How To Lose Money: My Fermentation Keg Problem Just Got Worse
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- Many months ago I published a video about a problem I was having with a new keg fermentation vessel that I designed. It was dangerous and needed to be redesigned. This is the story of that process, including all of the hurdles bumps along the road. #fermentation #brewing
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As a mechanical engineer who has been on the wrong side of vessel failures on a handful of occasions (both pressure and vacuum), no amount of modelling or spreadsheets give you the peace of mind like physical testing, over engineering, and under rating. You did this the right way. Now you can sleep well at night knowing that even in a situation where there is a manufacturing defect in the tank, there is still no way anyone could hurt themselves.
Thanks. And agreed!
I would put a J-tube with a 40 or 50 psi line relief. We used to test N20, and Co2 tankers with pressurized water. 350+ psi!! I am not a Engineer, but I built, and repaired pressure/ vacuum vessels for 13yrs. Mostly Cryo tankers. A line relief is cheap, and easy insurance!!
Mad respect to everyone at Clawhammer Supply. Our brewing partners' safety is paramount. Keep doing good things!
I always carbonate my beer at 500 psi. Thanks for making sure we are safe. ☺
Hey man when you store it at 99c and you gotta have it carbonated in 5 seconds, you gotta do what you gotta do.
Good on you for going through your own testing. I'm a mechanical engineer and have done plenty of FEAs over the decades. All FEAs need to be correlated to real test data. They are not themselves proof of anything. Your "problem" is a great example of that.
FEAs are based upon assumptions, the type of analysis performed, the software used to perform it, and the knowledge of the analyst. Any one of those lacking can give you bad results.
Looking at your screenshots and your ballooned kegs tells me that a nonlinear analysis was required which is out of the range of most engineers to do due to much higher cost of the nonlinear software and a lack of understanding when a nonlinear analysis is required over a linear one which is cheaper and more commonly performed.
Holy crap, Larry... You absolutely nailed it. Like, seriously, this was exactly the problem. Can we call you next time we run into an issue like this !?
@@ClawhammerSupply Haha. Thanks for the confirmation. Although I do still have access to the highest capabilities of several FEA software tools, I no longer do these sorts of things nowadays. I’d be a bit rusty at it honestly.
As a design engineer working with pressure vessels every day, I completely agree with what you said - an understanding the material behaviour, the type of analysis, as well as the software, is absolutely paramount in getting accurate results, especially when crossing over to the non-linear side of things.
That said, design codes (we typically use ASME Boiler & Pressure Vessel Code) almost completely encompasses any type of geometry, without the need for FEA. Pressure testing is also a very important step in the comissioning of vessels.
Hats off for taking a stance and actually derating the vessels to ensure the safety of the operator!
P.S. we will gladly help with version 2😉
Your transparency on your struggles throughout the development of this is really commendable. You’ve demonstrated great integrity and concern for your customers.
The world needs more people like you guys.
As a biochemical janitor (homebrewer) I appreciate all the hard work and testing you put in to deliver a safe and effective product
Kudos for thinking about safety first! I’ve got a prototype and love it, and I’m glad you guys have figured out how to improve upon it and make it even safer for us a homebrewers, cheers 🍻
Hoping a supplier in Australia picks them up, great job everyone
Thanks for sharing the journey Kyle! Attention to the finer details is one of many reasons I love what you guys do and I’m stoked to try this out someday
Thanks! And, absolutely!
Incredible testament to quality and safety Kyle. Ignore the negative commentaries. If the exposed liability is too great, it isn't worth the risk. Amazing results on your testing. What you subjected those kegs to would be clear negligence anyhow. Very well done and well executed. Cheers.
You gave me ptsd from my engineering days. That said, "A test is worth a thousand expert opinions". Thanks for being transparent.
I was so happy to see this video and mad respect for you guys being cautious, and doing thorough testing. Safety first and you guys are doing all the right things.
I always thought it was funny when manufacturers list a very high PSI rating, knowing no one would ever utilize that.
40PSI maximum rating is way more than enough for every application.
Kudos to the great video and thinking of everyone's we being! ❤
It's awesome to see the level of testing you went through. Unintended use but to counter your "40 PSI" limitation, if I were to use this to make prosecco via charmat method it calls for ~80psi to hold for several weeks to months. It's not beer sure, but I do see this tank being useful for charmat method. I use plenty of beer targeted equipment for other fermentations, its always good to have multi use equipment. 😉
Love the integrity and transparency of this process. Great work.
Love that you are making this whole process public. Impressive!
