Praise your courage talking about mistakes and explaining the chain of events in a scientific way . Am sure you will fix it , can’t wait to see it running on a future video! Ty Eric.
Hi Eric, thanks for the concise diagnostic exam of your engine, after it was suffering such severe blow-by so early in its life. Look forward to your next update. Great channel, both entertaining and informative.
That sucks but it's really amazing of you coming back and explaining what happened and take the criticism instead of being ashamed to talk about it. That's what sets good honest people apart from the rest . Hope to see that truck running again soon.
Eric, definitely detonation damage - nothing else will crack ring lands like that. Look up inside the insulator of the spark plugs and you'll see little flecks of aluminum, that's the aluminum that went molten that came off the pistons. For those headers - Cut the header flanges between cyls. 1/3, 5/7, 2/4, and 6/8. This lets the tubes move or twist slightly when they're tightened and seat squarely against the head. Getting all four tubes flat at the flanges with a belt sander is absolute murder. Most SBC headers with a single flange for all four tubes leak sooner or later unless you cut the flanges - after the first couple times I ran into this a friend told me about cutting the flanges, I did from then on and never had the problem again.
I love your videos. This is the kind of stuff that happens when you’re building a vehicle. I Really appreciate your honesty. It sucks that you had to tear it down. But like you said all you can do now is fix it and move on. Great stuff Eric
I had an 89 chevy 1500 that the motor blew up (stock engine) in the winter of 2010.. I changed the oil a month before and I KNOW it had oil in it. We towed it home and the oil pan was empty... there was oil on the frame and engine, but also had grease buildup so oil wasn't that uncommon. I never figured out why it lost all the oil or where it went... no oil on my driveway or under my car... it TOTALLY makes sense that it blew out the dipstick, I noticed the dipstick was pushed out and oil was on the tube when I changed the oil, but young and dumb me didn't think anything of it. If one of the rings failed it would do the same thing... finally after 10 years i have closure... Thanks for making this video..
detonation 100% I always say it's better to go lower compression on the street I think your assessment is correct, your decision to go with dished pistons was the exact right way to deal with this it's exactly what I would have done I recently finished up a ford Clever build started with flat tops and edelbrock aluminum heads I ended up changing to a dished piston before starting the engine because it was around 11 to 1 and I did not want this problem you did a good job on this engine Eric I have no doubt the lower compression will solve your problem on the street with pump gas lower compression with more timing is always the right answer for safe drivability
Yes, but why? My BMW has 11:1 compression and is fine on 91 octane. Friend of mine has an E60 M5; 12:1 compression on 91 octane. Are these old Chevys too fragile to handle high compression?
@@computiNATEor you can run 14:1 on pump gas if you do it right.. its kinda pointless but possible.. static ratios mean nothing at the end of the day compared to dynamic ratios.. that combined with timing... less timing can actually heat things up, then you get into squish etc.. its probably due to a few factors.. maybe it was a bit lean with retarded timing.. heats up, in turn could heat up the plug.. lots of things at play.
I really like the strength of the information shared in your videos. You see, I told you I could tell that your videos were evolving and how it separates you from the rest of the pack. Well done Eric.
Love your style Eric! Yeah, I'm with you concerning hating to see a motor messed up like that. I'm sure most folks on this channel feel that way. Putting all the time and effort into making the best product you can, no matter if it's for yourself or a customer. Only for it to get tore up. But you got this brother! Have a good one and be safe out there 😆
@@ericthecarguyI know you said previously this wasn’t a race truck but I still have to ask why the four port injectors instead of a 12?? Just wondering
I think you're on point with what happened and with your solution. My only tip is to always remove oil pans before you turn the engine over on the engine stand. That way no shrapnel, if there is any, can fall "up" into your rotating assembly.
I just installed a centrifugal supercharger on my old 1990 K2500 Silverado. It was a killer addition to an already potent combination. You can roast the tires whenever you want! It's unreal. As soon as the tires get grip, you're off like a rocket! Good luck with Dad's truck. I've always loved this build.
Thanks Eric, lol you are a a great inspiration. Some of the best lessons in life come from your own mistakes, And some of the more valuable lessons I think come from watching others make mistakes. Accidental or not, something went wrong and we the RUclips world had an opportunity to learn. And you can bet we did. I rarely do heavy line work at my job, (GM dealer), but when I do there is always something I can reference back to either in your videos or from talking/watching the old timers do it for years. Literally if I had no work I would just watch them for hours or some times days and just ask questions about what there expecting to find. What they found, and why there removing what there moving. When I did my my first engine replacement on a 6.2 Denali, it took me 1 full day, that was with no prior experience removing that engine, but because I had watched it Be done so many times and I had the opportunity to ask so many questions, I felt like it was just to easy. I have you to thank Eric and of course all the vets that strictly to heavy line work for a living. To everyone watching and still in the “heavy learning” process, if you have the chance to watch someone and especially help them, do it. Seize every opportunity you can, the best way to learn is when your not trying to beat the time on flat rating. and just focusing on the lesson to be learned.
Thank you for sharing not only your successes, but also your failures! Nice to know that even the experts get it wrong and learn from their mistakes. This way maybe we can learn from yours also. Eric
I'm skeptical that the broken pistons resulted in the coolant in the crankcase. I would have a machine shop check that block for cracks. 11:1 is by no means 'too high' for a street car. If the truck is a daily driver, i would get it down to 9.5.
While this situation sucks for Eric having to lose a few nights of sleep and a few days of extra work in the shop, this is some of my favorite content you have produced to date. I have a 68 chevy stepside that I want to finish in the next few years and your video has made me want to go strictly OEM GM on an LM7 or LS motor w/ HP tuners for tuning instead of something else aftermarket.
I think you'll see that in next weeks video things turn out fine. This was really a communication issue between me and the machine shop. If I was aware the compression ratio was going to be 11:1 I never would have went there. Thanks for the comment.
THANK YOU for such a clear explanation of all that !! I learn so much from you, that would normally be over my head . It helps me know more about my '93 GMC Siera !!
Sorry it turned out like that. I'm a fan because you're honest and don't hide shit like this. I hope it turns out better when you put it together for the last time.
Sounds like the correct conclusion. Good call dropping the compression, better to leave a little power on the table than to be replacing parts all of the time. I remember an article from Hot Rod magazine in the 90's on a guy running a Nova with 14:1 compression in a drag car. He would daily the car, but to do so on pump gas (93 octane), he had to back the timing waaay down (to like 10-14 degrees IIRC) and had the biggest rad in LA in a street car.
Thank you for sharing the troubles with Dads Truck engine, lessons learned are sometimes hard lessons but always ask questions about the engine part combinations and will they work together for the desired results. Built our own dirt track motors for years and sometimes things go wrong. Watched many of your videos and learn something every time, Thanks.
You win some you lose some. Like many of us (and you) have said a project is never finished, and you're always learning something. Thanks for the videos eric, definitely have helped me and will help me when I go to do my build.
@@ericthecarguy You're very welcome, I've lost count on how many times a video of yours has saved my butt. So keep up the good work eric. You're doing awesome
That was painful to watch and honestly, I have never seen the physical damage as a result of lean burn and detonation. This is a great video. Thanks for sharing this with us.
I had a kindle a similar problem years ago on a chevy 350 I changed heads because of bad valve guides I swapped them out for rebuilts I put the new heads on ran in to the same problem with detonation long story short turned out to be 305 heads with smaller chambers no damage to the engine just extra work swapped them out everything was good just lost time but taught me a lesson now I check things more thoroughly good luck with everything. Ed
I was thinking detonation issue too this is why a run stand is good break in and verify any issues. Shows how important it is when you build to make sure you think and double check before you build . Even a simple thing as shaving and extra amount can change things. It’s sad this happened because it’s no a return and more time and parts to get it right. Great video Eric. I think your dead on with your diagnosis.
