Does Your Vintage Classic Car REALLY Need Special Oil? Evidence That It Does Not
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- Опубликовано: 6 дек 2022
- It's a recognized fact that flat tappet engines require zinc (zddp) to keep the cam and lifters properly lubed, but there is at least one common engine out there, the 4.0 Jeep, that runs and lasts flawlessly using nothing but commonly available quick-lube oil and no special additives or treatments.
So, is the zinc thing just a myth? Here's what you should know.
#jeep #cherokee #XJ #chrysler
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Damn your gonna make me call you out, hell, well your wrong ruclips.net/video/xti2LUb5Hqk/видео.html
I don't know what to say....but, since you went through the trouble of making that video, I'll pin it here so others can offer their opinions.
Not sure what the pot head is taking about but that reminded me of the old frying pan and egg adds from the 80s. This is your brain on drugs. Any questions
punching up for views
@@UncleTonysGarage Mama always said if ya ain't got notthin nice to say.....well you know the rest.
@@stevetaylor9265 Please refrain from blaming him on pot. Thank you.
High ZDDP oil is usually classed as >800ppm - 1200ppm ZDDP content.
Cheap oils will be 1200ppm but they also contain high concentrations of molybdenum and similar.
Varies of course by manufacturer but that's typically the ball park.
After checking out your long subscription list I am surprised Project Farm is not on there.
Lots of high zinc oil are 1500-1600 ppm. Not saying you need it, but plenty older formulas were that high. Now they replace the ZDDP with friction modifiers like boron or MoS2.
Zinc doesn't protect as zinc is soft. It's the P in ZDDP that does the protecting. The P is Phosphate and under heat it creates a hard glass like film which creates a barrier between the metal. The zinc is the part that carries the phosphate to where it's needed.
Without zinc the phosphate wouldn't get everywhere needed, so yes in that sense zinc is important but the part doing the protecting is the phosphate.
Things to consider: spring pressure, weight/drag of valvetrain components, and rpm range. Stock cams usually do fine with regular oil. Regular oil today is around 800 ppm zinc. It is recommended to have the zinc level around 1200 ppm if you’re going past stock, which the rotella is very close to. You won’t hurt anything by running 1200 ppm and the rotella is cheaper than regular oil so might as well. You can overzinc a motor around 2000ppm which will make the oil deteriorate and become acidic quickly and might also ruin catalytic converters if you have them. I have a car with a 230 duration 530 lift cam that got ran on modern Mobil 1 synthetic oil for 20k miles by the previous owner and I have run it on rotella for 30k. Recently had the motor open and the cam was 100% on spec still.
I was thinking the same thing, the Jeep engine was in no way built for performance and most weren't run very hard. It doesn't have an aggressive cam or stiff valve springs to put much stress on the oil and it doesn't rev very high. So just because a stock Jeep 4.0 will go 200K miles on low quality oil without problems doesn't mean the same results can necessarily be expected from a high revving performance engine with an aggressive cam and stiff valve springs. The hardness and surface finish on the cam lobes and lifters is likely much better on the 2000's Jeep than something made in the 60's too since metallurgy and machining has improved so much since then. There's just way too many variables to say with any accuracy that someone won't have problems with X oil because it works fine in a totally different engine (not that Tony is saying this, just clarifying).
Your absolutely right! Any engine with a high lift flat tappet cam with strong springs you need zinc or your going to wipe it out!
@@averyalexander2303 I agree! That’s a good way to put it!
I found some scholarly article done by scientists on one of these oil manufacturers websites four or 5 years ago . I was trying to figure this out and really dug into as much as I could. What the research study said was modern oil is adequate for stock cams under .450 lift. The logic was the down pressure on the lifters onto the cam lobe from the valve train was not great enough to wear the cam lobe. I still felt uncomfortable and ran rotella.
Good point about the Jeep. Duration on the jeep cam is very short. Allows for less angle on the lobe, so less wear that way also. Old volvo 4bangers and the pushrod straight six were like that too. Very rare to see a factory cam on those thats wiped, even hundreds of thousands of miles later. Of course there is some wear, but its usually even and mild. On the other hand, many a Volvo guy has “rebuilt” his old B20 or B18 4 cylinder with an aftermarket longer duration cam and ive seen more of those wiped in recent years.... all since the mid 90s. Stock short duration cam on my inline six still makes factory lift.
The AMC 150/2.5 was designed to be built on the same tooling as the old rambler 6, 232/258 and arrived before the 4.0 liter. The 4.0 is basically a 150 with 2 more cylinders and a different bore and stroke. Since the basic design didn't change much since 1964 many parts will or potentially swap between all the 6 and 4 cylinders. Chrysler sure got there moneys worth with the purchase of AMC as they always made a great engine.
