I'm sitting down with Rev. Ethan Sayler to learn about the Presbyterian Church in America. Thanks for considering supporting TMBH and the church unity project I'm working on at / tmbh
First! Also thanks for being interested in learning about other peoples' versions of church. These are delightful to make, and I hope they make us more knowledgeable and empathetic about what others believe. This process is having that effect on me for sure. If you want to be a part of this project you can support TMBH at www.patreon.com/TMBH Thanks for watching and for being a delight to interact with!
I see that you have a Duolingo bird sticker on the laptop. What language(s) are you working on? Personally, I rotate my study among French, Portuguese, German and Klingon.
The bible is not the Word of God. That distinction is reserved for Jesus only and it is expressed succinctly in John 1, that "the Word became flesh and dwealt among us" The Word didn't become a book. No doubt whatsoever that the Bible contains SOME of God's words easily verified via logic and prophecy. We know the Word/Logos communicated thru prophets and then they wrote it down, but the bible also contains words from Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel about things he witnessed the Word had done. King David wrote some of the scriptures and Jesus affirms that David did so "in spirit" Some of Nebuchadnezzars words are contained in the Bible regarding that which he saw God do. Nebuchadnezzar was not communicating prophecy, rather he was communicating what he witnessed. Nebuchadnezzar is not the Word, some of Nebuchadnezzars words are contained in the bible, therefore the Bible is NOT and cannot be the Word of God. That distinction and title is reserved for Jesus alone for the father loves the son and placed all things into his hands, and by him and thru him was ALL created. This isn't a liberal vs conservative distinction. Rather it is truth verifiable by use of the necessity of Logic which comes directly from the Logos. Jesus contains all the Words of the Word because he is the Word. Therefore the Bible being a finite object could never be the Word.
One thing I have gained from this series and from No Dumb Questions (Matt's other podcast) is how well he listens. How he sits and looks at the individual, how he comes well informed, ask great questions without demeaning them. I may not agree on mode/method of how each of these churches operate but man the body of Christ is a beautiful thing. Thank you Matt.
One thing I've gained from this series as a Catholic is the need for a magesterium and a hierarchy. Highlights the division on a ecclesiastical level and how human error can easily take hold once one group or persons breaks from the body of Christ. Thank God for the Catholic Church
@@GP-dp4mr I can understand where you are coming from, but the Catholic Church is the reason these divisions exist. If not for corrupt and money hungry leadership, gross abuses of power, and let's not forget mass genocide in the name of God on no less than 9 crusades and the Spanish inquisition, there would be no division in the Church.
@@iwontliveinfear I disagree, the reformation went further than just a reaction to sins which certain clergy were involved with etc. It was an attack on the whole central theology of the mass which was the focal point of Christian worship for the last 150p years, Michael Davies does a very good job presenting the reformers views in his book Cranmers Godly Order quoting Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Cranmer etc, what you believe was needed turned out not to be a reform but a revolution, in theology which was alien from any ancient and apostolic church. Regarding the Crusades, I believe in a just and holy war and protecting Christians world wide.
I grew up in the Reformed Presbyterian church. I appreciate the simplicity in worship and the genuine love within the fellowship of the believers. I also value that I grew up memorizing the psalms, as we used the Scottish Psalter in our worship gatherings. We did not use instruments to keep things simple, and after spending many years on modern worship teams, now I see the value in keeping things simple.
I am Presbyterian, I am part of the "Igreja Presbiteriana do Brasil" (Presbyterian Church of Brazil). Our church was founded by American missionary Reverend Ashbel Green Simonton in 1862. God bless you! 💚
As a Lutheran, I feel it's important to note that the differences between Lutheran theology and Reformed theology are not insignificant. Reformed often describe it as though our differences are marginal; most of us Lutherans disagree. We still see the reformed as siblings in Christ, but we are probably closer to Anglicans than we are to Presbyterians and other Calvinists.
That’s interesting. My Presbyterian seminary professors seem to think we are close to Anglicans as well. Perhaps Lutherans are on one side and we Presbys are on the other. :)
@@kimcass4440 yeah Presbyterian and other reformed are far closer to the evangelical Anglican Church because both subscribe to Westminster confessions where the Lutheran doesn’t. Chinchillainheat made a mistake
It really depends on which aspect of the church you choose to group by. For instance, in the western world, Roman Catholics, confessional Lutherans, and High Anglicans all share closer theological views on the nature of the Sacraments as well as more Episcopalian, liturgical church bodies. However, if you were to group by views on justification (particularly man’s involvement in it), Lutherans and Reformed folks are much more similar. Christianity is a very theologically diverse religion in certain regards, and even within a given branch there tends to be innumerable similarities and differences between subgroups.
@@alakazou1614 how so? You said it yourself: evangelical Anglicans tend towards the reformed end of the spectrum, where the high church (not necessarily the Anglo-Catholics) tend toward the Lutheran side. But at any rate my point is that Lutherans and Calvinists are not the close cousins that some seem to think they are.
My favourite moments in this series is when you ask a more challenging question of the interviewee or they push back on a question or comment made. It really feels like we're getting to the meat of things in those moments and I get so excited to see how it plays out because I know both sides are going to be respectful and gracious amidst it all.
I appreciate that he probably knows most of what these people will say because he’s knowledgeable but still asks questions so he can help other people understand
Hi thanks for making these videos! I'm learning a lot! I'm catholic, I used to put all protestants in the same bag as all protestants are the same, but with your videos I'm learning to understand better the nuances of protestantism, where they're coming from and why they believe and behave the way they do. Thanks again!
The American pilgrims didn’t come over here because of the “Catholic persecution of England”. It was protestant England, C of E, who was persecuting non-Anglicans. Catholics were dying along with Quaker’s, etc.
As a Presbyterian minister myself I really appreciated hearing from a fellow Presbyterian explaining the system of doctrine and polity I know and love.
@@jamyers1971 I don't care about ecumenical hand holding. There is a false gospel and a real. The ten minute bible hour gives me the heebeegeebees the way he entertains this false religions.
@@Speakingintothevoid700 well, I wish you the best with that approach to other people. God's Grace and Peace to you, I hope you have a wonderful day today, full of Gods richest blessings.
Matt..I learn so much from your visits. I was raised Missionary Baptist and have been around most expressions of Christianity that are predominantly African American (as a musician) but I love to learn about different expressions and theologies. Your videos have helped me articulate my beliefs in ways I've never been able to. Thank you!
I got a huge response when I posted this on his channel, but I really would love to see you have a conversation with Fr. Casey, a Franciscan Friar. I am deeply convinced that you would have a really good and interesting time, and that it would be good for all of us to see this discussion. If not him specifically, I think visiting any of the religious orders would be very interesting.
@@HJKelley47 Yes, I very much enjoyed it, but I think Fr. Casey and Matt bring a similar energy to the discussion but with very different starting points.
@@horticulturist2338 : So you feel Fr. Casey would bring a different insight to our understanding of Roman Catholicism? In actually I was also thinking Professor Bradley Nassif, an Antiochian-Eastern Orthodox scholar, and professor at North Park University and Seminary, would also bring another layer of understanding to the Eastern Orthodox dialogue. Though I do not fellowship in either of these traditions, I have been interested to gain a deeper appreciation of Eastern Orthodoxy. Maybe we will get lucky and Matt just might do that!
@@HJKelley47 Well, I think that having a Franciscan on would be interesting, just because of the inherent interest the public writ large shows in a consecrated life. Also, I would adore the chance to see more Antiochian and Eastern Orthodox scholarship. I am very interested in it as well.
@@CRACKBONE7317 Funnily enough, I agree with you. But I had the opportunity to get a masters degree at a local seminary for 75% off tuition and decided it’s always a good time to learn about God and the Bible. It’s been an incredible experience-I might work toward an MDiv next, just without the ordination. My professors have allowed me to focus my ministry training in writing, which is a gifting of mine, rather than preaching.
Thanks brother Matt. I really enjoy this series. As a former baptistic congregationalist who is now Presbyterian (CREC specifically) this discussion is particularly of interest. One thing I would point out is that Presbyterian polity is not the polar opposite of the RC (episcopal) polity but rather congregationalism is the opposite just as democracy is the opposite of monarchy (excluding anarchy as a choice). The original US governmental structure (now highly corrupted) was highly influenced by the Presbyterian and Puritan faith that was such a huge part of colonial American life. The American republican structure is very much like the presbyterian structure and both are fundamentally based on the theology and anthropology of these religious streams. Total depravity is a bedrock principle of both. Looking forward to the next installment.
When you stumbled through "man, woman, humankind" all I could think of was Trudeau saying "peoplekind". I was waiting for you to say that as a joke. Great episode Matt. I had been to a Presbyterian church a few times with a friend as a kid but didn't understand how it was different than my Lutheran church. Seemed the same to my little kid brain.