One need to consider IVC. Compression ratio is the opposite of ring gap described like this. Too much and you know it, to little and everybody knows it. (Because the engine gets broken.)
Back here after few years later, after I lost interest on this side of cars, but now that I actually have my own car now, the interest is strong and back! Glad to see you are still rocking it with the awesome videos and it seems like you have grown an upside down christmas tree since the last time hahahaha
. Thanks for all the years of helping me learn something new. Not related to this video but I'm currently doing a j30 timing belt. Thanks to you it's been super easy.
I see a lot of comments using the term "pre-ignition", which is actually an event caused by a hot spot in the cylinder lighting the mixture before the spark occurs. Detonation occurs when pressure in the area ahead of the normally advancing flame becomes too high, and hot, for the fuel to continue burning smoothly, and it "pops" very hard. Hot spots in the cylinder make the problem worse. If it happens early enough in the burn, you can have two separate flames meeting in a big bang. I don't know which scenario makes the bigger "pop", but I'd guess that the single, "end of the flame" pop would be the worst.
Thanks Eric. The pistons are cast hypereutectic, which means (I think) that there is a greater amount of silicon in the aluminum alloy that can be dissolved at solid temperatures. I'm guessing from my metallurgical years that the excess aluminum is interstitial and thus a great stress raiser which would perhaps be the source of that axial land cracking. It's all a guess on my part but I do know that heat treatment of aluminum alloys is very trickey and expensive, and thus frequently done incorrectly.
9.5:1 compression ratio is perfect for good reliability on the street & pump gas....IMHO...and never go past 10:1 unless you want misbehavior & the associated issues. Too much cam “overlap” will exasperate those kind of issues too so I stay pretty conservative with cam choices.
I think you are on the right track. 11 to 1 is to high even with aluminum heads. I try to stay at that 10 to 1 or just under to be safe. I have heard of people going to 10.5 to 1 but for a safe reliable engine 10 to 1 seems to be a safe combination for a small block.
I ran 91 octane in my 350 with 11.5:1 compression and it ran great. I lived in high altitude, dry, and hot so there is my biggest difference really. My 350 pretty much got the same build
11:1 compression is too high for pump gas on a small block. Edit: I understand a lot of modern engines can run over 10:1 compression and not have a problem. But understand modern engines have knock sensors that can detect knock and back off the timing. Most modern engines also use DI which allows much finer fuel control which allows high compression without detonation. Mr. Eric's truck engine is a small block chevy V8 that (as far as I know) does not have knock sensors or modern design elements that allow high compression.
"11:1 compression is to high" for a normal / everyday car For racing cars it is quite safe compression (still is), but such engines do not live very long. Everything above 9.5: 1 is (or may be) "too much", especially for V8 engines not designed for racing. (replacing the main components with "better equivalents" does not solve all and every problems) Some Japanese and European engines can work 10: 1 compression without problems (these are the factory parameters), and we can even increase compression above 11: 1. And the engine won't break down after traveling 1,000 miles (kilometers?). Such engines use variable valve timing and direct injection, and a few other tricks to reduce detonation at high or low engine speed. Not every/any engine of this "good" model will withstand, and not always (in all conditions). In my opinion, the key is to use VVT (some type). Old engines do not have this, and therefore any increase in compression is much more difficult than in newer engines (Honda - for example).
Shane Broussard well not really. He should have 10.6:1 because the blocks not zero decked. You can easily get by with 11:1 with aluminum heads and a decent duration cam
Andreas Maltcke 10:5-11:1 is safe on aluminum headed engines that have a decent size cam or gasoline direct injection. High duration cam bleeds off some cranking compression because the valve closing and opening events. Anything under 200 cranking compression psi with the popular psi and afr will be good
@AliasSLH I'd be curious to understand the difference between cylinder count / rev range impacts compression numbers; I'd imagine the biggest issue would be heat and thus tuning & timing are big factors. Larger engines will be more subject to heat than smaller, volume ^3 while surface area is ^2 (volume increases faster than size). I've driven 6 and 8 cylinder cars and pedal down, you can watch the heat build... never seen that with my teeny Honda motors. More to why big engines have lower revs than just balance and heavy bits.
Eric, One thing that should be mentioned, this is a great video by the way, I noticed you were using 'floating pin' pistons, and that you had the cir-clips installed. In one of the shots of the pistons, #8 I think, I caught a potential issue and wanted to make sure everyone was aware: best practices for the piston pin cir-clips, when used, is to make sure the opening in the clip is pointing at either 12:00 (straight up) or 6:00 relative to the piston travel. At higher RPM the clips can actually deform due to the rapid deceleration and acceleration of the piston as it reaches TDC/BDC and can pop out of the lands, causing instant engine damage. And yes, I too have noticed the pungent odor when removing the head bolts... lol
I'd say you're on the money with the compression ratio. 11:1 for pump gas is high if you don't have the supporting tune / lubricant / fuel additives etc. Best of luck with the new pistons *fingers crossed*
I had a 429Ford engine with 11:1 compression and I had to pull the initial timing back just like you said to keep it from pinging like mad. I also ran 104+ in it because in a big block I couldn't live with the gas mileage with the timing cut back to zero. Of course that was when 104+ was $3.75 a bottle. I have seen engines with excessive detonation and agree with you. Good luck.
After teardown, did you make a note of where the ring gaps ended up? Also, when I used a 4.030 ring compressor/piston installer, I never pound/tap the pistons thru it--I use a wooden hammer's handle and I slowly push the piston thru the ring with the journal at BDC, guiding the rod around the journal. You did the BDC stuff correctly, but I winced a bit watching you tap it with that orange mallet. After cleaning up the bores, take a ring, it can be new or used, and just push it in past the area that had carbon, say 3/8ths deep in the cylinder equidistant all around, and check the ring end gap; then take your compressor ring tool and set it on something flat and push the same piston ring down all the way to the bottom with a piston. Then flip it over and check the ring gap on the same piston ring with your feeler gauges and see if there's a difference. if the gap of the ring when in the cylinder is less than when in the tool, then the ring could be getting caught up on the top of the cylinder and pounding/tapping the piston could have stressed it. the gap of the ring should be equal or less in the bottom of the tool than in the cylinder. Hope this helps.
I spent months LS swapping my truck, get it running only to have very low oil pressure at warm idle. My first guess is the pick up tube o-ring is pinched but I suspect it’s warn bearings causing the oil pressure drop. So I feel your pain when you say, all I want to do is drive it!!
I guess I'm curious about how these events have impacted your desire to be a builder. You were very excited about the prospect of heading that way, but the issues you've had with the engines and audience with these two projects have likely altered your opinion. That said, growth is painful and expensive. I've always respected your approach to working through issues and being really honest about when a mistake is made. I am curious for your thought process on where this puts ETCG as a channel and where you are with all of this.
Like you said, "growth is painful and expensive". I love building and plan to continue with it. For me, this was partly on me for not asking the right questions. In the future, I'll be sure to ask about the compression ratio BEFORE I blow my engine up.
@@ericthecarguy haha, knowing what questions is the hardest part. I installed my 91's suspension 6 times before I got it right. By the time I was replacing the 97's, I was done in 2-3 hours😂; full disclosure, I still missed torque on two bolts😞.
