Davion's It is Davion's Cataphract. Captured from Capellen units The Federated Suns realized the potential of the mech and started producing it for their back line units.
@@tciaravinoUntil the Davions decided to just keep making Cataphracts. It's hilarious to go through the variants and watch the Capellans and FedSuns iterate off each other.
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming Is there a possibility to use that "Murdermath" for ourself ? It would for me be very interresting if the Banshee BNC-5S is as bad as the Ceasar 3R ... or as good as the Nightstar 9FC (since the Banshee 5S has an IS XL-Engine like the Ceasar and the Nightstar). Also i would like to test out if certain modifications enhance the Survivability of the Mech ;)
There is a bit of work involved in that, probably not in the cards anytime soon unless I can find another developer - but definitely not out of the question.
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming Of course if I would be able to check a Mech a good as you (10000 turns) it would be time intensive. I mean the time you invest into the Videos is not to underestimate and we are thankful for it 😉
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming Is there a way to see how many of these Engine Death came from the Exploding Gauss Rifle ? PS: I modified the CES-3R to go with 5/8 Speed, Endo Steel, Light Ferro-Fibrious Armor, changed the CASE to CASE II, The Medium Pulse Laser to Standard Medium Laser (all Front Face), took out 2 Double Heatsinks (the Mech has now 14 DH), Put a Capacitor to the ER-PPC and gave him 20 Pips more Armor (put it to the side Torsos) Just need to test it...but should be better 😁😉
Ah, my centerpiece glass cannon. Despite its flaws, of which it has quite a few, I still enjoy this egg shaped death dealer. My favorite visual representation of the 'Mech has to be the German cover of Double Blind, depicting Marcus GioAvanti's custom Caesar 'Archangel' as drawn by flyingdebris on DeviantArt.
I haven't run one in a long time, but back in the day this was a popular mech amongst my gaming group. We had one guy who was religious about taking this mech every single time. Makes you wonder how much the efficiency rating would jump just by swapping in a standard engine. Great review as always Mr. Aaron.
The Caesar is a typical example of "Thunder and Lightning" mechs, where the main armament is some kind of cannon backed up by a high powered energy weapon. They tend to be very efficient as the classic ER PPC and Gauss Rifle don't really crank up the heat balance to crazy levels like a pair of ER PPC's.
@@fistan5447 The Gauss Rifle and PPC combo is the most common offsetting the high heat ER or Heavy PPC with the low heat Gauss Rifle. LBX or Ultra AC is an option too, but can put an extra burden on heat.
@@rotwang2000 ERPPC is useless due to its low dmg to heat ratio, and due to IS's 3crit DHS, you really cant use more than 2 effectively which means your energy weapons will only deal 20dmg on long range. And regular PPC or large laser variants will get outranged and outdamaged greatly by clan counterparts. cERPPC or cLPL destroys either of those weapons. With Gauss or LBX10, you only lose tonnage which isnt that big deal. And due to 2 slot DHS, clans can use their energy weapons FAR better. Which is why i singled out those 2 weapons. Personally i dont like uACs, too much investment for the possibility of two shots per round, for greatly increased weight AND heat. LBXs not only are alot cooler, they are lighter AND give you access to something IS doesnt have. Long range crit seeking. Only SB Gauss and LB10x are worthwhile long range, as IS LRMs are possibly the worst comparison compared to clans.
The Caesar is a solid sniper that requires cheap but dangerous fodder to draw fire away from it. You could easily fix the armor problems by downgrading a pair of pulse lasers to regular or ER mediums, which is usually my go to modification for this design.
More hype fot thr Mercenaries Kickstarter woot woot woot. That all being said, I would. E really interested in seeing yall chrunch the numbers on the Iron Cheetah...