Had a 2000 TJ with the 2.5 and had the head taken off at 152k miles just for a refresh. The shop said the cylinders looked near new.
The reason Chrysler bought AMC was for the Jeep brand and for some production facilities. The rest was table scraps and went away fairly quickly.
@@googleusergpChrysler also got a lot out of AMC's last engineering work. Think of how many YJ's and XJ's were produced after the purchase all being of AMC design. Even in the TJ Chrysler kept the AMC engines and the 2.5 also went into Dakota's until 02. Then there's the PowerTech family of engines also of AMC design that was used till 13. Not to mention the LH platform they made millions of that AMC developed with Renault. Chrysler got a lot more out of buying AMC than just the name Jeep.
@@user-cs1ne8gx9u The powertech engine's basic design is still in use to this day with the 2.4L multi air that they throw into a lot of stuff. Mind you the modern stuff is over complicated and much less reliable however it is cool to see the basics of engineering reused over and over.
@@user-cs1ne8gx9u AMC also designed the jeep ZJ they never produced it before the sale but Chrysler did and it sold like hot cakes
Keep in mind that spring pressure will be higher on a performance engine and can play a part in this.
Yes a “performance” grind cam in a big block Chevy is tough on lifters and mating cam lobes. It could use all the EP to keep it alive.
😂🤣😂 if you dont understand that, probly should stick to changing oil, leave the wrenching for a mechanic.
One of the things as well that helped the AMC designed inline series of motors was the top end oil drainage. literally drains directly back from the rockers onto the cam.. The camshaft and lifters are FLOODED with oil from both the oil passages, and from the oil draining back off the top of the head. Coupled with fairly low (for modern vehicles) valve spring pressure, the lifters being vertical and not having to fight gravity to rotate under load makes them one heck of a good design. The piston skirt issue is common, usually on cylinder 6, due to the length of the engine and that cylinder always runs a bit hotter (due to the length of the cooling jacket from the radiator). Youve got another good XJ Tony. Cant wait to see you swap the flexplate on the AW-4 trans sometime soon. Just a word of advice- the factory shift linkage on the 4wd is sometimes janky, couple companies make a better designed replacement linkage thats alot smoother.
4.9 Ford inline six sold from 1965 till 1996 to the public. Serious work horse was put in many application's. Farm equip., generator's, delivery companies vans; etc. I use Rotella in my 96 F150. Great engine.
The right answer is that it depends!! If you have a flat tappet cam with aggressive ramps and high valve spring pressure than zddp is a strong recommendation. But for a super mild motor like the 4.0 Jeep, not needed!!
Absolutely agree. I'm not a master mechanic and have only a handful of engine builds under my belt, that being said all but one engine were street only and they got zinc in a can for initial then off the shelf oil after, but the 50/50 got a half can in every oil change. ( I refuse to go roller, just love the sound of solid flats )
He also confirmed that 4.0 uses a.904 diameter lifter which is the largest used by a manufacturer. If you have more surface area and a gentle profile the lifter will have less tendency to overcome the oil film strength. These engines won't have heavy valve springs.
As I said in an earlier video you had about cam failure the Rotella oil was recommended for my 454 big block with a roller cam, my nephew is the maintenance supervisor at the county bus shop and you know the abuse that a bus gets, and that's all the manufacturers recommend for those buses Rotella T. Thanks for another great video.
I've been driving my 75 Pontiac Lemans, with Pontiac 350, for over 20 years. Original, untouched engine. It had 62K miles on it when I bought it in 2002. Now it has nearly 190K miles. I haven't used special high zinc oil in it or additives. Just Valvoline 10W40. It runs just as good as it did when I got it. No cam problems. Of course, it's not a high performance engine, but it's still pretty peppy for a heavy car.
I would love to see a picture of that car...
It almost seems like it's a new cam/lifter issue.
that valvoline 10w 40 has plenty of zinc for a stock engine, you are doing the right thing, dont ever change
I’d switch. To the Valvoline VR1 10-40 High Zinc flavor. Same exact oil. More zinc. Keep her protected. One Lemans man to another. 😉
Huge fan, keep up the great videos!! My Jeep 4.0 xj I bought with 200k miles and till the engine was replace at 360k mile never seen a zinc additive and ran perfectly fine. Only reason for replacing it is the oil leaks and wanted a 4.6 stroker. I rebuilt my 4.0 after I got a junk one from a reputable builder and use zinc additive every oil change. Maybe I am worried of new parts now days being not so good quality like you so I want to be safe.