Hi Eric, Thank you. I am in Toronto Canada. Love the dirty job. Cause , I retired as a aircraft mechanic at Air Canada. same dirty job and Fun. Take care !
ck lee Except in Canada mechanics retire. Here with health care... I have been a career mechanic. Worked in 7 different shops over the years. Never seen a mechanic retire.
Higher octane fuel my friend, you have a high compression engine, the higher the compression the more heat you create. As long as stay below 12:1 compression, 93 should be fine without pinging.
Nice video Eric. I feel your pain. In 1999 I lost an LT1 engine in my 94 Z28. The engine dumped oil all over the bottom of the car, luckily I made it home. Found 3 broken pistons, broke at the ring lands like yours. I put too much timing in the motor and maybe too much boost, my mistake.
Gday Eric , i think your spot on with your autopsy , but one thing i noticed, and from my experience , those vortec blocks are meant to run a coolent bypass pipe from the inlet manifold to the waterpump . For some reason these blocks are notorious for getting hot in the back half of them without the bypass fitted to them . This may account for the back half of the engine looking worse for wear perhaps than the front .being hotter may have bought about the preignition problem earlier than the front . Just my 2 cents worth . Cheers from Australia and good luck .
I would think that 93 would be enough? I wonder if there was some inaccuracy in the timing somehow? Either in distributor set up or something with the ecu. Like it was running much more timing then it claimed
Did a similar build myself Eric. Mine was less expensive I used iron vortec 062 heads KB claimer pistons stock crank, 6" rods, air gap intake and a quick fuel 650 DP carb. Built my 700r4 to match it also. I run a cheap mr.gasket dipstick. My pickup is 1989 c1500 swb. Great channels, great video. Sorry this happened but i know itll get fixed up.👍
I hadn't heard about LSPI before your post, but after looking at the damaged caused by the phonomenon, I think you hit the piston on the head, there mate!
zeroyon223 it’s a product of high compressi n and hot spots in the cylinder. I have never seen ring lands blow up like this during regular detonation on a N/A engine.
@zeroyon223 correct. LSPI is a mix of low rpm, high cylinder pressure, and excessive blow by or carbon build up on valves that ignites the fuel mix before the spark plug actually fires. Basically stay out of boost at low rpms. LSPI is also mainly common on small displacement 3 and 4 cylinders where the stock turbo is so small that itll make heaps of boost nearly close to idle rpms if you dont shift right.
I completely agree with your diagnosis, I once built a 440 for street use as a teenager and it was the first car engine I rebuilt, I made the mistake (on purpose because I didn’t know any better) of setting the thing up for about 11:1 and not only did I have too much pinging with pump gas, I was having difficulty with 100LL. 11:1 is no bueno and with today’s shit/gas even 10:1 may be rough.
11:1 isn't that high, especially using aluminum heads. I still don't know what pump gas means. 87 octane? 89? 91? 93? I guess for an old-timey SBC 11:1 is quite high. Funny how the modern V8 engines run numbers like that or higher on just premium pump gas.
11:1 is the higher end of the gasoline ratios used. Diesels start about 14:1. “Pump Gas” usually refers to the standard gasoline you buy at any gas station.
Great example of when you are doing engine disassembly to remove the oil pan before you rotate engine over and dump all the "pieces" onto the rotating assembly
The coat hanger reminded me of when I had a rotted ground on a Jetta. Home Depot to the rescue, put the ground for a house in it. Went to a mechanic for stuff I couldn't fix, she was surprised to see that.
If it's that simple, why not even consider the comp ratio? I mean, if it 's that important why wouldn't it be the first thing a machinist asks or advises on? Even more basic, why isn't there a spreadsheet showing comp ratios vs gas type? I'm thinking there's more to it than type of gas.
Many years ago, an old mate of mine took his Ford Escort MK2 to his local dyno to have his twin DCOE Webbers "Set Up".. Having just rebuilt the Ford "Pinto" 2 litre OHC motor... The Bloke doing the dyno was known to be a "Bit of a Knob!" and not very good opperating his machinery! (lol!) But.... Being we were situated in deepest Wales, its was the only dyno here at the time! So... The car was strapped down, started up and imediately the throttle was pinned! The thing was screaming at umpteen thousand RPM's and through the ear bleeding mechanical abuse one could hear the distant crackle of the dreaded "Death Rattle!" Then... There was a loud BANG! Burned oil infused smoke filling the room as the rollers slowed down until the only thing to be heard was the crackling of burning fluids.... On inspection... The whole of number one cylinder including head and crankshaft had decided they had had enough and parted company with the rest of the engine block.... The only things keeping them together was the rocker cover, rather knackered camshaft, inlet manifold and sump! Once they were removed the thing just fell to bits!! You knocked the nail on the head with your diagnosis Eric... Comp to high, Timing out and crap pump gas (Its Petrol over here!)...(and we have "Super Unleaded!")....(lol.!)... Cheers Mate..
@@Rotttman Alright, I'll bite. As I recall, the Fairmont had detonation issues. The MINI, if I'm not mistaken, had assembly issues. Not that I'm judging. As a former MINI victim (X2!). They are not simple or logic cars to work on. Nor were they well engineered in the first place. I guess one possible take away is that engine building starts with design, and that maybe putting together an engine is something better done in a shop devoted to such things.
@@Rotttman Eric seems susceptible to 'mission creep'! The Fairmont was once a nice little old lady coupe, that was going to get a 5.0. Ends up as turbocharged race car. Nothing wrong with that, but if I were doing a long distance cruiser, you could design one a lot simpler, cheaper and better suited to the way he uses it. And just as fast. Not in any way a critique of the build- it was an interesting trip! I would not be surprised to leave him my lawn tractor, and find it with an intercooler, running race gas.
I watched your videos on the engine build. Considering all the care and your knowledge of engines, if I am ever considering a re-power on a vehicle, I will definitely stick with a crate engine.
Call it a heads up on crate engines - the only real assurance is a warranty. I've pulled down numerous crate, often they're built from remanufactured parts - reground cranks, overbored blocks, remachined connecting rods etc. nothing any better than what went into this engine, and usually not as good. I'm talking about G.M. and Ford crate engines too, not some off-brand. I made my living as an engine machine shop and engine remanufacturer as well as high performance/race engine builder and seen quite a few things that weren't what they were sold as or supposed to be. I've opened up fresh out of the crate engines (I don't arbitrarily trust ANYONE'S work - I inspect new parts before using them as well) and found "trash" in the pans, chunks of gasket, pieces of shop rags, metal shavings, even cranks with sludge in the crankpins and the holes in the counterweights from poor cleaning. I'm not saying all crate engines are this way I'm saying some are. If you go that way, inspect what you get before you install it. Better to inspect and only have to put it in once.
Yep spot on detonation, compressions to high, ive made the same mistake myself that’s how I learned the two ways of designing the power you want, 1 build and spec the engine around the camshaft such is what determines your power band. Or 2 choose a cam with appropriate overlap to get the dynamic compression where it needs to be to accommodate the fuel being used. Depends on what you start with . Thanks for the great videos man keep it up we are binge watching you in quarantine 😝
Hence the reason I make these videos. To help you avoid costly mistakes like this. The take away here is make sure you have a compression ratio that plays nice with pump gas. For an engine like this without a knock sensor, you should be fine with 10:1. Just be sure to only run premium fuel.
patx35 True. I was running 93 octane at the time, which likely isn't enough for an 11:1 compression ratio. I would not have run a compression ratio that high had I known about it. An 11:1 engine would run fine on race gas though.
