To be clear, CFRP (Carbon Fiber Reinforced Plastic) has a place in an engineering context. It increases stiffness, and when properly formulated it also increases strength. If you have an application where it is necessary, you should absolutely consider using it. The last half of the video proposes some simple solutions that manufacturers and users can adopt to improve safety, should you want to print with CFRP. My concern is that it is being marketed to beginners as a way to improve surface finish or print quality, without clearly communicating the risks. This is especially the case for CF-PLA, which in my opinion, has no legitimate use-cases compared to regular PLA. The issue of fibers coming loose, embedded in skin, etc. outweighs the cosmetic benefit for printing trinkets, toys, or non-structural parts.
@@worshaw Metal filled filaments are probably less harmful. The particles will be more spherical instead of straight rods, so they won't cause splinters. But still use caution when sanding or grinding to prevent inhalation. That should be a priority for any sanding operation. Maybe if it was lead filled it would be dangerous.
@@NathanBuildsRobots I have something coming up where metal filled might be a candidate, saw this and maybe me wonder. Descriptions online sounds like it’s ground or shaved , which made me think of burrs and metal dust after seeing the carbon fiber.
@@worshaw Yes, you may get some metal particle around, but there are a few factors making metals safer. 1) Density and particle size mean it is unlikely to become airborne. 2) The particles will be not be sharp and pointy, so they are unlikely to burrow into your skin 3) Unlike glass and pure carbon, metals will oxidize and break down over time.
Another point: Carbon fibers are extremely light so they easily become airborne. Which is not good in combination with most prints needing some post processing - removing supports/brims and filing for proper fits, or god forbid sanding.
I work in a factory that produces Carbon Fiber racing boats, and I can definitely confirm sanding and cutting is uncomfortable. It's probably not super dangerous, and honestly I'm the only one who seems to care enough to wear a mask when cutting, ripping drilling, or sanding CF with power tools, but it's definitely a nuisance. Even as I'm writing this I can feel the fibers prick my skin from today's work. Pro tip: take a cold shower if you got it on you. Hot water only opens your pores and lets the fibers get stuck. Cold water does a better job.
@@rynnjacobs8601 It also keeps the plastic cool and rigid, that's a nice bonus as this helps with the sandability (PLA when dry sanded will warm up due to the friction and become rubbery, and become hard to sand).
Ex composite materials engineer here, carbon fibres are not joke once the get in your skin they don’t come out. They have micro barbs that make the get trapped and the skin just grows over them and buries. Always wear gloves when handling and you want a table with vacuum extraction from underneath for cutting and preparing. I have a pice of carbon fibre in my finger it’s been there for 18 years😂. Also don’t get carbon dust in anything electric as it can short.
Got splinters a few times myself, but thankfully, I was working with cured resin and could pull it out without too much difficulty, but definitely a lot of stress! Had double gloved with nitrile gloves too!
Sigh, I don't have a microscope to verify if anything got permanently stuck, but I've handled carbon fiber filament. Well now I know. No more Carbon Fiber filament. Too bad, because I don't have a good way right now to prevent Polycarbonate from warping with large prints.
After watching this video I took one of my cf-asa printed parts under the microscope. What I see is that most of the fibers are embedded in the plastic, however most is not all, there are still some fibers sticking out, being able to get picked up into your skin. So I'd say even for printed parts treat them with the same precautions as unprinted filament, up until you've sealed the part. (effectively clear coat every cf print to make them safer for handling.)
About 20 years ago I was into archery. They teach you to inspect your arrows before every shot. I was shooting aluminium arrows and when shooting an ultra light tube with a tiny dent in it out of a 70lbs bow .. they can fail, and bits go right through the hand holding the bow. A friend was shooting carbon fibre, siting how much stronger they were for the weight ... so I looked into it. Turns out carbon fibre arrows can also fail, even more spectacularly. The problem being that bits of aluminium driven into your hand appear on an x-ray. Carbon fibre does NOT appear on an x-ray. So to get all the bits out, they literally have to sit with a microscope and poke out every tiny black dot amidst all the blood and torn flesh. Anything they miss will still be there decades later, poking you every time you move the hand. Needless to say, I'm still shooting aluminium.
I was hand-sanding a 1mm cf rod (really dumb in retrospection) and stabbed it about an inch into a fingertip at an angle. Of course, it broke off. I removed most of it right away but it splintered when it broke. After festering for 4 months I removed another 1 inch piece. That was 6 months ago. There is still at least one more piece in there. I can feel it move and it hurts. I can even see the tip move just under my skin. One day I'll cut it out too. Use caution with cf, boys and girls!
@@jonathanshaw8868 It's a good question. Although not my area of expertise, I can speak to a few things. Unlike asbestos, fiberglass does not appear to persist in the lungs or other tissues. Most studies have shown that fiberglass is less likely to cause long-term health issues. The primary concerns are skin, eye, and respiratory irritation. There are already established guidelines and safety measures for handling fiberglass. OSHA and other regulatory bodies have set exposure limits to minimize risks. There have been some lawsuits related to fiberglass exposure, mostly involving short-term irritations or specific conditions under certain circumstances. However, these cases have not reached the scale of asbestos litigation due to the difference in health impacts. Continued research and any emerging evidence of long-term health risks associated with fiberglass could change the landscape. If new studies show significant health risks, it could lead to more extensive litigation. As is often the case, as public awareness and scientific understanding evolve, any new findings about the risks of fiberglass exposure could influence legal actions.
@@jonathanshaw8868 It's a good question. Although not my area of expertise, I can speak to a few things. Unlike asbestos, fiberglass does not appear to persist in the lungs or other tissues. Most studies have shown that fiberglass is less likely to cause long-term health issues. The primary concerns are skin, eye, and respiratory irritation. There are already established guidelines and safety measures for handling fiberglass. OSHA and other regulatory bodies have set exposure limits to minimize risks. There have been some lawsuits related to fiberglass exposure, mostly involving short-term irritations or specific conditions under certain circumstances. However, these cases have not reached the scale of asbestos litigation due to the difference in health impacts. Continued research and any emerging evidence of long-term health risks associated with fiberglass could change the landscape. If new studies show significant health risks, it could lead to more extensive litigation. As is often the case, as public awareness and scientific understanding evolve, any new findings about the risks of fiberglass exposure could influence legal actions.
While both fiberglass and asbestos pose health risks, there are significant differences between the two. Fiberglass exposure can cause irritation to the skin, eyes, and respiratory system, but it hasn't been conclusively linked to severe long-term health effects like mesothelioma or lung cancer, which are associated with asbestos. As a result, fiberglass regulations are less stringent compared to the heavy restrictions and bans placed on asbestos in many countries. Asbestos has led to extensive litigation, becoming one of the longest and most expensive mass torts in U.S. history. In contrast, fiberglass-related lawsuits have been relatively limited and typically focus on workplace exposure and safety measures. However, as awareness of fiberglass exposure risks grows and more scientific research is conducted, there could be an increase in litigation, especially if new evidence links fiberglass to serious health conditions. Employers in industries using fiberglass need to ensure proper safety measures to protect workers, which could mitigate the potential for lawsuits. While fiberglass currently doesn't have the same level of legal action as asbestos, the landscape could change with continued research and heightened awareness. Let me know if I can help in any other way. Be safe out there.
Good to see this kinda stuff being brought up. We are so use to stuff we buy being vetted as safe, but these printing materials can be a real toss up about how toxic or dangerous they can be if we use them every day. I work in an asbestos testing lab, and needle-like particles like that are pretty hazardous when inhaled over time.
I printed carbon fiber filaments in my living space (including my bedroom) and had to sneeze often after printing carbon fiber filaments and also when handling freshly printed parts. I found a lot of little tiny carbon fiber parts in my snot under a microscope. they were all of equal length... so they were not broken off, but they were the actual milled carbon fibers being released from the filament.
This seems very odd, the printing process shouldn't kick the fibres up into the air and carbon fibres of that kind of size are probably too large to be suspended in the air, dust from sanding or milling is different though. What brand of filament were you using and what were you printing it on?
@@swecreations hehehe, actually in South Africa. There is public medical care, but it's really bad, you won't survive a serious illness on public medical care...
I guess one other problem could be printing some carbon fiber filament. Then you switch to regular PLA cause you need to print something that is safe, and carbon fiber stuck in the PTFE tubes or gears of your printer contaminates the supposedly safe PLA.
If that does happen then the amount of carbon fibre that contaminates the safe PLA will be very low and will be at its highest right at the start of the filament which you should purge anyway. Also if you need to guarantee something is safe for child, medical or food use you should have a nozzle (ideally whole hotend) dedicated for it anyway.
@@conorstewart2214 I think things like the filament cutter and extruder gears will work some fibers loose and they will be floating around inside of your enclosed printer, and lofted into the air by the powerful part cooling fans.
@@conorstewart2214 Not true. I used quite a bit of cf-pla then switched to white pla later. It took FOREVER to stop coming out light grey. It never did come out solid pure white. The grey was clearly visible the whole length of the tube.
I had a similar realization (albeit just Microplastics in general, not CF) once i got a powerful UV light Fibers from plastic textiles EVERYWHERE. I dread if i can see weedwacker dust at work from the “neon orange string trimmer line”. Granted carbon fiber and ESPECIALLY carbon nanotubes are way more concerning than microplastics due to the barbs and fibrous nature as someone else pointed out in these comments. I’m glad you raised more awareness on all this, great video as always! Be safe out there y’all !
