Why do you think Edward might have gained the name the Black Prince? Let me know below and remember to check out my Patreon at www.patreon.com/historycalling and my Amazon storefront at www.amazon.com/shop/historycalling
I read, somewhere, that his armour was black, not from paint but from the technics they used to polish and protect the armour from rust and that they used a mix with soot and he didn't want the pieces shiny so he'd be less visible on a battlefield.......Don't even try to guess where I read it because I can't remember, I've been reading Medieval history for 50 years, so that's a lot of books gone by the wayside in my living around the world....Good luck finding anything more, I haven't heard anything or seen another reference of this sort only those you mentioned!!!
There's only 2 reasons that I could think of but one mainly He always wore a BLACK SUIT OF ARMOR . The 2nd reason may be because Philipa Hainault, if she is his mother , is technically considered BLACK according to historians. But I don't really know
Another great episode, I think the name comes from what he wore into battle and other manly activity's he dressed for. Do I win a prize is I am right? In the USA we also had a great Black Prince. He also played one great Axe
lol. IKR? But they actually did all right! Robert of Normandy, who conquered England, had taken control of all of Normandy by 20. Holy moly. Henry II. But you know what? Their kids were absolute total butthead kids too🤣. “I’m a grownup now!” 🙄
I remember my grandmother telling me "I don't care what they tell you at school, the Black Prince was Chinese". Obviously she was suffering from severe dementia.
Haaahaahah careful. We will have Chinesecentrists next claiming that because one or two were they all were (which is what Afrocentricists do). His mother's description is online. Brown all over like her father and more which makes it clear she was part African decent. Charlotte was much lighter skinned. Unfortunately there is one commenting on here who seems convinced that they were all black up until a couple of hundred years ago.
@@actsfive30 meaning what exactly? The incas had written language as did the Chinese. Written languages are generally accepted to have developed independently in different parts of the world. Modern Japanese is thought to have originated from Korea but replaced the older already existing Jomon. The use of written languages spread - but that didn't mean the people did. Greek and Latin developed from Eastern languages but that doesn't mean the Greek and Roman people did.
The Incas used intricately knotted cords called quipus which were evidently used to keep government records. To this day the system has not been completely understood.
I had read in highschool, some forty years ago now, that he was called the "Black Prince" because of his frequent participation in tournaments as a Black Knight. The book mentioned his love of tournaments, but obviously he couldn't compete as prince because raising arms to the sovereign was a death sentence, so he would cover his arms and compete anonymously. I wish I remembered the book, I've retold this tale as I read it many, many times over the years. Anyway, cheers and thanks for the insightful video, I learned a lot I had not previously known.
An alternative theory is that he was known as the Black Prince for the background colour of the shield he used for jousting. "The Black Prince bore (as an alternative to his differenced royal arms) a shield of Sable, three ostrich feathers argent, described as his "shield for peace", probably meaning the shield he used for jousting. These arms appear several times on his chest tomb in Canterbury Cathedral, alternating with his paternal royal arms (the royal arms of King Edward III differenced by a label of three points argent)."
You are correct. It was Johann (John) the Blind’s shield of arms he adopted after he witnessed his heroic and mortal cavalry charge against the enemy. This is where the nickname comes from and I was positive it’s accepted fact at this point. His black armour and other stories are later myths.
There is a stained glass window in the old town hall in Dover, Kent depicting Edward 3rd (in gold armour) & son (in blackened armour) boarding ships departing for France. I do not know how old window is, but it learns toward "black prince" title being due to colour of armour. I have also heard that it may have referred to peacetime coat of arms for Prince of Wales, which is 3 white feathered quills on a black background.
Having been a daily communicant at the 08.00 Eucharist at Canterbury Cathedral, I could not help but admire The Black Prince’s Tomb and glorious armour hanging above it. Be at Peace Brave Warrior 🥀🥀 x
When one tours Carcassone, the guide mentions the Black Prince-- who could not enter the fortified town, so trashed the entire surroundings to vent his spleen.
As always your research is impeccable! I do appreciate the amount of time you must be spending preparing, reading, digging out old sources. It’s always a treat to hear yet another story from you with your lovely accent. You are my favourite RUclips history channel. Why do I think Edward might have gained this name? I have no idea. But it’s a great example of how a good badass nickname sticks. Have a lovely weekend!
Thanks Pep. Yes, it does take quite some time but I think it's worth it rather than doing a very surface-level video that anyone with access to Wikipedia could put together. I see other RUclipsrs doing that and to be brutally honest, they aren't real historians in my opinion, just fakers.
Something I've appreciated in several videos is how you analyse the sources you use. Taking into consideration the writer's possible bias/world view, whether the information is first hand or court gossip etc. It's something I've come to expect from your work and i enjoy it very much.
Thank you. Yes, we should always be doing that and it's a bit of a warning sign when someone isn't bothering. It suggests they aren't a real historian. I remember being taught to do it as an undergrad and then eventually teaching my own undergrads to do the same.
We even have authentic depictions of Edward III, showing us clearly a black person. Do the necessary research! There's no pro-black bias in those who deliberately destroyed an estimated 97% of all English patrimony, relics, paintings, frescoes, churches, and writings during the reformation period. Don't you even bother to investigate?
Thank you so much. It's hard work, but I think it's worth the effort. As I've said to a few other commenters, I don't want to be one of those lousy RUclipsrs who just does surface-level videos that basically regurgitate Wikipedia. They aren't even real historians.
Thanks Helga. It's always a bit of extra work to track down the sources, but I think it's worth it rather than just creating a very surface-level video.
I seriously doubt those Tudor writers just popped the nickname out of thin air. It is possible that in royal palace/military gossip and prattle that he had been called that for some reason for a very long time. It is just that no one literate bothered to mention it because they didn't feel it was all that relevant. Any of us could have a distant ancestor nicknamed "stinky" or "swagbelly" and we would never know, because no one literate ever wrote it down. And eventually Ascham and Leland (who had interest military/royal subjects) did write it down generations later. It may also be that he was being called that in France or elsewhere and scholars in English aren't looking through those records for evidence of it because they don't speak French. We may eventually find evidence of his being called that earlier than the 1500s in English, but it could easily exist in France or elsewhere in Europe.
I read that it was due to his black armour, then elsewhere it was his hair, thank you for your take on this conumdrum as always you're a favourite person of mine as your content on the historical side of things sound pretty accurate to me . ❤
One thought is that is from his arms of peace. Nobility did not always just have one set of arms ( heraldic devices) The Plantagenet arms of war were the quartered arms of England and France, which was a giant F-U to the kings of France and was shocking when initially displayed. Edward's arms of peace (the heraldry) was white ostrich feathers on a sable (black) field. During his funeral, two knights road before his coffin, one wearing his royal arms (arms of war) and the other his arms of peace of the black shield with three ostrich feathers argent.
THANK YOU SO MUCH AUXETICALLY for your very generous donation to the channel. I'm glad you enjoyed the video and appreciated the primary source work as that's the bit that really takes a lot of time to do. :-)
👏👏 As always, even more enjoyable on second viewing, HC. I wonder how frustrating it was for you being unable to locate a source for the moniker from Edward's lifespan. Even without the internet, legends spring up throughout history. I seem to remember Jack the Ripper's moniker was signed to a letter that's generally accepted to have been a hoax. So here we are with The Black Prince and Jack, their legends intact. Well done, HC!!
Not too frustrating thankfully. I just accepted that it was posthumous and tried to explain where I thought it did come from. History's like that - there's always gaps in our knowledge but sometimes that's part of the fun :-)
I suppose one could cite many other well known historical figures especially those with the epithet "great" after their names -I'm sure most were given the descriptor long after their deaths! When did Ivan start to be called "terrible" or Aethelred deemed to be "unready" or Julian called an "apostate' (the Roman emperor who reverted to paganism.) Chroniclers and historians were probably the ones responsible for this adjectives.
My Grandmother told me "Don't ever let anyone tell you different, the Black Prince was black." Ncuti Gatwa will be portraying him in the upcoming 'documentary'.
When I first heard of him when I was a kid, I assumed he had a black suit of armour, and I later read that theory given as fact and so stuck with it for many years. In more recent years, I’ve seen other sources that basically say no one really knows. Of course it could have been a combination of black armour/clothing/accessories *and* cruel behaviour that got him the name.
If you look at many contemporary pictures of armour it is frequently depicted as blank for everyone. See, for example, the pictures of the Peasants' Revolt Blacking or blueing armour helped protect against rust.
I thought he was like Zorro. In fact I wonder if Edward and his surrounding myths somehow influenced the development of the character. Even if very indirectly
Off topic but Ive always been fascinated with English tomb effigies. The Black Prince’s effigy has always been my favorite. Btw superb research in this video 👍
They're pretty amazing. I'm always intrigued by how the person is portrayed, whether he or she has a pillow, a dog, etc. The ones laid out on their sides, head propped up by a bent arm, look like a painful way to spend eternity -- *my* neck and back would be screaming. 😁
Great video as always! I had always assumed that the nick name was based on his behavior but I see now that it wasn't necessarily true. I am more skeptical that it was from the color of his armor since that first appears much later in the records than the behavior attribution does. Considering the fact that there is no surviving evidence that Richard III had scoliosis but it was apparently common knowledge by Shakespeare's time and it turned out that he really did suffer from scoliosis, I'm inclined to lean toward to the behavior as the origin of that nick name. Just because no contemporary records of it survived doesn't mean he didn't earn it by his behavior.
