I have known for 15 years ADHD wasn't my whole story. But I was completely shocked to learn I have high autistic traits. My (predominant autistic) traits were ignored until I finally saw someone who specializes in diagnosing adults. So, at 65, a psychiatric nurse 35+ years, and it was the RUclips algorithm (and videos like yours) that finally helped me see. I cannot believe I have had to work this hard, just to figure it out. I haven't done "just fine". I never thought I would make 65 (And, thankfully in my case, no kids). I have been in autistic burnout for years and nearly died over it! We (as a mental health professional) should be getting educated about this!!!
Sad to hear that. Don't stop trying to get a formal diagnose and therapy support. Recent research has found even at late ages (meaning way later than yours) having an explanation after a lifetime of uncertainty is still really helpful and should be sought after all. My own story confirms that (44 only found I'm autistic 3 years ago) and it's a humongous difference compared to how we grew up without knowing at all. Your story about being related to healthcare jobs isn't unheard of, and yes I'm with you they should educate healthcare practitioners a lot more about this, after all they cater for really a lot of undiagnosed autistic people but they don't know either, and the ways they use aren't always the best suited for autistic patients.
It is shocking to realize that certain 'problems' you may have had are not due to "not trying hard enough". Thank you for your comment, this 62 year old can relate!
At 67, My son told me that autism is a genetically inherited, and that I am autistic. This was unexpected, but great news. That was a year ago. My dad died 10 years ago and never knew he was autistic. Autistic realization is now just climbing out of the dark ages. Thanks to individuals like The Autistic Guy, and Proudly Autistic, I now have videos I can learn from and show my family and friends as to what it's like to have to live like I do.
You said the magic phrase, 'RUclips Algorithm'! It's fascinating, to me, how it just seems to know exactly what I need to watch right when I need it. I wonder if it's a bit like how divination formats like tarot or runes work to channel what we know but don't know we know. What is it called when you hear a word (for example) and then seem to hear it over and over again in a short period? Is that confirmation bias? In it's most rudimentary form - I suppose the RUclips Algorithm bases it's suggestions on what we've already been looking at. It gives us options and, from them, we further define our path.
@@EddWilenchik Unless you insist on working in the worst possible environments, in which case, you lose ability to mask and cope. It's not a recommended way to go! Definitely work WITH your traits, instead of trying to beat into yourself to be what you can't be (I was raised ableist and didn't know any better!).
i originally found the children of narcissists' community and thought i fit in there until i was diagnosed autistic and realized my N parent was probably undiagnosed autistic as well and it explained his shitty parenting (along with alcoholism). interesting how much overlap there is between the 2
I have always hated myself because what was happening in my head was beyond my understanding and my control. At 67, My son told me that autism is a genetically inherited, and that I am autistic. This was unexpected, but great news. That was a year ago. Knowing why we are like we are, made a profound difference in my life. At work, I am well known because of the positive aspects of my autism. But I had to try and hide the negative side because I didn't understand it and could not explain it.🤐 I've been working there 10 years. I'm still the same person, I just understand myself a lot better now. I'm working hard at finding ways to better live with myself. I am now openly autistic, and tell people what I like, don't like, and why. Me being happier and calmer is a win/win for everyone. I like when I'm by myself, am not moved or bothered, and given a difficult task to perfect. I work better, set records, and become almost supper human at what I do. By doing this, I have shown them it is to their advantage to treat me in the way that I want to be treated. I now work with my autism and do not have to try so hard to hide it. I am much happier now. Thank you for sharing your experiences with us. We appreciate you both.😁
It's easy to understand why it was difficult for Karen to discover that she is autistic since it was covered in layer upon layer of trauma. In my case, my autism was masked by what I thought was extreme social anxiety so it took me 39 years to finally find out the truth.
I too come from a narcissistic parent. They've passed away thank God. I cut off contact with this narcissistic parent for 20+ years until near their death bed. I, along with my sister, finally got to say to them what we always wanted to say and they couldn't retort, retaliate or try and make it about them in their final month of life. We got the closure that many, many kids of narcissistic parents never get. I too have to choose carefully who I 'come out' to in terms of both my sexuality and my neuro-diverse status. For government jobs in my home state of NSW, Australia, even though there is a field in which I can request accommodations can be made for my autism, I often don't fill it in because I know that they will pick someone who hasn't filled that field in against someone who has. I also am wary of community and wider staff ramifications if I do 'out' myself. It's actually easier to come out as gay than to come out as Autistic/neuro-diverse. Depending on the situation, both of them can lead to your literal death. I am also Asian. I'm brown. So I'm a triple minority. Karen talks of the constant need to fight around employment; that's been my entire life. Workplaces love the fact that I'm "smart" and think differently to create awesome systems and procedures to get things done efficiently. Every single job I've ever had, everything I have now, I've had to fight for. I've had to push myself to my limit to hold my ground, to prove in a way that no neuro-typical person will ever have to do. Because the alternative to masking, to doing all this, is to be hungry and to be homeless. I hope we can go from thriving to surviving too one day Orion.
@rogerram... I haven't read your whole comment yet, but enough to sense how miserably challenged your life has been (so sorry). I sure can relate to some of those job feelings you had, as well as feeling forced to mask for survival.
I listened to the entire video. Thank you for providing material for parcing. It is a lot that was said. Much for consideration. I appreciate your articulation of your views and stands.
I resonated with this conversation so hard it reduced me to tears. Thank you for such an articulate conversation as Karen put into words thoughts that I haven't been able to verbalise as a fellow Autistic woman, mother and professional. Best wishes to you both
Omg. I had the same response. I was in tears from watching this woman's history within her family. And only because i could relate so much. And i suddenly felt validated for the first time in my life. I was watching it late at night. I couldn't believe some of the exact similarities this woman experienced. Especially with one of her parents. I think my jaw literally dropped when she described how one of her parents called her a narcissist. Because that would happen over and over again to me too. I couldn't understand why anyone would call their child this name. I would try so hard to please my parent. And I'd work so hard around the house. And I'd buy my parent anything and everything I could think of to try and make her happy. And I'd come out fighting so hard for her anytime she was under attack from anyone else. I looked up to her so much. I'd cook things I knew she liked. I got good grades. I went to Uni. I did whatever she told me to. Hearing this woman's story struck me like lightning. I didn't know this happened to anyone else. And then there was the question in the video about wether or not her parent might have been Autistic too. Which I'd also thought about in regards to my own parent too. I could only ever think it was one of a few reasons in my situation. Either my parent was autistic or narcissistic themselves. Or i used to think she must be right and that I was narcissistic. But none of my best friends, partners or other relatives had ever said anything like that to me. They'd say the opposite and that I was very empathetic towards people and animals. And I've also known narcissistic females and males. I couldn't relate to them and I couldn't stand them or their company. I think my parent was in alot of pain from her own childhood. And I never realised her explosions of unpredictable rage were probably due to having no outlet for that pain. And I think my parent had an autistic mother. So my parent was carrying so much pain from having been so completely emotionally deprived. But still, my childhood hurt more than I can explain. And my adult relationship with her continued to hurt just as much and even more.
@@eviefittell2937 I sometimes get the impression some clinicians downplay the significance of acknowledgment and, instead, dismiss it with a judgment that that need comes from someone who is "personality disordered".
I grew up not knowing I was Autistic. I was and really am still shy. I didn't fit in but I still had few friends. Some I "hung out" with during lunch, they would ignore me. I was bullied too by some friends. I was diagnosed as Autistic as an adult. Thank you both for sharing your stories! It helps me know I'm not alone.
My mom, I'm pretty sure, is narcissistic. Feel overwhelmed because of how I feel. Might leave my job... Don't want to show up to people that don't appreciate me. Thank you guys so much for both of your podcasts. You're not alone.
You have no idea how much you have helped me...probably saved my life even and helped me connect to my son. We are both Autistic...and I bought your book. Thank you for all you do!
Wow, I really understood what she meant about other issues like narcisism and moving around masking autism from the doctor's point of view. I grew up in a cult like group, and moved country a few times as a child. My current psychologist attributes most of my issues to that, but I'm becoming increasingly confident that it's actually autism.
Your story is so like mine just add adoption, takes to a whole new level, I was a adoptee with narc parents and late diagnosed, Cptsd and narc relationships. Thank you for sharing, it inspires me to share my story. ❤
I knew 'something' was wrong in my family at 5 years old. As a gifted child, all I wanted was to be normal and have normal friends. I blossomed in high school, crashed in college, struggled at work and keeping jobs, and relationships have always been rocky so I quit dating 20 years ago. I self identified at 64 years old, and for the last few weeks have been watching my whole life unfold, this time with captions.
I relate so much. Went no contact with my narcissistic family at 38, diagnosed with autism at 44 & need to get tested for Adhd. I exhibit strong traits, having the answer neurodivergent has been a lifesaver, I have been a single parent the last 15 years to two children. No wonder I find everything so hard, these vids from this channel & others have been profoundly life changing. I think I mixed up many autism/adhd symptoms as CPTSD & vice versa. Suicidal ideation, excessive anxiety & burnout are like my best friends, the self shame & self gaslighting, I just have so many answers I didn't have before that explain so much wrong in my life & why I never seem to get anywhere or why i haven't felt fixed after so much healing work. Thankyou so much for all you do ❤👌 Edited to add, I do think my narcissistic parent has similiar traits to autism however her abusive side, letting her boyfriends beat us, the cruel comments, the controlling behaviour, the constant digs, making you doubt yourself, the nitpicking & beginning to psychologically abuse my children as they developed their autonomy, the triggering of my youngest one because of her moods, & enjoying upsetting her, it was definitely narcissistic behaviour rather than someone neurodivergent. The cruelty & and lack of empathy is the teller.
Mixing up autism/adhd and CPTSD: They overlap, they are not easy to parse out. In my experience the CPTSD has been the most debilitating of the three. I'm used to being an undiagnosed ADHD (I was only diagnosed with ADHD and Autism at 69) and have skills to manage it. Autism: I was a high functioning/high masking Autistic female (and therefore not diagnosed, cause girls can't be autistic). I helped both my brother and sister get diagnosed, and realized my mother was Autistic long before I realized that I, too, was Autistic. I was just higher functioning, and better at masking. Now that I'm not faking and facilitating I have been much more challenging toward people who try to run me over and that's a whole other problem (not that I shouldn't challenge them, but that it exhausts and depresses me that I have to do this). It was easier to morph into what "they" wanted to see and work with, because, frankly, I'm way smarter and capable than most of the neurotypical co-workers I've known. I can, and have, played to THEIR strengths for decades. But I'm tired of it.
@profilingmanipulation I'm so sorry you grew up in that environment as well. I went no contact 10 years ago. My parents haven't even met my son because it was conditioned on having an honest conversation with me and taking responsibility moving forward. Apparently that was too much to ask.
🤯🫂😱😥 do you live in my family? Did we grow up together??? Every word you said is what I'm dealing with except I'm watching my narcissistic parents abuse my brother's children. 😮
@@LadywatchingByrd They probably had it done to them too. Playing their kids off against each other, letting them blame and attack each other. Some families are sick like that, they can't let their sibling just be decent to each other, even their favoured child thinks they're special. but in reality they are just the weakest, most easily controlled. Trying to repeat the cycle over and over until they are the only ones who care don't dare meet each other to find out what exactly happened.
An amazing conversation thank you. I relate to so many things Karen said. From not having friends as a child. I tied myself in knots to make friends as a teenager. Masking to seem “normal” and fit in. Being diagnosed with BPD only getting my Autism diagnosis last year. This impacted my whole life.
45yo Male - Diagnosed AT 45. - The WORLD gave me C-PTSD, and now I'm supposed to learn to "Love Life"... MOVED: Age 1-5: Moved 8-10 times. Age 5-15: Moved 7 times. SCHOOLS: Two Elementary; THREE Middle Schools; Two High Schools.
