryant's Theme in Virtua Fighter (eSports) Ultimate Showdown OST just slaps! Glad you checked XVI out.
which macross is that on your wall?
I believe it's from the original series? Good Macross art is surprisingly a bit hard to find ha, but i love the og series. My fav anime.
@@TheElectricUnderground oh.i thought it was art from an arcade macross shmup i didnt know about. there s like only 4-5 to my knowledge
Damn a good review for a final fantasy game round these parts, just a shame that I don't own a PS5. Congrats on the review though great stuff.
Thank you very much Riff! I heard it's coming to PC and stuff later on though, so no hurry ha. Maybe by that time some of the combat balance will be patched up too.
I am a big fan of JRPGs, and also Ninja Gaiden and other games covered in this channel, so I would like to share my view as an RPG fan. The biggest reason I play RPGs is the gameplay, without a doubt. If the game is not fun to play I won't grind throught hours of gameplay just to see some pieces of plot as a reward.
On the other hand the primary reason why I'm interested in JRPGs is also the more compeling story that these games tend to offer, and to be honest I would prefer a less RPGish game if the plot is weak. If the plot is weak I won't care about the world and characters, and because of that, cutscenes, exploration, and leveling progression will be a waste of my time, it will be in general a worse experience than alternatives without RPG elements.
But if I play RPGs for gameplay what do I want from them as a game? Well, I like the strategy side of gameplay in RPGs, I like to make smart decisions that gives me advantage in the limited control that the game systems offer, and being able of blast throught everything with sheer mechanical skills in combat is actually a bad thing for these games because on the tactical side it gets boring.
A great example of good design in my opinion is the SMT series. It is a series that consistently gives really good strategic combat, and has good enough writing to keep me invested. In SMT games you need to create a good party, and also you need to make smart decisions every turn in battle to mantain advantage and avoid death. That is when most RPGs shine in my opinion, the non actiony ones.
Now, about action RPGs, I think they shine when they are good action games, and nothing more. Yes, I think that they should be more compared to Ninja Gaiden and the like, even if they have RPGs elements. The simple reason is that action RPGs give you direct control of your character, and now your mechanical skill as a player WILL impact the gameplay and is important for progression. I do know that RPG mechanics can break action games, but this is the fight that action RPGs are buying so.... good luck I guess, or maybe try to make a pure action game.
The biggest example for action RPGs is Dark Souls, but I prefer Nioh so I will use that instead. Nioh is basically an action game with a lot of RPG elements, and even if you have level and equipments, with crafting and upgrades for good measure, you can still treat it as an action game. The reason is that, because you will usually play missions of about your level, most of your leveling in stats will be cancelled by your enemies levels. In such way, you can treat leveling systems as just an difficulty scaler, where the lower your level the harder the difficulty, but with good skills you can cut away grinding levels from the game.
That is my reason to give action RPGs an action game treatment, if the leveling can act as just an difficulty slider, the quality of the gameplay will mostly be decided by how fun is the action. Yes, in RPGs it is expected to have more customization, maybe party management and so on, but at the end of the day it still needs to be a good as an action game in my opinion, after all, you won't be able to cram into the high speed gameplay all of that strategic complexity of a turn/strategy RPG, so all you can lean on in this case is good action.
What am awesome and well written comment! By the sound of it, and based on other comments I read too, it seems like rpg players tend to view turn based combat, at least in some form, more natural because it makes it easier to blend together story elements and strategy elements, whereas with real time story doesn't matter since you still will need to swing your sword within the combat system, that makes sense. It would be super interesting if an rpg used something like fighting styles (like VF) as part of the strategy but that would be so complex to do on a fundamental level (so you d have to learn massive amounts of frame data), that no way could most players figure it out or be motivated to do so. Stats are easier to scale and program
26:57 "I manage sh*t in my real job, i don't wanna manage sh*t in a videogame...i just want to play for the love of god" 🤣🤣
EXACTLY!
I was a sucker for rpg/jrpg when i was younger and had more free time. now as an adult, i can't tolerate them anymore because they don't respect your time.