@@WickedProxy E85 is not needed on a relatively low compression SBC. This is all in the tune, this is why any half way decent tuner will start low on timing and sneak up on it.
Stock deck height is 9.020. Rebuild/overbore pistons are 9.000. This is so you can specifically deck your block and bring it back to 0 during a rebuild. The real question is ; 'what is your overall quench?' Meaning with the piston in the hole and your head gasket installed and you check each piston @TDC(top and bottom of the block for rock) what will be the end number? There's volumes written on the effects of having too much room between the piston and the flat part of your head. That gap if its too big will trap fuel which will wait to be ignited and pre ignite the next time around. Smaller is bettter. Never add a thicker head gasket or 'shims' to decrease compression. Ive gone as low as .032 in an SBC. All depends on if its a cast crank(they actually bend less)or forged, whats your redline, what are you doing with the motor , whats the overall compression, what fuel , yadda yadda.
Eric I love your videos and was quite surprised that you had problems with this engine. You are so far into it now that I would go a couple of extra steps just for my peace of mind if it were me. I would pull that front cover off and check that all is well with the timing between the cam and crankshaft. It would add a little bit more work at the end of the day but I'd certainly sleep better for having put my eyes on those timing marks. Could have gotten a bad chain or something else that skewed the timing that you set. I will look forward to seeing where you go with this build. Best wishes for a bulletproof assembly.
I actually degreed the cam during assembly. ruclips.net/video/h7qowMqZXRA/видео.html Be sure to tune in next week to see how it all works out. Thanks for the comment.
@@ericthecarguy I saw that but being this close to the front, I would still have had to look. I am a bit OCD admittedly but I could not have resisted, crap happens & maybe I got a timing chain that was less than perfect. I am looking forward to all of your videos.
The combustion chamber isn't the right shape to handle that high a compression. Slightly dished pistons would lower compression a bit and improve squish to take care of it.
I kept saying detonation. When you said pinging, that was it. An engine with bust its self to pieces. I had a snowmobile engine detonate like that. The aluminum pistons hate detonation like that. In this case, it was timing for sure. The sad part, it was set to factory specs. I found out that it was changed somewhere. I had one engine snap the crankshaft outside the engine, at the clutch. The guy over built the engine and the stock crank couldnt handle it. You are a bigger man admitting you did it instead of blaming parts( I get tired of hearing that) . I would love to work on an engine that clean. Sad to see what happened but live and learn. Like you said, just get it fixed and move on. Yes, I have screwed up a few engines in my day. They were always my own and always because of some thing I did. Yes. I have gotten bad parts. it dies happen. I always research things really well before blaming parts. As far as opening an engine up to seat the rings, I cringe just thinking about that. Every manual I have ever read says to break them in easy. Mabe I am wrong, mabe it's just me bring careful. I know in all my years rebuilding snowmobile engines, I would break an engine in for customers so they wouldn't rag the piss out of them , blowing them up then blaming me. I worked for a shop that taught me that because the owner had a guy go out back his shop and totally destroy a brand new engine because he felt he had to hammer on it. Then he came in all pissed blaming the owner.
Agree with your assessment. Pump gas quality is way Varied from pump to pump and time of the year and what smog specs in your area. The coolant does not flow well in the rear of the motor. The right side is help by flow going through the heater core. Left side just dead head against intake. Should drill intake or back of head to allow flow back to front of intake. Lower temps in rear on engine to help spark knock a little bit.
What did he do wrong? Eric was pretty vague and any performance engine shop is going to err on what makes more power. Pump gas can mean 91 octane winter swill or 104 unleaded, depending on where you are located, entirely possible Eric could have gotten some bad fuel too. 11:1 SBC's on pump gas in a street vehicle is fine but that means you are dumping in octane boosters or buying specialty gas.
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Praise your courage talking about mistakes and explaining the chain of events in a scientific way . Am sure you will fix it , can’t wait to see it running on a future video! Ty Eric.
Hi, ERIC, Have U heard of this new fuel they have? Its called Premium!
Hi Eric, thanks for the concise diagnostic exam of your engine, after it was suffering such severe blow-by so early in its life. Look forward to your next update. Great channel, both entertaining and informative.
Thank you!
That sucks but it's really amazing of you coming back and explaining what happened and take the criticism instead of being ashamed to talk about it. That's what sets good honest people apart from the rest . Hope to see that truck running again soon.
Eric,
definitely detonation damage - nothing else will crack ring lands like that.
Look up inside the insulator of the spark plugs and you'll see little flecks of aluminum, that's the aluminum that went molten that came off the pistons.
For those headers -
Cut the header flanges between cyls. 1/3, 5/7, 2/4, and 6/8.
This lets the tubes move or twist slightly when they're tightened and seat squarely against the head.
Getting all four tubes flat at the flanges with a belt sander is absolute murder.
Most SBC headers with a single flange for all four tubes leak sooner or later unless you cut the flanges - after the first couple times I ran into this a friend told me about cutting the flanges, I did from then on and never had the problem again.
I love your videos. This is the kind of stuff that happens when you’re building a vehicle. I Really appreciate your honesty. It sucks that you had to tear it down. But like you said all you can do now is fix it and move on. Great stuff Eric
I had an 89 chevy 1500 that the motor blew up (stock engine) in the winter of 2010.. I changed the oil a month before and I KNOW it had oil in it. We towed it home and the oil pan was empty... there was oil on the frame and engine, but also had grease buildup so oil wasn't that uncommon. I never figured out why it lost all the oil or where it went... no oil on my driveway or under my car... it TOTALLY makes sense that it blew out the dipstick, I noticed the dipstick was pushed out and oil was on the tube when I changed the oil, but young and dumb me didn't think anything of it. If one of the rings failed it would do the same thing... finally after 10 years i have closure... Thanks for making this video..
Love that phrase always; "be safe, have fun, stay dirty"
detonation 100% I always say it's better to go lower compression on the street I think your assessment is correct, your decision to go with dished pistons was the exact right way to deal with this it's exactly what I would have done I recently finished up a ford Clever build started with flat tops and edelbrock aluminum heads I ended up changing to a dished piston before starting the engine because it was around 11 to 1 and I did not want this problem you did a good job on this engine Eric I have no doubt the lower compression will solve your problem on the street with pump gas lower compression with more timing is always the right answer for safe drivability
That damage is 100% pre ignition or pinging
Yes, but why? My BMW has 11:1 compression and is fine on 91 octane. Friend of mine has an E60 M5; 12:1 compression on 91 octane. Are these old Chevys too fragile to handle high compression?
@@computiNATEor Modern engine designs and GDI can run a lot more compression than an old small block Chevy can without having knock issues.
@@RobertHancock1 Both of the aforementioned cars are port injection. Is it a 32V vs 16V thing?
@@computiNATEor 91 is the minimum required on BMW, Mini, VW, Audi and most of the high compression engines
@@computiNATEor you can run 14:1 on pump gas if you do it right.. its kinda pointless but possible.. static ratios mean nothing at the end of the day compared to dynamic ratios.. that combined with timing... less timing can actually heat things up, then you get into squish etc.. its probably due to a few factors.. maybe it was a bit lean with retarded timing.. heats up, in turn could heat up the plug.. lots of things at play.
I really like the strength of the information shared in your videos. You see, I told you I could tell that your videos were evolving and how it separates you from the rest of the pack. Well done Eric.
Thanks!
Love your style Eric! Yeah, I'm with you concerning hating to see a motor messed up like that. I'm sure most folks on this channel feel that way. Putting all the time and effort into making the best product you can, no matter if it's for yourself or a customer. Only for it to get tore up. But you got this brother! Have a good one and be safe out there 😆
Thank you for that comment.