Yep, I try to buy 100% cotton and wool textiles as often as possible. Look no further than the dryer lint collector to see how much sheds off of your clothes and bedding.
@@NathanBuildsRobots Rayon/Viscose is a neat option too! Can be made from anything cellulose. If @thethoughtemporium gets around the releasing the files as Open Source and/or if i get impatient+motivated and get a wet spinning setup going i would LOVE to make my own!
I appreciate the video. As a guy working on a full Iron Man suit made of carbon fiber nylon, I'll be taking some additional safety precautions and make sure I seal the prints on the inside and outside.
Work safety is normally ignored by hobbyists. I allways run my 3D Printer in a well ventilated, closed room. And I don't use resin printers because the effort which is needed to make it safe is too high. Also with lasercutters (especial CO2). It's like driving a motorbike. Good protection equipment is crucial...
Thank you for your comment. Some 3D technology seems to have been rushed to market. It's great to embody an item quickly, but the operator exposure seems a considerable downside.
its literally not that bad. zero people had died from 3d printing related "hazards". you people are so paranoid that you think one infinitesimal minor thing can cause life debilitating issue or death. there hasn't been one study that proves off gassing filament or resin is dangerous. people have been working in plastic injection plants for decades. working right next to machines that squeeze out tons of plastic a day with little to no ventilation and what has that caused? apparently nothing if ohsha isn't forcing these workers to use gas masks or vents directly above the machine. and lasers how many people have you heard died from bonfire wood smoke a year? they're exposed to billions time more smoke than a laser cutter can output in a month.
@@goatpepperherbaltea7895 Yeah, or some CO2 lasers gave gallium-arsenic mirrors. If they are getting dirty this stuff is blown in the air... first think then work.
The good thing is that carbon fiber is bio compatible and wont trigger carcinogenic processes and wont make the immune system go nuts like asbestos, but yet, in the lungs can make permanent dmg to the tissues
I'm not sure if asbestos is carcinogen per-se or if cancer develops due to tissue being damaged by tiny needles causing inflammation or something. Because some diseases can develop even when lungs are exposed to other dust such as in quarries. Asbestos is basically from many of minerals that can crystalize into long, thin whiskers under certain conditions. But I assume fibrous glass is not healthy either, but risk may be lower, cause not so many particles are airborne.
One key aspect of asbestos that makes it unique, is that when you're dealing with friable asbestos, it can easily be pulverized into incredibly tiny particles. Not only do they easily become airborne, but they also can remain suspended in the air with little to no air movement for very long periods of time. I appreciate you discussing how similar these carbon fiber filments can be to asbestos as far as how easily they can contaminate your skin and surfaces within your work area, but it'd be very interesting to find out easily they become airborne and how long those fibers can remain suspended in the air.
Another interesting fact, the way asbestos is defined, requires a specific ratio of length to width of the fiber. If its not long and thin enough, it can't legally be called asbestos.
It's a very well studied area. People who actually work with carbon fiber in an industrial capacity can attest to the amount of protection used when dealing with stuff directly. Weaves are fine, they hold together as one piece. But any modification cutting sanding etc is all done in bunny suit + respirator + gloves. The filaments and prints are assumed safe because the fibers are embedded in the plastic. But it's only an assumption that they bond well enough to not slide out if they're exposed on the surface. Either way, it's a PSA that the only post processing that should be done to CF filaments is painting or sealing directly and absolutely no sanding.
I would love for you to test a few different brands of PLA and PETG filaments (stuff that people use all the time) and see how much toxic they are and whether there are differences between brands.
The more I look into reinforced plastics in general, the more I despise them. It's not just that this stuff can hurt you and your loved ones when it's made and in use. It's also nigh impossible to recycle or dispose of, and harming the people working in or living near recycling plants and landfills.
@thekraken1173 Hey plastic is still a useful material. It's one thing to ban single use plastics but to ban all plastic is illogical and irrational. Calm down Greta Thunbergs boyfriend. The world is not ending in 10 years. And cow farts do not cause global warming.
Thank you, I was planning on buying some PLA CF but this stopped me. My prof used to mill Carbon fiber and told us the dust would pierce our lungs. Thank you have you probably saved a lot of us from the hospital
The main concerns with carbon fibre is very short fibres and dust getting into your lungs which isn't very likely with 3D printing filled filaments. PLA CF is mostly a waste of time anyway, CF or other reinforcements only make sense once their are no non filled alternatives or you are using higher end filaments like fibre reinforced nylons or polycarbonates.
@@ultramegax I would look at safety resources for fiberglass insulation as well as for regular fiberglass molding, the concerns should be similar and information is plentiful. Can't link anything because youtube doesn't like that, but a google search should yield plenty of results.
This makes me glad that in 10 years of 3D printing I’ve never used CF reinforced filaments. However I can’t take credit for knowing this or anything, I just considered it a gimmick because I work with materials and couldn’t see how tiny pieces of carbon fiber in the molten plastic would make the end result stronger by an appreciable amount
And all these microplastics end up in our drinking water, our bodies, in animals, fish and oceans, everywhere. We need to look at outputs, not just inputs.
The smoke you talk about at the end may or may not be smoke. If your filament has absorbed moisture and is now being pushed through a 250°C nozzle that water turns into a 35x bigger volume of steam and bursts out of it. If there is really a lot of it in the filament you can hear a sound like eggs frying in a pan as the individual bubbles break and you can see the stream of molten material is not nice and smooth. But even at lower percentage of moisture you can see the vapour escaping and the amount of it is directly proportional to the flow rate of the filament through the nozzle. You of course can actually burn stuff and have real smoke. But that needs temperatures significantly out of range for the given filament and it also tends to keep on smoking when the flow through the nozzle stops because there is still more plastic being burned inside the overly hot nozzle. With extra high flow this kind of smoke tends to diminish because less plastic has time to get to the temperature where it smokes. If you are making such smoke your print also tends to come out weak and fragile because some parts of the polymer were destroyed in the nozzle and the rest does not have the mechanical properties you would expect from the given type of filament. There are applications where having the fibers in the filament is needed. For example right now I am trying to print a holder for a robot battery pack. The print is almost 400mm long and needs to keep its mechanical properties at 70°C with some margin. I am trying ASA-CF but in my experience any filament that softens at 90°C or higher also likes to warp a lot when you try to print large objects with it, even in enclosed printers. Having the fibers in the filament means the warping is gone or almost gone and the large print is actually possible. With all the other stuff we are exposed to every day I am not about the start worrying about a few carbon fibers from occasionally touching such filament. The diesel car that overtook me on a dusty road when I was cycling yesterday probably did way more damage to me. That doesn't mean I will ignore the risk and go lick a carbon fiber infused printed parts. But I think every risk should be taken with some perspective to it. If I were to handle such filament for work 8 hours a day every day then the extra clothing, gloves and respirators would make sense. They wear this in factories where they do cutting and sanding of carbon fiber composite parts for airplanes and such (I've been there a few times). But if I print out one spool of this stuff every 6 months and use it for parts that are not being touched by anyone in their normal use I don't think there is a need to freak out about it.
This is a great take (I wish I had seen it before ordering couple of carbon fiber and glass fiber reinforced filaments, lol). I was just thinking about the PTFE tubes and how they are considered another wear item, which means that it is being slowly eroded and getting airborne or contaminating the printed objects. PTFE (Teflon) is a 'forever chemical', our body can't get rid of it so this one also is a potential risk factor.
When we were trained to splice fibres they warned us that the shards if they got into your skin would be absorbed and slowly make their way to your heart over the years, I wonder if the same thing would happen in this case. They're certainly just as fine as shards of fibre optic cable.
Thats a good analogy, the same standards should probably apply From Fluke: The fiber at the center of a fiber optic cable is glass - powerful yet delicate, and capable of inflicting great injury when damaged or broken. Control hazardous glass fragments from a job by keeping yourself, and your work area, very clean. • Wear safety glasses with side shields (over your eyeglasses, if you wear them) to help keep fiber shards from reaching your eyes. Keep your hands away from your face while you’re working, and always wash your hands thoroughly before touching your face or contact lenses. • Wear a disposable lab apron to reduce the chances of fiber splinters collecting on your clothing and transferring to other surfaces (or taking a ride home with you). • Don’t allow food or beverages in the work area (don’t smoke there, either). Not only can particles from your lunch break contaminate your work, fragments of fiber are impossible to see but easy to ingest if they fall into your food - which could lead to internal hemorrhage and even death. • Make sure your work area is well ventilated to help prevent tiny glass particles from disturbed fiber cable from becoming airborne and being inhaled. • Dispose of all fiber cable scraps properly in a labeled container with a secure lid. • Make sure there’s adequate clearance around any spark hazards or heat sources, such as fusion splicers and curing ovens, to reduce the chance of fire. • Clean up at the end of the day to control fiber fragments and keep everyone on the job safe.
No.. it would not. THE problem with asbest is and was, that the fibres split longitudinal. Carbon, Glass and so on do not and get ejected by the skin over time. asbest would just get thiner and will be able to puncture everything in your body and get everywhere.
