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Countertenors - Things you didn't know!
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- Опубликовано: 18 авг 2024
- For the footnotes and other extra information see the following link:
www.earlymusic...
0:00:00 INTRODUCTION
0:00:52 BASICS OF VOICE TYPES
0:03:23 RESEARCHING THE HISTORICAL COUNTERTENORS
0:05:42 SEVEN QUESTIONS ABOUT COUNTERTENORS
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Created by Elam Rotem, Lisandro Abadie and Tim Braithwaite, July 2020.
Special thanks to Álvaro Etcheverry and Anne Smith.
www.earlymusicsources.com
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A colleague of mine was a huge guy - 6’5" or 6’6" (196-198cm) tall and very heavy. He was a deep bass with a dark timbre. After I had sung with him for several years, he decided he wanted to be a countertenor instead. When he first performed as a countertenor, everyone was shocked; he had a very light, clear, focused sound. Nothing at all like his bass voice. It took a bit of getting used to seeing this giant guy singing a lilting soprano aria, but he was quite good at it. Unfortunately, roles for countertenors are rather scarce in the world of modern opera, so he ended up changing careers.
I’ve only ever performed in one opera that used a countertenor in a lead role. It was Jonathan Dove’s "Flight." It didn’t really go over well with the audience; I think the opera was musically strange enough that having the lead male character sounding like a soprano was a bit too much for most in the audience.
I was a professional singer as a bass/baritone having been a boy alto. Very early in my career I took part in a series of performances of Bach's Magnificat, singing g the bass aria. At one performance our (female) alto failed to appear, and nobody from the (amateur) choir was willing to step forward. Having sung the alto aria as a boy, I volunteered to sing the alto part in falsetto. It probably sounded less than perfect, but we were able to perform the concert.😁
Cool story, bro
Russell oberlin
I really REALLY appreciate the objectivity to your explanations. My vocal coach was one who subscribed to the school of thought that falsetto and head voice were different because of the anatomical mechanisms needed to produce both voices. When I was a newer student of his, he would often say "you're slipping out of falsetto into head voice", and over time I would feel the difference. But then encountering other singers, I realized they came from the falsetto=head voice school of thought. It is a great conversation every time. #TeamCountertenor
I was once accompanying a voice lesson in which the instructor was explaining falsetto to the student, saying that it meant using only half the vibrating length of the vocal cords. When the student looked puzzled at this, remembering that he was also a guitarist, I spoke up, asking "do you ever play harmonics on the guitar?" "Yeah, sure, all the time!" he answered. So I said "this is doing that with your vocal cords." Realization dawned visibly on his face!
As a voice teacher, I am very favorably impressed by the accuracy of your explanations, and I also enjoyed the animations which added up for clarity. I'll surely share this video among my students.
One important factor you didn’t mention is that historically, boys’ voices changed much later than they do now. Bach had “boy” sopranos as old as 18 or 19, which would have eliminated much of the perceived issue with using boys for difficult music.
Curious - what is the reason for the acceleration in voice change?
@@sorrelbee113 probably the same reason girls are beginning to get their periods at 8 or eariler (that's considered precocious), the diets in a lot of people today triggers puberty quicker thanks to more meats and dairy in the diet (also the hormones farmers put in those animals)
@bzzy bee it's also a case of basic nutrition level, of raw caloric intake, rather than the content of the diet. To go through puberty, a child needs to reach a certain weight (essentially to have enough "spare resources" for growth and change). Modern children are much better (sometimes *too* much better) fed. It may not be the only reason for earlier onset of puberty in children today, but it is the main one.
Not having experienced puberty at the age of 18 is not normal and those boys were either castrated or severely malnourished.
Girls of nobility were often married once they got their period, so many were married at the ages 12 or 13 (or even younger) and they got their first child less than year later. They were most likely well fed, unlike commoners.
Great! Then again, I would say that, since you agree pretty-much with everything I wrote in my book 'The Supernatural Voice'! Just two points I might have added.
First, we should be wary of making a sharp distinction between 'chest' and 'falsetto' singers, since before the 19th century the majority of vocal methods encouraged singers to use (and blur) BOTH types of production. So, if we ask the question 'did Purcell's countertenors sing in chest or falsetto', we're really posing a false dilemma.
Second, many of the problems we have with accepting that high tenors could have sung alto lines, or falsettists could have sung Bach's soprano lines, stem from assuming that physiologically modern man is the same as historical man. Throughout history (and with a marked recent acceleration) men have been growing taller. Since there is a proven inverse correlation between human height and vocal pitch (full evidence provided in my book!) the average Renaissance or Baroque man would have been able to sing higher in their modal ('chest') voices.
Keep the good work going, Elam!
Thank you Simon! Both for the comment and your research!
Any French source you could give me regarding male height ? :) I've read some reports that Haute-contre have always been quite the rare breed of Tenors and that they were more likely to be found in the South of France. As for the height of the dudes who sung those kinds of roles at the Académie royale de musique, I only know of Pierre Chopelet's (who during his short career sung a lot of high pitched roles) height as being quite short.
@@tenor-haute-contre Heights of individuals (even if I knew them) would only constitute anecdotal evidence. (We all know individual short basses and tall tenors!) What my argument rested on was statistical evidence about average heights.
For example, both John Braham and Mayer Leon, recognised as leading 18th century English (and Jewish!) tenors, were noted for the quality of their falsetto. Hmm.
@simonravens8838
Do you mean that height is correlated with timbre and thus the key determinant of voice type? Or with actual ability to sing certain pitches? If the former, that makes a ton of sense ,given that the length between the lips and the top of the vocal folds is the largest determinant of the timbre of the voice. If that latter, then I'd be curious as to what mechanism is causing that in shorter people.