@@ericthecarguyI know you said previously this wasn’t a race truck but I still have to ask why the four port injectors instead of a 12?? Just wondering
ETCG just letting you know that I highly appreciate your knowledge, and explanations! All done in a laid back pleasant manner! Nuff respect!
Would be good to see the engine builder's input on the wear/damage.
@Alex Eidenier obviously outsourced some of the work like the machinist. Should have triple checked the /dynamic/ compression ratio.
No mechanic issues, the damage is done by bad tuning.
@@VndNvwYvvSvv the machining shouldn't have too much to do with it, usually the heads is the biggest failure of the machining process.
I think you're on point with what happened and with your solution. My only tip is to always remove oil pans before you turn the engine over on the engine stand. That way no shrapnel, if there is any, can fall "up" into your rotating assembly.
Good tip. I'll be doing that next time.
Sometimes you just smack right into that old learning curve.
Good thing now is the rebuild is going to be sweet!
I just installed a centrifugal supercharger on my old 1990 K2500 Silverado. It was a killer addition to an already potent combination. You can roast the tires whenever you want! It's unreal. As soon as the tires get grip, you're off like a rocket!
Good luck with Dad's truck. I've always loved this build.
Damn that’s a kick to the nuts, but at least you caught it when you did. I can only imagine that it could’ve been a lot worse.
Thanks Eric, lol you are a a great inspiration. Some of the best lessons in life come from your own mistakes, And some of the more valuable lessons I think come from watching others make mistakes. Accidental or not, something went wrong and we the RUclips world had an opportunity to learn. And you can bet we did. I rarely do heavy line work at my job, (GM dealer), but when I do there is always something I can reference back to either in your videos or from talking/watching the old timers do it for years. Literally if I had no work I would just watch them for hours or some times days and just ask questions about what there expecting to find. What they found, and why there removing what there moving. When I did my my first engine replacement on a 6.2 Denali, it took me 1 full day, that was with no prior experience removing that engine, but because I had watched it Be done so many times and I had the opportunity to ask so many questions, I felt like it was just to easy. I have you to thank Eric and of course all the vets that strictly to heavy line work for a living. To everyone watching and still in the “heavy learning” process, if you have the chance to watch someone and especially help them, do it. Seize every opportunity you can, the best way to learn is when your not trying to beat the time on flat rating. and just focusing on the lesson to be learned.
Thank you very much for that comment. I really appreciate it. Good luck with your career!
I love the information that I get from you and you make a good teacher keep cranking them wrenches
Thanks!
@@ericthecarguy Sorry for your loss. I know you put a lot of time and money into her. Hope you get it all together again. Thanks for your videos!👍
Thank you for sharing not only your successes, but also your failures! Nice to know that even the experts get it wrong and learn from their mistakes. This way maybe we can learn from yours also.
Eric
I'm skeptical that the broken pistons resulted in the coolant in the crankcase. I would have a machine shop check that block for cracks. 11:1 is by no means 'too high' for a street car. If the truck is a daily driver, i would get it down to 9.5.
While this situation sucks for Eric having to lose a few nights of sleep and a few days of extra work in the shop, this is some of my favorite content you have produced to date. I have a 68 chevy stepside that I want to finish in the next few years and your video has made me want to go strictly OEM GM on an LM7 or LS motor w/ HP tuners for tuning instead of something else aftermarket.
I think you'll see that in next weeks video things turn out fine. This was really a communication issue between me and the machine shop. If I was aware the compression ratio was going to be 11:1 I never would have went there. Thanks for the comment.
THANK YOU for such a clear explanation of all that !! I learn so much from you, that would normally be over my head . It helps me know more about my '93 GMC Siera !!
Comments like these are my favorites. Thank you!
Sorry it turned out like that. I'm a fan because you're honest and don't hide shit like this. I hope it turns out better when you put it together for the last time.
You are a Great Technician and Teacher! Thanks for the video Eric!
Thank you!
Sounds like the correct conclusion. Good call dropping the compression, better to leave a little power on the table than to be replacing parts all of the time.
I remember an article from Hot Rod magazine in the 90's on a guy running a Nova with 14:1 compression in a drag car. He would daily the car, but to do so on pump gas (93 octane), he had to back the timing waaay down (to like 10-14 degrees IIRC) and had the biggest rad in LA in a street car.
Thank you for sharing the troubles with Dads Truck engine, lessons learned are sometimes hard lessons but always ask questions about the engine part combinations and will they work together for the desired results. Built our own dirt track motors for years and sometimes things go wrong. Watched many of your videos and learn something every time, Thanks.
You win some you lose some. Like many of us (and you) have said a project is never finished, and you're always learning something. Thanks for the videos eric, definitely have helped me and will help me when I go to do my build.
Helping my viewers better understand this stuff is my goal. Thank you for the comment.
@@ericthecarguy You're very welcome, I've lost count on how many times a video of yours has saved my butt. So keep up the good work eric. You're doing awesome
I don't know if it's already been said, but when you take a good look at cylinder 5 it looks also broken .
That was painful to watch and honestly, I have never seen the physical damage as a result of lean burn and detonation. This is a great video. Thanks for sharing this with us.
hey eric i think your spot on with the engine problem. curious what octane gas you were running.
I had a kindle a similar problem years ago on a chevy 350 I changed heads because of bad valve guides I swapped them out for rebuilts I put the new heads on ran in to the same problem with detonation long story short turned out to be 305 heads with smaller chambers no damage to the engine just extra work swapped them out everything was good just lost time but taught me a lesson now I check things more thoroughly good luck with everything. Ed
5:03 -- "There's always goo." Eric the Car Guy, 2020
I was thinking detonation issue too this is why a run stand is good break in and verify any issues. Shows how important it is when you build to make sure you think and double check before you build . Even a simple thing as shaving and extra amount can change things. It’s sad this happened because it’s no a return and more time and parts to get it right. Great video Eric. I think your dead on with your diagnosis.
10:1 is a great compression to have on the street. It’ll behave much better than 11:1. Good luck Eric!
One need to consider IVC. Compression ratio is the opposite of ring gap described like this. Too much and you know it, to little and everybody knows it. (Because the engine gets broken.)
Back here after few years later, after I lost interest on this side of cars, but now that I actually have my own car now, the interest is strong and back!
Glad to see you are still rocking it with the awesome videos and it seems like you have grown an upside down christmas tree since the last time hahahaha
Hi, It's nice to know that I'm not the only who calls for there misplaced tools as if there a lost puppy.
. Thanks for all the years of helping me learn something new. Not related to this video but I'm currently doing a j30 timing belt. Thanks to you it's been super easy.
I'm happy to help. Thank YOU for the comment and for watching.
I had to explain to my wife that the expression “Beat the snot out of the pistons” was a technical term.
I see a lot of comments using the term "pre-ignition", which is actually an event caused by a hot spot in the cylinder lighting the mixture before the spark occurs.
Detonation occurs when pressure in the area ahead of the normally advancing flame becomes too high, and hot, for the fuel to continue burning smoothly, and it "pops" very hard. Hot spots in the cylinder make the problem worse. If it happens early enough in the burn, you can have two separate flames meeting in a big bang. I don't know which scenario makes the bigger "pop", but I'd guess that the single, "end of the flame" pop would be the worst.
This has been a learning experience for me. Thanks for the information.
Thanks Eric.