Engineering test 4.0s with roller cans were built sometime after 1994. Due to the tight fit between the curtain wall and the block proper the lifter retainers were mounted underneath the lifter bores. I actually saw blocks being machined in the Tool Room of KEP to take the roller lifters. IIRC around 50 were built. The cams were probably ground by an outside supplier or at one of the Chrysler development shops in Troll Land*
Uncle Tony is a National Treasure!!! Always the best content!
Absolutely I got something out of that. Just like I do in every one of your videos. You are truly the Gearhead Monk. Absolute wealth of knowledge and thought. Don't ever stop.
Great video. I just got the shirts that I ordered. I can feel my hair growing back already. Can't thank you enough.
So glad I can follow your XJ adventures. Have one and love it like a family member.
Tony my first vehicle was as a 93 Jeep Cherokee 4.0L 2x4. It was great! Good power and surprisingly smooth ride. If I saw one for sale in good shape for a decent price I would absolutely buy one again.
I knew you'd love them. 🙂 I run regular 10w30 whatever is on sale specials. Usually it's the Castrol Edge Ti stuff that on sale for 22 bucks. I use them on my stock XJ motor and my very modded motor. It's always fine.
VW was doing flat tappet cams until the mid-2000s in the base model stripper 2.0 cars they sold in Canada, the City Golf and the Jetta City. That engine was also developed in the late 60s/early 70s and used for close to 40 years.
Would that be over head cam as in no lifters?
Great video Tony.
You're analogy is spot on and helpful.
I got bit by the XJ bug about 15 years ago... they really are just about perfect little machines. The thing that probably surprised me the most is that it turns a tighter circle than *any* other vehicle I've driven short of a forklift. A solid-axle 4x4 does that. No kidding... just incredibly nimble little vehicles. Still love 'em.
I'll place a bet the cheapest modern oil would out perform the most expensive oil from when that engine was first introduced back in the 60's
Correct
If im not mistaken Project Farm cut opened an old Pennzoil from over 100 years ago and had the same quality or better then modern oil.
I just did my first rebuild, and because of modern issues I used the old cam and lifters. 200,000 miles and no visible wear on the cam and lifters.
Glad you added initial engine brake in that zinc is needed. Once broke in correctly the requirement is not as necessary. But remember zinc will kill catalytic convertors with extended use. Most oils recommended for vintage cars that don't have a cat are perfect for continuous zinc use. Lucas Oil Hot Rod and Classic Car oil is a great example, expensive but great for older cars without cats.
Nice to know that about the Jeep 4.0 because I have two, one in a '96 Grand Cherokee and one in an '88 Comanche. Sounds like six quarts of Traveller 15w40 will do them both just fine.
I have several buick 455s and have found that 10W30 syntech synthetic works well. It sticks well and the oil pressure does not change with temperature like conventional oils. I figure its a good combination because buick oiling is not great but it has huge bearings. So I dont need a ton of film strength I need it to get where it needs to be.
I've always used Rotella or Delvac in my Ford 300 and Mercruiser engines. Extra insurance on older engines never hurts. Good topic. No longer an issue for me these days. I'm a now Honda J35 convert because they're reliable sewing machines.
Slight correction: The 4.0L six-cylinder engine was first used in a Jeep XJ platform in 1987. From 1984 to 1986, they used the GM sourced 2.8L V6.
That assessment agrees with what a lot of oil company experts say, you need zink on the initial break in. I will use zink on the 318 I'm building, new cam and lifters. On the stock 74 318 I've been driving since 2011 I'll keep dumping in whatever oil is on sale. If it ain't hurt it already I'm thinking it'll be fine.
I have a 91 Cherokee with the 4.0 she runs great for a high milage vehicle, I have been using Rotella 15w40 or the Kirkland brand from Costco for a long time now.
Love my 99 and 98 jeep xjs. Pretty sure my 99 classic has the same issue of a broken flexplate. Ill be looking out for the video on diagnosing those sound differences.
I love my xj. It’s tucked away from another winter. Best Jeep ever made in my mind.
Interesting video.A thought crossed my mind,even though it doesn't concern vintage cars.I used to help a mechanic in Stamford, Ct.who was in his own shop since 1967 or so.Customers would bring in newer cars with service engine lights. The complaints were that the cars were not running right along with the service light.These cars all had the variable valve timing engines. One of the first questions to the customer was when they last changed the oil and every time it was a day or 2 . The solution was simply to change the oil,as the "quick oil change place"(you can go thru from a to z) purchased their oil in 55 gallon drums and in every case the oil was a very low viscosity and in each case simply putting the correct oil into the cars solved the problems. Again,this has nothing to do with vintage cars but I wanted to throw it out there.