Your observation about how the doctrine of total depravity is so fully integrated into PCA practice (40:42) hits home. I became a member of PCA after an extended effort to bring the outworking of my life into conformance with a holistically considered theology. So many areas of theology (that are often minimized as trivial or technical) have surprising manifestation in how the church does church and the christian does life. The PCA does a good job of putting together a complete framework that makes sense of these issues in a systematically consistent manner.
It is by the Grace of God that He showed mercy on my wretched soul. I stand by the Apostles Creed, the 5 Solas, The Westminster Confession of Faith, and The Bible. Praise God.
Thank you Matt - this is so helpful - I have spent my entire life in the evangelical Baptist church and I am considering a change to the Presbyterian church - I am learning a lot. Blessings.
@@KalebMarshallDulcimerPlayer it's covenant theology. It's all throughout scripture. Take the time to learn about it before your bash it. Infant baptism is just the OT sign of circumcision. There's no salvation for the infant. It's very different to what the Catholics do so inform yourself. It's truly biblical.
@@Blargmaster-pf4bf just that the church has its origin in Scotland, not the why of it. Heck I was raised in the Presbyterian church and I don't know why Scotland. Sadly, I also know nothing of John Knox, despite one of my favorite people from my childhood church living in a place called John Knox Village.
Thanks for this series, Matt! I'm glad you dug into the church structure and how it keeps any one person from having too much power. But there is another level to it, which I think has been more important to the "mother church" in Scotland than it has in the USA: part of what Knox and his contemporaries brought to the founding of the Presbyterian church was the idea of removing barriers to each member of the congregation engaging directly with Scripture, rather than having it gatekept by an authority figure Hence his push to create a public education system in Scotland-- people can't dig into Scripture independently if they can't read it. Also, not sure if this is true of PCA, but the Church of Scotland does have a space for internal debate over interpretation of Scripture that isn't about discipline. First, there are actually a few doctrinal stances where the official position is "we can agree to disagree" and tbh it really forces you to think hard about the positions of people who disagree with you and that's a good thing. Second, there are internal discussions where members of the congregation can participate alongside clergy and the emphasis is on being able to defend one's ideas based on a comprehensive interpretation/analysis of Scripture. I was part of the information-gathering process in the runup to the 2013 Theological Commission report; my congregation held a sort of focus group and it was simultaneously nerdy, humbling, and joyful.
Interesting historical note on Presbyterian ecclesiastical polity: it comes directly from the Fundamental Constitution of the Order of Preachers, AKA the Dominicans, and how the friars still operate within the Order. Basically, it's Medieval monastic order but with married men in the roles of the friars. One might note that a lot of the Apostolic ecclesial order predates Feudalism and the Holy Roman Wmpire by centuries.
Love it. Would also love to hear about Calvins view on the supper. Real presence/Spiritual presence through faith may be an interesting topic as well as baptising babies and the view of the covenant.
Thank you for the work you do!!! I feel that people are attracted to the flavor of Christianity that they can understand. From there some can grow, or others lock themselves in a corner and become stagnant with their problems that they project on others who are not like them in their beliefs. I hope and think that I was able to share my thought correctly. Again, great lesson on such a big topic (umbrella) !!!
I was born again as a young man in a Church of God (Cleveland, TN Pentecostal denomination) and later read Romans 9, understood it, then spent the next decade fighting against it by becoming an open theist variety of Arminian. I didn't embrace Reformed theology because I was attracted to it, so much as I finally surrendered to it, driving home from work, and needing to pull over my vehicle to let God break me. I was not a consistent Christian before, nor have I been since, mainly owing to my own erroneous understanding of sanctification that I picked up from Holiness theology, and my own perfectionism (not to mention, nor minimize my sin), but I do know that I hated Reformed theology and Calvinism as soon as I discovered it, and was a virulent opponent of it. I also recognize my subjective experience does not prove my theology nor mean I am without error, but as a general rule, I have yet to find a theology that better explains the plain meaning of Scripture in it's own words. Most of the things Calvin, Spurgeon, Sproul, Piper, etc are saying agree with the things that Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John are saying, and that consistently throughout the entirety of Scripture, not isolated texts.
This has been so helpful thank you . I'm looking into private school for my daughter and one recommended was Presbyterian.I thought it was some branch of Catholic Idk lol so anyways it had me put off but after seeing your video I can see that wasnt an accurate assumption and the value of looking into these things . you've been so helpful and the people willing to participate thank you .I still have my research to do and specific to the school itself . I just want my daughter brought up with sound theology. I was not and it caused a monumental level of deconstruction that I'm still working through . I dont want that to be her one day .
Go for the Presby as long as it’s not PC(USA). They are very liberal and nearly apostate - allowing homosexual marriages, women pastors, and all the rest of progressivism
I agree with ALL that Rev. Sayler says here...especially about TRUTH and "relativism."("Your truth is NOT my truth, etc.") I would join his church if I lived nearby. What he is saying truly resonates with me. Thanks for this interview.
What a gracious interview. Rev. Ethan obviously is familiar with his religious sect of the Presbyterian Church in America and is more than capable to explain and defend it. Kudos to both him and you, Matt, for another wonderful look into how some of my Christian brothers and sisters worship our one God.
I don't mind telling you, of all the ones you've done, this has my ear. I'm amazed at how they look at God, His Word and Theology. I might have to look deeper because this really speaks.
I think to understand the American context of "reformed" theology and ecclesiological structures, a good video would be to dive into the dispensational evangelical movements back to the 19th Century and how they have informed and shaped the modern American Evangelical church experience. Pastor Brian Borgman of Grace Community Church in Minden, NV (I promise you, one of the greatest pastors that you've likely never heard of), has an excellent look at this issue as part of a long series he taught back in the early 2000's on church history (available on Sermon Audio). It was hugely helpful in putting all these things you raise into context. Thanks for all you do with these videos...just excellent information and discussion.
I was raised in the Presbyterian Church (USA), so this was a fascinating journey into the perspective and core values of another Presbyterian Church. Very different, and I appreciate learning more.
Yeah, that's correct. Calvin trained for the priesthood briefly, but transferred to law school before he got ordained and was a law student when he got involved with the French reformers.
I'd love to see a reformed Baptist, dutch Reformed, or something else in the Reformed family tree! Or maybe even an Acts29 church, where you can talk about the "New Calvinists" or the "Young, Restless and Reformed" movements of the latter decade! Love the videos, as always.
@@huwfulcher I went to the Acts29 west conference in 2018. That’s 3 years ago and even then the whole conference was centered around celebrating churches that were getting more black elders into leadership. It felt like I was at a christian affirmative action event. Praise God for elders of all ethnicities, but the forced propaganda of CRT style maneuvering was disturbing. They’ve moved way further into that direction since.
One thing I've gained from this series as a Catholic is the need for a magesterium and a hierarchy. Highlights the division on a ecclesiastical level and how human error can easily take hold once one group or persons breaks from the body of Christ. Thank God for the Catholic Church
3 C’s of Reformed Theology: Covenantal, Calvinistic (soteriology), Confessional (WCF, LBCF, etc). Great that he shared the history and lineage of the Reformed tradition, but there’s is a theology behind it.
@@Sethsters also not trying to be disrespectful, but most actual Presbyterian pastors consider LBCF Baptists to be reformed (as did the pastor in this video). Typically it’s just dissenters on the internet who say otherwise… Regardless, if you’re going to make that claim, you should provide a sound definition for “Reformed” and why Baptists are outside of that definition. Is Spurgeon not Reformed? What about John Owen? If anything, Presbyterians and Baptists have the exact same roots from the exact same time period with only differences about distinctives of covenant theology and some ecclesiology (17th-century confessional Calvinistic nonconformists in Great Britain).
I enjoyed this, and I've been sitting here contemplating for a while on how to respond. In previous videos it's been easy to keep my comments unifying in nature because they haven't touched issues that have been divisive in my own circles. Reformed theology hits home. What I've been sitting here wondering is if there even is a redeeming way to bring an objection in this format (not against this video or Presbyterians, but against a point of theology), or if it's by nature divisive to float an opinion into the open void of the internet rather than face to face. Hopefully with grace, I'd like to raise my hand as being in disagreement with the T of tulip in both Calvinist and Armenian thinking (the one point they share in common) which is more accurately defined in these systems as "total inability of the human condition to respond positively to God". I think when God tells people to repent and trust in him so they might live he is being genuine in his request, and people (though totally *contaminated* by sin) are capable of recognizing their sinful state, acknowledging their inability to save themselves and their need of salvation that can only be provided by God. Sinful people are capable at any moment of either: 1. Hardening themselves against God in their sin (a biblical truth that I believe would be meaningless if everyone is already 100% hardened against God, like a corpse from birth), or 2. Acknowledging their desperate state before God and pleading for cleansing that can only come from Him. If people are truly incapable of hearing and positively responding to God from birth, then when God makes a plea to humans he is ultimately pleading with himself to give them the irresistible/prevenient grace that would be required for a positive response. It seems in my reading of the Bible that God genuinely desires people to trust in him rather than themselves, and presupposes they have the ability to do so. God is aware that people are incapable to save themselves, but he does ask this: Only acknowledge your guilt, that you rebelled against the LORD your God... (Jeremiah 3:13) And when you do so: I acknowledged my sin to you, and I did not cover my iniquity; I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD," and you forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah (Psalm 32:5) There's my two cents. I'll not give any more debate.