The pistons are cast hypereutectic, which means (I think) that there is a greater amount of silicon in the aluminum alloy that can be dissolved at solid temperatures. I'm guessing from my metallurgical years that the excess aluminum is interstitial and thus a great stress raiser which would perhaps be the source of that axial land cracking.
It's all a guess on my part but I do know that heat treatment of aluminum alloys is very trickey and expensive, and thus frequently done incorrectly.
9.5:1 compression ratio is perfect for good reliability on the street & pump gas....IMHO...and never go past 10:1 unless you want misbehavior & the associated issues. Too much cam “overlap” will exasperate those kind of issues too so I stay pretty conservative with cam choices.
more overlap bleeds off the excess pressure...if you want to go over 10:1 you need a bigger cam
I think you are on the right track. 11 to 1 is to high even with aluminum heads. I try to stay at that 10 to 1 or just under to be safe. I have heard of people going to 10.5 to 1 but for a safe reliable engine 10 to 1 seems to be a safe combination for a small block.
Great video . This is the tech stuff we like to see!!!
I’ve always liked Eric but my respect for him has now gone through the roof!
Something got hungry in that engine and had a feast on the pistons
and the pitting on some of the cylinder walls
I ran 91 octane in my 350 with 11.5:1 compression and it ran great. I lived in high altitude, dry, and hot so there is my biggest difference really. My 350 pretty much got the same build
High altitude is the key to your success.
Your pistons may have been different (were yours dished) and the combustion chamber shape in the heads can make all the difference at higher CRs.
If you'd have done that here in Houston (sea-level, high heat and humidity) your results would've been much different, lol.
11:1 compression is too high for pump gas on a small block.
Edit: I understand a lot of modern engines can run over 10:1 compression and not have a problem. But understand modern engines have knock sensors that can detect knock and back off the timing. Most modern engines also use DI which allows much finer fuel control which allows high compression without detonation.
Mr. Eric's truck engine is a small block chevy V8 that (as far as I know) does not have knock sensors or modern design elements that allow high compression.
I agree.
"11:1 compression is to high"
for a normal / everyday car
For racing cars it is quite safe compression (still is), but such engines do not live very long.
Everything above 9.5: 1 is (or may be) "too much", especially for V8 engines not designed for racing.
(replacing the main components with "better equivalents" does not solve all and every problems)
Some Japanese and European engines can work 10: 1 compression without problems (these are the factory parameters), and we can even increase compression above 11: 1. And the engine won't break down after traveling 1,000 miles (kilometers?).
Such engines use variable valve timing and direct injection, and a few other tricks to reduce detonation at high or low engine speed.
Not every/any engine of this "good" model will withstand, and not always (in all conditions).
In my opinion, the key is to use VVT (some type). Old engines do not have this, and therefore any increase in compression is much more difficult than in newer engines (Honda - for example).
Shane Broussard well not really. He should have 10.6:1 because the blocks not zero decked. You can easily get by with 11:1 with aluminum heads and a decent duration cam
Andreas Maltcke 10:5-11:1 is safe on aluminum headed engines that have a decent size cam or gasoline direct injection. High duration cam bleeds off some cranking compression because the valve closing and opening events. Anything under 200 cranking compression psi with the popular psi and afr will be good
@AliasSLH I'd be curious to understand the difference between cylinder count / rev range impacts compression numbers; I'd imagine the biggest issue would be heat and thus tuning & timing are big factors.
Larger engines will be more subject to heat than smaller, volume ^3 while surface area is ^2 (volume increases faster than size). I've driven 6 and 8 cylinder cars and pedal down, you can watch the heat build... never seen that with my teeny Honda motors. More to why big engines have lower revs than just balance and heavy bits.
Eric, One thing that should be mentioned, this is a great video by the way, I noticed you were using 'floating pin' pistons, and that you had the cir-clips installed. In one of the shots of the pistons, #8 I think, I caught a potential issue and wanted to make sure everyone was aware: best practices for the piston pin cir-clips, when used, is to make sure the opening in the clip is pointing at either 12:00 (straight up) or 6:00 relative to the piston travel. At higher RPM the clips can actually deform due to the rapid deceleration and acceleration of the piston as it reaches TDC/BDC and can pop out of the lands, causing instant engine damage. And yes, I too have noticed the pungent odor when removing the head bolts... lol
Thank you, for the clear explanation of the "expected" process.
You could just we're going to use different pistons.
I'd say you're on the money with the compression ratio. 11:1 for pump gas is high if you don't have the supporting tune / lubricant / fuel additives etc. Best of luck with the new pistons *fingers crossed*
Thank you!
I would definitely say to ditch the high compression. Stay safe and knock free with safe power on lower compression. More close to stock.
Stock sucks
I'm astonished ... I was under the impression that detonation was only damaging if it was prolonged. Didn't know so much damage could happen so fast.
Great video Eric! I love the concise diagnosis
I had a 429Ford engine with 11:1 compression and I had to pull the initial timing back just like you said to keep it from pinging like mad. I also ran 104+ in it because in a big block I couldn't live with the gas mileage with the timing cut back to zero. Of course that was when 104+ was $3.75 a bottle. I have seen engines with excessive detonation and agree with you. Good luck.
"There's always goo"
-- My son, the brain surgeon...
After teardown, did you make a note of where the ring gaps ended up? Also, when I used a 4.030 ring compressor/piston installer, I never pound/tap the pistons thru it--I use a wooden hammer's handle and I slowly push the piston thru the ring with the journal at BDC, guiding the rod around the journal. You did the BDC stuff correctly, but I winced a bit watching you tap it with that orange mallet. After cleaning up the bores, take a ring, it can be new or used, and just push it in past the area that had carbon, say 3/8ths deep in the cylinder equidistant all around, and check the ring end gap; then take your compressor ring tool and set it on something flat and push the same piston ring down all the way to the bottom with a piston. Then flip it over and check the ring gap on the same piston ring with your feeler gauges and see if there's a difference. if the gap of the ring when in the cylinder is less than when in the tool, then the ring could be getting caught up on the top of the cylinder and pounding/tapping the piston could have stressed it. the gap of the ring should be equal or less in the bottom of the tool than in the cylinder. Hope this helps.
I presume those were moly rings? Because if they were cast iron, I'd expect to see many broken pieces of rings.
I spent months LS swapping my truck, get it running only to have very low oil pressure at warm idle. My first guess is the pick up tube o-ring is pinched but I suspect it’s warn bearings causing the oil pressure drop. So I feel your pain when you say, all I want to do is drive it!!
I guess I'm curious about how these events have impacted your desire to be a builder. You were very excited about the prospect of heading that way, but the issues you've had with the engines and audience with these two projects have likely altered your opinion.
That said, growth is painful and expensive. I've always respected your approach to working through issues and being really honest about when a mistake is made.
I am curious for your thought process on where this puts ETCG as a channel and where you are with all of this.
Like you said, "growth is painful and expensive". I love building and plan to continue with it. For me, this was partly on me for not asking the right questions. In the future, I'll be sure to ask about the compression ratio BEFORE I blow my engine up.
@@ericthecarguy haha, knowing what questions is the hardest part. I installed my 91's suspension 6 times before I got it right. By the time I was replacing the 97's, I was done in 2-3 hours😂; full disclosure, I still missed torque on two bolts😞.
Hi Eric, Thank you. I am in Toronto Canada. Love the dirty job. Cause , I retired as a aircraft mechanic at Air Canada. same dirty job and Fun. Take care !
ck lee
Except in Canada mechanics retire.
Here with health care... I have been a career mechanic. Worked in 7 different shops over the years.