Thanks for the vid Tony. I've been using Walmart brand diesel oil in my stock 340 & 383HP cars for about eight years now with no issues. Usually I add half a bottle of ZDDP just to plus up the zinc level. I've heard too much is just as bad as not enough, hopefully I'm in the ballpark. I can see where the correct amount of zinc could be critical if your running a high lift cam & high pressure springs.
Adding zinc to oil doesn't work; ruclips.net/video/ohR5rcuYPr0/видео.html&ab_channel=Myvintageiron7512
Tony, you nailed it. Never thought about this one
I would love to see what you and DV can do with a 4.0 and a stroker version .
There has been a lot done with this motor already , but , I am sure DV could really bring this mill to it's full potential .
I seen a video recently somewhere on RUclips of like a 1000 hp 4.0! Somebody turbo charged it and everything! Brought it up-to-date. Was an awesome engine!
You are completely right Tony. I started as a mechanic in the late nineties never heard of such a Thing. Castro gtx all I ever used. Would build brand new engines swap Cam shafts flat Tap it cams never even thought about it in fact never even did proper breaking procedures like we do nowadays and never had any problems Only cam I've ever had to go flat with one I built for myself 383 small block Chevy. that had 570 Ish lift and huge stiff valve Springs I learned that Lesson About the stiff Springs only about 6 or 7 years ago heard of using zinc additive.or diesel oil On flat Tapit Cam shaft I think that once they're broken in Will work perfect for a very long time they should be fine. I think it's more important when doing a breakin or the fact that we have c*** Chinese lifters on the market even the top Cam companies are selling them. They took the zinc out of motorolas a long time ago for catalytic converters Like 30 years ago. So?
I knew this subject would fire up all the experts. Good topic Tonester.
I guess that's why I didn't wipe out my 318 cam before I learned about zddp. 3x10w40 and 1.5x20w50 with a filter every 3000 until I get to the rebuild.
Interesting point and welcome to XJ's. I figured you would gravitate to them being a fan of the inline 6. I have the last year XJ that had low miles and a cracked head. I got a new head from Clearwater, bolted it on, and it's great. Super easy. I gave it to my son and he's in the Marines. We drove it from S Florida to California in January and took the long way on I40 to hit snow and other areas of interest. Had a blast. Anyway that engine is a low performance engine so probably the springs pressures won't be an issue. But I just dove into the Porsche world and rebuilt an air cooled flat 6 a couple of weeks ago and with the obscene money that thing cost, I can't take any chances with racing valve springs and rewelded cams. But from an engine design standpoint that engine has an amazingly engineered oiling system. Anyway I broke the engine in with Lucas for 60 miles and then switched to the new(er) Castrol GTX classic 20w-50 for it's zinc content.
You have to research all oil offerings these days - the parts store [with rare exceptions] does not know. Mobil1 for example has a dozen different zinc levels, largely varying around viscosity ratings. Zinc isn't gone, but levels in some offerings are half of what was used in the 80's. It would be interesting to dig into the details of that jeep engine oiling system. Grooved bores? EDM holes in lifters? Something else? I've never worked on the 4.0.
Great video! Thanks UTG.
Im in the marine biz. I love "the dealership said my engine is toast, its making a noise". Big boats have flexplates with springs in the hub. They break. Im always a hero!
Love this channel. Always talking about stuff I think about!
I’ve owned many XJs since 1994. The 88, 92, 94, and 96 were 2dr 2wd 5-sp 4.0 SE stripper models. I built a 4.6l stroker for the 96 and had that street rod for a dozen years and 125kmiles. I now have a 99, also chili pepper red like your 98, 2dr 4wd that I swapped a 242 t-case for awd mode, 5-sp 4.0(4.7or8 stroker to come), and an eaton tru-trac out back. XJs are the best all a-rounder hands down.
1992 Honda Accord with 479k miles using Havoline 10w40. I am switching to Rotella next oil change because it's getting hard to find Havoline and it comes in a silly bag in a box which is supposed to be good for the environment! Love your videos Tony, very helpful!
Yo I'm down with a box of wine occasionally, but just say no to bagged oil 😁
479k. So you aren't running the break in oil anymore.
@@MrTheHillfolk or wine that comes with a screw top or in a can.
Wow hows the oil consumption on that thing
Honda J35 fan-boy here. We currently have four in the family fleet. 20 years of weekend wrench turning. I've worked on everything. Subaru probably the weirdest. Honda engineers are like Sony engineers. They like to flex and 95% time they hit the mark.