Ok, still haven't finished the whole video, but just before the 36 minute mark Orion said something I REALLY have to voice my disagreement with. It was something like, "having an autistic diagnosis will KILL just about any opportunity in your life," then went into detail. I'm a 42yo single father of 4, twice divorced from abusive women, suffering employment problems since the last one; and when I got the job offer of a lifetime about 7 months ago, it made me so anxious I FINALLY sat down to do some screeners online, and it has been the most freeing thing I've experienced in my adult life. I FINALLY know exactly what is reasonable to expect of myself. I FINALLY know that I'm not broken, just a legit weirdo. How cool is that!? So now I FINALLY have the opportunity to pursue healthy relationships, fulfilling employment. I have more opportunities NOW than I ever have before. That's all. Just had to get that out. Otherwise, enjoying the conversation.
Thank you both, you mean so much to me and have helped me a lot. CPTSD, narcissistic child abuse, that was all hard enough to come to terms with. But autism explains the rest of me and without the content like you guys make I never would've even considered getting assessed at 25. I had such stereotypical ideas of what autism was and I never would've figured out what it was that's been causing suffering all my life it weren't for content like yours. I (and my partner of 8 years who has to live with me! :) ) thank you guys so much for making me feel less alone and for one of the first times in my entire life, understood.
Thank you Karen. I have seen the shorts with you and was anxious about watching more because I felt it would cut too close for me. Its been validating and reassuring hearing your experiences. Its not easy to do it, its so painful and it was kind of you to speak to this so those who've had something similar can feel less alone. Thank you. And thanks to Orion for the interview. You did a great job & really nice to see how your questions and responses supported Karen's experience and contrasted with your own.
Very interesting discussion. I seldom hear people discuss anything about the particular problems faced by older, undiagnosed autistics who are also caregivers for severely autistic children. There is no way that I would ever seek an official diagnosis. The people I have to deal with to advocate for my son's needs already dislike me, accuse me of having a "bad attitude" and treat me as if I am stupid and know nothing about my own son's very specialized diagnosis/profile. If I had a formal diagnosis of being on the spectrum that would just get 100 times worse. I find your videos very useful because they help me try to fortify my mask (which unfortunately is failing rapidly due to aging and accumulated trauma) so thank you very much. I hope that in future maybe you could try to speak to the particular difficulties faced by parents such as myself, because it's extremely soul-destroying and no one in neurotypical society understands or cares.
I live in a country where people don't know much about autism, they believe that you're autistic only if you were diagnosed when you were a little child (but for some reason as soon as you're 18, you are diagnosed with a light form of schizophrenia. hence, you can't get diagnosed if you're an adult). yesterday I told my narcissistic mother that I suspect myself of being autistic. I didn't want it to happen spontaneously, I prepared a whole presentation about all the information on ASD, on my life, my feelings, my suspicions of being autistic which I explored for almost half a year now... but we failed to have a conversation so I couldn't tell them. and yesterday I had a meltdown, my mother appeared and started saying something like "stop crying; enough; is that because of that stupid trash? (that's the topic we had previously after which my father told me many awful things) come on, that's stupid" and touching me, I tried to tell her to give me a minute (if you're an autistic person you know it cannot be stopped immediately), so I had to tell her about my suspicions once I managed to calm a little and I was able to speak. and she laughed in my face and said that I'M NOT AUTISTIC BECAUSE I DIDN'T SHOW ANY TRAITS IN CHILDHOOD (funny enough she likes to proudly tell other people that I was a very quiet child, I didn't start speaking or walking for long time, she didn't have troubles with me at all, which are QUITE THE TRAITS of an autistic person). she also yelled at me, she started saying bad words, cursed, she became furious, broke the door in my room, said that I must be in a mental hospital for my words, I was so afraid that she would beat me or hurt me in some other way... and she was drunk. I understand, that I should've kept my mouth shut. we had pretty trusting relationship so I thought she would understand me and support me... a lot happened that night. I messaged my brother and begged him to calm our mother (she always listens to him, she loves him). she then came back, made me hug her against my will (I did it so she won't get angry again and hurt me), I had to suffocate from cigarette smell (I hate it so much, I literally can't breathe it, it's like inhaling fire; my parents know I can't stand it yet they never cared), I had to nod when she said "we will just forget that nonsense (she meant my words about asd) and stop arguing, right?". I was very scared for my life, couldn't sleep... this was the most atrocious birthday of mine I don't have the resources to either leave this country, or this house unfortunately. I don't have friends, no one who would save me, support me, help me. I don't want to die but I don't want to live like this either... I am really glad for the people who live in countries where you can get diagnosed as an adult if you suspect ASD, even if it's difficult or expensive. thank you for reading this if you did, I needed to share this somewhere. please, be happy and stay safe
I am so sorry. I wish I was in a position to be able to help. It is an awful way to live. Don't give up and find a community you can resonate with and possibly learn of other resources. ,🙌🙏💓
I read your sad story and I understand you must feel terrible. Feeling unsafe with your own parent in your own house is maddening. I know.... Hold on and allow yourself to dream of a different life. It always starts with a deeply felt wish of what it is that you DO want. Perhaps a far-fetched option that I am about to suggest to you. 1 life. I wish you good trauma treatment and freedom. Maybe you can try to apply for asylum? You could just copy your reaction overhere and it is a heart felt motivation letter. Maybe even stronger if you can put into words what it is you DO want. (For me that is safety, quietness, financial stability, healthy habits that suit my abilities to execute them i a way that does not cause me too much stress) Belgium, apparently, has excellent autism specialist, so my Dutch therapist told me. Took me 5 years of therapy to overcome this. My wellbeing improved a great deal after not feeling the need anymore to please out of submission . I still enjoy doing nice things for other people but when they continue to behave badly towards me, I choose a nicer person to spend my time with. Always willing to listen to wishes that are spoken in a kind and non-demanding way. That was my dark side of the moon. Often I used to be kind, but I could also behave demandingly, to my own horror. Once my awareness of this unkind behavior started to grow, I more and more could consciencely choose healthier behavior. Wish you tons of (self) love. They cannot. If they could they would, you know, sad as it is. It took me years to feel love for myself. I used to be my worst critic. That way I could be reaonably sure that my best wóuld be good enough (please, please).
I was diagnosed with tourettes syndrome and ADD as a child, but now the diagnosis criteria is different and if I was the same child today it would be called autism now.
I feel her so much. When I was diagnosed the first feeling (after liberation because of understanding) was anger against my narcissistic mother and my psycopathic father because they took advantage of my condition to cause even more damage and suffering. Grieve for the idea I had of me and what my future could look like came later.
Narcissistic parents seems to be a theme in some of the stories here. I never expected this. I can't ever explain how grateful I am for seeing this video. I always thought I was imagining the abuse. And I was always told that I was the abuser. And I was called alot of names no matter how hard I tried to support the emotions of my single parent. And no matter how hard I worked to try and make my single parent feel loved and happy. I just wanted their love, care, empathy and approval. And there was no other healthy or normal close adult around to tell me otherwise. I originally couldn't comment when I first saw this video because it was so close to home. And because I went into shock. And because tears were streaming down my face when I realised I really was gaslighted by the very person I needed, idolised, loved and unconditionally trusted the most over a lifetime.... before I finally had to withdraw from constant fear, extreme anxiety, continued repetitive trauma, repeated pain, confusion, doubting the reality of it all and cognitive dissonance etc.
My younger years are almost identical to hers. She he only difference is my mom was so overwhelmed with me that she fought for me to be diagnosed ADHD. I learned way too late that it was just a means to try and control me so they were happier. I’m 35 now. And it hurts realizing my “prime years” could’ve been better
I was diagnosed at 57. Just about a year and a half ago. I didn't have a particularly traumatic childhood. My father was a minister and we moved frequently enough and I had to learn to act like a normal kid at a very young age so that I wouldn't make my father look bad to the parishioners. Still I was labeled as extremely shy throughout my youth. I spent decades seeing therapists, psychologists, and psychiatrists. I was in and out of hospitals. The first inkling that I had that there was something else going on was when a psychiatrist at a hospital said I had a schizoid personality disorder. It was about 5 years ago when my wife said she thought I was autistic. I sought out a diagnosis when a family friend who has an autistic husband and children told my wife I was clearly autistic.
Growing up in a screwed up environment absolutely camouflaged my autism. Part of that was moving schools every three months. I totally blamed my inability to make connections on that. At least, until I saw it in my own child, who wasn’t moved around a lot.
I’ve been struggling to remember my childhood, examining myself with new eyes, for the past 8 months and it is difficult. It was decades ago. Listening to another describe theirs really helped. Thanks to both of you for putting this video together.
Thank you so much Orion and Karen. This is a great pod cast!! So much to think about in this discussion, as a late diagnosed woman. These discussions are very helpful :) (wanted to put emoji but they are not working...)
This is a very similar story to my own. I developed FND after my divorce. I'd previously been diagnosed with depression, anxiety, Borderline Personality disorder. But every time I spoke to a therapist they said I sound like I'm calm and rational and have a huge amount of self insight. I couldn't understand why therapists would think I'm fine when I could be overwhelmed and thinking about taking my own life on the same day. Finding out that I'm autistic has joined the dots between the "mystery" of my physical health and mental health and my whole life suddenly makes sense. I would love if Proudly Autistic made a video about her experience with FND. When I was diagnosed, the idea that it could be linked with neurodivergence was not raised, and I wonder how many others with FND are also undiagnosed.
The neurotypicals needs to be "fixed" with therapy and more so that all can be who they are without having these issues. These issues are less about the brain of an neurodiverse person and more about attitudes and knowledge/understanding within the brains of neurotypicals.
Wow! 😮 This is just blowing me away. I can't stop crying and rethinking my life... I can't thank both of you enough. It feels like I just found the other half of a puzzle that's been missing for 51 years. I've been so SO down and depressed and stuck. So grateful to have found these channels.
I saw one of this woman's videos before. I only saw one. I didn't realise this was her back story until now. I want to cry. I can't say anymore. My mother called me a narcissist too. I was just a young girl. I did everything I could to please her. I had OCD. So from 15 yrs onwards, I'd be cleaning the whole house everyday and looking after our animals as well as school and work. I thought that would make her happy. I'd buy her the best presents I could think of since I was very young. I'd back her in any conflict she had with anyone and everyone, including members of our own family. She was a single mother and highly intelligent. She came second in her overall degree at Uni. She was a young mum and worked and studied all the time. Even as an adult, when I earned more money, I'd buy at least $500 worth of presents and she'd end up not even opening them or putting them aside. I gave up eventually. But not before I just could no longer stand the pain. That's all I can say. My mother was emotionally very deprived by her parents. I remember her saying she was suicidal because of her mother growing up. I don't think she meant to do these things. She was carrying and still is carrying enormous pain and rage from what happened to her in her family. And now I understand why, because it trickled down to me.
I was always told I was wrong, flawed, weird or ill, but over the past 11 years I've realised I'm a normal Autistic with PTSD, GAD Depression & assorted others, likely including ADHD. I'm not a wrong neuro typical, I'm a normal traumatised late diagnosed Autistic. I doubt you can be late diagnosed without being traumatised along the way.