Love the Battlytics series! Lots of great information! One statistical quibble with the effiency score is that the defensive metric always assumes 1 Awesome is shooting at the Mech. Thus, efficiency with greater BV always trends up. In reality, the number of Awesomes shooting at the mech should be equivalent in BV to the BV of the mech. So, a Gunnery 1 pilot is going to take a lot more shots than a Gunnery 4 pilot. Just a quibble, love the data "as is" and would also love to see a BV adjusted defensive matrix. Would drive some of the insane cost mechs toward the center of the bell curve while lifting cheap mechs up. Love the channel and keep up the good work!
Thanks 🙂 but idk about that… it’d be like changing the length of the drag strip for cars with more horsepower. Gotta have a “consistent” baseline I think?
I've loved the Caesar since the old CCG art and I'm well pleased with what I've seen of CGL's update. IMO the armor is kind of intentional, pushing pilots to keep their distance to lean into the sniper role that its two primary guns provide. The MPLs are less for regular use than for emergency point defense against fast strikers. That said, I'd be inclined to replace the front MPLs with ERMLs and two more tons of armor.
Been playing since 84, I always look to the armor ratio as wanting at least a 2.5 ratio to weight. So a 70 ton mech would need a rating of 175 armor points [70x2.5=175] I discovered with my play style I like close to a 3.0 ratio, it makes a huge difference, especially in campaign play. Also, remember that arms will take twice the damage of other locations, so keeping the arms well protected pays dividends.
Valid points, just a small correction: due to how the 2d6 propability distribution works, arms and side torsi have the same propability to be hit, with the CT being more likely and the legs slightly less likely:)
I would really like to see how the Lyran Version of the Ceasar, the CES-3S, would be compared to the CES-3R. The CES-3S has Endo Steel, Light Ferro-Fibrious Armor and a Light Fusion Engine...so less vulnerable and more Armor...
Another great analysis :-) can't underestimate any mech with a gauss but this seems a little meh to me...I've never used it personally but might give it a go
The 3R is definitely the most fragile Caesar. Every other variant adds armor and/or trades the XL engine for a Light Fusion engine. The 3S is arguably the best with its light fusion engine, ECM, extra armor, and a Heavy PPC in place of the ER PPC means it not only survives longer, but has 2x 15 point head-cappers. If you want a brawling Caesar the 4R or 4S are good options. The 4R adds armor and MASC replaces the 2 rear MPLs with 3 forward ER MLs and swaps the ER PPC for a Snub-nose. The 4S replaces the Gauss Rifle with a Heavy Gauss and the ER PPC with an LPL, the XLE with an LFE, and the rear MPLs with forward ER MLs. I don't really know how to feel about the 5R, it's definitely more survivable with its hardened armor and CASE II for the Gauss Rifle, but the hardened armor drops its speed to 4/5, which makes it much harder to get the Snub-nose PPC it has into optimum range. I think it would have been better off with an ER PPC even if it meant sacrificing a double heat sink to fit it into the Mech.
The Caesar is one of those designs that I have never fielded in a game. It seems like it's a bit squishy in its armor coverage for a 70 tonner, especially on the side torsos with an IS XL engine, but the long range punch is definitely significant. Though I suppose that's going to cause some issues considering an opponent would likely make it a priority target to try and pop that Gauss rifle in the RT.. I also have an aversion to rear-firing weapons on anything lighter than a Battlemaster, so I'd much prefer all 4 of the pulse lasers facing forward. Either that, or trade them for regular mediums for that bit of extra reach. Maybe even use some of that tonnage for extra armor...That said, I totally agree with you wanting to keep that as a second line mech for long range sniping. The pulse lasers really are there as a secondary thought, as it really needs to stay back and use those big guns to back up its lance mates at range.
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming I can emotionally deal with them on heavily armored mechs with no ammo in the side torsos, but the 3R is a bit glass cannon for me.