Thank you, counter-tenor is my favorite classical male voice, ever since I heard it for the first time at the Québec Summer Music festival. The late Allan Fast was performing at a gorgeous old church in Old Québec City, te setting and sound was perfection ❤
I sang as a boy chorister in an all male English cathedral choir - we always called the men who sang the alto part "altos". It was only years later when I was chatting with an older friend who sang in another choir that I learned the term "countertenor" - he looked quite horrified when I used the term "alto" to refer to male singers.
Countertenor sing in H1-H5 not F0.
Countertenors definitely don't just use their falsetto. Anything lower than middle C would likely be inaudible singing over an orchestra. Blending and chest voice are definitely still used.
Agree...
Diva sopranos said they never used their chest voice on low notes... they must have! it's a pride thing perhaps!
Hi! Thanks for your response - this is why we describe countertenors as male singers who 'mainly' use falsetto. However, we of course made some simplifications in dealing with such a complex subject, far more information and nuance can be found in the footnotes.
I don't think countretenors uses falsetto all throughout the range. I am one and I can use my chest voice up to around D#5 to F#5 depending on my quality of sleep. I'm not trained with my head voice, though, I can easily access my whistle but i don't venture too much on it and I prefer my chest singing range.
Yes, I have a recording of Andreas Scholl singing countertenor AND in his low voice in the same song.
I sometimes forget that people in the enlightenment had their hands in so many pools at the same time, Jean-Jacques Rousseau commenting on high tenors shouting
So you're saying enlightenment men were in fact renaissance men? ;)
@@Muzikman127 If I was a history major I wouldn't be here
@@james_subosits No I'm not criticising your history I was just making a joke :)
@@Muzikman127 ah I see
Rousseau actually was a composer (as well as a gazillion other things) - appreciated by Gluck and Mozart, no less.
His most famous work is probably "Le Devin du Village" (the village's soothsayer), a one act opera that is known for being the first piece in the repertory of the Académie Royale de Musique for which the text and music were by the same author. Beethoven re-arranged one of the duets from the opera as a solo song (not for countertenor!).
PDQ Bach made usage of yet another vocal part - the bargain counter tenor.
As well as the Basso Blotto
Hahahahaha
Haha - great composer too
Having heard "Iphigenia in Brooklyn" (one of PDQ's bargain-counter-tenor pieces), it seems to me that the term simply refers to a counter-tenor who also uses his chest voice and extends it to a very low register. Being thus able to cover alto, tenor and even some bass notes, he is therefore considered a "bargain".
Tbh the non-fictional Bach was also well into optimising his cantor production-line haha
Countertenors in history did use their chest voice and not head voice. There were two parts: A low voice (like bass) that sang high (like a singing bass) and a high voice that sang low (like a tenor singing low). Both sang on the same range. First only this "high singing bass" was called countertenor. Later a "contratenor bassus" was added who sang a little bit deeper. At this time the "high singing bass" was called "contratenor altus". In England the development was little bit different. Today falsetto is a head voice without support of the chest. It is only suitable for very high notes. A good countertenor sings head voice with chest support. Who sings head voice only as falsetto is a bad pseudo-countertenor, like most.
Found this presentation to be quite informative. Singing well in the countertenor requires actual physical development. I know that whenever I try to sing something that requires me to extend my range upward for even just an occasional note I must really warm up my voice. If I don't, I can expect the onset of a migraine the next day.
Excellent program. I started my career as a Soprano choir boy and (over the next 50+ years) have slowly made my way through counter tenor, tenor, and baritone. Thanks so much for providing such quality programs.
"Highly controversial."
You made me laugh, thank you.
One thing to keep in mind is also the physiological development at the time, probably influenced by nutrition and living standards. Men's voices changed much later (Johann Mattheson born 1681 played women roles in 1696, aged 15 and only later changed voice) or in some cases not at all.
Countertenor singing has improved significantly since I started out. They are just more dependable and there's less need to worry that something will go wrong.
Today, one of the best examples of a true countertenor is Mitch Grassi from Pentatonix - even his low, chest voice is comparable to a female contralto range, and he can go as high - if not higher - than many sopranos. And he can do it effortlessly.
He's amazing.
I don't think there's such a thing as a "true countertenor". It's an umbrella term. Some use more falsetto than others.
But he is basically just a high Tenor.
An enjoyable post, thanks for it. What I like about countertenors i that there voice has the high range with the full strength of an adult's lungs.
Autocorrect got into this post. the "i" should have been "is'. and obviously the "there" should have been "their".
I remember, when I was a little girl, before puberty hit, I could hit everything from tenor to soprano comfortably. When I turned 10, the tenor bit immediately became unusable, with my lowest note being Eb3(Eb below middle C). But the Soprano part died down gradually. I could reach F# above the treble staff several years ago. Now, I'm lucky if I can reach C above the treble staff and at that high, it sounds more like a squeak than a soprano voice. My soprano became unusable for singing as well as very restricted. So I'm basically stuck in the alto range for the rest of my life.
But, I have heard what I might describe as a female tenor, being described as contralto, literally octave below alto(like how contrabass in instruments means octave below bass). And then there are those that prefer saying it the way I usually do, female tenor.
A useful voice for polyphony, I imagine.
Did the castrati often wear special hats to distinguish themselves from contratenors and boys? 😂
The hat alludes to reports of castrati as international superstars, womanisers and highly extravagant personalities 🙂
Not neccesarily
In my opinion countertenors are usually part of the alto voice. Sometimes they overlap with altos but they can help each other especially in choral. If a counter tenor has to sing above an alto usually an alto will take over and help that particular voice. Or if its too low for the alto the counter tenor can sing that alto part. Basically it all depends on what the composer wants. Just because the voice is high does not mean the quality of sound is the same. A counter tenor sounds is high almost like a soprano but certain sound of thick or rich quality. It all depends in the composition. I guess nothing is exclusive
@@simonalbrecht9435 womanizing without tools. How interesting.