I had a similar experience with not even considering that something would be different with my brain, even if since as early as 2 years old I knew no one was like me unfortunately. I grew up in a very poor family with a long history of abuse, my mom was overprotective and I was quite isolated growing up, except for school. I did not have many contacts with my family, so I didn't have a support system and to this day I don't know most of my close family (cousins and aunts/uncles) and if I do, they don't like me except for very few individuals. So for the longest time I thought that the reason that I had so much difficulties with my peers at school, why I was bullied, why I didn't understand anything they had going on when they were all together, playing and making friends, was because of my upbringing. I was in a school for rich people's kids even if we were very poor because my mom thought I would have a better education than in a public school so she put all of her money on 2 things : our school, and cigarettes. So every year I would suffer. Until I was in high school, and I liked the people around me so I tried to better my surroundings by becoming invisible and present a friendly face. And how I did that was by passing as someone ordinary/normal. I tried to emulate the others' clothing without betraying too much of myself, I smiled when people would talk to me, I tried to reflect what they were talking about so we would have a semblance of a conversation. I had my first real friend in high school then, which I had for 10 years. My friend would often point out where she thought I was "weird" and I listened to her talking about her life and aspirations for hours. I was fascinated by how her life was different. This friendship ultimately ended because she did not respect the meager needs I expressed to her about how I wanted to be contacted (not by phone, you know why), and because when I tried to turn around our friendship based on me listening to her, and make it 50-50, she tried to push it back. So there I was, at the end of my studies, without a plan in life, still no money, and no friends. I experienced a few years of floating around, I had a team of friends for 1 year while we worked on projects for a charity, then nothing. I think I was clinically depressed for 2 years but in my family you don't go to a mental health professional, it's taboo. Then through pure will, I went to another country for another year, this is where I saw that I could control my life the way I wanted. I still had a lot of issues but I decided to stop going with the flow and what people would tell me to do and what I thought I wanted (aka find a stable decent paying job so I could support myself and my family). It took a few more years but I grew more and more vindictive. I wanted to control my own life. I reached this kind of stability 2 years ago that's why I took time to think about why I had so much difficulties in life, because for some years now I had known my issues didn't exist just because I grew up poor and isolated (even if it had a hand in who I became of course). 8 years ago I learned about autism (my country is in its infancy with mental health because we are plagued with psycho-analysis bullshit where autism is caused by fridge-moms…). I struggled for a few years with that term, because I did not understand what it meant for people like me who are low-needs and working, I had absolutely zero example out there. The community online, mainly on RUclips and in forums, helped me immensely deciphering if autism would apply to me. Until 2 years ago at the same time I reached a kind of stability in my life, when I finally admitted that yes, I am autistic, not defective, not damaged, not broken. It is coincidently the year when I decided to take my drawing skills more seriously and began learning painting as an autodidact. In February this year, a few days before my 35th birthday, I was diagnosed. Since then it has been like a weight has been lifted from my shoulders, I do not feel as much as a fraud as before. I permitted myself to be an active part of my local community even if for the moment I am just participating in their events. I displayed some of my paintings in the most recent event, I am the only one who has sold one since the event was created 3 years ago, even if I wasn't trying to sell anything. Tomorrow, I am seeing my psychiatrist to talk about the impact the diagnosis had on my life and how I want to proceed for the rest (asking for accomodations etc), and I have a painting session with fellow autistic artists which I am very much looking forward to. I feel more confident and assertive, and I think I will continue to do that. I am happy to have been diagnosed at last because it gives me permission in a way to be fully myself even if it's just in my head. I want to be a part of charities to fight ABA and the eugenistic intentions of my country concerning us. I want to fight people who say that autistic children and adults should be institutionalized and cannot be a positive influence in the world. Look at me! An autistic person who has built herself an independent life. It's not a perfect life and I still struggle very much with money, anxiety, and loneliness, but I make progress every year. I am not damaged, I am not defective, I am autistic. Hear me roar!
Much of your story resonates with me. I was able to find a career that played to my strengths and won many awards in it (journalist/creative writer) and got both my sister and brother diagnosed as autistic (when we were all adults) and realized my mother was autistic and began to suspect that I too might be autistic. Diagnosed this year at 69 years of age -- because oldies like me just get tired (exhausted and fed up) with masking and being there for everyone else but for myself. I'm tired of being an actress 90 percent of the time and the real me only on my "time off in private." I am still the sole carer of my only son, who has Huntington's Disease and we barely scrape by financially, but our home is a sanctuary, we have wonderful pets, and we have all of these resources on You Tube. And that's a lot more than a huge percentage of the world has. BTW, I NEVER thought there was something fundamentally wrong with me, and although I now realize Autism accounts for a lot of the massive stress/exhaustion/anxiety I felt all my life, I still feel sorry for neurotypical people who (mostly, there are stellar exceptions) seem incredibly mentally limited.
@ProudlyAutistic Karen, your family of origin story is almost exactly my story, oddly so. Grew up on 40 acres in a very rural area, only around family, narcissist father, had no idea it was not normal, had no idea I was autistic. Diagnosed by my counselor last year at 39. I will be *running* over to your RUclips page to learn more. Thank you for sharing your story!
My mantra was "every family has its issues." It wasn't until my late 20s that I started to realize that my family's issues weren't the typical family issues. I'm so sorry you went through that as well 💛
Resonates with me - all too well. Parents divorced when I was in early primary school. Seperated when I was than that maybe grade 2 or 3. Mum had a "nervous breakdown" and we stayed with some of her family and friends for a few months. Both parents violent - I suspect my autism came from my Dad who I now also suspect is on the spectrum. I assumed that I was how I am because of a all those experiences and trauma stemming from the separation, divore and the violence of my parents. I suspect that some of the issues my Mum had from her own childhood trauma caused her to needle my Dad and he didn't know how to handle it and lashed out. I'm not making excuses for him, but through the lens of knowing a bit more about autism now I think that is what happened. He got overwhelmed at times and his way of dealing with it was alcohol and violence. I assumed I was "poorly socialised" or something - never for a moment suspecting it was the other way around - that I was poor at socialising for other internal reasons. It was only as an early 50s person crying at the kitchen table literally asking myself "what planet are these people from?" when I worked out that it was acutally me that was different not the rest of the world!!!
Karen is awesome. I recently discovered what I am at 46. Narcissistic abuse has been s big part of my life as well. I have been so touched by her content. Karen, i look up to you
Hi Orion, just want to start by saying I really appreciate your videos, watching them has been one of the only spaces I feel validated. I myself am a early 30s father of 3 sons 4, 2 and newborn. My oldest two sons have been diagnosed with Autism which was something I really had no firm understanding of before their diagnosis. Upon further research into autism and the spectrum as a move as a parent trying to get ahead of the situation that had been developing around me, it occurred to my wife and I that I myself may actually be autistic. Now at first it was a bit to wrap my head around... How could I be an autistic person my entire life.. and not know it? So after some more research and finding your videos its becoming impossible to tell myself that I "just have quirks" rather than saying "ahh, I AM Autistic" So what to do next, I've come to the realization that I am more likely than not an autistic person, what do I do with that knowledge? Well I suppose I should seek an official diagnosis right? So I'm at the doctor (family doctor) with my wife, trying to explain to this "educated" person why I think I may be Autistic, and the doctor looks at me and says the most invalidating thing I've been told since reaching the conclusion that I am Autistic. He said "why do you want a diagnosis?" I kind of stared at him blankly sort of stunned that was what he was asking me.. so I stuttered a bit and said that the knowledge of the situation would give me peace of mind rather than living in doubt. So he says "well what are you looking to gain from a diagnosis?" At this point I was feeling very much like i wasnt being heard and kind of went into inner melt down mode. I dont exactly remember the rest of the conversation because my wife had stepped in and spoke to him for me because she could visibly see i was in extreme discomfort. He essentially told her diagnosis is beyond his capacity and I would need to go see a psychiatrist to be diagnosed but essentially that i shouldnt look for a diagnosis for a crutch to lean on. Like a reason why my behavior is acceptable, because i should be masking and pretending I come from "box town"(thats where the normal people who fit social norms come from) like the Neuro typical world. Orion, am I crazy for seeking a diagnosis? Is validation not essential to mental health? For Ntyps and Atyps alike? Please help!
That sounds like a very invalidating experience. I recommend speaking with someone who specializes in autism (not a family doctor/GP). And everyone is different. Some people want a formal diagnosis. Others are content with their suspicions. There's nothing wrong with getting confirmation if it would help you. Good luck!
@@ProudlyAutistic Thank you very much for responding!! I'm just having a hard time finding a doctor who specializes in ASD or even willing to make a diagnosis. Our hope was that the family doctor would help guide us in the right direction for seeking diagnosis but yeah he was very patronizing to try to open up to and I regret doing it. I assume I'm not alone in saying that doctor invalidation does not make talking to other doctors very easy. But I'm going to keep looking 😊 thank you again, and thank you for what you do too! The community needs people like you and Orion to advocate for us!
Ive given up on f*ing jobs. And I thought College was too dumb. But now I have no diploma cause I got too angry and left.I hate it. I hate it. Just give me a job I am competent for. I speak three languages, can paint realistically and abstract, am technical and pretty nice. Too good ? Are they jeaulous? I hate those people .
@dutchdagmar5072 IT'S LIKE YOU ARE IN MY HEAD!! I can't speak (or retain) foreign languages, but I intensely enjoy studying word histories and vocabulary.I carve wood, I sculpt clay, and paint geometric 3D images... But, primarily I'm a poet-song writer-musician (keyboard, vocals). I perform and do pretty well (after the fight or flight struggle the whole day of the gig!) I think because of being a weirdo musician, I was lucky. I was able to embrace my weirdness... NOT WHEN I WAS GROWING UP! Bullied by kids and teachers and coaches. I'm going to begin trying to get a diagnoses for Autism with ADHD sprinkles. My burnouts are happening closer and closer together along with what I used to call 'crying fits' that I realized are actually 'meltdowns'. My mother thinks I'll be ridiculed if I go through with getting treated. I have too much trouble with executive functions... I need help.
Thanks for doing this Interview Orion. I've found another great source of content and someone brought up in a similar family environment to me. Your input was outstanding. Thanks Bro
Late diagnosis here too, 52. I describe the experience being like living through the death of the life I was never supposed to have. I had been successful but by 38 I was really struggling. My marriage ended, I lost my job, my mental health went downhill fast and continues to seriously impact my day to day functioning. I have recently lost my home and with no way now to earn a decent salary I have to accept being homeless. Thriving seems like the unattainable goal and it’s still my goal. I have no idea what that looks like and how I will get there
Thank you for sharing your story. It's so darn similar to mine that it's a bit eery. I'm busy going through the process of acceptance after being diagnosed last year at 41 with ASD and ADHD, and it's incredibly frustrating, debilitating, and depressing. My value as a person has always been based on my dependability, my ability to always be there and available, and my work being high quality. I burned out. I burned out incredibly hard. And I haven't been able to recover. I'm currently struggling with my career because how do I explain the need for accommodations when I haven't needed them before and have always "exceeded expectations"? How do I explain how getting ready to go into an office is a challenge of getting out of bed, making myself presentable, styling my hair that hasn't been cut, finding clothes that don't feel terrible but fit the dress code, remembering my earbuds and meds, and preparing myself mentally for a room full of people who are loud and full of interruptions and assumptions? How do I explain the extra time I need to get everything together or explain why I'm late... again. How do I explain that Mondays are so hard to face that it takes me hours to get out of bed before my bladder finally forces the issue? And this, on top of the relationship trouble and coming to terms with new limits, when I was told continuously that I'm capable of anything if only I just tried harder? Like, freaking hell. I'm so tired. I'm so absolutely tired.
I didn't care about having friends at any age, so I just wanted to say that not all teenager autistic girls seek to fit in somewhere. I did, however, always have my brother, and he and his friends allowed me to follow them around. But my needs and emotions - I was definitely disconnected and probably still am. I'm still learning how to be an adult, and already have 8 grandchildren. 😅 I'm still listening to the video, but wanted to say that before I forgot.
I really resonate with the isolation growing up that Karen talked about. My mom isn't a narcissist but is a woman riddled with anxiety and fears, so she made me see the whole world as a threat, she would tell us stories of abuse and r4pe etc, and she was so afraid it would happen to her youngest daughters that she seldom allowed us outside even if my 2 older sisters did not live like that before. Combined with the fact that I had no friends growing up, that we saw only a very few family members (and even then most came to our home instead of us going to theirs), no car and no money to do activities, I seldom saw the outside of our apartment until I decided to both go to the public library every Saturday, and go to a boarding high school where I would go back home only on the week-ends.
A family friend told me 15yrs ago they thought I could be autistic, and for the last 10 years I've been trying to get tested... yesterday I finally did get tested and at age 43 I finally know why my entire life has been a struggle and broken relationships. I am autistic
I relate to this so much. I was diagnosed at 35 after I had already been married and had a child. I struggled my whole life with what I now recognize were hidden autistic traits. My motivation to try and make friends was to make my family happy and play the neurotypical part, not because I genuinely wanted that connection with others. After I was diagnosed, my husband and his family were very invalidating and treated me differently, and it’s part of the reason I’m getting divorced. I’m employed but I worry a lot about making enough to survive on my own once my marriage ends 😢
I am almost 60 and also have issues with trauma based frontal lobe reactions since birth too - been hell of a journey and still yet to be diagnosed but last year a person finally spotted it whom works with autism specialists and clients - trying to heal myself after giving up trying to exist in the rat race - hoping crafting a variety of choices of hobbies - i cant just do one at a time .......