@@ZappyOh carbon-carbon bonds are really strong and generally hard to break down. Doing some searching suggests that myeloperoxidase may be able to break it down in human bodies, though I'm not sure how effective that would actually be in practice.
You are quite correct. Many people using these carbon fibre content filaments, do not know the dangers of what they are playing with. You should where appropriate PPE, and as a minimum gloves and a mask FFP3 or better. The composites industry does not where all that gear for the look! If I print with a fibre containing filament, I seal the finished item with clear lacquer.
The rubbing off in a finished product, or while handling filament isn’t scary in the slightest bit. What is scary, is you’re usually using some pretty powerful fans on a good printer during prints, which is lofting it into the air continuously.
That's a good point. The fans blowing things all over the place aren't going to help make things safer. I'm going to check the bottom of the filament bag to see if there is a little pile of CF fragments in there.
Yes and no. You don't need to go down all the way to < 100 nm of the individual fibers. Some people seem to like sanding their prints as well and having non-resorbable PM2.5 particles is bad enough. In my work with carbon fiber I've seen PAN carbon fibers with ~5 µm diameter shatter lengthwise to create smaller splinters with lengths a few times their cross sectional dimension. Lower density, but probably similar persistent needle-like foreign body effects when inhaled.
The filament may be dangerous, but what about parts that have already been printed? If you rub printed parts on your skin, do you see the same embedded fibers occur? Thanks for the video.
I actually don't think manufacturers will mind. This isn't a deterrent. Nylon, ABS, and Resin are all nasty. It's about education and preparation when working with interesting materials.
You will not believe what happens to people who work in a machine shop/ work with composites 😂😂😂 My friend at work said he wasn't allowed to get an MRI for over a year after he stopped working there because of the steel dust in his pores. Either way this doesn't actually harm you all that much, just don't breathe it in.
I'm against these crap carbon fiber filaments. They're great for stabilizing things like Nylon, but in general they aren't providing any strength in the Z axis, where 3D prints are the weakest anyways. They're largely a gimmick. They tear your printers up, the fibers aren't long enough to really matter, just in general it's a crap product. The only machine/process worth doing anything with carbon fiber, is Markforged. They embed long carbon fibers directly into the center of the thermoplastic, and have a special cutter to slice the continuous strand. Glad to see you doing more content like this - your channel has gotten better and better.
This is good general info, as someone who likes to engineer things and actually enjoys the ideal of slightly more exotic filaments, PP, ASA, Varioshore, Nylon etc. I've actually complete avoided CF, the closest I have is PA6-GF and I've not even opened that one yet, likely will do so with gloves or handle it only through a paper towel now, to be safe. And obviously be careful WHAT it's used for as the end-print. (Obviously not a fidget spinner.)
You should always be aware of the risks no matter what you do. Woodworking, 3d printing, welding, painting, .... There are safety regulations in the industry for a reason. You can often significantly improve safety in your hobby workshop with little effort. Your health should be worth it.
Great vid as always. I print 90+% in just plain old PLA. The obsession with carbon or glass filaments for objects that don't need it frustrates me as well. I have only 2-3 designs over 5+ years that have really benefited from fiber-filled filament. I think the biggest challenge is getting folks to understand that there is no "strongest" or "best" filament. Everyone wants to just find the "best" filament, and use it for everything rather than learn the different properties of different materials and think how those properties relate to the application.
I don't understand the hype of CF filaments, for most use cases. But when I need a super strong, resilient part (especially one that is quite small), I look to GF-Nylon. So if that's equally problematic, that's unfortunate. I'll have to do some research on it.
I usually try to minimise costs and make parts as easy to print as possible so that automatically eliminates most CF filaments unless I really need it. I have found a good middle ground in terms of cost and performance is PC. Significantly stronger than PLA, almost as stiff, less brittle and can handle higher temperatures whilst printing well and working with a 0.2 mm nozzle if I need it to. Most of my prints are also PLA though, especially first prints to test fit and function unless it is a tiny part.
Nice video! Simple engineering talk and backed by evidence. You're absolutely right about people not taking h&s seriously in this space. It was the same when I was a technician in one of the best universities in the world, absolute joke. Best thing is to not take the risk yourself.
That's unfortunate, pa6cf is one of the few materials I've found that can actually handle the temperature and chemicals my projects deal with. It opens up a lot of part design that would otherwise be impossible, and was the sole reason for picking up 3d printing. I think I'll be coating and potting pa6cf parts from here out, so it's good info. Thanks for sharing it.
Have you tried any other Nylon derivatives? Glass Filled Nylon might be an option? (It can also be equally dangerous to your health though if not handled in a well ventilated area with incredibly strong filtered extraction.) Maybe some other plastic or polymer other than Nylon? Could you make your parts out of another material that's entirely different and just use the 3D Printing Process to create the moulds needed to shape the final part? I'm sure that alternatives do exist, you might just need to rethink how you're creating the parts in order to find an equally viable but much safer material to create your parts from. Whatever you end up doing do NOT disregard the dangers of Carbon Fibre, Other Fibre Materials, &, Micro Plastics, all three of these material types are VERY BAD for our respiratory and gut health, and it is very important that you take the appropriate protective measures to look after your health and the health of EVERYTHING around you, be it people, pets, other wildlife, or even plants, these fibres can end up EVERYWHERE..!
These materials would probably be a lot safer if produced as multi layer coextrusion with an outer layer that's pure resin and the CF infused resin only in the inner layer.
Yeah but then you'd just be bonding the outer layers together, leaving a flat noodle of carbon inbetween. You want a homogeneous mix for the strength benefit.
I'm so glad someone eventually talks about this. I always had my concerns in regards of this stuff and seemingly I wasn't wrong about it. Never bought, never printed with fiber filament. When receiving my samples from Bambulabs I even threw those samples (containing CF) away and washed off all the others. "I probably overreacted" but I simply can't deal with sh*t I can not see - and therefore not control.
You definitely overreacted if you washed down the other spools. Also what does this video prove? That the fibres are there and come off, it says nothing about how dangerous or harmful they are or if they are even harmful at all, so I’d maybe slow down before jumping on something just to try and prove yourself right.
PLA+ can be surprisingly strong. I've been using it for most of my prints including functional ones and from what I've heard CF-PLA isn't better at all because of how brittle it is. CF-Nylon is apparently one that does make sense as carbon fiber not only makes it stronger but also less prone to warping but this is the first time I see anyone considering its safety. People usually just talk about the need to use hardened steel nozzle and slower print speeds when listing its downsides. Now I have one more reason to never use it unless absolutely necessary.
One thing you can do to mitigate risk is to use a sealant layer on the externals of your parts, and to avoid any overly spiky or abrupt geometries in your parts. I wouldn't recommend printing a gear, for example (not that additional tensile strength would help with a gears durability to begin with).
I used to do Glass cutting, the shards you get off the carpeted cutting table daily we used to get out by soaking in hot soapy water, they do come out, you can see them in the bowl afterwards.
I agree that people over use it…. PLA for prototyping, nylon reinforced for mechanical models that need the reinforcement or needed to prevent warping. Main thing I see CF nylon used for is firearm and launcher models/frames.
You can remove a large portion of the CF shards from your skin by applying tape to your skin to pull it off. I use clear packing tape. Otherwise you will feel pretty uncomfortable for days. You should use a simple barrier cream if you do this work though. OSHA hasn't decided officially yet on its hazardous rating in terms of being a carcinogen as far as I know
Not terribly worried about the stuff that gets on the skin, but the prospect of inhalation is scarier. Just printing with it occasionally almost certainly not a big deal, but if you ran this stuff on a print farm daily it would be bad news. I do think there are concerns around using fiber filled filament, but it's nowhere near Asbestos levels of dangerous. As for uses of fiber reinforced materials, there are many. For PLA it is primarily aesthetic as it hides layer lines and produces a nice finish, but it can also be stiffer and it tends to be high flowing. For Nylon it is primarily less warping and also more stiffness rather than elasticity. PETG and other filaments, generally a mix of the above benefits.
I think it should be pointed out that these fibers are far larger than the asbestos fibers that cause cancer. So they won't pose the same risk that asbestos poses, but any small non-degradable particle is a lung hazard.
When you print, your printer releases microplastic and fumes. This is dangerous too. Build an enclosure. Extract all fumes outside. Buy a cyclone vacuum cleaner. Mop your floors.
Thank you for the research your doing, definitely important safety concerns! I was quite unaware of the carbon fiber hazards. Thank you again, and will consider this greatly.
Why haven’t you looked at printed parts only on filament? Would be interesting to know if the printed parts loose fibres as much. Fibres in filament are typically 0.03-0.3 mm long. 0.5 mm would be already too long to work reliably with standard nozzles. Essentially it is fibre-dust. Carbon-filled filament typically is less strong than the base-material, but the carbon-fibres make it more stiff and reduces thermal expansion. The main advantages are: ‣ It makes warp-happy filament like PA a lot easier to print. ‣ It looks cool. ‣ The parts get lighter ‣ The parts get stiffer
After watching this video I took one of my cf-asa prints under the microscope. What I see is that most of the fibers are embedded in the plastic, however most is not all, there are still some fibers sticking out, being able to get picked up into your skin. So I'd say treat printed parts with the same precautions as unprinted filament, up until you've sealed the part. (effectively clear coat every cf print to make them safer for handling.)