Does the simulation record the number of side torso destructions? And when they occurred? This mech has the worst possible armouring on the side torso for the Awesome test. Exactly 30 total hit points on the side torsos. I am really curious how much the survivability rises if it had a single extra point on those locations (or the AWS occasionally fired 9-pointers here and there). I would wager a lot that it would push it up dramatically. My guess is for at least a halving of the death rate. I think a big part of the Caesar's popularity is the competition in the original TRO 3025 and 3025revised. Not too many high performers to stack up against. And not too many gauss rifles to get excited by. I doubt Battlyitcs rates too many IS mechs from that TRO much higher than 7-7.5 (of course, my recent attempts at predicting its output have made me feel foolish. So who knows?).
Definitely into dropping those pulse for standard mediums. The other ideas are solid but may be beyond the realm of a “field refit” - but something you could definitely do in the shop!!
Problem with this mech is, it is XL 4/6 mech with Gauss Rifle on Side torso which has 15 internal pips. So not only you have low armor and are slow, you also have this bomb on your ST which will guarantee kill your mech if it gets hit by anything. I think mech would've been far better if they put the gauss on arm and maybe traded some heatsinks and rear pulses for more armor. But ofc, in battletech, 95% of the stock mech designs range from unoptimized to horribly designed even in Dark age.
They either get the "Let's try this extreme variant" syndrome cf the Charger or it's the "Let's completely 180 the concept in this variant for no reason other than that there are new toys to play with." So the Caesar works out OK as a sniper or a big gun mech to challenge anyone who dares to bring an AC/20 to the fight. But then drop every range/damage advantage of the GR and ER PPC for like a trio of LAC/2, a Snub Nose PPC and adding a third rear firing MPL.
What three words say 'total waste of tonnage' better than 'rear medium pulse' Take one of the most useless weapons in the game and point it backwards... Then do it twice.
I actually think that MPL might be at its least useless as rear defence. The ankle biters are usually trying to get point blank to convert their ML and/or SL into hits. If you are bothering with rear weapons, you probably will be firing primary forward. So the -2 helps you both hit and overcome the secondary target mods. That said, for two tonnes...ugh. The opportunity cost is ever so real.
Yep, 4 tons could get you 2 regular mediums plus 2 extra tons of armor! You could even squeeze another ton of armor out since you wouldn't need one of those Double heat sinks if you made that trade...
@@matthewfullmer3035 the -2 is an illusion unless you're at point blank range. Outside of that, the difference in range modifiers negates the bonus most of the time. Especially if you can get ERs
I see this mech and while it has an alright review I can't help but feel negative about any unit that is oversinked. No heat curve is missed potential. IMO, especially when it isnt making it up in other areas....oversinked, fragile, average speed...at least it is cool looking *yawn*
You know what the Cesar reminds me of? The Cataphract... You should do one of the cataphract.
Davion's It is Davion's Cataphract. Captured from Capellen units The Federated Suns realized the potential of the mech and started producing it for their back line units.
@@tciaravinoUntil the Davions decided to just keep making Cataphracts. It's hilarious to go through the variants and watch the Capellans and FedSuns iterate off each other.
I saw Rooker refer to these as "murder math" one time, and now that's all i can think when a new one pops up, "Hey, new episode of murder math!" 😂
haha
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming Is there a possibility to use that "Murdermath" for ourself ?
It would for me be very interresting if the Banshee BNC-5S is as bad as the Ceasar 3R ... or as good as the Nightstar 9FC (since the Banshee 5S has an IS XL-Engine like the Ceasar and the Nightstar). Also i would like to test out if certain modifications enhance the Survivability of the Mech ;)
There is a bit of work involved in that, probably not in the cards anytime soon unless I can find another developer - but definitely not out of the question.
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming Of course if I would be able to check a Mech a good as you (10000 turns) it would be time intensive. I mean the time you invest into the Videos is not to underestimate and we are thankful for it 😉
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming Is there a way to see how many of these Engine Death came from the Exploding Gauss Rifle ?