Never seen a mechanic retire.
@@fastinradfordable You are right. Mechanic never retire . But, in teamsters union. have to follow the rules. No choice.
Higher octane fuel my friend, you have a high compression engine, the higher the compression the more heat you create. As long as stay below 12:1 compression, 93 should be fine without pinging.
Man, I'm sorry that happened. What a bummer. Glad you're moving forward with a good attitude!
Can't get crazy with compression on a daily driver or street engine.
I'm running a 11.25:1 lq9 on 91 octane with no issues
@@trentdawg2832 The LQ9 is a much more equipped engine for compression then an old small block is capable of
Nice video Eric. I feel your pain. In 1999 I lost an LT1 engine in my 94 Z28. The engine dumped oil all over the bottom of the car, luckily I made it home. Found 3 broken pistons, broke at the ring lands like yours. I put too much timing in the motor and maybe too much boost, my mistake.
I was looking at google maps by my house and i saw a shop that said "Ericthecarguy" on a pin and i searched it up on RUclips and here i am
Cool, Eric is awesome!!!
Cleveland, OH?
@@TransDerwinOverdrive i saw it in mason just confirmed it was him
Thanks for taking us along on you forensic analysis. Sorry you had to go back into the engine but it is a good learning experience for me.
I think you can learn a lot when things don't go right. Thanks for the comment.
Punched it to the floor in during break in, than changed the timing. Enough Said!
Gday Eric , i think your spot on with your autopsy , but one thing i noticed, and from my experience , those vortec blocks are meant to run a coolent bypass pipe from the inlet manifold to the waterpump . For some reason these blocks are notorious for getting hot in the back half of them without the bypass fitted to them . This may account for the back half of the engine looking worse for wear perhaps than the front .being hotter may have bought about the preignition problem earlier than the front . Just my 2 cents worth . Cheers from Australia and good luck .
What fuel are you running/tuning for, 93?
93 Shell VPower Nitro Plus.
@@ericthecarguy I was wondering the same thing but now I know and yep you're absolutely right.
I would think that 93 would be enough? I wonder if there was some inaccuracy in the timing somehow? Either in distributor set up or something with the ecu. Like it was running much more timing then it claimed
@@ericthecarguy Thats what the pump said when you filled your truck...lol.
Did a similar build myself Eric. Mine was less expensive I used iron vortec 062 heads KB claimer pistons stock crank, 6" rods, air gap intake and a quick fuel 650 DP carb. Built my 700r4 to match it also. I run a cheap mr.gasket dipstick. My pickup is 1989 c1500 swb. Great channels, great video. Sorry this happened but i know itll get fixed up.👍
Thanks!
I kinda think this was LSPI, considering the ring land damage.
I hadn't heard about LSPI before your post, but after looking at the damaged caused by the phonomenon, I think you hit the piston on the head, there mate!
zeroyon223 it’s a product of high compressi n and hot spots in the cylinder. I have never seen ring lands blow up like this during regular detonation on a N/A engine.
@zeroyon223 correct. LSPI is a mix of low rpm, high cylinder pressure, and excessive blow by or carbon build up on valves that ignites the fuel mix before the spark plug actually fires. Basically stay out of boost at low rpms. LSPI is also mainly common on small displacement 3 and 4 cylinders where the stock turbo is so small that itll make heaps of boost nearly close to idle rpms if you dont shift right.
Need to install a knock sensor...
As far as I know, the Pro Flo 4 doesn't have provisions for a knock sensor.
@@funkydancer4300 hell, just put it on the charge card. With a little luck you may have a couple months to enjoy it before the kung-flu gets ya.
@@ericthecarguy well there's your whole problem 🤣
I highly doubt that would have saved the engine... knock sensors are more for a bad tank of gas, not fixing a tune that is wayy off for the engine.
@@ericthecarguy another reason to get rid of that system and into one that will properly manage fuel and ignition.
I completely agree with your diagnosis, I once built a 440 for street use as a teenager and it was the first car engine I rebuilt, I made the mistake (on purpose because I didn’t know any better) of setting the thing up for about 11:1 and not only did I have too much pinging with pump gas, I was having difficulty with 100LL. 11:1 is no bueno and with today’s shit/gas even 10:1 may be rough.
Looks like you were using a diesel compression ratio in a gasoline engine. Perhaps a little too high for that set up.
11:1 isn't that high, especially using aluminum heads. I still don't know what pump gas means. 87 octane? 89? 91? 93? I guess for an old-timey SBC 11:1 is quite high. Funny how the modern V8 engines run numbers like that or higher on just premium pump gas.
11:1 is the higher end of the gasoline ratios used. Diesels start about 14:1. “Pump Gas” usually refers to the standard gasoline you buy at any gas station.
Great example of when you are doing engine disassembly to remove the oil pan before you rotate engine over and dump all the "pieces" onto the rotating assembly
Good call. I'm going to do it that way from now on. Thanks for the comment.
Sounds like he really BROKE it in...
The coat hanger reminded me of when I had a rotted ground on a Jetta. Home Depot to the rescue, put the ground for a house in it. Went to a mechanic for stuff I couldn't fix, she was surprised to see that.
Definitely pre-detonation From too high of compression ratio for pump gas
If it's that simple, why not even consider the comp ratio? I mean, if it 's that important why wouldn't it be the first thing a machinist asks or advises on? Even more basic, why isn't there a spreadsheet showing comp ratios vs gas type? I'm thinking there's more to it than type of gas.
Many years ago, an old mate of mine took his Ford Escort MK2 to his local dyno to have his twin DCOE Webbers "Set Up".. Having just rebuilt the Ford "Pinto" 2 litre OHC motor...
The Bloke doing the dyno was known to be a "Bit of a Knob!" and not very good opperating his machinery! (lol!) But.... Being we were situated in deepest Wales, its was the only dyno here at the time!
So... The car was strapped down, started up and imediately the throttle was pinned!
The thing was screaming at umpteen thousand RPM's and through the ear bleeding mechanical abuse one could hear the distant crackle of the dreaded "Death Rattle!"
Then... There was a loud BANG! Burned oil infused smoke filling the room as the rollers slowed down until the only thing to be heard was the crackling of burning fluids....
On inspection... The whole of number one cylinder including head and crankshaft had decided they had had enough and parted company with the rest of the engine block.... The only things keeping them together was the rocker cover, rather knackered camshaft, inlet manifold and sump! Once they were removed the thing just fell to bits!!
You knocked the nail on the head with your diagnosis Eric... Comp to high, Timing out and crap pump gas (Its Petrol over here!)...(and we have "Super Unleaded!")....(lol.!)...
Cheers Mate..
Bummer, Dude! Engines 3, Eric 0. You have had a real bad run of automotive Karma.
1 common denominator
@@Rotttman Alright, I'll bite. As I recall, the Fairmont had detonation issues. The MINI, if I'm not mistaken, had assembly issues. Not that I'm judging. As a former MINI victim (X2!). They are not simple or logic cars to work on. Nor were they well engineered in the first place. I guess one possible take away is that engine building starts with design, and that maybe putting together an engine is something better done in a shop devoted to such things.
@@scottchamberlain5594 They knew he wanted this as a street able, pump gas car. Compression ratio too high!
@@Rotttman Eric seems susceptible to 'mission creep'! The Fairmont was once a nice little old lady coupe, that was going to get a 5.0. Ends up as turbocharged race car. Nothing wrong with that, but if I were doing a long distance cruiser, you could design one a lot simpler, cheaper and better suited to the way he uses it. And just as fast. Not in any way a critique of the build- it was an interesting trip! I would not be surprised to leave him my lawn tractor, and find it with an intercooler, running race gas.