The best way to add CF reinforcement to a print is to design in channels in your print where you can lay/wrap down some carbon fiber thread and epoxy it in place. It is going to be way stronger than CF reinforced filament, safer to use, and wont wear out your nozzle. You can also pause a print, drop some carbon fiber chop and epoxy into the low% infil, and then resume once it hardens. That's a super easy way to do it.
And here I was thinking about getting a spool. It does make really lovely prints, but overall it’s weaker than standard filament from the test I have seen. Not worth the risk.
nothing a nice coat of varnish/lacquer or other clearcoat can't prevent.... just that most people don't invest the time effort to post process their parts.
Holy s. Thanks for this video. I printed petg-cf switch controller "holders" for my kids. Those will go into the trash straight away. I was very naive to assume that the fibers would be completely sealed in the petg. Thank you for showing me this.
Exactly, very little information on this video other than the fact that the fibres exist. Nothing about whether or not the fibres are actually harmful.
Nanoparticles are problem with regular laser printers too. Don't try to wash it with warm water. If you look even closer, there is a million small bacteria that are trying to eat it away :D
I showed a friend a print from PLA CF and he screamed: “you know that CF in the air has the same effect as asbestos ?!?!” Got me thinking. Now your video. I think I’m gonna quit printing CF materials, although on one special design it’s toughness was really needed 😢
That really hasn’t been proven for 3D printing though. Yes sanding or cutting CF produces dust and particles that are bad for you but this isn’t the same.
I would be more worried about the continual handling that would introduce any airborne particles. Do all the printers use a proper air filter on their heat exhaust fans? Storing reels near a vent or fan would be the biggest worry. I'd say that is a strong reason to set up shop in a garage, not like a craft room expansion.
I noticed that when feeding my CF into the printer I could feel the 'roughness' but didn't realise those little pieces break off and get all over. Thanks for the video, I will be more careful now. Luckily I have just bought a X1 Carbon and also have an external filtration system too and will use this setup for anything volatile. Anything with fibers in it will get onto your skin, air, clothing and everywhere else I guess unless properly trapped with a filtration system.
It would be interesting to see if similar granular embedded particles if you ran your hands over copper, aluminium wire. Having worked with many different materials it pretty much always feels like particles are embedded into your skin (eyes and lungs) if not using correct PPE.
Asbestos was banned cause the fibres were way thinner than common carbon fibre and other materials aaand people were ignoring the problem. Even when they knew the danger people often didn't wear protective equipment. Rockwool and Glasswool are also known to be rather damaging to the lungs (specially as they often have nasty chemical coatings) but the research into those was cut a bit short. Still not something you want to work with without at least a high quality mask. And with fibre reinforced materials (be it filament or others) you absolutely want a respirator if you are sanding them and, as you covered, not want that to come into contact with food or other things that will come into contact with sensitive areas (i have seen a 3D printed Carbonfibre toiletseat .... have fun)
That "smoke" is probably steam from wet filament. You don't get it with most materials properly dried unless you get it build up on the outside of the nozzle where it's exposed to air at high temp and will gradually oxidize.
Good information to consider especially not needing small strands to go airborne and get inhaled. I also noticed your MK4 with MMU3 and the Sunlu S4 filament dryer. I have the same but the dryer isn't setup yet to help keep at least 4 filaments for the MMU3 dry and ready. I have a Creality Pi dryer fir the 5th as well but I'll need to find a good place to set all of them up for convenience.
I find these educational videos invaluable. It's crucial that we dispel the misconception that 3D printing is entirely safe; there are real health considerations we need to raise awareness about. I've noticed firsthand the blackening of hotend nozzles over time due to the smoke emissions you mentioned, underscoring the presence of potentially harmful substances from 3D printers.
@@conorstewart2214 Yeah the video highlights the existence of fibers and emissions during 3D printing, which is a valid concern. While it may not delve deeply into the specific health risks, it's a starting point for raising awareness right?
Siraya Tech Fibreheart filament doesn't have the fibres on the edges of the filament and I'd consider it a mandatory safety feature for fibre based filaments now, and really should only be used for printability and stiffness, theres absolutely no need for PLA-CF as a result
Can you make a short version? Your video gets better watched whole, when you like it suggested to many people😉 Your cause is of such kind, where this video should go viral.
@@NathanBuildsRobots you know what, maybe they really should put real asbestos into filaments. Pretty sure the fuel cooker I bought on Am*zon has some of it as well. I'm convinced it slipped past customs. It's not over yet. So if you really want to shake hands with danger, make that happen ;)
Well this was no surprise. I have no doubt other, non-carbon fiber filaments will end up in places we don't want them in, in small particles and strands just like this, only in fewer amounts. Think of stringing for example... And what about POM dust from printers with POM wheels? Isn't that basically solid formaldehyde?
@@NathanBuildsRobots Ok, sounds... not so terrible. For a couple of years I worked at a CNC lathe where we would occasionally use POM (delrin) to make parts out of, and it would smell really weird and make a big mess with tiny chips and dust inside the machine every time. I bet it was the formaldehyde gas being released.
I have Creality Matte Black PLA, and that stuff has distinct "grainy" texture and a peculiar, strong odor to it, before, during, and after printing, which other matte filament doesn't have, even from the same brand (I've used green and grey Creality Matte PLA's).
Where I work we have shrouds over everything pulling all the air away from the extruders (we don’t do 3d printing so I’m talking 2-4 extruders larger than me pushing into the same hot end) and pushing it through a set of filters because the smoke is really bad with some of the materials we work with I can’t really fit a system like this onto my bedroom printer due it it’s odd size and being my bedroom so instead I’ve reversed the cooling fans and have filters placed on them so it sucks the smoke into the fan and filter instead of dissipating the smoke Seems to work just fine unless I’m running 1500mm/s
To be clear, CFRP (Carbon Fiber Reinforced Plastic) has a place in an engineering context. It increases stiffness, and when properly formulated it also increases strength. If you have an application where it is necessary, you should absolutely consider using it. The last half of the video proposes some simple solutions that manufacturers and users can adopt to improve safety, should you want to print with CFRP.
My concern is that it is being marketed to beginners as a way to improve surface finish or print quality, without clearly communicating the risks. This is especially the case for CF-PLA, which in my opinion, has no legitimate use-cases compared to regular PLA. The issue of fibers coming loose, embedded in skin, etc. outweighs the cosmetic benefit for printing trinkets, toys, or non-structural parts.
What about metal filled filaments, like the Protopasta metal filled iron and stainless steel? What are the risk with that?
I completely agree with you, and that's exactly how I understood the video.
I think it's good that someone is addressing this!
@@worshaw Metal filled filaments are probably less harmful.
The particles will be more spherical instead of straight rods, so they won't cause splinters. But still use caution when sanding or grinding to prevent inhalation. That should be a priority for any sanding operation.
Maybe if it was lead filled it would be dangerous.
@@NathanBuildsRobots I have something coming up where metal filled might be a candidate, saw this and maybe me wonder. Descriptions online sounds like it’s ground or shaved , which made me think of burrs and metal dust after seeing the carbon fiber.
@@worshaw Yes, you may get some metal particle around, but there are a few factors making metals safer.
1) Density and particle size mean it is unlikely to become airborne.
2) The particles will be not be sharp and pointy, so they are unlikely to burrow into your skin
3) Unlike glass and pure carbon, metals will oxidize and break down over time.
Another point: Carbon fibers are extremely light so they easily become airborne. Which is not good in combination with most prints needing some post processing - removing supports/brims and filing for proper fits, or god forbid sanding.
I work in a factory that produces Carbon Fiber racing boats, and I can definitely confirm sanding and cutting is uncomfortable. It's probably not super dangerous, and honestly I'm the only one who seems to care enough to wear a mask when cutting, ripping drilling, or sanding CF with power tools, but it's definitely a nuisance. Even as I'm writing this I can feel the fibers prick my skin from today's work.
Pro tip: take a cold shower if you got it on you. Hot water only opens your pores and lets the fibers get stuck. Cold water does a better job.
@@Ashley-1917 You keep wearing the mask mate, it will prove to be a wise move in time.
Wet sanding helps a lot there. The water binds (almost all?) of the dust and prevent it becoming airborne.
@@rynnjacobs8601 It also keeps the plastic cool and rigid, that's a nice bonus as this helps with the sandability (PLA when dry sanded will warm up due to the friction and become rubbery, and become hard to sand).
Perfect whistle material
Ex composite materials engineer here, carbon fibres are not joke once the get in your skin they don’t come out. They have micro barbs that make the get trapped and the skin just grows over them and buries. Always wear gloves when handling and you want a table with vacuum extraction from underneath for cutting and preparing. I have a pice of carbon fibre in my finger it’s been there for 18 years😂. Also don’t get carbon dust in anything electric as it can short.
Are Nitrile Gloves enough to protect your skin?
@@fuijika yes they will be, we use to ware two pairs of thick nitrile gloves when working with the matting or a part that needed to be finished.
Got splinters a few times myself, but thankfully, I was working with cured resin and could pull it out without too much difficulty, but definitely a lot of stress! Had double gloved with nitrile gloves too!