As of this date, I dont know if there is a TSB for cam and lifters on the 4.0 but when I was a dealer tech I saw 3 that ate the cam and lifters. No, this didn't happen at extremely low miles but indo recall one being a warranty job.
I have a 1993 XJ with the AX-15 and I use Rotella T4 on engine and no complaints. 301k miles and still going.
Good video, but you may want to distinguish between everyday engines with low spring rate (lower force/pressure on lifter face/cam lobe) and higher spring rate high performance engines. High performance engines with high spring rate flat tappets should always use ZDDP oils. I have an old go-fast powerboat with twin 454 big blocks and flat tappet cams and use oils with around 1,100 to 1,200 ppm or so of zinc.
I just pulled apart 3 of these units for various projects. None had flat cams, though the one with 200k on it had some obvious wear, but it went right back in the wife's YJ with a 258 crank. Haha.
It's great you're getting into XJ's. There's just something about them.
I would add what I didn't see mentioned in at least the first few comments. A .904" lifter helps too!
But I would agree that even the small chevy lifter is fine with modern diesel oil (after proper break-in) if it is a stock or mild lobe profile and moderate spring pressure.
Loved every xj I ever had. Always used standard oil. Most of them leaked so much I just changed the filter and topped off the oil. Dad had one with 350k miles on it before it quit.
My xj has 290,000 and I've been running quaker state 10-30 most of its life. I changed the valve cover gasket and oil pan gasket at 250,000 with 0 sludge build up. I couldn't believe how clean it was.
I'm starting to think viscosity plays a big role in it too. Some modern engines recommend/require 0W20 and 0W40 which is so thin it looks like water when you drain it out. Those same modern engines are also known for eating up cams and lifters. Lots of folks are now running slightly higher viscosity (like 5W30 instead of 0W20) oil than what's recommended just to avoid the dreaded "lifter tick of doom". Makes you wonder if "they" are purposely sacrificing longevity and durability for bigger claims of power output and fuel efficiency.
The original high-mileage, worn-out AMC/Rambler 232 in my 65 Marlin still runs smooth and quiet with Rotella and a bottle of STP oil treatment.
I've got it on good word from a Ford tech that 5w-30 is just better VS 5w-20
.
It even helps the cam phasers stay more "stable" on a 5.4
Yes, it’s all for claims of tiny fuel mileage improvements. Unless you are in the great white north, 10w-30 is fine.
@@kainhall Our fleet with formerly E250, 350 vans now Transit 250 and 350 vans have all been run successfully on 5W30 oils instead of 5W20 oils for hundreds of thousands of miles. We had a 2003 E 250 with a 4.2 L V-6 go over 500,000 miles of hard abuse on the original motor ( and two transmissions) until it rusted beyond drivability using conventional 5W30.
It's all about politics and money. Compare OEM and Mobil 1 website oil specs for the same car/engine in Canada, Usa, Mexico, and UK. Would rather use thicker oil and have engine last longer, it's ok if i get .05mpg less. Obviously you wouldnt use the same oil in Alaska in winter and Mexico in summer.
Rosella and Delvac are both refined to a higher degree than other motor oils, due to the trucking industry’s request to having a longer lasting oil for extended oil change intervals. Another trusted oil, Phillip 66 x/c 20w60 aviation oil. Engineered for radial aircraft engines from run in to teardown.
I dated a girl named Rosella back in school.
@@jeffrobodine8579 That was a really fat finger, hope I didn’t offend. PS was Rosella well fed?
phillips x/c is no joke, really expensive but worth the money. always used delvac in my older stuff, diesel or not
Years ago I drove VW bugs and buses. I used AeroShell 80w which is actually a 40 weight oil.
The way I've heard it is that the zinc hangs on to the cam lobe, so that _if_ the oil film breaks under the extreme stress from the lifter, you still have a backup form of lubrication.
However, with a high quality modern synthetic, in theory you should be able to maintain that film of oil on the cam at all times - even with aggressive cam lobes & springs.
yes zinc puts a coating on the high pressure areas like cam lobes, it does not drain off and is needed for engines with high spring pressures or flat tappet cams, the best oil around will not keep a hotrod engine alive without the zinc
@@jimsix9929 Zinc increase a lot friction, despite lubricating. Today there are more modern oil additives, which do the same job better and without much friction. Esters base oil and high molybdenum content help more. This characteristic is what a modern synthetic motor oil is designed for
@@jimsix9929 That is not even remotely how ZDDP works lol. Neither you or anyone else has ever removed a camshaft and witnessed a "sweater" of ZDDP...it does not "coat" anything. ZDDP is only activated by extreme heat and pressure in the localized spot. What makes or breaks a engine oil is the additive package...not ZDDP or greater percentages of it.