@@HistoryCalling ..... Wasn't Richard III' s body just located in a place that was a parking space in a garage and dug up and re buried in a more appropriate place?
@@lindatimmons3675 Yes, his grave was located under a parking garage (IIRC) at the site of the former Grey Friars Priory at Leicester, and he is now reburied in Leicester cathedral.
Shakespeare portrayed Richard as having a hunchback and we now know that's not true. I think he was actually writing about Robert Cecil who did have a hunchback and was highly disliked at court.
Excellent video. It's refreshing to see someone taking the time and effort to research something back to it original source, and not just repeat what other's have written, (which of often in error). Myths are hard to dispel because few people take the time to question them.
I enjoy your channel SO much! It's always beautifully presented and well researched. Also - you have such a lovely voice!!! Thanks for all your hard work.
I think it’s most likely that this was a common reference to him among the French population at the time. Over time, it became known and used by the English. That could explain the delay of it being referenced in sources…no one in his country would dare use it if it was meant to be derogatory.
@@HistoryCalling Quite possibly…😂 I’m definitely not a BP expert, but he just seems like the type that would relish such a title. After all, it’s much more flashy than Edward of Woodstock.
It is indeed. I bet if you say Edward of Woodstock to a lot of people they'd be scratching their heads, but say 'the Black Prince' and they'll say 'Oh yeah, I've heard of him'.
Can you do a video on Anne Neville, Richard III’s wife? I love your videos, they’re so informative and I’ve been on a War of the Roses kick lately and would like to hear more about her.
I've recently found your channel and enjoy it very much! As a teenager, I found a "historical romance" called The Lady Royal published in 1962 (and very much in the vein of more modern historical romances) that sparked my interest in the Plantagents (an on and off special interest!). I have really enjoyed your channel and the real history. Thank you so much!
Thank you so much for your meticulous study of this puzzling epithet and what it could possible refer to. I had thought it referred to the cruel Chevauchee of 1355, which was a black time indeed for the people of southern France, but I probably picked that up from historical novels, most notably Bernard Cornwell's Grail Series. Another (purest speculation on my part) is from possible oral traditions relating to the root cause of the Wars of the Roses? In other words, some may have seen England's troubles in the 15th century, including the eventual loss of all their French holdings, as some sort of moral retribution for Edward's actions during the 100 Years War. That's not much to base a theory on, is it? Perhaps some day a new source will come to light!
Thanks Ann. Like yourself I hope more evidence comes to light too. I often wonder how many juicy historical sources are tucked away in archives, libraries and attics, having fallen down the back of a shelf or something :-)
@@HistoryCalling Probably a lot! I visited a lovely couple in Shropshire who discovered some Tudor-era murals hidden under later paper and paint in their 16th-century home. So these things do happen!
I was born in Leeds and spent 15 years there before my parents took me to live in Luton. I vividly remember the statue of the black prince outside the main railway station. It was moved some years ago so that a large office building could be erected on the site. Sadly I never learnt about this statue’s history in school nor where it was moved to, although I do recall wondering why it was never cleaned!!, I guess I thought it was because black all the time! I miss those times in my life so much!
The statue of Edward is still in Leeds City Square, outside the train station and is still both magnificent and popular with local pigeons. In the past couple of months it's been surrounded by an art work called Leeds forest, or something like that, which is nice, but it distracts from the statue quite a bit, which I consider to be a shame. I don't recall the statue being moved at all during my life time, but I've not always been paying attention!
I am going to assume that "surname" meant what we would now call say is a nickname instead of what we now refer to as a surname...because the Black Prince's actual surname would have been Plantagenet yet the phrase "surnamed "The Black Prince" comes up regularly
I just mean it was used as a second word (or rather words) in order to identify him. You're correct though that it wasn't used as a surname in the sense that it's not something he passed onto his children. Yes, upon reflection, the word 'nicknamed' maybe would have been better.
I'm big into genealogy. And he is my ancestor. But you have to create references to appearances,occupations etc. Just to separate the time line and keep track. So many people and even duplicate names! It could be his hair was black,or he was really particularly dark natured or his armor was black or even all three! He sounds like a goth to me!
@@Lornicopia His mother was also your ancestor then. Her description is online. Brown all over like her father. Prognostic jaw etc. She was mixed race. He was called the Little Black Prince by the ladies in the French Court, where he was raised.
@@angr3819 I had a blond moment! I am actually descended descended from John of Gaunt his brother through two of his wives,first the daughter of Peter The Cruel,and second his mistress Kathryne Swynford. And Through Edmund of Langely his other brother and his wife who was also the daughter of Peter The Cruel of Spain.
This is out of my wheel house but damn I like your use of the sources, and while I tend to focus on the late modern period, by which I mean 1789 to the current day I am happily subscibing thank you for the quality.
So, totally off topic: I really liked the intro picture with your music that you used for this video (the book, glasses and candle). It has so much more depth and is very representative of what you actually do to produce your videos.
This is great content, I really appreciate the questioning of the sources on this channel, yay for academic rigor! I created an ice cream flavor years ago I call “the Black Prince of Wales”: Earl Grey tea, black peppercorn, and basil simple syrup; it’s usually quite spicy ☺️
I've seen reference to a coat of arms Edward carried, as Prince of Wales, with the three feathers in white on a black background. If he carried this shield it's likely he had a matching surcoat. Thus, even if his armor wasn't blackened, which some armor was in the 14th century, he could have still fought in black. Edit: The shield I refer to is actually on his tomb, though with golden feathers.
@@factsdontcareaboutyourfeel7204 Why does that bother you so much? The British monarchs were blacks. Say it out loud! Tell me what happened? Did the world end? We know already. We know the secret, well, at least a couple of them.
A43 was completely different tank it wasnt an up armored churchill. It was created with the intention of supplying ground units with the 17-pounder gun
Ahhh, the first History Calling video of the 2nd half of life (50th bday was 14th) , and my favorite color is BLACK, so fantastic way to start my 50th year!
Those were the days - if the king wanted to wage war he would actually fight, and his relatives would too. Yet they still had frequent battles, and highborn men and boys got killed.
@@EasytheGoon Many died either in battle or were executed after, like perhaps the Duke of York and probably also his oldest son, the young Earl of Rutland, or like Edward, Prince of Wales, Henry VI's son.
Thank you for another fine video. I continue to really enjoy your channel, and your accent is icing on the cake. Yes, I'm one of those Americans who love all U.K. accents. 👍
Thanks Christopher. That's very generous of you, especially as I don't even like all UK accents (though I won't risk offending anyone by saying which ones I'm not partial to).
I stood by Edward's coffin in Canterbury Cathedral in 1981. I took a photo which looks just like your photo. I felt an old time presence. The most vivid memory I have is that of a very handsome man coming in to the cathedral. It was winter and very cold and snowing outside. This man, all dressed in black, noticed that he was about to step over a grave in the flooring and then gingerly stepped around it.
It seems to me that a man who fought at Crecy at the age of 16. Who won the battle of Poitiers at incredible odds capturing the King of France would be a legendary figure. He would have attracted a powerful oral tradition as well as mentions in chronicles ....many of which could be lost. Remember France was much the larger country and would have nothing good to say about a man who conducted several brutal raids through enemy territory. I'm in no doubt that "Black Prince" was a contemporary term whether it originated in England or France. Whether it was a description of his armour, complexion or disposition is more difficult. It took me YEARS to realise that chivalry only applied to the ruling classes and that makes me think it was his behaviour that caused it. This was the high point of chivalry and that strikes me as ironic.
I think his treatment of the French king after Poitiers was regarded as exemplary and chivalrous and lauded as such. His father was obsessed with tales of King Arthur and I guess that was the yardstick? The rules of behaviour certainly didn't apply to everyone though! A warrior and product of his time?
@@HistoryCalling I guess it just means his behavior toward those of the upper classes was correct and honorable. Bad luck if you weren't of that echelon.
@@edithengel2284 Exactly. When you look at the non-England sources, and the censuses of Scotland, France and Spain (And some Italian sources) he clearcut most of Northern Spain and France, putting man, woman, child and animal to the sword, in rough, cruel ways that would have made genocidal maniacs like Hitler get squeamish. And it seems like the "Black armour" myth has been disproven of late.
I have to wonder if somewhere in a French library or archive there is a contemporary document referring to him as The Black Prince. It would make sense since so many of his dark deeds took place in France, and it took many years for the nickname to cross the channel and become common in England.
I tend to think it was because of the color of his armor. The reason for this is because when someone is unusually cruel, there are usually historical accounts of their atrocities that go into lurid detail. I can see black armor as being more practical due to being easier to camoflage in low light conditions such as during fog or evening or even very early morning and it could be that others who also chose to blacken their armor were not of the princely class.
Look at the pictures of the Peasants'Revolt - all of the armour is black. This is a common feature. It has nothing to do with camouflage, it's about trying to prevent rust.