Total Depravity states that each and every person (except Jesus, 1 Peter 2:22) is completely touched by sin in all that he is and does whether it’s heart, soul, mind, body, thought, or deed. However, this does not mean that all people are equally bad or that all people are as bad as they can be. Not all are murderers. Not all are adulterers. Not all cheat. Nor is it that any man is as thoroughly corrupt as it is possible for a man to be; nor that men are destitute of all moral virtues. The Scriptures recognize the fact, which experience abundantly confirms, that men, to a greater or less degree, are honest in dealings, kind in their feelings, and beneficent in their conduct. Even the heathen, the Apostle teaches us, do by nature the things of the law. They are more or less under the dominion of conscience, which approves or disapproves their moral conduct. The effect of Total Depravity on a person is his total inability to freely choose to come to Christ, trust in his Lordship, and be delivered from his sins. The unregenerate person is free to choose to do whatever he desires to do, but he will choose to act in a manner that is consistent with his sinful, fallen nature. In other words, no unbeliever left to his sinful free will, will ever choose to become a Christian. This is why there are verses in the Bible that state it is God who appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48), chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4), calls according to His purpose (2 Tim. 1:9), chooses us for salvation (2 Thess. 2:13-14), grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29), grants repentance (2 Tim. 2:24-26), causes us to be born again (1 Pet. 1:3), draws people to Himself (John 6:44,65), predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30) and adoption (Eph. 1:5) according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11), makes us born again not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13), and works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29).
@@enigmaticwonder3508 Yes, I understand the doctrine and the proof texts. I believe each of those passages makes more sense contextually without Calvinistic presuppositions.
I'm from a continental reformed church CRC in America and I've had much of the same questions as I came of age in my tradition. At first glance Calvinism seems intensely pessimistic. The theology is based off a biblical understanding of human nature aka "absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely". For example most Americans have heard the gospel multiple times and still choose to live in sin. If you've ever prayed that God would intervene in someone's salvation because of a family member who chooses the world/sin over salvation you've acknowledged Calvinism. There's many church branches that inevitably believe the same but word it differently such as Orthodox "brought from death to life by Christ".
Your approach is very “American” where the individual is culturally paramount. However, your logic means that Jesus did not need to die on the cross. If even someone dead in sin can “choose” life through salvation, you don’t need a Saviour…. It also underestimates the power and seriousness of sin. Yours is a far more optimistic view of sin than is contained in the Bible. But thank you for raising the question and I acknowledge your care in not wanting to be divisive. I hope you take my reply similarly. But as the Minister says on the video, the “T” in Tulip is a central belief. We are totally and irredeemably broken by the Fall…. It takes a miracle to change that…. That miracle was the Grace of our LORD and his substitutionary Atonement and the ONLY way that is effective is through a work of Grace towards us. We have ZERO part to play. You are suggesting you do have a part to play - what you “do” in “choosing” Jesus is being the author of your own salvation.
As an ex-JW atheist, I'm a bit remote from all this, but I find it fascinating. Calvinism creeps me out, I must say. It's the form of Christianity I'm least comfortable with.
@@thethirdjegs It teaches that God is a vile capricious monster who hates humanity. That's fair enough. But it *also* teaches that you should love this God. That's creepy. Teach one or the other, but teaching both is a setup for an abusive relationship.
I haven't got a chance to see the whole thing but there were two errors that I saw in my skimming of the clip and the second error was that the split between east and west happened in 1054 and not 1056.
And the murderer of Michael Servetus. "Whoever shall now contend that it is unjust to put heretics and blasphemers to death will knowingly and willingly incur their very guilt....Many people have accused me of such ferocious cruelty that I would like to kill again the man I have destroyed. Not only am I indifferent to their comments, but I rejoice in the fact that they spit in my face." - John Calvin
Hey have you ever thought about checking out a Messianic Synagogue growing up that is how we were raised. I've been doing a lot of thinking lately since my Mom passed last year this channel has been very helpful and interesting
That’s funny this popped up in my inbox because I was just wondering what Presbyterians believed since I had just listened to Tim Keller and he is one. Thanks!
@ Monica Uriarte Please research calvinism and reformed theology and talk to your Pastor before indulging in calvinist thought. Research "TULIP" theology" because it is VERY dangerous and 99% of Christians do not follow it. They teach that God hates people and refuses to save them, while also believing that only a few are chosen (for no reason) to believe. It is very tricky and will pull you in with books instead of scripture.
@ Monica Uriarte Please research calvinism and reformed theology and talk to your Pastor before indulging in calvinist thought. Research "TULIP" theology" because it is VERY dangerous and 99% of Christians do not follow it. They teach that God hates people and refuses to save them, while also believing that only a few are chosen (for no reason) to believe. It is very tricky and will pull you in with books instead of scripture.
@@shakazulu365 wow, Not true at all! Your whole entire statement is false. The scriptures very clearly teach the doctrines of grace. Reformed theology is biblical theology.
One of the biggest things to understand in relation to all of the various denominations is that the divisions and/or additions to the list of denominations happened when the older became more legalistic or trended into man made rules that were not found in the scriptures (aka Catholic, Eastern Orthodox). These splits were generally led by people who wanted to get back to a fundamental understanding of Christianity and who sought a renewal in their hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit. Subsequently, even these newer denominations which became what are known today as mainline denominations, became viewed as having lost their way, growing liberal or dull in their relationship to Christ. Newer groups split off from them for the same reasons. Also, the clash of Calvinistic vs Arminian doctrines also played a part these separations.
Do you really think that "Everybody" (all your viewers) have heard of the TULIP acronym? I grew up Reformed but I would have thought it was more of an "insiders" term. Maybe I'm out to lunch?
Hold up. Baptist pastor here. There is currently a fight going on among Baptists regarding the role of deacons, largely between more reformed-leaning churches who would restrict deacons from any governing authority and more 20th-century style ones who would assign broad powers to the deacons. However, a deacon board is nothing like a session in the Presbyterian church in either expression. The arguments here are more centered on things like if deacons should be controlling finances or exercising leadership authority in staff decisions. In Baptist life, the first public discipline occurs in the context of conference/business meetings, if it occurs at all. Also, I would love to have you interview a reformed style Southern Baptist like me.
Great questions asked in a loving and open manner. I was raised in the Anglican Church, so infant baptism, confirmed at 16, saved at 43 by Gods Grace, attended a baptist church when I was first saved but they kicked me out as I wouldn’t have a deep enough bath, no hard feelings but there’s serious problems with some Baptist churches as there is with some Anglican and Presbyterian churches, there’s no perfect church as I heard, best to be a Berean and do your homework on what your local church believes and where the minister is at on issues that you believe you may have to walk from to the Glory of God.
I’d love for you to read a Scott Hahn book called “The decline and fall of sacred scripture, how the Bible became a secular book.” I think it’s perspective would add something quite awesome to this series.
Woah wait?!? This is the same guy that’s on No Dumb Questions with Destin? I KNEW I recognized his voice! I used to go to church with Destin. He’s a great guy.
I always assumed, but never really verified, that the adjectives "presbyterian" ("we have elders and that's all") and "episcopal" ("we have bishops!") were used to distinguish the churches of Scotland and England at some point in the past and the names kind of stuck as the title of their denominations. How close am I?
This is right - and it's really more germane to Scotland, where they actually had a cleavage between churches on this basis. Church governance in England varied between periods of monarchy and republic, but was always enforced uniformly, so you never had a contrast between distinct episcopal versus presbyterian churches, rather just between Church and dissenters.
Hey Matt! Come visit my church here in edwardville IL, watched your last video about Presbyterianism and you were really interested in the architecture the church my church has awesome architecture and beautiful stained glass full of awesome theology!!!
I'm enjoying seeing the differences particularly between Protestants. I wonder if at some point you could post a Protestant family tree that shows which pieces are closer to other pieces and which are farther.