Nowadays, i only play compact action games that scratch the itch.
DMC for example... i had more fun playing bloody palace for 1 hour, instead of playing an rpg where the fun is scattered throughout the entirety of the game, that could take 100 hours to complete.
I always like your takes, thank you for sharing your insights. its always a pleasure watching your videos.
when it comes to story vs gameplay in RPGs i also wanna add that i feel like open world games and story games and rpg games are separate. (although most of the time mixed for them sweet review scores and hype) i think a good example of an open world game has to be morrowind since it is essentially just a 3d wikipedia with hyperlinked dialogue system, where the player is some anonymous non-entity that transparently explores a fictional 3d world, where the story only exists to compound on the lore (while in most other media lore is a justification for the story), similarly combat system only exists to compound on the lore: its very clear in the lore that magic is OP and so in morrowind you eventually either have to use enchanted weapons or learn magic.
Rpg elements could really be implemented into pure action combat mechanics if the rpg elements like equipments, skills and alike were more about optimizing playstyle for different kind of approaches of the situations. The requirement for grind would be optional but exploration could reward player by offering some new playstyles or making more niche strategies more viable. As much tired as it is to refer to soulsbornes those games did have the idea that action-play is the biggest asset for victory but leveling up is there to ease up stuff for those looking for it. To be honest I think the RPG element for players mostly means possibility of approaching problem from different angles and the goal of reaching that desired way is its own type of challenge.
Hear me out Mark, Switch game where you manage the shop from Trouble Witches Neo, like the witches come in and you sell and buy items, and you like craft new items by combining items. Also there will be Cotton DLC
Shin Megami Tensei has the right amount of gameplay density for RPGs for me. There are cool conversations about ideals but the gameplay is king
I've heard a lot of really cool stuff about the series, but have never played it personally. I do remember it having some kind of Fire Emblem crossover though, which sounds like perhaps it skews towards a tactical rpg audience?
@@TheElectricUnderground Majin Tensei and Devil Survivor are the only tactical RPG games in the franchise, but yeah they did cross over with Fire Emblem for some strange reason.
The main games are all JRPGs that prioritise combat and customisation (you fuse demons to inherit skills and stay on the level curve)
I still need to play the two Raidou Kuzunoha games on the PS2 because they are Action RPGs.
@@TheElectricUnderground Play SMT Nocturne or V, more so nocturne tho
@@TheElectricUnderground Even though Shin Megami Tensei is more of a typical turn based style game, you actually feel the tactical decisions during battle like you would during a tactics RPG. It's very good on the gameplay front.
I'd recommend Shin Megami Tensei V, the newest one. It's very light on the story and the story is ASS anyway so it's okay to skip it. It can feel like a purely gameplay focused RPG which might be what you're looking for
wait I just check and you never play STRANGER OF PARADISE???? how?
I have it actually ha, Bog is a massive fan of it so I'll probably be playing it and covering it on the channel in the future.
@@TheElectricUnderground OH!!!! Check the multiplayer mode.
I really need to play Stranger of Paradise!
As an RPG player i really didnt like it.
Its way to compromised and doesnt serve neither side well.
I really wonder if you would have been this positive if you didnt have Bayo3 and Re4 to compare it to.
Hmmm I wouldn't call my review positive necessarily ha. It's actually a lot more neutral and that's really my final feelings on the game. I think the idea in itself it a lot more appealing than either bayo 3 or remake4 (moving away from rpg design, whereas those two are moving towards RPG design), but the question is if FF16 is successful in doing that, which I think i critique fairly. I am more open to the idea of FF16 though, a real time combat FF games, so that's probably why my tone is more playful than the other reviews.
what you said about the late game ff 16 hit on. yea being animation locked in those long flashy spells on a cookie cutter stagger set up got boring. I enjoyed that first salamander lizard boss alot, I relied alot on movement and positioning rather then spamming dodge and doing the cookie cutter stagger set up. wished there was more skill expression in the combat. that's the only thing I really didn't dig in ff 16 other than the weak crafting system. Loved the mature setting with the epic music.