Love these development videos and seeing all the thought, effort, and setbacks that go into new product development. If you’ve got time for one more test, how about 700 PSI IPA!
No worries here, I'm patiently awaiting my day 1 pre-order and I'm appreciative of all of the thought and effort that has gone into the design and quality of this product. Cheers! I'm looking forward to many years of awesome beers from my Clawhammer Keg Fermenters!
It's actually a really good idea to have done the physical testing, and to ramp up the pressure to many multiple times than what the pressure vessel will be actually used at. It may have been maddening, but you're ensuring your customer's safety, are ensuring your reputation, and reduced your liability.
Good on you for doing it!
'Engineerging school' teaches you that spreadsheets will just tell you how you need to blow something up. Not that you don't need to do it. (Every engineer wants to blow shit up)
Hey coming from a product development engineer it’s super fun to watch you guys go through this process, I do a lot of burst testing for my day job and that “pucker factor” never goes away - looking forward to release!
Yes, exactly. Which is why we did all max pressure testing inside of a shipping container with 1/4" thick steel walls.
Appreciate everything you all do and the transparency. As an engineer, that actually sounds like really fun testing that you all did. I would have done it for a Clawhammer setup! :p
I look forward to getting to use one of these kegs, I think they are a work of art. Don't let the naysayers get you down, some people just have nothing positive to say about anything. I think you are making top notch products. (ps. love my 20 gallon brew kettle, the thing is awesome)
Great job doing the due diligence and pain staking work to prove your product is safe. So many chinese and over seas companies and even US dont do this. Also love the amount of forth coming information you have provided documenting everything. This will all help if something goes wrong in the future or if someone is stupid and doesn't follow your guidelines. Great work.
I'm sure these kegs will change how people brew homebrew. They are an incredible idea that's really worth investing in. Thanks for taking safety seriously and not just trying to make a quick buck!
Thank you for your due diligence. Love your equipment and looking forward to getting one of these
Destructive testing would have been the first thing I would have done. Then send to an engineer if the test does not work out to plan
Good to see it holds some crazy pressure and that's a great call to go with 40psi. I wonder what sort of PSI it would reach with a high gravity wort and a ton of yeast in there (sealed in)? Would it explode or just go full 'all rounder'? Cheers!
Is that not why PRV's are a thing?
That is an interesting question. My understanding is that yeast are able to withstand a lot more pressure than people would think. Wild yeast and bacteria, way more.
Yes.
Way to do your due diligence working out this problem! This kind of work enhances customer confidence in your products!
Thanks Kyle - it's now on order. I appreciate Clawhammer's support to the homebrewer community!
Making things is hard, i love when a company is so transparent about the process.
Good work with the transparency and prioritizing safety. It seems like you could've benefited quite a lot by having a Professional Engineer/Project Manager conducting this project off the bat.
God Bless you guys.
So honest.
Ethical.
Caring.
Trustworthy.
All around bad asses.
I will continue to buy from and support Claw Hammer Supply.
I love this SOOOOO much! I've been deliciously waiting for my keg, and I knew y'all wouldn't release something that was dangerous. As an engineer, this is the best way to verify safety .... Thank you for doing the needful! You guys rock!
Thanks for the thorough explanation and even more thorough testing! I have no problem waiting for the kegs I ordered while knowing that you're ensuring that your groundbreaking design is safe and awesome. Now hopefully that this challenge has mostly passed, that frees you up for more excellent videos and development of other top-notch products. Cheers!
(edit: it's cool to see how many of your fans and customers are engineers; I'm a mech-eng as well!)
As someone who hopes to use your products some day, I really appreciate the effort and care you have put into these projects.
Really appreciate all the work you have done because it brings issues to attention that apply to more than your product itself. Brewers work with brewing specific pressure vessels all the time, and most of us also interact with other pressure vessels in our day to day lives. The respect we should have for them always bears repeating.
Thanks for sharing the testing with us, that was really interesting!
It’s the correct call, I’ve never gone higher than 30psi in my kegs rated to 120, and competitor products are mostly rated much lower (often 15psi).
I think is so cool that you're sharing this process. good luck with launch. wishing you guys success.
Man this was a great video. I love how you guys stand behind everything you guys sell!!!! as an Electrician its always cool to watch the Pipe fitters test lines and see if thier welds are going to hold at thousands pounds of pressure before they install it on a process. Glad you guys did the physical testing. Anytime a video has a science based approach to a problem its very engaging to watch!
Well done for keeping your sanity whilst caring about your products and customers..