PS: I modified the CES-3R to go with 5/8 Speed, Endo Steel, Light Ferro-Fibrious Armor, changed the CASE to CASE II, The Medium Pulse Laser to Standard Medium Laser (all Front Face), took out 2 Double Heatsinks (the Mech has now 14 DH), Put a Capacitor to the ER-PPC and gave him 20 Pips more Armor (put it to the side Torsos)
Just need to test it...but should be better 😁😉
Ah, my centerpiece glass cannon. Despite its flaws, of which it has quite a few, I still enjoy this egg shaped death dealer. My favorite visual representation of the 'Mech has to be the German cover of Double Blind, depicting Marcus GioAvanti's custom Caesar 'Archangel' as drawn by flyingdebris on DeviantArt.
The good 'ol Avanti's Angels book really put the Ceasar on the map.
wish they would do a battlytics on that variant
I haven't run one in a long time, but back in the day this was a popular mech amongst my gaming group. We had one guy who was religious about taking this mech every single time. Makes you wonder how much the efficiency rating would jump just by swapping in a standard engine. Great review as always Mr. Aaron.
The Caesar is a typical example of "Thunder and Lightning" mechs, where the main armament is some kind of cannon backed up by a high powered energy weapon. They tend to be very efficient as the classic ER PPC and Gauss Rifle don't really crank up the heat balance to crazy levels like a pair of ER PPC's.
All it's missing are some missiles for Crit seeking.
IS really dont have alot of high-efficiency weapons. Either Gauss or LB10x, rest of the weaponry gets outshined by clans too much.
@@fistan5447 The Gauss Rifle and PPC combo is the most common offsetting the high heat ER or Heavy PPC with the low heat Gauss Rifle. LBX or Ultra AC is an option too, but can put an extra burden on heat.
@@rotwang2000 ERPPC is useless due to its low dmg to heat ratio, and due to IS's 3crit DHS, you really cant use more than 2 effectively which means your energy weapons will only deal 20dmg on long range. And regular PPC or large laser variants will get outranged and outdamaged greatly by clan counterparts. cERPPC or cLPL destroys either of those weapons. With Gauss or LBX10, you only lose tonnage which isnt that big deal. And due to 2 slot DHS, clans can use their energy weapons FAR better. Which is why i singled out those 2 weapons.
Personally i dont like uACs, too much investment for the possibility of two shots per round, for greatly increased weight AND heat. LBXs not only are alot cooler, they are lighter AND give you access to something IS doesnt have. Long range crit seeking. Only SB Gauss and LB10x are worthwhile long range, as IS LRMs are possibly the worst comparison compared to clans.
The ceaser second glass cannon of the innersphere the first is the Jaggermech lol
The Caesar is a solid sniper that requires cheap but dangerous fodder to draw fire away from it. You could easily fix the armor problems by downgrading a pair of pulse lasers to regular or ER mediums, which is usually my go to modification for this design.
Makes me want the KS shipped out quicker. Can't wait to try this out.
More hype fot thr Mercenaries Kickstarter woot woot woot. That all being said, I would. E really interested in seeing yall chrunch the numbers on the Iron Cheetah...
Love the Battlytics series! Lots of great information!
One statistical quibble with the effiency score is that the defensive metric always assumes 1 Awesome is shooting at the Mech. Thus, efficiency with greater BV always trends up. In reality, the number of Awesomes shooting at the mech should be equivalent in BV to the BV of the mech. So, a Gunnery 1 pilot is going to take a lot more shots than a Gunnery 4 pilot. Just a quibble, love the data "as is" and would also love to see a BV adjusted defensive matrix. Would drive some of the insane cost mechs toward the center of the bell curve while lifting cheap mechs up.
Love the channel and keep up the good work!
Thanks 🙂 but idk about that… it’d be like changing the length of the drag strip for cars with more horsepower. Gotta have a “consistent” baseline I think?
Fair fair! Also, I do like having the baseline defence/offence to compare different mechs from different videos.
I hear what you are laying down though!! It would be interesting to see how the big vs little guys “scale”
Great video as always. I can't wait for the miniature!