@@A_Muzik Yes, it's weird.
Falseto and head register are definitely not the same thing.
Falseto refers to using only the tips of the vocal chords while the head register,which can be further divided, has to do with employing certain cavities in the head as "sound boxes" and is used by all voices male and female.
While falseto can be very annoying due to lack of overtones, the head register employed by a trained singer gives a full and satisfying sound.
A good counter tenor or "falsetista" as they were called in the past does both at the same time as well as employing the chest mix in the lower areas of his falseto.
By the way, it's called "the chest mix" because we never actually use only the chest.
The percentage of head/chest varies of course but even in the lowest areas the sound has to pass through what we call "the mask".
This is the reason why after accidents where there is permanent damage in the sinuses and/or the surrounding area, people have difficulty to make their voice heard although the mouth and the chords may remain intact.
As a Tenor, this was extremely interesting and highly informative!
I remember hearing the late Michael Jackson's vocal coach saying Michael Jackson was a baritone. But I guess he preferred to sing with falsetto as a countertenor.
Most of his high notes were sung in a thinned out M1 (chest voice), not in Falsetto
Oliver Frischknecht sang in a constricted Chest voice not falsetto ......
It was to thinned to be falsetto
@@oliverfrischknecht1118 But that is the conundrum of voice type. If you can sing consistently in that thin placement, namely to the point where the lower placement becomes less powerful, is the “natural” voice type really your voice type? Freddie Mercury, Michael Jackson, even Chris Cornell... they’re proper exponents of the dilemma. I’ve seen people claim Cornell as a spinto or dramatic tenor while others claim him a light baritone. Reality is, he could sing tenor quite agilely and comfortably, but also had very developed low notes. And think of all the undeveloped sopranos in the alto section (like Kate Bush once was) and all the pushed mezzos in the soprano section (like Mariah Carey basically claims to be) that we don’t even question.
@@robertmonthe9750 It was very vigorous a lot of the time actually. All the way up to the Bb4-Eb5 area. He had a lot of chest to his voice. But he could also sing thin and tenderly, which he paradoxically is just as well known for as for the growly stuff. His lower register was underutilized and underdeveloped. This all reminds me of Philip Bailey actually, who can sing into at least the mid sixth octave but was trained operatically as a baritone, and rarely sings below C3-Bb2 at this point. The voice is very malleable and a behavioral canvas.
well I thought I was going to hear countertenor singing... got this fascinating summary instead... and liked it! :)
What a great video!! Educational, informative and wholly entertaining!! How I wish I had videos like these when I was studying music all those years ago. Thank you!!😊🌺🎶💕
your chart of the four basic SATB ranges should show that tenor and alto also overlap. The word Alto (or Altus) means 'high,' as in 'altitude,' ergo the range is named in reference to the male singer.
Hi! Thanks for your comment, we talk about this in a little more detail in the accompanying document which can be found in the footnotes. Here's a link in case you're interested in having a look:
www.cacophonyhistoricalsinging.com/countertenor-project
Falsetto can also be used in tenor and baritone ranges. by building a foundation in lower registration the falsetto becomes the strongest, most versitle register with 3 octives available and the loudest at Wagnerian levels.
Regarding J.S. Bach’s vocal music: Bach re-worked many secular arias for use in sacred contexts. Female sopranos - including Bach’s second wife, Anna Magdalena - will have performed the secular versions, but not the sacred ones. This suggests that the exclusive use of male voices in Bach’s sacred works was purely a social convention of the time. It doesn’t appear to represent some musical-aesthetic preference for a male voice type on Bach’s part.
very interesting indeed!
Very interesting!
good info. Thank you.
Enjoyed that - would have liked to hear a bit of vocal counter-tenor recording though.
Nowadays almost all of the countertenors are trained to use their chest voice. For instance, Franco Fagioli sings over 3,5 octave in one aria
Hi! Thanks for your response - this is why we describe countertenors as male singers who 'mainly' use falsetto. However, we of course made some simplifications in dealing with such a complex subject, far more information and nuance can be found in the footnotes
Splendid summation! I wrote to Tim saying that this seems like "Countertenors for Dummies", but in 12 minutes you pretty much covered the most important points! As a male alto myself (and yes, the "name game" is also an important topic to cover if you had more than 12 minutes), I found a few things I'd have wanted to have you elaborate on (like the fact that "modern" countertenors exclusively use falsetto - many examples of the stars like Deller or Scholl going into chest when there are too many low ledger lines), but as an introduction, you hit all the important points. Bravo!
And a few rare singers who appear not to use falsetto, e.g. Oberlin.
Hi! Thanks for your comment, this issue is addressed in more detail in the document provided in the footnotes. Here's a link in case you're interested in having a look:
www.cacophonyhistoricalsinging.com/countertenor-project
@@dzechman I'd suggest that Oberlin's top has a very falsetto sound even if he claims he's not using it.
@@dzechman Oberlin was a tenor.
molealto, I agree, but I wouldn’t argue with Oberlin. Here he demonstrates his “proof”
ruclips.net/video/2YgrPBTRjMk/видео.html
In Richard's Dana Two years before the mast, recounting a voyage from 1834, he write about sailor's singing beautifully among them someone with a falsetto voice. So perhaps the tradition of falsetto singing was even common in the early 19th century (at least among sailors).
Indeed! The idea of 'falsetto' falling out of use in the 19th c. is not strictly accurate, indeed we tried quite hard not to say that in our video! If you're interested in some more passages describing falsetto singing in the 19th century, we provided a passage on the subject in our accompanying notes which can be found here (and in the footnotes!)
www.cacophonyhistoricalsinging.com/countertenor-project
My favorite countertenors being...