Edward Prince of Wales 1343, knighted in 1346 then the Black Death arrived in 1348. A long shot but a possible connection as he was expected to be the first king after the plague. Another that it may have been a reference to the famous Plantagenet temper as he was black haired rather than red. But you cleared up something for me when you said Anne Boleyn was referred to as swarthy. Explains that series when she and her family were depicted as black.
I love your content. You do so much research to try and get to the bottom of things. You always make things so interesting 🙂 i just want to say thank you for what you do.
I would love to see a video with a general discussion of primary sources, how reliable or unreliable they are, how writers copy each other, how stories, rumors, and urban legends can get fossilized into accepted fact, and then merrily reproduced down the ages, recreated in literature and popular culture, until nobody remembers they were never (or unlikely to be) true to begin with. In your video on Christina of Milan, you revealed her supposed quip about marrying Henry VIII If she had two heads was an invention, which I honestly found kind of disappointing. 😀. What kinds of sources would you consider the most reliable? Thanks again for another fascinating video!
Oh gosh. That's a really big topic. To be honest it's the kind of thing you can really only look at one example at a time as otherwise it's just so vast. As for the best primary sources, they are ones written/painted/recorded by a person who witnessed the event in question and made their record of said event at the time or very soon afterwards and had little reason to lie about it. Something like Anne Frank's diary is a good example, or private letters sent between family members or close friends whom we could expect to be honest with one another.
I always wondered why he was called the Black Prince. I thought it had to do with his cruelty and brutality. I really appreciate all your hard work you put into on why Edward was called the Black Prince. It was all very interesting. Too bad we don’t have evidence from his life time. I still think he got his name because his inner darkness. Thank you for the history lesson. Have a lovely weekend.
@@di3486 No. The ladies in the French Court where he was raised, called him "the little black Prince". See the online description of his mother Philippa of Hanault.
@@angr3819 She was white. Millions of Europeans have olive skin, they still are caucasian. Black prince was due to his black armor. Your information is wrong.
There is another knight given the moniker „Black“. I am referring to James Douglas who is know to the Scots as Good Sir James and who was known in England as the „Black Douglas“. He was given this nickname by the English for the terror he installed in them during the wars of Scottish independence. Therefore I believe that Edward gained his nickname for the same reasons as it was already in use and known in England to represent a ruthless fighter in battles.
Facts. I believe there was a Netflix made movie concerning Robert the Bruce and his fight with the English and his alliance with Black Douglas who was played so well by Aaron Taylor Johnson.
Have you not yet considered the etymology of Douglas? I mean, it's right before your eyes, and you can't see it!!!! Douglas is derived from the Gaelic elements: dubh, meaning "dark, black."
Richard 3 was not a hunchback with a withered arm as described by Shakespeare - yes he had an S curve to his spine but it’s not the same thing. The play Richard III was written to please a Tudor audience.
Richard 111 had scoliosis but his armour shows a slightly lower shoulder exactly the same condition as Princess Eugenie of York who had surgery. At her wedding you could see her scar on her back. It didn’t affect Richard 111 fighting ability
On a 2014 PBS documentary they investigated R.III. bones & diet. Plus found a young man with scoliosis, made him a suit of armour & saddle similar to the Kings. Then trained him how to fight. It showed royal armours were truly high tech and the King without doubt had the abilities to fight & fight well. The documentary is called: Secrets of the Dead: Resurrecting Richard III.
It is amazing that we have such detailed information about the origin of the Black Prince's nickname. You gave us greater understanding, enumerating the chronicles of the period. I always thought that Edward was known the fact that he was wearing black armor into the battles. However, the prince's reputation in France was certainly "black", so as the theory of nickname came from french origin. This because he went on campaign seizing the city of Limoges and destroyed it. ? Thank you for another fascinating video!
Shalam I beg the difference between your History and the History of my ppls. You see your History is identical to my ppls History , so someone's got their History fact confused, & by due diligence you shall know the truth. For the Aristocracy that ruled in the 14th through early 17th century where of dark skin,(swarthy), you know black ppls. How hard is it for scholars/ historians to tell the truth of it all. Please do your due diligence & help debunk the lies we've been fed for so many years. Shalam.
For me, I have never thought of it as in he was of black Colour. I've alwsys thought of him as in having a black heart or a person of black character as in evil. Interesting. 🖤🐝
You have a lovely voice, that's a joy to listen to. I'm American with a very Midwestern dialect. My first guess for you, would be Irish but I'm not well versed enough to place the exact region.
The black prince was responsible for the sigil of the prince of Wales. It’s an adaption of John the Blinds. Edward witnessed the old king ride into battle , even with his impairment, and was so moved he adopted and modified the sigil. Sadly the old man died in his last act of bravery. 😢
I think Edward got his nickname "The Black Prince from his sacking of Limoges. I wonder if some lost medieval French chroniclers called him the Black Prince for his infamous dark deeds in France and if earlier historians saw said chronicles and simply did not site their source just thought the source was Froissart? He Edward literally slaughtered the whole city of Limoges... That was the impression I got from Barbara Tuchman's "A Distant Mirror" and it fits him very well.
@@HistoryCalling I wonder that too especially with the Princes in the Tower and other things. I wish people back then had cited their sources. Thank You for replying. =-)>
I have never heard of the Black Prince. I was thinking that this was his nickname given by the men on the battlefield because of the way he fought in war. Maybe he was ruthless and cruel on the battlefield.Thanks for the great video.
5:57 I have that 1st edition book (and thanks to it, did well in English Literature) 😀. Holinshed's peculiar historical inaccuracies are also in Shakespeare's plays. Holinshed is thought to have been a major historical source for The Bard.
Usually I would say Mockumentary now. However, his mother was Philippa of Hanault and her description is online. Mixed race. He is nothing to be proud of. If the we wuz gang want to boast he is theirs, they are welcome to that one - and his brother John.
@@angr3819 Claims of her "mixed race" are based on non contemporary descriptions. Her lineage is well recorded for several generations, Any African that may have been in her DNA would of been heavily diluted by the time it got to her. Any claims of a darker skin tone could be easily explained by the natural variance in white skin.
@@Blackmark7410 Even if you obtain your history from the Web you could see it was documented by letter at the time. Philippa was only age 9 when the description was written. Edward only 12. The description of her prognostic jaw, her protruding forehead, lips etc makes it clear she was mixed race. Imo probably first generation mixed, so her offspring would have been second generation mixed and less dark. There were a few, not many, who had dark to swarthy complexions. Obviously Charlotte. My paternal grandmother was in service as a ladies maid in London from late 1913. She was told Victoria was brown. She saw Edward VIII herself and told me he was "tinged, sort of swarthy. Like someone from the Mediterranean''. Edward himself wrote a letter to the public to explain his colouring was due to Charlotte, although most people at the time knew and from what my grandmother said, hardly anyone cared. It even used to on the Web. Used to be. They didn't have divide and conquer racism pushed down their throats then. Mind, there weren't so many badly behaved from abroad then, either. They didn't have anyone claiming they were the ancient Britons, the Inuits, the Chinese and that they taught the world to bathe, that they invented everything and it was stolen from them (I have seen such ridiculous comments even on videos of documentaries). No one was coming here and demanding reparations for what we didn't do, denying white slavery to the USA was 6x worse, especially with stolen little children 4 years old up (cotton picking height). I won't go into that or this will be even longer. The fact is that he and his siblings were visibly mixed race, as was his mother. Not that it matters to me as I am not a fan of their lineages anyway, but it is history and they altered things here, so Imo we need to know about them. Also it is interesting to read and watch videos, but unfortunately a lot on the Web isn't what is written in old history books. However, I do prefer a monarchial system and not a republic. I want a Monarch from a lineage of the pre Roman Britons. Unfortunately that isn't going to happen.
@@angr3819 But none of the features in that one description by that Bishop are exclusively Black or mixed. High forehead, broad nose, dark brown eyes, hair between black and brown, all of them could be used to describe by dad, and he is white, even I have many of those features, yet very pale skin, that burns easily. Additionally there is always the matter of translation and interpretation. Some translations of the hair being "between black and brown" have been alternatively translated as "between blonde and brown". The question of her race is a very recent thing that is based purely in a desire to enact some false ideal of racial justice and not a genuine desire for historical fact. Meanwhile, there are many genuinely black, asain and other ethnic historic figures who are overlooked because these activist are too distracted with trying to baseless theories.