Can’t agree with you more! I’m a ACT and STG player, but I want to use World of Warcraft PVP as an example. I was a top Druid PVP player, the reason I can win is because of all the details and thoughts in every execution. I accumulate advantage using the game mechanics like 2 yard longer attacking distance or a bit more speed and control that with precision and planning. But I’m so disappointed that nowadays, it’s like a turn based card game, the game designers just make the prescriptive actions and combos for you. The strength of a character is no longer determined by skills and details. 1 v 2, 1v 3 show is literally not fun like the older and greater versions.
Oh I love when action game strats (like movement manipulation) sneaks it s way into rpg meta ha. Another fun example of that is all the micro movement meta in brood war. Brood war is an rts, but with unit movement manipulation it starts to play like an action game and can Break out of the rpg stats
you should try out kh2fm for the combat
This is what i've heard :-) I might have to at some point :-)
Thank you for the very detailed review (as usual)- i still haven't bought FFVI, as my PS5 broke a couple of months back, but that's clearly the first game i'll buy in tandem with a new PS5.
No problem my friend!! Yeah FF16 is a pretty cool sweetspot for people who like character action games and are interested in some FF graphical goodness ha. i just hope the rebalance the combat soon so that summon spam isn't so strong and central to the combat by the end.
@@TheElectricUnderground 🙏
I’m a huge RPG fan, but even I am sick of RPG mechanics into non-RPG games. Sometimes it can work really well like Batman Arkham skill trees making your arsenal more diverse, expanding the ways you can fight. I feel like a lot of games combine action and RPG elements which are two systems that can be complex, but when combined together they seem to cancel out each other’s complexity.
Edit: whether or not the story is there to supplement the game play or the other way around for RPGs all depends on the game. Plenty of games are very focused on the balancing and customization and plenty are about the storytelling. Dragon Quest 3 is all about the class customization and creating an interesting team, and something like Final Fantasy VI is way more focused on the stories it can tell. For western examples Wizardry is all about the dungeon crawling which has next to no story and something like KOTOR is about the narrative choices and character interaction.
the thing the I felt when I played FFXVI is that they really wanted to abandon the rpg elements and just wanted to go full action game, but for obligatory purposes, they were forced to put some sort of rpg element.
Completely agree with that. It felt a little half baked in some areas where the RPG elements seem forced. I’m genuinely enjoying the storyline, and even the combat grew on me as I played. I’m about 70% through the game and the pros have made up for the flaws for me.
I completely disagree with that given the Producer/Director's track record, which I don't know why anyone covering this game would just choose to ignore, including all of the interviews with him.
Naoki Yoshida was in charge of directing Final Fantasy XIV and while it gained popularity and became a success by flat out copying WoW(seeing a trend here?) it also meant that, in an attempt to gain mass popularity, that is to say, attract a newer casual audience, he would end up streamlining and removing anything that would resemble an RPG(it sounds way more similar now huh).
Gear with minimal stats, treadmills that do nothing for you character or the world that take a long while to fill up, jobs that are very similar to one another. Linear story with zero role-playing to do, no customization at all ever aside from visual.
He's the great streamliner. The lack of RPG mechanics is completely intentional, not something he bargained for. Just enough to be an RPG but not quite enough to have any depth.
I'm just gauging a sentiment based on several passing comments I've seen on this channel. But I'm glad I'm far from the only one these days that really really was not a fan of modern Zelda. I'm sure most people here probably aren't a fan of the series in general. But I grew up on them and love the bulk of the series to the point where I auto pilot most of them.
These last two games though?
I'm good, Nintendo. You can miss me with the padded, empty, "Make Your Own Fun (but actually don't because we have shitfuck loads of aggravatingly conflicting systems)" faux Ubisoft horseshit.
And that game was an infection too.
The fact that Sonic the goddamn Hedgehog is now Breath of the Wild is unreal to me and it really highlights your opening statements. Can't just be a damn platformer. Has to be FarCry now. Has to be Elder Scrolls now. We're solvin' block puzzles as the fastest thing alive and, for some goddamn reason, *BADLY* feigning Phantasy Star Online combat inbetween the RPG chores. All in a big boring world with no style or cohesion.