Philippe jaroussky
Russell Oberlin
Alfred deller
Jakub józef Orlinski
These days countertenors have come a long way from singing just falsetto, some really talented singers out there
As usual, this was fanstatic. Thank you for sharing your knowledge!! I was wondering if you knew anything about "Tenore Altinos"? I read about them in a vocal pedagogy book from the mid 20th century. According to the book, they were a rare voice type that had "androgynous" speaking/singing voices and the range of a countertenor, but employed their modal voice (chest voice as you've defined it) throughout their entire range. The description makes me think of Russell Oberlin, who famously described himself as a high tenor despite being classified as a countertenor. Do tenore altinos exist in a historical context?
Contraltinos did sure as hell exist in Rossini's operas. Before that however, I don't think that they were used (or rather developped) in Italy. For all we know, seria Tenors like Amorevoli, Basteris, Carlani, Cortoni, Ansani, &c... could have been trained to sing as Contraltini. However, they clearly favoured a lower, more Barytonal sounding Tenor voice.
I do find however in older italian operas of the XVIIth century some Alto roles whose intended performer remains quite a mystery. That include the famous Arnalta from « L'incoronazione di Poppea », Apollo from Cavalli's « Gli amori d'Apollo e di Dafne » and l'Humanità in Draghi's oratorio « La Morta nella Vità ». They have a very high tessitura for Tenors but at the same time are so awkwardly low for a female Contralto (a voice which was plentiful in the later seria répertoire). I suspect that they used Tenors who mixed a lot, or Contralto castrati with a really good extension in the lowe register.
That's what I know about Italy. For England, I have no precise info but there were some « Counter-tenor » roles. Some seem to be more fit for a Tenor than for a falsettist... I'm not knowledgeable enough about that so I'll stop there.
However, when it comes to France, whoo boy, I have A LOT to talk about... the voice that is the Haute-contre (it's what I sing the most personally).... I'll probably save that for a second comment. Just know first that these guys were the equivalent of Tenore contraltino and that they were the main types of Tenors to grace the French stage. More in the second comment...
As I can speak as a male vocalist, head voice is a transitional voice between chest and falsetto. I can easily sing from head voice to chest voice through the passagio with ease and no breaks. But falsetto to head voice doesn't work.
I have sung with a mix of head voice and falsetto. It depends on where it is in the voice.
Exactly falsetto has no natural vibrato head voice does.
As always, great video. I only wish that it was longer, but that's something I can say about almost all of your videos. Thanks Dr. Rotem, et al.
Hello! If you're craving some more information, perhaps you might find our supplementary notes interesting?
www.cacophonyhistoricalsinging.com/countertenor-project
Thanks for the video and the presented information! It's definitely an important subject to be discussed, and a vast one at that, so I don't envy you for the task of boiling it down to a short video.
However, I miss some aspects that to me are crucial in the quest for adequate rendition of countertenor parts:
While you mention near the beginning of the video that there's some terminological confusion over ‘falsetto’ and other words for vocal registers, you continue using a near-binary distinction between chest voice and falsetto. Even in traditional bel canto technique, that distinction is of very limited use and in my opinion doesn't aid understanding e.g. the way an operatic tenor transitions into the higher part of his tessitura. There is a wealth of ways in which different physiological aspects play together to produce what we call ‘registers’; they can't even be assigned on a two-dimensional spectrum, let alone be fit into binary categories.
We can see from other non-classical and foreign styles of singing that depending on formation, even the distinction between male and female voices can blur or disappear. From what I gather, it would be necessary to do away with preconceptions like viewing falsettist technique as fundamentally different from what tenors, baritones and basses do. In terms of balance and blend it seems very interesting to me to pursue an idea of all those male voice types existing on a continuous spectrum, with only gradual and no fundamental differences. Voix mixte is a key term to me.
The other aspect that would warrant much more (practical and theoretical) research is looking at the tessiture of alto parts, how they fit into those considerations on register, how they compare to other voice types/parts and how they evolved over time. What do we make of the gradual shift from, say, Josquin, whose alto parts are very close in range to tenor parts, to Bach or Handel, whose alto parts use much less of the ‘chest voice’ territory and extend far higher up?
And finally, what about overall volume? Sweet voix mixte type singing, as is popular with modern a capella ensembles, doesn't project well enough in many situations and has narrow limits regarding the kind of emotional message it can convey at all, while the modern operatic approach to blending registers obviously fits neither historic attitudes/mentalities nor the descriptions of changing style (ut de poitrine etc).
But again, thanks for the information and for laying a foundation for further delving into these matters.
Hi, thanks so much for your comment. Did you have the chance to look at our footnotes and supplementary material? A lot of your questions are addressed therein.
Here is a link to the footnotes: www.earlymusicsources.com/youtube/countertenors
Here is a link to the supplementary material: www.cacophonyhistoricalsinging.com/countertenor-project
The issue of anatomy and registration is particularly complex, and I would highly suggest reading the two articles we reference in our footnotes which I believe are among the most influential in modern voice science. I’ll paste them below:
www.researchgate.net/publication/5318485_Laryngeal_Vibratory_Mechanisms_The_Notion_of_Vocal_Register_Revisited
www.researchgate.net/publication/24190536_Investigation_of_four_distinct_glottal_configurations_in_classical_singing-A_pilot_study
A summary of both of these articles can be found in my accompanying supplementary material.
When it comes to the issue of ‘mixed voice,’ the first of the two articles, that by Roubeau-Heinrich, may be worth reading in order to understand our perspective. Of particular interest is the table which provides a list of synonyms and terms for different laryngeal mechanisms, which can also be found in our summary.