Often referred from the military operation around Limoges. However I am not convinced as this looks ljke looking at the past from a later prism. In the 1300's the Chevauchee was used extensively by the English to draw out the French military for battle. Starving towns out was common. Also the period was a high point of chivalry promoted in particular by troubadours in Southern France were a lot of English hereditary territory was, like Gascony and Aquitaine. Edward's father majored on this, particulary at Windsor. Here he tried to reconstruct the Round Table Hall of King Arthur and founded the Order of the Garter. The Blue Mantle of the Garter participants was sometimes worn in battle over the armour, as by John Duke of Bedford. I think Crecy is key. It was the first battle where it was recorded the English used artillery. As you mentioned, John the Blind king of Bohemia fought for the French. With chivalry high in peoples' minds imagine the scene. John had himself chained to two loyal knights, one either side, then pointed into the fray. Imagine the effect of that on a sixteen year old in his first real battle. The king and his horse wore completely black armorials, (not as in that romanticised painting with the Prince wearing black). The only relief from the black were white ostrich feathers. If the Prince was so impressed by the king's and valiant knights valour, and futile valour, all three became casualties, that he immediately chose the ostrich feathers as his own coat of arms as the Prince of Wales which continues to this day, is it unlikely that the black background upon which they were displayed was also used if only informally by the Prince on occasions? The black was not very far from the dark blue his father had instigated as the armorial of the Order of the Garter. I think this is where the link belongs rather than the revisionist nature of dark deeds because contemporaneously it wouldn't be so viewed. Edward IV later wore black armour but I think evidence is thin that Edward the Black Prince wore black armour. Again revisionists trying to muddy the waters. Thank you.
Surely, his shield ‘for peace’, in BLACK (sable) with the three feathers each bearing the ‘ich dien’ motto derived from the blind King of Bohemia, is prominently displayed (many times) in enamel on gilt lattern on his almost contemporary tomb at Canterbury?
@@alandodd858 Exactly so. It's hardly a coincidence if he was energised enough to chose the ostrich feathers that he chose the same background, sable, in some guise. He wore a dark blue cloak if a member of the Garter Order, maybe he had a spare black cloak for less formal occasions.
@@HistoryCalling Just think if he took the ostrich white plumes it's logical he took their background colour too. It's not too fanciful? Branding was everything to someone as high born as he. Especially someone impressionable as he at 16 in his first real encounter with danger.
Look up the description of his mother Philippa of Hanault Mixed race. Charlotte was much lighter skinned. That was about it for mixed race in the Royal Family.
I just read that the BP's armor is hanging over his tomb in Canterbury Cathedral. Doesn't it answer the question about the color of his armor? Of course, I suppose he had different sets of armor made at different times in his life.
I am a guide in Canterbury cathedral. Above Edward's tomb are 1950s replicas of his Achievements, including his cap of maintenance, surcoat, gauntlets, shield and a metal helmet. The originals are in an exhibition in the Cathedral undercroft. They give no hint as to the origins of 'Black Prince'. His effigy has him in full armour which is not black so I'm doubtful this was the reason.
@@angr3819 Phillipa of Hainault came from a long line of people born in what is now Belgium. She was not a black woman and none of her other children were ever described thus. Edward was not referred to as the Black Prince until a considerable time after his death as the video says.
It's funny, but I've never known much about the black prince. I think the moniker is given by future people. Just as ( I believe) Henry Percy was never known as The Wizard Earl during his lifetime
I wouldn't be surprised if there was plenty of evidence for the moniker being found in parts of France. If the French were calling him "le noir" due to his cruelty, then there must be references to him in french texts, certainly in Aquitaine. One day I am gonna go check him out. Could do with another wine adventure! 🍾🍷🥂 M
Start with the online description of his mother. Philippa of Hanault. Also the ladies of the French Court called him the little black Prince when he was being raised there. A little boy wouldn't have had a burnished suit of armour.
It's a hard call isn't it. Could have been either reason you mainly outlined or even his complexion. I suppose such descriptions could survive some time as a purely oral tradition before a written record is made? (or found). Thanks again for an interesting presentation.
Yes, I think oral history would have played a significant role here. Of course there could have been earlier written records too which are now lost, but we'll never know.
@philip. It's almost impossible for modern audiences--who happen to have pale complexions--to perceive a past where people with dark skin ruled, and yet that's the way it was. All you need do is consult _Memoirs of the Secret Services of John Mackey, Esq; During the Reigns of King William, Queen Anne, and King George I_ . Attempts to explain away what you'll find within are futile. It's absolutely clear; black Monarchs ruled Britain right up until the 18th century at least.
@@artstation707 I was right when I replies before about Afrocentricism from you. Philippa of Hanault and her offspring, and much lighter skinned Charlotte.
I think someone mistook his attire as referenced in the painting you presented from your good research, as armour. BYW, excellent video. Love and appreciate your work. Q: Didn't Shakespeare describe RIII as a hunchback? What was discovered/confirmed was as you stated, he had scoliosis. That would indicate that Shakespeare's take, was not confirmed. But I could be wrong as to exactly how Shakespeare described RIII's condition. Thank you.
Why do you think Edward might have gained the name the Black Prince? Let me know below and remember to check out my Patreon at www.patreon.com/historycalling and my Amazon storefront at www.amazon.com/shop/historycalling
I read, somewhere, that his armour was black, not from paint but from the technics they used to polish and protect the armour from rust and that they used a mix with soot and he didn't want the pieces shiny so he'd be less visible on a battlefield.......Don't even try to guess where I read it because I can't remember, I've been reading Medieval history for 50 years, so that's a lot of books gone by the wayside in my living around the world....Good luck finding anything more, I haven't heard anything or seen another reference of this sort only those you mentioned!!!
There's only 2 reasons that I could think of but one mainly
He always wore a BLACK SUIT OF ARMOR . The 2nd reason may be because Philipa Hainault, if she is his mother , is technically considered BLACK according to historians. But I don't really know
I've heard it was because of the color of his armor and/or his brutality in war.
Another great episode, I think the name comes from what he wore into battle and other manly activity's he dressed for. Do I win a prize is I am right? In the USA we also had a great Black Prince. He also played one great Axe
He was such a deadly foe. That's the probable source of the sobriquet.
His father sent him off to fight a war for him. When he was a teenager, I couldn't send my son outside to cut the grass without having to fight a war.
lol. IKR? But they actually did all right! Robert of Normandy, who conquered England, had taken control of all of Normandy by 20. Holy moly. Henry II. But you know what? Their kids were absolute total butthead kids too🤣. “I’m a grownup now!” 🙄
😂 😂 😂
DCF would NOT allow it.
That's hilarious,,,, I experienced a teenager who thought a wardrobe was a horizontal carpeted area that is accessible under the bed.
Genius.
@@KevinBowden-f3f Brilliant
Amazing how a cool sounding epithet that was probably never used in his day can become part of history just BECAUSE it sounds cool,
truly just delighted by the pigeon sitting on the statue's gauntlet.
Yes, they do land in some funny places and most outdoor statues of famous people are therefore covered in bird poop!
One must understand that, some days one is the pigeon, other days, one is the statue
Me too!!
I remember my grandmother telling me "I don't care what they tell you at school, the Black Prince was Chinese".
Obviously she was suffering from severe dementia.
Haaahaahah careful. We will have Chinesecentrists next claiming that because one or two were they all were (which is what Afrocentricists do).
His mother's description is online. Brown all over like her father and more which makes it clear she was part African decent.
Charlotte was much lighter skinned.
Unfortunately there is one commenting on here who seems convinced that they were all black up until a couple of hundred years ago.
Hahahaha
Funny thing is that the ancient languages are written by Afro asians,such as Arabic and Hebrew.. 🤔🤔
@@actsfive30 meaning what exactly? The incas had written language as did the Chinese. Written languages are generally accepted to have developed independently in different parts of the world. Modern Japanese is thought to have originated from Korea but replaced the older already existing Jomon. The use of written languages spread - but that didn't mean the people did. Greek and Latin developed from Eastern languages but that doesn't mean the Greek and Roman people did.
The Incas used intricately knotted cords called quipus which were evidently used to keep government records. To this day the system has not been completely understood.
I had read in highschool, some forty years ago now, that he was called the "Black Prince" because of his frequent participation in tournaments as a Black Knight. The book mentioned his love of tournaments, but obviously he couldn't compete as prince because raising arms to the sovereign was a death sentence, so he would cover his arms and compete anonymously. I wish I remembered the book, I've retold this tale as I read it many, many times over the years. Anyway, cheers and thanks for the insightful video, I learned a lot I had not previously known.
An alternative theory is that he was known as the Black Prince for the background colour of the shield he used for jousting. "The Black Prince bore (as an alternative to his differenced royal arms) a shield of Sable, three ostrich feathers argent, described as his "shield for peace", probably meaning the shield he used for jousting. These arms appear several times on his chest tomb in Canterbury Cathedral, alternating with his paternal royal arms (the royal arms of King Edward III differenced by a label of three points argent)."
You are correct. It was Johann (John) the Blind’s shield of arms he adopted after he witnessed his heroic and mortal cavalry charge against the enemy.
This is where the nickname comes from and I was positive it’s accepted fact at this point. His black armour and other stories are later myths.
Sounds good.
After he adopted the Bohemian Kings Ostrich feather arms they became the arms of the Prince of Wales up to the modern day
the Black Prince - Pedro the cruel - the 100 years war - good times - 🛸✨
Yup, they knew how to nickname people back then. :-)
@@HistoryCalling - oh God yeah - ✨
Vlad the Impaler 😅
At first I read that as "Rubio the Cruel" and had a brief "Married...With Children" flashback. Though tbf that was one of the show's best episodes.
Hand me a fruit peeler...I am off to enslave me some French princes 😆
There is a stained glass window in the old town hall in Dover, Kent depicting Edward 3rd (in gold armour) & son (in blackened armour) boarding ships departing for France.