Regarding some negative comments....
If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?
Nice work fella. Great video and amazing work checking and re-checking and 100% transparency. If these products were available in the UK I'd buy them without hesitation.
Really enjoy all your content so keep it coming!
Guys this is awesome!!!!!
You guys are clearly super dedicated to your customers!!
I’d totally be buying your guys stuff if the Aussie exchange rate wasn’t so trash😭😭😝😝
love the transparency and conscientious sincerity here, wish more companies operated this way. It's how things used to be and sadly becoming a rare thing.
You're doing the right thing. Impressive integrity. Well done!
40psi should be okay for most home brewers that brew ipa and such, but only marginally, it covers up to 2.5vol of CO2 up to 28C, so it is ok for Saison but not Kveik, or Hafe... My spunding valve is usually set to 2.5 bar, so beer is carbed enough even after chilling it. As long as prv does not get clogged and at the same time the regulator fails this should be just fine.
How much for one of those fatty kegs! I love the extra capacity. (Joking of course). Great job!
Funny enough, I've had to undergo a small amount of this stress with kegs in an R&D environment without intent to sell a product. It's pretty common to use a safety factor of 5x in general unless it's in an industry that really understands what their working with, like bridge building, which I've heard can utilize a safety factor of 3x. So, a 60psi rated keg could potentially survive 300psi before rupturing, and yours happened to survive even higher than 5x. I think the main take away is that things are only an exact science in perfect conditions. Safety factors are created to supplement this, but it leaves people like you and I in the dark when we're trying to see what the limits are.
I've only recently started watching your videos and I like your channel. I will be checking out your products soon.
Wow wow wow. It has been a journey for you guys and this keg. I for one appreciate all of the extra work you guys are putting in to make this thing as safe as can be. I also completely agree, no one needs to go over 40PSI. Most consumer conicals don't go over 15PSI anyway, so 40 is already way over that.
All that to say, you guys rock. 🤘
Well there's your problem, lightening to engineers. Im an EE and design to max failure under the perfect conditions. 99.9% of the time the things I am engineering will never see that condition. Im glad you went through the physical testing just to have to proof at the end of the day. De-rating was the right call. That way the keg has a long useful life.
Internet bro hug man, what a journey. Tons of respect for what you're doing. My mom loved the video too, haha
I don't even know your name but I dig your energy and all you've done for the homebrew community. I've watched your videos for years now.
Thanks for doing the right thing here
A pressure vessel blowing up at 60 psi can destroy your home's foundation. Let the haters hate. They can use the cheapo crap from overseas and risk their own homes and safety. The rest of us in the majority greatly appreciate how seriously you take this. It should be the standard.
I know how much this has been eating at you guys. I appreciate you and how much you are being transparent to your community. Thanks for keeping safety first.
Hey Kyle, Many thanks for all the physical testing you've done to keep your customers safe and the parameters the product is rated for. I was in a similar situation with a product that had to be tested and had to spend two weeks at ATI aka Architectural Testing Institute in York, PA. They put products through their paces until it fails.
I remember how much it cost 30 years ago. It was $8,000. Way to go doing this on your own. I commend you on your efforts. I hope to get on the waiting list for one of your kegs. I like the tri clamp screw upgrade.
500psi? There’s always that one guy…
Really cool. I love the info and insight you give us on all your products! I only have one question… how do we get one of those blown up kegs? I’ve been wanting to make a smoker out of kegs for years.
People complaning about safety issues from your company are the same people that buy the cheapest shit on Amazon without question.
im looking forward to placing my order
Having worked for 4 manufacturers as a field service tech, even after engineering did all there calculations, we still had to do real world testing. Sometime we’d tell engineers the customer have been using it to do this. They’d say it outside the design parameters, and have to prove to them what the customer was doing. Its better safer in the long run you did the testing.
The best for a reason. Looking forward to the finished product!
Although it sucks that the engineering behind this product has been unexpectedly difficult for you folks,
It's really awesome to see how diligent you're being to make sure that its safe for us, and works to your design spec.
Thanks for showing us the 'behind the scenes' of your iterative development and prototyping, and for taking us on this journey!! :)
you hit a snag and persevered! its not an issue with making mistakes,in it self,but rather how you end up dealing with it.
after i learned this lesson,ive been making as many "good" mistakes that i can. and im a much better person for it!
i bet you are,too.
I love this keg design. Why rate the vessel to 60 psi? Most unitanks only do max 32 and most are even less than that. And they will have the prv set to 32 psi and vent after that for safety. There shouldn’t be a reason for someone to crush the vessel with 60 psi and seems like an overall unnecessary safety risk in general.