I've loved the Caesar since the old CCG art and I'm well pleased with what I've seen of CGL's update. IMO the armor is kind of intentional, pushing pilots to keep their distance to lean into the sniper role that its two primary guns provide. The MPLs are less for regular use than for emergency point defense against fast strikers. That said, I'd be inclined to replace the front MPLs with ERMLs and two more tons of armor.
Same! The old art was very quintessential battletech! And agree on swapping those mpl out. I’d even drop one of the rears!
Have you guys ever made a list of your favorite 12 mechs? BV be damned.
Do I only get to pick 12?? So many good ones 🙂
You could do a IS vs. Clan if you like
Aaron doing an episode for us Patreons. Great stuff, love the Ceasar.
Love you
Been playing since 84, I always look to the armor ratio as wanting at least a 2.5 ratio to weight. So a 70 ton mech would need a rating of 175 armor points [70x2.5=175] I discovered with my play style I like close to a 3.0 ratio, it makes a huge difference, especially in campaign play. Also, remember that arms will take twice the damage of other locations, so keeping the arms well protected pays dividends.
Valid points, just a small correction: due to how the 2d6 propability distribution works, arms and side torsi have the same propability to be hit, with the CT being more likely and the legs slightly less likely:)
I would really like to see how the Lyran Version of the Ceasar, the CES-3S, would be compared to the CES-3R.
The CES-3S has Endo Steel, Light Ferro-Fibrious Armor and a Light Fusion Engine...so less vulnerable and more Armor...
Damn.... that poor Javelin 😂😂
Drop the 2 rear MPLaser for 2 standard MLasers and add 2t armor.
Another great analysis :-) can't underestimate any mech with a gauss but this seems a little meh to me...I've never used it personally but might give it a go
The 3R is definitely the most fragile Caesar. Every other variant adds armor and/or trades the XL engine for a Light Fusion engine. The 3S is arguably the best with its light fusion engine, ECM, extra armor, and a Heavy PPC in place of the ER PPC means it not only survives longer, but has 2x 15 point head-cappers. If you want a brawling Caesar the 4R or 4S are good options. The 4R adds armor and MASC replaces the 2 rear MPLs with 3 forward ER MLs and swaps the ER PPC for a Snub-nose. The 4S replaces the Gauss Rifle with a Heavy Gauss and the ER PPC with an LPL, the XLE with an LFE, and the rear MPLs with forward ER MLs.
I don't really know how to feel about the 5R, it's definitely more survivable with its hardened armor and CASE II for the Gauss Rifle, but the hardened armor drops its speed to 4/5, which makes it much harder to get the Snub-nose PPC it has into optimum range. I think it would have been better off with an ER PPC even if it meant sacrificing a double heat sink to fit it into the Mech.
Hail Ceaser!
And Hail DFA!!!
Are you not enteratainnnned?!? 😆
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming Pf course I'm entertained!
It's analytics of Battlemechs!
Thanks for watching!
A fun mech with a lot of firepower that gets bodied if it gets closed in on or trades with another sniper.
The Caesar is one of those designs that I have never fielded in a game. It seems like it's a bit squishy in its armor coverage for a 70 tonner, especially on the side torsos with an IS XL engine, but the long range punch is definitely significant. Though I suppose that's going to cause some issues considering an opponent would likely make it a priority target to try and pop that Gauss rifle in the RT.. I also have an aversion to rear-firing weapons on anything lighter than a Battlemaster, so I'd much prefer all 4 of the pulse lasers facing forward. Either that, or trade them for regular mediums for that bit of extra reach. Maybe even use some of that tonnage for extra armor...That said, I totally agree with you wanting to keep that as a second line mech for long range sniping. The pulse lasers really are there as a secondary thought, as it really needs to stay back and use those big guns to back up its lance mates at range.
I feel you on the rear weapons!! I’d go farther: Unless its a 3/5 I am not interested in buttguns!!
I just picked one up for our new campaign just because it's so round and has big guns :)
I love round mechs.
Its 10.5 Tons armour for 168 Points not 162 that makes no sense as 1 ton of standard = 16 points.