I do not know how old window is, but it learns toward "black prince" title being due to colour of armour.
I have also heard that it may have referred to peacetime coat of arms for Prince of Wales, which is 3 white feathered quills on a black background.
The blackened armour was a myth later on, it was his black shield and the feathers that garnered him the nickname.
Having been a daily communicant at the 08.00 Eucharist at Canterbury Cathedral, I could not help but admire The Black Prince’s Tomb and glorious armour hanging above it. Be at Peace Brave Warrior 🥀🥀 x
When one tours Carcassone, the guide mentions the Black Prince-- who could not enter the fortified town, so trashed the entire surroundings to vent his spleen.
As always your research is impeccable! I do appreciate the amount of time you must be spending preparing, reading, digging out old sources. It’s always a treat to hear yet another story from you with your lovely accent. You are my favourite RUclips history channel.
Why do I think Edward might have gained this name? I have no idea. But it’s a great example of how a good badass nickname sticks.
Have a lovely weekend!
Thanks Pep. Yes, it does take quite some time but I think it's worth it rather than doing a very surface-level video that anyone with access to Wikipedia could put together. I see other RUclipsrs doing that and to be brutally honest, they aren't real historians in my opinion, just fakers.
Something I've appreciated in several videos is how you analyse the sources you use. Taking into consideration the writer's possible bias/world view, whether the information is first hand or court gossip etc. It's something I've come to expect from your work and i enjoy it very much.
Thank you. Yes, we should always be doing that and it's a bit of a warning sign when someone isn't bothering. It suggests they aren't a real historian. I remember being taught to do it as an undergrad and then eventually teaching my own undergrads to do the same.
We even have authentic depictions of Edward III, showing us clearly a black person. Do the necessary research! There's no pro-black bias in those who deliberately destroyed an estimated 97% of all English patrimony, relics, paintings, frescoes, churches, and writings during the reformation period. Don't you even bother to investigate?
This was so incredibly well researched and I greatly appreciate your efforts!!
Thank you so much. It's hard work, but I think it's worth the effort. As I've said to a few other commenters, I don't want to be one of those lousy RUclipsrs who just does surface-level videos that basically regurgitate Wikipedia. They aren't even real historians.
As always, you did amazing job working with the sources! Thank you so much for the video!
Thanks Helga. It's always a bit of extra work to track down the sources, but I think it's worth it rather than just creating a very surface-level video.
Yes indeed!
I seriously doubt those Tudor writers just popped the nickname out of thin air. It is possible that in royal palace/military gossip and prattle that he had been called that for some reason for a very long time. It is just that no one literate bothered to mention it because they didn't feel it was all that relevant. Any of us could have a distant ancestor nicknamed "stinky" or "swagbelly" and we would never know, because no one literate ever wrote it down. And eventually Ascham and Leland (who had interest military/royal subjects) did write it down generations later. It may also be that he was being called that in France or elsewhere and scholars in English aren't looking through those records for evidence of it because they don't speak French. We may eventually find evidence of his being called that earlier than the 1500s in English, but it could easily exist in France or elsewhere in Europe.
I read that it was due to his black armour, then elsewhere it was his hair, thank you for your take on this conumdrum as always you're a favourite person of mine as your content on the historical side of things sound pretty accurate to me . ❤
One thought is that is from his arms of peace. Nobility did not always just have one set of arms ( heraldic devices) The Plantagenet arms of war were the quartered arms of England and France, which was a giant F-U to the kings of France and was shocking when initially displayed. Edward's arms of peace (the heraldry) was white ostrich feathers on a sable (black) field. During his funeral, two knights road before his coffin, one wearing his royal arms (arms of war) and the other his arms of peace of the black shield with three ostrich feathers argent.
These videos are absolutely fascinating, I love the deep analysis of the various historical sources. Thank you so much!
THANK YOU SO MUCH AUXETICALLY for your very generous donation to the channel. I'm glad you enjoyed the video and appreciated the primary source work as that's the bit that really takes a lot of time to do. :-)
👏👏 As always, even more enjoyable on second viewing, HC. I wonder how frustrating it was for you being unable to locate a source for the moniker from Edward's lifespan. Even without the internet, legends spring up throughout history. I seem to remember Jack the Ripper's moniker was signed to a letter that's generally accepted to have been a hoax. So here we are with The Black Prince and Jack, their legends intact. Well done, HC!!
Not too frustrating thankfully. I just accepted that it was posthumous and tried to explain where I thought it did come from. History's like that - there's always gaps in our knowledge but sometimes that's part of the fun :-)
I suppose one could cite many other well known historical figures especially those with the epithet "great" after their names -I'm sure most were given the descriptor long after their deaths! When did Ivan start to be called "terrible" or Aethelred deemed to be "unready" or Julian called an "apostate' (the Roman emperor who reverted to paganism.) Chroniclers and historians were probably the ones responsible for this adjectives.
@@kaloarepo288 I disagree. These nicknames arise from common usage. Like the Venerable Bede.
Well researched and presented. Thank you.
I have always wondered why, great video, well done indeed.
This has been a really good discussion today! Lots of thoughtful people!
Yes, I'm very lucky that most of the people who comment under my videos are nice, kind and intelligent. Hardly any trolls thank goodness.
My Grandmother told me "Don't ever let anyone tell you different, the Black Prince was black." Ncuti Gatwa will be portraying him in the upcoming 'documentary'.
Love the reference
😂😅🤣😆😄
🤣😂🤣🤣
He definitely was black just ask any reputable historian!
Lol! Nice. 😆
Thank you for pursuing cited sources and finding and reading original material. You are a true historian!
Ridiculously excited I requested this thank you❤
You're welcome. It can take me a while to get to topics, but if it's a good idea I do try to make videos on it.
When I first heard of him when I was a kid, I assumed he had a black suit of armour, and I later read that theory given as fact and so stuck with it for many years. In more recent years, I’ve seen other sources that basically say no one really knows.
Of course it could have been a combination of black armour/clothing/accessories *and* cruel behaviour that got him the name.
Yes, a combo is a definite possibility.
Look up the description of Philippa of Hanault, who was his mother.
If you look at many contemporary pictures of armour it is frequently depicted as blank for everyone. See, for example, the pictures of the Peasants' Revolt
Blacking or blueing armour helped protect against rust.
He had a black heart
I thought he was like Zorro. In fact I wonder if Edward and his surrounding myths somehow influenced the development of the character. Even if very indirectly
Thanks for another wonderful video
You're welcome. Hope you enjoy hearing about the Black Prince :-)
Excellent. So well done and well researched. Your videos are a Joy!
Thank you so much :-)
Excellent work.
Off topic but Ive always been fascinated with English tomb effigies. The Black Prince’s effigy has always been my favorite. Btw superb research in this video 👍
Not at all, I love them too. I had a very interesting morning in Westminster Abbey last year photographing about 100 of them :-)
They're pretty amazing. I'm always intrigued by how the person is portrayed, whether he or she has a pillow, a dog, etc. The ones laid out on their sides, head propped up by a bent arm, look like a painful way to spend eternity -- *my* neck and back would be screaming. 😁
@@sweptashore indeed. And there are some interesting ones in remote churches dotted around the country. Also don’t forget the macabre cadaver effigies
Another great video!
Thank you so much :-)
Aaaah medieval history😌 my elixir!
Happy to oblige. Enjoy :-)
@@HistoryCallingSo I shall :))
Thanks for all your hard work. When I register for classes in August, you have helped steer me to definitely take a history course ❤
Great video as always! I had always assumed that the nick name was based on his behavior but I see now that it wasn't necessarily true. I am more skeptical that it was from the color of his armor since that first appears much later in the records than the behavior attribution does. Considering the fact that there is no surviving evidence that Richard III had scoliosis but it was apparently common knowledge by Shakespeare's time and it turned out that he really did suffer from scoliosis, I'm inclined to lean toward to the behavior as the origin of that nick name. Just because no contemporary records of it survived doesn't mean he didn't earn it by his behavior.
Yes, that's all true. Sometimes information did survive in oral traditions alone and has (like Richard's back) been proven to be true.
@@HistoryCalling .....
Wasn't Richard III' s body just located in a place that was a parking space in a garage and dug up and re buried in a more appropriate place?
@@lindatimmons3675 Yes, his grave was located under a parking garage (IIRC) at the site of the former Grey Friars Priory at Leicester, and he is now reburied in Leicester cathedral.
Shakespeare portrayed Richard as having a hunchback and we now know that's not true. I think he was actually writing about Robert Cecil who did have a hunchback and was highly disliked at court.
It is because of the color of his armor
Thank you as always!!
My pleasure. Thanks for watching and commenting 😄
Excellent video. It's refreshing to see someone taking the time and effort to research something back to it original source, and not just repeat what other's have written, (which of often in error). Myths are hard to dispel because few people take the time to question them.
I enjoy your channel SO much! It's always beautifully presented and well researched. Also - you have such a lovely voice!!! Thanks for all your hard work.