I know this doesn’t necessarily answer your question explicitly, simply refers you to some more research, but I hope that this is sufficient for the moment, at least to explain the origins of our framework.
The difference in range between the 15th and 18th century ‘altus’/‘contratenor’ is a huge issue, unfortunately I’m not sure that RUclips will allow me to write out all of my thoughts on this 300 year period! If you don’t mind, perhaps I could refer you to the relevant chapters of my supplementary notes which addresses some of the essential source material in detail.
As for issues of volume, this is rather more difficult to ascertain. I discuss issues of registration before c.1840 in rather a lot of detail in my supplementary material above, I hope that you find something helpful therein.
I love the singing of countertenor. Indeed, it is a new way in male singing. A modern movie song "A Time for Us" is a lovely one... (Searchable on YT)
Fascinating! Always excited to see a new upload from you!
1:12 - to understand the registers in male voices, one things should be known - when we use the term "Falsetto", it refers to a technique that men can use to shorten the vibrating part of their vocal cords.
When we sing, the entire vocal cord resonates, top to bottom. Falsetto is a technique where men can shorten the vocal cord to produce notes in higher registers. Their head voice (higher notes which, when properly sung, feel as if they resonate in the head) overlaps with the falsetto.
Head voice is something distinct from falsetto, though the two may blend together. It's producing sound which is higher in frequency, but which does not require the use of techniques mentioned above, in deliberately shortening the resonating part of the vocal cords. It's often called head voice because when sung properly it will feel as if it resonates in the head.
As a baritone I, personally, could sing moderately high notes (for me) in my head voice, but there are some which I could either in falsetto or in head voice.
| overlap |
Head voice: ___________________________
Falsetto: ______________________________________
I swear I can sing way higher and lower in Head voice up to A5 falsetto just hurts after d5 and down to B2 while my headvoice goes to G2 idk if it's even worth practicing falsetto.
your headvoice certainly does NOT go to G2. the headvoice has a cutoff in the mid 3rd octave for lower voices. it's just breathy chest voice from there on.@@Heheha329
Really great graphics.
GRAZIE, SEI BRAVISSIMO
Klaus Nomi was my first awareness of the countertenor voice.
The term “falsetto” refers to an airy head voice / M2 registration. This is what most who use a heavy chest voice / M1 registration regularly and underuse their M2 range often develop (or underdevelop) as their M2 to start. Countertenors singing in falsetto are often no different from contraltos, mezzos, and sopranos singing in head voice, just that they also speak in and thus default to a chestier, lower placement which contradicts their practice in the upper register, which becomes their performance default. Were they to pull a Florez and utilize mainly their mixed voice to speak and sing they would become much more agile and potent in the upper register, potentially even becoming sopranists. That such voices even exist is evidence of the malleability of the voice.
The fact that the Church did employ those voices doesn't mean that the Church is guilty of encouraging the practice of castration. The Church did that, yes for the music, but also by charity. Indeed, one of the best chance for those castrated boys to be well integrated in society was to be employed as singers. Would you find it just to deny those boys a life, even if it is in order to not encourage castration? So it is here a case where the concern for the individual takes precedence over the societal concern. For example, it is just to not buy exotic animals in order to not encourage poaching, but this is because we care more about the general population of animals than about the individual animals in the market (which will probably die miserably if they are not bought). The same thing cannot be applied to human beings, because each individual person is valuable. For that same reason it would be a good thing to buy a slave in order to give him back his freedom, despite the fact buying him means encouraging slavery. So yes, employing castrati was justified, for the good of the individuals involved, despite the fact that it encouraged castration on some level.
Well-argued! I agree with you.
For one castrated boy to have a successful career and earn enough money to be independent as an adult there were hundreds of castrated boys who just ended poor and neglected and rejected by society, their lives completely destroyed. This was abuse, even by the records of the time. You should learn more about the subject before writing and stop trying to excuse these horrible deeds.
@@iama8537 Precisely, a lot of them were miserable and rejected by society, that's my point. I never justified castration, if that's what you are reproaching me. It seems you didn't read what I wrote, or you read it and didn't understand one word of it. And it's frustrating when someone doesn't understand one word of what you wrote and then tries to give you a lesson and puts words in your mouths that you never said.
So, to be clear, all I said was that, even if castration is wrong, hiring people who were already castrated was justified, precisely for the reason you mention: because if you didn't employ someone like that, he had good chances to end miserable and rejected by society. So I'm justifying the fact of hiring castrati at that time, I'm not justifying the fact that they were castrated.
As a "haute-contre" I can confirm the distinction from counter-tenors - I can't do falsetto, for one, I only have mixed voice somehow. But I can belt in the top of my range, so choirs like having me reinforcing male voices that usually go weaker in that range. And indeed, I'm never going to be a soloist...
Magnificent
Thanks for another great, informative video. Love your work. Wish you expand more into podcasting or something like that as well reach. I'm rooting for you guys :)
I'm a high tenor. I'm an honorary ancient countertenor.
It's extraordinary how the Renaissance and Baroque authorities loved to classify absolutely everything - the Dictionnaire era
Has anything changed, really?
it's a human tendency lol
On page 9 of "New Treatise on the Art of Singing" (French ed 1847, English ed 1880), Manuel Garcia wrote "Contraltino (Counter- Tenor,) - one third above the Tenor, being the highest in the male vocal scale". I think this indicates that "Tenorino" was used as "Counter-Tenor" until middle 19th century. Garcia also wrote that the upper limit of chest voice of "Counter-Tenor" is Bb4 to C5, matching with the passaggio of Tenorino.
In Handel's "Serse" (Xerxes), the title role is a countertenor. The aria, "Ombra Mai Fu" is a standard for countertenors.