I am SO ready for an engine sound program. I once tried to get an "engine sound" 8 track from an old guy down in Texas who was putting them out but he had died by the time my order got there. So yes, do an engine sound program. Maybe even do a CD?
Great information brother
You are right - Amsoil now makes a diesel oil which the proprietary additives make up for the zinc.. But that's not the only issue. Storage and POWER are the others. You can dino as I am doing now - Amsoil Zrod vs any other and see 4-7 more HP!! Plus no rust in 2-years of storage,,
Uncle Tony, I totally agree with your assessment of the oil situation. And I too use rotella T4 or, preferably, T6 in anything I've got that can use 10w-40 year round. That includes my bikes. Rotella is one of the few HDEO's with JASO MA/MA2 cert. That is an indicator of wet clutch compatibility. So it works with flat tappets, as well as glide pad valve trains.
For a flat tappet cam with higher valve spring pressure, I like the new Castrol GTX. HDEO oils were the fix years ago, but there are better oils out there now.
Tony, I'd like to see an engine teardown on an older engine that was not damaged from lack of zddp.
I bought my 1991 XJ for 1200.00 for the same reason. The seller thought the engine was bad. Having done my research in advance, I knew what I was hearing. When I pulled the flex plate it was completely cracked/broken all the way around - 360 degrees. You can shift the loose part in the middle around about a quarter of an inch each way! I hung it up on my shop wall as I have never seen anything like that before.
Seen that happen
Brother i love your videos! Nobody else schools us the way you do. I have a question for you, what if you are running a high lift flat tappet cam with lots of valve spring pressure? I would think it would be important to have zinc rich oil in that scenario.
I ran delo r0 in 98 vortec from day one. Did intake gaskets at 120,000 and was blown away at how clean it was inside. Did intake gaskets again at 220,000 and still just as clean. They stopped making delo so went to rottella
I ran just straight conventional oil in my cadillac 500 for almost 20 years before I learned about Zinc in the oil. As a car guy, it somehow never made it into my brain for years. I still run conventional oil in my 300 inline 6 that has over 200k miles because at this point it appears it matters very little. I recently rebuilt my caddy with a roller cam, but the factory tappets were still in great shape. I only rebuilt it because it was out of the car for restoration. I only went roller because I was my builder didn't know what was going on with flat tappet cams at the time.
'99 XJ original owner here. Been watching your channel for a while now and was wondering if you were going to bring up the Jeep 4.0 concerning lifters. Jeep 4.0 are known for having lifter tick or collapsed lifters after 150k miles. Planning ahead, you buy lifters and change them out when your head gasket burns between cylinder 3 &4.
The following includes advise from my trusted old school mechanic. I own a 2002 Jeep Wrangler 4.0l 6cyl. Did my research and took mechanic's advise and just went with regular conventional oil, no zinc, no additive. I also have a 1986 Plymouth Gran Fury 5.2l 318. With that I did put in the zinc additive because back then the oil had it in. But in the end, I don't think I needed to. Just the way I handled it.
All engine oil contain ZDDP, and adding more after is called "chemical Russian roulette" for good reason. Get the right oil to begin with.
(The 🤡in the video don't even have basic knowledge)
@@PSA78 You sound like a uneducated person to make such a comment.
Never thought about this, I had a 95 ZJ with the 4.0 and remember surfing the old Jeep Forums seeing guys say to only use diesel oil for the zinc, and yeah you're right there are 200,300, even 400K 4.0s out there that have only used "regular" oil without zinc.
Still, a bottle of Rislone zinc additive is like $2 on sale, so worth it for my old 460 Fords. And cheaper than buying Rotella.
Diesel oil doesn't have zinc anymore and adding zinc to oil doesn't work.
@@petesmitt It contains more zinc than traditional oils but not as much as it did before being reduced in 2006.
@@brthdan not enough zinc for the purposes of flat tappet cam break-in like it used to; that's the point.
I used to use Valvoline synthetic high mileage on mine since it has the most zinc out of the commonly available oils based on data sheets, kept it nice and quiet at over 200k
The lowly XJ or Cheap Jeep can be rather addictive. We've had 4 in the household & still have 2- 2000s.
My biggest aggravation with them is the electronic locks & windows. My dream XJ would be a 4 door (even a 2 door) 4.0, 4x4, manual with manual locks, windows.