I think it’s most likely that this was a common reference to him among the French population at the time. Over time, it became known and used by the English. That could explain the delay of it being referenced in sources…no one in his country would dare use it if it was meant to be derogatory.
Perhaps, yes. It's a pretty cool sounding nickname though. I wonder if he would have quite liked it?
@@HistoryCalling Quite possibly…😂 I’m definitely not a BP expert, but he just seems like the type that would relish such a title. After all, it’s much more flashy than Edward of Woodstock.
It is indeed. I bet if you say Edward of Woodstock to a lot of people they'd be scratching their heads, but say 'the Black Prince' and they'll say 'Oh yeah, I've heard of him'.
His mother was Philippa of Hanault. Her description is online.
@@Leah-nc3yxExactly!
Excellent work and video!
Can you do a video on Anne Neville, Richard III’s wife? I love your videos, they’re so informative and I’ve been on a War of the Roses kick lately and would like to hear more about her.
I'm working my way through the women of the Wars of the Roses and she's next up on the list :-)
Wonderful research, well presented. Who could ask for anything more? ❤
Thank you. Hopefully no one :-)
I've recently found your channel and enjoy it very much! As a teenager, I found a "historical romance" called The Lady Royal published in 1962 (and very much in the vein of more modern historical romances) that sparked my interest in the Plantagents (an on and off special interest!). I have really enjoyed your channel and the real history. Thank you so much!
As a philosophy grad student I love this video. Excellent work 🤘🏽👏🏽
Thank you so much for your meticulous study of this puzzling epithet and what it could possible refer to. I had thought it referred to the cruel Chevauchee of 1355, which was a black time indeed for the people of southern France, but I probably picked that up from historical novels, most notably Bernard Cornwell's Grail Series. Another (purest speculation on my part) is from possible oral traditions relating to the root cause of the Wars of the Roses? In other words, some may have seen England's troubles in the 15th century, including the eventual loss of all their French holdings, as some sort of moral retribution for Edward's actions during the 100 Years War. That's not much to base a theory on, is it? Perhaps some day a new source will come to light!
Thanks Ann. Like yourself I hope more evidence comes to light too. I often wonder how many juicy historical sources are tucked away in archives, libraries and attics, having fallen down the back of a shelf or something :-)
@@HistoryCalling Probably a lot! I visited a lovely couple in Shropshire who discovered some Tudor-era murals hidden under later paper and paint in their 16th-century home. So these things do happen!
I was born in Leeds and spent 15 years there before my parents took me to live in Luton. I vividly remember the statue of the black prince outside the main railway station. It was moved some years ago so that a large office building could be erected on the site. Sadly I never learnt about this statue’s history in school nor where it was moved to, although I do recall wondering why it was never cleaned!!, I guess I thought it was because black all the time! I miss those times in my life so much!
The statue of Edward is still in Leeds City Square, outside the train station and is still both magnificent and popular with local pigeons.
In the past couple of months it's been surrounded by an art work called Leeds forest, or something like that, which is nice, but it distracts from the statue quite a bit, which I consider to be a shame.
I don't recall the statue being moved at all during my life time, but I've not always been paying attention!
I am going to assume that "surname" meant what we would now call say is a nickname instead of what we now refer to as a surname...because the Black Prince's actual surname would have been Plantagenet yet the phrase "surnamed "The Black Prince" comes up regularly
I just mean it was used as a second word (or rather words) in order to identify him. You're correct though that it wasn't used as a surname in the sense that it's not something he passed onto his children. Yes, upon reflection, the word 'nicknamed' maybe would have been better.
I'm big into genealogy. And he is my ancestor. But you have to create references to appearances,occupations etc. Just to separate the time line and keep track. So many people and even duplicate names! It could be his hair was black,or he was really particularly dark natured or his armor was black or even all three! He sounds like a goth to me!
@@Lornicopia His mother was also your ancestor then. Her description is online. Brown all over like her father. Prognostic jaw etc. She was mixed race.
He was called the Little Black Prince by the ladies in the French Court, where he was raised.
@@angr3819 I had a blond moment! I am actually descended descended from John of Gaunt his brother through two of his wives,first the daughter of Peter The Cruel,and second his mistress Kathryne Swynford. And Through Edmund of Langely his other brother and his wife who was also the daughter of Peter The Cruel of Spain.
I didn't remember he was a Plantagenet!
This is out of my wheel house but damn I like your use of the sources, and while I tend to focus on the late modern period, by which I mean 1789 to the current day I am happily subscibing thank you for the quality.
So, totally off topic: I really liked the intro picture with your music that you used for this video (the book, glasses and candle). It has so much more depth and is very representative of what you actually do to produce your videos.
Thank you. I thought it was time to freshen up the opening sequence.
@@HistoryCalling Well Done.
This is great content, I really appreciate the questioning of the sources on this channel, yay for academic rigor!
I created an ice cream flavor years ago I call “the Black Prince of Wales”: Earl Grey tea, black peppercorn, and basil simple syrup; it’s usually quite spicy ☺️
I've seen reference to a coat of arms Edward carried, as Prince of Wales, with the three feathers in white on a black background. If he carried this shield it's likely he had a matching surcoat. Thus, even if his armor wasn't blackened, which some armor was in the 14th century, he could have still fought in black.
Edit: The shield I refer to is actually on his tomb, though with golden feathers.
Maybe, yes.
12:04
How about he was simply black? Has this not crossed your mind?
@@artstation707lmao no.. he wasn’t black 🤦♂️
@@factsdontcareaboutyourfeel7204 Why does that bother you so much? The British monarchs were blacks. Say it out loud! Tell me what happened? Did the world end? We know already. We know the secret, well, at least a couple of them.
Always fascinating! Thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it :-)
absolute typical medieval source plagiarism with 0 bibliography references. "IT IS BECAUSE WE SAY IT IS"😂
great upload thank you 🙏
During WW2 the British built a couple of prototypes of an up armoured Churchill tank that got the moniker “Black Prince”.
A43 was completely different tank it wasnt an up armored churchill. It was created with the intention of supplying ground units with the 17-pounder gun
Ahhh, the first History Calling video of the 2nd half of life (50th bday was 14th) , and my favorite color is BLACK, so fantastic way to start my 50th year!
HAPPY BIRTHDAY! Life begins at 50. None of this second half malarkey :-)
Happy birthday! I agree with HC; a whole new horizon opened up for me when I passed the half-century mark.
Very diligent research.
Those were the days - if the king wanted to wage war he would actually fight, and his relatives would too. Yet they still had frequent battles, and highborn men and boys got killed.
Or they died from contagious diseases caused by contamimated food and drink.
Well highborn were normally captured and ransomed.
@@EasytheGoon Many died either in battle or were executed after, like perhaps the Duke of York and probably also his oldest son, the young Earl of Rutland, or like Edward, Prince of Wales, Henry VI's son.
Thank you for another fine video. I continue to really enjoy your channel, and your accent is icing on the cake. Yes, I'm one of those Americans who love all U.K. accents. 👍
Thanks Christopher. That's very generous of you, especially as I don't even like all UK accents (though I won't risk offending anyone by saying which ones I'm not partial to).
@@HistoryCalling I love them all, from King Charles to Eliza Doolittle. Yuppers! And I admit it's simple jealousy!
I stood by Edward's coffin in Canterbury Cathedral in 1981. I took a photo which looks just like your photo. I felt an old time presence. The most vivid memory I have is that of a very handsome man coming in to the cathedral. It was winter and very cold and snowing outside. This man, all dressed in black, noticed that he was about to step over a grave in the flooring and then gingerly stepped around it.
You have disproved my theory HC I though he got the name from the colour of his armour thank you as always 😊👍
I thought that too before I dug into it. It's a very popular story and repeated all over the place, in books and websites etc.
@@HistoryCalling your as thorough as always HC, it's one Histories mysteries we will never know.
It seems to me that a man who fought at Crecy at the age of 16. Who won the battle of Poitiers at incredible odds capturing the King of France would be a legendary figure. He would have attracted a powerful oral tradition as well as mentions in chronicles ....many of which could be lost.
Remember France was much the larger country and would have nothing good to say about a man who conducted several brutal raids through enemy territory.
I'm in no doubt that "Black Prince" was a contemporary term whether it originated in England or France.
Whether it was a description of his armour, complexion or disposition is more difficult.
It took me YEARS to realise that chivalry only applied to the ruling classes and that makes me think it was his behaviour that caused it.
This was the high point of chivalry and that strikes me as ironic.
I know right. If his behaviour is chivalrous, what was considered bad, cause Edward was no angel?
I think his treatment of the French king after Poitiers was regarded as exemplary and chivalrous and lauded as such. His father was obsessed with tales of King Arthur and I guess that was the yardstick?
The rules of behaviour certainly didn't apply to everyone though!
A warrior and product of his time?
@@HistoryCalling I guess it just means his behavior toward those of the upper classes was correct and honorable. Bad luck if you weren't of that echelon.
@@edithengel2284 Exactly. When you look at the non-England sources, and the censuses of Scotland, France and Spain (And some Italian sources) he clearcut most of Northern Spain and France, putting man, woman, child and animal to the sword, in rough, cruel ways that would have made genocidal maniacs like Hitler get squeamish.