Interestingly, Handel wrote the role of Xerxes for much-praised Gaetano Majorano (1710-83), whose stage name was "Caffarelli", a castrato who usually sang in the mezzo-soprano register. Given the register, the part is manageable by modern-day countertenors, so it's not surprising that they sing it. Having said that, the only production I've seen of "Xerxes" had the mezzo-soprano Sarah Connolly singing the role.
thank you Elam , you´re great!
I really really love this channel
"Highly controversial."
You made me laugh, thank you.
Back when my voice was good, I could seamlessly extend my light/choral/“early” voice well into the alto range. Maybe I was singing almost everything in “head voice”. For solos or more modern louder music I had an ordinary tenor range.
The "English Choral Tradition" as we know it today really came from SS Wesley and was only perfected in the 19th century.
Thanks for your comment! If we listen to recordings of English choirs from the first half of the 20th century we hear huge differences in performance practices from today. Like every tradition, it reflects modernity just as much as it does the past!
I'm a countertenor ( D2-H4-C6-E6)
Do à lip troll 10min-30 and nay nay beauty exercices
Another great episode! Thank you!
If someone wants to dive into the history of high male singing, Simon Raven's book "A supernatural voice" is a great resource :)
Do you have any PDF?
@@juanpablovelez7656 No, sorry
Another good book is "Histoire des castrats" (1989) by Patrick Barbier.
You're always the best! Well done!
is there a source for italian documentals of this type? I just started learning italian and I'm having a tough time forcing the language into my daily routine, and these kind of topics would certainly inspire me to listen to italian frequently. Thanks man, still a lifetime fan of this channel.
Very interesting! Now, what is the deal with oktavists?
Oh, yes, in Ockeghem's music, for example.
Unusually long and thick vocal cords, there are no special tricks or techniques. Subharmonics and vocal fry are amateur hour, maybe usable for a long, preparable low note here or there.
@@zomgisha I think that he was referring to its usage in early music.
@@juanpablovelez7656 @zomgisha Actually both aspects are interesting :)
@@juanpablovelez7656 There is an album by Vox Early Music Ensemble (called Extreme Singing), where they performed the Requiem from Pierre de la Rue, Absalon Fili Mi etc., great work by ultra low bass Glenn Miller!
Otherwise I don't know any other examples.
I was a treble before my voice broke, then a year of baritone while my voice was still creaky and unreliable, the joy of being a teenage boy, then I sang boy alto, a part I loved. Anyway, does the treble range translate directly to the soprano range?
I had a friend in college who's natural voice was in the counter tenor range and falsetto put some lyric soprano's to shame.
Didn’t expect that topic from the hints! 😜
I just discovered your channel and love it. I have a question for you: Do you believe that musically speaking, a young male to female transgender who has used puberty blockers and later on gets fully operated - or at least gets his testicles removed -may have the capability to sing just like the former castrati? There are so many young transgenders ourdays and we only speak about them when they join the girl school basketball team ... What about joining the school choir?
i am not the maker of this video, but yes. the effect would be the same.
A note on the Catholic Church's employment of castrati-you noted that the practice of castration was illegal and castrati ostracized für their deviant appearance. Where would they have found gainful employment in that society? It seems to me that, while abhorring the practice, it is an act of charity to employ castrati for the one thing that was left to then in society; viz., musicmaking.
Subscribed!
Good explanation.
You should talk about the music from Latin America during the renaissance or baroque period. Excellent quality in all of your videos.
Great video!
More interesting information. I had thought that castrati were maybe a bigger, longer deal than they were.
Some time ago for a laugh I performed a Mozart duet from Don Giovanni "la ci darem la mano" singing both parts, baritone and soprano in their proper registers. Difficult for an untrained singer but not impossible, however I do not think I could repeat it nowadays, like Ian Anderson my voice is somewhat cracked in my latter days.
Countertenors did sing major roles in German baroque operas - which could be quite demanding, by the way.
I know that it's tempting to say that « Haute-contre roles in french operas and some Counter-tenor roles in english operas were sung by HIGH Tenors » due to their often restricted and high tessitura. However, I personally have not found any CONTEMPORARY assertion that Haute-contre singers: Clédière, Dumesny, Chopelet, Boutelou, Cochereau, Murayre, Tribou, Jélyotte, Bérard, Poirier, La Tour, Pillot, Legros, &c.... were just simply (and at all) « high » Tenors.
I think that the « high » qualification is a relative oversimplification that doesn't take into account the technique that these singers used. I understand that you can't develop it in this video. Maybe in a part II in which you talk about the Haute-contre as a repertoire ? :)
I have not found any document before the 1830's that describes the Haute-contres' technique. The only one I found was a definition of the voice by Alexandre Choron who synonymed it to the Tenore contraltino (XIXth century, Rossinian term). It was for him a high Tenor who mostly remained nailed in a higher tessitura, with the resort to the mixed voice, which always needed to be trained to have a passable quality. Given the fact that singing technique in France by now has become so italianate, I'm not sure if we could completely rely on that source. In any case, I think that our current approach to that repertoire is akin to that. Although I'm quite pleased with it, I think there is still some mystery over the technique of the HC.
Massive thanks to Tim and Lisandro for their contribution.
MynDuke Hi, thanks for your comment! Have you had the chance to check out the overview of source materials collected which accompanied the video? A short-ish section on the 18th century HC is included which provides some quite explicit comments about the technique of an 18th century HC.
The overview itself can be found here:
www.cacophonyhistoricalsinging.com/countertenor-project
Something to consider is that today we think of Rossini tenors as being light, fairly small voices. But if you look at contemporary sources describing the singing of Rossini's actual tenors, they are described as nearly spinto tenors with the upper extension. Before the chest high c, everybody used the same technique (whatever we want to call it, head voice, falsetto, etc) that allowed them to sing so high. It seems perfectly logical to assume that larger voices sang these roles, they just had a different way of producing the top than we do today
So it seems that some countertenors of the 15th and 16th century were not so different from me: depending on the balance needs in my choir sometimes I sing baritone, sometimes tenor, and sometimes alto (in falsetto).