I relate, quite a lot. My mum, who was quite narcissistic and bpd-y (my psychiatrist pointed this out) moved me around A ĹOT after leaving my Dad. I went to 13 different schools. I couldn't identify my ASD and ADHD for so long, as it was hidden under layers of trauma; complex, developmental trauma, being raised by a "hippy" single mother, always being the new kid, then lots more trauma, neglect, abuse and disadvantage,, as a teenager and young adult.
Awesome Job Karen. It was so great to hear your backstory. Orion, thank you for acknowledging the difference of social motivations between boys and girls... Like Karen, I noticed my differences once I was in middle school and desperately wanted friends. My son is currently in middle school and he doesn't seem to care as much as I did, and it was interesting to hear you say you didn't care _as much_ even when in highschool. Thank you for helping me kind of know what to possibly expect for him through you Orion because my experience as a girl was definitely different. Funny enough when you started sharing your story Karen, I almost wondered if there was a possibility your mom was on the spectrum because we DO get called narcissists sometimes... and then it was funny to hear Orion say that out loud. There is definitely a difference between narcissism and autistic traits. The reason autistic sometimes get confused with having narcissism is because we often live in our own little worlds, have to have things a certain way, can sometimes even be perfectionist, and always talk about our special interests. However those with autism usually are not controlling, are not dishonest, do not use other people to improve their own self-image, and are often times actually self-depreciating. So the two are not the same. Growing up with her I'm sure you knew the difference In a way that none of us will because we didn't grow up with her... But I have to admit I did think that for a minute since autism is hereditary. Either way I am so glad you brought that up Orion because that was literally swimming around in my head. I know CPTSD and Autism can also closely relate, so it can take someone really knowledgeable to twease those things apart. I had a pretty normal childhood myself (even though I don't remember a ton of it) so I didn't have anything else to explain why I was the way I was. I can imagine how though that would be too have to sift through other things to find the autism.
For me, narcissism is always about the person redirecting everything towards themselves and then their brains not being able to actually process or accept responsibility for their own behaviour and its results on others. Autistic fixation or engaging with special interests never intends to hurt or to harm; it is a way of regulating and calming. That you can spot a mile away.
My mom has some narcissistic tendencies but is actually a dysfunctional undiagnosed autistic. She was abused and abusive. But to her credit she was less abusive than my grandmother.
Well , just getting by . I had employment problems my whole life . Like I am too old now to start over again. It's definitely hard , I am stupid a slow learning. At this point. I am really thinking about giving up
Great guest and conversation! I feel I found a kindred spirit with Karen. Thanks for sharing your experiences with narcissistic abuse and workplace challenges in your path of discovery as a late diagnosed autistic person.
Karen, thank you so much for sharing your story. You are very brave and sweet and anyone would be blessed to have you as a friend. I have a son that struggles with similar issues and this helps me to understand more of what he's going through. My heart breaks for him and I'm willing to do whatever I can to help him. Thanks again!
THIS is very healing. Thank you!!! Don't read further if you are trauma sensitive. It invludes experiences that can be triggering. Now is your time to back out.... 1) ASD in relationships with an NPD... that is a good topic. Some of us have been there. 2) ASD incarcerated is a good topic too. Also... someone I know was neurodiverse and they beat him to death in isolation in a prison. He had clauserphobia for sure. Potentially undiagnosed Autism because so many in our family have it. The inmates were trying to warn us that the guards were going to kill him about a month ahead. When they beat him to death, they cremated him before they notified his next of kin (maybe to hide what they did?). They didn’t autopsy him because his internal organs were liquified, the coroner said. His mom sent a letter to his congressional rep and I don't know if anything ever came of it. Abuse of people with a diagnosis or disadvantage needs to be a topic, but special and apart. It will traumatize some of us who have or haven't been through whatever topic is being examined.
One of the unfortunate results of undiagnosed autism is being in defense mode 24/7..I wonder if Karen's mother wasn't projecting her own fears on Karen, as the result of having grown up undiagnosed autistic, herself? Pain isolates us, and tends to make our world's incredibly small. I grew up undiagnosed, and at 40+ my son was diagnosed,--resulting in my own. I look back and can clearly see repeated autistic shutdowns because I tried to force myself into societal expectations, with the help of my undiagnosed autistic parents doing their best-- but of course their own pain making them narcissistic and chaotic. I recognize I have been this way with my son at times and am doing all I can to make amends, help him understand, and hopefully break the cycle.
Thank you for sharing, and helping me understand more about not only late diagnosed Autism, but about making better decisions for myself in the future.
I was just diagnosed at 50. Now so much makes sense! I also grew up in a screamy household, (my dad was an undiagnosed autistic person with considerable childhood trauma living completely unsupported...) which was quite traumatic. (Other than an emotionally abusive childhood, Karen could be narrating my life journey. Karen, Sending you whatever form of love/hugs that you are comfortable with. It is truly amazing that you have found all of this out and are making so many changes to your life and the lives of many others with your challenge. You are amazing!) While we did not move around much, my parents were in a multicultural marriage living in a 3rd country, so I just thought the othering was because we were always foreign (no matter where i am, I am never "from here"). On the funny side, at least I find it funny, I always thought everyone else was the aliens and I was the person, hehe. I've also been advising people for years that a good way to handle leaving your house and deal with people, is to "put on an invisible suit". Totally not masking! Now, it seems so obvious! And it is both relieving and overwhelming.
Thank you for sharing. I grew up in a similar environment. An autistic mother and a narcissistic father. They would drink on the week-ends. It would always end with my mom having a melt down.
This conversation wasn't long enough! I could have listened to you both for hours. I'm subscribed to Karen's channel also, her insights on employment and the workplace are invaluable and sadly all too relatable 🙄 I'm really looking forward to the next collaboration whenever that happens! ☺️
I find it quite disturbing that Karen's therapist was about to diagnose her with borderline personality disorder, after careful consideration and several sessions, and only last minute changed her mind. Had the last session gone differently, Karen would have received a bpd diagnosis. How is this OK?
Only scceptable use of a diagnostic SHOULD be helping a patient SO providers SHOULD try first the less aggressive option, follow up attentively, and go back to diagnosis if there is no remarkable improvement.
Orion, you certainly depict the grieving process well for a late diagnosed adult! That is where I still am [different places, of course, but still in grief mixed with shock and anger/resentment].
I can't even tell you both how much your channels have helped me feel Okay. You've helped me more fully own my autism and my authentic self in general. So grateful to you and love your content
I share a very similar experience with her parent. I had one narcissistic and sometimes physically abusive parent and the other who was very controlling. So, as you can imagine those were chaotic clashes. I can specifically remember it being screamed in my face that "This is your fault!!" And just hearing stories and things, as an adult, I realize no child should year. I never grew up around any family besides my mom, father, and older brother most of my life until my younger brother came along. My father was very into baseball and a military background so it was always an issue that I had different interests. Everytime I didn't want to play baseball or got a C on a test, I lost all privledges to anything I enjoyed doing. I have done the "rocking" my whole life when excited, stressed, or trying to sleep. That bothered him heavily and constantly made fun of. I also wet the bed a little longer than I should have. Was grounded and told I was waking up and doing this to piss him off. If I liked something different, it was to piss him off. If I didn't want to play baseball, it was to piss him off. According to him and my mom, they knew what I was interested in more than I did. And anytime I liked something new it was seen as a rebellious effort. I walked around like I was on ice because of getting screamed at for walking on my heels or "stomping". I got yelled at for crossing my feet when talking and walking around and not making eye contact when getting screamed at. To this day, they fail to recognize it. I didn't know anyone autistic (I'm sure I did but didn't know) growing up. But I did have a father who I got to see make fun of my best friend who has a lot of autistic traits as well who got me into tech and video games and science, who was "gifted". He ran and shook his head and hands when running and we would be eating dinner and he'd start making fun of people. What I've realized that has helped me to cope when my dad's assholery and all that stuff is the fact that he has already told why he was the way he was without realizing. And to learn the reason I was mistreated my whole life is because he was weak and couldn't handle anything internally so he lashed out for his own life's regrets. I did not have a normal life. I didn't know what abuse was. I was threatened with juvy and military school for running to my mom's work through snow barefoot in shorts for being chased. I found out I am autistic 6 months ago. I had already been diagnosed with OCD, ADHD, GAD, MDD but they never really felt exactly like what I was feeling when I'd hear others talk about experiences. This channel and others helps more than you all can know. A lot of the time I feel disconnected from society and people in general. I relate to you both and this was nice to hear about similar experiences because a lot of other people share very different experiences that almost make you sad you didn't have that in ways. I have been in a burnout state for months and also have Systematic Lupus and run fevers daily of 100-103. That being said, within the last 2 months I got enrolled in summer classes starting in May to get an AS in Computer Science. This is my 3rd time trying but i will succeed this time because I know how to handle things better and have outlets like this channel to help as well and relate to. I never do things like this but very relatable experiences described. Thank you both. ❤
Wow, I was told as well as a child that if I didn't behave like the others I would be taken to an orphanage. Also I had to keep quiet about the alcoholism and being abused at home. So I stayed silent for half of my life. Thank you so much for this.
2:15 with you there sister... 3:15 and confusion 5:46 exactly My narc parent was the special education teacher and I was an occasional TA or her you would think it would have clicked but I thought I was just unpopular because I was poor.
I have known for 15 years ADHD wasn't my whole story. But I was completely shocked to learn I have high autistic traits. My (predominant autistic) traits were ignored until I finally saw someone who specializes in diagnosing adults.
So, at 65, a psychiatric nurse 35+ years, and it was the RUclips algorithm (and videos like yours) that finally helped me see. I cannot believe I have had to work this hard, just to figure it out. I haven't done "just fine". I never thought I would make 65 (And, thankfully in my case, no kids). I have been in autistic burnout for years and nearly died over it! We (as a mental health professional) should be getting educated about this!!!
Sad to hear that. Don't stop trying to get a formal diagnose and therapy support. Recent research has found even at late ages (meaning way later than yours) having an explanation after a lifetime of uncertainty is still really helpful and should be sought after all. My own story confirms that (44 only found I'm autistic 3 years ago) and it's a humongous difference compared to how we grew up without knowing at all. Your story about being related to healthcare jobs isn't unheard of, and yes I'm with you they should educate healthcare practitioners a lot more about this, after all they cater for really a lot of undiagnosed autistic people but they don't know either, and the ways they use aren't always the best suited for autistic patients.
So understand!
It is shocking to realize that certain 'problems' you may have had are not due to "not trying hard enough". Thank you for your comment, this 62 year old can relate!
At 67, My son told me that autism is a genetically inherited, and that I am autistic. This was unexpected, but great news. That was a year ago. My dad died 10 years ago and never knew he was autistic. Autistic realization is now just climbing out of the dark ages. Thanks to individuals like The Autistic Guy, and Proudly Autistic, I now have videos I can learn from and show my family and friends as to what it's like to have to live like I do.
You said the magic phrase, 'RUclips Algorithm'! It's fascinating, to me, how it just seems to know exactly what I need to watch right when I need it. I wonder if it's a bit like how divination formats like tarot or runes work to channel what we know but don't know we know. What is it called when you hear a word (for example) and then seem to hear it over and over again in a short period? Is that confirmation bias?
In it's most rudimentary form - I suppose the RUclips Algorithm bases it's suggestions on what we've already been looking at. It gives us options and, from them, we further define our path.
I’m in burnout, cozied up in pijamas listening to the rain. This is just perfect for right now. Thank you
This is me right now to in England 😊
@@mysobermission2509 greetings from Dallas Texas USA 🇺🇸 wishing you peaceful rest deep in your soul
Being autistic and speaking neurotypical is like speaking a second language. So true.