I watched your videos on the engine build. Considering all the care and your knowledge of engines, if I am ever considering a re-power on a vehicle, I will definitely stick with a crate engine.
Call it a heads up on crate engines - the only real assurance is a warranty.
I've pulled down numerous crate, often they're built from remanufactured parts - reground cranks, overbored blocks, remachined connecting rods etc.
nothing any better than what went into this engine, and usually not as good. I'm talking about G.M. and Ford crate engines too, not some off-brand.
I made my living as an engine machine shop and engine remanufacturer as well as high performance/race engine builder and seen quite a few things that weren't what they were sold as or supposed to be.
I've opened up fresh out of the crate engines (I don't arbitrarily trust ANYONE'S work - I inspect new parts before using them as well) and found "trash" in the pans, chunks of gasket, pieces of shop rags, metal shavings, even cranks with sludge in the crankpins and the holes in the counterweights from poor cleaning.
I'm not saying all crate engines are this way I'm saying some are.
If you go that way, inspect what you get before you install it.
Better to inspect and only have to put it in once.
"if you want to play you gotta pay"
Yep spot on detonation, compressions to high, ive made the same mistake myself that’s how I learned the two ways of designing the power you want, 1 build and spec the engine around the camshaft such is what determines your power band. Or 2 choose a cam with appropriate overlap to get the dynamic compression where it needs to be to accommodate the fuel being used. Depends on what you start with . Thanks for the great videos man keep it up we are binge watching you in quarantine 😝
Thanks for the input. I'd also like to add that you should always check over the work, or the parts your machinist orders before installation.
Eric " there will be goo because let's be honest there is always good"
Me "That's what she said"
I thought the same thing...
What a bummer! Good analysis of what caused it. Good luck with the new piston is.
Eric, that worries me.....what if I want to put just a little more horses in my classic car?
what you went through would break me!
Running higher octane fuel should give you more headroom before anything bad happens.
Hence the reason I make these videos. To help you avoid costly mistakes like this. The take away here is make sure you have a compression ratio that plays nice with pump gas. For an engine like this without a knock sensor, you should be fine with 10:1. Just be sure to only run premium fuel.
patx35 True. I was running 93 octane at the time, which likely isn't enough for an 11:1 compression ratio. I would not have run a compression ratio that high had I known about it. An 11:1 engine would run fine on race gas though.
@@ericthecarguy Wondering if you could run E 85 on this. Is there a place to hook up a fuel sensor to detect the E 85?
@@WickedProxy E85 is not needed on a relatively low compression SBC. This is all in the tune, this is why any half way decent tuner will start low on timing and sneak up on it.
Stock deck height is 9.020. Rebuild/overbore pistons are 9.000. This is so you can specifically deck your block and bring it back to 0 during a rebuild. The real question is ; 'what is your overall quench?' Meaning with the piston in the hole and your head gasket installed and you check each piston @TDC(top and bottom of the block for rock) what will be the end number? There's volumes written on the effects of having too much room between the piston and the flat part of your head. That gap if its too big will trap fuel which will wait to be ignited and pre ignite the next time around. Smaller is bettter. Never add a thicker head gasket or 'shims' to decrease compression. Ive gone as low as .032 in an SBC. All depends on if its a cast crank(they actually bend less)or forged, whats your redline, what are you doing with the motor , whats the overall compression, what fuel , yadda yadda.
Me: man this nuetral safety switch is hard to get off
Etcg: *pulls engines out of cars all the time*
He built it them to come out easier than the dealer cars
@Alex Eidenier it probably helps when you're an actual mechanic too lol
@Alex Eidenier lol i don't have enough experience to do stuff like that yet
@Alex Eidenier yeah lol now that i think about it i probably could remove one if i had the right stuff but it would probably take a while
Eric I love your videos and was quite surprised that you had problems with this engine. You are so far into it now that I would go a couple of extra steps just for my peace of mind if it were me. I would pull that front cover off and check that all is well with the timing between the cam and crankshaft. It would add a little bit more work at the end of the day but I'd certainly sleep better for having put my eyes on those timing marks. Could have gotten a bad chain or something else that skewed the timing that you set. I will look forward to seeing where you go with this build. Best wishes for a bulletproof assembly.
I actually degreed the cam during assembly. ruclips.net/video/h7qowMqZXRA/видео.html
Be sure to tune in next week to see how it all works out. Thanks for the comment.
@@ericthecarguy I saw that but being this close to the front, I would still have had to look. I am a bit OCD admittedly but I could not have resisted, crap happens & maybe I got a timing chain that was less than perfect. I am looking forward to all of your videos.
hone the cylinders and remic everything for ring gap & etc
The combustion chamber isn't the right shape to handle that high a compression. Slightly dished pistons would lower compression a bit and improve squish to take care of it.
Thanks for sharing. Must be heartbreaking but we're all learning from your experience
Wow, that was really a massacre
I kept saying detonation. When you said pinging, that was it. An engine with bust its self to pieces. I had a snowmobile engine detonate like that. The aluminum pistons hate detonation like that. In this case, it was timing for sure. The sad part, it was set to factory specs. I found out that it was changed somewhere. I had one engine snap the crankshaft outside the engine, at the clutch. The guy over built the engine and the stock crank couldnt handle it. You are a bigger man admitting you did it instead of blaming parts( I get tired of hearing that) . I would love to work on an engine that clean. Sad to see what happened but live and learn. Like you said, just get it fixed and move on. Yes, I have screwed up a few engines in my day. They were always my own and always because of some thing I did. Yes. I have gotten bad parts. it dies happen. I always research things really well before blaming parts.
As far as opening an engine up to seat the rings, I cringe just thinking about that. Every manual I have ever read says to break them in easy. Mabe I am wrong, mabe it's just me bring careful. I know in all my years rebuilding snowmobile engines, I would break an engine in for customers so they wouldn't rag the piss out of them , blowing them up then blaming me. I worked for a shop that taught me that because the owner had a guy go out back his shop and totally destroy a brand new engine because he felt he had to hammer on it. Then he came in all pissed blaming the owner.
Will you be able to get the cylinders cleaned up with just a home job or will it need to be bored out?
I didn't do anything with the cylinder bores.
Agree with your assessment. Pump gas quality is way Varied from pump to pump and time of the year and what smog specs in your area. The coolant does not flow well in the rear of the motor. The right side is help by flow going through the heater core. Left side just dead head against intake. Should drill intake or back of head to allow flow back to front of intake. Lower temps in rear on engine to help spark knock a little bit.
time for knock sensors to prevent this kind of stuff
As far as I know, the Pro Flo 4 system has no provisions for a knock sensor.
EricTheCarGuy there are aftermarket solutions for knock detection.
Actually that would make a great video. A knock sensor is basically a mic and you can hook them up to an amp and listen for knock.
G6ET_WRX Useless if it can't communicate with the computer and retard timing.
With 11 and 1/2 to 1 compression all you're going to do is scare the computer :-)
Great video, just spent about an hour watching this build. I really appreciate the whole process. Thanks for making this
21:08 - So is that guy refunding you for doing it wrong?
What did he do wrong? Eric was pretty vague and any performance engine shop is going to err on what makes more power. Pump gas can mean 91 octane winter swill or 104 unleaded, depending on where you are located, entirely possible Eric could have gotten some bad fuel too. 11:1 SBC's on pump gas in a street vehicle is fine but that means you are dumping in octane boosters or buying specialty gas.