Sigh, I don't have a microscope to verify if anything got permanently stuck, but I've handled carbon fiber filament. Well now I know. No more Carbon Fiber filament.
Too bad, because I don't have a good way right now to prevent Polycarbonate from warping with large prints.
Glass does the same too
I want cyanide infused filaments with strawberry-mint flavor.
😂😂😂
Only if the prints are stronger thought I'll mostly use it for printing calibration cubes and benchies
scented filament would be nice
You're not allowed that, strawberry-mint flavouring is banned in California under Proposition 65.
Top it with some of that Wintogreen flavoured toilet bowl cleaner. Yum.
"you're saying i can reinforce MYSELF with carbon fiber?! hell yeah!"
We either evolve to use them, or we don’t ;)
Project X 💪🦾
Maybe treat it to be 110% biocompat carbon fiber first before integrating it in your lenses yo.
Yeah try it and tell me in 5-10 years how it goes once that carbon fibre causes you cancer !!! This stuff is no joke
@@kingarthurthe5th or they evolve to use us!
After watching this video I took one of my cf-asa printed parts under the microscope. What I see is that most of the fibers are embedded in the plastic, however most is not all, there are still some fibers sticking out, being able to get picked up into your skin. So I'd say even for printed parts treat them with the same precautions as unprinted filament, up until you've sealed the part. (effectively clear coat every cf print to make them safer for handling.)
Thank you for checking and sharing your experience! We need to crowdsource the research on this because clearly the manufacturer's aren't doing it.
I just commented asking for this vary same test to be done. Kinda wish it was in the video
About 20 years ago I was into archery. They teach you to inspect your arrows before every shot. I was shooting aluminium arrows and when shooting an ultra light tube with a tiny dent in it out of a 70lbs bow .. they can fail, and bits go right through the hand holding the bow. A friend was shooting carbon fibre, siting how much stronger they were for the weight ... so I looked into it. Turns out carbon fibre arrows can also fail, even more spectacularly. The problem being that bits of aluminium driven into your hand appear on an x-ray. Carbon fibre does NOT appear on an x-ray. So to get all the bits out, they literally have to sit with a microscope and poke out every tiny black dot amidst all the blood and torn flesh. Anything they miss will still be there decades later, poking you every time you move the hand. Needless to say, I'm still shooting aluminium.
yes! Inspect with your ears too, bend each arrow before you knock it and listen for defects
I was hand-sanding a 1mm cf rod (really dumb in retrospection) and stabbed it about an inch into a fingertip at an angle. Of course, it broke off. I removed most of it right away but it splintered when it broke. After festering for 4 months I removed another 1 inch piece. That was 6 months ago. There is still at least one more piece in there. I can feel it move and it hurts. I can even see the tip move just under my skin. One day I'll cut it out too. Use caution with cf, boys and girls!
@@jellogiant WHAT? Oh...okay. I thought you were going to say to drag the arrows across your ear to detect splinters.
@@ernie5229please see a doctor
As an asbestos attorney, I'll add this to my list of horrifying new things right below Forever Chemicals.
Do you think there will be a fibre glass lawsuit at some point?
@@jonathanshaw8868 It's a good question. Although not my area of expertise, I can speak to a few things.
Unlike asbestos, fiberglass does not appear to persist in the lungs or other tissues. Most studies have shown that fiberglass is less likely to cause long-term health issues. The primary concerns are skin, eye, and respiratory irritation.
There are already established guidelines and safety measures for handling fiberglass. OSHA and other regulatory bodies have set exposure limits to minimize risks.
There have been some lawsuits related to fiberglass exposure, mostly involving short-term irritations or specific conditions under certain circumstances. However, these cases have not reached the scale of asbestos litigation due to the difference in health impacts.
Continued research and any emerging evidence of long-term health risks associated with fiberglass could change the landscape. If new studies show significant health risks, it could lead to more extensive litigation.
As is often the case, as public awareness and scientific understanding evolve, any new findings about the risks of fiberglass exposure could influence legal actions.
@@jonathanshaw8868 It's a good question. Although not my area of expertise, I can speak to a few things.
Unlike asbestos, fiberglass does not appear to persist in the lungs or other tissues. Most studies have shown that fiberglass is less likely to cause long-term health issues. The primary concerns are skin, eye, and respiratory irritation.
There are already established guidelines and safety measures for handling fiberglass. OSHA and other regulatory bodies have set exposure limits to minimize risks.
There have been some lawsuits related to fiberglass exposure, mostly involving short-term irritations or specific conditions under certain circumstances. However, these cases have not reached the scale of asbestos litigation due to the difference in health impacts.
Continued research and any emerging evidence of long-term health risks associated with fiberglass could change the landscape. If new studies show significant health risks, it could lead to more extensive litigation.
As is often the case, as public awareness and scientific understanding evolve, any new findings about the risks of fiberglass exposure could influence legal actions.
@jonathanshaw8868 Sorry I though I already responded to this but let me do that again now.
While both fiberglass and asbestos pose health risks, there are significant differences between the two. Fiberglass exposure can cause irritation to the skin, eyes, and respiratory system, but it hasn't been conclusively linked to severe long-term health effects like mesothelioma or lung cancer, which are associated with asbestos. As a result, fiberglass regulations are less stringent compared to the heavy restrictions and bans placed on asbestos in many countries.
Asbestos has led to extensive litigation, becoming one of the longest and most expensive mass torts in U.S. history. In contrast, fiberglass-related lawsuits have been relatively limited and typically focus on workplace exposure and safety measures. However, as awareness of fiberglass exposure risks grows and more scientific research is conducted, there could be an increase in litigation, especially if new evidence links fiberglass to serious health conditions.
Employers in industries using fiberglass need to ensure proper safety measures to protect workers, which could mitigate the potential for lawsuits. While fiberglass currently doesn't have the same level of legal action as asbestos, the landscape could change with continued research and heightened awareness.
Let me know if I can help in any other way. Be safe out there.
Good to see this kinda stuff being brought up. We are so use to stuff we buy being vetted as safe, but these printing materials can be a real toss up about how toxic or dangerous they can be if we use them every day. I work in an asbestos testing lab, and needle-like particles like that are pretty hazardous when inhaled over time.
And everyone prints in unventilated indoor areas. Like wtf.
Marty, Thank you for your comment. There seem to be similarities, and it's a conductor. Southern California?
I printed carbon fiber filaments in my living space (including my bedroom) and had to sneeze often after printing carbon fiber filaments and also when handling freshly printed parts. I found a lot of little tiny carbon fiber parts in my snot under a microscope. they were all of equal length... so they were not broken off, but they were the actual milled carbon fibers being released from the filament.
rip
Uhf, better take out some high end medical aid and delete this comment so the insurance adjuster's dont find out it's a pre-existing condition...
This seems very odd, the printing process shouldn't kick the fibres up into the air and carbon fibres of that kind of size are probably too large to be suspended in the air, dust from sanding or milling is different though. What brand of filament were you using and what were you printing it on?
@@SidekickElementsThis is such an american problem. Honestly crazy how you deal with that bs.
@@swecreations hehehe, actually in South Africa. There is public medical care, but it's really bad, you won't survive a serious illness on public medical care...
I guess one other problem could be printing some carbon fiber filament. Then you switch to regular PLA cause you need to print something that is safe, and carbon fiber stuck in the PTFE tubes or gears of your printer contaminates the supposedly safe PLA.
If that does happen then the amount of carbon fibre that contaminates the safe PLA will be very low and will be at its highest right at the start of the filament which you should purge anyway.
Also if you need to guarantee something is safe for child, medical or food use you should have a nozzle (ideally whole hotend) dedicated for it anyway.
@@conorstewart2214 I think things like the filament cutter and extruder gears will work some fibers loose and they will be floating around inside of your enclosed printer, and lofted into the air by the powerful part cooling fans.
@@conorstewart2214 Not true. I used quite a bit of cf-pla then switched to white pla later. It took FOREVER to stop coming out light grey. It never did come out solid pure white. The grey was clearly visible the whole length of the tube.
I had a similar realization (albeit just Microplastics in general, not CF) once i got a powerful UV light
Fibers from plastic textiles EVERYWHERE. I dread if i can see weedwacker dust at work from the “neon orange string trimmer line”.
Granted carbon fiber and ESPECIALLY carbon nanotubes are way more concerning than microplastics due to the barbs and fibrous nature as someone else pointed out in these comments. I’m glad you raised more awareness on all this, great video as always!
Be safe out there y’all !
Yep, I try to buy 100% cotton and wool textiles as often as possible. Look no further than the dryer lint collector to see how much sheds off of your clothes and bedding.
@@NathanBuildsRobots Rayon/Viscose is a neat option too! Can be made from anything cellulose.
If @thethoughtemporium gets around the releasing the files as Open Source and/or if i get impatient+motivated and get a wet spinning setup going i would LOVE to make my own!
I appreciate the video. As a guy working on a full Iron Man suit made of carbon fiber nylon, I'll be taking some additional safety precautions and make sure I seal the prints on the inside and outside.
Good, you don't want to become carbon fiber man
Work safety is normally ignored by hobbyists. I allways run my 3D Printer in a well ventilated, closed room. And I don't use resin printers because the effort which is needed to make it safe is too high. Also with lasercutters (especial CO2). It's like driving a motorbike. Good protection equipment is crucial...