Do you consider Real-Time Combat RPG the same as Action RPG? At the very least they seem to have a lot of overlap: the action/combat system. The stats system and the itemization system will probably differ the most?
I would consider them different in overall design. Like I mentioned in the vid a design is more than just purely character mechanics, but rather how those mechanics are placed into the game design. So true real combat does involve a reliance on stuff like animations, cancels, and frame data. Whereas an action rpg can simply have hard programed sequences of attacks that just scale stat wise. So basically if you sword swing string was static and locked, that s action rpg. If you sword swing can be canceled and the timing and animations matter, then it s true real time combat.
Back in the day, I chose Demon’s Souls over Dragon Age Origins for my PS3. As a Bioware fan, I know I missed-out, but I have zero regrets in embracing Demon’s Souls. I wanted that merciless, realtime combat and unguided exploration so bad. RPGs needs variety beyond its bounds, but not beyond its means. Jade Empire, BG: Dark Alliance, Diablo 2, Tales-of, YYYs, Mass Effect, I mean…. Is it really the End of Days for RPG fans who have been embracing these changes for several, several years already? I don’t think it’s the fusion of genres that’s the issue I see. It’s the gentrification of overused game mechanics, that become too vanilla to taste different overtime, like… the new Avatar game Ubisoft is making. It looks waaaay too much like a FarCry clone for my tastes, complete with Outpost/Stronghold reprints of game design. Too safe, too samey. The immersion is more in the aesthetics than in the gameplay. Tangent aside, great video. Made me think about a lot of stuff here. Like Final Fantasy: Adventure on my GameBoy. Played just like Zelda. And that was 1991. I just think that the variety of RPG game design has been there for a good while. Why the fire? Lol.
Oh yes the souls series is such a strong fusion of rpg and character action because even though the combat is slower, it is still really fundimental as is emphasizing spacing and frame data. The reason why nioh is my fav souls game is that it takes that concept, but then adds in more character action elements like cancels (ki pulse) and just speeds combat up generally
@@TheElectricUnderground What you observe about the combat cancels in-particular with Nioh, Wanted: Dead, and FFXVI are really interesting. Spacing and frame data is the kind-of talk about fighting games. To me, Nioh is the ultimate example of how-to make a technically-proficient fighting game in Souls' form. And I JUST found-out about the complex tiers of New Game + for Nioh 2. They are truly a step above anything Soulslike that I've ever seen in-terms of gameplay complexity. And as a passionate fan of Chanbara films, I couldn't be happier with what's out there today for video games of this ilk. I'll be very much looking forward to your thoughts on Rise of the Ronin when it drops.
Final Fantasy/RPGs gameplay vs story:
I think combat is a minor reason to play these games. It always has been for me. Combat was not the primary thing that made me have fun. Even when I was a young child and played Zelda or Mario the thing that got me hooked was less the way I interacted with enemies, because I was bad at that. The challenge did not hook me. It was the ability to see more of the levels. Really, often just visually seeing more of the game world was my primary motivation, getting to experience some cool thing that only happens once you reach a specific stage (the chime and celebration of defeating a Zelda boss, getting a heart container). When FF7 and 8 and 9 dropped I was not in it to play with Materia, GF junctions or whatever. I wanted to see 3D worlds and move around in them and feel like I was living in that world. I wanted to enter a train and ride it somewhere, I wanted to go into a casino and play mini games, I wanted to ask strangers if they want to play cards, I wanted to seek out chocobo, tame them, breed them and ride them, I wanted to have an airship and see every little bit of ground texture there was to find in that polygon world, enter every hidden location and see what's in there.
Over time my tastes grew into other areas, mostly because the illusion of being in a game world became less and less obtainable for me. So I learned to settle for other stuff like learning to enjoy optimizing speed/score/damage output/control. A lot of the things arcade games are known for are definitely fun to me now, I got good at some of them. But the kick I get out of any of that is nowhere near what my childhood self got out of the fantasy of living in a video game world. So I fully expect that some people get A LOT out of experiencing the passive elements like cutscenes and stuff. I don't anymore. But man, they can pack a punch.