189k on my '93 XJ. FLATTENED #3 exhaust lobe 3wks after buying it.
These engines have a notoriously difficult time with lifter tick and piston slap due to the short skirts.
Its not just Zinc. Its also Phosphorus that helps cushion and heat insulate/ wash barrier.
Also, oils have changed massively over the years. The same brand and weight had massive changes in its additive pack throughout the years.
Yeah, between my two 70's dodge pickups I put Rotella in the 74' and it runs a little smoother I think, then my 78' where I run only conventional oil in it, not as smooth but runs just as strong. Both have 360s and roughly the same milage.
I was just thinking about this because I've heard off the shelf oil is being formulated for modern direct inject engines
You make a good point, lots of them out there, no special love and they aren't known for cam trouble. I have seen a 4.0 that wiped a lobe, it had a strange intermittent lifter type noise and a misfire. Customer had us repair it and it's probably still on the road somewhere. It was a fluke, they are a tough engine. Most straight 6 engines seem to hold up well. It's hard for me to think of any manufacturer that had a bad straight 6 design (I am sure that the internet can find one though.) I run 15w-40 diesel engine oil in most everything on the farm except for my modern 2005.5 Jetta, but I hear that the zinc and phosphorous has been cut back a lot even in diesel oils. Most semi-trucks on the road today have roller valve trains. The additives that help our cams live unfortunately poisons the catalysts in the modern vehicles (gas or diesel), so I see why they want to cut it back, but I still don't like it!
The zinc is bad for cats. But only in very large doses. The reduction in zinc was directly related to the manufacturers being forced to warranty the cats for 100k miles. They called for the reduction in zinc So now you can burn 2 quarts every 1000 miles and not damage the cat.
The zinc reduction came decades after the catalytic converter.
Just had a flex plate go in my ecotec car. Miss diagnosed it as a timing chain guide or tensioner and redid the whole front end (there was a broken chain guide) and put it back together just to fire it up and have the same noise. Man that's disappointing. I pulled the pan thinking maybe it's a rod end and just happened to notice the torque converter not move when I started to bar it over. End of the day it's a good thing but was a hassle.
I used Royal Purple for the cam break-in, I replaced it with the same and yes a 20 minutes run with a low micron filter is expensive but I really wanted a good break-in. After the replacement oil came out I too have been using Rotella.
BTW, roller lifters for a Gen I is prohibitly expensive!
Never use royal purple for break in, the parts wont wear together, and you will get some funny bidness, just not right off, and thats if you even get the rings to seat.
@@tinkersspeedshop8401 thanks for that. I'd heard that about synthetics.
In your estimation, what's a good oil to use for a 20 minutes?
I'm not sure the ford 300/4.9 i6 ever had roller cams from the factory either, and I know most people aren't even thinking about needing zddp in them and they run forever. I had one for a while that I ran 5w30 mobil 1 or whatever off the shelf oil and never had an issue. However, in my 390 FE that is a recent rebuild with a flat tappet I run the Lucas classic car oil.
Aah the famous 4.0l that engine is known for being bulletproof! i own a Jeep Wrangler 2006 Sahara edition and love it, thanks for the info Uncle Tony! 😁
The AMC 6 cylinder 4.0L and its sister 4 cylinder engine don''t like high RPM's, or they will break. Keep the RPM's down and they will last.
@@jimjungle1397 Yes you are right the AMC 4.0l is never made for high revs as it works with an underlying camshaft and push rods( overhead valve engine) if you were to run the engine at high revs the valves would start to float and cause damage, so thanks for the info
Tony, even modern chemistry restricted engine oils(API/ILSAC) DO HAVE ZDDP, it's just in there at a reduced amount compared to oils we used to have or current diesel oils.
Your point however is exactly correct, most non-performance type(grocery getter or truck) flat tappet cam engines will survive just fine, using common readily available API licensed oils that do have reduced zinc(ZDDP). To clarify, the zinc is reduced, not removed. It's actually the phosphorous that is limited to 800ppm, but that's part of the ZDDP compound.
Phosphorous is limited to 1200ppm max for the latest CK4 forumlation. Rotella T4 has 1130ppm VOA and T6 has 1260ppm.
I go in the woods, too.
If you feel the need to add something to your oil for cam protection, I suggest "Camguard".
'66 Power Wagon. 318 Poly. I've added a little zinc to the oil can't hurt. Regular Valvoline user. No issues. Don't expect any either. Rotella would probably be fine though too.
Been using shell rottela in my classic mopars for 20 years.
Not one problem
Love you Tony for keeping the ground shaking with the power of classic Mopar mills, but you owe your audience a follow-up.