Autism gets less severe with age, stay strong there.
@@EddWilenchik Unless you insist on working in the worst possible environments, in which case, you lose ability to mask and cope. It's not a recommended way to go! Definitely work WITH your traits, instead of trying to beat into yourself to be what you can't be (I was raised ableist and didn't know any better!).
@@sharonaumani8827 I see and hear you. That comment hit me hard.
@@sharonaumani8827What a good comment. I’m realizing this as well, now in my life; and realizing this now at my age.
@@bytheway7656 Yeah, a little too late for myself, which seems typical 😕
i originally found the children of narcissists' community and thought i fit in there until i was diagnosed autistic and realized my N parent was probably undiagnosed autistic as well and it explained his shitty parenting (along with alcoholism). interesting how much overlap there is between the 2
I have always hated myself because what was happening in my head was beyond my understanding and my control. At 67, My son told me that autism is a genetically inherited, and that I am autistic. This was unexpected, but great news. That was a year ago. Knowing why we are like we are, made a profound difference in my life. At work, I am well known because of the positive aspects of my autism. But I had to try and hide the negative side because I didn't understand it and could not explain it.🤐 I've been working there 10 years. I'm still the same person, I just understand myself a lot better now. I'm working hard at finding ways to better live with myself. I am now openly autistic, and tell people what I like, don't like, and why. Me being happier and calmer is a win/win for everyone. I like when I'm by myself, am not moved or bothered, and given a difficult task to perfect. I work better, set records, and become almost supper human at what I do. By doing this, I have shown them it is to their advantage to treat me in the way that I want to be treated. I now work with my autism and do not have to try so hard to hide it. I am much happier now. Thank you for sharing your experiences with us. We appreciate you both.😁
It's easy to understand why it was difficult for Karen to discover that she is autistic since it was covered in layer upon layer of trauma. In my case, my autism was masked by what I thought was extreme social anxiety so it took me 39 years to finally find out the truth.
This here freshly diagnosed 46 years old is sending you many virtual hugs, Karen. Also, a channel sub.
I too come from a narcissistic parent. They've passed away thank God. I cut off contact with this narcissistic parent for 20+ years until near their death bed. I, along with my sister, finally got to say to them what we always wanted to say and they couldn't retort, retaliate or try and make it about them in their final month of life. We got the closure that many, many kids of narcissistic parents never get.
I too have to choose carefully who I 'come out' to in terms of both my sexuality and my neuro-diverse status. For government jobs in my home state of NSW, Australia, even though there is a field in which I can request accommodations can be made for my autism, I often don't fill it in because I know that they will pick someone who hasn't filled that field in against someone who has. I also am wary of community and wider staff ramifications if I do 'out' myself. It's actually easier to come out as gay than to come out as Autistic/neuro-diverse. Depending on the situation, both of them can lead to your literal death.
I am also Asian. I'm brown. So I'm a triple minority. Karen talks of the constant need to fight around employment; that's been my entire life. Workplaces love the fact that I'm "smart" and think differently to create awesome systems and procedures to get things done efficiently. Every single job I've ever had, everything I have now, I've had to fight for. I've had to push myself to my limit to hold my ground, to prove in a way that no neuro-typical person will ever have to do.
Because the alternative to masking, to doing all this, is to be hungry and to be homeless. I hope we can go from thriving to surviving too one day Orion.
@rogerram... I haven't read your whole comment yet, but enough to sense how miserably challenged your life has been (so sorry). I sure can relate to some of those job feelings you had, as well as feeling forced to mask for survival.
I listened to the entire video. Thank you for providing material for parcing. It is a lot that was said. Much for consideration. I appreciate your articulation of your views and stands.
I resonated with this conversation so hard it reduced me to tears. Thank you for such an articulate conversation as Karen put into words thoughts that I haven't been able to verbalise as a fellow Autistic woman, mother and professional. Best wishes to you both
This conversation is resonating so much for me that the tears are streaming down my face.
💛
Omg. I had the same response. I was in tears from watching this woman's history within her family. And only because i could relate so much. And i suddenly felt validated for the first time in my life. I was watching it late at night. I couldn't believe some of the exact similarities this woman experienced. Especially with one of her parents. I think my jaw literally dropped when she described how one of her parents called her a narcissist. Because that would happen over and over again to me too. I couldn't understand why anyone would call their child this name. I would try so hard to please my parent. And I'd work so hard around the house. And I'd buy my parent anything and everything I could think of to try and make her happy. And I'd come out fighting so hard for her anytime she was under attack from anyone else. I looked up to her so much. I'd cook things I knew she liked. I got good grades. I went to Uni. I did whatever she told me to. Hearing this woman's story struck me like lightning. I didn't know this happened to anyone else. And then there was the question in the video about wether or not her parent might have been Autistic too. Which I'd also thought about in regards to my own parent too. I could only ever think it was one of a few reasons in my situation. Either my parent was autistic or narcissistic themselves. Or i used to think she must be right and that I was narcissistic. But none of my best friends, partners or other relatives had ever said anything like that to me. They'd say the opposite and that I was very empathetic towards people and animals. And I've also known narcissistic females and males. I couldn't relate to them and I couldn't stand them or their company. I think my parent was in alot of pain from her own childhood. And I never realised her explosions of unpredictable rage were probably due to having no outlet for that pain. And I think my parent had an autistic mother. So my parent was carrying so much pain from having been so completely emotionally deprived. But still, my childhood hurt more than I can explain. And my adult relationship with her continued to hurt just as much and even more.
@@eviefittell2937 I sometimes get the impression some clinicians downplay the significance of acknowledgment and, instead, dismiss it with a judgment that that need comes from someone who is "personality disordered".
I can relate so much, too
I grew up not knowing I was Autistic. I was and really am still shy. I didn't fit in but I still had few friends. Some I "hung out" with during lunch, they would ignore me. I was bullied too by some friends. I was diagnosed as Autistic as an adult. Thank you both for sharing your stories! It helps me know I'm not alone.
This is a brilliant interview and so much of this resonates. Thanks for spreading the gospel
My mom, I'm pretty sure, is narcissistic. Feel overwhelmed because of how I feel. Might leave my job... Don't want to show up to people that don't appreciate me. Thank you guys so much for both of your podcasts. You're not alone.
You have no idea how much you have helped me...probably saved my life even and helped me connect to my son. We are both Autistic...and I bought your book. Thank you for all you do!
I’m grateful to hear that. Thanks.
Wow, I really understood what she meant about other issues like narcisism and moving around masking autism from the doctor's point of view.
I grew up in a cult like group, and moved country a few times as a child. My current psychologist attributes most of my issues to that, but I'm becoming increasingly confident that it's actually autism.
Your story is so like mine just add adoption, takes to a whole new level, I was a adoptee with narc parents and late diagnosed, Cptsd and narc relationships. Thank you for sharing, it inspires me to share my story. ❤
I knew 'something' was wrong in my family at 5 years old. As a gifted child, all I wanted was to be normal and have normal friends. I blossomed in high school, crashed in college, struggled at work and keeping jobs, and relationships have always been rocky so I quit dating 20 years ago. I self identified at 64 years old, and for the last few weeks have been watching my whole life unfold, this time with captions.
I relate so much.
Went no contact with my narcissistic family at 38, diagnosed with autism at 44 & need to get tested for Adhd.
I exhibit strong traits, having the answer neurodivergent has been a lifesaver, I have been a single parent the last 15 years to two children. No wonder I find everything so hard, these vids from this channel & others have been profoundly life changing.
I think I mixed up many autism/adhd symptoms as CPTSD & vice versa.
Suicidal ideation, excessive anxiety & burnout are like my best friends, the self shame & self gaslighting, I just have so many answers I didn't have before that explain so much wrong in my life & why I never seem to get anywhere or why i haven't felt fixed after so much healing work.
Thankyou so much for all you do ❤👌
Edited to add, I do think my narcissistic parent has similiar traits to autism however her abusive side, letting her boyfriends beat us, the cruel comments, the controlling behaviour, the constant digs, making you doubt yourself, the nitpicking & beginning to psychologically abuse my children as they developed their autonomy, the triggering of my youngest one because of her moods, & enjoying upsetting her, it was definitely narcissistic behaviour rather than someone neurodivergent.
The cruelty & and lack of empathy is the teller.
Mixing up autism/adhd and CPTSD: They overlap, they are not easy to parse out. In my experience the CPTSD has been the most debilitating of the three. I'm used to being an undiagnosed ADHD (I was only diagnosed with ADHD and Autism at 69) and have skills to manage it. Autism: I was a high functioning/high masking Autistic female (and therefore not diagnosed, cause girls can't be autistic). I helped both my brother and sister get diagnosed, and realized my mother was Autistic long before I realized that I, too, was Autistic. I was just higher functioning, and better at masking. Now that I'm not faking and facilitating I have been much more challenging toward people who try to run me over and that's a whole other problem (not that I shouldn't challenge them, but that it exhausts and depresses me that I have to do this). It was easier to morph into what "they" wanted to see and work with, because, frankly, I'm way smarter and capable than most of the neurotypical co-workers I've known. I can, and have, played to THEIR strengths for decades. But I'm tired of it.
Hope you can get a medical cannabis licence where you are, sympathies for your past.
@profilingmanipulation I'm so sorry you grew up in that environment as well. I went no contact 10 years ago. My parents haven't even met my son because it was conditioned on having an honest conversation with me and taking responsibility moving forward. Apparently that was too much to ask.
🤯🫂😱😥 do you live in my family? Did we grow up together??? Every word you said is what I'm dealing with except I'm watching my narcissistic parents abuse my brother's children. 😮
@@LadywatchingByrd They probably had it done to them too. Playing their kids off against each other, letting them blame and attack each other. Some families are sick like that, they can't let their sibling just be decent to each other, even their favoured child thinks they're special. but in reality they are just the weakest, most easily controlled. Trying to repeat the cycle over and over until they are the only ones who care don't dare meet each other to find out what exactly happened.
An amazing conversation thank you. I relate to so many things Karen said. From not having friends as a child. I tied myself in knots to make friends as a teenager. Masking to seem “normal” and fit in. Being diagnosed with BPD only getting my Autism diagnosis last year. This impacted my whole life.
45yo Male - Diagnosed AT 45. - The WORLD gave me C-PTSD, and now I'm supposed to learn to "Love Life"...
MOVED: Age 1-5: Moved 8-10 times. Age 5-15: Moved 7 times.
SCHOOLS: Two Elementary; THREE Middle Schools; Two High Schools.
Ok, still haven't finished the whole video, but just before the 36 minute mark Orion said something I REALLY have to voice my disagreement with. It was something like, "having an autistic diagnosis will KILL just about any opportunity in your life," then went into detail.
I'm a 42yo single father of 4, twice divorced from abusive women, suffering employment problems since the last one; and when I got the job offer of a lifetime about 7 months ago, it made me so anxious I FINALLY sat down to do some screeners online, and it has been the most freeing thing I've experienced in my adult life.
I FINALLY know exactly what is reasonable to expect of myself. I FINALLY know that I'm not broken, just a legit weirdo. How cool is that!?
So now I FINALLY have the opportunity to pursue healthy relationships, fulfilling employment. I have more opportunities NOW than I ever have before.
That's all. Just had to get that out. Otherwise, enjoying the conversation.
"Planet Autistica...!" That's awesome!
My home. 💕
Thank you both, you mean so much to me and have helped me a lot. CPTSD, narcissistic child abuse, that was all hard enough to come to terms with. But autism explains the rest of me and without the content like you guys make I never would've even considered getting assessed at 25. I had such stereotypical ideas of what autism was and I never would've figured out what it was that's been causing suffering all my life it weren't for content like yours. I (and my partner of 8 years who has to live with me! :) ) thank you guys so much for making me feel less alone and for one of the first times in my entire life, understood.