22:17 it's always been interesting (and somewhat annoying) to me how so much emphasis has been put on the story-side of video games in recent years. It's almost as if people conceive of video games now as vehicles to tell a story, rather than anything like, I dont know, have decent gameplay, be fun etc?. I remember watching a video review of Ninja Gaiden II here on TY, and the thing the guy spends most time on is the game's story... Who the F*** plays NG2 for the story? lol.
Unbelievable. I’ve been the guy who doesn’t care about story at all in video games. People get really heated over the story in a Sonic game.
Cool video as always, though you fail to realize FF always wanted to be an action series, if you read interviews with developers on older titles, like FF6 or 7, they ALWAYS wanted the series to be an action one but the gameplay was actually a compromise for a big story
The original Final Fantasy was basically an unlicensed Dungeons & Dragons game. Maybe Yoshinori Kitase and Tetsuya Nemura wanted to turn FF into an action game, but that sentiment doesn't reflect the franchise's origins.
Its funny that you enjoyed it somewhat thanks to the combat, me I need my RPGs to be turn based. When I want action I play action games. I dont really enjoy the mix.
Animation cancelling is a popular term for what you're describing. It was found on games like Super Smash Melee, or a less popular title called GunZ by iJJi.
They weren't intentional, but it was a happy accident that allowed players to push the boundaries and original intent of those games. Animation canceling is still rare to see in action RPGs though and I think DMC is one of the few that actually intentionally include those mechanics now.
I have no idea who dj420 praise it is, but i always listen out for it in the Patreon shout outs it's just funny how his name gets extra hype in your voice.
Beating the game unlocks the NG+ mode, which is also a stepped up difficulty mode called Final Fantasy mode that remixes the enemies in each level like you suggested, and in NG+ mode the arcade mode also let's you replay the stages on an even higher difficulty called Ultimaniac that heavily restricts your healing and boosts enemy damage values even more along with even more enemy remixing.
Yes I am aware of the extra NG+ mode, and I think it's a fun addition for players. But in terms of being able to deliver the full on character action experience, these modes are still too easy and exploitable. I think the fundamental issue of the special attacks being overpowered is going to be a long term issue with the game for character action players because they are just too optimal for the devs to easily balance around.
Right!, a full on action game. What a change. However, I do want to see a regular rpg comeback again.
I would be willing to bet that this move into some heavy action game design will not continue ha, I think this is more of an isolated incident in the series and ff17 will return to turn based combat.
@@TheElectricUnderground Yes, I think it will go back after this one. We still got FF Remake 2 on the way tho, lol. What is your twitter? I just made a video and shouted you out in it.
Uh dude, last I checked, an action RPG is still very much an RPG (see also; the Tales series, Seiken Densetsu, Nier/Nier Automata, etc).
I agree with you on Nier but not the tales series or the Mana series. You can feel the difference very heavily going from Bayonetta to the new tales of games and especially the old ones. Your attacks are very repetitive and very delayed at first and you have encounters instead of free form combat. Action RPG =\= Action game
Yes but this game is moving even further way from the "action rpg" style design. So the natural question I bring up in the vid, that I think is interesting to discuss, is how far can an RPG game move away from traditional RPG elements before it starts to alienate that fanbase? At this time I think no one actually knows ha, myself included.
Coming back to this nearly a year later. I really enjoyed this take on FF16. I loved it for the most part. I'll concede that it's a little to easy for a game this long but it didn't bother me. The only major complaint I have is on the games pacing. I'll never understand putting not one but two full chapters of filler in-between two of the biggest story beats in the game. Just a weird choice and definitely a miss there.
I'm glad my review has connected with you because it's a unique perspective on the game I think ha, and I agree that the game could have been something extremely cool if they had tightened up the pace more and then balanced the spells at the end to be less OP so that the melee combat stayed more central :-)
Hey. Do you like a game that is called Viewtiful Joe? In my opinion TW101, Bayonetta 1 and VJ 1 are the best action titles ever made (I'm yet to play ninja gaiden sigma 2). Knowing your taste in games I really think you would find a lot to apreciate in Viewtiful Joe.