Thank you for your comment. Some 3D technology seems to have been rushed to market. It's great to embody an item quickly, but the operator exposure seems a considerable downside.
It’s crazy how common this cheap diode laser engravers are and people will just use them with no enclosure
its literally not that bad.
zero people had died from 3d printing related "hazards". you people are so paranoid that you think one infinitesimal minor thing can cause life debilitating issue or death.
there hasn't been one study that proves off gassing filament or resin is dangerous.
people have been working in plastic injection plants for decades. working right next to machines that squeeze out tons of plastic a day with little to no ventilation and what has that caused? apparently nothing if ohsha isn't forcing these workers to use gas masks or vents directly above the machine.
and lasers how many people have you heard died from bonfire wood smoke a year? they're exposed to billions time more smoke than a laser cutter can output in a month.
@@goatpepperherbaltea7895 Yeah, or some CO2 lasers gave gallium-arsenic mirrors. If they are getting dirty this stuff is blown in the air... first think then work.
too much generalization :( you hurt my feelings
The good thing is that carbon fiber is bio compatible and wont trigger carcinogenic processes and wont make the immune system go nuts like asbestos, but yet, in the lungs can make permanent dmg to the tissues
I'm not sure if asbestos is carcinogen per-se or if cancer develops due to tissue being damaged by tiny needles causing inflammation or something. Because some diseases can develop even when lungs are exposed to other dust such as in quarries. Asbestos is basically from many of minerals that can crystalize into long, thin whiskers under certain conditions. But I assume fibrous glass is not healthy either, but risk may be lower, cause not so many particles are airborne.
One key aspect of asbestos that makes it unique, is that when you're dealing with friable asbestos, it can easily be pulverized into incredibly tiny particles. Not only do they easily become airborne, but they also can remain suspended in the air with little to no air movement for very long periods of time.
I appreciate you discussing how similar these carbon fiber filments can be to asbestos as far as how easily they can contaminate your skin and surfaces within your work area, but it'd be very interesting to find out easily they become airborne and how long those fibers can remain suspended in the air.
Another interesting fact, the way asbestos is defined, requires a specific ratio of length to width of the fiber. If its not long and thin enough, it can't legally be called asbestos.
It's a very well studied area. People who actually work with carbon fiber in an industrial capacity can attest to the amount of protection used when dealing with stuff directly. Weaves are fine, they hold together as one piece. But any modification cutting sanding etc is all done in bunny suit + respirator + gloves.
The filaments and prints are assumed safe because the fibers are embedded in the plastic. But it's only an assumption that they bond well enough to not slide out if they're exposed on the surface.
Either way, it's a PSA that the only post processing that should be done to CF filaments is painting or sealing directly and absolutely no sanding.
I would love for you to test a few different brands of PLA and PETG filaments (stuff that people use all the time) and see how much toxic they are and whether there are differences between brands.
I would love that you look into glas fiber to
It'd be similar. The precautions for working with fiberglass and carbon fiber aren't too different.
The more I look into reinforced plastics in general, the more I despise them. It's not just that this stuff can hurt you and your loved ones when it's made and in use. It's also nigh impossible to recycle or dispose of, and harming the people working in or living near recycling plants and landfills.
Consumer plastics should be banned, period.
@@thekraken1173 : Many common fabrics are wholly or partially comprised of plastic filaments.
@@kevinpezzi6777 And? People lived before plastic fabrics too.
@thekraken1173 Hey plastic is still a useful material. It's one thing to ban single use plastics but to ban all plastic is illogical and irrational. Calm down Greta Thunbergs boyfriend. The world is not ending in 10 years. And cow farts do not cause global warming.
Thank you, I was planning on buying some PLA CF but this stopped me. My prof used to mill Carbon fiber and told us the dust would pierce our lungs. Thank you have you probably saved a lot of us from the hospital
The main concerns with carbon fibre is very short fibres and dust getting into your lungs which isn't very likely with 3D printing filled filaments. PLA CF is mostly a waste of time anyway, CF or other reinforcements only make sense once their are no non filled alternatives or you are using higher end filaments like fibre reinforced nylons or polycarbonates.
Nice demo and list of what not to print with CF filament. Could you please also look at glass fiber filament?
I am also curious about this.
it's pretty much the same with glass fibers
@@cosmic_cupcakeI'd like to learn more: do you have any recommendations of resources I can check out, concerning GF reinforced filaments?
@@ultramegax I would look at safety resources for fiberglass insulation as well as for regular fiberglass molding, the concerns should be similar and information is plentiful. Can't link anything because youtube doesn't like that, but a google search should yield plenty of results.
@@iguanamoat Will do! Thank you!
This makes me glad that in 10 years of 3D printing I’ve never used CF reinforced filaments. However I can’t take credit for knowing this or anything, I just considered it a gimmick because I work with materials and couldn’t see how tiny pieces of carbon fiber in the molten plastic would make the end result stronger by an appreciable amount
And all these microplastics end up in our drinking water, our bodies, in animals, fish and oceans, everywhere. We need to look at outputs, not just inputs.
I work with cf on and off over the years and know about the risks. This is why i never used any fiber infused filaments.
The smoke you talk about at the end may or may not be smoke. If your filament has absorbed moisture and is now being pushed through a 250°C nozzle that water turns into a 35x bigger volume of steam and bursts out of it. If there is really a lot of it in the filament you can hear a sound like eggs frying in a pan as the individual bubbles break and you can see the stream of molten material is not nice and smooth. But even at lower percentage of moisture you can see the vapour escaping and the amount of it is directly proportional to the flow rate of the filament through the nozzle.
You of course can actually burn stuff and have real smoke. But that needs temperatures significantly out of range for the given filament and it also tends to keep on smoking when the flow through the nozzle stops because there is still more plastic being burned inside the overly hot nozzle. With extra high flow this kind of smoke tends to diminish because less plastic has time to get to the temperature where it smokes. If you are making such smoke your print also tends to come out weak and fragile because some parts of the polymer were destroyed in the nozzle and the rest does not have the mechanical properties you would expect from the given type of filament.
There are applications where having the fibers in the filament is needed. For example right now I am trying to print a holder for a robot battery pack. The print is almost 400mm long and needs to keep its mechanical properties at 70°C with some margin. I am trying ASA-CF but in my experience any filament that softens at 90°C or higher also likes to warp a lot when you try to print large objects with it, even in enclosed printers. Having the fibers in the filament means the warping is gone or almost gone and the large print is actually possible.
With all the other stuff we are exposed to every day I am not about the start worrying about a few carbon fibers from occasionally touching such filament. The diesel car that overtook me on a dusty road when I was cycling yesterday probably did way more damage to me. That doesn't mean I will ignore the risk and go lick a carbon fiber infused printed parts. But I think every risk should be taken with some perspective to it. If I were to handle such filament for work 8 hours a day every day then the extra clothing, gloves and respirators would make sense. They wear this in factories where they do cutting and sanding of carbon fiber composite parts for airplanes and such (I've been there a few times). But if I print out one spool of this stuff every 6 months and use it for parts that are not being touched by anyone in their normal use I don't think there is a need to freak out about it.
This is a great take (I wish I had seen it before ordering couple of carbon fiber and glass fiber reinforced filaments, lol). I was just thinking about the PTFE tubes and how they are considered another wear item, which means that it is being slowly eroded and getting airborne or contaminating the printed objects. PTFE (Teflon) is a 'forever chemical', our body can't get rid of it so this one also is a potential risk factor.
That is a great point. If it’s wearing down, it’s going probably being turned to dust and embedded in prints and in the air
When we were trained to splice fibres they warned us that the shards if they got into your skin would be absorbed and slowly make their way to your heart over the years, I wonder if the same thing would happen in this case. They're certainly just as fine as shards of fibre optic cable.
Thats a good analogy, the same standards should probably apply
From Fluke:
The fiber at the center of a fiber optic cable is glass - powerful yet delicate, and capable of inflicting great injury when damaged or broken. Control hazardous glass fragments from a job by keeping yourself, and your work area, very clean.
• Wear safety glasses with side shields (over your eyeglasses, if you wear them) to help keep fiber shards from reaching your eyes. Keep your hands away from your face while you’re working, and always wash your hands thoroughly before touching your face or contact lenses.
• Wear a disposable lab apron to reduce the chances of fiber splinters collecting on your clothing and transferring to other surfaces (or taking a ride home with you).
• Don’t allow food or beverages in the work area (don’t smoke there, either). Not only can particles from your lunch break contaminate your work, fragments of fiber are impossible to see but easy to ingest if they fall into your food - which could lead to internal hemorrhage and even death.
• Make sure your work area is well ventilated to help prevent tiny glass particles from disturbed fiber cable from becoming airborne and being inhaled.
• Dispose of all fiber cable scraps properly in a labeled container with a secure lid.
• Make sure there’s adequate clearance around any spark hazards or heat sources, such as fusion splicers and curing ovens, to reduce the chance of fire.
• Clean up at the end of the day to control fiber fragments and keep everyone on the job safe.
Scary thought.
But I would argue, that carbon probably is much easier for the body to dissolve, than glass ... but again, what do I know?
No.. it would not.
THE problem with asbest is and was, that the fibres split longitudinal. Carbon, Glass and so on do not and get ejected by the skin over time. asbest would just get thiner and will be able to puncture everything in your body and get everywhere.