Thank you Karen. I have seen the shorts with you and was anxious about watching more because I felt it would cut too close for me. Its been validating and reassuring hearing your experiences. Its not easy to do it, its so painful and it was kind of you to speak to this so those who've had something similar can feel less alone. Thank you. And thanks to Orion for the interview. You did a great job & really nice to see how your questions and responses supported Karen's experience and contrasted with your own.
Very interesting discussion. I seldom hear people discuss anything about the particular problems faced by older, undiagnosed autistics who are also caregivers for severely autistic children. There is no way that I would ever seek an official diagnosis. The people I have to deal with to advocate for my son's needs already dislike me, accuse me of having a "bad attitude" and treat me as if I am stupid and know nothing about my own son's very specialized diagnosis/profile. If I had a formal diagnosis of being on the spectrum that would just get 100 times worse. I find your videos very useful because they help me try to fortify my mask (which unfortunately is failing rapidly due to aging and accumulated trauma) so thank you very much. I hope that in future maybe you could try to speak to the particular difficulties faced by parents such as myself, because it's extremely soul-destroying and no one in neurotypical society understands or cares.
I live in a country where people don't know much about autism, they believe that you're autistic only if you were diagnosed when you were a little child (but for some reason as soon as you're 18, you are diagnosed with a light form of schizophrenia. hence, you can't get diagnosed if you're an adult).
yesterday I told my narcissistic mother that I suspect myself of being autistic. I didn't want it to happen spontaneously, I prepared a whole presentation about all the information on ASD, on my life, my feelings, my suspicions of being autistic which I explored for almost half a year now... but we failed to have a conversation so I couldn't tell them. and yesterday I had a meltdown, my mother appeared and started saying something like "stop crying; enough; is that because of that stupid trash? (that's the topic we had previously after which my father told me many awful things) come on, that's stupid" and touching me, I tried to tell her to give me a minute (if you're an autistic person you know it cannot be stopped immediately), so I had to tell her about my suspicions once I managed to calm a little and I was able to speak. and she laughed in my face and said that I'M NOT AUTISTIC BECAUSE I DIDN'T SHOW ANY TRAITS IN CHILDHOOD (funny enough she likes to proudly tell other people that I was a very quiet child, I didn't start speaking or walking for long time, she didn't have troubles with me at all, which are QUITE THE TRAITS of an autistic person). she also yelled at me, she started saying bad words, cursed, she became furious, broke the door in my room, said that I must be in a mental hospital for my words, I was so afraid that she would beat me or hurt me in some other way... and she was drunk. I understand, that I should've kept my mouth shut. we had pretty trusting relationship so I thought she would understand me and support me...
a lot happened that night. I messaged my brother and begged him to calm our mother (she always listens to him, she loves him). she then came back, made me hug her against my will (I did it so she won't get angry again and hurt me), I had to suffocate from cigarette smell (I hate it so much, I literally can't breathe it, it's like inhaling fire; my parents know I can't stand it yet they never cared), I had to nod when she said "we will just forget that nonsense (she meant my words about asd) and stop arguing, right?". I was very scared for my life, couldn't sleep... this was the most atrocious birthday of mine
I don't have the resources to either leave this country, or this house unfortunately. I don't have friends, no one who would save me, support me, help me. I don't want to die but I don't want to live like this either... I am really glad for the people who live in countries where you can get diagnosed as an adult if you suspect ASD, even if it's difficult or expensive.
thank you for reading this if you did, I needed to share this somewhere. please, be happy and stay safe
I am so sorry. I wish I was in a position to be able to help. It is an awful way to live.
Don't give up and find a community you can resonate with and possibly learn of other resources. ,🙌🙏💓
I read your sad story and I understand you must feel terrible. Feeling unsafe with your own parent in your own house is maddening. I know....
Hold on and allow yourself to dream of a different life. It always starts with a deeply felt wish of what it is that you DO want.
Perhaps a far-fetched option that I am about to suggest to you. 1 life. I wish you good trauma treatment and freedom.
Maybe you can try to apply for asylum?
You could just copy your reaction overhere and it is a heart felt motivation letter. Maybe even stronger if you can put into words what it is you DO want.
(For me that is safety, quietness, financial stability, healthy habits that suit my abilities to execute them i a way that does not cause me too much stress)
Belgium, apparently, has excellent autism specialist, so my Dutch therapist told me.
Took me 5 years of therapy to overcome this. My wellbeing improved a great deal after not feeling the need anymore to please out of submission .
I still enjoy doing nice things for other people but when they continue to behave badly towards me, I choose a nicer person to spend my time with.
Always willing to listen to wishes that are spoken in a kind and non-demanding way.
That was my dark side of the moon. Often I used to be kind, but I could also behave demandingly, to my own horror.
Once my awareness of this unkind behavior started to grow, I more and more could consciencely choose healthier behavior.
Wish you tons of (self) love. They cannot.
If they could they would, you know, sad as it is.
It took me years to feel love for myself. I used to be my worst critic.
That way I could be reaonably sure that my best wóuld be good enough (please, please).
I was diagnosed with tourettes syndrome and ADD as a child, but now the diagnosis criteria is different and if I was the same child today it would be called autism now.
Karen has been through a lot. Very inspiring.
I feel her so much. When I was diagnosed the first feeling (after liberation because of understanding) was anger against my narcissistic mother and my psycopathic father because they took advantage of my condition to cause even more damage and suffering. Grieve for the idea I had of me and what my future could look like came later.
Narcissistic parents seems to be a theme in some of the stories here. I never expected this. I can't ever explain how grateful I am for seeing this video. I always thought I was imagining the abuse. And I was always told that I was the abuser. And I was called alot of names no matter how hard I tried to support the emotions of my single parent. And no matter how hard I worked to try and make my single parent feel loved and happy. I just wanted their love, care, empathy and approval. And there was no other healthy or normal close adult around to tell me otherwise. I originally couldn't comment when I first saw this video because it was so close to home. And because I went into shock. And because tears were streaming down my face when I realised I really was gaslighted by the very person I needed, idolised, loved and unconditionally trusted the most over a lifetime.... before I finally had to withdraw from constant fear, extreme anxiety, continued repetitive trauma, repeated pain, confusion, doubting the reality of it all and cognitive dissonance etc.
My younger years are almost identical to hers. She he only difference is my mom was so overwhelmed with me that she fought for me to be diagnosed ADHD. I learned way too late that it was just a means to try and control me so they were happier. I’m 35 now. And it hurts realizing my “prime years” could’ve been better
I was diagnosed at 57. Just about a year and a half ago. I didn't have a particularly traumatic childhood. My father was a minister and we moved frequently enough and I had to learn to act like a normal kid at a very young age so that I wouldn't make my father look bad to the parishioners. Still I was labeled as extremely shy throughout my youth. I spent decades seeing therapists, psychologists, and psychiatrists. I was in and out of hospitals. The first inkling that I had that there was something else going on was when a psychiatrist at a hospital said I had a schizoid personality disorder. It was about 5 years ago when my wife said she thought I was autistic. I sought out a diagnosis when a family friend who has an autistic husband and children told my wife I was clearly autistic.
Growing up in a screwed up environment absolutely camouflaged my autism. Part of that was moving schools every three months. I totally blamed my inability to make connections on that. At least, until I saw it in my own child, who wasn’t moved around a lot.
I’ve been struggling to remember my childhood, examining myself with new eyes, for the past 8 months and it is difficult. It was decades ago. Listening to another describe theirs really helped. Thanks to both of you for putting this video together.
Thank you so much Orion and Karen. This is a great pod cast!! So much to think about in this discussion, as a late diagnosed woman. These discussions are very helpful :) (wanted to put emoji but they are not working...)
This is a very similar story to my own. I developed FND after my divorce. I'd previously been diagnosed with depression, anxiety, Borderline Personality disorder. But every time I spoke to a therapist they said I sound like I'm calm and rational and have a huge amount of self insight. I couldn't understand why therapists would think I'm fine when I could be overwhelmed and thinking about taking my own life on the same day. Finding out that I'm autistic has joined the dots between the "mystery" of my physical health and mental health and my whole life suddenly makes sense. I would love if Proudly Autistic made a video about her experience with FND. When I was diagnosed, the idea that it could be linked with neurodivergence was not raised, and I wonder how many others with FND are also undiagnosed.
A video about FNDs is on my list. Hopefully in the next month or two.
I could feel her pain. Why are we like this😢
The neurotypicals needs to be "fixed" with therapy and more so that all can be who they are without having these issues. These issues are less about the brain of an neurodiverse person and more about attitudes and knowledge/understanding within the brains of neurotypicals.
@@mikaeljacobsson1437 nope...obviously we are wired differently.
Wow! 😮 This is just blowing me away. I can't stop crying and rethinking my life...
I can't thank both of you enough. It feels like I just found the other half of a puzzle that's been missing for 51 years. I've been so SO down and depressed and stuck. So grateful to have found these channels.
I saw one of this woman's videos before. I only saw one. I didn't realise this was her back story until now. I want to cry. I can't say anymore. My mother called me a narcissist too. I was just a young girl. I did everything I could to please her. I had OCD. So from 15 yrs onwards, I'd be cleaning the whole house everyday and looking after our animals as well as school and work. I thought that would make her happy. I'd buy her the best presents I could think of since I was very young. I'd back her in any conflict she had with anyone and everyone, including members of our own family. She was a single mother and highly intelligent. She came second in her overall degree at Uni. She was a young mum and worked and studied all the time. Even as an adult, when I earned more money, I'd buy at least $500 worth of presents and she'd end up not even opening them or putting them aside. I gave up eventually. But not before I just could no longer stand the pain. That's all I can say. My mother was emotionally very deprived by her parents. I remember her saying she was suicidal because of her mother growing up. I don't think she meant to do these things. She was carrying and still is carrying enormous pain and rage from what happened to her in her family. And now I understand why, because it trickled down to me.
🫂🫂🫂🫂😘 same dinghy.
Sharing is caring, thank you ❤
My advice as a 61 y.o. woman, be careful who you are entangled with
I really enjoyed Karen, shes a lovely person. im with her, im embracing this ride. Thank you both very much!
I was always told I was wrong, flawed, weird or ill, but over the past 11 years I've realised I'm a normal Autistic with PTSD, GAD Depression & assorted others, likely including ADHD. I'm not a wrong neuro typical, I'm a normal traumatised late diagnosed Autistic. I doubt you can be late diagnosed without being traumatised along the way.
Great conversation! I can relate to what Karen talks about and I think she's an amazing person.
I had a similar experience with not even considering that something would be different with my brain, even if since as early as 2 years old I knew no one was like me unfortunately. I grew up in a very poor family with a long history of abuse, my mom was overprotective and I was quite isolated growing up, except for school. I did not have many contacts with my family, so I didn't have a support system and to this day I don't know most of my close family (cousins and aunts/uncles) and if I do, they don't like me except for very few individuals. So for the longest time I thought that the reason that I had so much difficulties with my peers at school, why I was bullied, why I didn't understand anything they had going on when they were all together, playing and making friends, was because of my upbringing. I was in a school for rich people's kids even if we were very poor because my mom thought I would have a better education than in a public school so she put all of her money on 2 things : our school, and cigarettes.