Oh yes i remember viewtiful joe ha. I haven't played it in years and years so I would need to replay it to share my thoughts ha. One really fun under rated action game I'd like to shout out though is Dead to Rights by Namco, that game is so cool and sadly there is not really any high level gameplay out there which is interesting.
Perfectly summarized video of my experiences. I feel bad watching people make long combos because eventually it's a detriment since Eikons start pumping out crazy damage/stagger (wtf does Impulse do so much, Jesus) making combos wholly inefficient, FFXVI/Bayonetta comparison was very good, it's the reason why I prefer Bayo 2; summons are too OP (Tarantula self-nuke to clear most waves is pretty efficient) and/or it sends enemies flying too much.
I think the main value of RPGs is that most RPG players like doing Strategy etc and finding the most optimal solutions etc but I will always prefer skills over having to min/max builds and the like. At least for me, I'd rather die to skill issues than because RNGesus doing OHK moves constantly, running out of items, money/exp grinding etc.
I value efficiency the most when I play and Action Games offer that more than some RPGs.
PS. I hate Animation Locks, I still wonder how I beat NG1 when I was younger....
I am a fan of action games and JRPGs with fighters and JRPGs being my 2 favourite genres but I look for different things in each. If I play an action game gameplay is king, if you can also make a great story thats fantastic but I do not expect it and would rather they not waste time on making crap like awful story content we seem to get in games like SF, Tekken, DOA, MK etc these days just bring back the short character endings. With JRPGs its the opposite for me where the story is by far the most important thing and gameplay is not the focus.
My fears with FF16 were that it would fall somewhere in the middle and not be a great RPG or a great action game and playing the demo I was convinced not to buy it until it gets a deep sale. I also got heavy Bayonetta 3 vibes from it which was by far my least favourite Bayonetta game only FF16 looked way better but felt like it had even more lackluster mechanics and level design. It just was not a combat system that incentivised or demanded a level of mastery and I would just much rather be playing Ninja Gaiden, Nioh, Devil May Cry 1 and 3, Sekkiro, Bayonetta 1 and 2, Vanquish or numerous other action games.
I will get the game eventually but I wish they had found a way to make a more unique combat system that blended the genres sort of like a more involved form of FFVII remakes instead of just making a fundamentally sound but unimaginative action system. I do wish they had allowed Nier Automata the same level of polish this game received as I feel that game does a much better job of creating its own system even if it is rough around the edges and like 16 feels like the outside help they got to make the battle system while very talented just phoned it in rather than bringing their A game.
Story wise it is to early to tell for me with the demo but I am very sceptical in that regards with FF nowadays as I have not been satisfied with a FF story since X back in 2000 and that includes the story of FFXIV but from the demo it felt very FFXIV like in its structure which raised a lot of red flags for me on that front.
If it was £40 I likely would have tried it due to how much I loved FFIV-X but at £65 its going to have to be something that really impresses me and the demo did not do that except with the visual presentation which is the one area Square show they are among the best.
By the sound of your comment you made a super accurate read on ff16 ha. Yes around the middle it starts to struggle with balancing it s mechanics and gets in this nasty middle zone between op rpg summon combat but still trying to be real time as well. I think waiting for the game to go on sale is a wise move, especially since I think the combat needs some rebalancing, by that time hopefully the game will play better and be cheaper ha. Also $70 for a game is insane
in Ys 8 you had to attack with your sword to build mana to use the special abilities, also if you killed something with the special ability it would give you half the mana back, kinda like nioh I guess.
Damn shame to hear it sucks, I was thinking it looked pretty cool from the trailers.