Pilippe Jaroussky admits to being a baritone with his natural (chest) voice; but he sings in his falsetto voice - in which he is absolutely amazing.
That's neither unexpected nor something one would ‘admit’ like it was a bad thing. A much higher proportion of countertenors are baritones than are tenors.
Indeed, I was a baritenor, with a bass-baritonal low range and a leggiero tenor’s high range. I’ve been transitioning my voice out of that but I still retain some of the lower end. Indeed it’s even developed more in recent years. But I’ve trained to mix well and have a higher laryngeal position as well as my default. It greatly changes my vocal quality. I’ve developed a somewhat stable soprano range which I’m still learning to navigate.
First I am a big fan of your channel, love early music. I appreciate the desire to honor and preserve the structures relevant to performance in the past. But preservation of structures that involved castration of boys is of course not justifiable on ethical grounds. I would like to suggest that the counter tenor has a similar role in early musical structures: to exclude women from performance. Its not just the Catholic Church either: when orchestras etc began auditioning blind - ie hearing the music but not seeing the musician - suddenly the numbers of women playing wind instruments in the orchestra increased. The history of discrimination against women in music is sadly wide and deep. So I ask: is the use of counter tenors instead of women in early music performance ethically justified given that it increases the performance opportunities for men at the expense of a reduction in opportunities available to women?
Thank you, from a countertenor. :)
Elam Rotem, am I right in thinking you are a speaker of Hebrew?
If so, I wonder if you could enlighten me on something
that I have been wondering about every now and then.
How does written music (which I have only ever seen going
from left to right) go together with a script that runs from right to left?
Thanks!
Falsetto=small throat ('fauces' as in 'faucet') The throat acts as a kind of faucet for air.
I was a Boy Alto in my junior high choir 😌
I think Charles Burney said "nothing is so despised in Italy as a castrato who can't sing'
My impression is that Andrew Parrott has been performing early music broadly in line with your research for some time.
Am retired countertenor are voice s are beautiful and can over power a choir ...
"Very complex" indeed! Nevertheless you packed a lot of information into a short video. I have recently become engrossed by the beautiful voice of Jakub Josef Orlinski hence my interest here. Thank you for your presentation. Blessings and peace
I’m not a singer. So is ‘baritone’ not then an appropriate category? Is a baritone really either a bass or a tenor?
yey! a new video 😁
Not much to disagree with there - except that there are clear falsettist parts in English music from about 1650. Nevertheless, the majority of Purcell "counter-tenors" were indeed high tenors. Just look at the vocal ranges, especially if they don't go much above A and have extended florid writing below middle C.
What wasn't hugely addressed was the upper extension (again, above about A or B flat) of the pre-Rubini tenor in the late 18th and early 19th century. Yup, you guessed it, using falsetto up there was OK in Italy and certainly preferred to the "urlo francese" of hautes-contre referred to by Dr Rotem.
In many middle voice parts in Renaissance/early Baroque choral music (those known to have been sung by boys/men choirs) the ranges are so wide and overlapping with voice parts above and below, there is little doubt that the singers frequently crossed back and forth across their register changes and had to do it well.
Hi! Thanks for your comment, this issue is addressed in more detail in the document provided in the footnotes. Here's a link in case you're interested in having a look:
www.cacophonyhistoricalsinging.com/countertenor-project
I find that during the XVIIIth century, the Counter-tenor voice seems to be a hybrid between an alto castrato and a « high Tenor »'s range ! Go look for Thomas Michael Allen singing Athamas in Semele.
Thomas literally told me that he was told by William Christie to sing that role, which is interesting. I find that role to be somewhat awkward for a falsettist and for a Tenor, even more than Apollo in Cavalli's Gli Amori d'Apollo e di Dafne. I think that some of my true Haute-contre friends can tackle that role.
Tim Braithwaite Thanks! I’m reading it now. I must definitely try to find the new books you reference. By new I mean in the last 30 years since I did most of my learning about this in the late ‘80s. Whew. I’m up to page 40 and enjoying most of it, however, is there any chance someone can do new, more accurate translations rather than using old inaccurate translations? I’m not fluent in Italian (nor German), but I can tell enough how bad the translations of the Tosi are (and I’ve looked at more than one). At the very least, the English must maintain our most important words such as “falsetto” when he uses falsetto, chest voice, head voice (testa which he uses distinct from falsetto), natural (does he ever use that word?), et al. I also don’t understand why the translator adds the word castrato. How is that implied when the word is not used? And are we assuming that because he was a castrato himself he only taught castrati and never intact adult men? I don’t see that. Do you know of any contemporary translations of any of the early treatises? I would want to read those as well as the late 20th to 21st century scholarship you refer to. Another thing that interests me as a falsetto singer myself and as a teacher of untrained voices is the limitations many of these early writers place on voices/singers including such short pitch ranges. At least some of them admit there are some exceptions. The ranges and tessituras of roles/pieces and contemporaneous descriptions prove there was a great variety of ranges, timbres, etc., even amongst the solo castrati of the 17th-18th centuries (and a few in the 19th). Just as we can today observe the great variety of countertenors and male sopranos. I’m always astounded why that point even has to be made to folks who are already family with the huge variety of female voices, from contralto to high soprano, nightingales to hoch dramatisch and on and on. I’m enjoying this renewed learning and look forward to more including reading those other books you quoted. Thank you!