And it seems like the "Black armour" myth has been disproven of late.
Great video
I have to wonder if somewhere in a French library or archive there is a contemporary document referring to him as The Black Prince. It would make sense since so many of his dark deeds took place in France, and it took many years for the nickname to cross the channel and become common in England.
It would be brilliant if there was and it was located. It would certainly help to sort things out.
You can look up the description of his mother, Philippa of Hanault.
Very interesting, thank you!!
Thanks Nathan. Glad you liked it :-)
@@HistoryCalling yes so much history has been lost over the years
It really has. There are so many questions relating to the past that I'd love the answers to but I guess we just have to make do with what we've got.
I used to live in the house in Woodstock that he was born in. Student days. I believe the ‘black’ referred to his armour.
Now that's a good dinner party story. You should tell people you've seen his ghost as well :-)
Look up the description of his mother. Not white.
Thanks!
THANK YOU SO MUCH OKIE JAMMER for such a kind donation to the channel. I hope you enjoyed learning about the Black Prince.
I tend to think it was because of the color of his armor. The reason for this is because when someone is unusually cruel, there are usually historical accounts of their atrocities that go into lurid detail. I can see black armor as being more practical due to being easier to camoflage in low light conditions such as during fog or evening or even very early morning and it could be that others who also chose to blacken their armor were not of the princely class.
His mother was Philippa of Hanault. You can see her description online.
Look at the pictures of the Peasants'Revolt - all of the armour is black. This is a common feature.
It has nothing to do with camouflage, it's about trying to prevent rust.
this was so good I subscribed halfway through the vid!!!
Thank you so much and welcome aboard :-)
Edward Prince of Wales 1343, knighted in 1346 then the Black Death arrived in 1348. A long shot but a possible connection as he was expected to be the first king after the plague. Another that it may have been a reference to the famous Plantagenet temper as he was black haired rather than red. But you cleared up something for me when you said Anne Boleyn was referred to as swarthy. Explains that series when she and her family were depicted as black.
Google a description of his mother.
@@angr3819 The mother was white... Ann Boleyn herself had light red hair.
I love your content. You do so much research to try and get to the bottom of things. You always make things so interesting 🙂 i just want to say thank you for what you do.
I would love to see a video with a general discussion of primary sources, how reliable or unreliable they are, how writers copy each other, how stories, rumors, and urban legends can get fossilized into accepted fact, and then merrily reproduced down the ages, recreated in literature and popular culture, until nobody remembers they were never (or unlikely to be) true to begin with. In your video on Christina of Milan, you revealed her supposed quip about marrying Henry VIII If she had two heads was an invention, which I honestly found kind of disappointing. 😀. What kinds of sources would you consider the most reliable?
Thanks again for another fascinating video!
Oh gosh. That's a really big topic. To be honest it's the kind of thing you can really only look at one example at a time as otherwise it's just so vast. As for the best primary sources, they are ones written/painted/recorded by a person who witnessed the event in question and made their record of said event at the time or very soon afterwards and had little reason to lie about it. Something like Anne Frank's diary is a good example, or private letters sent between family members or close friends whom we could expect to be honest with one another.
Thank you.
You're welcome :-)
I always wondered why he was called the Black Prince. I thought it had to do with his cruelty and brutality. I really appreciate all your hard work you put into on why Edward was called the Black Prince. It was all very interesting. Too bad we don’t have evidence from his life time. I still think he got his name because his inner darkness.
Thank you for the history lesson. Have a lovely weekend.
Thanks Leticia. Yes, it's an interesting story, especially seeing how the legend has grown over time. Have a great weekend too.
The color of his armor
@@di3486 No. The ladies in the French Court where he was raised, called him "the little black Prince".
See the online description of his mother Philippa of Hanault.
@@angr3819 She was white. Millions of Europeans have olive skin, they still are caucasian. Black prince was due to his black armor. Your information is wrong.
Thankyou for your history it is always very interesting ‘& easy to listen to 💖✨💫
Glad you enjoyed it. Thank you for watching and commenting. :-)
There is another knight given the moniker „Black“. I am referring to James Douglas who is know to the Scots as Good Sir James and who was known in England as the „Black Douglas“. He was given this nickname by the English for the terror he installed in them during the wars of Scottish independence. Therefore I believe that Edward gained his nickname for the same reasons as it was already in use and known in England to represent a ruthless fighter in battles.
Facts.
I believe there was a Netflix made movie concerning Robert the Bruce and his fight with the English and his alliance with Black Douglas who was played so well by Aaron Taylor Johnson.
Outlaw King with Chris Pine?
@@HistoryCalling Scottish history?! 😂
Have you not yet considered the etymology of Douglas? I mean, it's right before your eyes, and you can't see it!!!! Douglas is derived from the Gaelic elements: dubh, meaning "dark, black."
@@HistoryCalling yes
Excellent 👌
Thank you! 😄
Richard 3 was not a hunchback with a withered arm as described by Shakespeare - yes he had an S curve to his spine but it’s not the same thing. The play Richard III was written to please a Tudor audience.
Yes, but it was still based in reality, albeit exaggerated for literary purposes.
Enjoy all your video's on history
Glad you like them 😄
Richard 111 had scoliosis but his armour shows a slightly lower shoulder exactly the same condition as Princess Eugenie of York who had surgery. At her wedding you could see her scar on her back. It didn’t affect Richard 111 fighting ability
On a 2014 PBS documentary they investigated R.III. bones & diet. Plus found a young man with scoliosis, made him a suit of armour & saddle similar to the Kings. Then trained him how to fight. It showed royal armours were truly high tech and the King without doubt had the abilities to fight & fight well.
The documentary is called:
Secrets of the Dead: Resurrecting Richard III.
Outstanding. Very enlightening. Roger Earl was the Drummer for Foghat!
Thanks Randy (and also, I didn't know that). :-)
It is amazing that we have such detailed information about the origin of the Black Prince's nickname. You gave us greater understanding, enumerating the chronicles of the period. I always thought that Edward was known the fact that he was wearing black armor into the battles. However, the prince's reputation in France was certainly "black", so as the theory of nickname came from french origin. This because he went on campaign seizing the city of Limoges and destroyed it. ? Thank you for another fascinating video!
Not his nickname. His mother's description is online. Philippa of Hanault.
I too thought it was for his armour
Shalam I beg the difference between your History and the History of my ppls.
You see your History is identical to my ppls History , so someone's got their History fact confused, & by due diligence you shall know the truth.
For the Aristocracy that ruled in the 14th through early 17th century where of dark skin,(swarthy), you know black ppls. How hard is it for scholars/ historians to tell the truth of it all.
Please do your due diligence & help debunk the lies we've been fed for so many years.
Shalam.
For me, I have never thought of it as in he was of black Colour. I've alwsys thought of him as in having a black heart or a person of black character as in evil. Interesting. 🖤🐝
@@angr3819very interesting. Never thought of it that way. 🐝
You have a lovely voice, that's a joy to listen to. I'm American with a very Midwestern dialect. My first guess for you, would be Irish but I'm not well versed enough to place the exact region.
The black prince was responsible for the sigil of the prince of Wales. It’s an adaption of John the Blinds. Edward witnessed the old king ride into battle , even with his impairment, and was so moved he adopted and modified the sigil. Sadly the old man died in his last act of bravery. 😢
Hi, awesome live history video I enjoyed it. Your video are always enjoyable. How are you? I'm doing well. Have a great day see you next video 😊
Thank you. I'm good thanks. Enjoying some nice weather here in the UK (although storms are now due).
I think Edward got his nickname "The Black Prince from his sacking of Limoges. I wonder if some lost medieval French chroniclers called him the Black Prince for his infamous dark deeds in France and if earlier historians saw said chronicles and simply did not site their source just thought the source was Froissart?
He Edward literally slaughtered the whole city of Limoges... That was the impression I got from Barbara Tuchman's "A Distant Mirror" and it fits him very well.
Yes, perhaps. There are so many historical sources missing that I wonder sometimes about all the information we've lost as a result.
@@HistoryCalling I wonder that too especially with the Princes in the Tower and other things. I wish people back then had cited their sources. Thank You for replying. =-)>
Such behaviours were nothing unusual in the Middle Ages.
As evil and dark as his behaviour was, it was his skin colour. The description of his mother Philippa of Hanault is online.
Thank you for an excellent study of what we know, and what we don't!
You're welcome. It's always worth going back to the original sources in my opinion to unpick stories like this.
I have never heard of the Black Prince. I was thinking that this was his nickname given by the men on the battlefield because of the way he fought in war. Maybe he was ruthless and cruel on the battlefield.Thanks for the great video.
It definitely sounds like a soldier's nickname, so you never know.
Delia. He got the nickname because he was black.
His mother's description is easy to Google. Not white.
@@angr3819 A suntanned olive skinned white person. My Scottish relatives would have been called black then😂
@@artstation707 lmao
5:57 I have that 1st edition book (and thanks to it, did well in English Literature) 😀. Holinshed's peculiar historical inaccuracies are also in Shakespeare's plays. Holinshed is thought to have been a major historical source for The Bard.
Just wait for the new Netflix "Documentary" comes out!