@@ZappyOh carbon-carbon bonds are really strong and generally hard to break down. Doing some searching suggests that myeloperoxidase may be able to break it down in human bodies, though I'm not sure how effective that would actually be in practice.
@@hanswurstusbrachialus5213 That's terrifying
You are quite correct.
Many people using these carbon fibre content filaments, do not know the dangers of what they are playing with.
You should where appropriate PPE, and as a minimum gloves and a mask FFP3 or better.
The composites industry does not where all that gear for the look!
If I print with a fibre containing filament, I seal the finished item with clear lacquer.
Thanks! Could you maybe try if its the same with glass fibre?
Can you do a similar video with glass filled filaments?
Good idea!
The rubbing off in a finished product, or while handling filament isn’t scary in the slightest bit. What is scary, is you’re usually using some pretty powerful fans on a good printer during prints, which is lofting it into the air continuously.
That's a good point. The fans blowing things all over the place aren't going to help make things safer.
I'm going to check the bottom of the filament bag to see if there is a little pile of CF fragments in there.
Well, asbestos is really something completely different. But caution is applied indeed.
asbestos filled filament would be wild
@@xapu8775 Asbestos infused PEEK filament.
Can one do Asbestos?
@@platin2148 No, it has been banned in UK.
Yes and no. You don't need to go down all the way to < 100 nm of the individual fibers. Some people seem to like sanding their prints as well and having non-resorbable PM2.5 particles is bad enough.
In my work with carbon fiber I've seen PAN carbon fibers with ~5 µm diameter shatter lengthwise to create smaller splinters with lengths a few times their cross sectional dimension.
Lower density, but probably similar persistent needle-like foreign body effects when inhaled.
The filament may be dangerous, but what about parts that have already been printed? If you rub printed parts on your skin, do you see the same embedded fibers occur? Thanks for the video.
Yep, highly likely, so theyr mentioned in the video to coat finished parts with epoxy, for example.
I actually don't think manufacturers will mind. This isn't a deterrent. Nylon, ABS, and Resin are all nasty. It's about education and preparation when working with interesting materials.
What's wrong with nylon?
@@infernaldaedra pretty sure it gives off poisonous gases, but I might be misremembering
@@da3dsoul it can give some off during the printing process but nowhere near PTFE
Great discussion. Thanks for sharing!
Very valid concerns! Thank you for highlighting this issue, that I was not really aware of
You will not believe what happens to people who work in a machine shop/ work with composites 😂😂😂
My friend at work said he wasn't allowed to get an MRI for over a year after he stopped working there because of the steel dust in his pores.
Either way this doesn't actually harm you all that much, just don't breathe it in.
I'm against these crap carbon fiber filaments. They're great for stabilizing things like Nylon, but in general they aren't providing any strength in the Z axis, where 3D prints are the weakest anyways. They're largely a gimmick. They tear your printers up, the fibers aren't long enough to really matter, just in general it's a crap product. The only machine/process worth doing anything with carbon fiber, is Markforged. They embed long carbon fibers directly into the center of the thermoplastic, and have a special cutter to slice the continuous strand.
Glad to see you doing more content like this - your channel has gotten better and better.
This is good general info, as someone who likes to engineer things and actually enjoys the ideal of slightly more exotic filaments, PP, ASA, Varioshore, Nylon etc. I've actually complete avoided CF, the closest I have is PA6-GF and I've not even opened that one yet, likely will do so with gloves or handle it only through a paper towel now, to be safe. And obviously be careful WHAT it's used for as the end-print. (Obviously not a fidget spinner.)
You should always be aware of the risks no matter what you do. Woodworking, 3d printing, welding, painting, ....
There are safety regulations in the industry for a reason. You can often significantly improve safety in your hobby workshop with little effort. Your health should be worth it.
You should also check if this applies to glass fiber filaments.
Great vid as always. I print 90+% in just plain old PLA. The obsession with carbon or glass filaments for objects that don't need it frustrates me as well. I have only 2-3 designs over 5+ years that have really benefited from fiber-filled filament. I think the biggest challenge is getting folks to understand that there is no "strongest" or "best" filament. Everyone wants to just find the "best" filament, and use it for everything rather than learn the different properties of different materials and think how those properties relate to the application.
I don't understand the hype of CF filaments, for most use cases. But when I need a super strong, resilient part (especially one that is quite small), I look to GF-Nylon. So if that's equally problematic, that's unfortunate. I'll have to do some research on it.
I usually try to minimise costs and make parts as easy to print as possible so that automatically eliminates most CF filaments unless I really need it. I have found a good middle ground in terms of cost and performance is PC. Significantly stronger than PLA, almost as stiff, less brittle and can handle higher temperatures whilst printing well and working with a 0.2 mm nozzle if I need it to.
Most of my prints are also PLA though, especially first prints to test fit and function unless it is a tiny part.
@@conorstewart2214 I need to try regular plain old PC
Thanks for this information. Being able to make an informed decision is always a good thing.
Shared to a 3d printing group on facebook.
Nice video! Simple engineering talk and backed by evidence. You're absolutely right about people not taking h&s seriously in this space. It was the same when I was a technician in one of the best universities in the world, absolute joke. Best thing is to not take the risk yourself.
Not enough people talk about safety in 3D printing. Subbed.
That's unfortunate, pa6cf is one of the few materials I've found that can actually handle the temperature and chemicals my projects deal with. It opens up a lot of part design that would otherwise be impossible, and was the sole reason for picking up 3d printing.
I think I'll be coating and potting pa6cf parts from here out, so it's good info. Thanks for sharing it.
Have you tried any other Nylon derivatives?
Glass Filled Nylon might be an option? (It can also be equally dangerous to your health though if not handled in a well ventilated area with incredibly strong filtered extraction.)
Maybe some other plastic or polymer other than Nylon?
Could you make your parts out of another material that's entirely different and just use the 3D Printing Process to create the moulds needed to shape the final part?
I'm sure that alternatives do exist, you might just need to rethink how you're creating the parts in order to find an equally viable but much safer material to create your parts from.
Whatever you end up doing do NOT disregard the dangers of Carbon Fibre, Other Fibre Materials, &, Micro Plastics, all three of these material types are VERY BAD for our respiratory and gut health, and it is very important that you take the appropriate protective measures to look after your health and the health of EVERYTHING around you, be it people, pets, other wildlife, or even plants, these fibres can end up EVERYWHERE..!
Have a look at PPS. It is very chemically resistant and may be suitable for you if your printer can handle it.
These materials would probably be a lot safer if produced as multi layer coextrusion with an outer layer that's pure resin and the CF infused resin only in the inner layer.
Yeah but then you'd just be bonding the outer layers together, leaving a flat noodle of carbon inbetween. You want a homogeneous mix for the strength benefit.
7:13 oh here he talks about what you said. Ignore my previous comment.
I'm so glad someone eventually talks about this. I always had my concerns in regards of this stuff and seemingly I wasn't wrong about it. Never bought, never printed with fiber filament.
When receiving my samples from Bambulabs I even threw those samples (containing CF) away and washed off all the others. "I probably overreacted" but I simply can't deal with sh*t I can not see - and therefore not control.
You definitely overreacted if you washed down the other spools.
Also what does this video prove? That the fibres are there and come off, it says nothing about how dangerous or harmful they are or if they are even harmful at all, so I’d maybe slow down before jumping on something just to try and prove yourself right.
1:37 nice "water"
billions of needles, needles for me
PLA+ can be surprisingly strong. I've been using it for most of my prints including functional ones and from what I've heard CF-PLA isn't better at all because of how brittle it is. CF-Nylon is apparently one that does make sense as carbon fiber not only makes it stronger but also less prone to warping but this is the first time I see anyone considering its safety. People usually just talk about the need to use hardened steel nozzle and slower print speeds when listing its downsides. Now I have one more reason to never use it unless absolutely necessary.
One thing you can do to mitigate risk is to use a sealant layer on the externals of your parts, and to avoid any overly spiky or abrupt geometries in your parts. I wouldn't recommend printing a gear, for example (not that additional tensile strength would help with a gears durability to begin with).
I used to do Glass cutting, the shards you get off the carpeted cutting table daily we used to get out by soaking in hot soapy water, they do come out, you can see them in the bowl afterwards.
I agree that people over use it…. PLA for prototyping, nylon reinforced for mechanical models that need the reinforcement or needed to prevent warping. Main thing I see CF nylon used for is firearm and launcher models/frames.
THIS VIDEO IS HUGE NATHAN! Shout it out to the rooftops. I'd love a series on safety like this.
You can remove a large portion of the CF shards from your skin by applying tape to your skin to pull it off. I use clear packing tape. Otherwise you will feel pretty uncomfortable for days. You should use a simple barrier cream if you do this work though. OSHA hasn't decided officially yet on its hazardous rating in terms of being a carcinogen as far as I know
Not terribly worried about the stuff that gets on the skin, but the prospect of inhalation is scarier. Just printing with it occasionally almost certainly not a big deal, but if you ran this stuff on a print farm daily it would be bad news. I do think there are concerns around using fiber filled filament, but it's nowhere near Asbestos levels of dangerous.