Today's oils don't have "no zinc", they have less zinc or to be more accurate less of the zinc/phosphate compound known as ZDDP.
Because phosphorus "poisons" catalytic converters the industry has been reducing the amount of ZDDP.
This became a noticeable problem around 2004 when the SM oil standard was introduced with a limit of 800ppm.
Newer oils are supposed to have improved anti-wear formulas to make up for the lower ZDDP levels but for older flat cam engines especially those with higher spring pressures, a high ZDDP oil (which may conform to the latest API specs) is a good idea.
BTW I recall Chrysler issued a bulletin on some 4.0L to replace the valve springs. The factory springs were so weak the valves would sometimes fail to close when carbon got on the stems. Car makers run the softest springs they can for fuel economy reasons.
Grab your favorite beverage, curl up with a warm laptop and do some googling - plenty of good info out there (some bad info too... check the source)
PS. Be careful with modern diesel oils. Diesels now have converters and other exhaust devices that require oils with less phosphorus (low "SAPS") so you may not get the level of ZDDP you got in the older oils.
I just picked up a 1982 911 SC. I've been thinking of running Shell Rotella T5 15W40 year round. Has moly which T4 does not and is around 1290 ppm in Zinc and 1090 ppm in Phosphorus. Just for clarificaction, Zinc has never left motor oil. It's just been reduced to around 800 ppm due to the newer SN rating to avoid damaging catalytic converters.
My buddy worked at the BMW motorcycle shop they had a trough and put all the empty containers in it upside down (residual) it collected in a gallon jug every year I changed the oil in my 98 grand with the 4.0 never had an issue
I have broken in dozens of cams since they pulled the zinc from the oil. Standard off the shelf oil with no ZDDP additives. I have never wiped a cam. I think I have only used an additive once, and that was on a 292/509 in a 360. I just broke in a cheap summit cam in a 305 with run of the mill oil. No problems.
I use castrol gtx high mileage which contains 800ppm ZDDP seems to work great!
Tony I use Castrol classic 20w/50 in my hot rod stuff because of spring pressure, my DD is an 89 f250 460 ft cam I use walmart 10w/40. I don't buy the oil crap. You and Vintage Iron hit the nail on the head with machining and QC. new diesel are all roller that isn't your dads Rotella or Delo 400
When I was younger the shop I worked at had a 93 Chevy 1500 since new only got shell rotella oil. I thought they were crazy but it was dead nuts reliable with 475k miles. Since seeing that if it has flat tappets it’s getting shell rotella
There happens to be a guy on RUclips that puts a full synthetic in his Model A Ford, with it's original flat head 4 still in it. And I have ran regular motor oil in all my car's and trucks with two exceptions starting with my 1965 Ford F-100, those two exceptions was my 1999 Dodge Quad Club Cab 3500 diesel and my 1983 Chevy diesel conversion that I had a 305 in. That 1983 Chevy that I had the 305 in, had a hydraulic flat tap it cam in it, and yes I ran a Castro 10W/30 full synthetic in it. And every engine I build got built with STP oil treatment and a 10W/30 conventional oil in it, then got switched over to a full synthetic after break in.
My xj is a 87’4.0 and I’ve been using 15-40 shell t4 rotella for years and the 4.0 runs amazing ,does not burn any oil at 232k ..
using 10w-30 the top end makes some noise..so 15-40 rotella works amazing
I had a XJ with 210k on it and it sounded like rod knock but it was actually the torque Converter bolts backing out took the inspection plate off tightened the bolts and it went away and ran fine
Rotella is the most universal oil in my opinion. I use it in the classic car and in my dirt bikes many people use it in their dirt bikes. It’s really a one stop shop oil. You just can’t go wrong.
Wow I did not know that! That explains why they all tick. It's probably not the lifters though, because you can't have a half warn lifter for thousands of miles without it chewing it up. How do Chryslers get oil to the rockers if the pushrods are not hollow?
I like the T4 Diesel, been using it for 30 years on a solid massive flat tappet have not set lifters in 10 k parkerizing, good quality cam and break in on an old Crane cam
Mostly in Germany for old OHV engines we use NOS Gdr Made Addinol MV 244 20w40 API Sd oil
I worked at Ford's Rouge engine assembly plant in the seventies & all of these ruined cams really surprise me. We sure did not have 'break in' springs & rows of run stands breaking in engines. In fact I have one now that I probably worked on back then. A 400M in my 74 LTD.
The Zinc I kinda understand. Why so many failures to the point of scaring folks away from non rollers I don't.