I think I can help and give you the cliffs notes version! Originally after the reformation, there were 3 main groups of protestants: Reformed, Lutheran, and Anglican. All other protestant groups came later or developed out of those, but those 3 are the "historic protestant" groups. Reformed led into the denominations of Presbyterian and Reformed Baptist (think Westminster Confession and London Baptist Confession), and Anglican branched out a bit as well (Episcopalian, etc). Hope that helps a little!
@@ZephramFoster Oh definitely. I was more thinking that those three branches are generally where the trees I've seen and and I think it would be good to have a more one of those that plots the evolution of more recent denominations and tends (Pentecostal, Congregationalist, etc. Etc.)
@@adambrickley9088 yeah I feel for you, I just had a quick google search and the family tree attempts seem mostly USA focussed and somewhat divorced from history (for example the Moravian brethren are one of the continuations of the Hussites and very similar (influenced by too) by the pietist movement that originated within the Lutheran tradition, that 17th century movement introduces Bible studies as we know them today).
I'm so glad that you have covered Presbyterianism/Reformed tradition! I was waiting for that one. QUESTION to anyone in the comment section: can anyone recommend me a good book on Presbyterianism, or more broadly "Reformed tradition" and "Calvinist theology" ?
John Calvin "Institutes of the Christian Religion" Herman Bavinck "Reformed Dogmatics" Geerhardus Vos "Reformed Dogmatics" Cornelius Van Til "An Introduction to Systematic Theology"
The History and Theology of Calvinism by Daniel Curt is a great place to start. The above mentioned systematic theologies and Instatutes are great to get into if you are ready for it.
Great conversation. I would say that Lutheran and Reformed differences are more significant than he posits. Also, John Calvin was a lawyer, not a priest. Overall though, great convo.
@@bluegrasskid4835 Good question, he studied civil law at Orleans. His father initially wanted him to be a priest, but then became disaffected with the Catholic Church and saw law as more advantageous for his son.
Rev. Sayler gives some crisp and clear responses, but he misspoke when he framed the OPC as beginning from a conflict between the "fundamentalists and progressivists," he should have said "fundamentalists and modernists." That was the actual nomenclature at the time.
Hope you will cover that the polity used by Presbyterians was the foundation of the way the usa 🇺🇸 set up it's original govt. Local (church) elected officials electing state officials (presbytery) whom in turn elect national officials(general assembly).
TULIP is an acronym that some (not all) Calvinists use to illustrate their view of justification. It relates to the 5 points. I know T stands for Total Depravity, L is Limited Atonement and P is Persistence of Salvation equivalent to Once Saved Always Saved.
Matt! I've been loving your videos and using them in a class I'm teaching as we learn about different denominations. We're Presbyterian Church USA and I'd love to see you do a video on our specific denomination. You do such a great job, and I would love to see what you'd find!
Any plan to balance this with a video where you visit a Presbyterian Church USA congregation? Or another Lutheran video where you visit an ELCA congregation? etc...?
Thank you for this very interesting channel. As a member of the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, and a former member of the "Southern" Presbyterian denomination which joined with the PCUSA, I can tell you our church also left because of the liberal leanings and direction of the denomination. But liberal puts if mildly. At the time of the schism, the Moderator of the General Assembly of the PCUS would not affirm the divinity of Christ. That was a deal breaker for my church and the main reason for leaving the denomination. Our church joined the Evangelical Presbyterian Church rather than the PCA like the church in this video. Both the EPC and PCA now represent the conservative, Bible-believing, and in my opinion "original" Calvinist reformed Presbyterian Church. The mainline denomination in the USA, PCUSA is a liberal, modern incarnation that is a Presbyterian Church in name only.
Speaking as a former member of the EPC, it's a mixture from conservative orthodoxy to squishy leftism. The local EPC associate pastor is too comfortable with BLM for my liking.
As a Presbyterian myself and former session elder, I enjoyed this interview much. But a couple of points. In the PCUSA which is the denomination I belong to there is a diversity of beliefs. We are united on the essential beliefs (e.g. the Trinity, justification by faith alone, etc.) but can and do have differences in the nonessential beliefs. The church I belong to is conservative but there are other churches in the denomination that have a liberal viewpoint on the nonessential beliefs. Another point is that church discipline at least in my church is extremely rare. I thought that maybe that topic may have been overemphasized in your discussion. Thanks for all you do!
I believe the Church should developing, as if a human, from baby to it's fully developed form...or like a mustard seed grows into a huge tree. Just my reflection on Jesus's teaching and The epistles explaining the Church as a body, a bride.
@Brian Farley You mean with your ESTEEMED level of education you didn't know many Calvinists and John Calvin himself drew much of his philosophy from Augustine? Seriously? In my woeful Catholic education as you must believe it is, I was taught his early reading (and in our opinion, his misinterpretation) of Augustine is how Calvin formed his theology over his life. You don't sound very educated yourself.
@Brian Farley So the one who throws out the snotty, arrogant comment "From that response, you don't sound educated" follows up to the accused uneducated person's defense that he has two graduate degrees with "If you want to throw degrees around"???? Your arrogance truly knows no limits, lol. Maybe you should try getting a degree in humility, sounds like you need it.
This is a good, thoughtful overview of the Presbyterian church. There are a ton of flavors and underlying theology involved once you dig in to the greater body of Reformed piety, practice and polity. That said, this interview was balanced and very nicely covered the important basics.
![NoCap - Yacht Party [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/rm_lvDln8kE/mqdefault.jpg)
First! Also thanks for being interested in learning about other peoples' versions of church. These are delightful to make, and I hope they make us more knowledgeable and empathetic about what others believe. This process is having that effect on me for sure.
If you want to be a part of this project you can support TMBH at www.patreon.com/TMBH
Thanks for watching and for being a delight to interact with!
Well played sir.
I see that you have a Duolingo bird sticker on the laptop. What language(s) are you working on? Personally, I rotate my study among French, Portuguese, German and Klingon.
Do you accept one-time donations?
I love this series! I’ve learned so much and you’ve made it a lot of fun!
The bible is not the Word of God. That distinction is reserved for Jesus only and it is expressed succinctly in John 1, that "the Word became flesh and dwealt among us" The Word didn't become a book. No doubt whatsoever that the Bible contains SOME of God's words easily verified via logic and prophecy. We know the Word/Logos communicated thru prophets and then they wrote it down, but the bible also contains words from Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel about things he witnessed the Word had done. King David wrote some of the scriptures and Jesus affirms that David did so "in spirit" Some of Nebuchadnezzars words are contained in the Bible regarding that which he saw God do. Nebuchadnezzar was not communicating prophecy, rather he was communicating what he witnessed. Nebuchadnezzar is not the Word, some of Nebuchadnezzars words are contained in the bible, therefore the Bible is NOT and cannot be the Word of God. That distinction and title is reserved for Jesus alone for the father loves the son and placed all things into his hands, and by him and thru him was ALL created. This isn't a liberal vs conservative distinction. Rather it is truth verifiable by use of the necessity of Logic which comes directly from the Logos. Jesus contains all the Words of the Word because he is the Word. Therefore the Bible being a finite object could never be the Word.
One thing I have gained from this series and from No Dumb Questions (Matt's other podcast) is how well he listens. How he sits and looks at the individual, how he comes well informed, ask great questions without demeaning them. I may not agree on mode/method of how each of these churches operate but man the body of Christ is a beautiful thing. Thank you Matt.
There have been so many splits in the church that most of us don't know how other groups came about.
Matt has all the hallmarks of a great minister.
One thing I've gained from this series as a Catholic is the need for a magesterium and a hierarchy.
Highlights the division on a ecclesiastical level and how human error can easily take hold once one group or persons breaks from the body of Christ.
Thank God for the Catholic Church
@@GP-dp4mr I can understand where you are coming from, but the Catholic Church is the reason these divisions exist. If not for corrupt and money hungry leadership, gross abuses of power, and let's not forget mass genocide in the name of God on no less than 9 crusades and the Spanish inquisition, there would be no division in the Church.
@@iwontliveinfear I disagree, the reformation went further than just a reaction to sins which certain clergy were involved with etc. It was an attack on the whole central theology of the mass which was the focal point of Christian worship for the last 150p years, Michael Davies does a very good job presenting the reformers views in his book Cranmers Godly Order quoting Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Cranmer etc, what you believe was needed turned out not to be a reform but a revolution, in theology which was alien from any ancient and apostolic church.
Regarding the Crusades, I believe in a just and holy war and protecting Christians world wide.
I grew up in the Reformed Presbyterian church. I appreciate the simplicity in worship and the genuine love within the fellowship of the believers. I also value that I grew up memorizing the psalms, as we used the Scottish Psalter in our worship gatherings. We did not use instruments to keep things simple, and after spending many years on modern worship teams, now I see the value in keeping things simple.