I’m a fan of older Final fantasy games (4-9 era) but haven’t really enjoyed the direction they’ve taken it since the PS2.
well it's sort of in a middle ground Dingo, much like Bayo 3. The big difference between it and Bayo 3 though, is that Bayo 1 exists, which is a much stronger action game that Bayo 3 is supposed to follow up on, whereas this is the first FF action game (and likely the only ha), so it has less of a legacy to fill - at least in terms of combat. It's talking the L in terms of RPG design though, but I don't play RPG games so I don't really mind that ha.
@@TheElectricUnderground true, I listened to more of the review and got a better understanding of your stance. Good review, I like the graphics for sure
I think it depends on how it is announced or revealed. For example, if gameplay is revealed before story or plot, then better gameplay is expected. Same goes visa versa
For me, there is no reason gameplay and story need to be separate with one being the focus over the other. But if I had to nail down and point at a singular part of RPGs that makes it through all of these games and that makes them worthwhile to play it would be ROLE-PLAYING. That is, even though I am using the protagonist, I am choosing how to play. I'm adapting the party to my playstyle or executing a specific strategy, for flavor or for function, because I want to do it.
The game provides the tools for me to play how I want, I can tackle the side quests I want, I can go wherever I want. I'll obtain something or perhaps even unlock a whole new character with its own new set of variables and it will all be my choice to do so. I think that's what RPGs are or should be about.
If you think about it, FF games with little to no choice, or variance, or 'role-playing' were received very poorly. FF13 practically massacred the series. FF15 was also a joke for most people because the open world was weak and offered little to no role-playing. I also put FF14 in there, one of the worst MMORPGs to poison the genre. FF16 seems to follow this awful trend with the Director Naoki Yoshida streamlining things that are too complicated (too Japanese) out of this game as well (just like he did with FF14) in 'an attempt to gain a younger audience'. Just look at the sales for this particular game, people aren't having this pseudo-RPGs in their Final Fantasy anymore.
Did you play Stranger of Paradise? That game is everything I would expect a Final Fantasy action RPG to be. Great story, great gameplay, VERY in-depth RPG mechanics that actually improve the gameplay rather than get in the way of combat. It's a very nice Nioh-like in terms of mechanics but with the classic classes from FF.
I'm into both action games and RPGs. I've finished several FF, SMT and DQ games, and I've finished several action games to 100% completion such as DMC4, Vanquish, and DMC5. It honestly feels like FFXVI was made for me. It has fun gameplay coupled with a cheesey yet enjoyable story. Personally, I'd love to see the framework of FFXVI to be used to make a Vampire Hunter D game complete with the potential of crazy bosses. Only issues for me is that it's too easy and the structure in certain points of the game (like the Mid quests) were pretty bad.
I'll say this. Regarding the mechanic where the camera would zoom into where you need to go, it's not too big of an issue. Reason for that is it's pretty common for modern RPGs to have waypoints. So is there really a difference between the camera zooming into to where you need to go and some mini-map telling you where to go? Not really.
Yes the game is really aimed at that crossover audience which I don't even know is a good business move ha, but it is a pretty cool concession made to action game players. But absolutely they made the game too easy and the balance needs work, as you can just steamroll most the game with special attacks midpoint onward. Also good point on the camera navigation ha
0:10 that genre of game is the award or goty genre.
Interesting analysis I still need the game for PC as I hate Sony but, this game caught my attention, did you play the DLCs?
FF is easier until you find those mytical soab Bahamut, Virtue, Omega they are hell.
I don't have a really thorough understanding of what makes an RPG - perhaps the truest RPG I've played hasn't been electronic but instead tabletop - I don't mind RPG elements though and usually encourage more of them even if they're considered fluff - I remember when Souls refined things more in Bloodborne then onto Sekiro I found myself wishing I had more stats and alternative approaches to things rather than a more distilled/condensed experience but still very much enjoyed those games
Maybe when I think about my favorite RPG Disco Elysium which is essentially a text-adventure then it might be the amount of choice I have and with something like table-top the boundary for that is "the imagination" and the regulating device is "the character sheet"
Your review of the combat here is great. Love this game, favorite since DMC5
Hey mani do think you should check out some different RPGs, such as Etrian Odyssey (which is my favourite series) and Shin Megami Tensei as they’re quite quite focused on party composition. BUT they do heavily involve managing a party’s skills/stats so probably wouldn’t be your cup of tea. I just wanted to point out some RPGs are heavily gameplay based
Awesome analysis!