@@dzechman Hi, thanks for your comments! The passage by Tosi is translated by Galliard and I chose to use it for its historical significance, as well as in the hope that a contemporaneous commentator might shed some light on issues which are left less clear in the Italian. He clarifies certain issues of pitch for example where Tosi fails to specify a clef.
I put inserted the [castrato] in the text, additions in square brackets are my own. Tosi makes it clear throughout this passage that he is talking about castrati, particularly when he makes a few comparative comments about other voices at the end. While I think that there is a huge amount of overlap between the technique of the castrati and other singers, I thought it best to make this distinction as clear as possible.
Tosi uses the words 'naturale' and 'di petto' seemingly synonymously:
'La giurisdizione della voce naturale, o
di petto termina ordinariamente sul quarto spazio'
But perhaps you're right that a translation which takes fewer liberties might be better suited in some instances, thanks for pointing that out!
As for the range question, do early writers put a particular limit on the ranges of voices? Which writers are you talking about and when?
Are countertenors any voice type who sing solely in their falsetto registers??? Thanks for video it was very informative.
Purcell wrote countertenor parts for The Fairy Queen and King Arthur!
Yes, but they're probably not for countertenors in the 'modern' sense. If you take Purcell's pitch as being a bit lower than ours, then they're a much better fit for tenors.. Purcell did write some lines which were probably meant to be taken by falsettist/head voice specialists (Crown the altar from one of his odes, some solos in Hail, bright Cecilia, and the upper part in the Sound the trumpet duet, for example).
Indeed he did, and they were sung by high tenors. "Counter-tenor" is as much a voice part designation as a voice type, if not more so.
Hi Darryl, thanks for commenting! We go into a little more detail on a few topics, including that of Purcell's countertenor, in the supplementary material provided. A copy can be found in the footnotes for the video, but I'll share a link below if you're interested:
www.cacophonyhistoricalsinging.com/countertenor-project
@@indeserto same thing with french baroque music I think. I highly doubt that the differences between « Haute-contre » and « Haute-taille » (respectively the ugh... « ancestors » of the modern french Leggero Tenor and the french Lyric Tenor) were even clear !
With all of the head voice and mixing back in the day, it's hard to pin point what terms designated which voice, Tenor or falsettist. Heck, in Italy, some Baritones were even called Tenors (XVIIIth century opera seria period).
given that these lectures on music need to be heard, perhaps future lectures can incorporate music/sound, if only for educational purposes? the sounds of base, baritone, tenor, counter-tenor need to be demonstrated, not just lectured on...
Thank you!
Interesting...
But WHAT where the voice types in, say, polyphonic compositions by Machaut and generally the ars nova period?
Weren't the countertenors then not a voice register necessarily, but that voice, other than the highest one, that sang embellishments and not the cantus firmus or the morae in isorhythmic motets, literally against the tenor, who sang those aforementioned parts?
Hi, Thanks for your comment. We address some of these issues in the supplementary document which is supplied in the footnotes, it can be found here if you're interested:
www.cacophonyhistoricalsinging.com
Super interesting question concerning a repertoire of which we rarely discuss vocal classifications !
I have only sung Medieval music with Brigitte Lesne, but I have listened to a fair share of renaissance polyphony conducted by Marcel Pérès, Dominique Visse and Dominique Vellard (a lot of male-only music).
I hope that you used the « Tenor » to refer to the vocalist and part, not the voice type. Pérès, who is more of a Bass-Baritone, sings usually the Tenor part, which is the line that supports the Superius and Triplum above it. He is unfortunately erroneously billed as « Ténor » on some websites...
The three male conductors I mentionned above use both modal male voices and falsettists, be it for the Codex Chantilly, Janequin, Dufay, &c... which are mostly secular music...
Idk anything about voice types for pre-Baroque religious music. Never heard a falsettist sing a medieval or renaissance mass before.
I was surprised by the suggestion of 'countertenors' (falsettists) in Buxtehude's music - the soprano part is often just as high as Bach, which would surely be bloody difficult for the average modern countertenor?! Unless Franco Fagioli was on hand, obviously..
We’re not common, but we’re around. And how high those parts sit is a good question. Generally lower than 19th choral soprano parts (e.g. Beethoven and Mahler were cruel 😆).
As a "countertenor" myself I particularly love this idea! A lot more information can be found in the supplementary material provided in the footnotes, here's a link if you're interested!
www.cacophonyhistoricalsinging.com/countertenor-project
@@dzechman In his complete recordings of Buxtehude's cantatas Koopman actually records them a semi-tone ABOVE modern pitch!! I know there are countertenors around who can comfortably sing in the soprano register, but, as you observe, not many! I wouldn't want the job, myself.. I mean.. I have heard some people suggest that voices were naturally higher a few centuries ago, but that would make real basses even rarer, which would surely be a problem for the not innumerable low notes in, for example, Monteverdi's music. I understand that pitch was not standardised across a single country, much less across Europe, but voices couldn't be SO different, surely?
@@olialto7 thanks for your comment! Johann Samuel Petri tells us of a roughly contemporaneous ‘falsettist’ who could sing a high F, two and a half octaves above middle C:
‘A certain soprano who was very skilled and excellent at singing in falsetto (but was not a castrato) once sang arias rising to an e’’’ and f’’’ with great lightness of voice, with the most perfect cleanliness of all tones in the
quickest runs and groppi; his manieren, his trills, his cadences, in short,
everything was magnificent.’
Despite this, Johann G. Walther writes in his Musicalisches Lexicon of 1732 that the Cammer-Ton, the habit of playing a piece a whole tone or a minor third lower, is ‘mostly used when adult sopranos cannot reach the highest notes.'
The original German for these passages can be found in the supplementary material provided in the footnotes for the video. I'll paste them here just to make life easier:
www.cacophonyhistoricalsinging.com/countertenor-project