Edit: finally watched the video whole video lol 😂 honestly that was the best call and glad you guys are operating with safety in mind as usual!
Absolutely love the rigour, passion, and transparency of developing this super cool product! Much respect for going through the painful paces of making sure it was safe instead of turning a blind eye. Can't wait to see what cool things people do with this keg! Would be extremely useful for test batches to replicate larger pressure fermentation vessels.
Hi Buddy. i’m an engineer surveyor for pressure systems (uk based so our codes my be a little different to yours). But if you ever need to sound off or talk over anything you are unsure about let me know.
Mate, if you getting it up to 700 psi pretty sure ur engineer is smoking something if he thinks 60 psi is dangerous. They seem totally fine.
thanks, Kyle I do appreciate your hard work
Ayyyy. I appreciate the transparency. Super cool
Thank you for the clarity in this video. Thank you for the diligence in your testing. Thank you for your honesty with your decisions.This is the gold standard that any company should strive to meet when communicating to their customer base.
Thanks for your heroic efforts ensuring that this is safe. I am convinced & eager to get one.
Yeah I rarely go over 20 - 25 PSI while carbing. I MAYBE go to 30 if I'm trying to turn it around quick but I've never gone to 40. I see no problems. Additionally, let me say, when it comes to a hypothesis, empirical testing will always be the most reliable method (assuming proper controls are ran)
You're a good dude, a genuine, real good, all round dude. This research is really impressive and deserves serious credit.
This video made me respect your company! 👍
The engineer side of me loved this video. The margin you guys are putting into this is the way all things should be designed and thats not always the case. It is interesting that the FEA suggested such a low failure pressure but models should never be completely relied upon in lieu of real world testing. That's exactly why the aircraft engine parts I work on go through thousands of hours and cycles of tests in extreme environments. So kudos to you guys for doing it the right way!
You guys did it right !!! Hats off to the entire team and excited for the new product launch
Bravo! Mechanical engineer here who also enjoys TIG welding and modifying kegs as pressure fermenting vessels with tri clamps and what not under my own discretion. Wish nothing but the best for you guys
There's a Ted talk in this story somewhere...
Awww, I can almost feel the hell you are going through. Though I most likely will not be able to get my hands on your products any time soon, big respect for your attitude and endurance in this journey. Thanks for making the brewing world a better and safer place!
Awesome honest video Kyle. So refreshing to hear about the trials and tribulations of producing high quality items. Well done to you sir.
That 700 psi keg is impressive. Thanks for doing that.
Fatastic company top to bottom! thanks for all you do!
Kyle…. Your personal integrity is without peer. Well done and I wish I could get my hands on a couple.
Great work Kyle !!! Keep up the integrity .
Great job guys! I applaud your drive to release a safe product.
Will you have plans to be delivered outside of the US? Let's say... Spain for example?
Yes.
Great Work.
#STAYSAFE
#PHILLYPHILLY🇺🇸
Thanks for your thoughtfulness
It's awesome you've put so much time and effort into fully testing this item. I'm sure many brewing items are mostly "field tested" by buyers.
Great work guys.
LFG!!!!!
Well done mate. As a pressure vessel inspector in the oil and gas sector may I commend you on your attention to detail. Hydrostatic testing crucial in this testing.
I love the candid approach to discussing challenges of launching this product. Great job
BTW - SSBrewtech Unitanks comes with a 30psi PRV. I had a stuck Spunding Valve and the RRV did its JOB!!
Thank you for all the time spent testing! great to know this will work and be safe for smaller ferments that don't need to be moved vessels, like ciders.
Wow impressive to see the lenghts you've gone to ensure safety of your customer. Best of uck with the product!
I shared with my mom. She is confused as to why. I am sorry my grandmother isn't alive otherwise she too would have to have it started with her. 😜 i appreciate the kindness and openness of this endeavor. It really shows a company that cares. Love your with so far. 🤘🏿🤘🤘🏿🤘 Rok out with your🐔 out.
Lol.
Sound like you need a beer after all that. Just saw you guy came out with your own yeast! Super excited to see you guy make a video about your new yeast
I can appreciate the extra effort you guys put towards making sure your product is safe! As an electrical engineer physical testing is a must, drawings and bench testing, help you get an idea of how its going to work but it almost never works like you intended till you get in out into the field. Keep up the good work, Cheers!
this is why i love this company and will continue to support them
This is integrity. Hats off to you.