As for uses of fiber reinforced materials, there are many. For PLA it is primarily aesthetic as it hides layer lines and produces a nice finish, but it can also be stiffer and it tends to be high flowing. For Nylon it is primarily less warping and also more stiffness rather than elasticity. PETG and other filaments, generally a mix of the above benefits.
This was the first thing we were teached in the composite materials course about carbon fibre.
I think it should be pointed out that these fibers are far larger than the asbestos fibers that cause cancer. So they won't pose the same risk that asbestos poses, but any small non-degradable particle is a lung hazard.
When you print, your printer releases microplastic and fumes.
This is dangerous too.
Build an enclosure. Extract all fumes outside.
Buy a cyclone vacuum cleaner.
Mop your floors.
Make your bed
Thank you for the research your doing, definitely important safety concerns! I was quite unaware of the carbon fiber hazards. Thank you again, and will consider this greatly.
Does what about glass fibre composite filaments? Do they have dangerous fibres under a microscope too?
Also be careful about the chorking caused by UV degradation. Especially bright color base.
I had a terrible experience with PP-30%GF
Do videos testing air quality please
Excellent good job pointing out safety which many forget to think about.
How does it taste tho?
Why haven’t you looked at printed parts only on filament? Would be interesting to know if the printed parts loose fibres as much.
Fibres in filament are typically 0.03-0.3 mm long. 0.5 mm would be already too long to work reliably with standard nozzles. Essentially it is fibre-dust.
Carbon-filled filament typically is less strong than the base-material, but the carbon-fibres make it more stiff and reduces thermal expansion. The main advantages are:
‣ It makes warp-happy filament like PA a lot easier to print.
‣ It looks cool.
‣ The parts get lighter
‣ The parts get stiffer
After watching this video I took one of my cf-asa prints under the microscope. What I see is that most of the fibers are embedded in the plastic, however most is not all, there are still some fibers sticking out, being able to get picked up into your skin. So I'd say treat printed parts with the same precautions as unprinted filament, up until you've sealed the part. (effectively clear coat every cf print to make them safer for handling.)
The best way to add CF reinforcement to a print is to design in channels in your print where you can lay/wrap down some carbon fiber thread and epoxy it in place. It is going to be way stronger than CF reinforced filament, safer to use, and wont wear out your nozzle.
You can also pause a print, drop some carbon fiber chop and epoxy into the low% infil, and then resume once it hardens. That's a super easy way to do it.
I've never printed with CFRP but this video ensures that I'll never will print with those. I simply don't need it.
And here I was thinking about getting a spool. It does make really lovely prints, but overall it’s weaker than standard filament from the test I have seen. Not worth the risk.
nothing a nice coat of varnish/lacquer or other clearcoat can't prevent.... just that most people don't invest the time effort to post process their parts.
How about a clear-coat on the filament?
Grateful that you shared this
Holy s. Thanks for this video. I printed petg-cf switch controller "holders" for my kids. Those will go into the trash straight away. I was very naive to assume that the fibers would be completely sealed in the petg. Thank you for showing me this.
What's the significance of this? What are you worried is going to happen to your body?
Exactly, very little information on this video other than the fact that the fibres exist. Nothing about whether or not the fibres are actually harmful.
Thanks for the insight. I think if I ever printed in CF, I'd just spray paint with something and keep it all enclosed.
Nanoparticles are problem with regular laser printers too. Don't try to wash it with warm water. If you look even closer, there is a million small bacteria that are trying to eat it away :D
I have an X1C but I never use CF filaments because I know it wears the components down faster lol. I just use regular PLA because i'm basic like that
I showed a friend a print from PLA CF and he screamed: “you know that CF in the air has the same effect as asbestos ?!?!” Got me thinking. Now your video. I think I’m gonna quit printing CF materials, although on one special design it’s toughness was really needed 😢
That really hasn’t been proven for 3D printing though. Yes sanding or cutting CF produces dust and particles that are bad for you but this isn’t the same.
good point
Thank you for this material.
Hey buddy
Best video you have made
Great logic and find
I am impressed and this will change the industry
finally someone said it
I would be more worried about the continual handling that would introduce any airborne particles. Do all the printers use a proper air filter on their heat exhaust fans? Storing reels near a vent or fan would be the biggest worry. I'd say that is a strong reason to set up shop in a garage, not like a craft room expansion.
I noticed that when feeding my CF into the printer I could feel the 'roughness' but didn't realise those little pieces break off and get all over. Thanks for the video, I will be more careful now. Luckily I have just bought a X1 Carbon and also have an external filtration system too and will use this setup for anything volatile. Anything with fibers in it will get onto your skin, air, clothing and everywhere else I guess unless properly trapped with a filtration system.
It would be interesting to see if similar granular embedded particles if you ran your hands over copper, aluminium wire. Having worked with many different materials it pretty much always feels like particles are embedded into your skin (eyes and lungs) if not using correct PPE.
Asbestos was banned cause the fibres were way thinner than common carbon fibre and other materials aaand people were ignoring the problem. Even when they knew the danger people often didn't wear protective equipment. Rockwool and Glasswool are also known to be rather damaging to the lungs (specially as they often have nasty chemical coatings) but the research into those was cut a bit short. Still not something you want to work with without at least a high quality mask.
And with fibre reinforced materials (be it filament or others) you absolutely want a respirator if you are sanding them and, as you covered, not want that to come into contact with food or other things that will come into contact with sensitive areas (i have seen a 3D printed Carbonfibre toiletseat .... have fun)
That "smoke" is probably steam from wet filament. You don't get it with most materials properly dried unless you get it build up on the outside of the nozzle where it's exposed to air at high temp and will gradually oxidize.
Thank you for bringing this to our attention!
Great video, thank you for sharing!
Good information to consider especially not needing small strands to go airborne and get inhaled. I also noticed your MK4 with MMU3 and the Sunlu S4 filament dryer. I have the same but the dryer isn't setup yet to help keep at least 4 filaments for the MMU3 dry and ready. I have a Creality Pi dryer fir the 5th as well but I'll need to find a good place to set all of them up for convenience.
I have it set up so that 4 filaments are on the sunlu, and if I need a specific filament I can just put it up top on the normal spool holder
I find these educational videos invaluable. It's crucial that we dispel the misconception that 3D printing is entirely safe; there are real health considerations we need to raise awareness about. I've noticed firsthand the blackening of hotend nozzles over time due to the smoke emissions you mentioned, underscoring the presence of potentially harmful substances from 3D printers.
What "real health considerations" were mentioned here? Just that the fibres exist, nothing about whether they are harmful or how harmful they are.
@@conorstewart2214 Yeah the video highlights the existence of fibers and emissions during 3D printing, which is a valid concern. While it may not delve deeply into the specific health risks, it's a starting point for raising awareness right?
@@zakariakhamees it is not a new concern and there is still no evidence that they are harmful.
I am curious to see if this is more of an issue with certain brands or if all brands are created equal when it comes to shedding carbon fibers?
Siraya Tech Fibreheart filament doesn't have the fibres on the edges of the filament and I'd consider it a mandatory safety feature for fibre based filaments now, and really should only be used for printability and stiffness, theres absolutely no need for PLA-CF as a result
True. Glad you made this video
Can you make a short version?
Your video gets better watched whole, when you like it suggested to many people😉
Your cause is of such kind, where this video should go viral.
Anybody else actively post-processing carbon fiber 3D prints while watching this video?
I’m going to turn my dremel up to 11. Go big or go home!
@@NathanBuildsRobots your video did make me hunt down some gloves, at least!
@@NathanBuildsRobots you know what, maybe they really should put real asbestos into filaments. Pretty sure the fuel cooker I bought on Am*zon has some of it as well. I'm convinced it slipped past customs. It's not over yet. So if you really want to shake hands with danger, make that happen ;)
Well this was no surprise. I have no doubt other, non-carbon fiber filaments will end up in places we don't want them in, in small particles and strands just like this, only in fewer amounts. Think of stringing for example... And what about POM dust from printers with POM wheels? Isn't that basically solid formaldehyde?
Just read up on this, apparently delrin is safe unless exposed to strong acids, bases, or is burned when it releases formaldehyde
@@NathanBuildsRobots Ok, sounds... not so terrible. For a couple of years I worked at a CNC lathe where we would occasionally use POM (delrin) to make parts out of, and it would smell really weird and make a big mess with tiny chips and dust inside the machine every time. I bet it was the formaldehyde gas being released.
Normal black PLA makes black residue everywhere. I guess its graphite, or whatever they are using as a colorant that is shedding from the filament.
I have Creality Matte Black PLA, and that stuff has distinct "grainy" texture and a peculiar, strong odor to it, before, during, and after printing, which other matte filament doesn't have, even from the same brand (I've used green and grey Creality Matte PLA's).
Where I work we have shrouds over everything pulling all the air away from the extruders (we don’t do 3d printing so I’m talking 2-4 extruders larger than me pushing into the same hot end) and pushing it through a set of filters because the smoke is really bad with some of the materials we work with
I can’t really fit a system like this onto my bedroom printer due it it’s odd size and being my bedroom so instead I’ve reversed the cooling fans and have filters placed on them so it sucks the smoke into the fan and filter instead of dissipating the smoke
Seems to work just fine unless I’m running 1500mm/s
Oh fork. This is real reason to regulate this.