I am Presbyterian, I am part of the "Igreja Presbiteriana do Brasil" (Presbyterian Church of Brazil). Our church was founded by American missionary Reverend Ashbel Green Simonton in 1862. God bless you! 💚
God bless you❤️!!
As a Lutheran, I feel it's important to note that the differences between Lutheran theology and Reformed theology are not insignificant. Reformed often describe it as though our differences are marginal; most of us Lutherans disagree. We still see the reformed as siblings in Christ, but we are probably closer to Anglicans than we are to Presbyterians and other Calvinists.
That’s interesting. My Presbyterian seminary professors seem to think we are close to Anglicans as well. Perhaps Lutherans are on one side and we Presbys are on the other. :)
@@kimcass4440 yeah Presbyterian and other reformed are far closer to the evangelical Anglican Church because both subscribe to Westminster confessions where the Lutheran doesn’t. Chinchillainheat made a mistake
It really depends on which aspect of the church you choose to group by. For instance, in the western world, Roman Catholics, confessional Lutherans, and High Anglicans all share closer theological views on the nature of the Sacraments as well as more Episcopalian, liturgical church bodies. However, if you were to group by views on justification (particularly man’s involvement in it), Lutherans and Reformed folks are much more similar. Christianity is a very theologically diverse religion in certain regards, and even within a given branch there tends to be innumerable similarities and differences between subgroups.
@@alakazou1614 how so? You said it yourself: evangelical Anglicans tend towards the reformed end of the spectrum, where the high church (not necessarily the Anglo-Catholics) tend toward the Lutheran side. But at any rate my point is that Lutherans and Calvinists are not the close cousins that some seem to think they are.
@@kimcass4440 I agree
My favourite moments in this series is when you ask a more challenging question of the interviewee or they push back on a question or comment made. It really feels like we're getting to the meat of things in those moments and I get so excited to see how it plays out because I know both sides are going to be respectful and gracious amidst it all.
I appreciate that he probably knows most of what these people will say because he’s knowledgeable but still asks questions so he can help other people understand
I agree
Hi thanks for making these videos! I'm learning a lot! I'm catholic, I used to put all protestants in the same bag as all protestants are the same, but with your videos I'm learning to understand better the nuances of protestantism, where they're coming from and why they believe and behave the way they do. Thanks again!
The American pilgrims didn’t come over here because of the “Catholic persecution of England”. It was protestant England, C of E, who was persecuting non-Anglicans. Catholics were dying along with Quaker’s, etc.
As a Presbyterian minister myself I really appreciated hearing from a fellow Presbyterian explaining the system of doctrine and polity I know and love.
Do you resent Catholics as much as he clearly does?
I hope he resents catholic false doctrine. Straight damnable heresy.
Wow, mike and fide. Good job missing the whole point of the video, guys
@@jamyers1971 I don't care about ecumenical hand holding. There is a false gospel and a real.
The ten minute bible hour gives me the heebeegeebees the way he entertains this false religions.
@@Speakingintothevoid700 well, I wish you the best with that approach to other people. God's Grace and Peace to you, I hope you have a wonderful day today, full of Gods richest blessings.
Brother said “Discipline is part of discipleship”. That’s a word.
Matt..I learn so much from your visits. I was raised Missionary Baptist and have been around most expressions of Christianity that are predominantly African American (as a musician) but I love to learn about different expressions and theologies. Your videos have helped me articulate my beliefs in ways I've never been able to. Thank you!
Very informative. The longest "ten minutes" I've spent watching about Presbyterianism, but very informative. Thank you.
I got a huge response when I posted this on his channel, but I really would love to see you have a conversation with Fr. Casey, a Franciscan Friar. I am deeply convinced that you would have a really good and interesting time, and that it would be good for all of us to see this discussion. If not him specifically, I think visiting any of the religious orders would be very interesting.
Absolutely yes!🙌🙏
His series with Dr. Jeremy Holmes, the Roman Catholic theologian was extensive and well done.
Have you had an opportunity to watch this series???
@@HJKelley47 Yes, I very much enjoyed it, but I think Fr. Casey and Matt bring a similar energy to the discussion but with very different starting points.
@@horticulturist2338 : So you feel Fr. Casey would bring a different insight to our understanding of Roman Catholicism? In actually I was also thinking Professor Bradley Nassif, an Antiochian-Eastern Orthodox scholar, and professor at North Park University and Seminary, would also bring another layer of understanding to the Eastern Orthodox dialogue. Though I do not fellowship in either of these traditions, I have been interested to gain a deeper appreciation of Eastern Orthodoxy. Maybe we will get lucky and Matt just might do that!
@@HJKelley47 Well, I think that having a Franciscan on would be interesting, just because of the inherent interest the public writ large shows in a consecrated life. Also, I would adore the chance to see more Antiochian and Eastern Orthodox scholarship. I am very interested in it as well.
Enjoying this series very much. Looking forward to the next segment. Thanks, Matt.
This was a particularly good one. This whole series is so illuminating.
I literally one hour ago finished reading the book On Being Presbyterian by Sean Lucas for a seminary class. Great timing!
@@CRACKBONE7317 Funnily enough, I agree with you. But I had the opportunity to get a masters degree at a local seminary for 75% off tuition and decided it’s always a good time to learn about God and the Bible. It’s been an incredible experience-I might work toward an MDiv next, just without the ordination. My professors have allowed me to focus my ministry training in writing, which is a gifting of mine, rather than preaching.
in a world that keeps promoting this present moment it is important to remind us of history and roots. Thank you
Thanks brother Matt. I really enjoy this series.
As a former baptistic congregationalist who is now Presbyterian (CREC specifically) this discussion is particularly of interest. One thing I would point out is that Presbyterian polity is not the polar opposite of the RC (episcopal) polity but rather congregationalism is the opposite just as democracy is the opposite of monarchy (excluding anarchy as a choice). The original US governmental structure (now highly corrupted) was highly influenced by the Presbyterian and Puritan faith that was such a huge part of colonial American life. The American republican structure is very much like the presbyterian structure and both are fundamentally based on the theology and anthropology of these religious streams. Total depravity is a bedrock principle of both.
Looking forward to the next installment.
When you stumbled through "man, woman, humankind" all I could think of was Trudeau saying "peoplekind". I was waiting for you to say that as a joke. Great episode Matt. I had been to a Presbyterian church a few times with a friend as a kid but didn't understand how it was different than my Lutheran church. Seemed the same to my little kid brain.
Your observation about how the doctrine of total depravity is so fully integrated into PCA practice (40:42) hits home. I became a member of PCA after an extended effort to bring the outworking of my life into conformance with a holistically considered theology. So many areas of theology (that are often minimized as trivial or technical) have surprising manifestation in how the church does church and the christian does life. The PCA does a good job of putting together a complete framework that makes sense of these issues in a systematically consistent manner.
It is by the Grace of God that He showed mercy on my wretched soul. I stand by the Apostles Creed, the 5 Solas, The Westminster Confession of Faith, and The Bible.
Praise God.
I love this. I have tried reading about other Christian churches but this makes it so much more real.
I appreciate the way these are put together. These videos are for general information. Not deep theology but a wide brush stroke.
I have been super interested in the Anabaptist expressions of the church lately. I’m hoping they’re on your radar.
Thank you for posting such good material. I feel it’s done with excellence.
I really appreciate your ministry and mindset which helps us to learn about the various strands of Christian thought and practice 👍🏽🙏🏽
Thank you Matt - this is so helpful - I have spent my entire life in the evangelical Baptist church and I am considering a change to the Presbyterian church - I am learning a lot. Blessings.
Go Reformed Baptist. All the benefits of reforming, none of the baby baptizing nonsense.
@@KalebMarshallDulcimerPlayer it's covenant theology. It's all throughout scripture. Take the time to learn about it before your bash it. Infant baptism is just the OT sign of circumcision. There's no salvation for the infant. It's very different to what the Catholics do so inform yourself. It's truly biblical.
@@mandyrothkopf532 I've been in Presbyterian churches for the past 14 years. I know what it is.
@@KalebMarshallDulcimerPlayer So, why aren't you in a reformed baptist one?
This guy missed the whole Scottish part of Presbyterianians. Kind of important.
Yikes, I'm not going to make it through 45 minutes then
Yeah... John Knox didn't even get an honorable mention.
He mentioned them in the first five minutes?
@@Blargmaster-pf4bf just that the church has its origin in Scotland, not the why of it. Heck I was raised in the Presbyterian church and I don't know why Scotland. Sadly, I also know nothing of John Knox, despite one of my favorite people from my childhood church living in a place called John Knox Village.
The Great Schism was in 1054! 😃
I'm here for this comment.
Looking forward to more of your videos.
Thanks for this series, Matt!