Good catch! Just a typo in the animation…
The "S" variants that switch the XL for a light engine is the way to go IMO.
You know how I feel about XL engines 😂
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming I can emotionally deal with them on heavily armored mechs with no ammo in the side torsos, but the 3R is a bit glass cannon for me.
Yah 100%
Why did they name a 'mech after a salad? At least with the Waldorf, they can say it was named after the famous hotel. But the Caesar? Shaking my head.
Does the simulation record the number of side torso destructions? And when they occurred? This mech has the worst possible armouring on the side torso for the Awesome test. Exactly 30 total hit points on the side torsos. I am really curious how much the survivability rises if it had a single extra point on those locations (or the AWS occasionally fired 9-pointers here and there). I would wager a lot that it would push it up dramatically. My guess is for at least a halving of the death rate.
I think a big part of the Caesar's popularity is the competition in the original TRO 3025 and 3025revised. Not too many high performers to stack up against. And not too many gauss rifles to get excited by. I doubt Battlyitcs rates too many IS mechs from that TRO much higher than 7-7.5 (of course, my recent attempts at predicting its output have made me feel foolish. So who knows?).
It does. I’d have to add some code to dump it out though… I’d bet dropping a MPLas or two and beefing up the armor would do wonders!
easy upgrade standard med lsrs instead of pulse add jump jets move gauss to lft arm
Definitely into dropping those pulse for standard mediums. The other ideas are solid but may be beyond the realm of a “field refit” - but something you could definitely do in the shop!!
ok used the 4 tons saved weight for armor instead of jump jets
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming
Ten tons of standard armour is only 160 points where did the extra 2 armour come from? :p
Hopes and dreams
Problem with this mech is, it is XL 4/6 mech with Gauss Rifle on Side torso which has 15 internal pips. So not only you have low armor and are slow, you also have this bomb on your ST which will guarantee kill your mech if it gets hit by anything. I think mech would've been far better if they put the gauss on arm and maybe traded some heatsinks and rear pulses for more armor. But ofc, in battletech, 95% of the stock mech designs range from unoptimized to horribly designed even in Dark age.
They either get the "Let's try this extreme variant" syndrome cf the Charger or it's the "Let's completely 180 the concept in this variant for no reason other than that there are new toys to play with." So the Caesar works out OK as a sniper or a big gun mech to challenge anyone who dares to bring an AC/20 to the fight. But then drop every range/damage advantage of the GR and ER PPC for like a trio of LAC/2, a Snub Nose PPC and adding a third rear firing MPL.
I have to admit I'm a bit surprised I always considered it a kind of junk design.
What three words say 'total waste of tonnage' better than 'rear medium pulse'
Take one of the most useless weapons in the game and point it backwards... Then do it twice.
I actually think that MPL might be at its least useless as rear defence. The ankle biters are usually trying to get point blank to convert their ML and/or SL into hits. If you are bothering with rear weapons, you probably will be firing primary forward. So the -2 helps you both hit and overcome the secondary target mods.
That said, for two tonnes...ugh. The opportunity cost is ever so real.
Yep, 4 tons could get you 2 regular mediums plus 2 extra tons of armor! You could even squeeze another ton of armor out since you wouldn't need one of those Double heat sinks if you made that trade...
4 tons on rear weapons is mind boggling for sure… no doubt they can do the job, but seems like overkill!!
@@matthewfullmer3035 the -2 is an illusion unless you're at point blank range. Outside of that, the difference in range modifiers negates the bonus most of the time. Especially if you can get ERs
That would make way more sense on a heavily armored juggernaut mech, not this glass cannon.
I see this mech and while it has an alright review I can't help but feel negative about any unit that is oversinked. No heat curve is missed potential. IMO, especially when it isnt making it up in other areas....oversinked, fragile, average speed...at least it is cool looking *yawn*
Haha rear lasers are poop. Def needs more armor!
The Caesar. Making Capellan shit usable... :) (Cataphract)
Should do a head to head!
Grossly misinformed.