So every year I would suffer. Until I was in high school, and I liked the people around me so I tried to better my surroundings by becoming invisible and present a friendly face. And how I did that was by passing as someone ordinary/normal. I tried to emulate the others' clothing without betraying too much of myself, I smiled when people would talk to me, I tried to reflect what they were talking about so we would have a semblance of a conversation. I had my first real friend in high school then, which I had for 10 years. My friend would often point out where she thought I was "weird" and I listened to her talking about her life and aspirations for hours. I was fascinated by how her life was different. This friendship ultimately ended because she did not respect the meager needs I expressed to her about how I wanted to be contacted (not by phone, you know why), and because when I tried to turn around our friendship based on me listening to her, and make it 50-50, she tried to push it back. So there I was, at the end of my studies, without a plan in life, still no money, and no friends. I experienced a few years of floating around, I had a team of friends for 1 year while we worked on projects for a charity, then nothing. I think I was clinically depressed for 2 years but in my family you don't go to a mental health professional, it's taboo. Then through pure will, I went to another country for another year, this is where I saw that I could control my life the way I wanted. I still had a lot of issues but I decided to stop going with the flow and what people would tell me to do and what I thought I wanted (aka find a stable decent paying job so I could support myself and my family). It took a few more years but I grew more and more vindictive. I wanted to control my own life. I reached this kind of stability 2 years ago that's why I took time to think about why I had so much difficulties in life, because for some years now I had known my issues didn't exist just because I grew up poor and isolated (even if it had a hand in who I became of course). 8 years ago I learned about autism (my country is in its infancy with mental health because we are plagued with psycho-analysis bullshit where autism is caused by fridge-moms…). I struggled for a few years with that term, because I did not understand what it meant for people like me who are low-needs and working, I had absolutely zero example out there. The community online, mainly on RUclips and in forums, helped me immensely deciphering if autism would apply to me. Until 2 years ago at the same time I reached a kind of stability in my life, when I finally admitted that yes, I am autistic, not defective, not damaged, not broken. It is coincidently the year when I decided to take my drawing skills more seriously and began learning painting as an autodidact. In February this year, a few days before my 35th birthday, I was diagnosed. Since then it has been like a weight has been lifted from my shoulders, I do not feel as much as a fraud as before. I permitted myself to be an active part of my local community even if for the moment I am just participating in their events. I displayed some of my paintings in the most recent event, I am the only one who has sold one since the event was created 3 years ago, even if I wasn't trying to sell anything. Tomorrow, I am seeing my psychiatrist to talk about the impact the diagnosis had on my life and how I want to proceed for the rest (asking for accomodations etc), and I have a painting session with fellow autistic artists which I am very much looking forward to. I feel more confident and assertive, and I think I will continue to do that. I am happy to have been diagnosed at last because it gives me permission in a way to be fully myself even if it's just in my head. I want to be a part of charities to fight ABA and the eugenistic intentions of my country concerning us. I want to fight people who say that autistic children and adults should be institutionalized and cannot be a positive influence in the world. Look at me! An autistic person who has built herself an independent life. It's not a perfect life and I still struggle very much with money, anxiety, and loneliness, but I make progress every year. I am not damaged, I am not defective, I am autistic. Hear me roar!
Much of your story resonates with me. I was able to find a career that played to my strengths and won many awards in it (journalist/creative writer) and got both my sister and brother diagnosed as autistic (when we were all adults) and realized my mother was autistic and began to suspect that I too might be autistic. Diagnosed this year at 69 years of age -- because oldies like me just get tired (exhausted and fed up) with masking and being there for everyone else but for myself. I'm tired of being an actress 90 percent of the time and the real me only on my "time off in private." I am still the sole carer of my only son, who has Huntington's Disease and we barely scrape by financially, but our home is a sanctuary, we have wonderful pets, and we have all of these resources on You Tube. And that's a lot more than a huge percentage of the world has. BTW, I NEVER thought there was something fundamentally wrong with me, and although I now realize Autism accounts for a lot of the massive stress/exhaustion/anxiety I felt all my life, I still feel sorry for neurotypical people who (mostly, there are stellar exceptions) seem incredibly mentally limited.
@ProudlyAutistic Karen, your family of origin story is almost exactly my story, oddly so. Grew up on 40 acres in a very rural area, only around family, narcissist father, had no idea it was not normal, had no idea I was autistic. Diagnosed by my counselor last year at 39.
I will be *running* over to your RUclips page to learn more. Thank you for sharing your story!
My mantra was "every family has its issues." It wasn't until my late 20s that I started to realize that my family's issues weren't the typical family issues. I'm so sorry you went through that as well 💛
My father was a narcissist imho. So I got bullied everywhere
Resonates with me - all too well.
Parents divorced when I was in early primary school. Seperated when I was than that maybe grade 2 or 3. Mum had a "nervous breakdown" and we stayed with some of her family and friends for a few months.
Both parents violent - I suspect my autism came from my Dad who I now also suspect is on the spectrum. I assumed that I was how I am because of a all those experiences and trauma stemming from the separation, divore and the violence of my parents.
I suspect that some of the issues my Mum had from her own childhood trauma caused her to needle my Dad and he didn't know how to handle it and lashed out. I'm not making excuses for him, but through the lens of knowing a bit more about autism now I think that is what happened. He got overwhelmed at times and his way of dealing with it was alcohol and violence.
I assumed I was "poorly socialised" or something - never for a moment suspecting it was the other way around - that I was poor at socialising for other internal reasons. It was only as an early 50s person crying at the kitchen table literally asking myself "what planet are these people from?" when I worked out that it was acutally me that was different not the rest of the world!!!
Karen is awesome. I recently discovered what I am at 46. Narcissistic abuse has been s big part of my life as well. I have been so touched by her content. Karen, i look up to you
I resonate soooo much with her back story. Becoming an emotional monitor was another way of masking and made it harder for people to see the autism.
Hi Orion, just want to start by saying I really appreciate your videos, watching them has been one of the only spaces I feel validated.
I myself am a early 30s father of 3 sons 4, 2 and newborn. My oldest two sons have been diagnosed with Autism which was something I really had no firm understanding of before their diagnosis.
Upon further research into autism and the spectrum as a move as a parent trying to get ahead of the situation that had been developing around me, it occurred to my wife and I that I myself may actually be autistic.
Now at first it was a bit to wrap my head around... How could I be an autistic person my entire life.. and not know it? So after some more research and finding your videos its becoming impossible to tell myself that I "just have quirks" rather than saying "ahh, I AM Autistic"
So what to do next, I've come to the realization that I am more likely than not an autistic person, what do I do with that knowledge? Well I suppose I should seek an official diagnosis right?
So I'm at the doctor (family doctor) with my wife, trying to explain to this "educated" person why I think I may be Autistic, and the doctor looks at me and says the most invalidating thing I've been told since reaching the conclusion that I am Autistic.
He said "why do you want a diagnosis?"
I kind of stared at him blankly sort of stunned that was what he was asking me.. so I stuttered a bit and said that the knowledge of the situation would give me peace of mind rather than living in doubt.
So he says "well what are you looking to gain from a diagnosis?"
At this point I was feeling very much like i wasnt being heard and kind of went into inner melt down mode. I dont exactly remember the rest of the conversation because my wife had stepped in and spoke to him for me because she could visibly see i was in extreme discomfort.
He essentially told her diagnosis is beyond his capacity and I would need to go see a psychiatrist to be diagnosed but essentially that i shouldnt look for a diagnosis for a crutch to lean on. Like a reason why my behavior is acceptable, because i should be masking and pretending I come from "box town"(thats where the normal people who fit social norms come from) like the Neuro typical world.
Orion, am I crazy for seeking a diagnosis? Is validation not essential to mental health? For Ntyps and Atyps alike? Please help!
That sounds like a very invalidating experience. I recommend speaking with someone who specializes in autism (not a family doctor/GP). And everyone is different. Some people want a formal diagnosis. Others are content with their suspicions. There's nothing wrong with getting confirmation if it would help you. Good luck!
@@ProudlyAutistic Thank you very much for responding!! I'm just having a hard time finding a doctor who specializes in ASD or even willing to make a diagnosis. Our hope was that the family doctor would help guide us in the right direction for seeking diagnosis but yeah he was very patronizing to try to open up to and I regret doing it. I assume I'm not alone in saying that doctor invalidation does not make talking to other doctors very easy. But I'm going to keep looking 😊 thank you again, and thank you for what you do too! The community needs people like you and Orion to advocate for us!
watching from Fl, its 4:22am. Goodmorning. watching now.
Love the purrrple aura. It's my calming colour💜💜💜😊
Purple is the highest color, the color of protection...
My living room has lots of LED lights mainly purple or rainbow colours. It's my happy space. It's calming.
I'm doing this today, thankyou!
Ive given up on f*ing jobs. And I thought College was too dumb. But now I have no diploma cause I got too angry and left.I hate it. I hate it. Just give me a job I am competent for. I speak three languages, can paint realistically and abstract, am technical and pretty nice. Too good ? Are they jeaulous? I hate those people .
@dutchdagmar5072 IT'S LIKE YOU ARE IN MY HEAD!! I can't speak (or retain) foreign languages, but I intensely enjoy studying word histories and vocabulary.I carve wood, I sculpt clay, and paint geometric 3D images... But, primarily I'm a poet-song writer-musician (keyboard, vocals). I perform and do pretty well (after the fight or flight struggle the whole day of the gig!) I think because of being a weirdo musician, I was lucky. I was able to embrace my weirdness... NOT WHEN I WAS GROWING UP! Bullied by kids and teachers and coaches. I'm going to begin trying to get a diagnoses for Autism with ADHD sprinkles. My burnouts are happening closer and closer together along with what I used to call 'crying fits' that I realized are actually 'meltdowns'. My mother thinks I'll be ridiculed if I go through with getting treated. I have too much trouble with executive functions... I need help.
Speaking any foreign seems pretty incredible to me! What about being an interpreter?
Throw an art show!
@@selecttravelvacations7472 good idea. have to get physically better 1 though ty
BRILLIANT!!!! THIS IS BRILLIANT!!!!! Standing ovation for you both! And Karen, you’re fecking strong!!!!!!!!!! Oh my God, you inspired me🥹🥹🥹
Thanks for doing this Interview Orion. I've found another great source of content and someone brought up in a similar family environment to me.
Your input was outstanding. Thanks Bro
Late diagnosis here too, 52.
I describe the experience being like living through the death of the life I was never supposed to have.
I had been successful but by 38 I was really struggling. My marriage ended, I lost my job, my mental health went downhill fast and continues to seriously impact my day to day functioning. I have recently lost my home and with no way now to earn a decent salary I have to accept being homeless.
Thriving seems like the unattainable goal and it’s still my goal. I have no idea what that looks like and how I will get there
I'm so, so sorry. I was recently on the verge of homelessness myself. It's devastating and so unfair. Best wishes for brighter days ahead 💛
Thank you for sharing your story. It's so darn similar to mine that it's a bit eery. I'm busy going through the process of acceptance after being diagnosed last year at 41 with ASD and ADHD, and it's incredibly frustrating, debilitating, and depressing. My value as a person has always been based on my dependability, my ability to always be there and available, and my work being high quality. I burned out. I burned out incredibly hard. And I haven't been able to recover. I'm currently struggling with my career because how do I explain the need for accommodations when I haven't needed them before and have always "exceeded expectations"? How do I explain how getting ready to go into an office is a challenge of getting out of bed, making myself presentable, styling my hair that hasn't been cut, finding clothes that don't feel terrible but fit the dress code, remembering my earbuds and meds, and preparing myself mentally for a room full of people who are loud and full of interruptions and assumptions? How do I explain the extra time I need to get everything together or explain why I'm late... again. How do I explain that Mondays are so hard to face that it takes me hours to get out of bed before my bladder finally forces the issue? And this, on top of the relationship trouble and coming to terms with new limits, when I was told continuously that I'm capable of anything if only I just tried harder? Like, freaking hell. I'm so tired. I'm so absolutely tired.
I didn't care about having friends at any age, so I just wanted to say that not all teenager autistic girls seek to fit in somewhere.
I did, however, always have my brother, and he and his friends allowed me to follow them around.
But my needs and emotions - I was definitely disconnected and probably still am. I'm still learning how to be an adult, and already have 8 grandchildren. 😅
I'm still listening to the video, but wanted to say that before I forgot.
When myself & my daughters speak up I'm sure the internet will break ❤
Sending a huge virtual hug & so much love from Amanda in Blackpool England UK
I really resonate with the isolation growing up that Karen talked about. My mom isn't a narcissist but is a woman riddled with anxiety and fears, so she made me see the whole world as a threat, she would tell us stories of abuse and r4pe etc, and she was so afraid it would happen to her youngest daughters that she seldom allowed us outside even if my 2 older sisters did not live like that before. Combined with the fact that I had no friends growing up, that we saw only a very few family members (and even then most came to our home instead of us going to theirs), no car and no money to do activities, I seldom saw the outside of our apartment until I decided to both go to the public library every Saturday, and go to a boarding high school where I would go back home only on the week-ends.