I'm glad you dug into the church structure and how it keeps any one person from having too much power. But there is another level to it, which I think has been more important to the "mother church" in Scotland than it has in the USA: part of what Knox and his contemporaries brought to the founding of the Presbyterian church was the idea of removing barriers to each member of the congregation engaging directly with Scripture, rather than having it gatekept by an authority figure Hence his push to create a public education system in Scotland-- people can't dig into Scripture independently if they can't read it.
Also, not sure if this is true of PCA, but the Church of Scotland does have a space for internal debate over interpretation of Scripture that isn't about discipline. First, there are actually a few doctrinal stances where the official position is "we can agree to disagree" and tbh it really forces you to think hard about the positions of people who disagree with you and that's a good thing. Second, there are internal discussions where members of the congregation can participate alongside clergy and the emphasis is on being able to defend one's ideas based on a comprehensive interpretation/analysis of Scripture. I was part of the information-gathering process in the runup to the 2013 Theological Commission report; my congregation held a sort of focus group and it was simultaneously nerdy, humbling, and joyful.
Interesting historical note on Presbyterian ecclesiastical polity: it comes directly from the Fundamental Constitution of the Order of Preachers, AKA the Dominicans, and how the friars still operate within the Order. Basically, it's Medieval monastic order but with married men in the roles of the friars.
One might note that a lot of the Apostolic ecclesial order predates Feudalism and the Holy Roman Wmpire by centuries.
This is always the most interesting thing on the internet.
Love it. Would also love to hear about Calvins view on the supper. Real presence/Spiritual presence through faith may be an interesting topic as well as baptising babies and the view of the covenant.
I second this!!
We believe in the real spiritual presence of Christ in the bread and wine.
Great vid Matt thanks for doing this.
Thank you for the work you do!!!
I feel that people are attracted to the flavor of Christianity that they can understand. From there some can grow, or others lock themselves in a corner and become stagnant with their problems that they project on others who are not like them in their beliefs. I hope and think that I was able to share my thought correctly.
Again, great lesson on such a big topic (umbrella) !!!
I was born again as a young man in a Church of God (Cleveland, TN Pentecostal denomination) and later read Romans 9, understood it, then spent the next decade fighting against it by becoming an open theist variety of Arminian. I didn't embrace Reformed theology because I was attracted to it, so much as I finally surrendered to it, driving home from work, and needing to pull over my vehicle to let God break me.
I was not a consistent Christian before, nor have I been since, mainly owing to my own erroneous understanding of sanctification that I picked up from Holiness theology, and my own perfectionism (not to mention, nor minimize my sin), but I do know that I hated Reformed theology and Calvinism as soon as I discovered it, and was a virulent opponent of it.
I also recognize my subjective experience does not prove my theology nor mean I am without error, but as a general rule, I have yet to find a theology that better explains the plain meaning of Scripture in it's own words. Most of the things Calvin, Spurgeon, Sproul, Piper, etc are saying agree with the things that Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John are saying, and that consistently throughout the entirety of Scripture, not isolated texts.
This has been so helpful thank you . I'm looking into private school for my daughter and one recommended was Presbyterian.I thought it was some branch of Catholic Idk lol so anyways it had me put off but after seeing your video I can see that wasnt an accurate assumption and the value of looking into these things . you've been so helpful and the people willing to participate thank you .I still have my research to do and specific to the school itself . I just want my daughter brought up with sound theology. I was not and it caused a monumental level of deconstruction that I'm still working through . I dont want that to be her one day .
Go for the presby!!!
Go for the Presby as long as it’s not PC(USA). They are very liberal and nearly apostate - allowing homosexual marriages, women pastors, and all the rest of progressivism
I agree with ALL that Rev. Sayler says here...especially about TRUTH and "relativism."("Your truth is NOT my truth, etc.") I would join his church if I lived nearby. What he is saying truly resonates with me. Thanks for this interview.
What a gracious interview. Rev. Ethan obviously is familiar with his religious sect of the Presbyterian Church in America and is more than capable to explain and defend it. Kudos to both him and you, Matt, for another wonderful look into how some of my Christian brothers and sisters worship our one God.
Matt, a conversation between you and Sheila Gregoire from To Love Honor and Vacuum would be really interesting!
I don't mind telling you, of all the ones you've done, this has my ear. I'm amazed at how they look at God, His Word and Theology. I might have to look deeper because this really speaks.
Do it! It's worth it:)
Reformed church is it
Be careful, you may become Presbyterian like I did 🙈
They’re solid, just not sure about the baby baptism thing haha
@@aleksey6151 look up covenantal theology. It at least helps understand where they're coming from even if you disagree.
Great video! Be blessed!
I think to understand the American context of "reformed" theology and ecclesiological structures, a good video would be to dive into the dispensational evangelical movements back to the 19th Century and how they have informed and shaped the modern American Evangelical church experience. Pastor Brian Borgman of Grace Community Church in Minden, NV (I promise you, one of the greatest pastors that you've likely never heard of), has an excellent look at this issue as part of a long series he taught back in the early 2000's on church history (available on Sermon Audio). It was hugely helpful in putting all these things you raise into context. Thanks for all you do with these videos...just excellent information and discussion.
Sudden LoTR analogy and I'm here for it!
I was raised in the Presbyterian Church (USA), so this was a fascinating journey into the perspective and core values of another Presbyterian Church. Very different, and I appreciate learning more.
Great articulation of the church being the Bride of Christ. “Are you part of the same Church as …?” “We are part of the same Christ.” Amen!
I LOOVVVEEE this!!!
That was so good. God bless
Two things: Calvin was a lawyer, not a RC priest. Reformed “DNA” came from Augustin through Luther and Calvin.
Yeah, that's correct. Calvin trained for the priesthood briefly, but transferred to law school before he got ordained and was a law student when he got involved with the French reformers.
yeah its like a reverse luther haha
Is that a positive or a negative thing? I can't tell if that's supposed to prove something. I'm really asking, not being sarcastic
@@kylebailey4574 it doesn't mean anything really, sometimes people make a big deal out of it but it's relatively unimportant
@@kylebailey4574 Both positive IMHO.
As a Presby. I appreciate this program AND the others done with the catholic (lower case c) church.
Your "church" is merely an invention of man
I'd love to see a reformed Baptist, dutch Reformed, or something else in the Reformed family tree! Or maybe even an Acts29 church, where you can talk about the "New Calvinists" or the "Young, Restless and Reformed" movements of the latter decade! Love the videos, as always.
Definitely not an Acts 29 church. They’ve gone pretty woke. Plus acts 29 is just a church planting organization. Not a denomination
@@haroldbailey9011 there may be Acts 29 churches that have gone woke but it isn't woke itself
@@huwfulcher I went to the Acts29 west conference in 2018. That’s 3 years ago and even then the whole conference was centered around celebrating churches that were getting more black elders into leadership. It felt like I was at a christian affirmative action event. Praise God for elders of all ethnicities, but the forced propaganda of CRT style maneuvering was disturbing. They’ve moved way further into that direction since.
@@haroldbailey9011 you don't think more African Americans holding the office of elder is worth celebrating?
@@cjfoster4179 that was not the foundation of what we being done there. It was on par with Chandler’s “I’d rather have a black 7 than a white 8”
One thing I've gained from this series as a Catholic is the need for a magesterium and a hierarchy.
Highlights the division on a ecclesiastical level and how human error can easily take hold once one group or persons breaks from the body of Christ.
Thank God for the Catholic Church
Thank you for this video
3 C’s of Reformed Theology: Covenantal, Calvinistic (soteriology), Confessional (WCF, LBCF, etc).
Great that he shared the history and lineage of the Reformed tradition, but there’s is a theology behind it.
@@Sethsters also not trying to be disrespectful, but most actual Presbyterian pastors consider LBCF Baptists to be reformed (as did the pastor in this video). Typically it’s just dissenters on the internet who say otherwise…
Regardless, if you’re going to make that claim, you should provide a sound definition for “Reformed” and why Baptists are outside of that definition. Is Spurgeon not Reformed? What about John Owen? If anything, Presbyterians and Baptists have the exact same roots from the exact same time period with only differences about distinctives of covenant theology and some ecclesiology (17th-century confessional Calvinistic nonconformists in Great Britain).
Listening and learning 😊
I enjoyed this, and I've been sitting here contemplating for a while on how to respond. In previous videos it's been easy to keep my comments unifying in nature because they haven't touched issues that have been divisive in my own circles. Reformed theology hits home. What I've been sitting here wondering is if there even is a redeeming way to bring an objection in this format (not against this video or Presbyterians, but against a point of theology), or if it's by nature divisive to float an opinion into the open void of the internet rather than face to face.