Haahaha
Usually I would say Mockumentary now.
However, his mother was Philippa of Hanault and her description is online. Mixed race.
He is nothing to be proud of. If the we wuz gang want to boast he is theirs, they are welcome to that one - and his brother John.
@@angr3819 Claims of her "mixed race" are based on non contemporary descriptions. Her lineage is well recorded for several generations, Any African that may have been in her DNA would of been heavily diluted by the time it got to her.
Any claims of a darker skin tone could be easily explained by the natural variance in white skin.
@@Blackmark7410 Even if you obtain your history from the Web you could see it was documented by letter at the time.
Philippa was only age 9 when the description was written. Edward only 12.
The description of her prognostic jaw, her protruding forehead, lips etc makes it clear she was mixed race. Imo probably first generation mixed, so her offspring would have been second generation mixed and less dark.
There were a few, not many, who had dark to swarthy complexions. Obviously Charlotte. My paternal grandmother was in service as a ladies maid in London from late 1913. She was told Victoria was brown. She saw Edward VIII herself and told me he was "tinged, sort of swarthy. Like someone from the Mediterranean''.
Edward himself wrote a letter to the public to explain his colouring was due to Charlotte, although most people at the time knew and from what my grandmother said, hardly anyone cared. It even used to on the Web. Used to be.
They didn't have divide and conquer racism pushed down their throats then. Mind, there weren't so many badly behaved from abroad then, either. They didn't have anyone claiming they were the ancient Britons, the Inuits, the Chinese and that they taught the world to bathe, that they invented everything and it was stolen from them (I have seen such ridiculous comments even on videos of documentaries). No one was coming here and demanding reparations for what we didn't do, denying white slavery to the USA was 6x worse, especially with stolen little children 4 years old up (cotton picking height). I won't go into that or this will be even longer.
The fact is that he and his siblings were visibly mixed race, as was his mother. Not that it matters to me as I am not a fan of their lineages anyway, but it is history and they altered things here, so Imo we need to know about them. Also it is interesting to read and watch videos, but unfortunately a lot on the Web isn't what is written in old history books.
However, I do prefer a monarchial system and not a republic. I want a Monarch from a lineage of the pre Roman Britons. Unfortunately that isn't going to happen.
@@angr3819 But none of the features in that one description by that Bishop are exclusively Black or mixed. High forehead, broad nose, dark brown eyes, hair between black and brown, all of them could be used to describe by dad, and he is white, even I have many of those features, yet very pale skin, that burns easily.
Additionally there is always the matter of translation and interpretation. Some translations of the hair being "between black and brown" have been alternatively translated as "between blonde and brown".
The question of her race is a very recent thing that is based purely in a desire to enact some false ideal of racial justice and not a genuine desire for historical fact.
Meanwhile, there are many genuinely black, asain and other ethnic historic figures who are overlooked because these activist are too distracted with trying to baseless theories.
the intro music reminded me of chocalate rain meme song for some reason. I don’t even think chocalate rain sounds like that😅
Often referred from the military operation around Limoges. However I am not convinced as this looks ljke looking at the past from a later prism. In the 1300's the Chevauchee was used extensively by the English to draw out the French military for battle. Starving towns out was common.
Also the period was a high point of chivalry promoted in particular by troubadours in Southern France were a lot of English hereditary territory was, like Gascony and Aquitaine. Edward's father majored on this, particulary at Windsor. Here he tried to reconstruct the Round Table Hall of King Arthur and founded the Order of the Garter. The Blue Mantle of the Garter participants was sometimes worn in battle over the armour, as by John Duke of Bedford.
I think Crecy is key. It was the first battle where it was recorded the English used artillery. As you mentioned, John the Blind king of Bohemia fought for the French. With chivalry high in peoples' minds imagine the scene. John had himself chained to two loyal knights, one either side, then pointed into the fray. Imagine the effect of that on a sixteen year old in his first real battle.
The king and his horse wore completely black armorials, (not as in that romanticised painting with the Prince wearing black). The only relief from the black were white ostrich feathers.
If the Prince was so impressed by the king's and valiant knights valour, and futile valour, all three became casualties, that he immediately chose the ostrich feathers as his own coat of arms as the Prince of Wales which continues to this day, is it unlikely that the black background upon which they were displayed was also used if only informally by the Prince on occasions? The black was not very far from the dark blue his father had instigated as the armorial of the Order of the Garter.
I think this is where the link belongs rather than the revisionist nature of dark deeds because contemporaneously it wouldn't be so viewed.
Edward IV later wore black armour but I think evidence is thin that Edward the Black Prince wore black armour. Again revisionists trying to muddy the waters.
Thank you.
Surely, his shield ‘for peace’, in BLACK (sable) with the three feathers each bearing the ‘ich dien’ motto derived from the blind King of Bohemia, is prominently displayed (many times) in enamel on gilt lattern on his almost contemporary tomb at Canterbury?
@@alandodd858 Exactly so. It's hardly a coincidence if he was energised enough to chose the ostrich feathers that he chose the same background, sable, in some guise. He wore a dark blue cloak if a member of the Garter Order, maybe he had a spare black cloak for less formal occasions.
Thanks Uther. A perfectly plausible theory :-)
@@HistoryCalling Just think if he took the ostrich white plumes it's logical he took their background colour too. It's not too fanciful? Branding was everything to someone as high born as he. Especially someone impressionable as he at 16 in his first real encounter with danger.
Look up the description of his mother Philippa of Hanault
Mixed race.
Charlotte was much lighter skinned.
That was about it for mixed race in the Royal Family.
I enjoyed listening to this account. You have a wonderful accent.
Thank you so much :-)
I just read that the BP's armor is hanging over his tomb in Canterbury Cathedral. Doesn't it answer the question about the color of his armor? Of course, I suppose he had different sets of armor made at different times in his life.
Maybe. I'd need to check if it's definitely original armour and then as you say, he probably had more than one suit in his lifetime.
I am a guide in Canterbury cathedral. Above Edward's tomb are 1950s replicas of his Achievements, including his cap of maintenance, surcoat, gauntlets, shield and a metal helmet. The originals are in an exhibition in the Cathedral undercroft. They give no hint as to the origins of 'Black Prince'. His effigy has him in full armour which is not black so I'm doubtful this was the reason.
@@margaretwoodhams8975 This so helpful! Thank you very much.
@@margaretwoodhams8975 His mother's description is online and explains his actual colour. Not white.
@@angr3819 Phillipa of Hainault came from a long line of people born in what is now Belgium. She was not a black woman and none of her other children were ever described thus. Edward was not referred to as the Black Prince until a considerable time after his death as the video says.
i thought Chaucer used the term "black prince", in his Canterbury tales, but ive only seen the film.
You are A aunt to Catherine and Henry; my kittens- that is.
Thank you :-)
It's funny, but I've never known much about the black prince. I think the moniker is given by future people. Just as ( I believe) Henry Percy was never known as The Wizard Earl during his lifetime
I'm off to Google the Wizard Earl now. I've never heard that before.
@@HistoryCalling its the Henry Percy who was supposed to be a favourite of Elizabeth I
His mother's description is online. Mixed race.
I wouldn't be surprised if there was plenty of evidence for the moniker being found in parts of France. If the French were calling him "le noir" due to his cruelty, then there must be references to him in french texts, certainly in Aquitaine. One day I am gonna go check him out. Could do with another wine adventure! 🍾🍷🥂
M
Perhaps, but I'm sure those sources would have been discovered and translated by now. Still, any excuse for a trip to France and a wine adventure 😄
Start with the online description of his mother. Philippa of Hanault. Also the ladies of the French Court called him the little black Prince when he was being raised there. A little boy wouldn't have had a burnished suit of armour.
Excellent video, Thank You. Please release your wonderful Irish accent! ;-)
It's a hard call isn't it. Could have been either reason you mainly outlined or even his complexion. I suppose such descriptions could survive some time as a purely oral tradition before a written record is made? (or found). Thanks again for an interesting presentation.
Yes, I think oral history would have played a significant role here. Of course there could have been earlier written records too which are now lost, but we'll never know.
@@HistoryCalling I read somewhere that Edward was fair haired. But again, that might have been a novelist rather than an "official" historian.
@philip. It's almost impossible for modern audiences--who happen to have pale complexions--to perceive a past where people with dark skin ruled, and yet that's the way it was. All you need do is consult _Memoirs of the Secret Services of John Mackey, Esq; During the Reigns of King William, Queen Anne, and King George I_ . Attempts to explain away what you'll find within are futile. It's absolutely clear; black Monarchs ruled Britain right up until the 18th century at least.
His mother's description is online and makes it clear.
@@artstation707 I was right when I replies before about Afrocentricism from you. Philippa of Hanault and her offspring, and much lighter skinned Charlotte.
I think someone mistook his attire as referenced in the painting you presented from your good research, as armour. BYW, excellent video. Love and appreciate your work. Q: Didn't Shakespeare describe RIII as a hunchback? What was discovered/confirmed was as you stated, he had scoliosis. That would indicate that Shakespeare's take, was not confirmed. But I could be wrong as to exactly how Shakespeare described RIII's condition. Thank you.