I heard every word. What an excellent interview! Everyone (most especially HR) should watch this one.
She’s incredible! I like all of the other girls that you team up with up with like Jenn and the others but this one is at a higher level!
Diagnosed at 40? Me too. Although mine was self diagnosed . Totally relate to the parents thing. Definitely worth a watch.
A family friend told me 15yrs ago they thought I could be autistic, and for the last 10 years I've been trying to get tested... yesterday I finally did get tested and at age 43 I finally know why my entire life has been a struggle and broken relationships. I am autistic
I relate to this so much. I was diagnosed at 35 after I had already been married and had a child. I struggled my whole life with what I now recognize were hidden autistic traits. My motivation to try and make friends was to make my family happy and play the neurotypical part, not because I genuinely wanted that connection with others. After I was diagnosed, my husband and his family were very invalidating and treated me differently, and it’s part of the reason I’m getting divorced. I’m employed but I worry a lot about making enough to survive on my own once my marriage ends 😢
I'm sorry you're going through a difficult time right now. Best wishes for brighter days ahead 💛
I am almost 60 and also have issues with trauma based frontal lobe reactions since birth too - been hell of a journey and still yet to be diagnosed but last year a person finally spotted it whom works with autism specialists and clients - trying to heal myself after giving up trying to exist in the rat race - hoping crafting a variety of choices of hobbies - i cant just do one at a time .......
I relate, quite a lot. My mum, who was quite narcissistic and bpd-y (my psychiatrist pointed this out) moved me around A ĹOT after leaving my Dad. I went to 13 different schools. I couldn't identify my ASD and ADHD for so long, as it was hidden under layers of trauma; complex, developmental trauma, being raised by a "hippy" single mother, always being the new kid, then lots more trauma, neglect, abuse and disadvantage,, as a teenager and young adult.
Karen's analogy about the second language just blew my mind!!! 😮
Awesome Job Karen. It was so great to hear your backstory.
Orion, thank you for acknowledging the difference of social motivations between boys and girls... Like Karen, I noticed my differences once I was in middle school and desperately wanted friends. My son is currently in middle school and he doesn't seem to care as much as I did, and it was interesting to hear you say you didn't care _as much_ even when in highschool. Thank you for helping me kind of know what to possibly expect for him through you Orion because my experience as a girl was definitely different.
Funny enough when you started sharing your story Karen, I almost wondered if there was a possibility your mom was on the spectrum because we DO get called narcissists sometimes... and then it was funny to hear Orion say that out loud.
There is definitely a difference between narcissism and autistic traits. The reason autistic sometimes get confused with having narcissism is because we often live in our own little worlds, have to have things a certain way, can sometimes even be perfectionist, and always talk about our special interests. However those with autism usually are not controlling, are not dishonest, do not use other people to improve their own self-image, and are often times actually self-depreciating. So the two are not the same. Growing up with her I'm sure you knew the difference In a way that none of us will because we didn't grow up with her... But I have to admit I did think that for a minute since autism is hereditary. Either way I am so glad you brought that up Orion because that was literally swimming around in my head.
I know CPTSD and Autism can also closely relate, so it can take someone really knowledgeable to twease those things apart. I had a pretty normal childhood myself (even though I don't remember a ton of it) so I didn't have anything else to explain why I was the way I was. I can imagine how though that would be too have to sift through other things to find the autism.
For me, narcissism is always about the person redirecting everything towards themselves and then their brains not being able to actually process or accept responsibility for their own behaviour and its results on others. Autistic fixation or engaging with special interests never intends to hurt or to harm; it is a way of regulating and calming. That you can spot a mile away.
My mom has some narcissistic tendencies but is actually a dysfunctional undiagnosed autistic. She was abused and abusive. But to her credit she was less abusive than my grandmother.
Have googled helpful info on Autistic Scapegoat children. Bless you, Karen.
Well , just getting by . I had employment problems my whole life .
Like I am too old now to start over again.
It's definitely hard , I am stupid a slow learning. At this point.
I am really thinking about giving up
Please don't. 🫂 Something out there is just right for you. ❤
Wow, so incredibly relatable ❤❤ it really touched me deeply, thank you
Great guest and conversation! I feel I found a kindred spirit with Karen. Thanks for sharing your experiences with narcissistic abuse and workplace challenges in your path of discovery as a late diagnosed autistic person.
💛
Karen, thank you so much for sharing your story. You are very brave and sweet and anyone would be blessed to have you as a friend. I have a son that struggles with similar issues and this helps me to understand more of what he's going through. My heart breaks for him and I'm willing to do whatever I can to help him. Thanks again!
💛
Thank you Orion and Karen. I appreciate that you both addressed the employment challenges.
Awesome guest and interview! Thank you.
Karen, your poor girl.....go you , for working this all out and getting your life sorted .
THIS is very healing. Thank you!!!
Don't read further if you are trauma sensitive. It invludes experiences that can be triggering. Now is your time to back out....
1) ASD in relationships with an NPD... that is a good topic. Some of us have been there.
2) ASD incarcerated is a good topic too.
Also... someone I know was neurodiverse and they beat him to death in isolation in a prison. He had clauserphobia for sure. Potentially undiagnosed Autism because so many in our family have it. The inmates were trying to warn us that the guards were going to kill him about a month ahead. When they beat him to death, they cremated him before they notified his next of kin (maybe to hide what they did?). They didn’t autopsy him because his internal organs were liquified, the coroner said. His mom sent a letter to his congressional rep and I don't know if anything ever came of it.
Abuse of people with a diagnosis or disadvantage needs to be a topic, but special and apart. It will traumatize some of us who have or haven't been through whatever topic is being examined.
One of the unfortunate results of undiagnosed autism is being in defense mode 24/7..I wonder if Karen's mother wasn't projecting her own fears on Karen, as the result of having grown up undiagnosed autistic, herself? Pain isolates us, and tends to make our world's incredibly small. I grew up undiagnosed, and at 40+ my son was diagnosed,--resulting in my own. I look back and can clearly see repeated autistic shutdowns because I tried to force myself into societal expectations, with the help of my undiagnosed autistic parents doing their best-- but of course their own pain making them narcissistic and chaotic. I recognize I have been this way with my son at times and am doing all I can to make amends, help him understand, and hopefully break the cycle.
So much of Karen's story is similar to mine. Thank you for sharing!
Thank you for sharing, and helping me understand more about not only late diagnosed Autism, but about making better decisions for myself in the future.
I relate to Karen so much, and empathise. I was also brought up by a narcissistic parent.❤ I got blamed for everything.
The friendship part resonated som much Karen. Thank you for shearing!🙂
I was just diagnosed at 50. Now so much makes sense! I also grew up in a screamy household, (my dad was an undiagnosed autistic person with considerable childhood trauma living completely unsupported...) which was quite traumatic. (Other than an emotionally abusive childhood, Karen could be narrating my life journey. Karen, Sending you whatever form of love/hugs that you are comfortable with. It is truly amazing that you have found all of this out and are making so many changes to your life and the lives of many others with your challenge. You are amazing!) While we did not move around much, my parents were in a multicultural marriage living in a 3rd country, so I just thought the othering was because we were always foreign (no matter where i am, I am never "from here"). On the funny side, at least I find it funny, I always thought everyone else was the aliens and I was the person, hehe. I've also been advising people for years that a good way to handle leaving your house and deal with people, is to "put on an invisible suit". Totally not masking! Now, it seems so obvious! And it is both relieving and overwhelming.
Thank you so much, Orion, and Karen.
What an excellent interview, I resonate with a lot that was said. Thank you Orion and Karen. 😊
Thank you so much for this video! Your conversation has helped me so much! Seeing myself so much clearer 🙏🏽
thank you for this fantastic chat with karen from proudlyautistic :) ❤
Thank you for sharing. I grew up in a similar environment. An autistic mother and a narcissistic father. They would drink on the week-ends. It would always end with my mom having a melt down.
Thank you both so much for sharing your stories. I appreciate it a whole lot.
This conversation wasn't long enough! I could have listened to you both for hours. I'm subscribed to Karen's channel also, her insights on employment and the workplace are invaluable and sadly all too relatable 🙄 I'm really looking forward to the next collaboration whenever that happens! ☺️
I find it quite disturbing that Karen's therapist was about to diagnose her with borderline personality disorder, after careful consideration and several sessions, and only last minute changed her mind. Had the last session gone differently, Karen would have received a bpd diagnosis. How is this OK?
Only scceptable use of a diagnostic SHOULD be helping a patient SO providers SHOULD try first the less aggressive option, follow up attentively, and go back to diagnosis if there is no remarkable improvement.
Fab video. Thanks for sharing your story, Karen.
Orion, you certainly depict the grieving process well for a late diagnosed adult! That is where I still am [different places, of course, but still in grief mixed with shock and anger/resentment].
A very touching video, thank you for sharing! Resonates a lot :)
Thank you Orion and Karen
My father was/is a malignant narcissist. The more I watch your videos, the more they resonate. I've decided to get tested (What ever that means).
I can't even tell you both how much your channels have helped me feel Okay. You've helped me more fully own my autism and my authentic self in general. So grateful to you and love your content
I share a very similar experience with her parent. I had one narcissistic and sometimes physically abusive parent and the other who was very controlling. So, as you can imagine those were chaotic clashes. I can specifically remember it being screamed in my face that "This is your fault!!" And just hearing stories and things, as an adult, I realize no child should year. I never grew up around any family besides my mom, father, and older brother most of my life until my younger brother came along. My father was very into baseball and a military background so it was always an issue that I had different interests. Everytime I didn't want to play baseball or got a C on a test, I lost all privledges to anything I enjoyed doing. I have done the "rocking" my whole life when excited, stressed, or trying to sleep. That bothered him heavily and constantly made fun of. I also wet the bed a little longer than I should have. Was grounded and told I was waking up and doing this to piss him off. If I liked something different, it was to piss him off. If I didn't want to play baseball, it was to piss him off. According to him and my mom, they knew what I was interested in more than I did. And anytime I liked something new it was seen as a rebellious effort. I walked around like I was on ice because of getting screamed at for walking on my heels or "stomping". I got yelled at for crossing my feet when talking and walking around and not making eye contact when getting screamed at. To this day, they fail to recognize it. I didn't know anyone autistic (I'm sure I did but didn't know) growing up. But I did have a father who I got to see make fun of my best friend who has a lot of autistic traits as well who got me into tech and video games and science, who was "gifted". He ran and shook his head and hands when running and we would be eating dinner and he'd start making fun of people. What I've realized that has helped me to cope when my dad's assholery and all that stuff is the fact that he has already told why he was the way he was without realizing. And to learn the reason I was mistreated my whole life is because he was weak and couldn't handle anything internally so he lashed out for his own life's regrets. I did not have a normal life. I didn't know what abuse was. I was threatened with juvy and military school for running to my mom's work through snow barefoot in shorts for being chased. I found out I am autistic 6 months ago. I had already been diagnosed with OCD, ADHD, GAD, MDD but they never really felt exactly like what I was feeling when I'd hear others talk about experiences. This channel and others helps more than you all can know. A lot of the time I feel disconnected from society and people in general. I relate to you both and this was nice to hear about similar experiences because a lot of other people share very different experiences that almost make you sad you didn't have that in ways. I have been in a burnout state for months and also have Systematic Lupus and run fevers daily of 100-103. That being said, within the last 2 months I got enrolled in summer classes starting in May to get an AS in Computer Science. This is my 3rd time trying but i will succeed this time because I know how to handle things better and have outlets like this channel to help as well and relate to. I never do things like this but very relatable experiences described. Thank you both. ❤
Wow, I was told as well as a child that if I didn't behave like the others I would be taken to an orphanage. Also I had to keep quiet about the alcoholism and being abused at home.
So I stayed silent for half of my life.
Thank you so much for this.
2:15 with you there sister...
3:15 and confusion
5:46 exactly
My narc parent was the special education teacher and I was an occasional TA or her you would think it would have clicked but I thought I was just unpopular because I was poor.