Hopefully with grace, I'd like to raise my hand as being in disagreement with the T of tulip in both Calvinist and Armenian thinking (the one point they share in common) which is more accurately defined in these systems as "total inability of the human condition to respond positively to God". I think when God tells people to repent and trust in him so they might live he is being genuine in his request, and people (though totally *contaminated* by sin) are capable of recognizing their sinful state, acknowledging their inability to save themselves and their need of salvation that can only be provided by God. Sinful people are capable at any moment of either: 1. Hardening themselves against God in their sin (a biblical truth that I believe would be meaningless if everyone is already 100% hardened against God, like a corpse from birth), or 2. Acknowledging their desperate state before God and pleading for cleansing that can only come from Him. If people are truly incapable of hearing and positively responding to God from birth, then when God makes a plea to humans he is ultimately pleading with himself to give them the irresistible/prevenient grace that would be required for a positive response. It seems in my reading of the Bible that God genuinely desires people to trust in him rather than themselves, and presupposes they have the ability to do so.
God is aware that people are incapable to save themselves, but he does ask this:
Only acknowledge your guilt, that you rebelled against the LORD your God... (Jeremiah 3:13)
And when you do so:
I acknowledged my sin to you, and I did not cover my iniquity; I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD," and you forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah (Psalm 32:5)
There's my two cents. I'll not give any more debate.
It's simple protesters who can't validate a religious movement.
Total Depravity states that each and every person (except Jesus, 1 Peter 2:22) is completely touched by sin in all that he is and does whether it’s heart, soul, mind, body, thought, or deed. However, this does not mean that all people are equally bad or that all people are as bad as they can be. Not all are murderers. Not all are adulterers. Not all cheat. Nor is it that any man is as thoroughly corrupt as it is possible for a man to be; nor that men are destitute of all moral virtues. The Scriptures recognize the fact, which experience abundantly confirms, that men, to a greater or less degree, are honest in dealings, kind in their feelings, and beneficent in their conduct. Even the heathen, the Apostle teaches us, do by nature the things of the law. They are more or less under the dominion of conscience, which approves or disapproves their moral conduct.
The effect of Total Depravity on a person is his total inability to freely choose to come to Christ, trust in his Lordship, and be delivered from his sins. The unregenerate person is free to choose to do whatever he desires to do, but he will choose to act in a manner that is consistent with his sinful, fallen nature. In other words, no unbeliever left to his sinful free will, will ever choose to become a Christian. This is why there are verses in the Bible that state it is God who appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48), chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4), calls according to His purpose (2 Tim. 1:9), chooses us for salvation (2 Thess. 2:13-14), grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29), grants repentance (2 Tim. 2:24-26), causes us to be born again (1 Pet. 1:3), draws people to Himself (John 6:44,65), predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30) and adoption (Eph. 1:5) according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11), makes us born again not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13), and works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29).
@@enigmaticwonder3508 Yes, I understand the doctrine and the proof texts. I believe each of those passages makes more sense contextually without Calvinistic presuppositions.
I'm from a continental reformed church CRC in America and I've had much of the same questions as I came of age in my tradition.
At first glance Calvinism seems intensely pessimistic. The theology is based off a biblical understanding of human nature aka "absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely".
For example most Americans have heard the gospel multiple times and still choose to live in sin.
If you've ever prayed that God would intervene in someone's salvation because of a family member who chooses the world/sin over salvation you've acknowledged Calvinism.
There's many church branches that inevitably believe the same but word it differently such as Orthodox "brought from death to life by Christ".
Your approach is very “American” where the individual is culturally paramount. However, your logic means that Jesus did not need to die on the cross. If even someone dead in sin can “choose” life through salvation, you don’t need a Saviour…. It also underestimates the power and seriousness of sin. Yours is a far more optimistic view of sin than is contained in the Bible. But thank you for raising the question and I acknowledge your care in not wanting to be divisive. I hope you take my reply similarly. But as the Minister says on the video, the “T” in Tulip is a central belief. We are totally and irredeemably broken by the Fall…. It takes a miracle to change that…. That miracle was the Grace of our LORD and his substitutionary Atonement and the ONLY way that is effective is through a work of Grace towards us. We have ZERO part to play. You are suggesting you do have a part to play - what you “do” in “choosing” Jesus is being the author of your own salvation.
As an ex-JW atheist, I'm a bit remote from all this, but I find it fascinating. Calvinism creeps me out, I must say. It's the form of Christianity I'm least comfortable with.
Im afraid that i am intrigued and i want to probe further why you think so.
@@thethirdjegs It teaches that God is a vile capricious monster who hates humanity. That's fair enough. But it *also* teaches that you should love this God. That's creepy. Teach one or the other, but teaching both is a setup for an abusive relationship.
@@qwertyTRiG and also teaches man is responsible for the things God has decreed him to do
One error, John Calvin was never a priest. He was a lawyer.
A civil lawyer or a cannon lawyer within the Catholic Church?
His family did have a priesthood waiting for him, but he didn't take it, if I remember correctly.
I haven't got a chance to see the whole thing but there were two errors that I saw in my skimming of the clip and the second error was that the split between east and west happened in 1054 and not 1056.
And the murderer of Michael Servetus.
"Whoever shall now contend that it is unjust to put heretics and blasphemers to death will knowingly and willingly incur their very guilt....Many people have accused me of such ferocious cruelty that I would like to kill again the man I have destroyed. Not only am I indifferent to their comments, but I rejoice in the fact that they spit in my face." - John Calvin
@@bluegrasskid4835 he was a secular attorney. Never a priest. Swingli and Luther were priests.
Hey have you ever thought about checking out a Messianic Synagogue growing up that is how we were raised. I've been doing a lot of thinking lately since my Mom passed last year this channel has been very helpful and interesting
Here and thank you
That’s funny this popped up in my inbox because I was just wondering what Presbyterians believed since I had just listened to Tim Keller and he is one. Thanks!
I'm happy for the timing Monica. Hope you find it useful!
@ Monica Uriarte Please research calvinism and reformed theology and talk to your Pastor before indulging in calvinist thought. Research "TULIP" theology" because it is VERY dangerous and 99% of Christians do not follow it. They teach that God hates people and refuses to save them, while also believing that only a few are chosen (for no reason) to believe. It is very tricky and will pull you in with books instead of scripture.
@ Monica Uriarte Please research calvinism and reformed theology and talk to your Pastor before indulging in calvinist thought. Research "TULIP" theology" because it is VERY dangerous and 99% of Christians do not follow it. They teach that God hates people and refuses to save them, while also believing that only a few are chosen (for no reason) to believe. It is very tricky and will pull you in with books instead of scripture.
@@shakazulu365 wow, Not true at all! Your whole entire statement is false. The scriptures very clearly teach the doctrines of grace. Reformed theology is biblical theology.
@@shakazulu365 Everything you just said is a lie. Stop it.
One of the biggest things to understand in relation to all of the various denominations is that the divisions and/or additions to the list of denominations happened when the older became more legalistic or trended into man made rules that were not found in the scriptures (aka Catholic, Eastern Orthodox). These splits were generally led by people who wanted to get back to a fundamental understanding of Christianity and who sought a renewal in their hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit. Subsequently, even these newer denominations which became what are known today as mainline denominations, became viewed as having lost their way, growing liberal or dull in their relationship to Christ. Newer groups split off from them for the same reasons. Also, the clash of Calvinistic vs Arminian doctrines also played a part these separations.
Do you really think that "Everybody" (all your viewers) have heard of the TULIP acronym? I grew up Reformed but I would have thought it was more of an "insiders" term. Maybe I'm out to lunch?
I had never heard of it until I met a girl that went to a Reformed church, and even then not until I started researching Reformed things
Google
Southern Baptists probably talk about TULIP more than Reformed folk. 😂
In another comment he said this is what the next video is all about.
Hold up. Baptist pastor here. There is currently a fight going on among Baptists regarding the role of deacons, largely between more reformed-leaning churches who would restrict deacons from any governing authority and more 20th-century style ones who would assign broad powers to the deacons. However, a deacon board is nothing like a session in the Presbyterian church in either expression. The arguments here are more centered on things like if deacons should be controlling finances or exercising leadership authority in staff decisions. In Baptist life, the first public discipline occurs in the context of conference/business meetings, if it occurs at all.
Also, I would love to have you interview a reformed style Southern Baptist like me.
Although I have my disagreements with Presbyterianism in some areas I do really enjoy this interview and continue to learn from Presbyterians.
Great questions asked in a loving and open manner. I was raised in the Anglican Church, so infant baptism, confirmed at 16, saved at 43 by Gods Grace, attended a baptist church when I was first saved but they kicked me out as I wouldn’t have a deep enough bath, no hard feelings but there’s serious problems with some Baptist churches as there is with some Anglican and Presbyterian churches, there’s no perfect church as I heard, best to be a Berean and do your homework on what your local church believes and where the minister is at on issues that you believe you may have to walk from to the Glory of God.