Thank you very much Davi!
Awesome review!
Thank you with my friend!
Kingdom hearts 2 final mix on critical level 1 is the closest thing an RPG has ever been to a character action game (despite its problems) I played, and one of the few games where I think that being unable to cancel attacks is a relatively good idea.
I'd love to weigh in with my thoughts on Kingdom hearts, but I have not played the series and probably am unlikely to because the whole Disney aspect of the game is a massive turn off ha. I have heard a lot of good things about its combat design though, so I could see it being really solid.
@@TheElectricUndergroundThat would be cool, but I feel like those thoughts would be too similar to what you think here, as I feel like FF16 gameplay-wise has all the same ups and downs of the entire KH series.
I'd bring up the Tales series myself. Especially the older ones (but post-Eternia) and especially the 2D ones. But...to say that series is a mess to recommend is an understatement since every game varies wildly in quality and what they get right and wrong and all of them have some caveat to them (like how long it takes for the controls to stop sucking in Vesperia).
@@aguywithgames3135 yeah, it's true that when he criticised the magic in ff16, he was critiquing the command deck from bbs and ddd even without knowing the command deck.
@@mikelpelaez Hit the nail on the head, some things in this game are just straight out of the actual action series they’ve had for the last twenty years.
Mark you should make a video with Erick Landon about rpg or rpg elements in other genres.
To this day if i hear music from 7, 8 and X. I get goosebumps. Fell in love with those games and characters. I miss those days with turn based Rpgs. I liked the 7 remake for what it was but part of me would love if it was still turn based. I payed no attention to this game. But seeing this makes me think that maybe i was wrong. I do live my action games. DMC, NG, Blood Borne. Something about Square makes me not happy with how they do things. Non sense stories like KH, and also how they are milking FF7 remake and making us wait 10 years for the full story. Ill be 50 by the time they have the remake story done. Wait 25 years for a remake then another 10 WTF square? Might get this.
Oh yeah classic FF has such great music, I listen to and never have played most of the games ha. Square are all over the place as a dev, but I find it kind of funny how that are so much more sharply criticized for FF7 meanwhile Capcom is literally remaking all of the resi games and no one bats an eye ha. This game is really hard to predict what groups of people will like it, I have a soft spot for it but I can't give a full on recommendation either ha. Such an interesting case, I m really curious how it will be looked back on in the future
Ah yes, one of the side-effects of the cancer known as AAA gaming. When you put everything in a game, you end up with nothing. Role playing games should be about role playing and choices that matter, being immersed in the world, and good storylines especially if it's a turn based JRPG, not being a generic action game with level ups and skill systems. A lot of RPG fans barely understand RPGs these days, which is annoying especially when you see some people act like Skyrim is a masterpiece when it's a generic open world action game with RPG systems attached.
This is getting almost as bad as the music industry where so many bands/artists started chasing the crossover hit and watered down their music so much that genres disappear for all the wrong reasons.
I still don't understand why Square Enix doesn't want to do a turn based Final Fantasy game again. That's what a lot of the FF fans really want, but SE does not want to do that. I'm not really interested in FF being an action game either TBH.
Watch them do it to mainline dragon quest just like they tried it with front mission evolved and FF16 lol.
@@voideyezz3234I don't think that would go over well with the Japanese audience, which is most of the DQ fanbase.
I just mash buttons bro square square square and triangle triangle triangle triangle triangle and the animations on screen does sicks combos for u
I appreciate you sir. You convinced me to not get the RE4REMAKE,and you’ve now convinced me to get FF16. I will admit I was hesitant with this one,as FF15 was an auto one button game,and FF7 REMAKE was good,but too linear.
Character action games are my favorite genre of games. It depends on the game for me to play a game that is Turn base but I prefer real time action.
They absolutely are in my top 4. I'd rank my favs - shmups, fighting games, beat em ups, then character action :-)