I love this
I’d love for you to read a Scott Hahn book called “The decline and fall of sacred scripture, how the Bible became a secular book.” I think it’s perspective would add something quite awesome to this series.
Is that a new book (
@@thethirdjegs yes it came out this year. Great book!
Thanx, Gentlemen 🌹🌹🌹
Woah wait?!? This is the same guy that’s on No Dumb Questions with Destin? I KNEW I recognized his voice! I used to go to church with Destin. He’s a great guy.
He is indeed!
I always assumed, but never really verified, that the adjectives "presbyterian" ("we have elders and that's all") and "episcopal" ("we have bishops!") were used to distinguish the churches of Scotland and England at some point in the past and the names kind of stuck as the title of their denominations. How close am I?
This is right - and it's really more germane to Scotland, where they actually had a cleavage between churches on this basis. Church governance in England varied between periods of monarchy and republic, but was always enforced uniformly, so you never had a contrast between distinct episcopal versus presbyterian churches, rather just between Church and dissenters.
Fascinating
Hey Matt! Come visit my church here in edwardville IL, watched your last video about Presbyterianism and you were really interested in the architecture the church my church has awesome architecture and beautiful stained glass full of awesome theology!!!
you missed a really good Charlie the Unicorn meme opportunity at 40:38!
"Shun the non-believer! Shun!"
I'm enjoying seeing the differences particularly between Protestants. I wonder if at some point you could post a Protestant family tree that shows which pieces are closer to other pieces and which are farther.
I think I can help and give you the cliffs notes version! Originally after the reformation, there were 3 main groups of protestants: Reformed, Lutheran, and Anglican. All other protestant groups came later or developed out of those, but those 3 are the "historic protestant" groups. Reformed led into the denominations of Presbyterian and Reformed Baptist (think Westminster Confession and London Baptist Confession), and Anglican branched out a bit as well (Episcopalian, etc). Hope that helps a little!
@@ZephramFoster Oh definitely. I was more thinking that those three branches are generally where the trees I've seen and and I think it would be good to have a more one of those that plots the evolution of more recent denominations and tends (Pentecostal, Congregationalist, etc. Etc.)
@@ZephramFoster the fourth branch is the Anabaptists from some of Zwingli's (wayward) students.
@@adambrickley9088 yeah I feel for you, I just had a quick google search and the family tree attempts seem mostly USA focussed and somewhat divorced from history (for example the Moravian brethren are one of the continuations of the Hussites and very similar (influenced by too) by the pietist movement that originated within the Lutheran tradition, that 17th century movement introduces Bible studies as we know them today).
Ready to Harvest on RUclips will help you find a lot more detail of the origins of a denomination in a very concise manner.
I'm so glad that you have covered Presbyterianism/Reformed tradition! I was waiting for that one. QUESTION to anyone in the comment section: can anyone recommend me a good book on Presbyterianism, or more broadly "Reformed tradition" and "Calvinist theology" ?
John Calvin "Institutes of the Christian Religion"
Herman Bavinck "Reformed Dogmatics"
Geerhardus Vos "Reformed Dogmatics"
Cornelius Van Til "An Introduction to Systematic Theology"
The History and Theology of Calvinism by Daniel Curt is a great place to start. The above mentioned systematic theologies and Instatutes are great to get into if you are ready for it.
Hello Matt. I attend to a presbyterian church of Brazil.
Great conversation. I would say that Lutheran and Reformed differences are more significant than he posits. Also, John Calvin was a lawyer, not a priest. Overall though, great convo.
Was Calvin a civil lawyer or a cannon lawyer within the Catholic Church?
@@bluegrasskid4835 Good question, he studied civil law at Orleans. His father initially wanted him to be a priest, but then became disaffected with the Catholic Church and saw law as more advantageous for his son.
Rev. Sayler gives some crisp and clear responses, but he misspoke when he framed the OPC as beginning from a conflict between the "fundamentalists and progressivists," he should have said "fundamentalists and modernists." That was the actual nomenclature at the time.
Hope you will cover that the polity used by Presbyterians was the foundation of the way the usa 🇺🇸 set up it's original govt. Local (church) elected officials electing state officials (presbytery) whom in turn
elect national officials(general assembly).
Thanks for andoer amizing video
♥️ From 🇮🇱
Dear Matt, you have viewers from all over the world. We don't know what TULIP means. Keep being yourself and explaining everything 😄
The next video is all about that.
@@MattWhitmanTMBH Oh goody.
TULIP is an acronym that some (not all) Calvinists use to illustrate their view of justification. It relates to the 5 points.
I know T stands for Total Depravity, L is Limited Atonement and P is Persistence of Salvation equivalent to Once Saved Always Saved.
Nice video! The PCA HQ are located in Lawrenceville, Georgia.
Matt! I've been loving your videos and using them in a class I'm teaching as we learn about different denominations. We're Presbyterian Church USA and I'd love to see you do a video on our specific denomination. You do such a great job, and I would love to see what you'd find!
Love being apart of the CREC church 😊
Any plan to balance this with a video where you visit a Presbyterian Church USA congregation? Or another Lutheran video where you visit an ELCA congregation? etc...?
It would be nice to see more interviews with mainline Protestant churches such as PCUSA, ELCA, UCC, ABC etc.
A quick visit with PCUSA is next.
@@MattWhitmanTMBH Sweet! And keep up the good work with these wholesome interviews!
I like some of the harder questions
You fixed the audio!! 👍👍
You should do a video on the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster.
You should do one on the Free Presbyterian Church. Armen Thomassian would be a good guy to contact for this :)
YAY!
Thank you for this very interesting channel. As a member of the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, and a former member of the "Southern" Presbyterian denomination which joined with the PCUSA, I can tell you our church also left because of the liberal leanings and direction of the denomination. But liberal puts if mildly. At the time of the schism, the Moderator of the General Assembly of the PCUS would not affirm the divinity of Christ. That was a deal breaker for my church and the main reason for leaving the denomination. Our church joined the Evangelical Presbyterian Church rather than the PCA like the church in this video. Both the EPC and PCA now represent the conservative, Bible-believing, and in my opinion "original" Calvinist reformed Presbyterian Church. The mainline denomination in the USA, PCUSA is a liberal, modern incarnation that is a Presbyterian Church in name only.
Speaking as a former member of the EPC, it's a mixture from conservative orthodoxy to squishy leftism. The local EPC associate pastor is too comfortable with BLM for my liking.
@@KalebMarshallDulcimerPlayer fair enough. I can only speak from my knowledge and experience of my local EPC churches.
As a Presbyterian myself and former session elder, I enjoyed this interview much. But a couple of points. In the PCUSA which is the denomination I belong to there is a diversity of beliefs. We are united on the essential beliefs (e.g. the Trinity, justification by faith alone, etc.) but can and do have differences in the nonessential beliefs. The church I belong to is conservative but there are other churches in the denomination that have a liberal viewpoint on the nonessential beliefs. Another point is that church discipline at least in my church is extremely rare. I thought that maybe that topic may have been overemphasized in your discussion. Thanks for all you do!
Im from Northeast india🇮🇳 kulang Presbyterian Church
To add:
The word "Reformed", according to many, comes from the Augustine quote, "Semper Ecclesia Reformanda", or, "The church should always reform"
@Brian Farley Who would you say #1 is? Peter? Paul? Thomas Aquinas? Or do you mean Jesus Himself.
I believe the Church should developing, as if a human, from baby to it's fully developed form...or like a mustard seed grows into a huge tree. Just my reflection on Jesus's teaching and The epistles explaining the Church as a body, a bride.
@Brian Farley You mean with your ESTEEMED level of education you didn't know many Calvinists and John Calvin himself drew much of his philosophy from Augustine? Seriously? In my woeful Catholic education as you must believe it is, I was taught his early reading (and in our opinion, his misinterpretation) of Augustine is how Calvin formed his theology over his life. You don't sound very educated yourself.
@Brian Farley So the one who throws out the snotty, arrogant comment "From that response, you don't sound educated" follows up to the accused uneducated person's defense that he has two graduate degrees with "If you want to throw degrees around"???? Your arrogance truly knows no limits, lol. Maybe you should try getting a degree in humility, sounds like you need it.
Can Captain Disillusion breakdown the SFX of this video?
Reform church in Hungary and Prezbyterian churh in Skotland are the same church?
This is a good, thoughtful overview of the Presbyterian church. There are a ton of flavors and underlying theology involved once you dig in to the greater body of Reformed piety, practice and polity. That said, this interview was balanced and very nicely covered the important basics.